Why Most Leaders Fail: The Danger of Avoiding Honest Conversations

0:00Hello everyone and welcome back to the show we have a tremendous episode for you today a conversation with Adrian Taylor co-founder and senior partner at take new ground a leadership consulting firm and a leadership consulting a leadership and leadership.

0:30Understanding mixed with empathy and energy that Adrian approaches, what he does is going to get you leaning forward in your seat. It's going to get you taking notes and thinking differently about the way you lead your teams. This is a conversation. This conversation. These are the conversations.

0:56this is why I do this podcast is this conversation right here I do this podcast to bring you conversations like the one you're about to hear enjoy

1:24The whole reason people do podcasts is for free consulting. That's why. Everyone wants to pretend like it's about the audience, but it's really about free consulting. Sure. I asked you the question I ask all guests before they come on. Is there anything that's on your brain that's got you kind of thinking or your wheels spinning? Because as much as I always have a direction, as I told you, I want to talk about the shit that you're fired up about. That's what makes this fun. and you had a conversation with one of your clients and I'd love for you to just maybe break down what you described to me before I told you to, I yelled at you to stop so that we could get it on air.

2:01Just break that conversation down because I think it's a great place to start. Sure. So, hey listeners, thanks for being here. I'm Adrian Kaler. So professionally and just as a passion in life, I have, I search for the most meaningful conversations to get leaders into effective action. um so but i end up coaching fascinating people from all over the world and all different industries and the one that ryan's talking about here is a conversation i had yesterday with a leader who's the brand leader of the fastest growing cosmetic brand in the country and she i got connected to her because she's ex nike and i coached a bunch of nike people and she's elevating and elevating and elevating and uh her boss just said to her yesterday um make sure you're not mothering your team, her executive team.

2:50And I had asked her, well, did you ask him what he meant by that? And she said, no, they kind of laughed it off. And she just assumed she knew what he meant. And I assume I knew what he meant too, and had lots of commentary about, can I please talk to this guy? Because that's, anytime somebody speaks in that much metaphor, they're avoiding conversations. So she has some feedback, he has some feedback for is what I would assert. but then it got me thinking got us in a great conversation about what might be missing in her leadership because maybe she is overcompensating with the the i don't know more feminine spirit which is naturally throughout the ages this isn't and everybody's different right so don't be offended but you know the the natural maternal spirit a feminine spirit is one that supports and sees and corrals and connects and attracts and protects in a certain way, and usually more emotionally as a trend.

3:46And the male spirit, masculine spirit, is more challenge, push, direct, vision, protect with fists or tongue like that. And that generated a huge conversation about leadership and what might be missing for her. And I coach probably 75 % men and 25 % badass women. But it does connect into where my commitment is for my clients, which is to be what I call a fierce advocate for them. And sometimes that's what's missing in leadership is for men to slow down enough and connect and usually to share and to even confess and clean up the relational side of the business. They just think the business strategy and the business plan will win the day.

4:35And it's not that people and, you know, our commitment at our firm take new ground. You know, we know that people generate all the issues and people solve all the issues. And most great leaders, their dysfunction isn't strategic and it's not intellectual. Their dysfunction is relational. So we've got great job security. And we love that. We're all nerds over here. So we're all very tough alpha dudes. We get that, you know, commentary all the time. But also we'll talk about very touchy, deeply emotional, relational context. There's no conversation, we say in the room, there's no conversation too dangerous for us to be in.

5:16So anyway, that's, you're asking what's on my mind. I'm just thinking about how men need to slow down and be more vulnerable in general. women might need to slow down and say the thing that might metaphorically speaking kick the young one out of the nest you know men's dysfunction is get out of here and i don't care if you come back that's dysfunction women's dysfunction is stay here forever and i don't care if you grow i'm speaking in hyperbole obviously but there's lots of room in between that especially if we mold those together as leaders, which is like, hey, I'm going to connect with you deeply, no matter what, even if you don't work for me, I'm here for you.

