The One Mistake That Built Bitch Bible (w/ Jackie Schimmel)

0:00Haley: Okay, so I just gave my apartment a major refresh and hands down the hardest thing to get right was the rug. I just couldn't find one that fit right and I really wanted something that pulled the room together because like a rug is a big deal. But then I found Ernesta and Ernesta is amazing you guys. It makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact size of your space so it actually fits instead of almost fits and looks great the first time. Like in the past, I've just defaulted to stock sizes when buying rugs. And also like when you're in a New York City apartment, that really just doesn't cut it, but they're all weirdly shaped.

0:36Haley: But with Ernesta, you can send photos and dimension to Ernesta's design team and they help you get the size exactly right, completely free of charge. Hand selected by design experts, Ernesta rugs are beautiful, they're durable, and they're made for the way you actually live. Cut, finish, and delivered in as little as two weeks. Visit Ernesta.com and order five samples for only$10 and you will get$50 toward any rug of your choice. That is E-R-N-E-S-T-A.com. The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated and it had pen and paper how much I spent each day.

1:16Haley: At this time, I think I was making around$40 ,000 and access cashflow was pretty tight. So I had to watch every penny. I think about how far we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. We don't need a journal with pen and paper anymore. The answers are out there. And Monarch is one of those answers. Monarch is literally, it's like having a financial advisor in your pocket. So you can use AI to help see what you're spending. Monarch will help you have full visibility in your accounts. It will help you see your trends. It will help you set goals, map out big purchases.

1:52Haley: See if you're actually on track to where you wanted to be. You can ask a Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances. Like, hey, how much did I spend on travel last summer? Can I afford this vacation without touching my savings? You can spot things you wouldn't think about before. Like, oh, hey, has my spending gone up or just inflation? I was using pen and paper. Now you can use tools like a full financial advisor in your pocket. And that's called Monarch. So what you want to do is you want to go to monarch.com. use code TRADING. The first year of Monarch Core is half off at just 50 bucks.

2:30Haley: That's 50 % off your first year. Just go to monarch.com with code TRADING. Like the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time is people thinking that I'm like so unhinged behind the mic. Making it like I was jet setting all over the world, like living like this life when in reality, I had no job, no income,$14 in the bank, crippling credit card debt. My car was repossessed. Nothing on the tape. How do you approach couple finances together? Do you split everything? No. My money is my money and his money is also my money. Yep. This is Financial Tea. What's up, Sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture.

3:24Haley: And today we are in the Los Angeles stew, and I am with my girl, Jackie Motherfucking Schimmel. She is comedian, most of all, like truly will make you pee in your pants. That's nice. That's generous. But I have other accolades for you too. Writer, I was going to say. The blog goes hard. And most importantly, the host of the incredible podcast, The Bitch Bible. I'm the most loyal listener and has been on the air since 2015. So she's sitting on some major IP baby. She's got that podcast money. Truly a pioneer. Thank you. You walked so we could all run. Thank you. Jackie, welcome to the show. I'm so grateful that you're here.

4:06Haley: Thank you. I'm excited. I was saying to you, I was like, are you going to be here? Because I was going to give you every out because I didn't know like how you're going to feel, but you're such a champ. I'm here. I'm feeling good. You know, if I, if my water breaks, you're just going to have to drive me to the hospital. I love that. When are you due? I'm due in about five to six weeks, five and a half weeks. So you're nearing, you're in the end. I'm nearing the edge. I can feel it. It's like a foot's coming out of me. Am I allowed to cuss? Oh, for sure. Okay. Fuck, shit, bitch. Whatever you want.

4:36Haley: Okay. Perfect. Let's get them all out now. Okay. So let's start with some rapid fire questions. Love a rapid fire. Let's go. I got the email and I didn't read it. Perfect. You're just coming in hot. Yeah, it's fine. What were your best and worst purchases of the week and how much did they each cost? Oh, God. Well, it's been a bit of a slippery week in my household. We're finishing a backyard renovation, so the financial deficits are like hard to digest. I would say my worst purchase of the week would be grass sod, about 6 ,000 square feet of grass. Oh, my gosh. Which, news to me, is very, very expensive.

5:17So when I got the bill, I nearly laid on the freeway. It was about, oh, God, it's so weird. You know what? This is a good exercise for me because I feel like I have been so conditioned not to talk about money since you. It's funny. Like, when you have no money, you don't talk about it. But then when you have a little bit, like some switch goes off in your brain where you're like not supposed to talk about it because it's like crass and gross. But we're exercising that muscle today.

5:43Haley: I love that. We're getting the financial team. I think you also, you're conditioned not to say numbers. Yes. But you do talk a lot about spending because it's such a big part of life, like, you know, about how you maintain your life. It's true. And we should be more open about it as women. As women. As women. That's why we're here. Yeah, exactly. I'm a feminist. As well. The grass sod was$48 ,000. That'll hit you, girl. So that nearly took me the fuck out. Yeah, okay. Wasn't expecting grass to be so expensive. Yeah. I was like, can't we just sprinkle a couple seeds back there and pray for El Nino?

6:18No. And my best purchase of the week is probably, this is very annoying white girl shit, but But the Air One coconut milk, the raw coconut milk from Air One, if we could just take a second, is the very best thing that I have ever consumed. I don't know if it's a pregnancy thing, but I've been making these like matcha lattes at home with the raw coconut milk. And if you're like the pregnancy police and you don't think I should be ingesting live cultures, you can fuck all the way off because I'm doing it and everything's fine. it is about$14 a bottle and it gets you about two lattes. So it's not a fiscally responsible habit.

7:03You're better off just going to Leora. But when I tell you it hydrates you from within, it's the most delicious treat.

