World Leader At 31: How Sebastian Kurz Became Austria’s Chancellor | FO554 Raj Shamani

35:31like it changed not the one who not the one in the past no okay not the one who got you in no no it was a different person yeah and why did you go against him what was the main reason well i i would say and how old was he by the way he was much older but i i would say i would say that i didn't go against him he went against me that was my my point of view uh what was he against No, he had a different perspective on migration. He was supporting Angela Merkel's approach, which was the main issue for me. And besides that, in these days, I'm a conservative and we were the junior partner of the socialists in a coalition between the socialists and the conservative, which is a coalition that, at least from my point of view, is a very difficult one because both parties have completely different ideas on nearly everything.

36:32So this coalition was in a way stuck in days where I thought that it's necessary to do reforms and also fix migration, which was our biggest problem in these days. And that was the reason why I was very controversial in these days. And it was very unclear how everything would end up. I think the main goal of my party leader in these days was to get rid of me and just continue the coalition. And when he saw that this did not work out, yeah, he resigned. And I had the decision to make either to take over and become vice chancellor and continue everything as it was or to do something different. And of course, for me, it was clear to do something different because I was very upset with the status of the coalition and the policy on migration in these days.

37:42When you asked for early elections, were you confident, be honest, that you'll win? Well, in politics, you never know. I would say I was not sure at all. But I was willing to take the risk because I never wanted to be a professional politician. That was never my goal. I ended up as a member of government, as I told you before, more or less by accident. But I enjoyed it a lot. But the thing I enjoyed is to fight for something that you believe in, to do something positive for your country and to do what you think is good and right for the people in your country. And so for me, it was clear that it wouldn't make any sense to just keep a position just to have it without the power to change it.

38:47So that was the reason why I asked for early elections, why I was ready to take this big risk. And for me, it was also clear that, yeah, if you win, you can really change something. And if you lose, you leave and do something else. At what point did you seriously think that I could lead this country? Well, I think when I asked for early elections, that was the point of no return. You know, almost nobody who's alive today has run a country when they were 30 or 31, right? What did you understand that your opponents didn't? Because Austrians trusted you. Why did Austrians, why did people trust a 30-year-old to run the country?

39:42what do you think what was your winning leverage well because people voted for you i think i i always tried to have the best team yeah and um what we did in in my days is that we brought a lot of people in from outside politics so not only people uh who spent their whole life in politics but people who were successful business people or managers or ran universities or other institutions. And so I think we were able not only to create a big movement, but also to bring a lot of knowledge and experience in the inner circle of politics. And I think this was the main advantage that we had compared to other traditional parties.

40:33So because your team was great, people voted for that as well? I think that was a very important aspect. And I think the second thing was that after so many years of this coalition between the socialists and the conservative party, where not a lot of change was possible because everything felt stuck, I think the country was ready also for reforms and for something new. And this was exactly what we tried. We partnered up for the first time since a long time with the far right. So it was a center-right coalition, my center-right party with the far-right party, which made it possible to have a new, tough approach on illegal migration, which made it possible to do some necessary reforms.

41:33We achieved budget surplus instead of deficit spending. We were very business friendly, which made the country more competitive. and we reduced taxes for working people. So I think we were able to change a lot in a short period of time, which was very much supported by the majority of people. After you became prime minister, okay, the day you became prime minister or in the first couple of days, who did you discover who had the most power which you didn't expect? I think because of the fact that I was foreign minister before and deputy minister before that, I was young, but I had a lot of experience and I knew the system quite well.

42:30So there was not so many surprises. What I would say is that probably there's a lot of power in bureaucracy, which is not so much seen by most people. So most people believe that as a politician, you take the decision. And so it's all about the politicians. The truth is, there's a lot of room for politicians, especially if they are brave and if they are ready to enter a fight. But bureaucracy is very strong, especially in the EU, which means that political decisions sometimes seem to be a bit limited because of this huge bureaucracy where most people are not brave enough to fight it. And I would say this was not a real surprise because I knew about it, but it was even tougher than I thought.

43:33But tell me, because you've been the prime minister and you understand this about the world, who's the most powerful person? Is it the one who's leading the bureaucracy? Is it the agencies like how we have it in US like CIA and FBI of the world? Is it that? Is it some group of like five, six billionaires running everything because they are the one who are investing in infrastructure and they control the money? Or is it the prime minister or the office person who's sitting in those? Who has the maximum power? I think it depends now if you're talking about Austria, the EU or the world in general.

44:15So talking about the world, I would say that, of course, there is more and more power in some big tech giants. So if you're talking about the world, I would say it's very easy to answer. There are only a few superpowers. That's mainly for sure still the US and China. India has become super important and Russia is definitely a player. But the number of superpowers is limited. I think you have to distinguish between Western liberal democracies, where you always have checks and balance and power is limited in a way, and other countries in the world with different systems where one person can be much more center of power than it's possible in the Western world.

45:20So that's the way how I would answer it. Of course, tech companies are getting more and more important. And if you look at, for example, the numbers of users of social media platforms of course like their algorithms and other decisions they make have a lot of influence on the public opinion and probably in the end also on elections so if we keep china and china and their leader aside because that's where the concentrated power is there and there are no checks and balances if we keep that aside who do you think like who would be the two or three people who would have the maximum amount of power today in the world.

46:07Is it tech giants or is it the president of? No, it's definitely the president of the US who is always the most powerful person in the world. And is it not like how we read everywhere in random articles or a lot of conspiracy theorists in the world would come out on internet and talk about it that there is, I heard one billionaire say - I think you should always enjoy conspiracy theories, but you should not believe them. That's what I'm asking you, right? I don't believe a lot of them, but I enjoy a lot of them, right? Okay, that's fine. I heard one billionaire say that the world is controlled by 100 people sitting on one table and they decide who's gonna be the leader of the world next.

46:57That's bullshit. That's pure bullshit? Pure bullshit. It's not decided by 100 men who are like behind the mask and they decide how politicians are pure, pure pawns and so on? Absolutely not. Look, if you follow the public debate in the US, I think it's obvious to say that nobody knows at the moment who will be the next nominees for the presidential campaign in two years. Nobody knows who is going to win. So it's not a decision by a small group of people. In Western liberal democracies, it's always a decision by the voters. And to be honest, it's very, very difficult to predict the outcome of these elections.