5:58And if you're going to work for me, you better have it up to the right trajectory personally. Like you need to develop yourself and continue to get better and be ruthlessly connected to current reality, which is always quite frightening for everybody to like put your arms around results. Like results are the mirror for what I actually intended, not my story about what I intended. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. I was actually talking to one of my counterparts. I'm the executive chief marketing officer for an AI company. And I was talking to one of the executives about, in particular,

6:40oh my gosh, I just lost my question. You got it. Well, I'm going to ask you a different question. The audience knows that I do that sometimes. I'll come back to it. I want to dig into, before I come back to where I was going there, you said something that just absolutely captured me. When someone speaks a metaphor, they're avoiding. Can you dive into that while I try to re-rack my brain for the other question that I wanted to ask you? No problem. Well, language always has intention. Always. 100%. We never say anything or don't say anything on accident. So I'll try not to get lost here in some philosophical, but it's good to put a framework up here.

7:14So in my world, I'm always paying attention to a handful of things. One is this formula. I'm guessing your audience loves formulas. So here's a formula for you guys. P plus E plus O over C equals transformation. So P is patterns. E is emphasis. O is omission over context. Context is vision goals, whatever, like what we're actually up to. Patterns, emphasis, omission over context equals transformation. So when someone speaks in generalities, they're avoiding something. So when they speak in generalities, what they're doing is trying to, there's so many ideas here, mesmerize the person with an unknown statement that means whatever they want it to mean.

7:59And it's a gesture towards what they're meaning. And so let's just say we both like the bills. and it's not specific what i mean by that but we you know you're from that part of the country and it's like yeah we both like the bills okay cool but we might actually have very different opinions about what's good and what's bad about them and where they're going in the future and what i hate about the bills and blah blah blah we might have tons of differences but i don't want to get close to it because i'm going to romance you with my gesture towards what you like and so it's anytime i'm i hide in generalities is another way of saying it that's safer up here it's politics is an easy way to look at this you know this is not a political state but we make america great again wonderful who doesn't think that's great of course that's awesome now chunk that down and people start to fall off the wagon at some point in the funnel if you will so there is danger in specificity there's safety in generality that's my point And I could think of a hundred reasons why that's true.

9:04Yeah, I love that. On the show, I refer to what you just described as glazing, right? We like to just put a little glaze on what we're trying to say to make it seem shiny and nice, but we never want to dig in. I figured out what I wanted to ask you or at least get your take on. we were talking internally about this particular thing with our sales team and how the story, I saw this stat online, I think maybe Simon Sinek had shared it, that we feel 90 % of the win in announcing the thing that we're going, in announcing the goal without ever hitting the goal. So by announcing the goal, we're actually capturing all the dopamine and all the positive of emotion that comes with hitting the goal.

9:51And we haven't even done the work yet. And what we were in the conversation we were having internally was around, it's okay to have these goals, but I don't want to hear about what you're going to do. I want to see what you did to get there. And, you know, re reframing the conversation in that way. Um, so that we're actually looking at real activity, not this activity that we're going to do someday, which will get us to this goal that we think sounds really good so that we all feel great about ourselves. And I guess my question for you that I wanted to actually ask was, how do you go about coaching someone through this?

10:29Because I've seen this to be pervasive through entire organizations from CEOs of large companies all the way down to entry-level individuals. They'll tell you all the things they wanna do and then they struggle with the motivation to do the activities to hit the goal because they already feel great about the fact that they set this goal that makes them feel awesome? Yeah. Well, we call that the despair of possibility. So, yes, it's a dopamine hit to say the future is going to be better, right? That's just what a lot of people would call hope. And you can get elected on hope to presidency. That's happened before.

11:06And it works because everybody wants to say, hey, today sucks. Tomorrow's going to be better. Follow me. And that's what we do when we stand up and say, yeah, this quarter's tough, this economy's tough, but just follow me in the future. And we need that as humans. We need that. There's an old, I forget where this is in the Torah, but without vision that people perish, this kind of concept. Yet we do know that if a declaration in the future without commitment is empty and it's despair because we know it's a trick. We know it's a, here's a shiny object. Let's, let us trick the masses into saying the future is going to be better.