7:12Haley: I sleep all night looking forward to it. Okay. And then what's something you spend a ridiculous amount of money on that you genuinely believe is worth every penny? So many things. So many things. I don't have like a lot of spending guilt because if I am spending money on something, it typically brings me so much joy that I can really rationalize it. And I'm like, I could get hit by a bus. Like, do I need these like bedazzled, you know, shoes? No. Am I ever going to wear them? Probably not. But like just looking at them gives me such a fever for life that I can rationalize it. I would say anything home interior wise, I can conceptualize that like a certain tile is ridiculous.

8:00And if I ever sold my home, someone would probably rip it out because they thought it was crazy. But I am so emotional about materials that I do not feel guilty about like spending money on things in my home that I get to enjoy.

8:18Haley: Yeah. And also the cost per wear, like we were talking before about how we both love to buy coats because you got to wear a coat a million times. It's a hug. It's a hug, but it's like same thing with your house. You're in your house every freaking day. And I just like, if I saunter into a bathroom and I see the wallpaper, the tiles or the stupid fixtures, like I get such pride in that. And it's very exciting to me. We get to enjoy it. And yeah, I can't really explain it. Like it's just, I don't know, it just makes me feel very, very happy. Well, I think from a financial perspective, you are actually really sophisticated because you don't have guilt.

8:58Haley: Like you have so much confidence in how you spend and you're unabashed and unapologetic about it. And I think more people should try and be like that because, you know, there's so much shame on the internet around spending. Like, yeah, like I make good money. If I go stay at a nice hotel or something like this, people, why didn't you get an Airbnb? Why didn't you like, I don't want to stay home. Yeah, that's the case. Like if I'm going to do something, I like to do it right or not at all. You know what I mean? I agree with that. And I really do. I think maybe I grew up a certain kind of way where it was very much so like saving for the future, living, you know, living for the future, compiling.

9:41And I find that the less, I mean, this is coming from a privileged place and believe me, you know, we were talking about this. I lived three blocks over in an apartment with bars on the windows and had my car repossessed. So I understand. But even in that space, I feel like not being so emotionally attached to money has helped me because the more money I spend, the more enthusiastic I am to make more money, if that makes sense. Like the ebb and flow of it and like even like throwing parties at your house, kind of a wasteful thing to have a bunch of, you know, to spend a bunch of money on a night that you have people over in a bar, whatever you choose to do but you have like a memory and a culture and a vibe and it's it's so important and if we all get crazy about it then there's no more fun so let's go back to sorry no no I'm just hijacking your shell no I'm like so I'm on the edge of my seat I'm more I'm just

10:47Haley: like I'm in a privileged position where I feel like I know you so well because I am obviously long-time listener and now we're like becoming friends too which obviously you know means so much to me but uh I want to go through your story because it is so interesting you know you really did start from nothing you dropped out of high school you faked your diploma I didn't like drop out I just didn't graduate yeah you know what I mean I didn't have enough credits to technically graduate and I had lied to all the supervisors. I was like very into student council. So I knew everybody, you know, it wasn't like I was like a deadbeat, like doing drugs in the parking lot.

11:26I just wasn't really that interested in schooling. I was more into the social aspect of school. And I basically was like, let me walk because I have 700 family members who already bought tickets to like come see me graduate. And I'll do summer school to make up for the credits that I don't have. Fun fact, never went to summer school. Didn't technically have enough credits. Never got my diploma. So that's kind of how that went.

11:54Haley: But you got to do the ceremony and that's the best part. I got to walk with an empty little like leather pamphlet thing. But so then you went on to build this incredible career in media though. Like you've had your podcast for over 10 years. you really are looked at as one of the top female podcasters. And so can you give us that sort of origin story, how you got there? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of stupid, really. I had little to no direction. I wasn't particularly interested in anything, but overly confident that whatever, everything was kind of going to work out. And I've kind of always been that way, despite having no real skill set.

12:34Haley: No, you have like a very clear anchor in your soul that I feel like shows you like where to go. I felt like it was gonna be okay. And even if it wasn't gonna be okay, like it would be okay. So I wasn't like particularly into anything and I didn't really have any direction. I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college. I enrolled like in an internship program anywhere I could. I happened to intern at um NBC just because like my cousin knew someone that like got me in I lied when I got there said I was a uh going to UCLA yeah it was a different time you know nothing was digital like we could just kind of like wait it was just like I'm at UCLA and I also lied and said that I was graduating that year oh awesome but I was like 19 yeah how would you be graduating.

13:26It didn't matter. Like it worked. It fucking worked. Um, and then from there I got a job.

13:34Haley: Yeah. Wait, where did you meet your best friend, Lauren Sanchez at extra? Oh, okay. So wait, how'd we get to extra? I got to extra through the NBC internship program. Um, so I was there like five days a week all day cause I wasn't going to school. So I was able to like really make myself present in the newsroom. And I shadowed like Lauren Sanchez, who were the host, Mario Lopez, Terry Seymour. You know, I just did bitch work basically. And then from there, I went to Chelsea Lately. Then I moved to After Lately. Then I did some pilots for her. But these were not glamorous jobs. These were production assistants jobs.

14:22They weren't creative.

14:24Haley: No. No. No. I was doing Costco runs. Yeah. Walking the dog. Yeah. Dishes. Yeah. Mail distribution and keeping a pretty low profile. Yeah. You know what I mean? I wasn't like, I'm good. I was just like, I just got to like keep a gig going for a while. And then I got fired from that. I was also like the worst employee ever. Me too. The worst. So bad. I would just go off the grid. I'd go to Costco. go I'd be sitting in the parking lot for 45 minutes you know all the things and then I moved sharpest right I got a job at an investment bank for I just like went to like I know right I went to like um how'd you finagle that one very interesting I I had no job for a long time I did all these like random craigslist jobs just to like make some form of income because my parents are like if you're not going to college you have to like pay for yourself basically they covered my rent they helped me a lot but they were like bitch you better get a fucking job yeah so i worked at fred siegel for a bit i mean i had 700 different shitty jobs that didn't ever last long because I was a really, really terrible employee.