47:46In the US system, it's even difficult to predict the outcome of the primaries. So if you ask me now, who is going to run next time for the Republicans in the US, I would tell you it's difficult to say if it's Marco Rubio or J.D. Vance or somebody else. and you don't believe that or have you ever seen a sign that there are some few bunch of people who invest in a certain candidate from very young age and build them a fund their entire political career campaigns and slowly end up making them one of the most powerful people in the world does that happen well i think it depends about which country we are talking so in most talking about democracies in most european countries yeah especially in in in our system for example you have a lot of public money for political parties and the the support from the business sector for political parties is very limited and not really relevant so there is nothing like such phenomenon.

48:56In the US, of course, it's a different story. They spend a lot of money on campaigns. There's a lot of support by individuals or by certain businesses. But also here, I think this should not lead to a conspiracy theory. Why? Because if you look at the numbers, there was a lot of discussion about Elon Musk and other big supporters of the Republicans at the last election. I once looked at the numbers because I was interested and I learned that the Democrats, for example, got even more money than the Republicans did. So in the end, both parties spent more than a billion, but the amount that the Democrats raised was even higher.

49:43So if you look at these numbers in detail, you will find out, okay, there's a lot of support for the political system. But in the end, the group of people that support parties is a very diverse group and I would not overestimate their influence. I think the best example was the fight that Elon Musk and Trump had just a few months after he got in office. So I think that's the proof that all these theories are, to be honest, not really true. Does this happen like certain media companies and then a certain powerful individual, rich individuals, they'll all come together, they'll all become friends with you and form a certain narrative to sway away the entire audience of people out there or the world power?

50:41Does that happen? No, in ours - You become friends with a lot of people who will come and be like, hey, we are on your side and we'll make sure nothing goes wrong against you. Unfortunately, not at all. I think the moment you get in a political position, the first thing that you learn is that there's a lot of criticism from all sides. And no matter which decision you take, there is always a big amount of people on the other side. So in our system, we have always coalition governments. We have at the moment five political parties in the parliament. So, there is a very wide range of opinions in the political system, which is good, but at the same time, it makes it quite challenging.

51:38But they don't want to become your friends, because I'm assuming the moment you would become powerful, all these large media giants would want to become your friend and probably do certain things to help you out. No, I witnessed it the opposite. I would say because of the fact that I'm center-right, my feeling is you don't get treated that well in the media because of the fact that most journalists, not all of them, but most journalists are more leaning to the left. I think that's one part of the problem of the public debate that we have at the moment in many European countries, also in Germany, for example, that like most of the traditional media is more on the left and the far right has become very powerful on social media.

52:32And I think this is not ideal for our system, but it's a fact. So you will have, for example, a lot of voters on the right that do not believe in what they read or hear or see in traditional media. And on the other hand, if you ask a lot of journalists, they would see social media or new media or some podcasts or independent journalists as a problem for our public debate. So I think that the system is changing. Nobody really knows where it's going to end exactly, but it's definitely not working very well. That's what I would say. How do you win an election? Do you have to control media narrative?

53:38Or is it a political personality? Is it the speeches that you give that people believe in? Is it internal politics and support that because everyone's supporting you and you end up winning? Or is it like extreme amount of money from large business corporates? Like what is the most important factor in order to win an election? So you have to distinguish between the US and Europe. I think it's very different. In the US, for example, you have a two-party system. Money is very important in the campaign. In Europe, you have a multi-party system. There's a lot of public money and less support from businesses or individuals.

54:22So you cannot really compare it. In our system in Europe, I would say you have a certain amount of people that always vote for the same party, no matter which election, no matter who is the candidate. And then, of course, you have people who always take a new decision at every single election. And here, I would say the trend is that personalities become more and more important. so it's more and more relevant who is the party leader and two people follow him and trust him or not so i would say that's that's the new trend if you look at europe in general i would say that there is also a shift to the right so at most of the last elections um there was a shift to centre-right or far-right parties within Europe.

55:22Also, at the next European election, I would expect a further shift to the centre-right and the far-right. And what contributes? Which individual wins? Let's say the right is a sentiment of audience right now. Then there must be a lot of suitable candidates who want this, right? Because it's a multi-party system. What do people believe in? Like who do people believe in? The one who is a very charming speaker? No, I think there it's very difficult to find one aspect. If you ask me, most of the politicians that I met who are successful are quite different. Some are from rural areas, some are from cities, men and women, older, younger, experience outside of politics, no experience at all.

56:23So I would say it's very difficult to say. If you look, for example, at Europe right now, some of them are professional politicians who spent all their life in politics. And then you have, for example, in our neighboring country, Czech Republic, a businessman who became a billionaire and entered politics at the end of his career. And now won the elections the second time. In other countries, you have people like Slovenia, for example, another neighboring country. He's in politics all his life since he's a student. So it's very difficult to say this is the one thing. I think it's always like the full picture of a party and of a person that matters.

57:20Who are the world leaders you like today? Well, I think that there are many great personalities. In Europe, for example, I always worked very well with Mark Rutte, who was Prime Minister of the Netherlands in these days. He's now the Secretary General of NATO. I think he's doing a great job in difficult days for NATO. You have a bunch of successful prime ministers pushing their countries in the right direction. I think that Meloni is doing a great job in Italy, for example. She did a lot of necessary reforms. Italian economy is doing much better than many other countries. So I think there's a number of very successful leaders.

58:22All right. Let's go to your life as a prime minister when you first became, okay, the first 24 hours or like the moment it happened. The moment you got to know that now you're 31, you won the election, then you're the prime minister, or you're going to become the prime minister, right? How were you feeling? What's the first thought that comes in your head? So the way how you describe it, it sounds a bit like in a movie. The reality is, I would say, pretty much different. So first of all, the day of election is a tough day because you get, in our case, it's always on a Sunday. You get some opinion polling the day before on a Saturday.

59:09So you get a feeling how it could look like, but nobody knows if the opinion polling is correct or not. And then during the day you wait and it feels very long. And in our case, it's a much smaller country than India, of course, but still a few million people have to go to vote. So around five o 'clock in the afternoon, you have the first results. And so the whole day is a day that you keep on waiting to hear at five o 'clock what the outcome is. You have different emotions during the day. So a few hours, you think everything will be fine and you're going to win. A few hours, you think everything will be terrible and you're going to lose.

1:00:09So you don't know till the end. And then, of course, the moment you find out, in my case, it was very positive because I ran at two elections and both times we won. So five o 'clock on these two Sundays was very emotional and positive. But then the minute after you realize you have a lot of things in your mind that you have to do. So before the first election, because the campaign was so tough and so intense, I agreed with my team that we are going to celebrate if we win and we are not going to work on Monday and we only go back to work on Tuesday after elections. But the truth is that we won the elections.

