The Subtle Art of Living: Confidence, Toxicity & Modern Masculinity | Mark Manson | FO503 Raj Shamani

29:07And that doesn't last. What's one manipulation tactic you believe everybody should learn, regardless of what field they are in? It doesn't have to be just necessarily dating, but something from this world that you feel is truly, it has some merit to it? Well, there's a lot of valuable concepts in that world that you don't necessarily have to apply that way. So for example, like there's a concept called social proof, which is, and it comes from psychology. It's basically, it's just the, there's a heuristic in psychology that people tend to value something that they see other people valuing. And so if you, let's say you're walking down, you're in Beverly Hills here and you're walking past a bunch of shops and there's one store with like a hundred people standing outside trying to get in, human nature is, wow, I wonder what's in that store.

30:09I want to go in too. And we don't even think about it. It's just very instinctual. So I think like understanding the social dynamics like that is very valuable. Like it's – there's stuff like that. You know, pickup artists will use that to – I don't know. They'll like find some girl outside and pretend like it's their girlfriend to make this other girl. It's stupid, stupid stuff. But that concept I have found very valuable in my career and like networking. you know you go to you know you go to a business meeting and you you know that you have a mutual friend with the person you're you're meeting you know bring up that friend say hey I've known so and so for many many years oh he's a good guy he's a good friend I've done work with him before that's like indicating to the person that you're hoping to do business with that like you're okay right because you've got this social proof of a mutual friend so there's a bunch of stuff that's just, it can be very valuable in other areas of life, but yeah, in dating, it's not good.

31:15Does it work? The social proof thing? Doesn't it come off as in the business world or in the dating world? Doesn't it come off as showing off or trying too hard? Like imagine if I come here and we want to do business and I find out, let's say there's somebody you are following and they follow you. And then I figured out this, it's a common link. And probably I have that mutual as Well, and the moment I meet you, instead of trying to form a genuine bond and a relationship which could turn into something fruitful in business world, I bring up their name and try to just show you that, hey, I know this guy and I've done this, this, this, this.

31:56Doesn't it come off as like? It depends on how you do it, right? So, that'd be a good way to do it. Well, I think it also depends on the context and like what you want, right? So for example, like a social media following, it's social proof. And I mean, I had no idea who you are, but your team emailed my team. We looked at your accounts. It's like, okay, this guy's doing a lot of stuff. He's got a lot of fans, right? We should talk to him. Social proof is like an indicator, right? It's like we don't have time to go deep and get personal with every single person we meet. And so something like social proof, it can be like a shortcut to kind of make a decision of like, okay, this is probably worth sitting down and meeting this guy or whatever.

32:44But it depends on the context. Like that's a business context. And I think in your social life, yeah, it's annoying. Like if you get invited to a dinner party and you sit down and you just start bragging to everybody about they got all the people you know. Exactly. Name drop. You're going to sound like an asshole. So you have to be very careful about the context and what your intention is with everything. Generally speaking, I almost think of life is in two categories. There are my personal relationships that are very unconditional. So this would be romantic relationships. This would be personal friendships.

33:22This would be family. And the strictest rule for all personal relationships is it is non-transactional. I'm, I, every interaction I have with my friends or my wife or my parents or whatever, I'm never doing something to get something in return because that is, it's inauthentic, it's manipulative. Uh, and that's what protects healthy relationships in that area of my life. Then there's business and there's like just getting things done. Like if I need to, if I need to like get my passport renewed for a trip coming, I've got to go to a government office and like get something done quickly, you know, it's like, okay, now we're in transactional world.

34:07Now I'm going to pull out all of like all the levers I can pull to get this thing done. As long as I'm not hurting anybody and I'm not lying to anybody, like I'm going to lean on those things, right? Same thing in business. Same thing if I'm trying to sell something to somebody, like I'm definitely going to rely on social proof. Like I want, If somebody's got 30 seconds watching an ad, I want them to know that I know my shit and people know me, right? So you just have to be very careful about where you use these domains. And the problem with the pickup artist is that they take these tactics that work in the business world and then they apply them to their romantic relationships.

34:48And it's just a recipe for disaster. Let's call it transactional relationship. There's nothing romantic about it. Yes, exactly. Okay, give me specifics. Let's say if somebody who's watching this right now and doesn't have social media following, doesn't have enough social proof, is not privileged enough to actually have a lot of leverage, they're just good at their work. They're trying to make it big, they're starting out, they do something. Okay. If we have to put out two situations, how can they actually build social proof and use it to their advantage. A, in a business world. B, in dating world.

35:29And somebody who's just starting out doesn't have a lot of proof because social proof, the tactic of building social proof is, I believe, is more important for people who have not made it to some level yet. Yeah. Right? Like social proof is not going to be very big for you because the world knows it. It's very public out there. Somebody who's starting is going to be very difficult. Yeah. It's social proof. It compounds, right? And it, and it, so it starts small and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then, yeah, once you get to a place like we are, it's, it's just there. Like you don't have to try anymore.

36:06So early on, I, you know, I think in the business context, like this is the classic example of like, if you are very good at what you do, uh, find somebody reputable, somebody, uh, who has a lot of credit in your industry, find a way to do work for them maybe do it for free maybe offer to to volunteer intern for them do something for them to show them how good you are and then just ask them say like hey do you mind giving me a testimonial or um giving me a statement that i can put on my website or put on my social media profile or like recording like a 10 second thing just saying like i did a great job with this so that i can go show other people right and then you take that and generally if you really do do a good job, 99 % of people are going to say yes.

36:55They're going to have zero problems. So then you take that and you use that to go find other clients or other work that you can do. And then you kind of get this snowball effect going. I think in your personal life, I don't think it's something you should be intentionally trying to leverage. Social proof more just kind of happens through... I think what you would call social proof in your personal life is more just networking. It's just like meeting more people and then getting introduced to their friends, right? So it's if you, let's say like you moved here to Los Angeles, you meet a bunch of people the first few months you're here, you start getting introduced to their friends.

37:40And it turns out that like a lot of their friends are going to have, know some of the mutual people that you know, right? So it's a very natural thing when you meet a new person. And you kind of find out who you know in common and how you know them, where you know them from. And it's, again, it's not a, it doesn't have to be a manipulative tactic. Like I think in the social world, it's just kind of like, it's a way of people establishing who you are and like how they know you and that like other people know you and how they like should relate to you. But yeah, I don't think you should try to consciously leverage it.

38:15I remember there's a guy here in the US who, there's actually a few of them, but there was a guy here in the US who was a very famous influencer maybe like 10 years ago. And what he would do, he would post all this content of him and these gorgeous girls at a Lakers basketball game or on a boat with these beautiful girls in bikinis or whatever. long story short it uh turns out like these were models that he was hiring paying by the hour you know to like stand on his on a boat that he was also renting to do a video and like that's a perfect example of what not to do i mean it works in the short run and this is the same thing that's true with pickup artist stuff.

39:06It's like it works in the short run. Like if you do it well, it might work that night. It might work for a week, but at, at a certain point you're going to run out of lines and tricks and she's going to see the real you and she's not going to like it. So it's, it's because she's going to realize that she was kind of lied to. So it works, but it puts you, it's just not sustainable. Like it's not, you're not building anything that compounds over a long period of time. It works in a short term? It can. You know, in the beginning of my podcast journey, I used to do this. So what I used to do, try to make a podcast with whoever I can.

39:52And then at the end of the podcast, I used to sit down with them personally and just be like, what is your objective like what are you looking out of this i would not ask this in the beginning i would ask them in the end okay and then some would say views some would say my this opinion needs to come out some would say my positioning some would say just i did it for the fun some would say i want to turn people's perspective about me all of that and then i would say i don't know how the podcast is going to perform but if it does as per your expectation can you introduce me to someone else who can be a potential guest in your circle yeah and it worked like anything it worked so good in my favor and that's how i built my initial level of guest yeah and that's how like i would ask them i would deliver it and i would then put my whole of head my team my intention my efforts into making that podcast work in that particular way yeah and it's smart yeah and then people would actually be very nice to introduce me to some people who otherwise i would have never been able to reach yeah so that credibility of social proof and stuff like that it works but talking about the one in the dating world right there's a there's a thing or i would say a theory by rene gerard yep like he said that female desire is triangular okay right it requires another women to validate the target women want men more when other women want them interesting so do you think that's true i wouldn't be surprised yeah i wouldn't be surprised do you think that have you noticed it more women want a man because other women also want it.

41:40Or maybe a woman who she values, if that woman feels that this person is valuable, then she wants it even more. Potentially. I mean, the research, so the research on male and female sexuality is interesting because they are quite different. And female attraction is driven more by status than male attraction is. So that's why it wouldn't surprise me. It's also female attraction is more, it's more emotionally driven than male attraction. So that also wouldn't surprise me. Why is it like that? Why are women attracted more by status? So because for most of human history, like if you look at kind of evolutionarily speaking, So, most of human history, we lived in small hunter-gatherer tribes.

42:39And a hunter-gatherer tribe, it's basically women, because women are the ones that get pregnant. When you're pregnant, that's nine months where you're very vulnerable physically. You need to be protected. You could get sick. You could die. The childbirth is very difficult. And then once you have the baby, that's another two to three years of intense vulnerability. The baby is extremely vulnerable. The mother needs to always be taking care of it. So it makes sense that women evolved to become attracted to men who appear to be very reliable, very resourceful. Like, is he going to show up? And is he going to bring food home?

43:19Like, that's kind of the long and short of it. Um, and so that's the evolutionary pressure on female attraction. Men, on the other hand, the evolutionary pressure is on, uh, is basically on, on more personal fitness. Like, is she, is she capable of being a mother? Is she going to be a good mother? Is she going to be caring? Is she going to be sweet? Is she like nurturing? Um, is she, uh, you know, empathetic? um and so it's you you get male and female attractions skew in these two different directions it doesn't mean that every man is this way and every woman is this way obviously there's exceptions and and certain men and women behave very differently but as in general that's why you you kind of get these two different styles of attraction do you feel if women are just driven towards let's say more status why is it like that that more women are attracted towards really toxic men why more women they their fertility peaks there was a study in i think university of durham or something i i can't exactly remember but that most women's fertility peaks when they see dark triad traits in men?

44:43Like in the short term, they're more attracted towards narcissists, psychopaths, like all of this stuff. Do you think men, like they are more biologically driven or like attracted towards toxic men? Or it has to do something with evolution? And what is it about? I think there's a combination of explanations here. So the women aren't just attracted to status. They're attracted to the potential of status. So this is why you see a lot of women will be attracted to a man who kind of has nothing going on in his life. But if he got his shit together, it could potentially have a lot going on in his life.

45:26Like women are very drawn to that. They kind of have this sense of like, well, if I can just help him figure it out, he's going to go places. So women are also very attracted to men with great potential. And I would argue that dark triad traits are false signifiers of potential. If you think about what is a narcissist, what's a psychopath, what's a very Machiavellian person, they're very confident. They're very self-assured. They're probably very well-spoken. um they probably don't doubt themselves very much and they probably have no problem lying and telling you all the things you want to hear so it is a it is a short-term false signal of a great future status and and i think what happens is a lot of women and this is this has been my observation at least um you know a lot of women will end up in a relationship with a toxic man earlier in their life, maybe this isn't an argument for not having arranged marriage.

46:30A lot of women will end up or having more divorce rather. A lot of women will end up in a relationship with a very toxic man early when they're young and they learn that mistake. They're like, okay, he could fake it. I need to stick around long enough to make sure he's not faking it or learn how to read the signals that he's actually a dark triad type guy. And then in their second serious relationship, they figure it out. They're like, okay, I'm not going to fall for that again. So you're saying they don't fall for toxic men. They fall for fake confidence. Basically, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you look at what narcissism really is, it is fake confidence.