15:47Haley: Well, they weren't careers. It was really just you're trading your time for money. Exactly. And so those were the jobs too that I didn't excel in where it's like, I'm a nanny. I worked at a Pilates studio. Like they do that where I'm just not going to take it seriously because like, I don't have a piece of the pie, honey. No. You're just paying me to show up and like, I'm bored. I'm like, I'm barely here. I'm just like staring in the ceiling. And then I went to like a headhunter, like some type of like a staffing person lied about being a UCLA graduate. They didn't fucking check. And by the way, that's on, do we need to pay for these degrees?

16:22Haley: Like, just say you went. Back then you could. You really could. That's the best money hack you can find. It was unbelievable. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed-sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I'm Jenna Fisher.

17:01Haley: And I'm Angela Kinsey. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Just because we finished rewatching The Office does not mean we're going anywhere. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. Plus, you can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. So follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Wait, have you guys heard the news? The Market Report is now its own separate episode of Financial Tea. It's going to be in your feeds once a week just so that we can cover the latest breaking news going on in financial and just general pop culture.

17:46Haley: So make sure that you subscribe so you are up to date on all things juicy and money because you know that's how we like to keep it. Stay rich. And then, yeah, I got a job as a receptionist at an investment bank and I had benefits and it was like, I mean, I thought that I was like really set for life. All I had to do was answer the phone, like divert people to conference rooms, ask them if they needed water and like close the gate at the end of the day. Like it was as and do some FedEx runs. The best gig in town, by the way. Yeah, truly. Like are they hiring? I swear to God. They did after I got fired from there, they did ask me to come back twice.

18:28Wow.

18:29Haley: Twice. Twice. That's a lot of time. And I was like, you guys are obsessed with me. Get out of here. I'd walk around with the Bluetooth with the cord hanging out like it wasn't even plugged in because it just like made me feel like sexy rom-com vibes. Good times. Good times. And I was like stealing water. I was stealing wines. Of course. It was fucking awesome. And then you started Bitch Bible. So from that job, I had so much dead time just sitting at that fucking desk. Being bored. And everyone would check out at like 3. And I had to be there till 6. So I'd switch all the TVs and the reception area to Housewives.

19:06I'd be kicking my foot up, opening the CEOs like Chardonnay or whatever. And I started writing like Housewives recaps. Oh, okay.

19:16Haley: Love that. This is kind of when like blogging was like popping off. So I wrote like a couple Housewives recaps. One of them got picked up by like an Allure magazine. And I was sending them out to, you know, info at alert, like any submission email address I could find. And I got one on like alert.com. That's major. I mean, for a dumb fuck with a headset that wasn't plugged in. Yeah, it was like kind of a cool thing. I was like, I'm a writer. And they're like, bitch, you haven't like even written an email for this company, but okay. And Andy Cohen found it and like retweeted it. And then I got invited to do Watch What Happens Live as like a bartender.

20:04Haley: That's so crazy. It's crazy. Like really? Yeah, it was crazy. That's like a lot of fortune. Well, I was just lying too. I was like, I'm a writer. I'm like, you know, and I had like a sad little blog. and then I went to New York. I did the Watch What Happens. They flew you? They did. Wow. They did. From one article in Allure that he tweeted. I had been doing like, and then I was doing regular housewife recaps. They were like, she loves housewives. Like, let's bring her on. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then from there, when I went to Watch What Happens Live, I met the president of Embassy Row, the production company.

20:45Yeah. And they were starting a podcast network and he was like, would you like to do a podcast? with our company. And I was like, what the fuck's a podcast? Okay. I mean, but nothing else going on. So I started a podcast.

21:00Haley: But that deal that you had with Embassy Row, you've talked about this before. It was a shitty deal. And you, explain how you found out that that deal was so bad. Well, I was 22 when I signed that deal. I have no family in entertainment at all. I also didn't consult anyone because I was like, this is my big break. You know what I mean? I'm a star. And I had no options. I did not have a lawyer. You know, I was 22 years old and I was presented kind of podcasting at the time was the wild, wild west. There were no podcasts. Okay. Like it was Corolla and like NPR, like there It didn't exist, okay? So I was given paperwork that offered me like a talent fee of like$5 ,000 a year, which to me at that time was un-fucking, that was like life-changing.

21:59Yeah, and to do something that you actually were good at and that you liked. And it was with this fancy production company that was handling like, the fact that they flew me to New York and they were booking my guests and I had access to like a studio and I had no concept of what a podcast was. There were none. Yeah. So I signed. I don't even think I read the first line. I was like, yep, here's like take my organs. I don't care. And I was podcasting with them for like three years, maybe. And I made zero dollars of ad revenue.

22:38Haley: So great. So you up for all three years, you're getting paid 5k per year. Yeah. Never negotiated it. No. And how often are you doing it? Once a week. Wow. For the first year, it really was because it's a production company and I love everybody there, mind you. But they were really trying to develop like a television show around it. And I was no TV star. You know what I mean? Like I had no experience. They were trying to like segment it out and produce it out and try to like find some type of a blueprint for a possible television show. So they had me do a lot of sizzles, a lot of pilots, all this stuff.

23:12The focus really wasn't on the podcast per se, but because there were two and a half other podcasts, we were able to like chart pretty quickly. But there, it was like, I remember the podcast coming out in like a month later, it was like number three on all, there were no categories back then, mind you, but there was eight podcasts. So there was none. It was pretty easy to break in at the time.