1:00:58We were super happy about it for a few minutes. And then we realized that the next step is that we have to build a coalition. And in these days, we had the feeling that probably the second and the third would try to build a coalition against us. So the reality was that we were celebrating. but the idea to skip the Monday and go back to work on Tuesday, of course it did not work out. Everybody was in office Monday morning early in order to figure out how it's possible to build a coalition and how to make it happen. The reality, especially in a system like ours where you have to build coalitions, is that the election is the first step But then you have to work hard and it normally takes a few months to negotiate a governmental program with a coalition partner, which is also very tough and takes a lot of time and energy and nearly feels like a second campaign that you have to do.

1:02:10This was the first time when you became prime minister? Yeah. This was right, we found out these. That's Elisabeth Köstinger, she was secretary of our party. So this was your first ceremony? It looks like, yeah. So the colours were always the same, so it could have been 2017 or 2019, but no, here it says 2017, so it was the first campaign. So it was the first campaign, first time you took oath. yeah and after oath the reality must have hit in actually before oath only a lot of responsibility must have hit in right that you have absolutely not do things what is the what are the first document that you receive as a prime minister the moment you become prime minister what do you first receive what information what document what classified things that you get which nobody gets to know?

1:03:10Well, of course, you get a lot of briefings, but - What's the first briefing? The first thing in our system is after the election that you have to negotiate with the other parties in order to build a coalition. The moment you are able to build a coalition, you decide on the ministers, on the structure of the government, and then you get started. Of course, then you get a lot of like briefings and also intelligence briefings and you try to do what you promised in the election campaign. Besides the politicians, you have a big bureaucracy in our system and there are different systems around the world, but in ours, the bureaucracy does not change.

1:03:56They stay no matter who wins the elections. So I would say there is no risk of losing information because bureaucracy stays the same. And these people keep the information no matter who takes over the ministry. So who do you have the first meeting with? The bureaucrats? After the negotiation, after you've become the Prime Minister, you've taken the oath, then? There is a council of ministers at the governmental meeting, which is the main meeting once a week. And of course, besides that, you have your role within the parliament. You have to work with the bureaucracy. and in our case as a member state of the European Union, like also the European Council and the interaction between the 27 member states and the interaction with Brussels is an important one.

1:04:58And that's on day one? All of this happens on day one? I would say all of them at a certain extent happens on day one, yeah. And who decides what reaches your desk? Well, that's the most important thing. you have to build a great team around you. In our case, it's called Cabinet, where every minister and also the prime minister has a small team of 10 to 20 people around him. And to be honest, this is key. I always try to hire the best people for these positions because if this team is performing, the minister or the prime minister can easily do a great job. If this team is not performing, then you can be the smartest person on earth and you will not succeed.

1:05:52So you have ministers, cabinet ministers, right? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about who are the people who are around you. Yeah, that was what I meant. And how many people around you? 10 to 20. and all 20 can decide what comes at your desk or only like two or three people like you have one cos no there's a structure like in every company you have a head of office yeah who is running this team um and then you have experts for different areas and they are working with the bureaucracy which is huge yeah so this small group has to help you to manage 10 thousands of people in the bureaucracy and at the same time helps you to be as good as possible prepared for your work.

1:06:44So 10, 20 people, but then all 20 people have equal amount of access to you? I would say in general, yes. But of course, sometimes some issues are more important than others. Yeah, it depends. During the days of COVID, there was a different focus than during the migration crisis or now when there is a war with Ukraine. And who do you end up in throughout all your years in office? Who are like two or three people who do you end up spending most amount of time with? Is it the head of office or head of press or military guys? It's all of them. It's all of them. It's definitely the head of office.

1:07:24it's the head of communication, it's the people responsible for different fields where you have a focus on. And who are like one or two people who are always with you? No matter where you go, because you have your own people, right? Yeah, but there's not one person who is always with you. It always depends with what you are dealing with. So for example, there is one advisor on foreign policy, there's one advisor on EU, there's one advisor on economy. So it depends what you're working on or whom you are meeting. Okay. But not even your chief of staff or personal secretary is always with you? No, because the chief of staff has to run the whole thing.

1:08:17So if he's with you in every meeting, he's not able to do his job properly. So it's always a mixture. These key people are people that you need in many meetings, but at the same time, if they are only in meetings with you the whole day, they cannot do the rest of their job. So you always have to find also a good combination how they spend their time in order to be efficient as a team. Who's one person who's, which is a bizarre thing to have around you as a prime minister. Like I was looking at US president's pictures. Like there's this one person who's with a printer always around him. Have you seen that?

1:09:04No. There's this one person who's with a printer all the time. Like he's just walking around with a printer if the president needs anything. We were very digital also in these days. Like right now, I'm just saying like, I think Donald Trump has it. This person who's always with the printer. Is there anyone like that who's around you? No, no, nothing, nothing bizarre. I would tell you, but not really. No. And did you keep all the people who were around you? They were all new or were they from the last prime minister? No, they were all new. And it was a combination of people that I worked with at the beginning when I started in politics, people I worked with in the field of integration, people from my days in the foreign ministry, and then people that I hired in addition when I became prime minister.

1:10:00So it was also a good combination from many different areas. As a prime minister, when you hire a team around you, when you look for people around you, what is one or two traits that you look for? Is it trust or expertise to manage diplomacy and bureaucracy or experience or just be like, just revolution, rebel, new people or new ideas? It's always a combination because - What's the highest? Look, to be honest, you need all of that. Because if you trust someone, but he doesn't perform, he can be a great friend, but he should not be somebody who works for you. If you trust someone and he performs, but he's not brave enough to push necessary changes, he will not be able to make your life easier in achieving your goals.

1:11:00So you always need all these aspects. I think ideally it's a combination of being loyal, being great in the area you work it and being brave enough to push for necessary reforms even if people fight back. How many intelligence agencies do you have? Internal and external. Internal and external. And those people must stay the same throughout, or do you change them as you become prime minister, the head of - No, it's part of the bureaucracy. And you don't have power to change it? Because how in US, they make every president have their own candidates to choose who's this head of CIA or head of FBI?

1:11:48Yeah. Look, in our system, it's different than in the US. So in many European systems, there is no automatical change in bureaucracy because of political elections. In the US, it's a completely different system, which means that not only the ministers change, but as you said, also the key people in the bureaucracy, also the key players in intelligence agencies, or also the diplomats here, for example, all their ambassadors are political appointees. So that's a different system than ours and the system in most European countries. So how do you know that the intelligence agencies are telling you the truth?

1:12:34Well, you never know. But the main advantage of political positions or the main advantage of being prime minister is that you can speak to a lot of people, that you can call a lot of people and they will pick up the phone. So what I always try to do is to get a lot of information from different people inside my country, outside my country, people who are politically with me, people who are politically on another side. And I think if you do it like this, you always get different opinions. But in the end, you get the right view on every single issue. So that was always my approach and I was always very happy with that style.

