Why Your Passion is Destroying Your Life (And How to Fix It)

28:34So part of it is don't wait to find, you know, to fall in love with another project. Maybe that will come your way. But we also get attached to things because of how much we invest in them. Our investment in something creates the attachment. So if it seems reasonable, even if it's not, that's not the thing I'm dying to do, but if it seems slightly interesting, kind of maybe okay, the minute you start to invest in it, the minute you land somewhere and try something and see how far you can go there, within a while, your investment of trying to do well there will make you more attached to it. You know, I don't know many people who like from, you know, the age of 15, like, I want to do insurance.

29:20You ended up in insurance. It was probably random. I don't mean to interrupt you. No one in the world has ever spoken up that 15

29:28Ryan Hanley:instead they wanted to do insurance. You end up there and then you find your place there and then you're like, I can do this really well. I like this part of it. I like that part of it. You know what I mean? But that's, it's a great example. I'm just using it because it's nothing. It's not something people aspire to. They end up there and then they get really into it because they want to do well there. That's the model. You end up somewhere, choose something, land somewhere, especially if you're young. You know, if you're 60, this is your last gig, whatever. But even then, like choose something and then go for it.

30:02And then within a year of making those efforts, if you don't feel connected or engaged, maybe there's something there that's not working. But usually if you're driven, if you're motivated, if you really want to be successful, if you're competitive, you'll find your place wherever you are. And it will feel satisfying because you're doing the thing. You're pushing towards a specific goal. You're trying to get better. You're trying to do better than. You're trying to, you know, like make a mark. And that can happen anywhere. Yeah.

30:32Ryan Hanley:And I think actually, you know, the career that I ended up in and the people that I found myself around, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I guess I did. But I the point is, it's a common joke in the insurance industry. Like no little boy or little girl's dream is to sell insurance for a living. Like literally there's 500 ,000 of us in the in the country that that, you know, do this job. And, you know, none of us woke up ever going this. But you do develop if you apply yourself. And I can say, you know, guys, if you're not in the insurance industry and you're doing whatever, or you find yourself in some place where you're not passionate, I can tell you firsthand, insurance is the most boring product in history to sell.

31:14Ryan Hanley:It's incredibly important, but it's very boring, very boring. However, you know, I know people who love the number crunching nerdy ones and zeros side. I know people who love the deal making side. I know people who love the sales side, the people side, right? So to your point, and this is, I'm kind of just reframing what you said, by choosing to apply ourselves before passion, before purpose, that action can create the passion and purpose that we're looking for. But we have to be willing to take the action first. That is, yes, exactly correct. And you know what else, where else that happens? Relationships.

31:58So, for example, if you feel a little disconnected from your partner at this point in your career because you're so focused on work and, yeah, it's fine, but the passion's a little not there and, you know, like it's fine to be together, but it's just very transactional, you know, you get the milk, you pay the electric bill, whatever. One thing I recommend to people is, yeah, because you're not investing in that relationship anymore because you've had it for 20 years or for 15 or for 30, whatever, you know. But if you actually spend a month, I'm going to go and have, let's do four date nights, one a week, and I'm going to put effort into creating the most fun date night I can that's going to delight my partner and going to be really, really fun.

32:43Or she has a birthday coming up. Let me see this. Or he has our anniversary. I'm going to surprise him with that. the more you invest in something, the more attached you get, the more you care. So I know it's counterintuitive because you think that you have to care to invest, but investment creates caring. It's true in relationships and it's true in whatever we invest in psychologically. It's a truism. So you can use it to your advantage in any domain.

33:11Ryan Hanley:I picked up a version of this from Jordan Peterson. You're familiar with Jordan Peterson? Yeah. So he, he was at, so I had a health issue back in 2017 that kind of forced me to recalibrate how I approached life. Essentially, I was allowing myself to become a lazy slob and, you know, I didn't want that to be who I was and whatever. So I picked up 12 Rules for Life and started reading it and started watching some of his stuff. And one of the things that stood out to me, and I've tried to apply this from a broader sense, but the point is I watched a video and he was being asked questions after a talk and someone asked him if he believed in God.

33:57Ryan Hanley:And this is back in 2017, 2018. And, you know, he kind of does his Jordan Peterson meandering thought process style of talking that he does. And he ends up on this. He finally says, I'm unsure whether I believe or not at this moment. However, what I know is the best path to success is, in his words, the Bible, right? New Testament and Old Testament. So I act as if he does. And what I have found is by acting as if, I am slowly moving towards belief. That was his answer to that question. And I was very taken by that because I had never heard it framed that way before. I don't know if he was the first or not.