23:38Haley: But also you're good at it. We can also say that. If it was really bad, it wouldn't have worked. It wasn't great. It wasn't great, but I was able to get like Bravo guests because... Yeah, through Embassy Row. Amazing. So I was able to like kind of book guests and I became friends with Stassi Schroeder in that time because she came on as a guest and we clicked. and she had a podcast. She had started a podcast around the same time. And I remember being out with her and like, thank fucking God, I've told her this so many times. I remember her saying something like she could quit Vanderpump if she had wanted to because she had the podcast.

24:20And I'm thinking to myself, how the hell could you sustain a living on a podcast? On five to a year. What are we doing here? Like, I don't have a car. I'm taking the bus to the studio. And she, you know, awkwardly, I kind of like, I was like, well, what are we talking about? Yeah. Because we lived kind of in the same vortex on the charts. We had all the same sponsors at the time. Same audience. Same audience. And when she told me what she was making per month, I was like, I haven't made that in like ever in my, like in a year I haven't made. Like I couldn't believe I was shocked. Like I never would have come up with that number.

25:05So I go back to. Can you share the number? I don't want to like speak for her. And this is so long ago. But I feel like it was like at the time like$25 ,000 a month. Yeah. Which is amazing. Which is amazing. It was a long time. Like that to me, I couldn't even believe that she was making that a month. You know, 10, 12 years ago, whatever it was. And I was just like, what? I was like, I couldn't make that in five years.

25:32Haley: I have to be here until retirement. And then still it might not even hit that. That's 250 episodes for me. That's crazy. And I remember just being like, whoa, I had no idea the money that was in like ad revenue or the splits or any of this stuff. And she kind of clued me in. And then I went back and I was like, I've got to get out of here. and they let me go. So you went in the next day and you were like, you fuckers, like what did you do? I was like, what recoupable fees? I didn't, I hadn't realized I had signed a deal that like. I would have been fuming. Like walk us through that. I was just, I felt stupid first of all.

26:12Yeah.

26:13Haley: Obviously. I think we all feel like that early in our careers though where you just don't have any baseline. I had no baseline. I had no idea and I immediately like went to everybody that I knew there, like the higher ups and I was just like hey and it wasn't even on their radar to be honest like my dumb little podcast they're producing all these massive shows like it was not like it wasn't flagging for them they didn't know nobody knew what the world of podcasting was when I signed that deal who knows um and it had just kind of slowly started to explode like podcasting became like a thing. Yeah.

26:52And then they let me walk.

26:55Haley: That's amazing. Yeah. So then you, when you walked, you own the IP. Yeah. That's major. And you know, that's something I think about a lot with you too, is like, obviously I enjoy your, like your content. I've said that a lot, but I also have always really respected how you've protected your IP. Yeah. And I know that you've said this before that it's show business, not show friendship. Yeah. And you've moved a lot from network to network to just try to get better deals every time. And so can you walk us through that a little bit? Yeah. Well, I was with, um, embassy row for three years probably.

27:31And then I moved to dear media, which was a brand, I was like the only show on dear media. Um, because I had met the boss sticks through podcasting. They were always so great to me, but you know, I was at Dear Media for maybe like six or seven years. And honestly, I, you know, I got an offer from another network that was just better. Something I really couldn't turn down at the time. And I took it. Yeah. And it like really wasn't like it was so funny because everyone on like the internet was like what happened yeah now this is like this is pretty straightforward shit yeah I was pregnant at the time I was having a baby I got offered you know a fucking killer mg yeah and I said okay yeah I'm gonna take it yeah and that was that yeah so I've been with my network now for maybe two years.

28:32And listen, I can be bought. So I go. You go where the money is. It's not lovely to say nobody wants to say that. I'm super loyal. But like, listen, if someone like dangles a big fat check in front of me, because I do have so many episodes that are able to be monetized with back catalog ad sales, I walk with a pretty heavy catalog. Yeah. And I'm not like a new shiny toy. You know, listen, I'm not getting the$130 million deal at Sirius because I'm an old bitch. Okay. But she runs real good.

29:04Haley: Yeah. It's like buying a Toyota. She's, listen, she's steady and she's consistent. We're not going to have a boom of downloads anytime soon. But we're consistent. Yeah. Anytime I go into a meeting, I'm like, listen, I'm not the shiny new car on the lot, but I run real good for a really long time. I'm nothing if not consistent. And I've got so many fucking episodes that you can slip ads into at a discounted rate. So I walk with a pretty heavy, consistent catalog. And there's value in that. And I feel like a lot of people get stuck places because of sunk cost fallacy, like where you feel like, oh, I've already been here for so long with Dear Media.

29:46Haley: You'd be like, oh, I was already there for six years. So I guess I should keep staying because I owe it to them or whatever. I could go back. I could go anywhere. I don't want people to get too comfortable with me. You never know what the fuck I'm going to do. I'll whip and nay-nay all over the streets. You whip and nay-nay girl. In that Toyota. She's that Toyota. She purrs well. She does. She runs. She runs. No, I think that's such good advice, though, to anyone in their career because it's like we all end up getting so emotional about things. And I love how you explain it because it's not emotional.

30:21Haley: It literally is about where am I going to be valued the most. And like you said, it's show business, not show friendship. I have so many tiles to buy. Okay. I have grass. I have children. I have, it's really like not personal at all, at all. And I have good relationships with everybody I've ever worked with. I could call any CEO from any network and be like, do you want to go have a martini and talk shit about people? And they'd say, sure. I mean, who would say no to that with you? Also, before we move on, can we go back to Lauren Sanchez really fast? Yes, sure. Like, we just need to know, like, were there any crazy anecdotes that we need to know about her?

31:00First of all, she was lovely. Oh, okay. Okay. Don't hate to hear it. She was lovely.