11:44We know it at an intrinsic level, like our bodies know it even before our brains do, right? Because we're used to finding tricksters. We've been trained to do this over the eons. So your question was, how do I work with folks? Well, there's, that's a big distinction. So first you must be willing to declare something into the future, like make a promise. That's what transforms reality is make a promise. Like, here's what I'm, here's, this is what's going to happen. And every great leader does that, stands up and says, that's the hill we're going for. But there's a distinction between promise and commitment.

12:12So promise is to go forth from an etymological, and I'm a nerd, so let me nerd out for a second. Etymologically, promise me is to go forth, which is important. I'm going to go to that hill. Commitment is to go with. So prometere, commetere, to go with. Like I am with my word, which is the distinction you're talking about. so I will do no matter what whatever it takes to get there that's what I'm going to do so I'm going to make a plan and I'll prove to you my promise by making a plan and then watch me walk my plan and by the way if it's not if it's not working I will know because I am my word it's not like I'm going to say I'm going to do this and then if it didn't work out I'll come up with 10 reasons which is what most people do it was the economy it was the stupid team it was the competition It was my family member that died, whatever.

13:02Fill in the blank about what external circumstance generated my failure, which is what the human mind is apt to do is be a victim to circumstance. But if you're heroic, then you say, oh, I for my circumstances around my commitment. That's what heroes do. Right. Yes. Most people won't do that. They can, but they won't. Heroes decide to do it anyway. so the when i'm working with people what usually is missing is a if they are deeply connected to the future like we're talking about like i'm clear about where i'm going and where we're going that's necessary but most that's that's kind of easy and it's very satiating it's like eating skittles it's great you know for short term skittles my kids they love it um and then but what they don't do is get equally connected and committed to current reality.

13:56Like a knowledge of a deep understanding of what's happening now. Because if they don't do the math on what generated these results that aren't as good as the one we say we're going to, but if I'm unwilling to put my arms around how I created the crap we're in now, then I, no matter what, will create crap in the future because I am a pattern. And if I'm not, if I don't question myself as a pattern, I will naturally do what my pattern does. Right. So I might have a great vision, have a great plan, but burn people out. That's what got me here. That's what will happen in the future because I am that pattern.

14:33So people aren't willing because it's more vulnerable and it takes more humility to own current reality and furthermore, own how each person around the table co-created what we have. We tend to like to peg it on somebody and it was the CEO or the CFO or the CSO or the CMO like you or whatever. And it was that person instead of, oh, no, no. Every meeting I was in, I created the outcome, even if it wasn't my meeting. So if a team is willing to take that level of ruthless, rigorous responsibility, then we've got a whole ballgame. Then nothing can stop them.

15:11If I'm listening to this and I look out over my team and the table that we sit at and talk, and I don't see that. I see the finger pointing. I see, well, this was Steve's job or Tammy's job or Sally Sue's or whoever and they're the reason why this project didn't get completed. I have that finger pointing going on. How do I start to break down that culture to get to what you're describing? You call me. I mean, that's what... You don't have to call me. Call somebody. Because you're in the culture. So first off, it is hard to do surgery on yourself. And most people won't. And to be honest, most of us can't, including the guy talking right now, because I am so entrenched in my thinking.

16:02And not a lot of our thinking is novel. Most of it's wired into us. And so it's really hard. You know, there's an old transformational saying that, you know, you got to get outside the box. But the instructions to get outside the box are on the outside of the box. So you need to get some feedback. And that's horrific for us as human beings because we're very, without even thinking about it, we wake up into the world egomaniacs. That I am a certain way. This is who I am. And this is who you are. And yeah, it is Tammy. And even that thinking of like judgment and contempt and superiority and victimization, that's just built into the human brain.

16:43We don't get a vote on that. That's just gravity for us. So we call it survival needs, looking good, feeling good, being right, being in control. That's gravity. Now, you can get past that. You can get beyond that or maybe even stand on that, the metaphor we'd really use, because that's not going anywhere. We can look out from that view and then see something. So to more succinctly answer your question, you start with yourself and say, okay, what's here? And get real about what's here. What are the dynamics? And can I get language around them? You must put language around dynamics. That's the first thing.