34:46Ryan Hanley:He probably was not, but he framed it that way. And I've seen in the rest of my life that if you want something or you want to be something, the first step isn't massive amounts of research or money or even skill. It's just action in the direction towards the thing. And then, but that takes like a leap of faith. You have to, you know, and I don't necessarily mean faith necessarily in the biblical sense, but you have to believe that that action is going to lead to something. And I feel like a lot of people get hung up there. So - Actually, you can think of it as a leap of faith. Sorry for interrupting.

35:29Or you can think of it as preparation. In other words, if you're station A, let's actually be a little more optimistic, you're station D and you're about to go to station E, like to the fifth jumping point, you're not there yet. You don't know if you'll get that promotion. You don't know if you'll leap up to that level. You don't know if your startup is going to bounce from this valuation to that valuation. But that's when you have to start looking at the people who are there and start to think like them, that's preparation. It's not just a leap of, yes, you can think of it as a leap of faith, but like, I don't know if I'll get promoted, but if you don't start noticing how they think, what their priorities are, how they organize themselves, how they behave, what those, you know, then you're going to get there and be disoriented.

36:14You need to start thinking like that as part of preparation. It's due diligence to my mind. You know, it's more like that. So the leap of faith part, yes, you could say it's a leap of faith, but it's like, but it's more just correct prep, you know, like to my mind in that specific case.

36:33Ryan Hanley:No, I love that. I love the framing of it. And I think, you know, I guess I like that framing better because it feels more accessible because because my you know, I get I get young founders, young in business, not necessarily always in age. Founders will reach out to me because of my career. and you know my advice is usually this is this is cliche and broad strokey and I'm to take it take it for the fact that I understand that that's what it is but it's like you gotta start somewhere like you have to start action like so many people get caught in this paralysis which I which is a lot of what I got caught in post sell post exiting my business right it was like this inaction paralysis I was examining, well, do I want to do M &A now?

37:27Ryan Hanley:Do I want to go back into a sales job? And I got stuck in the only way out. And I credit this podcast for it because it's really when I doubled into saying, you know what? I'm so curious. I love talking to amazing people like you. I feel like I have some skill for questioning you in a way that gets amazing information out. Like, I'm going to push into this for a while and that action got me going how do we break how do people who are listening to this break free how do they pick the action when they're in that it feels like there's a million things they could be doing or should be doing and instead they do nothing and just kind of spin their wheels one of the thing i i one of the things i talk about in in the book and i'm So it's our coping mechanisms.

38:17We have coping mechanisms. That's what allows us to deal with challenges in the world. And my lament in general, it's going to sound tangential, but I'm looping right back to your question. My lament in general is that we don't teach psychology in schools because there's a lot we don't know about our operating system, our mind, but there's a lot we do. And it would be very useful to teach it so that people could understand better what's going on with them. When you are overwhelmed and in paralysis, what typically is going on is that your coping mechanisms, you're not using them intentionally. You are allowing your unconscious mind, your automatic coping mechanisms, take over.

39:02and when your automatic coping mechanisms take over, the ones that you're not paying attention to, because we can't pay attention 24-7. We can pay attention in a moment. We can make a decision, but then we're busy doing things. Automatic coping mechanisms kick in. What those do, and I try and explain this in the book. I'll be very simple about it. What those do is they favor very easy solutions that give you emotional relief. So it'll give you emotional relief by taking you to a fantasy of like, well, maybe one day this will happen. Well, that's not helping you right now. Or a distraction. You know what?

39:32You should check social media. That would be a great idea to do right now. I think there's a chocolate bar in the fridge that I can actually go to right now because it will take you to something that will just numb or make you soothe your feelings in the moment. They're not productive necessarily. They don't have planning and anticipation. They don't have your long-term goals in mind. It's all very short-term relief oriented. And that's what we feel when we're paralyzed. We're not actually thinking about what's the best I need to do now to cope, to feel better. And that's when you have to take over.

40:04And you have to say, all right, let me start doing something. And well, I don't know what to do. That's the point. Here's what you do. You sit down and you write down, what are my goals? You start listing your goals. What can I do today? What are five things I can do right now to move me forward in some kind of way? Who are five people I can talk to that might have been in this situation that might help me get out of it? Who are three people I can call for emotional support who won't just let me vent and feel bad for myself because that will not be helpful, but who will be there, validate my feelings, and then kick me in the ass and say, so what are you going to do about it?

