Debrief to Win: How Failure Builds Unstoppable Leaders

25:38And it's right here at time, 1.56 p.m. That's where I hit launch. If you can't do that, then we can't learn effectively. You're a danger to this team. You're off the team. So we've made a call tree that way. I think when we're trying to kickstart something like this in an organization, you go back to, you know, You're starting your insurance agency and you're creating the culture intentionally. You have to lead with vulnerability in order to inspire anybody else to follow your lead, to get over their egos, to get over whatever it is that's preventing them from contributing to group learning. And if you're perfect, like if you never make a mistake, like if you're always the one that's pointing the finger elsewhere, it's never going to take root.

26:16Psychological safety will never happen. The other piece of this is, in addition to you being open to the fact that you might have contributed to the team's loss here, is not losing your mind while you're talking about it. So it's one thing to commit to learning ritually after everything that we do. How we come into that is also really important. And learning by way of yelling and kind of losing your mind is actually not learning. We're creating conditions of fear. That fear is a natural thing that causes us to self-censor and shut up, retract into our shells, and it doesn't help us. So emotional intelligence, got to be high.

26:51Got to work on maintaining consistently high ability to self-regulate in order to maintain the good of the team. And that's hard to do, especially when this is your baby handling. Like you've created the company, you invested the money, this is your treasure that you're putting into this thing. You want it to work. When somebody else on the team screws it up, it's hard. It's actually very hard to be able to be like, all right, guys, let's learn together. But that's actually a huge piece of what it takes. And so finding a way to center in, enter into this conversation with childlike curiosity, not make any assumptions, not rush to judgment, maintain a positive disposition, neutral to positive, tone, presence, body, all this stuff goes into it.

27:36That's where it gets a little bit complex. It requires us to be very intentional about leading effectively.

27:46is there a time though when you can just get up in someone's ass though like i i just like you know what i mean like i found like oh yeah so i i'll give you an example yeah please please do give you an example because this is this is what you're seeking right now because there are not okay so um back when i was the squadron weapons officer so this patch indicates that i graduated from the u.s air force weapons instructor course at nellis air force base the original fighter weapons school. And when I came back as the chief instructor pilot of my fighter squadron, I had a mission one day where I violated a major rule of engagement.

28:23So think original Top Gun movie, you know, boss, I was only the hard deck for a couple of seconds, you know, there was no danger. So I took a shot. I did one of those kinds of things only probably more aggravated than that example. And I'm supposed to be giving the example of what Wright looks like always 24 hours a day. So that was not good. And I was getting ready to come back in and debrief this sucker. And the word had already gotten to the squadron commander, who is one of my favorite people on the planet, by the way. And so he comes in and he comes into the debrief room. He's like, Cujo, come here.

28:54And he takes me out of the room that I'm in. I actually had to stifle a grin because I knew it was coming and it was perfect. He takes me into an empty debrief room, slams the door so the entire squadron can hear and screams at me, don't you ever effing do that again. And that was it. That's all he said. And then he slammed the door behind him, leaving me in the almost empty debrief room right now. Again, entire building shakes. Everybody hears this exchange. He's gone. And I thought that was classic. In fact, it's like an example of perfect from my vantage point. He wasn't screaming at me for my sake.

29:33He knew I already knew. how bad the screw up was. What he needed everybody else in the squadron to know is that I was held to the same standard as everybody else, that I wasn't gonna get a pass, that whatever special status I had did not apply to, like I'm just like anybody else here. The rules apply to me just like to anybody else here. If I violate them, I'm gonna get my butt reamed for it, and who knows what else is gonna come from this. And the message was received. Everybody was in like, uh, uh, mode after that. And I'm like, that was perfect. So, yes, there are times when we do have to lay the smack down.

30:06And a good leader understands where it is that that's not going to not only not break psychological safety or the team's effectiveness, but is actually the exact right thing for the team then. It just can't be that way every time. Yeah. What I hear you saying is it has to be a tool in your tool belt used appropriately, like any tool, not your cultural norm. That's right. Yep. And I mean, just like anything, like if every day were Christmas and we'll just look at it from the purely, you know, secular lens of like people are getting gifts here and it's all like fun and happy. It would actually diminish the joy of, oh, it's Christmas again.

30:40You know, I wish one of these days we wouldn't get all these presents. Like it's just it's not the same thing. And if that's your deal where you're always coming down hard on everybody, like, oh, there he is. There's the boss again losing his mind over another, you know, whatever, you know. And you got to ask at what point do people totally tune out? I've actually had people tell me as a consequence of always being criticized for everything that they do, they've actually not only stopped caring, but they've been actively seeking another place of employment because they just tune out. Yeah. This is funny.