1:13:22And do you have a personal decision-making framework? Because as a prime minister, as head of state, you have to make decisions all the time. And you know that every decision will benefit a lot of people, but also might affect a lot of people at the same time. And there's no one decision which is right. The most important thing is to be aware that not all your decisions can be right. Yeah. And you have to be okay with it because I know a lot of people, because of the fact that they know that not all decisions can be right, get very scared to take decisions. And I think that's one of the main problems in politics.

1:14:05You have to be okay with the fact that not everything can be right. And you have to be brave to take decisions because that's the main thing you have to do in such a position. And that's what I always tried. But is there a way or a framework or a concept that you have in your mind before you take a decision? Or is it always gut driven in the end? What I always tried is to talk with many different people who have different background and views on a certain issue. And this helped me to get different information. And then in the end, use this as a basis to take my decision. And I'm somebody, I love to work with people.

1:14:53I love to work within a team. So I was never lonely in this decision-making process. It was always something that happened within the team. And that always gave me a lot of comfort to have intensive discussions within the team that took sometimes the whole day or till late at night till we were at the point where we felt ready to take a decision. Do you hire external consultants to help you? I would say that's the wrong framing but yes we try to have a lot of people in our system from outside of politics So I always tried to have a lot of exchange with the private sector, with business people, with people from universities.

1:15:47I think this exchange is very helpful. If you're a politician and you only communicate with other politicians or the bureaucracy, I think that's a key problem. So we always try to do it in a different way. But do you end up hiring, let's say the BCG or McKinsey's of the world? Not as - A lot of governments do that, right? Not as companies, but yes, my head of cabinet worked at BCG before, my deputy head of cabinet worked at McKinsey before. So I appreciate the structure and the skill set that people learn when they work in these companies. Do you have friends when you become prime minister? Of course.

1:16:41Or is it very lonely? No, not lonely at all. To be honest, my friends did not change. So I have a few good friends from my days at school, from university, from my early days when I started in politics. So it's a mixture and they're always the same. It hasn't changed. No, like the new people, because now everybody in the country wants to become your friend. Nah, I don't know how it is in India. In Austria, I would say it's very different. So you have a few close friends that are your personal friends. In my case, as I told you, from school, from university, from my early days in politics. And then you have people that you like or that you work with or that you have to do with because of your job.

1:17:37But that's not close friends or close personal friends. And of course, then you have to serve your country. So you have a lot of people where you have interaction with, but that's also like, I don't know how to describe it, but it's not like deep friendship. And do you trust as you become prime minister, like new people, because everyone who wants to become your friend, they would want some kind of transaction. So how do you trust like who is just there for transaction and who's there to just genuinely become your friend? I would say it depends a bit how you define friendship. Like for me, close personal friends are people that I know for many years that I would go on vacation with together.

1:18:31So that's my close personal friends. And this group is very limited. And I think if you keep this group very limited... Tell me a security, like how does it change when you're not a prime minister versus when you become prime minister? Because there must be some protocol you must be following. Of course, there's some protocol, But I would say, of course, there's some protocol, but it's not as most people think. So if you look at people who are in office, all of them have an iPhone. So it's not so different to yours or mine. All of them have normal conversations with people. and yes of course there is some kind of protocol if you have calls with the US or other superpowers sometimes in meetings within Brussels they try to keep it confidential which is not always easy so sometimes there are meetings they are without phones but in today's world it's not so easy I would say and when you meet or when you call other world leaders, everything is recorded?

1:19:51No, not at all. Everything is secured line. But how do you know that the other country is not recording or anything? You mean that the other countries record? Of course, nobody knows. Like you can use an open line or you can use apps that you also use like WhatsApp or Signal. But is it possible that somebody listens to that? Of course, it's technically possible. Yeah. So you're always cautious when you talk to someone else or do you trust other world leaders? Well, I think it's good to have a relaxed approach on that. If you do things that scare you to death, if somebody knows, then you shouldn't be in such a position.

1:20:36And that in private conversations, people sometimes talk a bit different than in a public statement. That's also a reality. So I think a relaxed approach with that is the right thing. Would you in a private conversation formulate things a bit different than in your podcast? Sometimes probably yes. Would you probably do a joke that you would not do in front of the camera? Sometimes probably yes. If somebody knows that, would it kill you? no because like everybody is a human being and that's normal and i think like the more often people will find out that this is normal life yeah and that every person who has an and that every person who has a powerful position also is a human being in the end yeah the more normal it will get.

1:21:37Describe me step by step tell me about your day as a prime minister give me one of your busiest days like what would you do where at what time would you wake up what's next I want to know step by step give me the most dumbed down version. I always stood up early in the morning I did sports in the morning then I went to the office. What time would you wake up? Around six, something like that. Then you would go play tennis? No, I went for a run or did some like went to the gym and then I went to the office. I always traveled a lot. That means I would say in average, I was probably two days a week outside of the country, probably one day a week traveling around within the country and the rest of the week I was in the office.

1:22:27So probably normally half a day off sometimes one day off so yeah not so not so different to and what's your what was your biggest priority as a prime minister what is your biggest priority because you must be getting bombarded with thousands of work or important matters every day it's foreign relations it's intelligence is immigration, the NATO conversation, the public health care. My biggest priority was always to get done what we promised in the election. So I always tried to fulfill what we said before. So for example, in my first government, we had a tough approach on migration, we cut red tape, we reduced the taxes, we managed a governmental budget surplus.

1:23:28So these were things that like, it's easy to promise these things, but it's difficult to deliver. So I always had a strong focus on getting these things done. Okay. And can a large country or the powerful country bully a smaller country? Of course. They do that? Like US and China, can they bully? Of course, but I think what we always managed quite well is to have a good relation with most countries in the world and especially with the superpowers. Austria is a neutral country. We are part of the European Union. We always had good relations with the West and the East. So I think we always managed this very well.

1:24:17How do you manage to have relationship with Russia and US at the same time? You're not a member of NATO, right? Austria is not a member of NATO. I would say in the past, this was possible. Now, of course, it has changed completely because with the war in Ukraine, the position of the West and especially of the European Union is very clear and there is no relationship at all with Russia. But 10 years ago, 15 years ago, of course, the world looked different in these days. You have met Vladimir Putin multiple times. You have met Donald Trump as head of state. So how both of their approaches are different when it comes to leadership or negotiation style or talking to them?