47:18It is – it's essentially a man who feels so bad about himself that he needs to constantly lie to himself about how great he is. And then the side effect of that line is that he appears confident to people around him. You know, it's one of the things I – I had a social media post that went viral maybe a year or two ago. I said that narcissists appear confident to people who are not confident. It's once you're confident, you can see through the narcissist and you're like, oh, that guy's faking it. But if you yourself are not confident, you are doubting yourself all the time and you're never self-assured and you come across a narcissist, you're gonna mistake it for confidence because it's on the exterior, on the surface, it's the same behavior.

48:06But the underlying intentions and motivations are completely different. But how do you differentiate then? The person with fake confidence versus real confidence. It's actually very easy. Tell them no. What do you mean by that? Disagree with them. Tell them no. Tell them they're wrong. A narcissist is not going to tolerate it. They're going to belittle you. They're going to argue with you. They're going to tell you you're stupid. They're going to refuse. A confident person will be like, oh, okay. We disagree. Let's talk about it. A confident person will change their mind. A confident person will admit they're wrong.

48:40A confident person will thank you for pointing out something they missed. A narcissist won't do any of those things.

48:51Doesn't it also mean, like can't it be a case where a confident person is also just very stubborn about their opinions and views? They're really confident. In fact, even if you look at really great leaders, though there's an argument most of them are narcissists, But few of them, if they are not, they're very stubborn about the way things are. And they are really confident. And there's enough stack of proof that, which is why they're getting confidence from. Sure. So they're not going to take a no for an answer. Well, it depends what you're challenging them on, you know? Like if you're going to challenge Steve Jobs on, you know.

49:37Design. Yeah. Yeah. Like device design. Yeah, you're probably going to, he's probably not going to listen to you. But I imagine if Steve Jobs' wife challenged him on raising their daughter, I would hope at least that he would be receptive and be like, oh, maybe you have a point. I will say this. Genuinely confident people will not feel a need to belittle you. They won't feel a need to control you. right a narcissist needs to control the people around them because it's it's they can't accept themselves yeah you know the their their self-image being challenged or destroyed so they have to control the people around them to maintain their self-image a confident person doesn't feel no need to control you it's like oh we disagree we disagree about the Indian article.

50:32Yeah. Cool.

50:37Yeah, we do. You know, it's funny though. I was thinking about this when you, when we were talking about the community and the family stuff, and maybe this is probably something I missed because I, when I wrote it, I really thought I was being more balanced. And I think the thing that I was being very well balanced, because the things in that article and my memories from that trip that are like very, very positive had to do with, I was absolutely blown away by the level of hospitality and friendliness of the Indians that I met. Like the, some of the people that I met and stayed with and, and traveled with were like so much kinder than almost anywhere else I had ever traveled.

51:24but it's funny like i just it just occurred to me because i wrote that in that i wrote that into the article but as an indian you probably read that and you're like well of course like that's normal to you yeah so it probably didn't stand out as a positive thing it's just like oh yeah this indian guy was being a normal indian guy and whereas for an american you're like wow he did that for you that's amazing well thank you for emphasizing on that now but yeah it's it the hospitality and friendliness and believing that guest is god yeah it comes so natural that we think like it's not even like it's not even a big deal yeah like like why are you even pointing out this thing yeah like this is what you're supposed to do that that it's funny that just occurred to me now uh i remember in that article because i wrote about the first place i stayed in New Delhi, the manager of the hostel personally cooked a dinner for me, like my fourth or fifth night there, personally cooked it for me.

52:34And I was so shocked. I was like, this has never happened in my entire life. I was like, holy crap. But yeah, it's funny because To an American, that's incredible. Cooking dinner for you is the most normal thing you can see in India. If he wouldn't have cooked dinner for you, I would be surprised. That's so funny. That's the thing. But coming back to a conversation of men and women, when women have learned their lesson early on in their life, that toxic men and this confidence is just a mask for the real narcissistic personality or just like this person is bad for them. Yeah. Why do they keep falling for it again and again?

53:23Well, I think there's two types of women. So there are the women who learn from the mistake and then I think the women who don't. And my guess is there's two reasons that they don't learn from it. But the first one is that they probably, part of it is they've never been around a male with a healthy level of confidence. Like they've probably only been around men, unconfident or narcissistic men. So they think it's normal. They think every man is like this. And then I think the second thing, and this is the unfortunate thing, is that a toxic relationship is very exciting, unfortunately. It's very dramatic.

54:07The emotional highs are very high. The emotional lows are very low. And there's a certain addictiveness to it. And it's you feel when you're in the middle of it, you feel so alive, right? Even when this person is treating you like crap, even when you're miserable half the days, the other half the days you're so in love and excited and emotional that you just kind of ride this roller coaster up and down. And I think there's something intoxicating about that. Like the same way people get hooked on alcohol or a drug, I think people can get hooked on toxic relationships. They can become addicted to them.

54:52And so I think women or anybody, because men do this too, but women who keep falling for toxic men over and over again, part of it is that they've just never really been exposed to a healthy man. But part of it too is that there's probably some sort of addictive quality going on. Like it's that they're having trouble pulling themselves away from it. They get somewhat dependent on that highs and lows. Yeah. Does it happen often? I think so. I mean, I see it in my line of work. I see it all the time. I see it with men too. Men, it looks different with men though. Like with men, it's more – men will subject themselves to like horrible treatment, not because the woman's – well, usually she is narcissist.

55:50But men will subject themselves to it usually because it's – she's beautiful. The sex is great. You know, he feels really admired, you know, by having such a beautiful woman with him. um but also like men also get addicted to that roller coaster right of just every day is either a disaster or the best day on earth and you ride that roller coaster up and down and yeah yeah you know you said something earlier do you think that can also be the reason for this you said a lot of under confident and really people with low self-esteem find this confidence and they're attracted towards it so under confident people are attracted towards toxic and narcissistic men somewhat you said i'm just paraphrasing it yeah do you think it can also be a reason that people or like women or men keep falling for toxic people because they love some sort of victimization they have this some kind of victimized mindset they get addicted to just being the victim they love this identity about themselves subconsciously I think there are definitely people who do fall into that.

57:03There's something a little bit like sometimes it feels empowering to feel like you're a victim, as paradoxical as that is. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure it happens. And do you feel that we're designed in such a way that we love chaos? Our brain loves chaos, and that's why most relationships are failing today. I feel like the ones we hear about are failing. That's the funny thing is like a healthy relationship is often very boring, right? You don't, it doesn't, it's not going to make the news, you know, it's a happy couple is just like quietly reading a book together. Whereas an unhappy couple is like throwing the dishes and like slamming doors and screaming at each other.

57:53So I do think some people, I don't think it's that some people like chaos. I think it's that some people are, their internal life is already emotionally chaotic. And so that manifests itself in their relationships. but more people are not driven towards excitement and chaos and all like nice things and that's a roller coaster is it not like that more people i mean some people if the question is do i think things are getting worse i i don't know that they are um what i'm noticing or and what the at least here in the u.s what the statistics are suggesting is that fewer people are getting into relationships but the ones that are getting into seem to be healthier and more sustainable.

58:51So I think a lot of that is just people are getting educated and understanding what's good for them and what's bad for them. That's the good news. The bad news is just that fewer people are getting married. They're getting married later. They're dating less. So it's a mixed story. But the question was more people who are failing out, who have failed relationships. Do you think their relationship is failing because they chase excitement and they're not okay with the boring life? I think, I don't know how it is in Indian culture, but I think a mistake that a lot of people make in Western culture is they mistake the excitement for romance.

59:38They think romance has to be exciting and dramatic. And the truth is that romance can actually be very peaceful. It can be calm. It can be quiet. It can be boring. And so I think a lot of people, again, people who grow up without, maybe their parents weren't very functional, so they never had good role models. you know the the people that they've dated when they were young were not healthy people the relationships were toxic they grew up with this idea that it's just like romance has to be this this roller coaster of emotions all the time i'm sure movies tv doesn't help either it's i know for me personally like i had this very disney idea of romance and what a relationship was until I was probably in my early 20s.

1:00:36It was just very naive. It's not realistic. It's not like that at all. But wait, explain me. Boring romance and exciting romance. What do you mean by both of that?

1:00:53There is something very romantic. Like if you think about like a romance movie, right? There's usually something, a very dramatic action. There's a lot of tension. There's conflict. And that's what generates the intense feeling of closeness between the two people. But you don't have to have all this tension and conflict to generate a sense of closeness. you can just be intensely present with each other. And it's not a sexy thing. It's not an exciting thing. Nobody's going to go viral being like, hey, sit quietly and read a book together on a Saturday and feel romance. But it is there. And if you do build that relationship with somebody and have that trust and that intimacy and just that simple pleasure of being in each other's presence, you can experience it.

1:01:51And it's crazy because I, I literally didn't experience it until I was probably 30, you know, like all of my young relationships were very, yeah, chaotic, crazy drama, you know? Uh, and then I met my wife at 28 and, and once we had been together for a few years, I, I, we start, I started having this experience for the first time in my life where I could literally just be sitting in the same room with her and feel like an intense connection and love for her. And I remember just being like, wow, this is possible. Like we don't have to scream at each other to feel this. Who knew? Do you think more women like vulnerable partners who are in touch with emotions and try to build their intimate relationship or the ones who showed dominance?

1:02:44I don't think those are exclusive. This is one thing I talk about in my dating book from ages ago. Models. Models, yeah. So most men associate vulnerability with weakness. They associate vulnerability with crying and complaining and talking about how awful things are. That is one form of vulnerability, but that's not all of vulnerability. If you think about it, it's like what is emotional vulnerability? Emotional vulnerability is simply opening yourself up to being rejected in some way. And so there are very masculine and dominant ways to make yourself vulnerable, right? If you think about going to war, that's a form of vulnerability.

1:03:38If you think about getting in a boxing ring to fight, that's a form of vulnerability. It's anytime you put yourself in a situation where you could be embarrassed, experience failure, be ridiculed, and be rejected, it's a form of vulnerability. So you can still be vulnerable as a man without being all weepy and sad and emotional. And I think for me, this was a very profound realization and it really changed my relationships deeply. When I realized that I can express my emotions and still take responsibility for them and own them and be okay if that rejection comes, right? So I can go to my wife and say, hey, I've been really upset lately and this is why.

1:04:30I'd appreciate it if you didn't do this anymore. that's a form of vulnerability and in no way am i being passive or weak or like you know being weepy or complaining or whatever it's in and i guarantee it's not like she's not going to lose any attraction for me like it's you can state what you can state the things that you feel and the things that you want in a way that's vulnerable and also um masculine and dominant so um Um, it's, I think that's a key thing that men miss and, and, uh, and I think it's extremely important because when men don't express what they think and feel and they, when they don't express what they like and don't like, women have no idea.

1:05:19And, and they, they're either left to just guess or they assume you don't care. Yeah. And either way, like it's not going to go well. Right. Whereas if you can actually express how you feel and what you think and what you want and do it in a way from a place of confidence of being very self-assured, it's incredibly attractive. That's a beautiful way to explain vulnerability. I like it. But I also believe on a similar line that what women really love is not either or. It's not dominance or vulnerability. yeah i think they love contextual competence they love when a man who is standing up and it's strong and shows dominance when it's needed for the outside world so that she can feel more protected and safe and she can rely on this person and at the same time otherwise can be vulnerable in touch with his emotions and is open to share certain things and weak emotions at the same time so that she feel that he's connecting with me on a deeper level and there's enough intimacy.