31:04Haley: Did she have, like, future billionaire wife energy? 1 ,000%. Yes. She was walking around that newsroom in an Hervé Leger bandaged dress at 6 a.m., tits out. We loved her for it. But the highlight of my experience with Lauren Sanchez was it was probably like a couple weeks into the internship and they had bagels every morning. And I was helping myself to a bagel, as one does. And she walked into the kitchen and she looked at me and she goes, eating is cheating, and walked out. And I thought, that's my bitch right there. I was like, yep, okay, done, sold. It was the best moment of my life. It sat with me for years.

31:47And I remember running to the intern desk and being like, guess what Lauren Sanchez just said to me? And keep in mind, I was like 82 pounds at the time. Like eating was not cheating for me. Like I could have housed every fucking bagel and been just fine. But it was just like, you know, some people that would just send them into a downward spiral. I was like, that's my girl. Eating is cheating. I was like, somebody tattoo it on my forehead. What a star.

32:12Haley: I think about that when I see her now where I'm like, she's definitely at dinner with Kris Jenner being like, eating is cheating. Oh, it's so good. It's such a great line. It really is. It's so funny. It's not of the times now, but like, I think she was trying to help me. I think she probably assumed that I was there like trying to be an on-camera personality and just was like giving me a little morsel of wisdom. She's like, and do you want to borrow my Airblazer? And I'm like, and I remember it was like purple. And I'm like, yes, give it to me. It would look amazing on me. Amazing. This episode is brought to you by Indeed.

32:49Haley: You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Here at the Happiness Lab, we're serving up some hot takes for the summer. Big ideas that just might reshape how you think about your well-being. Like the radical notion that we should get rid of small talk completely.

33:26We talk about current events. We talk about what you do for a living. But not, do you love what you do for a living? Is this your dream job?

33:32Haley: For more surprising ideas backed by psychological science, check out our new series, Happiness Hot Takes. Listen to The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos, wherever you get your podcasts.

33:47Haley: With your career, you've obviously built it on being really outspoken and having really strong opinions, which is, I think, the reason that we all love you so much. Like, we were talking before about how you could never really use AI because we would know you'd have such a strong— Listen, I can't. I've tried. I'm like, they're saying, no, this isn't working. But has that ever cost you a deal? no so interesting no i mean i could lie for like sport no but um no not at all amazing i haven't to be honest like i have said some crazy shit on my podcast i'm so aware of what i'm saying all the time like the biggest ponzi scheme of all time is people thinking that i don't like like i'm like so unhinged behind the mic yeah i've been doing this for so long i do have some form of bumpers.

34:36I do kind of know where the line is. I kind of do. I edge it very well. But like there is a line and I'm it feels like I'm swerving down Mulholland. But I promise you like I am 10 and 2. I know exactly what I say, why I said it, what the backlash is going to be, what the ramifications are. I've never lost a sponsorship. I know what the fuck is going on. I know the temperature. I know the audience. We're good. There's an art to that, though. Well, I here's the deal. I've been doing it for so long and I am 100 percent being myself all the time on the microphone. And I think where people get in trouble is when they are presenting like a minced parsed version of themselves and then they slip.

35:26Yeah. If you're always keeping it 100, people don't want to crucify and penalize you in the same way. So you get a lot more wiggle room. Yeah. And the audience is ready for it. You know what I mean? It's never going to be like, I can't believe like we we've heard it all. It's a desensitization practice. dis and I'm so aware of what I'm saying all the fucking time so therefore um it has not no and

36:01Haley: with like this is obviously such an endurance sport podcasting yeah for so long and beyond just reading those ads what has been your most passive or profitable or what has been your most profitable income stream and what are like the numbers behind it um well podcasting i mean it's all ads so it is all ads it's all fucking ads uh yeah i mean especially when you have a larger catalog and you are able to sell yeah ads in the back catalog even if it's at a micro fraction of the rate they're switching them out every few months so you have constant ad revenue on episodes that you've already, you know, broadcasted.

36:49So that has been amazing.

36:52Haley: Yeah, that's amazing. And so obviously I know as a Bitch Bible listener about Andrew, your husband, his pronouns on your podcast are she, which just always makes me pee in my pants. You're like, look at her. She's outside with a leaf blower. I don't know how that started. I'm sure she doesn't love it, but she doesn't listen to the podcast. And she shouldn't. No, she shouldn't. It's not for her. Yeah, I don't think that like the partners of creators should consume their work. No. And my boyfriend, I would die if he listened to my shows. No, she gets the real thing all day, every day, the turbo, real unedited version.

37:26So she doesn't need to hear.

37:27Haley: But she's a good husband. Like, she's obsessed with you. She's a good husband. Yeah, which makes me so happy because I see so many relationships, like people, so many women message me and they are just with losers who don't take care of them. No, don't marry those people. That's a dumb idea. Yeah, but you're also, you're both bringing home the bacon. Like he, you know, is an amazing music producer. You have this huge podcast. So how do you approach couple finances together? Like do you split everything? No. No. Like absolutely not. My money is my money and his money is also my money. Yep. So he's the responsible one.

38:04Yep. You know, he's the mortgage. He's the gas. He's the electric. if I want to redesign a powder room with imported tiles that cost$4 million a square foot, that's on me. You know, he's definitely more, this is like a guy that is, we like to live life the same way. We love to travel. We like to eat. Like we enjoy spending money mostly in the same way, which is primarily on me. but he's definitely more response not more responsible i wouldn't say but he's more um what's the word yeah maybe more like responsible like his spending is on the things that like the roof over our head and the lights and the gas whereas like you know he's never gonna go out and like buy himself a crazy watch yeah or like come home with like a new car no no never never Yeah.

38:59No, he's he's pretty. I wouldn't say simple. That's not the right word, but he's he's chill like that.