40:45Who are those people? And how can I, when I go talk to them, say, I need two things. I need support and a kick in the ass. I'm asking you for both. So they understand that that's their job. Like you start to look at what can I do? Start making lists. Start writing down ideas. What's the worst thing that I can do right now if I was doing something? Not the paralysis part. Like what's a bad idea? Or like what are some ideas I've had that I disqualify because they're not good enough? What was missing from them? What could I add to that that would sweeten the deal and make it now it's a little bit more interesting?

41:15What are those circumstances? What have I enjoyed about what I've done before? It's the people. How important are the people? Well, maybe they're 60 % important. So maybe that actually the content less important. And when I'm actually looking at things, I need to make sure that the people around me are people I actually want to be working with for what have you. Like, again, if you start thinking in a coping way, you know, long term thinking, breaking it down, problem solving, action items, brainstorming, then you're not paralyzed. But you have to have the wherewithal to understand that unless you take over, this is the thing about work hijacking your life.

41:51It hijacks your coping mechanisms. And the lack of work does the same. It hijacks your coping mechanisms. So you're not in charge. You think you are, but actually you're just kind of days are getting wasted. You're spinning. You're not actually moving in anywhere. You're not getting anywhere because you keep like talking yourself out of it because you're demoralized. You have self-pity going on. You have to take over.

42:12Ryan Hanley:Yeah. one of the things that really concerns me about our current uh society here in the in in the u.s at least um is that it feels like the younger generations uh and i'm gonna bypass the millennials um to the to the whatever they call the next one gen z gen z um because i i talk to these guys and it tends to be more guys for me so I'm not knocking the ladies out for the ladies that are listening I'm sure a guy can square me up here on this but it feels like they're all chasing like I didn't feel when I was in my early 20s I wasted a lot of my early 20s in some ways obviously it made me into the person I am so it's hard to you know I'm not gonna play a time travel game but yeah It feels like they're chasing crypto, the next some AI vibe coded startup, you know, trying day trading.

43:18Ryan Hanley:They're into like, I'm 45. I've invested in the stock market for 30 years, you know, whatever, 25 years. I've never played around with derivatives and futures in my 20s. I would never even think about it. And these guys are on trading apps, you know, essentially gambling all day long. They're, you know, video games and all this stuff. And I don't, I guess it just feels like there's no early training for the younger, for our kids and ultimately these young generations to eat. There's like almost no incentive structure set up for them to think long term, right? I completely and utterly agree with everything that you said, but we have two generations.

44:00Ryan Hanley:I think the millennials are particularly bad for a couple of reasons, but certainly in Gen Z, there's very few incentives for them to think long term. They can't foresee ever buying a house because of the economy. They're being told not to get married until they're later. You know, all these structures that would in previous generations, even as, you know, even mine, you know, right on the edge of the millennials, like buying a house locks you into long term thinking. You have a mortgage for 30 years. Like I need to I need to put something in place. You get married or you have a long-term partner and you start thinking long-term.

44:37Ryan Hanley:You have kids that start thinking long-term. Today, it feels like none of those incentive structures are in place or are even advocated for or are advocated against. So how does that generation or if we're mentoring them, let's say I'm listening to this and I'm 45, 55, 65 and I have some mentors in that generation, how do we help them to start thinking longer term to set their lives up so they're not dealing with this coping mechanism, you know, instant gratification for their entire lives? It doesn't dictate their entire lives. Look, they have a couple of challenges which we need to acknowledge.

45:12Number one, and I think the most urgent is what they're hearing around them is there's no point in investing in a career because AI might demolish that career in five years time, two years time, 10 years time, we don't know. So why invest in a long term career path where you have no idea where that's a viable path to begin with because of AI? So that over the past two or three years has been very much present for a lot of people. And it's happening in all kinds of industries. Secondly, and you know, now a little bit more in the background, but in fact, still in the foreground is climate change.

45:47Well, you know, the world's gonna, you know, circled the drain in just a couple of decades anyway. So, you know, I don't know where you're building that house, but it might be underwater. You know, so there are a couple of major things that are making them feel like, yeah, I don't know where the world's going to be. Why am I, you know, there's no sure path because those paths might be completely washed away, taken away, what have you. Now, when I grew up, it was a generation where school kids had to practice once or whatever, hiding under their desk from the nuclear blast. Either way, desk is not going to help, you know, nuclear blast, but that's fine.