1:25:06Well, they are very different. So I would say Putin is very controlled, very prepared. I would say in many aspects, as he's described in the media, and Trump is a very untypical politician. Yeah. He's not diplomatic at all. Yeah. and so whoever meets him the first time and expects a classical political conversation is surprised because he's just very different. I think that's also one of the reasons why for some European leaders, it feels so difficult to work with him because he's very different than most of the other politicians. Did you find it difficult when you were having a conversation with him?

1:26:05Because you've described his negotiation tactic before, Sahil. Yeah, look, we are a small country, so there's no negotiation between a nine million country and the superpowers in the world. If there's a negotiation, it's between the US and the EU at this level. But I met Trump and Putin and Xi Jinping. And my meeting with Trump was not difficult at all. It was very interesting because he's so different. My meeting with him was very friendly. It was not problematic at all. But yeah, it was different than typical other political meetings. What was the most interesting part? Tell me one thing about all three, the names that you have taken right now?

1:26:51Well, I think with Xi Jinping, you really feel that they are long-term thinking and that there is a very clear strategy for China and China's role in the world. Putin is very cold, very prepared.

1:27:19nothing happens by accident and Trump is very different, very undiplomatic and always good for a surprise. Always good for a surprise. And what do you think is, you said China has a long-term thinking, right? What do you think is China's ambition today? Well, my feeling is that China believes that they dominated the world most of the time in the past and that they were always ahead. That those years where Europe or others were ahead are a mistake or just like a short period of time and that they will always remain to be the dominant power in the world and to be honest when it comes to tech and AI we have to admit that they are far ahead there is a race between the US and China Europe is playing no role in this race and if If you ask me today who I think that is going to win this race, I think that there are good chances that China will be ahead in the end.

1:28:47Also when you look at the rest of the world, China is very dominant in many countries in the world with a totally different approach while the West tried to work with development, cooperation or humanitarian aid in Africa and other parts of the world. China had a totally different approach of investment and creating influence. And I would say they have been very successful with that so far. And based on your experience, because you said that there's a race going on, right? And Europe has lost clearly at this point. What is the first sign that the nation is losing? I think the main problem is always if you lose competitiveness.

1:29:44So in our globalized world, especially for wealthy European countries that are export driven, if you lose competitiveness, that means that you lose wealth. And if you lose wealth, that means that you are not able to finance anymore, the social welfare system, the schools, the security, the pension system. So everything where a lot of people still think that Europe is attractive because of these systems. And I think there's a big risk for Europe that if we don't change a lot of things, that things will get worse. Things will get worse from Europe. Do you think America is making similar mistakes as Europe?

1:30:37I think the US is not really comparable because if you look at the US, they still always manage to have a very strong economic growth. It's mainly tech and AI driven, and this is what Europe is missing. And so I would say that in general, because of the strong economic growth, there's always a reason to be very optimistic for the US. But when you look at from the inside, right, a lot of people are getting divided. and that was one of the key themes in Europe as well, that inside people were actually getting divided and that's why a lot of European leaders were responding to press and media for short-term gains, not thinking long-term strategically.

1:31:27You have also said that before, right? So do you think US is doing the same thing? They're responding to the immediate now and getting more and more polarized? Of course, there's always a risk in a Western liberal democracy. If you have elections every few years and then you complain that politicians are thinking in election terms, it's okay to complain, but it's also like a reality in our system. Of course, that's different in other systems like in China that are not democratic. But I would say the main thing why I'm always optimistic about the US is because of the economy. The US always manages it to be a driver of innovation and to be extremely strong when it comes to tech and AI.

1:32:24If you look at AI, AI is not one sector of economy. AI will dominate and change all sectors of our economy. And because of the fact that it's so disruptive, I think it's really key to be strong in this field and the US is managing it and is one of the two super nations in this field. So that's the reason if you ask me, for the next 10, 15 years, I'm very optimistic on the US economy compared to Europe and other parts of the world. And compared with China, who do you think, which economy is more predictable? I think it's very difficult to say, but on AI and tech, I think these are by far at the moment the two leading nations in the world.

1:33:16And then you have some smaller countries like Israel and others that are also hubs for talents and compared to their size are extremely innovative. But the two main superpowers are definitely the US and China. Forget AI for a second. Like just look at every sector, everything that's going on in the world. How do you see it today? What sense do you make? Well, I think that we will continue to live in a multi-polar world and the US and China will stay the superpowers. I don't think that there will be just one superpower in the end that dominates everything. And do you think everything which is happening right now, is it happening good, bad, okay?

1:34:13Are we headed towards the crash? Are we headed towards instability? Are we headed towards unpredictability or it's just, this is normal? Look, people always easily are quite negative and think that it has never been as tough as now and now we live in so difficult times. I think that the truth is there's always something good and something bad. There's always ups and downs. If you look at the world today, of course, we live in a more unsecure world. There's a war going on in Ukraine. There's a war in Iran. There are new geopolitical tensions. But on the other hand, so many people have been lifted out of poverty.

1:35:02There's a lot of positive development in many countries around the world. A lot of countries are doing economically quite well. for others that have been successful for a long time like Europe, it has become much more difficult. So I think it's wrong to always believe that the days where we live in are so difficult and the world was much better in the past. I think that's the wrong approach. If you ask me, I think the next few years will be extremely interesting because of AI, because AI will be so disruptive. I think we do not even have a clue like how strong this transformation will be. It will bring more productivity and will lead to more wealth and growth.

1:36:00But at the same time, it will also change a lot of jobs dramatically. and so a lot of people will need to adapt to that and I think this will really be transformative and I think this will dominate the next years to come. Do you think the big change in world order is coming? Like till now everybody followed the top three, four institutions in the world like the UN and one country was dominating everything, right? Now we have two countries. in some ways. And a lot of people argue that going forward because of rise of AI and technology, largely the change in order will happen and it will be run by the tech billionaires of the world.

1:36:52Yeah, I don't believe in the last sentence, but of course we live in a multipolar world. You don't believe the tech billionaires or large tech companies will run the world? No, I think that the large tech companies will have a major role. world, but it will not be only them running the world. As you said, I think it will be geographically like we will have different centers. We will probably continue since we have the war in Ukraine live in a way in a split world and a divided. We will probably continue. I feel since the war in Ukraine that we live in kind of a divided world. I I think this will probably continue.

1:37:39As we said before, we will have superpowers like the US and China, which will stay very dominant. I think that we will have some countries that will do extremely well. For example, I'm very optimistic on the Gulf countries. Of course, it's now difficult with the war in Iran, but in general, I'm very optimistic for the whole region. And of course, tech companies will have their role, but it's not that they will alone dominate the world. You spoke about Gulf countries. Do you think countries in West Asia, they've lost trust after the recent war? Like everybody wanted to be there. Everybody felt like that's the safest place.

1:38:31Everybody felt like that's the future. So everybody wanted to be in UAE, involved with Dubai and Abu Dhabi especially. It will stay like this. I'm very optimistic. But now that you, like, have you seen any change in the world? I have a very positive view on this part of the world. And if you ask me, I think short term, there are difficulties for sure. But mid and long term, I'm very optimistic. I think that what the UAE built is exceptional. And of course, some people left. But most of the people who left at the beginning of the war already came back. And you will see that this only will have a short-term impact and not a long-term impact on the UAE.

1:39:19You don't feel it'll be a problem at all? When you meet other world leaders now, do you see a sense of some uncertainty? Of course, there's now some uncertainty And as long as there's a war in Iran and things are not solved, the situation is not perfect. But the UAE is an extremely resilient country. They managed to be super successful, exceptional in so many different aspects. and you will see that they will be very quick in adopting, in dealing with the situation. And that's the reason why I'm very optimistic. And on Iran, look, this regime will not continue forever. And the moment there's a regime change and this country opens up, a country of nearly 100 million people, This will be another boost for the region.

1:40:25So in general, I'm very optimistic. Where do you see for a young person, where are better opportunities in terms of job, in terms of startup, in terms of just, let's say, if I'm young, 20 something, I want to start my career and make a lot of wealth. America or West Asia? I think both are great places. I took my decision. I started my business in Middle East or as you call it West Asia. I spent at least a week, a month in Abu Dhabi and I really enjoyed it. And I think the combination of talent and capital that you find in this region is exceptional. and I'm very happy that, yeah, I started my company together with my co-founders between Tel Aviv, Abu Dhabi and Vienna.

1:41:20So for us, that's the perfect fit. And circling back to your policy against immigrants versus America, America is a great model where immigrants come in and it works because we were talking about tech, AI, largely every major company is run and led by immigrants right so this country has definitely shown a successful model of inviting immigrants and leading it yeah i think what did america do right i think you you have to be precise it's not uh in favor or against immigrants it's the question um who is allowed to come and who is not allowed to come it's the question who takes the decision And I was always against the policy where the smugglers decide who is allowed to enter the country and not the government.

1:42:15So if you ask me, illegal immigration, that's the big problem. Uncontrolled immigration, that's the big problem. And within Europe, for example, you anyway have the freedom of movement, which means that people from other European countries can decide to work and to live in Austria or Germany. And it's super easy for them to move and get started there. But illegal migration and big flows of illegal migration, that's a problem for our societies. But what did America do right? Because that's, for any country, I suppose, China as an exception model, but attracting immigrants and attracting talent from all around the world is a very essential part.

1:43:06Yeah, I'm not sure if only America is a positive example. I would say that all those countries who really control their immigration are successful. If you look at the UAE, for example, if you look at Singapore or other countries, if you attract talent, but at the same time, You don't let anybody in who causes trouble, then you can build a great society out of it. But if you have too many troublemakers, then everything falls apart. And if you look at the US, I think it's a combination of both. I think they attracted a lot of talent, which definitely was good for the US. But also, if you look at the public opinion, there's a lot of problem as well with illegal immigration.

1:44:00So I think it's not about the question migration, yes or no. It's always the question, who is coming? Is it people who are contributing or not? Is it legal or illegal? I think these are the main questions that have to be discussed. But you can never decide whether the immigrants will contribute or no, right? In the beginning, you open doors, then immigrants come, they struggle a lot, they hustle a lot, and they end up becoming something. I completely disagree. I completely disagree. Why? Because a lot of immigrants who are probably the billionaires today in America, they came as broke people who left their country out of...

1:44:39Of course, you can always have positive examples, absolutely. But in general, it's very like easy to say if if a model works or not so if you attract people that are well educated that have a job the moment they arrive that have an income that pay taxes that learn the language it's different than if you attract people that don't speak the language don't find a job get paid through the welfare system. So there's a big difference. And I think the problem with the migration crisis in Europe was that, of course, you have a lot of examples where it went well, but you also have a large number of people where it was very difficult to integrate them in our societies.

1:45:34Got it. Okay. Talking about entrepreneurship, You are an entrepreneur now. Yes. You left the office. Why did you leave politics? You were the prime minister. Why did you leave? It was very complicated and not very pleasant because my first coalition was with the far right. My second coalition was with the Greens, which was very difficult. and they controlled the Ministry for Justice, did a few personal changes there on a top level. And after COVID, they started two investigations against me. And to be honest, for me, it was very frustrating to do my work on one hand And on the other hand, always had to fight back on these investigations.

1:46:35And I became father for the first time exactly in these days. So I decided after 10 years in government to leave office and start a new chapter in my life. And to be honest, for me, it was a great decision because first of all, I had a court case out of these investigations. which I won. Second, becoming father and have a bit more time with my kid than I would have had in office was also a great experience. And third, I talked so much about entrepreneurship and the need that people are brave and start a company and create jobs when I was in office, that at a certain point of time, it felt right to do it myself.

1:47:27So, yeah, it's now four years since I have left. And to be honest, it was a very interesting journey in the last few years. And yeah, I always loved serving my country, but I also enjoyed pretty much the last four years as an entrepreneur and the father of two kids now. So you were the party there. They put cases on you while you were the prime minister? Yes. Something that sounds a bit weird for many people.

1:48:03While you're still in the office as prime minister, you were going on trials and you were fighting your court case. I think if you look at many Western countries, unfortunately, using these investigations have become political tools in many campaigns or even in many political systems. And I think it's not a positive development of our Western liberal democracies, because whenever something like this starts, you have a lot of attention. You have thousands of media articles. You have a lot of people that believe it. And in the end, it sometimes takes years. The outcome is zero. And I think this is a development that is not very helpful for our system.

1:48:57But unfortunately, if you look around in Europe and also in the US, it has become more and more part of the political fights and campaigns. And do you think that they put case on you and then you ended up winning, right? and in the end all those cases were thrashed and they were all wrong because you then won the court case right do you think you would have won the court case while you were still in office if you would have not left politics yeah i i have you i first of all you never know but yes i think so yeah um or do you think they would have made it impossible for you to win if you were still in the politics no i i think i would have won anyway but um it's very problematic that something like this takes years and yeah that it needs a lot of money a lot of time and years till you can prove that everything was just made up and bullshit but yeah unfortunately that's part of the reality of our system now what i'm trying to understand is these were these competitors who wanted office, right?

1:50:14They put in cases on you. They wanted your party to lose, you to lose. Then, and then at some point after, out of frustration of all of this, you decided to leave politics. And then after that, in a couple of years, you ended up winning. Do you think it was possible for you to win if you would have not left the politics? I think so. I think so. Yeah. But, but it's like - But then why did you leave? Well, as I told you before, I think it was a bunch of reasons. So first of all, if you do something for 10 years, especially if you're a young person, that's a long time. Second, I had two election campaigns, the migration crisis, COVID.

1:51:01So I also felt a bit tired and exhausted. it. Then I really felt that it was unfair to have these investigations. So I had a lack of trust in our system, which was also not a positive motivation to continue to work. and the birth of my son was also a main driver why I thought, okay, it's a good timing to open a new chapter in life. And to be honest, looking back now, I'm very thankful that I took this decision because I also learned so much new things in the last few years. It gave me a completely new perspective to be an entrepreneur, to start a business, to spend most of my time outside of Austria, outside of the European Union in totally different systems to see the advantages and disadvantages of other regions of this world.

1:52:18So that was also like a great time for me personally. Do you miss office? Well, I always try not to say no as an answer to this question because if you say no, then it feels like politics is something negative. And I feel the opposite. So I always enjoyed it a lot. It was a huge privilege to serve Austria and the people of Austria and I always enjoyed it. But at the same time, it was the right decision for me to do something new. And I also enjoy what I'm doing now. So I'm very thankful for both experiences. Tell me one good thing about being a prime minister or one perk, which you don't have anymore as an entrepreneur.

1:53:16Well, I don't know if you don't have it anymore, but I would say what is very positive about being in office is if you're interested in different opinions and perspectives, nearly everybody picks up the phone if you call. So if you have an issue where you need an answer or a solution, or if you try to take the right decision and you want to hear very different opinions and a wide range of different perspectives, nearly everybody, even people who don't like you or who don't vote for you, nearly everybody picks up the phone and gives you an answer. So I think that's something very positive. If you are interested in different opinions, you can always get it and then try to take your decision.

1:54:11And why did you decide to become an entrepreneur? To be honest, it was a tough decision and I struggled with this decision a bit at the beginning. Why? Because I always worked in very big organizations. So for me, at this time, it felt the most natural to take a management position in a big corporate and there were a few offers and I really considered it. But at the same time, like a few friends told me, you always like worked like an entrepreneur. You did it in politics, but like the spirit was the same. And so I thought it might make sense. And in the end, I think the main reason was I spoke so much about entrepreneurship when I was in politics.

1:55:05I always said that we need people that start companies, that create jobs. So I felt even if it's tough, it's the right thing to do. And so in the end, thanks God, I was brave enough to, yeah. What's your story? How did you meet your co-founder? How did you get into this business? To be honest, it was a great coincidence. So when I left office, the first company that I started was an advisory firm where I worked with a few different organizations and individuals. I worked with Peter Thiel and I worked in the UAE. I figured out very quickly that at a certain point of time, I would like to do something more entrepreneurial than just being an advisor.

1:55:55So I started to travel around and looked for potential partners to start something together with. And I was at a few places in the US and also in the Middle East. And one day I went to Tel Aviv and a friend of mine told me that he would gather the most interesting tech people in Israel and arrange a dinner for me. And when I arrived at the airport, he texted me, I'm so sorry, my wife is in hospital. I cannot come, but I sent somebody to pick you up. So I was standing at the airport, had this message on my phone, thought, okay, two days, a waste of time because without him, it will not really work out.

1:56:47So I already looked if there were earlier flights back, but then there was the guy whom he sent standing next to me at the airport and looked at me and said, are you Sebastian? And I said, yes. And I said, who are you? And he said, I'm here to babysit you for the next two days. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, I'm your driver. So I entered his car. And we drove to the city center and I did a phone call in the car so we didn't really talk a lot. And then at the first meeting, I realized that everybody was very respectful and everybody knew him. So I told him, okay, so what are you doing when you are not driving me around or when you are not my babysitter?

1:57:40And he said, ah, you don't know? I said, no, I don't know. And he said, I'm the founder of NSO. I invented the spy software Pegasus. So I did my meetings, met a lot of interesting people. But after the meetings, I told him, look, give me a demo and show me what you built. And he's a very charismatic person. So after the two days in Tel Aviv, I in the end told him, look, thank you for for taking care and helping out because my friend was not able to arrange all that. I really enjoyed it. But what I really would like to do is I would like to start something with you, but not offensive cyber. And he laughed and said, that's great because I would also like to do something with you.

1:58:31But what do you expect? I'm the founder of the biggest offensive cyber company in the world. So I told him, look, I was prime minister. Now I'm not anymore. So probably something in your life is going to change as well. And then give me a call. And a few months later, he left the company, sold his shares. And I was literally the first person that he called. And he said, do you still want to do something together? I said, of course. So we met and then And it took us a while to figure out what to do exactly. And in the end, together with a third co-founder, we started Dream, an AI cyber company with the idea that in the past, nations were super nations if they had nuclear.

1:59:20And we thought in the future, nations will be super nations that control cyber, AI, and quantum. Quantum is still very early, so we wanted to focus on AI and cyber. And we started Dream, a company that now does sovereign AI and AI-based cybersecurity for countries in Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Europe. Nice. So earlier, you were in the... This is very interesting. So you as a prime minister earlier was in a position where you wanted to protect your country, right? And your co-founder was in a position where he wanted to attack people and gather information. Now you've come together to defend and build a mechanism a lot because he was the one who would enter people's computers and software.

2:00:14He understands what are the vulnerabilities. So now you're building the defense mechanism. Yeah, absolutely. So he also, of course, worked only for governments. Yeah. because it's a very regulated business and industry, but he worked for government and agencies to fight crime with his offensive cyber products. And yeah, when we started the company, the bet was that probably the best knowledge to defend critical infrastructure and governments is gathered by people who have offensive experience. And our idea was that if we combine all the experience from the offensive cyber with the superpower of AI, we can build a platform that is able to protect against the future risks of AI-based cyber attacks.

2:01:18This was the idea when we started. And to be honest, it happened exactly like this. Because if you look at the big threats today, it's not hackers anymore. The big threat today is that hackers have superpower because they use AI. To give you an example, in the past, if somebody wanted to orchestrate the massive attack, he needed a big team, a lot of money and months to find a few vulnerabilities, so-called zero days, in order to be able to start an attack. Today, if a hacker, just one person has the right AI capacities, he gets not a few, but hundreds of zero days and not within a few months, but within a few minutes.

2:02:15So I think that we will see cyber attacks at big scale in the future that nobody was thinking about a few years ago and the only way to protect is with ai when you sit with your with potential partners and clients who are trusting you now do they find it more difficult to trust your partner because he was earlier in the business of spying not do they find it more comforting because they feel like he knows everything and probably the best absolutely Because look, if you work with somebody, especially in this field, you want to reduce your risk. And you can do that if you work with the best talent in the world.

2:03:09And the best talent to defend will always be people who have a lot of experience on the other side. Yeah. So I think one of the reasons why the company is so successful is because we were really able to gather great talent and to train a model, which is exceptional because, of course, what is doable with AI today, but also because of the quality of the people working on it. this is such an incredible startup i would say i mean just i i don't know the exact mechanics of what exactly you do but just from the idea point of view this sounds so exciting because he was with israel the country known for their accuracy in cyber in cyber and in gathering the information and he was one of the key people in the world to help them do that and pegasus we all know what that software has created in the world in fact india knows a lot because there were a lot of people who a lot of people who were compromised because of that that software that whatever you call that virus right he built that and now he's helping you build a defense mechanism around it on the paper it sounds so like too good to be real no it was a long journey yeah because um The idea is easy, but to really build it is a lot of hard work.

2:04:47So when we started three and a half years ago, we started just us. Then we hired a management, we hired the first employees and we built it step by step. Now one month ago, we closed our last round. We raised 260 million at the valuation of 3 billion. and we are now working in several countries in Europe and also in Middle East and in Southeast Asia. And besides the cybersecurity platform that we offer, we also entered in the field of sovereign AI. So we built AI solutions that governments can own, operate and control 100 % themselves. Solutions that also work on-prem and air-gapped, so with no connection to the internet, which is something that you need, especially if you have sensitive data.

2:05:48So I think because of the world we live in and all the tensions that we have, you will see that more and more countries will try to be more independent, to have their sovereign solutions when it comes to AI. Because as we discussed before, AI is not like only one aspect or only one area of the economy. It's so transformative that it will become part of the critical infrastructure. And every country, as it controls its energy infrastructure or its water supply, every country will also try to be as independent as possible on their AI. I have last two, three questions for you. Probably short questions, but in your experience as a prime minister and now as an entrepreneur, what are three things which every country should control and just keep it to themselves and not give it to someone else?

2:07:00for a great future, for a great outcome to protect their country, surely? I think it's a difficult question, but I will try to give you my thoughts. So first of all, I think for a country, it really matters who lives there. What society are we talking about? So coming back to what we discussed before, I think every country should control who immigrates, who enters the country, who is part of the country, who is part of the society. Second, security at a certain level. Every country should be able to defend its internal and external security. And third, I think in the modern world that we are living, the third thing is probably to control its own data and also to make a maximum out of it.

2:08:08You don't feel every country should have their own sources of energy and not be dependent on other countries for energy? Ideally, yes, but it's not so easy. Because of course, energy is relevant, rare earths are relevant, but if you look at the world, it's not so easy for every single country. I think Austria is in a very privileged position when it comes to that. I have the last three questions which I ask everybody. Okay, first is, when were you the most powerless in your life? When did you feel the most powerless? I think in the days when they started the investigations against me, because I didn't do anything wrong.

2:09:06I worked hard 24-7.

2:09:14And it was very difficult to fight back. And I just knew it will take a long time. And I knew in the meanwhile, there's not a lot that I can do against these wrong accusers. and I lost a lot of trust in the system in these days. So probably my answer would be these days. What scares a prime minister of a country? Well, I would say in my days, it was definitely the first days of COVID,

2:09:50because there were so many decisions to be taken. and at the same time there was such a lack of knowledge so we we did not have enough information and it was super difficult to to get information in these days um because it was such a new phenomenon to the world so that scared you though losing lives and yeah what would you do in cover that. Yeah, and also like to be in a situation where you know that you have to take decisions and at the same time, it's impossible to get all the information that you would like to have in order to take the right decisions. But what my question was more around, let me be more specific with, not a specific situation, like COVID was a specific situation.

2:10:45I'm asking on an everyday day basis, we all live with certain fears. Sometimes we have fear of losing trust, losing money, losing family member, security of ourself or business loss or whatever. Everybody has their own fears, right? What was your biggest fear as a prime minister? That I'm asking, not a specific situation. I think my biggest fear was always looting control because you have to manage such a big team um so many people involved uh you cannot oversee everything but at the same time you are responsible for everything yeah yeah you cannot take every decision yourself but at the same time uh people will always hold you accountable for every single decision that is taken within your system somewhere.

2:11:39And that was every day, I would say my biggest fear. Would you wake up with that fear every day? I woke up with this fear every day and I went to bed with this fear every day. Okay. The last question is, I ask this everyone and it's about personal cost, right? What is the cost of becoming the youngest prime minister in the world? To be honest, I think there was no real cost and I do not regret it because I'm very thankful for the 10 years in government. it was stressful, it was intense, it was a lot of pressure but I don't have the feeling that I missed something or that I would have preferred to spend my time in a different way.

2:12:41Do people still treat you differently? What do you mean by differently? Like when you were in the office people would deal with you very differently. Let's say every restaurant owner would treat you very differently. Today, do they do the same thing? So I don't know if it's really about being prime minister or the title or a position. I think you also know it, know if you are a public figure, yeah, and people know you. Of course, it's a bit different. Yeah. But we live a very normal life. I really enjoy it with my kids, with my family, with my friends. We don't do anything special, but we have a great life.

2:13:28Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you for spending time with me and doing your first long form conversation with me. Thank you. It's an honor. I genuinely enjoyed all our interactions first time in the car then dinners and probably everywhere every time I've spoken to you I don't say this very often and my audience knows this very well every time I meet you I get such warm and humble energy it makes me it it inspires me to do more and become better version of myself. Thank you for doing that. That's very kind. But to be honest, I'm very impressed by what you built. Building the biggest podcast in India and many other countries around the world and at your age is very impressive and inspiring.

2:14:26And thank you for the conversation. Thank you so much. Let me tell you my first impression of you and first dinner with you. I, when we first met. Yeah, in Abu Dhabi. Yeah. So we were at a dinner table and obviously we met in a car, but then first time we had a conversation was on a dinner table. it was a dinner table where i'm sitting next to the youngest prime minister of the world then i'm sitting in front of another prime minister who's from another nation then a health minister and then there's a lawyer who is working with private equity firms and then there was me so i was just so fascinated and thank you so much for actually making me feel a part of all of you guys and just, you know, you started one of the biggest podcasts in the world.

2:15:22Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. We would love to know what you liked or disliked about this episode and which guest you would like to see again on this show or which are the new guests that you want to see. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback helps us improve and make every episode a little better. I'll see you the next time. Until then, keep figuring out.

2:15:49Thank you.