39:06Haley: But also you met when you were completely broke. Totally. So it's different because it's like you guys came up together. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. He worked his ass off. I mean, his his producer name is After Hours because he literally had to work like a day job as a sound engineer. when we met. He had like four jobs when I met him. He was a sound engineer all day doing just like voiceover commercial jingle work. And then at night, as soon as his gig was over during the day, he would go and do sessions all night long. So after hours. But, you know, when you have hard, when you have to have hard financial conversations with him, you know, and maybe hard in quotations, because maybe it's not hard for you.

39:50Haley: Yeah. How do you bring them up and go about that? Because I think that's really difficult for people in romantic relationships is they feel like it's going to kill the vibe if they talk about money and you're so straightforward. So I sort of wonder how you handle those. We haven't I mean, kind of the beauty of the situation is that we both bring money to the table. So it's not really a conversation we have often because if, you know, I like to keep my money separate, which is maybe something I should keep to myself. But if I want to go out - I always tell women, you have to have your own money on the side.

40:28Haley: You have to. You have a great situation where all of the money is on the side, but you always have to have your own independent fuck you money. But what's also interesting is you talk so much about your life. Obviously, I know so much about Andrew. She's great. but also about your kids Clyde is so cute my muffin man do you feel like it's made you money having kids so like I always wonder when I have kids if that's going because obviously it opens up new markets where you get to do like your little spoon ads and like talk about like not really not really I mean child care is expensive so it all evens out in the wash it kind of all evens out in the wash but yeah and I'm going to be a lot more mindful moving forward of how like once he's a little older, like the lights are getting cut on Clyde.

41:17You know what I mean? Like once he's more aware, like we're not going to be doing paid sponsorships on my Instagram.

41:24Haley: Oh, so you're going to take him offline at a certain point. Like I would never put him in an ad. Like that's so insane. Like I personally, no judgment, do whatever you want. Not for me. You actually can put the kids on payroll though. Like I have friends who put their kids in ads, which is crazy, I agree, but they then pay the kids a part of the ad and you can put it in a custodial Roth IRA, which then grows tax-free for retirement and can make them a lot of money. I want him to make his own money. Yeah, but I know you're also like, my money is my money. Yeah, I'm like, man, you get a job. Okay.

42:00Haley: You're like, what is generational wealth? What about mommy's wealth? I want to set him up for success, but Like, I would like him to do his own thing. Yeah. I don't want him, like, cashing in. I see these fucking kids whipping out of their high schools in their Range Rovers. And that ain't happening in my house. I could be a billionaire. That kid's getting busted. He's getting the Toyota. He's getting the Toyota. From 1995 with bitch Bible wrapped around it. Like, we're not getting crazy here. I'm not raising a little asshole. Yeah, no. Not happening. It is a difficult thing to like get the kids to actually have ambition when they do come from money.

42:38Haley: Like you had obviously so much ambition and so did Andrew because I feel like you were both, you know, trying to get to the next level. Yeah. They know that they're already at a level. It's really difficult. Oh, I will make it my. That's why I think you should never tell your kids about if they have any money coming towards them. No. Until they're really like set in a career. No, I will make it my full time job to let them know that they have to go do their own thing. Yeah. And then it could be a surprise down the line. Oh, you're going to get a little something. him but like that is icing on the cake yes 100 i tell my he's three i'm like you know how pretty your backyard is okay like you're so lucky like anytime we travel i'm like mommy went to the hyatt in palm desert once a year yeah and shared a room with four cousins over the parking lot and that was live in large you know like we were not jet setting all over the place we lived a very comfortable, like lovely, wonderful childhood.

43:28But like I was not flying business class to the Cotswolds. Okay. And I just let, I try to instill that pretty often. Like I'm still excited about this because I didn't do this. So I don't want you growing up thinking like my biggest fear in life is that, um, he will grow up and not get excited about things or be like, Oh my God, this is so cool. This is amazing. I'm so happy to be here. Like this is so exciting because me and my husband still get like that. If we go to like an amazing place, we're like, oh my God, this is like you get, it's such a thief of excitement to be so used to like exciting, fun things.

44:09You know what I mean? Yeah. And I just find that, you know, like some of these trust fund babies, they go to these hotels and they, you know, they grew up going summering in Europe and this, and they're just so jaded from the experience. And I find that to be so pathetic. Yeah. You need to keep them hungry. Keep them hungry. I'm going to have two boys get to work, bitches.

44:30Haley: I know. Even if it's like catering mommy's party, whatever it is. Sweat equity. I'm going to have them in two tuxedos when I have parties with trey pass drinks, collecting coats, cleaning dishes. A hundred percent. Maybe like a little massage with their tiny hands. Like a warm towelette post dinner. Like just walking around to my friends 100 oh yeah and that's good for your like future that's great sam your future as a pregnancy influencer which you already are so let me ask you totally okay you're obviously so okay you're pregnant you are with child i i am it's always scary to ask that or say that but i feel confident because it's because you could see like a foot coming out of me yeah yeah like i think so i feel good about that and are is there any pregnancy financial advice that you would give or that you would give people or motherhood financial advice?

45:20You know what? I waited. I knew how I wanted to do motherhood. So I waited until I was in a financial place to do motherhood the way that I wanted to because I have no shame and a little bit of child care game. You know what I mean? Like it's people don't love to say it. And I think there's like a lack of transparency when it comes to child care. I would also love this opportunity to say that I currently I do not have a nanny.

45:47Haley: Wow. I don't have a nanny. Brave. I know. By choice. Clip that. Yeah. Oh, you're doing daycare. I mean, my son is in basically seven to seven daycare, Montessori, whatever you want to call it. Preschool. No, he's there like four days a week, nine to, you know, 3.30, sometimes four if I feel like it. And, yeah, I've all I waited until I was able to kind of fund the transition of being a selfish, dumb bitch to being a mother. So, you know, like for me, the night nurse thing, I was like, I ain't having a baby if I don't have a night nurse. Not lovely to say. I will lose my fucking mind. So I waited.