1:06:28So men who do both and contextually just change their certain projection of, let's say, dominance or vulnerability, I think they are the most attractive ones. And that's what women find really good. Most people get confused because in the temporary world, dominance gets rewarded. But for a long term relationship, vulnerability is equally important. I agree 100%. I think that's a great way of putting it. And I would agree with you too that the external dominance, I think that piece has to come first. Like she needs to feel safe with you first for her to be willing to accept you being weak in moments.

1:07:09You know, there's a thing on the internet and in reality as well. It's such a funny sentence. Like I just corrected myself. because most people believe in this, that nice guys finish last. What do you think? What's one brutal truth nice guys need to hear that just being nice is not enough?

1:07:37I think the brutal truth that nice guys need to hear, being a nice guy is not actually nice because a nice guy is usually being nice with conditions. he's being nice because he thinks it's going to get him something. He's being nice because he thinks that if he says and does the right things for the women around them, that he'll finally get the affection and love that he craves. But the thing is, is like women, women are not dumb. They sense this, they can smell it. And so they are, they're immediately turned off by it. And it's generally, it's every, every guy who complains about, oh, I'm so nice.

1:08:17I do all these things for women and none of them appreciate me. It's like, no, you're not doing that. You're not doing those things for the women. You're doing them. You're doing those things to get something. And that's not nice. It's manipulative. I used to always tell my, my guy clients, I used to always say, don't be a nice guy, be a good guy. And sometimes being a good guy means being saying things that people don't like hearing. Right. And I think not just women, but people respect that. Right. If you're willing to say something that they don't like hearing, but they know you're being honest, they know it's the truth, they know you believe in it, and they know that you're okay disagreeing, that is way more attractive than saying all the nice things and doing all the nice things.

1:09:05I also feel most of the people who rely on this thing that nice guys finish last, they're trying to hide their incompetency in some way. And what I mean by this is, if you're a nice guy with low status, low value as a man, low competency and desperate, then you're a loser. Accept it. Like when you are a person of high value and you've worked on yourself a lot and there's enough proof for yourself and for the world that you are of some value and then you're nice, then I don't think you finish last. You finish last when you're an absolute loser. And what I mean by loser is you're not working on yourself.

1:09:49You're just desperate. You're not on your body, not on your work, not on your purpose, not on your social skills. You're just being like, hey, I'm a nice guy. Yeah, but with low value and low status. And that's why most of the time they face trouble. And they try to make up for all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of, a lot of men who desperately crave the approval of women, they do it because they haven't invested in themselves. Like they're covering up the lack that they feel for themselves. Whereas it's, and I used to run into this with clients too. I used to tell them, I'd be like, dude, just get a life.

1:10:29Like, like, dude, just get a decent job. And like, I don't know, an apartment. And you're probably halfway there. But it's like you have literally nothing going on in your life right now. So of course, she's not going to be attracted to you.

1:10:47Here's a follow-up question to that. A lot of men who are high value and they've achieved something professionally, even they are not able to get a nice partner. Why? They're high achievers. Right. I think then it's – so in my dating book, I break it down into three different categories. So there's basically lifestyle, having your life and your identity together. There is communication skills. And then there's taking action. And like all three of those things are necessary, but none of them are sufficient by themselves. So what you just described, a guy has a great career. you know let's say he's a doctor or um a really successful lawyer or something he works all the time um but he's never taken action he's never like actually put in the time to date women or go meet women and when he does meet them he has no idea how to talk to them he's completely awkward he doesn't know how to say what he feels or what he wants uh so of course he gets no results similarly you you get these guys who take tons of action but they have no idea this is the classic pickup artists.

1:11:58It's like tons and tons of action, going out, meeting women all the time, but horrible communication skills and no life. Right. So it's like, that's not going to get you very far. You need, you need all three. You need like, you need to have a strong identity yourself. You need to have worked on yourself, feel good about yourself. Then you need to know how to communicate that life to somebody. Like, this is who I am. This is what I believe in. This is what I care about. This is what I like. This is what I don't like. And then you need to actually like, go out and do something. You can't just sit around and hope that women magically notice how amazing you are.

1:12:29You have to go present yourself. Do you think that a lot of people, a lot of women have figured out that a lot of men are not good with this triangle? I think women are very aware. And because of that, they have started, though, they started playing this game way better. And what I mean by this is a lot of women have understood that their performance of desirability will help them monetize a lot without even actually putting in the effort to go out on date and do certain things and that's why they're playing this game better if I if I want you if I want me to elaborate then think about let's say OnlyFans right if you look at OnlyFans it has made women a potential commodity and a lot of men a potential customer.

1:13:23And a lot of women have understood that. And now everybody's just performing. I mean, it formalizes those transactional relationships we were talking about before.

1:13:39I think that OnlyFans and men who are addicted to porn, it's a case of a very noticeable minority of each, right? So it seems like tons and tons of women are on OnlyFans and tons and tons of men are on porn, like watching porn all day, but it's probably just a very noticeable minority of each. Really? Isn't it growing like day by day, year on year, or like a lot by percentages? I don't have stats for it, but I've heard that the number is going crazy because of billions of dollars getting transacted there. So minority want people to drive that amount of transaction. I mean, if you think about, like, even let's say, okay, if there's billions of dollars, let's say each person is spending, each guy is spending a couple hundred dollars.

1:14:31That's what? A million men worldwide? A couple million, a few million men? Like, out of eight, four billion men in the world, you know, a few million are spending that much money on OnlyFans. So like - That's not like a lot. Yeah, it sounds like a lot, but then proportionally. It's funny, you said the thing about the internet and real life earlier. I actually think that's a really important thing because I notice this all the time too, where I'll spend a bunch of time on Instagram and X, and I'll start getting really upset or thinking about the world is a certain way. And then I'll go spend a weekend with my friends or like go back home to Texas and see my family.

1:15:18And I'm like, oh, everybody's normal. But do you think that might be a minority? I don't think so. There are like about more than 300 million registered users on OnlyFans and more than 3.2 million content creators. Okay. On OnlyFans. Yeah. That's like a big number. Yeah. It's like a huge number. and more and more people are falling for this because here's what I feel more women and men both in their own ways have figured out that if they just perform certain aspects of desirability then they're going to get they're going to be desired women a lot of women do this by showing off their sexuality a lot of men do that by showing off their toys or like watches and cars and they feel it makes them high status and more women actually would chase them sure And they're not working internally.

1:16:11They're not working on themselves. They're just working on showing off that new watch. Maybe that's making them broke, but who cares? And same goes with women. They're just working on maybe not working on their internal self. They've figured out that this gets them independence or a couple of bucks. So they're showing off their sexuality in making. And more and more people, like this number is growing. I would like to point out though. Okay, let me play devil's advocate here. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to point out that this isn't like, yes, if you look at OnlyFans in a vacuum, okay, it's growing massive numbers.

1:16:48But if you, and again, I don't know any of the statistics behind this, but I'm just going to make assumptions. If you look at say the worldwide sex working market, right? Prostitution, strip clubs, whatever. And you look at how many men frequented those, how many women worked in those industries. I imagine that that overall number is probably not growing dramatically. Like you're probably just the same way Spotify replaced buying CDs or Netflix replaced going to the movie theater. Uh, only fans is replacing going to the brothel for a lot of men. Really? Do you disagree? I don't know.

1:17:41Because my assumption would be that in terms of percentage of population, let's just talk about that. That if out of 100 people, 5 are going to strip clubs and brothels and all stuff like that. I think out of 100, and this is just an assumption, maybe 10 are going online. So the percentage has grown because it's more convenient, it's easier, it's less effort. it's like cheap dopamine and dopamine which comes without rewards it gets more addictive yeah and then it's just society is valuing some sign some sort of signal so they do it more and more people fall into it so my problem is not that are there enough people today yeah which is a problem but the bigger problem is more people are getting lured toward this world And forget just one platform.

1:18:34It's happening across all social media platforms where more men are showing off certain things and more women are showing off certain things without actually working on internally something. I look, I agree with you.

1:18:50I agree with you. I think it's the, I guess the only thing I'm nitpicking at is the extent of the problem. I personally think that like, look, the algorithms reward bad behavior. And so bad behavior gets broadcast more. It's like the point I made earlier, like a healthy relationship is boring and you never hear about it because it's boring. But every bad relationship is very exciting and very interesting. And so people gossip about it all the time. So it feels like everybody's relationship is bad. And I think the internet has just created that dynamic for everything around the world. It's like, it feels like everything is always going wrong because that's what gets broadcasted.

1:19:42That's what people click on. That's what people scroll and watch. And, and so you get this, this effect where like the most extreme 1 % of the population is broadcast to the other 99%. And then the 99 % starts believing that that 1 % is normal. And when really it's just this loud minority. Fair. And because that minority is loud, that one becomes two, two becomes three, and three becomes four. And that's - Potentially. Like if more people are going to believe that impression management in some ways way more important than working on their identity. It's going to be problematic. Do you think people are moving towards that?

1:20:23More people care about how they appear in the world? It can be either looks for a lot of women or it can be power and wealth for a lot of men. Yes. It's interesting. There might be a cultural thing here. This is actually interesting because I agree with you. I agree with everything you're saying, 100%. But I don't feel like it's a huge problem. Like there are apps for some people. Yes, absolutely. Like there there's an, and I come across them periodically that, you know, you go to their Instagram account and you're just like, Oh, okay. Okay. I see. Uh, I see what's happening. Um, but I, to me, it's not, it's not a pervasive thing.

1:21:06And it, it is something that you see occasionally, but like, I'm just kind of like, whatever. And I feel like most of at least my friends or the people that I hang out with, like we're kind of aware of the game now. Yeah. You know, so it's like people know when you're just kind of bullshitting on social media or when you're like kind of posting fake stuff. Um, and, and I guess we like, I feel like maybe my generation and younger, like they don't take it as seriously. But that said, like I, in, in Western culture, there's a, there's a very, uh, there's a very awkward relationship with showing off yourself or showing off wealth.

1:21:55Like it's, it's seen, sometimes it's seen in bad taste. Like if I, like if I created an Instagram reel today bragging about how much money I've made, my audience would fucking hate it. Yeah. Mine would too. Okay. Okay. So I don't know. Maybe it's more - I don't think it's Western culture versus Eastern because I believe there are more Western influencers who show off than Eastern influencers. Interesting. Like, look at it. Like the biggest influencers who have built their entire cult and following just on show off. Yeah. You can name it like this. Andrew Tate. There's Dan Bilzerian. There's the one you named.

1:22:38It's like, you can just go on. Yeah. And they show off way more cars. Like what's your, what's the color of your Bugatti became a thing. How many girls do you have became a thing. Yeah. Yachts and the money and the watches. And like, this is all European and American. It's just getting shoved down all around the world. So it's, I don't think it's, it's about. in the West world, people look down on them. I think few people look down on them. Maybe. Or maybe just, yeah, maybe. I don't know. Or just people who, like maybe more people look down on them, but they don't talk about it online. Yeah, maybe.

1:23:14So it's interesting you brought up Dan Bilzerian and Andrew Tate, because I have yet to meet a single person in real life who likes those guys. And I've actually wondered for a long time. I'm like, who follows these guys? Like, I'm like, where did this guy is like 20 million followers? Like who is following this guy? Like, I don't understand who, where do these people come from? Uh, so I, yeah, I don't know. Maybe you're, maybe you're right. Uh, but it is, it is a very good point. Um, I don't know. I, I try not to, uh, uh,

1:23:51and maybe I'm naive, but I, I try not to over index on like what's happening on social media. I just, I feel like it's, it's an alternate universe. It's you're, you're hearing most of the time, maybe not all the time. Most of the time you're hearing a very loud minority. And I think most people are saying, and they're like more and more, and there's recent data showing this, more and more people are just turning off their phones. Like they're just not even logging on anymore. So. It can be true. And I hope this is true. I hope that more people are sane than people who are loud and following these kinds of people.