31:15But so I coach my kids play sports. I coach them. And the kids are the kids are funny. Some of these kids have been with for a while. So one of the kids, great kid, parents are good people, but the dad's a bit of a yeller. And he's not a coach, so he's constantly yelling from the stands. And I coach third base for baseball. And he gets to third, and he kind of made a bonehead play. And he was safe at third, but it was very ugly how he got there. Let's just put it that way. And the dad's blah, blah, blah. And I just kind of leaned over and I'm like, how do you deal with that? You know, and 10 year old looks at me and goes, oh, I don't even hear him anymore.

32:03He thinks he's laying the smack down on his kid. He didn't even realize he was yelling at. Oh, my goodness. Isn't that so true? Yeah. Yeah. I don't even hear him. It's just noise. At some point it becomes noise and it's not it's not effective. By the way, because you brought it up, kids, youth, sports, and the role that that plays, and kind of going back to this concept of we learn more through failure than anything else, where we learn that is really important. It has to start as kids. If we don't learn the importance of navigating failure early, when it hits us later in life, we're really thrown for a loop, and that's a hard thing to have to overcome.

32:41So my oldest who also started off playing baseball. and second oldest, the coach was going to move into a higher bracket, you know, more aggressive league, wasn't going to take the entire team with, and so he was making the rounds of calling the parents to say, your kid didn't make it. Our kid did. And he's like, hey, listen, if you want to continue with us, you know, just want you to know your son is so talented. We'd love to have him. I'm like, okay, this is great. I'm fired up. He's going to be happy to know that. But here's what I need you to know now that we're playing at a higher level. The moment that he doesn't pass muster, bench him.

33:16The moment that he has an attitude that suggests that it's getting to his head, bench him then. And by the way, if you want to kick him off the team at any point, you're cleared in hot. And he said, you know, I got to say, Mr. Teschner, in all of my years of coaching, I've never had a parent who's talking along those lines. Usually it's the parent that upset that their kid isn't playing more, that they did get benched, that didn't make it to the thing. So can I just ask, why are you going this route? I'm like, yeah, it's simple. This is the time to learn. learn how to navigate you you know you didn't make you didn't make it i need my son to learn that now not 20 years from now when he gets cut from the company and is like what i've only ever won all my life i need him to learn this now we need to learn this while he's still under you know my guidance so that i can coach him up through that thing and we can harness that to have a better day tomorrow that's so important and it begins with where you are right now yeah so i was a high school and college basketball referee for 12 years.

34:14I loved it. Unfortunately, once kids came along, driving three hours to make 150 bucks just wasn't, the math didn't work out as well. Give basketball referees all the crap you want. Understand they are underpaid for what they do. Just so everyone listening, yell at them. If you purchase a ticket, do what you got to do. But just understand they ain't making a lot of money these guys they're doing it because they love it that being said in that 12 year period from I started in 2002 uh and went to 2014 um I watched and was part of uh you know kind of firsthand a major shift in how parents interacted with their children on the sport you know when I started was kind of you know I finished my college baseball career I guess it was a little later I I finished my college baseball career in 2003.

35:08So that's when I started. So from that point, you know, when I first got in, it was very much the way that I was brought up. I mean, I got coaches smoking cigars on third base, you know, yelling at you if you strike out, handling this, you know. I mean, I've had coaches throw me into fences. And, you know, what's funny is, and actually we talked about this in the last show with Steve D 'Agostino, but it was like I had these moments that today I'd have coaches in jail for. You know, they'd be in jail. But those moments would happen, and I'd be like, you know what? I kind of deserve that. You know what I mean?

35:42I was talking back. I pimped a home run one time. Shouldn't have done it. I'm not advocating for this activity. But it was our rival, and a lot of stuff was going on in the game, and I just absolutely jacked this home run off their closer. And I acted like an asshole. I pimped the home run. so I come around the moment my foot hits home base my coach has both his hands I don't even know where he came from he was like a ninja he has both his hands on my jersey he literally drags me like on a cartoon like my feet were dragging he's dragging me off the throws me into the dugout right turns around he goes he just looks at me he's got he got a cigar hanging out of his mouth you will never fucking do that again end of story right today he's in jail me i'm like you know what i'm not gonna do again i'm not gonna pimp another home run yeah not gonna do that right message received right got it don't ever have to say message received i got you coach you know and lesson learned right but in this time period to get back to my point here um in that time period that 12-year time period, when I first started, it was very much the same.