46:26You know, we'll put that aside for a minute. But, you know, you had those exercises of like, oh, the air raid sirens, everyone's nuking, let's hide under the desk and hope for the best. So, you know, the world was about to end then as well. And then there was Y2K, where all the computers are about to stop, and we're going to go back to being Luddites and primitives because it was a computer bug. People don't know it if they're too young. Look up Y2K. It was a big thing until the stroke of midnight happened in 1999. 2000 happened and everything was still okay. And then the millennials, they came out into the workplace where the great recession was happening and they couldn't get you.

47:05There's always something. But here's the thing. For Gen Z, one thing you said is right. When you get married, that's going to do something. But when you have kids, then the idea of, oh, how can I guarantee I can feed these young ones for a while will create a little bit more urgency. This search for the day trading, the crypto, the derivatives, the apps, there are searches for quick solutions. there are too many models which they see in social media and the general media of people in their 20s who got really wealthy, who struck it rich, developed the killer app, who founded the company that had the great exit.

47:53They see too many of those people, and there are quite a few of them. But for every one of them, there's what, 100, 1 ,000 that didn't, who we don't see, who are invisible to us. So it's very misleading, this idea that, yeah, you can get rich in crypto. Crypto's not having a moment at the moment. You know, it's like, so, you know, what's that doing to your self-esteem, to your finances, etc.? It's creating panic. And gambling is a very addictive thing. It's the promise of instant success. But, you know, the house always wins often. And so, like, you know, and in this, like many people lose. It's tempting to go toward that solution.

48:34And if you're mentoring people in Gen Z, you need to talk about hedging bets. Hedging, you know, if you're gambling on crypto, if you're gambling in the stock market, how are you hedging your bets? It's fine to be in the short term in some way. What are you building in the long term as a hedge? What are you investing in that will be there for you regardless of whatever happens with this? Maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones and you'll be able to toss the other plan aside. But if not, what is the other plan? What is the career that you're actually building? What are the skill sets that you're actually acquiring?

49:12What is the knowledge base that you're internalizing? That will set you up in the long term. You have to hedge your bets. You can't go all out on the fantasy because only very few people get to have it. So it's not wise. Do that if you must. But what are you building that's more stable? that requires a long-term view. You can and should do both. Let me help you with the other one, because you can do your crypto trading, you can do whatever. Let me help you build a thing that will give you some assurance and take away some of the panic and some of the anxiety when things don't go well on that front.

49:50Because you know, I have a backup here. I'm working on this. I'm working on this stable thing. And if you think you can't do both, you can do both. stop gaming for five hours a day you'll find you have the time

50:04Ryan Hanley:yeah I um it's funny uh like the cobbler shoes you know cliche where you see things in in other people or other instances but when you're looking in the mirror it's like those things are invisible to you um I I tell founders really anybody that I work with one of the first things that I'll talk to them about is just doing an audit for a day. Just take a piece of paper. I'll tell them it's most likely going to be annoying as hell. I get it. But for one whole day, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, just make a quick note on what you do every 15 minutes. Just see what it looks like.

50:45Ryan Hanley:What does it look like? And the two other things I do is pull up their calendar and I pull up their Instagram feed. Because when you look at someone's Instagram feed, you know where they're giving their attention to. It's really interesting because the algorithm Algorithm, you know, one misunderstanding that I think people have about the algorithms is that they are trying to feed you things. It's not true. Trying to feed you what you're eating. What you're eating, exactly. So it's like, if you're pissed that your feed has a bunch of negative crap in it, that's because you're giving attention to the negative crap.

51:19Ryan Hanley:Like, if you look at my Instagram feed, it's how to coach baseball, like Wu-Tang derivative songs, and like comedy stuff. I'm with you I've trained my Instagram feed I mean not to be but like if I go on reels I'll get two things I'll get stand up I'll get puppies that's what I want to see if you're showing me something else I'm not going to pay attention and I've trained it and it's just puppies which and the cutest and stand up great that's what I need and I'm not going to do that for an hour I'm going to do that for five minutes if I need it it'll make me smile off I go but you can train your feed you can train the algorithm the algorithm's interested in what you're interested in So don't be interested in the stuff that's outraging and upsetting and this and that.

52:01Just train it to show you the stuff that you need for a break.

52:05Ryan Hanley:It's so wild what you find out about yourself when you do these little exercises because you find, well, geez, I screwed around on my phone for a half hour in the middle of the day. Like maybe I wouldn't have foot and feel the need to be answering emails at 6 p.m. if I hadn't screwed around at 11 o 'clock in the afternoon or, you know, whatever, if you need that time to decompress. but it's funny what you find. So I wanna wrap up our conversation today with a takeaway for the audience. One of the things that you had mentioned earlier and we had kind of skipped past it was a method that you have that you talk about in your book for kind of catching yourself when you're in these moments.

52:48Ryan Hanley:So someone's listened to this and they find themselves in the scenario that we have discussed, right? That they're overworking or, you know, they're just way over indexed on the things that on activity and very little limited substance. And they want to start to make this change. How do they, sometimes it feels like just catching yourself in these moments is like the biggest step of them all. how do you help people like figure out or even you know stop the bleed when they're in these overworking pressed till the end of the day you know kind of kind of mentalities how how do they crack out of that cycle well look the exercise in the book it's just it's a it's a multi-page assessment of you know like how much are you taking care of this how much are you dealing with these things.

53:40But it's truly about what matters to you in life. When is the last time you spent quality time, and I'm going to define quality time, your phone wasn't on you? Not in your pocket? Not by you? It wasn't in sight? Because if it's in sight, we will look at it every five seconds. When's the last time you spent quality time with your partner without a phone present? When is the last time you went for two hours at home in the evening without checking work, messages, or emails? When is the last time you were with your kids, again, without the phone, that you were actually present and enjoying whatever was going on there?

54:23And for many people, it's been a while. When is the last time you did something that makes you smile that's just for you? selfish, quote-unquote, if you must. When is the last time that you did something that you had to force yourself to do because you were too tired to do it, but you knew that if you force yourself to do it, when you come back from it, you will be rejuvenated, you'll have a second win, and you'll be like, I'm so glad I made myself do that because I thought it was more important to do something else, but now I forced myself to go to the event, and I'm so glad I did. When's the last time you had that, I'm so glad I did that feeling, not about work.

54:59And I promise you for a lot of people, they're going to have to really scratch their head on that one. And then if you're scratching your head, start marking your calendar with when you will be doing these things and make sure you do them regularly. And accountability is a calendar. You can see if it's in there, plan for it slot it out make you know like schedule it and make sure you do these things because that's what will take you out of the hole you know you have to this audit is a very important thing one way to do it is indeed to look at what you're doing day to day but the other is to look at your mental state if you're just like totally revved up all the time i just want to say just one thing about that you know the revved up thing that you're totally in gear all the time.

55:47We are not designed that way. We evolved to be activated when there was a war going on, when there was a hunt going on because we're hunter-gatherers. Not all the time. And our workplace is the modern battlefield and we are switched on and in fight or flight 14, 15 hours a day, day after day after day after day. It is a wear and tear on our body and on our mind, on our emotions. We cannot afford it. That's where burnout happens, that when numbness kicks in, that's where you lose sight of what you're doing it for. So do an audit, not just in terms of your time, but in terms of like, how are you feeling about things?

56:26How are you feeling about what you're doing? How are you feeling about your life? And if you're on hold, because I just need to get here before I'll be able to start feeling good, how long have you been on hold like that? How long has it been in waiting mode? Because if you just do this, and then you just and that can get kicked down the road. So just self-reflect and take responsibility. Dr.

56:46Ryan Hanley:Guy Winch, my friends, the book is Mind Over Grind. This has been incredible. And I appreciate you allowing this to be a quasi-therapy session for me as it just hits home. And I think my testament to the work that you're doing is that as just a classic overworker workaholic, I have done my best work when I had control over what you're talking about. And I've never, I can never, when I have pressed too hard and been in this overwork, I've never had things come out of that where I'm like, that's my best work. It is always when I have a grip on a really solid harmony. and I love that you've written this book.

57:36Ryan Hanley:I love that you're out here doing this because so many, like, this is, I'll wrap it up this way. I've been blessed to speak to over 700 incredibly smart, highly successful individuals like yourselves. None of them relate their success back to, well, I grinded 20 hours a day for years. None of them. They always, if they even did that, they always talk about the regret they have around it. This is, while posterized on social media, no one I know who is truly successful and happy in any regard lives this grind all the time lifestyle. Nobody. And I'm so glad you're out here. Where can people go deeper into your role?

58:20Ryan Hanley:We'll obviously have the book linked up in the show notes. So whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on wherever you listen to podcasts, just scroll down guys, or just go to Amazon. It's Mind Over Grind. but where can they follow you and get deeper into your work? It's Guy Winch G-U-Y-W-I-N-C-H it's guywinch.com is my website they can follow me on LinkedIn on Instagram again at Guy Winch but through my website and through my socials they can get more information and yes just mind over grind the subtitle How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life because a lot of us are hijacked I hope people enjoy it I appreciate you thank you so much we're out of here peace

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