1:24:34And I don't have any statistical data either. I have enough anecdotal evidence around men specifically younger men under 30 yeah who have spoken to very briefly time and again all around the world and more people are liking this kind of approach then they like probably my approach or your approach yeah and it's just it's it's worrying so you tell me you you read you read human behavior you like all of this yeah and you've been through the game as well yeah so your audience would hate it if you become a show-off and you become that kind of person right extra alpha and then abusing and being extremely toxic so your audience and my audience let's think they are the minority at this point yeah because the other ones which we name they are following their following is much bigger and larger than us why do people follow them.

1:25:31Why all of a sudden so many men are agreeing with these kind of opinions? They are sharing, reposting, liking, commenting. Because not, even if some of it is manufactured, I don't think all of it is manufactured. It's definitely not all manufactured, but I don't know. I feel like some of it's got to be like,

1:25:56have you ever like hate followed somebody?

1:26:02No, I would love to. No, I haven't. But I don't know. Like, for example, like, I remember I followed Dan Bilzerian for a brief period. And it was mostly just to be like, just to be disgusted, just to see what he was going to do next. I do think there's something in human nature that we are mesmerized by the things that we find gross and distasteful. Again, maybe I'm being naive. Maybe I'm completely out to lunch thinking that a large percentage of Andrew Tate's following or Dan Bilzerian's following just finds it detestable but is also just kind of like, wow, look at this guy. Um, but yeah, I don't know.

1:26:57I, I will also say you and I like people with people who are respectful and respectable. Um, we have a lot more competition, right? Because there's a lot of podcasts that people can listen to with somebody who's like not telling them, uh, to go spend all their money on a Lamborghini or whatever. Um, whereas like there's really only a couple Andrew Tates. What do you think? What's your wildest assumption? Why would people follow them? Like the people who genuinely look up to them? I think it's deep insecurity. I think it's a very, it's probably young men with a very deep insecurity and who are so desperate to feel status and empowerment that they are basically right off every ethical guideline that they would normally ascribe to.

1:28:02That's the only explanation I can think of is that they are so like wounded and hurt that they need to vicariously live through one of these guys to feel empowered. I also think there's probably a large percentage of dark triad people who see somebody like Tate as like a role model, right? So if you're a little bit of a sociopath, you're probably going to be very impressed by a public sociopath who shamelessly lives that way. You know, here's my guess. I can be wrong. I feel a lot of people follow them because as men we've been taught since the beginning that you'll be respected when you achieve something you'll be respected when you have a great body you'll be respected when you have a great car or a great house or you'll be successful in your career and when you have those socially tangible things to to show off or like just which are like visibly seen yeah so since the beginning since childhood you've been told that and nobody wants to hear about your emotions or what you're going through or your problems or the chaos or the depression loneliness or whatever the complaints that you have nobody wants to listen about that so you've been just taught that and majority men are not able to achieve that very early on in their life so the men who have not achieved who are like probably under 35 ish who have not discovered themselves yeah and also have not achieved anything significant in their career because it's just too early on for them they find it interesting to follow these guys because they all of a sudden feel like oh somebody's talking about our problems and they want to follow this role model who has gotten it all probably a good body and like a lot of girls and like cars and stuff like that and is vocally talking about the problems which men go through early on so they feel like finally we have someone to look up to we have finally somebody who gets us so now they're like they're they're confused by looking at their things and just following someone blindly because they feel like somebody gets us.

1:30:23I feel like it has to be more than that. I would take everything you just said. I think that's probably true, but I think that's not sufficient because what you just described, I think is what the majority of young men experience. And yeah, the majority of young men are frustrated at some point. I was when I was young, I'm sure you were as well. And you do look for role models, but let's, let's, let's stick with Andrew Tate. Cause on honestly, Dan Bilzerian's kind of an idiot and all of his content was fake. So it's, let's stick with Andrew Tate because I actually think it takes the more interesting example too, because Bilzerian, like Bilzerian didn't have no thoughts.

1:31:07He had no original thought. He wasn't trying to teach you anything. He wasn't trying to convince you of anything. He just wanted you to be jealous of like his yacht and the girls on it. And whereas Tate is actually, he has a message and he has a purpose. And clearly that message is appealing to a lot of young men. The message is so, it's very antisocial. It's very destructive. And I don't think you come to a, like that message is not going to appeal to you unless there's something you've experienced that makes you extremely angry. You've been hurt in some way. You feel like you've been cheated in some way.

1:31:51You could have had your heart broken. You could have had somebody stole something from you. Maybe you were wrongly accused of something at your job and you lost your career. Something went wrong because his message is only going to make sense to somebody who's in a lot of pain and needs to make sense of that pain, I think. Like I don't think anybody who's just like has a healthy level of frustration is gonna listen to some of the stuff he says and be like, yeah, you know? Like it just, it's too extreme. It's like way too dark. That would be, that's my sense. Like I don't see how a guy appeals.

1:32:33I don't see how a guy like that appeals to anybody who is uh is like stable or healthy in any anyway i believe this is like they're playing on sociology like social psychology in some way the way to get the easiest like the most dumbed down explanation of building a cult blind like following is you list on number of problems which majority is going through or maybe minorities going through like number of people you label it and make it that you're the victim and then you give a reason that this is why you're victim so you make that reason is an enemy yeah so this is what these guys did they named number of insecurities mastered as victim and then made women the enemy yeah so just like okay one gender is enemy yeah all the problem that you're going through is because if this enemy yeah so then now just there's no solution there's nothing you just shit talk and you talk and you talk and that's how you build blind following and that's what these guys are doing really well yeah it makes sense to me do you think a lot of people use it to their advantage this psychology the that so victim and enemy?

1:33:52Oh yeah. I mean, just look at politics. That's, that's like half of politics. I mean, it here, it definitely is here in the U S I assume it is in India as well.

1:34:06Yeah. I mean, nothing, nothing binds people together more than a common enemy. Like I think that's just human nature. Yeah. And it, it, and that evolved for a very good reason, but I think it can also be abused for power very easily true you know one common enemy for men is not being able to express that should be the real enemy that is something we all need to fight come together because men account for 79 of suicides yeah one out of five men say that they're lonely they're they're depressed because of loneliness in some sort of way maybe minor or like like a strong depression yeah and even doctors in some countries are more likely to tell man to man up than to actually go to therapy yeah right in in some places not all right how do people deal with this yeah like how do men break this whole thing how do they understand male pain and then like what do we do with this society like how do you how do you make it normal you understand male pen male pain much better you've gone through it yourself you talk about it of course and now your whole purpose is to actually get more men together to feel less of this pain yeah i do think it it starts at a cultural level okay and i i do think I actually think that the work that you and I and a lot of other podcasters, YouTubers, I think it's very important that young men have somebody that they can look at and see and see like a healthy version of processing pain, expressing emotion, talking about feelings, talking about personal growth, like thinking about these subjects.

1:36:06um you know i i definitely grew up in a in an environment where none of the men around me were expressing these things or talking about these things uh i had to learn it the hard way and go make a lot of mistakes and go to a lot of therapy um to kind of figure a lot of this out myself. And I think the, the best thing we can do is just through our role in the culture, normalize it and make it, you know, make it so that the young men listening to this, like, feel like it's normal and okay to think about these things and talk about these things. but why do you feel society, they would rather see dead men than vulnerable ones?

1:36:55Why do they do it? Because the number of suicides and deaths are just increasing and still people want a lot of people to just man up. Why do you think this, how did this become even a thing? Well, I think it was always the thing, right? Because historically the role of men in society was protect or provider, right? Like nobody wanted to hear about your feelings. It's like we're about to be invaded. Like, I don't give a shit about your feelings. Five of our eight kids died. Like, I don't care about your feelings. Like, that's most of human history. But now, now it's not like the case. We still don't actually reward these men.

1:37:33No, I know. But it's, I think there's just a lot of cultural inertia that is drifted through generations. Like if, if I look at my, my father's generation and my grandfather's generation, uh, like I remember my dad told me, uh, so like I grew up frustrated with my father for not emoting enough and telling me what he thought or felt enough, or maybe showing appreciation for me enough. Um, but I remember talking to my dad once and he said that, um, that my grandfather didn't hug him until my dad was 50 years old. And I was like, holy shit, that's like a whole nother level of man up, right? And I can't even imagine what my great-grandfather was like, right?

1:38:29So - You would not know the concept of hugging. Yeah, yeah. It'd be like, get away from me. Stop touching me. So it's like every generation does work and makes progress, but it's not, you know, we, we're only aware of our generation's work and progress. And, uh, and so it's easy to lose sight of like the long-term trajectory of everything. I do think it's getting better. I just think it's, it's also very confusing to be a man these days, because on the one hand, that classic role of protected provider, it's not relevant for most of us. Like I imagine you're not protecting anybody on a day-to-day basis.

1:39:10I'm definitely not like life's pretty easy these days, uh, compared to 500 years ago. So it's, it's, but it's confusing because ultimately like men are different than women and we do have different emotional needs and we do have different cultural expectations. And so like, it's hard to navigate and really understand what we should be doing. But I do think when you look at mental health, when you look at male psychology, and when you look at just having good relationships, I mean, another stat is that interestingly, when men get married, their happiness increases significantly more than women when they get married.

1:39:56And most people don't know that. And when men get divorced, their happiness decreases significantly more than women's happiness. Like it's good relationships are absolutely key to men's mental and emotional health. And if you don't build these skills, you're not going to have good relationships. And like it or not, the world has changed. Like Andrew Tate is living in medieval times, essentially. Like he's like stuck in the 13th century. And it's, we're not going back. Like it's the world is too different. It's the changes have already happened. So like we need to adapt and find new ways to doing things.

1:40:43But why do you think even men don't respect other men who are like always complaining and crying or maybe showing and expressing? Even not always. Yeah. Even sometimes when men are showing their emotions, most men don't even respect them. Yeah. They shut them up and be like, stop being a baby. Stop being a woman. and stop being all of that bullshit, whatever. Well, it's probably because they haven't allowed themselves to feel those things. I don't know about you, but I've noticed in my adult life,

1:41:16when I meet men, like if I meet a man who's not very self-aware or not aware of their own emotions or can't really express themselves, I find that I just kind of don't become friends with them. And it's not intentional. It's not like I hate them or don't like them or whatever. It's just like, I don't know how to be friends with a guy like that. Like if all we're going to talk about is football and, and beer, like I get bored, right? Like at some point I want to know, like, what do you care about? What do you hope for? What are your goals? What are you working on right now? You know? And it's like, if a guy can't go there, I find that I just don't become friends with him.

1:41:57Um, and so I, I just find that I have naturally kind of ended up surrounded by men in my life who are interested in personal growth into interested in improving themselves, being emotionally healthy, um, who also struggle. Like I think all of us do with expressing our emotions, but are at least working on it and trying and trying to have good relationships and trying to, um, do something great in the world. Um, so it's, I think you can encourage men in your life. It's funny. Actually, I, uh, one of those guys that I, I was talking about who like just emotionally kind of shut off, who's a husband of one of my wife's best friends.

1:42:40And because his wife and my wife are like very close friends, I ended up hanging out with him a lot. And for like the first couple of years, it was, it was kind of hard. like I would ask him personal questions and he would just kind of like stare at me like like not knowing what to say like it was a trick question or something and I'm like dude I just I just want to know like what your childhood was like you know like it's not rocket science it's not crazy shit like I'm just like you know tell me something about yourself uh and it was funny because it's like slowly he would like open up a little bit here a little bit there but then it's it's funny cause, uh, they moved away for a couple of years and, and they just moved back like two or three months ago.