37:01And for those listening, I'm not advocating for physical violence against kids. Please take this for what it is. It was a different time period. But very much that, like, you're held accountable to your actions. And by the time I retired 12 years later, it was the polar opposite. What do you think has happened culturally? I will say it's getting slightly better, but it is still very prevalent in sports today. I've found just in coaching it's a little better. There seems to be a little more rationale or reasonableness, but it's still very prevalent. What has happened culturally from your viewpoint that we're dealing with this now?

37:41Because a lot of these kids that were in youth sports back in 2003, they're in the market now. They're leaders are hiring them for jobs, asking them to do things. They underperform. They get in trouble. And now I read some stat the other day that something like 30 % of all job interviews, people are bringing their parents on now. Like their parents, they're bringing their parents on job interview phone calls. It's crazy. I heard it on the all in podcast. I got to find the stat. Yeah, look, what a great question and what a big problem. And I think it ties in, and I'm not going to have any statistics for you on this.

38:20It's just my observations. I think we're living increasingly in a world of, you know, what's in it for me? How do I meet my own personal thing? I meet immediate gratification and satisfaction in all ways. Like if the Amazon thing doesn't get delivered within the next 30 minutes, I'm going to be really angry, you know? And tied to that, what are the expectations? I mean, you look at a, in the sports world, you look like a, like a Patrick Mahomes. Okay. Um, playing a game, very violent game, very fast paced game at its level. But at the end of the day, it's a game. He's making$500 million over a decade to play said game.

38:59Uh, you know, what is the ambition? I want to be like that. I want to be like that. And so you, you, I mean, I think parents might be kind of trying to position their kids to be like that in that thing. They're hyper protective all around to make sure that the kid is doing whatever is best for the kid and not for the team. And the lesson and the ambition here is different. I think it used to be like we're supposed to be learning how to be a team and what it takes to be a person of character on a team and to support the team's good and not to do it for ourselves. Like, hey, coach says I need to lay down a bunt.

39:37That's not actually what I want to do right now. I'd like to jack the home run, you know, so what am I going to do today? I might just go my own way and try to crank the home run. Uh, back then, like if you didn't follow the coach's instruction for the good of the team, you'd be punished for it. And I think the ambition behind what we're doing may be shifting because of what's at stake. I mean, back, back when we were kids, folks weren't signing those kinds of contracts. And, and though the ambition to be like a, whatever the, whatever the hero was of the day was, was still there, um, didn't have as big of an impact, I don't think, as it does these days.

40:08We model or we follow the behavioral patterns of those who we hold in high esteem. And so if they're doing things, it must be okay for us. You talk about, you know, getting fired up about your home run. I mean, name for me an athlete who's not doing that on the big stage right now. I think back to the World Series and some of the things and the bat flips and whatnot. I mean, like, okay, you know, and I see it in my kids. They emulate the folks that they're watching on TV. And so I think it's up to us as parents to help kind of co-design with our kiddos what it is that we're trying to get out of this.

40:41And my ambition in telling the coach, Bencham, was that I'm not trying to limit my son's ability to do what it is that he's capable of. I just want him to be a man of character while he goes about and does that. And he needs to learn to fail now. And it's through navigating that that he'll become his very best, but his best is also going to be, you know, having the self-confidence to know that he's been through tough situations and he's going to be okay on the back end. That's important. Remember when the David Winfield shuffle was considered like risque, the fact that he would just slide to the right twice.

41:20It's crazy. So I have a theory that I want to hit you on with this and you let me know if you think there's any validity to it. So I thought about this topic a lot because I think leadership is incredibly important at all ages in every aspect of our life, leadership of our family, community organizations, our church, if that's what we do, sports teams, community groups, our companies, whatever. And to me, you know, in the research I've done and just I've come up with kind of this idea that I think a lot of this started to happen when we no longer could trust, when we no longer felt the loyalty from the companies that we worked for, that we felt for them, right?

42:04When my dad was coming up through the railroad, my dad's worked for the railroad for 30 years, right? You put in your time. You put in your time, you pay your union dues, and at the end of the day, the railroad takes care of you. You're good, right? They rally behind you. You got health insurance. You got a retirement, it's all good. And then somewhere in between 20, 2000, 2010, the railroad changes rules. And then all of a sudden it became a tiered retirement structure. And then it became, well, if you didn't put in this many years, you didn't get anything. And then it became, well, now we're not offering health insurance anymore.

42:38And then it became, you know, you know, DEI kind of got involved and guys, you know, that got things squirrely. And, you know, and it, it's like all of a sudden this thing that for so long, you know, say, say from the fifties to the maybe late nineties, you know, you pick a company and you commit to them, they commit to you and you're going to be okay on the back. And all of a sudden that doesn't, that doesn't exist today. Right. And to me, I, I, my, my theory on this, and I haven't done any PhD work on it, so I don't have any hard facts, but is that when that break started to happen, it infiltrated all these other aspects of our life.

43:15And we no longer felt that we could trust if we, if we gave our loyalty to the larger organization, that we could trust the larger organization to be loyal to us. And when that started to break down, then in all aspects of our lives, we started, um, we started thinking, well, geez, if the company doesn't have my best interest in mind, well, then I got to look out for me. I'll jump seven companies in seven years. If I can make an extra$20 ,000 and have a better job title and a little more health insurance. Right. And I don't know. I struggle to think that people are wrong in that. Right. I struggle to think that the individual who can't trust the parent company, I don't see it as a bad thing that they look out for themselves because they, I don't know that they can trust a lot of these large organizations.

44:08I don't know. Where, where do you stand on all that? Well, yeah, well, well, for sure. I mean, you know, part of the leadership deal is being trustworthy and fulfilling your obligations and honoring your commitments. All of that, I mean, that's leadership 101. And, I mean, nobody's going to look out for you better than yourself. I mean, I say this as a post-colorectal cancer kind of a guy. Like, I've talked to a lot of doctors. For many of them, I'm just another number, you know, like almost dehumanized. I'm patient number 406, come in, get my thing and whatever. And I realized that I know a lot more about my condition than many of the people that examine me and do whatever, because they may have had like a one hour class on this particular thing, but I'm living it every single day.

44:58And I guarantee you, I'm very, very in tune with what it is that I'm experiencing. So I have to be about me more so than anybody else in order to advocate properly for myself. That said, what is the ambition of a team? I mean, is the ambition of a team for the team to serve its individual members is the ambition of the team to help the individual teammates to achieve their own individual unique aspirations? I mean, the teams that I've been on, it's certainly not been the case. In fact, it's been the opposite. Like everybody subordinates self-interest to the good of the team. And if one of us fails, all of us do.

45:36And it's a totally different dynamic. And so I think if leaders have broken trust by not fulfilling obligations and they've caused folks to then kind of be in the defensive crowd show of I must protect me, then we're doing it totally wrong. Because what's the point of a team? What's the good of a team if we're really not one but in name only? Like everybody's just contributing their piece to keep the boss off the back just so they can figure out where they're going to jump next. Like that's not a fulfilling place to be. and though it may be where people are and maybe it's okay for them to be there because of the broken trust and and the experience that you're describing there with your father I mean that's sad it truly is sad we had this I actually had the same experience when I joined the Air Force when I was at the Air Force Academy as a freshman the chief of staff of the Air Force came and said listen I know I told everybody or you know the rule was when you when you signed up here that if you made it to graduation you were pilot qualified you were going to fly airplanes for the Air Force.

46:34But I just want you to know that as a result of shifting strategy, it's not the case anymore. Only like a quarter of you are going to get a chance to fly. Good luck. We're like, what? And actually, somebody even called out the chief of staff on this like, hey, we have an honor code here. We're supposed to like not, you know, ever lie. Can you reconcile what you've just done with our honor code? I mean, you know, I mean, tensions were high and that does not endear us to the leadership. But fundamentally, there's no point in teaming if it's all about me. Like if you and I are a team, but I'm only going to do the parts that benefit me, let's just call this what it is.

47:13It's the everybody in it for themselves show. And good luck. May the best one of us win. And I do think that it comes back down to we need leaders who honor their obligations, who speak the word and are truthful always, who can then create an environment where it is about the good of the team and about the team achieving mission success together. Meaning that if I sense that you're having a problem over here, Hanley, I'm gonna commit myself to helping you out, giving you whatever gift of time and talent that I've got that can help you to help advance our collective mission because that's what teammates do.

47:49And those are the kinds of organizations that we wanna be on. And if we're not finding that fulfillment here, we're gonna go our own way, create our own companies and hopefully create that dynamic there. And I suppose of all the ills that we describe, if we can then inspired by not replicating what it is that your father's experienced, create a kind of environment that brings the best out of our teammates, then that's a win. And we always do our best when we're surrounded by people that are pointing in the same direction with us. Yes. Yes. And triple yes. Oh, yeah. And it's, I mean, it makes it fun.

48:23Like these days, like one of the squadrons that I used to be a part of, we love hanging out with each other. We're all done. Like none of us is, I don't think, well, maybe there's a few of us that are still in the airport. Most of us are washed up old retired guys now and gals. And we can't wait till the next reunion. And we, I mean, our first reunion was just conducted at a very inopportune time. Like the schedule was not really convenient for anybody. And we all showed up. Some people were only there for a few hours, but they showed up. They flew all the way to Las Vegas to show up, to be there for this thing, because we miss being around one another, because there's something special about work.

49:00Even in high pressure, dangerous situations, working with a bunch of people that actually care about one another and care about achieving success together, that's a really big deal, especially now. It's funny. I have people from previous companies, careers, that you stay connected to. And when you look at the people who you do stay connected to, it's, you know, I hate to use a military analogy in a situation that doesn't make sense, but that we're in the foxhole with you, right? That like, you know, maybe you're part of a company that's a thousand people, but your little business unit of five, you took on this challenge or this client and you got it done.

49:38And it was late nights and tough conversations. And then, you know, you everyone, you know, project gets done. You go your separate ways, but you can come back together on that moment. And there's like a bond there that you can't break. But you've also, you know, you've all of us, I'm sure most of us listening have been in situations where you're given that same task, except everyone's got their own agenda. There's no connection, no bond. Oftentimes the outcome is less than you want it to be. And you can't wait to get away from those people. And in skill level, while I think can add to the value is meaningless to the connection and ultimately to your ability to execute the outcome.

50:17That's right. I mean, you look at teams that have only ever won together. I would argue they're not a team. What really allows us to know that we are one is when we can navigate the challenges together well. Like when the pressure is high, the stakes are super high, everything's riding on this. And we can come through that aware of all of this. It's not that we had our heads buried in the sand and we're blissfully unaware. We're aware of all of this and still manage to get it done correctly. That's a very, very special thing. And those are the things that build bonds that are so special and unique that you'll never forget that.

50:55And you'll actually look back on those hard days as the best of times. That's what's cool. And that foxhole mentality, that's a valid thought that applies literally everywhere. So it goes back to how we started our conversation today. And that is we learn the most from our failures. How we fail really matters. The best teams fail exceptionally well together. Maybe a question for your listeners is at every level, wherever it might be that we team, whether it's at home, whether it's at church, whether it's on the softball team, whether it's at work, how well do we fail together? And maybe that's a good benchmark against which to measure whether we're that kind of team that we want to be.

51:35And I'd say the best teams fail exceptionally well together. They do so in a way that builds the bonds of trust. And everybody comes out of that failure analysis super amped up about wanting to go out there and prove that we've learned from this, how to never fail this way again. And may that be our aspirations. Think about it. I mean, in a relationship, somebody that you love, you get through that honeymoon phase where everything's perfect and everybody's always like super awesome. And you're faced with a stark reality that maybe we are all human beings here and there are challenges. How well we navigate that is going to determine what the rest of the life is going to be like.

52:10And if we can't fail well, we're going to break up. Like this thing is going to end at some point. My wife and I, we try to fail well together. And that's a really, really important, strong ambition for us. We're coming up on 20 years here in January. Hopefully we'll continue to fail well together because that's, I think, how we're measuring how well we're doing as a couple. And I think it applies everywhere. Kujo, I think that's a perfect place to put a pin in our conversation. I appreciate you. I appreciate your time. This has been phenomenal. Better than Paradiso even told me it would be. and uh no i thank you so much where can people besides i'll have links to the book in the show notes i'll have links to anything else that you mentioned where can people get deeper into your world yeah i'd say uh come join us at topgunteamwork.com and uh and learn how to apply the principles that we use in high performance teams to your significant benefit that's a great starting point and uh and i'd add to it thanks for what you're doing in the world hanley thank Thank you for putting this show together.

53:16It's a lot of work. All the background that goes into preparing, all of the things that you know coming into this, navigating everything, putting it all together. That's a big deal on top of everything else that you've got going on. So you're doing an exceptional job from my vantage point. Keep up the outstanding work. Thank you for the opportunity and privilege of being part of yours. And know that I appreciate Paradiso for introducing us to one another. What a great day it's been.

53:49We'll be right back.

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