17:19Language gives us handles for reality. And we all have a sense of what's happening, but we all have different language for what's happening. So if I'm running the show, if I'm the CEO, if I'm answering the question like that, then I've got to work to get language around the current dynamics. We've got tons of frameworks for this, by the way, but this will just give the bullet points. Get language for it. Now, think about if nothing changes, what'll happen next? And walk that all the way out. We call that the parade of horribles. So if this doesn't shift, what's going to happen? You've got to walk it all the way to death, essentially, of the company.

17:57Maybe even everybody gets fired, including you, and public ridicule, and kids run away, and blah, blah, blah. You're like, let it get dirty. Because the human brain moves five times faster to escape hell than to pursue heaven. We know that. So you got to let it get bad because it is true. Something like that is true that if I don't transform this, which might be shut the company down, it might be fire everybody. But anyway, there's lots of layers in between. But if I don't transform this, hell's coming. And I have to motivate myself to shift because nothing has worked up until now. That's what we know that we let it get here on purpose, not on accident.

18:35There are payoffs for it being dysfunctional. These are types of thinking that people don't do because people say it's dysfunctional and I hate it, but they don't mean it. Like they mean it to themselves, but it's not true is what I really mean by that. It's dysfunctional and I love it. How do I know that? Because it's dysfunctional. And if I say, how long has it been this way? They'll say, oh shit, three years. And I'll say, great. This is what you like. And they'll say, no, it's not. And I'll say, prove it to me. And they don't have an answer because they've tolerated it up until now. So there are payoffs to the dysfunction.

19:09Have I lost you? Are we good? No, no, you haven't lost me the opposite. These are my favorite episodes. I have like 4 ,000 different directions that I want to go. So let me finish. I was just making sure. Sometimes I get too philosophical or too away out there and I lose people. So anyway, this is the type of rigorous honesty that someone must take on to transform. Like transform is very distinct from making something better, if that makes sense. We don't want incremental change. We want to transform the thing. So to transform it, the only thing that generates transformation is someone's willingness to take rigorous responsibility for current reality and to be willing to own that and still be hopeful and still be clear about what they're committed to.

19:49Like the Phoenix from the ashes type idea. Like, okay, it's that bad and I can still choose tomorrow who I am right now. I choose for tomorrow. Like it will get better because I will transform. And if a leader that stands up and does that can shift a whole room. there's a reason why they don't and the reason why I don't at times because I take guts and I have to be willing to die like figuratively and you know whatever maybe financially maybe I get fired maybe blah blah blah like you know there's a lot of risk in there but if you're willing to die then you can you know it's like that bet my dad's watching Band of Brothers here I'm home for Thanksgiving um and uh there's a famous scene from Band of Brothers where the sergeant over the or the lieutenant the good-looking guy is and he's in the foxhole with a new guy and he's and the new guys like literally pissing his pants.

20:37You remember the scene? And he says, Oh, I've, uh, the problem is you haven't died yet or something like that. Like the guy already was ready to die. Therefore he could go win the battle, that type of idea. So if you take personal rigorous honesty and do a real clear accounting and then open that up as a leader, like, Hey guys, this is horrible. I know it's horrible. I know you guys hate each other. I just did this in a meeting with a client like this clearly, this rigorously. I said to them, I said, hey, if I'm involved, we're going to transform this culture. And some of you don't want the health you say you want.

21:12And you need to go back home and think about it because you're used to dysfunction. And health is going to require a lot more from you than the dysfunction has. And then they were like, you know, arguing with me for a while, but they got it at a deep level. And they were all nodding by the end, like, oh, yeah, okay. I'm going to have to be honest now. I used to be able to hide and gossip. Now I have to be honest. So as a leader, if you're willing to do that, take rigorous honesty, have all the conversations you've been avoiding, set the standard moving forward for yourself first and then other people.

21:44And then you don't avoid anything moving forward. Like results are a manifestation of conversation always. So it all comes back to the conversational level. And most leaders would rather not talk about the issues just because we're humans and a lot because we're dudes. At least the guys struggle with this more than the women. The women are just better at it, trained. It's more socially acceptable to talk about relational stuff and emotional stuff for women. So there's some bigger climb for guys, but that's why I like working with alpha guys because there's a lot of unlocks that are pretty quick and very rapid and there's a lot of freedom for them.

22:20how much do you think the fluid nature of language in our current environment impacts this? And I know I've even felt this myself where I tend to be okay unintentionally offending someone if I'm being honest with them. And I don't mean that to be hurtful, just trying to say like it is, But I struggle with it as well, where so much of what we say today may not mean the same thing. Words have different meanings. Words are taken out of context. And I have friends that I talk to in leadership positions, and they'll share that they're not even sure. They may want to say – they may honestly – all the things you said, they may be willing to die.

23:06They may want to change. And they're willing to do the work. They literally don't know how to put the words together to communicate the message, not because they don't know what words they want to say, but they're worried that the words they say are going to mean different things or be taken in a way that they don't mean. And now all of a sudden they're going to find themselves in a situation that is not even, you know, not in trouble for addressing the problem, but in trouble for addressing the problem in a way that didn't match a HR requirement. Or, you know, how do we work past some of like, you know, some of the woke nature that are so many organizations have found themselves in?

23:49Wow. Well, this is a whole day long conversation because there's a lot here. You have 29 minutes. That's how I'm joking. But you do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why I'm taking my time with where to begin. So you noticed even as you described it, a lot of it was fear. And that's okay. And it's, you know, because the question isn't how do I say what's true for me? The question is for the person, naturally, is how do I say it so they get what I mean? Yes. Right. And that's impossible. So the meaning of any conversation is in the listener, not in the speaker. We know that neurologically, the meaning of every communication is in the is in the ears of the listener.

24:42So people do use this framework, though, to avoid conversations like I don't know how to say this so that Susie hears it this way. and they use that to keep avoiding. And therefore, they are having the conversation with her. The conversation, though, is it's not worth the fight. That's the conversation they're having. You're so sensitive. This is the other conversation they're having. You're so sensitive, I can't say what I want. So it's condescension. You are so immature, we can't talk about it. That's what that's also saying. Now, I'm being a little bombastic, maybe, or dramatic. but it's pretty close to what's true, just to make the point.

25:25But that's also, so, you know, nature abhors a void, says Peterson, right? So if you don't say something, the conversation is still happening. It's just the one you say you want isn't happening. It's not the one you actually want, because you actually do exactly what you really want. So not having it, avoiding it with all your 55 reasons why I can't, that's the conversation that's there. So I come at it from that premise. But you can't manage someone else's thoughts, but you can obviously influence them. I know that's your background as a sales guy, marketing guy, is you do want to influence. But the best thing to do is to say, here's what I would advise and here's what I'd tell myself is, there's some things I need to talk about, I want to talk about, I think we need to talk about, I don't know how to say them and it's real slippery and there's landmines all over it in the culture.

26:19So can we tap dance for a while and give ourselves some grace? Because I want to kind of describe for you what I'm experiencing. And I hope we have enough grace to really hear each other. So we're going to go real slowly, not because we're idiots, but because these are touchy subjects. And try to make sure we understand each other and really understand where each other is coming from. in, which is always the conversation people are having as well. Like we're listening to someone like I'm listening to you, Ryan. I'm going to be in, uh, also several other conversations at the same time. Do I like Ryan?

26:58Do I trust Ryan? Do I believe in, does he, is he here? Is he an enemy or a friend? Does he have my best interest at heart? Does he understand me? What's he think about me? And all my insecurities are going to fly up. Like all that's going to be happening at the same time just because we have so much RAM available in our brains, right? So we need to put language on that context and clarify where I'm coming from in the point of the conversation because we're going to get lost in the content and we're going to lose the context. Does that make sense? So there's lots of ways to have it, but you got to be willing to have it poorly in order to have it well.