46:31We do a night nurse. From then I'll transition into having a nanny for the first, you know, however long, just so that I have a separate pair of hands in the house. and you know I love to have my kid loved up on by another person like I that does not make me feel less than as a mother it doesn't make it doesn't um I feel like it doesn't jeopardize like our bond or our relationship like I want my son loved on by as many people as possible so I've always just like thought that was the greatest gift 100 it makes it easier

47:10Haley: it really does yeah and it's such a necessary investment too because like how are you going to run your business and like bring home the bacon if you don't have support like you're gonna bring your kid here I mean I'd love to meet him but oh my god I'd literally have him like chained up to a pole yeah like I'd put him in a crate yeah no that's not happening we need some help we need some help and also I just don't co-sign on the trope like of this mother who's disheveled and tired and bleeding out that doesn't work in my family dynamic I don't want to be that person yeah I'm not that kind of mother the whole thing of it's so hard and I'm sure everything is hard yeah everything is hard um I think it's all just like kind of a mindset and how you build your infrastructure yeah that was not going to work for me if you're an annoying person with an annoying husband you're gonna have an annoying kid and an annoying life think about and if you're cool you're gonna have cool kids listen it's all like how you create the culture in yeah it's so true so that's it is what it is you have to set the vibe you gotta set the vibe so important and the bumpers and just like the the foundation of your family so true and it starts kind of with mom.

48:32Haley: You're sort of the only person that I know, which is so crazy to say who talks about motherhood that way. And it makes me, even my producer, Sam, who's a guy was like, wait, when Jackie talks about motherhood, I think maybe I could be the partner to someone who's like having a, you know, carrying a child. Like we are all, it makes, I think you're going to up the birth rate because there's so much, yeah. Like there's so, I feel like there's so much sacrifice. I mean, obviously there's always sacrifice. There's always sacrifice with everything though. And I always tell my friends who are like starting a family I'm like listen it's not that like like we've gone real doom and gloom everyone loves to like the self-importance of just being like so bled out but like it doesn't have to be that way you can make a choice in everything to make life easier more fun and just do it your way I think that's such a good mindset shift yeah my son's a vibe I fucking love hanging out with him.

49:30He's so cool. And when he's not, I punt him off to somebody else and go have a cocktail.

49:37Haley: Like, what are we talking about here? And there's also ways to do childcare that's less expensive. Like, you could do a nanny share. You could do daycare. Like, there's lots of ways to get help. Yeah. My son's in a Montessori. He's growing micro greens, like, playing with chickens, comes home covered in glitter. I don't know what the fuck happened. but he's having the best time, sleeps like an angel, and is great at restaurants. So what can I do about it? There you go. And that's all that any of us want from our kids. Exactly. Perfect. You're raising a good one. So let's talk about your home though.

50:07Haley: Because right now, home interest rates are at 7%, which is so crazy. And it is so out of reach for so many Americans to own a home. Oh, it's impossible. It's crazy. It's crazy. But it's something that you've really invested in. Like you really love your home. You love renovating. So do. Can you tell us about this crazy home renovation? Like I've seen it online. I've heard you talk about it, but how much is this costing? How much did you originally plan for it to cost? Give us a lot less, a lot less. I, I probably jumped the gun on this a little bit, but I was really using El Nino as an excuse to kickstart it because the truth is our drainage in our house has always been an issue so like we've had to replace the floors two times because of groundwater that came up from just such poor drainage in the yard and um the way that our house is set up it is on a hill and there's a lot of like incline into the house and it's a lot of land that just pours into our house yeah so so It was science.

51:19It was science. Yeah. You had to. And unfortunately, to do the backyard, they had to dig up everything. Like, up the concrete slab. Like, down to the bare bones of the yard. We hit earth. We hit earth. And the problem is, once you start a renovation like that, you kind of don't know what you're going to find. So I had, you know, we had planned for a certain level of renovation. And then, you know, now we're severely over budget, but it's done. And it's done. Gorgeous.

51:55Haley: It's gorgeous. We love it. And then, you know, like, are we going to re-pour concrete? I don't think so. I think I need the marble tiles. You know what I mean? Yeah. You need the stone. Yeah. You need the stone pavers. And I know you love to go to Home Depot. You love to go to that marble warehouse, girl. Get me to a marble slab shop and let me sniff out some slabs. And like, did we need a green, you know, soapstone that was imported from Italy for the small countertops? Probably not. But I was already in it. Once you're in the hole, live in abundance. You know, like I'm not going to put, I don't want to put a porcelain slab on the hearth.

52:32I got to do the soapstone. Ruin the whole house. I went, I was seven months pregnant in the deep, deep valley. It was 104 degrees. Okay. And I'm on my hands and knees like a big fat bitch picking, picking rocks, picking marble rocks for my fireplace because I didn't want them to be too one dimensional. I wanted it to have like range and size and shade. So I'm standing there like a crazy person. I'm like, I need to get 180 square feet of this material. How many rocks do I need to pick? The guy's like, you need to pick about 450 rocks. I'm like, copy that. And I'm sweating my balls off, quite literally picking rocks because that's how much I care.

53:17And it's perfect.

53:20Haley: I think so, too. It sounds like, I mean, I've seen it on Instagram stories. It looks amazing. It's fucking amazing. Yeah. I killed it. Yeah. If I'm allowed to say that without being disgusting. I really nailed the fuck out of it. It's perfect. Anyone that would want to change it, I don't trust. I wouldn't even let them buy my home. I'd be like, you're a serial killer. If you don't get this, there's something wrong with you. This is like, you know, some of the bathrooms that get a little crazy. Like maybe you don't like antiqued mirror tiles. Yeah. Sure. But this. Keep that. You're nuts. Yeah. You love it.