1:43:28And so we've started hanging out with him again. And I hung out with this guy and we had a great time together. And as we're hanging out, he like looked at me and he's like, he's like, Hey man, uh, you know, I started going to therapy last year. I was like, really? And he's like, it's like one of the best things I ever did in my life. And then we had this amazing conversation about like how he grew up, his, his marriage, like all the stress from his work and how he wasn't handling it well, how he like stopped smoking pot, like all completely different relationship, completely different friendship.

1:44:05So I think there's like, I think it's on men to try to positively influence each other and like assure each other, like, Hey dude, it's all right. Like, I'm not going to laugh at you. I'm not going to like look down on you or whatever. Like, just be real, you know? This is an exception. And your world and you are also an exception in this whole thing. Don't you think? In fact, don't you think? Like, this is true. This is reality, okay? Most men, they respect serial killers, warlords, these really gangster type of people and figures more than emotional men why do you think they do that and there's enough proof there's there are enough games there are enough movies there's enough uh people's liking you don't even need data for it you know it i know as there's some merit in respecting these like warlords and gangsters and is it respect though why are they attracted towards it let's just put it forget respect i think that's a yeah i think that's a, that's a different thing because like, like I love the Godfather and Scarface and Grand Theft Auto, right?

1:45:20Like it's, I think it's what it is, is so Freud had this, uh, Freud had this like amazing, um, concept called sublimation, which is basically the desire to live vicariously through somebody else. You know, it's like all the things that we All the things we don't allow ourselves to experience, we crave living it through somebody else. And I think this is partly why we love celebrities. We love music stars. But I think it's also why we love violent movies and movies about gangsters and warlords and video games where you're in war. There's a part of you that kind of craves that, but you've suppressed it and you don't allow yourself.

1:46:09Like, obviously, you're never going to act on it, but there's some sort of satisfaction on being able to, like, pretend for a few hours that you're, like, this violent warlord in the middle of Los Angeles or whatever, and you can do whatever you want. Like, there's something just very primitive and satisfying about it. But I don't think 99.9 % of people, I don't think anybody mistakes that. I love The Godfather. I would never, ever, ever want to be the head of a mafia. Ever. Are you sure? Yeah, no matter how many - We can turn off the camera and then you can tell me reality. no matter how many times i watch it i i would not trade places with them what's broken in male psychology why do we like this there is there's no denying to it we we enjoy that some people want to win some people not want to win but majority of us even if we don't want to become We want the bad guy to win in the movie.

1:47:22We want this. There's something inside us which likes a nonviolent behavior. What's broken about male psychology that puts us in this position? I don't think it's broken. I think it's there for a reason. Like, I think it's, like, imagine if you went to war and needed to defend your country. Like, you need to be able to tap into that. it needs to be down there. Obviously, you don't want to live there 24-7, but if somebody breaks into your house and is threatening your family, you need to be able to tap into that. So I do think it's there for a reason. I don't think it's necessarily broken or wrong.

1:48:08We even like these days, if you look at all around the world, we even promote and like certain leaders who depict these kind of personality traits. Look at the highest offices in the world. Yeah. Right? And look at the highest offices in certain religions, in certain countries. We love these figures for some reason. Well, people are drawn to a strong man leader, an authoritarian leader. I think for the same reason people are drawn to a narcissist. There's a false comfort in their confidence. And the same just as people who get into a relationship with a narcissist find out very quickly that that confidence is false and there's absolutely no safety or security there, that it's actually more chaos.

1:48:59I think the same is true with an authoritarian leader. People opt into it because they're like, ah, stability, strength, security. and then you get on the other side of it and you're like oh no this is like twice as much chaos as there was before i also believe because when social institutions are not rewarding non-violent behavior as much as they should more men would want to be violent because the the movies that they see or the stories that they hear about they hear about the perks and the grandiose and the celebration for longer time of these men who have been violent than their then their destruction and demise yeah because so if you look at the movies as well the villain who you want to win there's a whole story and they're winning for 90 of the movie yeah five six percent ten percent they just died yeah yeah so you your brain is focusing on this behavior and you feel like in my life, social institutions and society has not rewarded me as much.

1:50:09I might rather choose that. I think it's incompetency for an entire society, which have not rewarded cooperative behavior as much as should. Do you think so? Well, Freud wrote about this in Civilization and its Discontents. He argued that social institutions are the check on our like primitive violent nature, right? So it's, it's, it is those social institutions, those legal institutions, those, uh, those forms of government that like keep a check. They like, they create incentives for us to behave well. And so as those institutions weaken, the incentives to behave well weaken as well. And Freud believed that that's where...

1:51:03He wrote that book after World War II because he was so horrified with what happened across the planet. And he felt like a need to explain it. And that was his explanation, that it's like when the institutions deteriorate to the point that they no longer hold the primitive impulses in check, you get an outburst of war and conflict. And then eventually the conflicts get so bad that people desperately invent new institutions to tamp down and put everything in check again. And then the cycle repeats a couple of generations later. Do you feel the easier explanation is what you said before? that most of us are insecure and we see these traits that's like confident and secure and that's why we choose them is that it?

1:52:00in simple words because more men are insecure they feel these mafia gang leaders are very secure and confident and like out there they would want to feel like that and that's why they like them it's a kind of feeling which is missing in their life yeah I think it's a quick and easy solution, right? Like if you feel like you have no opportunities the conventional way, then why not try the unconventional way? Do you also feel more,

1:52:36like more and more you achieve in your life, let's say where you are or like where most people are, people who achieved a lot, they are actually a lot more insecure.

1:52:50because they try to overcompensate their insecurity with achieving constantly. Yeah. Hasn't been the case with you? I think in the past, early in my career, I was motivated by a lot of insecurity. It's funny because like, if you think about one of the things that I didn't anticipate before I had achieved a lot is that the more you achieve, the more you have to lose. like nobody tells you that like when you're at the bottom of the mountain all you think you just think the top is going to be great yeah like it's just all the the rewards and benefits and everything but then you get to the top of the mountain you're like oh i could fall a long way so i do think there's there is an aspect of that um that i didn't anticipate um Um, but I do think it's, yeah, it's no secret that like a lot of incredibly successful people are motivated by this like very deep insecurity that they're not enough.

1:53:54Um, for me personally, like I think there was some of that early in my career. Um, I think I'm in a much more secure and stable place now, like the last 10 years. um one of the things that i just learned about myself is that i love i love achieving like it's just fun like i i love setting big ambitious goals and then going after them like it's it's even if i when i i'm very much in a place in my life like i don't have to do anything if i don't want to but i realized i like it it's like a it's like the best video game in the world you know It's like just building amazing shit in the world and putting it out there for people and seeing if they like it and trying to improve it.

1:54:45It's fun. Do you think most men who are overachievers are deeply insecure or they're deeply driven by purpose? Which one's more true? I imagine that there's a certain level that insecure people will get to.

1:55:11Because when you're motivated by insecurity, you're not really motivated by the thing itself. You're not motivated by the thing you're doing. So let's use an example of like, let's say somebody becomes a lawyer to make a lot of money, but they hate being a lawyer. But they're very insecure. So they're like, I need a lot of money. I need to be a lawyer. from what I've observed is that people like that, like they'll work really hard and become a really successful lawyer, but they eventually hit a certain point that they're like, I don't need to keep doing this. And this didn't solve any of my problems.

1:55:50And so I just feel like insecurity burns out at a certain point. My experience is that generally and this actually really surprised me when I started meeting people who were incredibly successful, like centimillionaires, billionaires, really famous people. I was actually surprised how many of them were actually motivated by a broader sense of purpose. Uh, cause I, I expected the opposite. I expected to find insecurity at the top of the mountain and then like a lot of purpose kind of on its way down. And it was, it was the flip. It was the opposite. What I found was a lot of moderately, like somewhat rich people who are driven by insecurity and burn themselves out and were tired and just wish they could stop playing the game, but they didn't know how to stop.

1:56:42But once you get, once you get really high up, you tend to find more purpose and mission. i i agree with this in some sort the more and more people i talk to and the more and more i reflect on my journey i find the same thing yeah it's in the beginning i was driven out of insecurity yeah that i need to have enough wealth and money so that nobody in my family is fighting for fighting because of finances i thought money will solve everything right yep and And the day I started not playing that game, not day, I would like enough moments and now I've reached a much better place in my life. Yeah. That there's something liberating about it.

1:57:30Where you're not insecure. And I think I've gotten much better and I'm attracting way more opportunities and wealth and good people in my life. Yeah. And way more happier. and I find out way more energy since the day I started playing it like a game. For me, this is like, I'm not doing this genuinely because of some insecurity. It's just, I love doing it. I mean, I feel this is the best job in the world. It's fun. It's like a game I'm playing every day. Yeah, and there's also, I imagine you feel this too, but once you reach this level, you realize that there's a certain level of responsibility.

1:58:13Like it's you and I have been blessed with these platforms and these audiences and, and to be in a position like this where you can reach millions of people, it is an honor. Right. And like, I feel that very deeply these days of, of like, I need to, I need to be a good steward to the people who listen to me and, and be, try to be a good force in the culture and in society. And I take that very, very seriously. And I find it incredibly motivating and very satisfying too, right? So it's, I agree with you. I think the question is, is like, can you start there or do you have to be insecure first? Which I actually don't know.

1:59:02You know, I think this is what I believe in, okay? I believe that first, if you don't have food on your table and you don't have enough means and finances to secure your family, just get that part sorted. Forget about these questions. All the questions about purpose. Am I doing it right? Wrong? Good? Bad? Whatever. Like all of these passion, purpose, things like responsibility. Just keep it aside. Yeah. The meaning of your life right now is to put food on the table. and then take care of your family once you've taken care of that then ask these questions of purpose and try to do i'm doing it out of insecurity or i'm doing it to make it better for me or is it liberating is it positive is it negative all of that yeah and one thing which i find it difficult tell me if it's good or bad i'll tell you what i feel every time Every time I'm playing the game, okay, let's say this is the game or like any entrepreneurial venture I'm doing.

2:00:07Sure. Or whenever I'm meeting somebody or there's an opportunity, I feel very inferior. I feel like this guy is way more powerful. This guy is better. This guy is more knowledgeable. This guy has more money. I feel inferior. Yeah. Do I even deserve this? like is it for me there's there's a deep sense of inferiority complex in me and i try to compare myself with everybody in the room and it has nothing to do with that person finances a position i can be comparing myself with somebody who is much lower in terms of physical or economic or social status in me i would still feel inferior at the same time i have the superiority complex

2:01:01I am the best. Like I was born for this. I'm going to kill it. Maybe I'm not this today. Yeah. But I am more hungry than this guy I'm going to beat. Like I know this. Yeah. I don't know how to navigate these feelings that both are like combined. And every time I walk in a room, whether for a podcast or for a pitch or a sales meeting, I feel the same thing. Have you ever felt like both feelings together? Yeah, I can relate to that a lot. I, it's funny too, cause I mean, I, I think both are, the superiority is probably a comp, a compensation for the inferiority, right? Like it's, it's a, it's a counteraction.

2:01:42So it's the part of your brain saying like, no, no, no, we're not going to feel that way. We're going to be better. Yeah. Uh, it's funny because I think I used to feel that a lot. I felt that particularly when my book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck took off. And a lot of big opportunities started showing up. I started meeting really famous, impressive people, really wealthy people, started getting invited to dinners and events and stuff. And I'm like, how am I here? How did I end up in this room? And I would say for a few years, I felt that quite a bit. It's funny though, because I think as I've gotten older, the thing I started to realize is just nobody knows what they're doing.

2:02:29Like nobody. Even billionaires, A-list celebrities, politicians, like everybody's winging it. Everybody's just like, I think this will work. We'll find out. And at a certain point, I don't know, I take a lot of comfort in that, that there's not some mysterious bar that I'm trying to reach or achieve, that there's not a secret that people have figured out that I haven't figured out. Everybody's just taking their best guess, and some people tend to best guess better than others. You know, one thing, no matter at which level you are in your life, whether you're just starting out, you're made it big, there's one thing we all crave in some level, that is respect.

2:03:30How can somebody instantly become respectable in a room they walk in?

2:03:39it's a little cliche but i think the the best way to be respected is to to respect is to respect others right is to this comes back to the confidence thing right it's like the difference between a confident person and a narcissist is that a confident person doesn't need to prove to you that they're right or a narcissist does um and because a narcissist needs to prove to you all the time, they are by definition not respecting you. They're not respecting your opinion. They're not respecting your agency. They're not respecting, um, that you may know something that they don't. Um, when you're confident, you respect people because you understand that they come from a different background.

2:04:20They have different perspectives. They have different opinions and they can probably teach you something that you don't know. And, um, And so I always start with respect until the person proves otherwise.

2:04:39You give benefit of doubt that everybody needs to be respected. Yes. Until. Until. Until. There's also a funny thing which I've noticed. I should have asked you this in the section where we were talking about men and women. But here we go because we're talking about respect. Why do some men chase validation from women they don't even respect? That's a good question. That's a good question. I think a lot of men see women as a status signal. Any woman? No, beautiful women. It's funny. One of the things that I observed in the pickup artist industry, and this was another thing that I said that got me a lot of hate in that industry, but I still think to this day, I still think it's true.

2:05:29Men who came to the pickup artist stuff, they came because they wanted approval from women, but the ones who really stayed and really spent a lot of time there, it's because they wanted approval from other men. And I think the guys who become very, very fixated on how much women like them or dislike them or how many women date them or how beautiful a woman they can date is, it has very little to do with the women. It has everything to do with other men. They crave the admiration and respect of other men and they see women as a means to receive that.

2:06:13and sadly when you're treating women as a means to receive respect from other men by definition you are not respecting the woman so that's why they don't care they don't care if she's smart or stupid or has an interesting personality or interesting hobbies all they care about is what is this going to get me for the other men that i'm around so they don't care if they respect the women or not? They just care, will other men respect me or not? Yeah. Do other men respect? I would say other unconfident men. I mean, this comes back to the Dan Bilzerian thing, right? It's like you and I look at Dan Bilzerian.

2:06:53We're like, wow, what a loser. But it's like 13 million guys are like, oh my God, this guy's amazing.

2:07:05Let's say if somebody's watching this right now and have figured out that the right way to build is not the kind of wave that we've discussed about and looking at like really terrible role models yeah and they want to get their life together and there's some that 25 if you were 25 right and you want to get your life together yeah give me an action plan for the next 90 days 90 days like i want to start today this is it. I want to reset my life. 2026 is my year. I'm 25. I want to go from zero to actually building an identity or maybe go on the right path. How do I reset my life in just 90 days? Reset your life?

2:07:50I don't know if you can reset the whole life, but I would start with yourself. Start with the basics, health, fitness, hobbies. It's funny. So there's a section in models, my dating book for men that is just all about this. It's like, these are the basics that you just have to get in order. Like this is, this is minimum requirements, right? For like dating any, any woman who's going to make you happy. And it's, and it's, there's, and there's an 80, 20 to all these things, right? So it's, you don't, you don't need to be like a bodybuilder or have a six pack. You just need to have good fitness and health, like take care of yourself.

2:08:32And it's not even about how you look. It's about your energy, your confidence. If you go to the gym, if you work out regularly, you're going to feel more energetic. You're going to feel better about yourself. You're going to have more confidence when you're doing pretty much anything else in life. So that's one piece of it. One piece of it. The next piece of it, I think, is make sure that you have hobbies and interests in your life that you're pursuing for no other reason than you like them. And it's for most young men, it's like, I'm going to say video games don't count. Not that you can't play video games, but like you need to have something in your life that doesn't involve a screen that you're really interested in or really want to pursue or get good at.

2:09:18And again, it's less about what the actual activity is, and it's more the fact that you are doing something, you're improving at something, you're learning something on a regular basis, and you have some diversity of interests, right? The third thing I would say is focus on social life. And I would go in this order, by the way. Personal fitness and health, lifestyle. Second is hobbies and interests. And then third is social life. Like get out of the house, see people face to face, make a few good friends, um, and really just find people that you genuinely enjoy being around. You don't feel insecure around them.

2:10:04You don't feel competitive with them. You don't feel like you need to prove something to be around them. Like find people that you enjoy being with simply for the sake of being with them. And it's funny because it's like, if you get those three things in order, it makes all the dating stuff five times easier. Everything. So if I have to reframe this and put it in a 90-day framework. Yep. So step one, first 30 days, you focus on foundation biology of your life. Yep. Where you're taking care of your health, body, energy, sleep. just like the basic stuff so that you're getting in a ritual and a habit to take care of yourself and your body yeah better way that's first 30 days second like the next 30 days which is 30 to 60 you focus on your fitness and plus you add your identity into it hobbies interests identity what is that one or two things which i can really get good at yeah and has some level of professional value to it as well.

2:11:09It just doesn't have to be something like playing a game online. Yeah. It's something, it doesn't involve a screen. And the thing is too, is you don't have to be good at it. Like it just needs to be something that you are curious about that you enjoy. Like when I'm - Trying to get good at it, right? Well, you want to improve, but you don't need to be good at it. Like for example, when I moved here to LA, I took up surfing. I'm a terrible surfer, but I love it. It makes me really happy. I love being in the ocean. I love getting out there paddling. It's a great workout. I love the water. I'm not a good surfer, but every time I go out, I get a little bit better.

2:11:44Some of my best guy friends here in LA, I met through surfing or like we go surf together. That's it. That's all, that's all that matters. So it's, it's just like a simple hobby. It's a nice thing I do on the weekends. It's something that I can like try to improve at or, or, or learn about. And, uh, and then, and then when you go out and you try to build that social life from day 60 to 90. Now you have something to do together. You have something more than, you know, playing Minecraft or, you know, staring at TikTok or whatever, you know, like you just go out, build friends who you would love to work and play with.

2:12:19Yeah. That's these are the these are your 90 days. 30, 30, 30. That is the basics. That is the absolute basics. Yes. Okay. You know, Do you feel sometimes you sort of contradict what you say? Me? Never. Like, okay, look at your life. I have never contradicted myself. Ever.

2:12:47You know, there's a research I was reading, okay, that researchers found that people who experience major trauma and then dedicate their life teaching to others about resilience show different brain patterns than people who just heal and move on. The teachers never fully process their own trauma. They get stuck in a loop of re-explaining it. And researchers called it performative healing. Okay. So do you think you relate to that? What are you trying to say, Raj? I'm saying you've gone through a lot. You've gone through a lot. So maybe you want to teach more men because there was a time in your life where you were miserable.

2:13:35Sure. Right? There was where you were just tripping on drugs, doing a bunch of random shit, not taking care of yourself. You saw dysfunctional relationships in your family. So there was like meaninglessness all around. You're not good. And you, in fact, after your first book as well, you were making money and you felt terrible. You were miserable. So you've gone through a bunch of shit. And now your whole life is dedicated teaching men not to give up. Teaching men how to be purposeful. Teaching people how to live life in a better way. So you're teaching what you never experienced initially. Do you think it became a way for you to just, I don't know.

2:14:22Like there was like the solutions of your own problems started becoming suggestions for others. It probably started that way for sure. You know, there, there's an old saying that like people who can't do teach and it's, there's probably wisdom in that. I do think it started that way. Like, and I, by the way, I have been open about this. I haven't talked about it in a long time, but back when I was blogging, I used to talk about this, that my blog was my therapy, right? So it was like anything that I was wrestling with or any insecurity that I was struggling with, I would go write an article about it.

2:15:07And that was kind of my way of like sorting everything out in my head and trying to understand what was going on with myself. So there's absolutely that element. And I think anybody who teaches in this industry, there's absolutely that element to it, that it's like part of us, we're healing ourselves. And it just so happens that like most humans hurt in similar ways. So in the act of healing yourself, you're likely going to contribute and help millions of other people who have experienced similar things. Do you think you've healed properly? or completely? No, completely no. I don't think anybody heals completely, but that's okay.

2:15:54Properly, I don't know how to answer that. I will just say that I feel very healthy and happy the last four years, five years. You've also struggled with social insecurity. In the beginning, I was reading that you were chasing validation, fame, social proof, all of these, like you wanted to be seen and chosen in some form. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Does your fame today fill that void for you? I think - Or you still have that, like you want to be seen? I think there's definitely, there's definitely some insecurity there that that my public persona satisfies like an itch that it scratches i i don't think anybody who puts in the amount of time and energy to build an audience like ours by the way i'm not the only one at this table who has worked for years.

2:17:05We've been talking about you. Come on. Cut, cut.

2:17:14But it is funny. I think there's still some of that down there for sure. For sure. If I'm being really honest with myself in moments, like it's still there. I don't think it controls me. Maybe the way it did 10, 15 years ago. Like it's not the primary motivation, but it's an itch that still likes to be scratched occasionally. Like I like to see the numbers go up. Yeah. There's a lot of researchers and a lot of examples of people who preach detachment and outcome independence. and because of preaching that detachment, they get fame and then they get attached and addicted to the fame that comes with it.

2:18:05I believe it. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. It happened with you? Does it happen with you? I try to, so there's two things that I do about that. One is you said earlier that you had a much better relationship with it once you saw it as kind of a game. I feel the same way. Like it's for many years, especially early in my career, I saw how many people read me, how many people listened to me as very much a judgment on me, on how good I was. Eventually, you just learn that like people come and go. Some episodes are better than others. Some topics pop off. You don't know why. It has nothing to do with you.

2:18:50like eventually you just you gain the wisdom and maturity to understand that like it's actually not about you most of the time some of it's about you but not all of it um and so i i definitely see it as a game the other thing that i try to do is um and i've been doing this recently is is i try to very intentionally find ways to meet fans face to face like whether it's events or hosting a meetup or, um, you know, doing some sort of special piece of piece of content, but like actually meeting fans and readers in person, hearing their stories, talking to them about their life. Like it just makes it real.

2:19:30And again, it reminds me, it's like, it's not about me. It's, it's really, it's, I'm just a, a conduit for a lot of these ideas and perspectives to reach people. And so it's a nice way to keep me sane. Talking about sane, which is completely, I'm going to ask you something which is completely unrelated to this. But something about you, which I found interesting, and I didn't find enough stories or data around it that you used to be a wingman. A wingman? A wingman for$800 an hour or some stuff like that. Like you mentioned somewhere, right? So I used to, when I started my career as a dating coach, that was one of the services back then.

2:20:32It's like you could pay a guy. This is like way back in my career. So you and your team must've dug really far. but it used to be, um, you know, you could read my blog, you could like buy my ebook or whatever. Um, you could go to my seminar and, and then if you wanted, yeah, I'll come out for whatever, 800 bucks a night or whatever it was. Um, yeah, I'll come out with you. I'll go to a bar with you and I'll meet a bunch of girls and introduce them to you and tell you what you're doing wrong and critique, like what you're, how you're presenting yourself, what you're saying or whatever. Interesting line of work.

2:21:16Did it, tell me honestly, did it only work for you or for others as well? Like you would make$800 and get the girls, but others would just keep seeing you play the game. No, no, no. I, it's funny because there were guys in the industry who just, they would take the money and then they would just try to go get, hook up themselves. I never liked that because it just felt very, felt like cheating. So what were the rules? The rules were it's like, the focus is the client, right? So if the girl really likes me or whatever, like, great, cool. I'll take her number, talk to her later. The focus is on the client.

2:21:59And, um, but yeah, I mean, some, some men, some men would see a lot of success really quickly. Um, some men, it was really hard and, you know, really frustrating, very slow. Uh, you know, it's just, it's, it depends a lot on the person and their particular issue. I'm interested. What would you say? Like you would go to a girl and like, what would you say? This is like, and later when she finds out, like you were paid$800 to set up this. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. You, you, the, yeah, you know. Okay, tell me specifics. Tell me one incident where it worked and one incident where it didn't work.

2:22:40Okay. I'm trying to remember. So the client that I'm trying, like one of the best clients I ever had, great guy. So a lot of the clients. Okay, sorry. Like I'm breaking the story, but I have a question. Yeah, yeah. Best client would mean somebody who would never get because you keep getting paid again and again. No, no. Best client is like, they got amazing results very quickly. Outcome, success. Yes. So a lot of, you know, like body dysmorphia, right? Like women who, even though they're skinny, they think they're very fat. I feel like a lot of men have like confidence dysmorphia. Like there's a lot of men who, they're incredibly successful and interesting and smart.

2:23:28and kind and like they have all these great traits about them but like they think they're losers and these were always the easiest clients because in their head no woman is ever going to want to talk to them and so those clients like basically my job was simply to take them out and show them how wrong they were which usually didn't take very long uh i'll give you one specific example so there was a guy I worked with, um, who it's very interesting. Actually, he was, so he was Nigerian from Africa, um, moved to the United States as a teenager, but moved to like the middle of like rural middle of the middle of the U S like at one of the most racist parts of the U S.

2:24:15And he had a really bad experience after only being in the U S for like a month or two. Like he, he got arrested like basically a woman uh a a white woman accused him of like treating like treating her poorly but it turned out it was a different black guy and so the police came and arrested him and he actually went to jail for something he never did basically for like just speaking to a woman so he had this like trauma and fear of even speaking to women and this lasted for over 10 years. So when I met him, he was in his late twenties. He was a doctor. He was incredibly successful in great shape.

2:25:01Nicest guy in the world. Super smart. I remember when I met him, I was like, how do you have problems? Like there's no way you have any problems. And he was just terrified of speaking to women. He had all of that trauma and baggage. So with him, it was really just casually walking up to women and politely introducing ourselves and being like, hey, this is so-and-so. And he just had to see that they were really nice and receptive over and over again. And I remember it was hilarious. I think he got like six or eight phone number. I think we talked to like 10 women and like eight of them gave them their phone numbers.

2:25:47And I remember he was so shocked. He was like, how is it always this easy? And I was like, yeah, for you, it's going to be. Yeah. And he just like couldn't believe it. So that's an example of like a real great success story or like a, you know, a good client outcome. You know what's going to happen now? Somebody will clip this part. Yeah. like just this reel and there are a lot of people reaching out to you to do the same thing for them no guys i'm retired i'm a retired wingman um okay an example of somebody it did not go out with um

2:26:29i worked with a guy So he was a professional poker player. And he was like a math genius, but just horrible social skills, horrible social skills. And worse, being a poker player, playing poker 10 hours a day, he was obsessed with money. So he was one of these guys that probably followed Dan Bilzerian and was like, yeah, I want that. he just he didn't go outside enough he didn't have friends he had like no social contact so his his view of the world was just very warped and distorted and i i i remember he actually hired me for a lot like a week you know and so i ended up spending a week with him and i remember spending most of the time with him just explaining to him like no no this is not how the world works like nobody cares.

2:27:27Nobody cares about your car, dude. Like, let me, let me explain this to you. Nobody gives a shit what kind of car you drive. And he like, just didn't understand. It was, it seemed like such a big, important thing to him. And his social skills were really terrible. Um, and he was just very awkward and arrogant and, um, and basically like any, he had tons of money. So it It was like as somebody who he was hiring, it was actually really hard because he just kept hiring me for more nights. And I'm like, I can't stand this guy. I don't want to be around this guy. I ended up basically having to kind of cut him off and be like, look, dude.

2:28:12You've gone to work. Yeah, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not the right wingman for you. No. Probably Dan B.A. Yeah. You should go to that. Yeah. Choose a different wingman. Yeah. But I remember my parting advice for him is I remember I told him, because he was going out to clubs, he was buying like VIP tables and bought, like he was spending thousands of dollars a night. And I remember I told him, I was like, I think you should stop this. I think you should stop spending all the money. I said, I think you should, what you should do, I'm being like my very best advice for you is to stop all of this and spend the next year and just focus on making friends.

2:28:56Make some friends, get some social skills, get a social life, then come back to the dating and worry about it. And he did not like hearing that. And I don't know. I never heard from him again. So you've been in this for a very long time. You've been the pickup artist. You've been with so many people. You've seen successes and failures. Do you think this works? This buying the VIP table, like spending like a lot of money on champagne. A lot of guys do that. Define works. Do you think women like that? I think it gets attention. i don't it depends what you want if you want attention yeah it will probably get you some attention um do you want a good relationship it's not going to get you a good relationship like it's it it can i think a lot of men who who don't have any affection or intimacy in their lives, they mistake having lots of attention for having affection and intimacy, but attention is not a replacement.

2:30:13It's very empty. It's some sort of manipulation, right? And just like one of your other techniques, do you think, as straightforward as I can be, do you think some women love to get manipulated i mean i i don't i take issue with the death with the the definition of the question because i think if if she knew she was being manipulated then she's not really being manipulated i i'll say i'll say I think some people, both men and women, do secretly like toxic relationships. Again, it's the addiction. It makes them feel alive. It gives their life a sense of meaning. They ride the emotional roller coaster and they continually find themselves drawn back to it.

2:31:16the same way an alcoholic finds themselves drawn back to a bar, the same way a drug addict finds themselves dragged back or a gambling addict finds themselves dragged back to a casino. Like it's people who people can get hooked on toxic relationships and they find themselves consistently being drawn back to the same personalities. And this can be potentially a pattern which is coming from their families as well. In a lot of cases, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you said that your Your parents didn't make their relationship work because they came from a dysfunctional family. Your parents also were not able to make their relationship work.

2:31:54So you technically also came from a dysfunctional family. Correct. How did you break that cycle? A lot of work on myself and my wife has done a lot of work on herself as well. What do you mean by work? How can somebody who is self-aware and who's understood this pattern that they come from a dysfunctional family, but now want to work and make the relationship good. How can they work on themselves? I think there's two components of it. One is just gaining awareness of the environment you grew up in, the dysfunction you grew up in, the values that you have, maybe the insecurities that you have. So the first and most important component is just gaining an awareness around all of this stuff.

2:32:40Like you have to educate yourself about yourself. The second component is then learning the skills, like learning how to, um, manage your emotions without blaming your partner, um, learning how to set boundaries clearly and effectively and learning how to enforce them as well. Um, learning how to communicate your feelings in a way that's not needy or manipulative, uh, or, or demanding, um, learning how to be present, learning how to listen, like all of these kinds of fundamental core relationship skills come after the awareness because you need, you need the awareness to understand like where you weren't taught well, what, what were the things that in the house that you grew up in that are actually not healthy.

2:33:27And then also like, what are the things that you're naturally kind of good at? Because everybody does have certain skills that they're good at, you know? And, and so it's, you gain that understanding and then you work on the skills, but even, even working on the skills, it's incredibly hard. You know, my wife and I've like learned so much from each other in terms of how to communicate well, how to be open with our emotions, how to not judge each other, um, how to not get triggered by some stupid thing or that stupid thing. You know, it, it's just, it's a constant work in progress. And, um, but I think it's, I think it's the most worthwhile work, you know, all of our, all of the psychological research, probably the most consistent and profound finding that psychology has found over and over and over and over again, over a hundred years is that happiness is simply good relationships.

2:34:24If you have good relationships in your life, you're probably going to be a happy and healthy person. And if you don't have good relationships, you're probably not going to be a happy and healthy person. Like it is, if you were to boil down the entire field into a single sentence, like that's probably what you end up with. And so developing this awareness, developing these skills, I think it's just one of the highest leverage things anybody can do, especially if they're young. in this entire thing nowhere you mentioned money and and but for a lot of people they think in order to have a great life in order to build a great relationship money is so important money would actually give them some sort of feeling of they have made it and their life is good and you have said in past as well that money doesn't solve anything right something something of that sort.

2:35:19Then at a very young age, you learned that money doesn't solve it. What does then? Have you figured out? Well, let me clarify my stance on money.

2:35:35Money is like oxygen. If you don't have it, it solves everything. And if you do have it, it solves nothing. So you said earlier, money solves money problems. It doesn't pass money problems, it doesn't solve any problem. So I 100 % agree with what you said earlier. Like if you are struggling to put food on the table, if you're not financially stable, if your family's not taken care of, yes, money should be top priority. But once you get past that basic stability and those basic needs being met, money doesn't solve anything. And in fact, what surprises people is that money can actually complicate things.

2:36:15Because having money, it can enable bad behaviors. It removes consequences from mistakes. It can provide more distractions or methods of avoidance of what needs to be said or done. That was the experience in my family growing up. So I grew up pretty middle class. And then when I was maybe six or eight years old, my father's business really took off. And then we had a lot of money. And my parents, it wasn't the worst, it wasn't the most dysfunctional relationship in the world, but like they were not, neither one of them had that self-awareness that I was just talking about around like their own emotional issues and their own childhoods and their own feelings.

2:37:08Neither of them could really express their feelings well. And so they didn't, they, they weren't, they were both the type of people that just avoid problems and avoid conflict and pretend like nothing's wrong. And so what happened in the case of both of them is when my family suddenly got a lot of money, now they have way more opportunities to avoid problems, right? So It's a little bit frustrated, upset about something. Well, let's just book another trip to Europe. Not happy about how this thing is going? Well, let's buy a new car. Just forget about it. Buy a new TV. Let's get the new satellite package with 500 channels.

2:37:47That would keep the kids happy for a while. Money just became a new way to push the problem further into the future until eventually we just ended up in a situation where like everybody was frustrated or upset or unhappy, but nobody felt like they could talk about it. And so the situation blew up. And so I feel fortunate that I learned at a very young age that money doesn't solve the happiness problem.

2:38:24Money doesn't buy happiness. It can buy away unhappiness, but that's not the same thing as buying happiness. So if you're hungry, money solves that problem. If you are cold, money solves that problem.

2:38:41If you want to have a basic lifestyle, money solves that problem. but if you don't have friends, if you don't have a good relationship, if you hate your job, it doesn't solve any of those. Does it bother you even today that your parents' relationship didn't work out?

2:39:12What a question, man. I think like any family, so we talked earlier about how like some things never heal entirely. I think that's definitely one. I don't think like if you're a child of divorce, I don't think you ever completely are at peace with it. These days though, I mean, I would say the anger and resentment from that, I feel like I sorted through that probably at least a decade ago. These days, my frustration tends to be more just around how my parents manage it today. You know, it's like sometimes, and anybody with divorced parents is going to relate to this, but like, you know, sometimes there's like little things come, you know, it's like a family, somebody's wedding or a holiday or something.

2:40:03And it's like somebody starts some drama and my brother and I will just sit there and just be like, really guys, like, how long are we going to do this? Do we have to keep doing this? So I think these days it's more, it's just more frustration at the present behavior, but, um, but it's hard. I don't, it's maybe this comes full circle back to the comment about it being harder to divorce. Um, i it really does it does a number on the kids for sure and um and i think that needs to be remembered if you were given a chance knowing everything that you know today to maybe go back at the time when they were actually separating how would you fix it or what would you try i don't know i don't know if you can fix a relationship for people but let's say you have to try i do think there is probably something to the fact that like a huge part of my career has been an attempt at trying right it's like it's the the teaching as a form of healing like there's a piece of this that is absolutely like i need to know all the things my parents didn't know so i don't repeat the same process and so i become obsessively interested in this and i start teaching it because it's a way to it's it's my like my unconscious's desperate attempt to solve the thing that that hurt me so much um but i i honestly i i don't know i don't know enough about my parents particular situation their the dynamics of their marriage i know a lot about their personalities i know what each of them has told me but it's hard to know wish you knew more?

2:42:13Not really. Yeah, not really. Um, it's funny. Sometimes I wish I knew less. Sometimes they tell me things I'm like, yeah, I didn't really need to hear that. It's hard. Cause it's, you know, they're your parents, so you love them. Right. And, and, um, and I love both of them and I see, I see what's great in both of them, but I also see their flaws. and so on some theoretical level, I see why it fell apart and broke down. I can see the weaknesses in each of them. Every time I ask you something like this, you laugh it off. Have you ever sat down and cried about it? Yes, yeah, for sure. When was the last time you cried?

2:43:04Probably a long time. So the reason I'm laughing about it there's two reasons. One is that, uh, my defense mechanism is humor too, is that, uh, I've never been asked this stuff before. Like it is, it is such a pointed, like put Mark Manson on the couch and dig into his childhood. Um, so the part of it is just like, I guess as a podcaster myself, It's like an amusement. Like it's like, I was like, wow, nobody's ever asked me this on air before. So that's what it is. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

2:43:53I don't know. I don't know. No judgment. I think it's actually pretty cool. I think it's pretty ballsy, actually. So yeah, respect. Thank you. Wow. I've gotten my day's validation. That's it, done. Time to go home. But now that you're already talking about it, let me try another one level up. Okay. And let me attempt another thing. You were bullied as a kid. Yeah. A little bit. But you've never talked about an incident. A specific incident where you were bullied. Trying to think of one. You know, because if I read neuroscience, then your book's title makes sense to me. because kids who get bullied early on a part of their threat perception increases and they go complete emotional shutdown so their way of dealing with it is i don't give a fuck yeah because if it happens multiple times with them yeah then they're like yeah whatever yeah good the bad the ugly the the the time that you get bullied because it becomes a habit you're like Yeah.

2:45:02Yeah. So you stop giving a lot. You numb yourself. Exactly. So do you think that's your, because you were bullied as a child, that is why you've become like this, trying not to go? I think the bullying is, it's part of a larger, so we're kind of touching on different pieces of the same picture, right? So the paint, like a wider picture. I grew up in rural Texas, which for the Indian listeners is a very conservative, very religious part of the US, like one of the most conservative and religious parts of the US. And as you can probably tell from listening to me, I am not super religious or super conservative.

2:45:52I was very artistic as a child. I was intellectual. I was very curious. Um, and so I grew up in an environment that was just very, didn't really respect the traits that I grew up with. Uh, and, and I felt very out of place. I felt very alienated through most of my childhood. And I didn't really understand why until I became a teenager. And I, then I thought everybody was full of shit. So, um, so that's kind of the backdrop. And then on top of that, you have, you know, my parents, my family's kind of falling apart. And then on top of that, at school, because I'm kind of the nerdy, artsy, creative kid, I'm like bullied by the jocks, by like the popular athletic boys.

2:46:43How were you bullied? Tell me an incident. Well, I went to a school. So where I grew up, athletics was like the top priority. and everybody you're as a young man your status is very much judged based on how athletic you are how good you are at sports i'm terrible at sports always have been so i would get forced onto these sports teams and i was like consistently the worst player and then on top of that as you pointed out i didn't really give a fuck that i was the worst player like i was like i hate this i want to go read a book, like leave me alone. And so the other boys I think were, would get frustrated with me.

2:47:25They didn't understand me. They didn't really accept how I was. Um, and so they, I think initially it kind of started as like, uh, trying to, uh, uh, reinforce, you know, try to get me to try harder. Right. It's like, Manson, stop fucking around. You, you fucking suck, you know, get your ass up, try again, all this stuff. And of course it just like, it never really worked or whenever anywhere. And so then, you know, you, you, you eventually you just kind of become the punching bag. Um, I, there was one boy who he, he got really in the wrestling, um, like Olympic wrestling, you know? Um, and he, he was like learning all these moves.

2:48:11And so he would want to demonstrate moves to his friends so he would always grab me and then like throw me on the ground and then like demonstrate his new move on me in front of all his friends and like i was like i was basically i was basically like his demo his wrestling demo for everybody and he would just like beat the shit out of me um so were you used to get humiliated were you like you used to feel humiliated at that point? Yeah. Or you used to feel like, I'll take revenge? No, it was more humiliation. And you were scared, like you just wanted to avoid the concentration. Yeah, I just avoided them as much as possible.

2:48:51It was never like, I'll come back one day and one day I'll get my chance and stuff like that. It just struck me as stupid. Like, why bother, right? Like, it's... In hindsight, like i probably should have fought back a little bit more although i was so much weaker than him like i brought you ashamed in front of people oh yeah for sure yeah for sure um no it just made me i i just withdrew you know so i just became very closed off um as you said not giving a fuck but like detaching myself right like it's just like emotionless don't show any fear don't show emotion. Don't give them any ammunition.

2:49:38Um, and like I said, like I was very intellectual, artistic. So I just, I just retreated into books and music. Like it's like, okay, they can do whatever they want. I'm just going to sit and sit in the corner and like read and listen to music and just tune out the whole world. Um, I do think one of the reasons, you know, so I did go through a period where I, I made that comment earlier about like the men who, who come to the pickup artists stuff, they want the affection of women, but the men who stay, it's because they desire the validation of other men that I knew that was true because I, that had been true for myself.

2:50:26What I realized is that I thought I just wanted to date more girls, but then when I started dating more girls, I saw how much other men respected me and envied me. And so then it was like a drug. It was like, oh my God, I'm going to, I'm going to date all the girls. I'm going to, I am going to date every girl these guys have ever seen. And so I think there was a lot of compensation there that I was trying to like prove to myself, um, that it was okay, or I was okay or whatever it was. Uh, but then the, the side effect of that is that now I'm, now I'm harboring all of these dysfunctional, unhealthy relationships with women.

2:51:14I'm not respecting them. I'm being a selfish asshole and I'm blowing up every relationship that I could potentially get in. Like I'm, I'm basically sabotaging every single relationship I'm having. And after that went on for a year or two, I started to realize like, Oh wait, something's wrong. Like, I think I'm fucked up. I think I'm the messed up one here. Um, and then that's when I went to therapy and started to kind of straighten my mind out. And then I ended up, I really took a pretty hard left turn in my career. I realized how toxic the pickup artist stuff was. And so I really wanted to write and create the antidote to it.

2:51:59What is the emotionally healthy way for men to improve their dating lives? How can they do it? Not only respecting women, but also respecting themselves. Because this is the thing is that when you objectify women, you're also objectifying yourself. And then that's where the book Models came from. And then that basically set up the whole career. How many relationships it took you to realize this? Oh, man. I don't know, but it's funny because a lot of the girls I dated, I didn't really, it's what I told you earlier, Like I was dating a lot of girls I didn't really respect. So I didn't really care if they broke up with me or got mad at me or whatever.

2:52:50But then eventually I did come across a few women that I really respected and I really liked. And then they would get mad at me and break up with me. And I was like, and after that happened two or three times in a row, like the only thing all your relationships have in common is you. So when you see them all blow up in your face in the exact same way, at a certain point, any honest person has to be like, I'm the problem.

2:53:19I was reading somewhere online, I think on Reddit, it showed that you dated 80 people. You had 80 girlfriends and it took you 80 relationships to figure out that you were the problem. I don't know if it was that many. um are we close to that number probably i don't yeah probably um it's a kind of a blur you know thank you so much you know for for spending time with me i mean that's all i have but one last thing okay because not a lot of my audience knows i used to love your newsletters and that's what my so my exposure to your work was not your book which is the most popular but it was your newsletters and you would write like either recommendations or just shit on people or like you would shit on certain models or sometimes you would just talk about some brutal truths about life or the things you learned over the year i think stuff like that you used to do a lot It was like a bunch of lists.

2:54:31I used to love it. And then I went on YouTube, tried to understand, do you follow the same thing there as well? And one title which I love the most, so I want you to answer that. So that title is Stop Wasting Your Life. How to stop wasting your life?

2:54:51Life is all about using time well, which raises the question, how do you use time well? like what is a valuable use of your time versus what's an unvaluable use of your time and the argument i make in that video is that ultimately any any valuable use of your time is going to compound in some way like it is the effort you put into a good relationship is going to create a better relationship down the road whereas if you put effort into a bad relationship it's not going to get any better. It's, it's at best, it's going to stay the same and it's likely going to get worse. Um, and there are all sorts of activities that the value compounds over time.

2:55:36And there are a lot of activities that the value hits the ceiling over a certain period of time. Right. So generally like novelty seeking behaviors, um, things like partying, uh, traveling, drugs, um, video games, like all of these things, the, the more you do them, the less rewarding they become because they don't, they don't compound. Whereas the activities that are rewarding are generally like skill-based activities, um, developing some sort of network, some deeper understanding, building knowledge, all of these things compound over time. And so So the point of that video is to get people to evaluate how are you spending your time?

2:56:21And then what are the things you're spending your time on? Are they compounding or are they hitting the ceiling? Because if they're hitting the ceiling, then you're going to end up in a situation where you're going to wake up one day doing the same thing you always did, but it's not rewarding anymore because all progress has stopped. You hit the ceiling on everything. So how do we strip out these behaviors and these activities and then replace them with the compounding behaviors and activities? And I think that in a nutshell is, I guess, my life philosophy. Maybe the next book. I don't know. We'll see.

2:56:56So right now, make a list on one side. Write down compounding things that is going to compound in your life versus things which are going to eliminate the feeling of achievement or excitement. Write that down and start spending more time on compounding things. That's what it is. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with me and giving me this opportunity to record a podcast. This was great, man. And you're an amazing interviewer and much love to India. I don't hate India. I don't hate India. I love India. Hope to be back there soon. No, you're great, man. You're really good.

2:57:42um no i was actually i was thinking like halfway through i was like no this guy's like this is one of the best podcast interviews i've done in a long time so well done yeah thank you yeah you're but you've been with like such incredible people do you how can i make it better like you've done steven you've done chris these are like all really like people i look up to yeah um no you're doing a lot of things really really well you seem you you clearly did your research um and you seem to have like a really good sense of what your audience responds to um

2:58:22so like that seemed very good like the conversation flowed very nicely it seemed it was like a very good mix of just kind of like candid conversation and then also like very like pointed you know getting the sound bites and the hooks and everything. Thank you. I'm ready. I'm caffeinated. I'm ready. Let's go. This is you. Yes. Okay.

2:58:43I'm excited. Anything I should know? No. No? Not really. Like nothing. This is the first time. And day one. Okay. I'm the first one. Yeah. Wow. All right.

2:59:04Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. Now you have to do three things. Number one, subscribe to this channel right now. The more you subscribe, the better the guests we will be able to get for you. Number two, please comment and let us know what did we do wrong and what did we do right. Because the more you give us feedback, the better we will be able to make episodes for you. And number three, please share this episode with at least one person because one conversation can change someone's entire life. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.