53:52Haley: And this is obviously probably a big deal for you too. Because like I said, you really came from not that much. And I don't. Listen, I came from. Oh, no. It's more like you didn't. Like you've. Yeah. Sorry. No, no, no. I don't want to revise history. Like I had a beautiful life growing up, but I was not a trust fund baby. We'll put it that way. Okay. I didn't have like, my dad's not an agent. You know what I mean? Yeah. We didn't have a leg up. No, no. My parents like very much so like I had to work. Yeah. So you've told me for a long time that you were sort of faking rich while being completely broke.

54:30Haley: 1000%. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Like what did it look like? Well, I think that like when I had no source of income, I was very aware that I didn't have like a direction, a path, a skill, an education. Like I didn't have anything on the table. And I think I hit like a moment when I was maybe like in my 20s, like early 20s. I had this like moment where all of my friends, all of my best friends growing up were like really academic, like UCLA. You see like they all had like scholarships and were really like educated people and they all had like stuff lined up. And I kind of hit like 21, 22 where I was like, oh, I don't have like anything going on.

55:17Like this is this is getting a little bleak. Like this is dark and you can only like pretend like, you know, being an intern at like NBC. That's like cool.

55:25Haley: It's only cute for a little bit. There's like a very small period of time where you got away with it. Totally. And then it's like, oh, wait, what are we doing after this? Like, what am I doing in five years? Like, where am I going? What am I? I don't have a car. Yeah. This is getting a little sad. Yeah. And when I had nothing, I was very much so trying to project the facade of like lots of stuff in the mix. Secret projects popping off. Secret projects? You know what I mean? Like, I was like, we got to really, I don't know what we're doing over here. So I never acted more like, you know, it was just pathetic and so embarrassing.

56:07What were you buying to like make the illusion? I wasn't, well, I couldn't buy anything. But like, for instance, Andrew's career kind of started to take off. And I was like, this is my meal ticket right here. So, you know, I was able to travel with him a little bit and kind of like ride his coattails for a couple of years. so like if he was going to London like he would I would get to go to London yeah and I would be taking the pictures of like all the things but like I was there with 13 dollars I was living off of his per diem I was going to Nando's and milked two meals but I'd be like bucking him like making it like I was jet setting all over the world like living like this life when in reality I had no job no income no 14 in the bank crippling credit card debt my car was repossessed nothing on the table like absolutely nothing on the table so it's just like this really fabricated lifestyle and you must

57:08Haley: see that so much in LA now too and that just reminds me of like every person on social media and that's why I always tell people you can't compare yourselves to what you see because people are it's like such a facade the more that someone posts about how rich they are the less money they have and the more they shove it in your face yeah the more insecure they are no totally because like if you have anything don't you just like don't you just want to keep that to yourself like you don't want a cousin coming out of the woodworking asking you for a loan you don't want to get in a fender bender and have to go all the way to court it's not of the times no it's just not it's so not cool and everyone with their birkin unboxings and this so bad and i'm like honey but we also like haven't been offered Birkins.

57:49Haley: No one. It's like our pain to sort of share. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like if I got offered one, you know. Yeah, no, we would get it. I would get it. Yes, of course. And I would be like, hello. Yeah. We would. I'd display it. Uh-huh. Yeah. Like it would be here right now with us. I'd have it perched next to the coffee. Yes. Yes. But once again, haven't been offered one. Yeah. Probably not. Probably will never happen for either of us. I can't buy one right now. I'm in the hole. Feeling for you with the yard. It's not good. It's a lot, but you'll get out of it. Like that's what I love about you.

58:14Haley: I always, my favorite financial like thing to say to people is don't cry about spilled milk if you didn't lose the cow. Sure. Because like, I really believe. I'm the cow. Yeah, you're the cow. And I do say that as a pregnant woman, you know, I just really want to twist that knife. I'm leaking fluids out of these boobs as we speak. I am quite literally the cow. But it's like you, you have so much, you can count on yourself so much. Even if you are in a position where you feel like you're so fucked and maybe you spent too much on a yard, but also there's people who feel like their finances are already so far gone they might as well finance that trip to Coachella and like buy now pay later that reformation dress and all this stuff because you know the world's ending I've been there done that I know how that works out it's not great yeah but like that's like the young people like that's what they you know now I'll dial it back for a few months and then I'll exactly I'll figure it out and you'll find another what you are the cow so it's like you'll find other ways to make that milk girl because this is a great analogy and in the meantime I get to like look at my cute yard you love what you bought i'm so happy um okay is there i want to make sure you do get your tuna mouth so we'll get out of here but is there a question that you always want to get asked but never have the chance to answer how is this like intense interview i want to feel like she's just okay barbara walters yeah barbara's here girl is there any no not really okay how'd you get so gorgeous and thin.

59:38Yeah, mostly like what are your diet secrets?

59:41Haley: Yeah, that's a big one. How did you get just so frail whilst pregnant? How are you pregnant, but so skinny? Just so like, are you okay? Are you okay? Do you need a sandwich? You're so thin. Oh my God. We're all worried about you. This is an intervention. How'd you get so skinny? That's my question. I would love to be asked. Perfect. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. Make sure that you rate, review, subscribe. It helps the show so much. We'll see you next week. Jackie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. That was fun. And yeah, stay rich.

1:00:24You never know who's going to show up on For the Love with Gin Hatmaker. from Mel Robbins to Tig Notaro, Kate Bowler to Stanley Tucci. I'm Jen Hatmaker, and every week, my dear friend Amy and I dive deep with incredible guests who make us laugh and cry and think a little bigger about life in the middle years. For the Love, where great stories meet unforgettable people. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts.