Why GM's CEO Mary Barra is Still Bullish on Electric Vehicles

0:06Mary Barra is General Motors. She began working on a GM factory floor at age 18 and 46 years later she's now running the company. Mary rose to CEO during one of the biggest safety crises in General Motors history. Since then, Mary has transformed the company into one that generates over$180 billion in annual revenue. GM currently ranks number 23 on the Fortune 500. But today, she faces a whole new set of challenges. Fierce competition from China, shifting EV policy, and the rise of artificial intelligence and autonomous vehicles. After more than four decades at GM, Mary told us how she intends to steer the company into the next century.

0:46I sit down with her today for an hour to talk through all that and more for this episode of Fortune 500, Titans and Disruptors of Industry. We'll be back after a message from our sponsors.

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2:18Mary Barra, it is such a pleasure to be with you today in this gorgeous Cadillac facility you have. I'm surrounded by stunning cars that I want to buy. I love to hear that. I love to hear that. GM is a hundred years plus old,$185 billion annualized revenue company. You are number 23 on the Fortune 500, number 39 globally of all the companies in the world. You're 39th in revenue generation. Such a pleasure to have you. Well, it's great to be here and it's so nice to spend some time with you. And I'm so proud of everything that General Motors has accomplish. And you should be, and a lot under your tenure.

2:52So I want to cover a lot of ground, but first I just want to start with 2026. The last two quarters have really had a strong financial performance in a year where that was not a given. You were combating tariff changes, an EV rollback to schedule, a lot going on. So what is behind the resilience that we're seeing in GM this year? Well, I think first of all, I have to give credit to the General Motors team. Agility is their superpower now. And also, we have a really strong product portfolio. I'm so pleased, and you can see some of them around us right now. And when you have a really strong product portfolio, it speaks to the customer, and they're choosing us.

3:31We have much lower than industry incentives. We're either usually one or two, and we're growing share. And so I think it really speaks to the strength of the underlying product that we have, and that really fuels everything. And then I think there was a lot, there's been predictions for the last several years. Oh, this is peak. This is peak. I still think there's more room. We're seeing it this year. And the customer, our customer for new vehicles has been more resilient than I think people thought. I look at the metrics every couple weeks, and we still see strength in the market from a vehicle perspective.

4:03It seems like customer demand, which was predicted to be waning, really hasn't felt that in the U.S. And that seems like Americans still love their gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, of which you make them quite well. Well, I do think, and one of the things that we have with our portfolio is getting the customer choice, whether they want a full-size truck or SUV or even, you know, a small under$30 ,000 crossover vehicle. And then we still have over a dozen EVs. So we really give the customer a lot of choice and reach a lot of pocketbooks, as Alfred Sloan would say. And I think that's one of the strengths because wherever the customer is, we have a vehicle.

4:41And again, beautifully styled with the latest technology and safety features. So one thing I did want to address is just the affordability around cars. And I know GM makes a number of cars that are below the$50 ,000 threshold, but the average cost of buying a car is now hovering around that. For someone looking to buy a car, can you explain what's going on in the industry? Why are cars now feeling so expensive? I think if you actually look at the rate of inflation over several years, vehicles are lower than that, so from a price increase perspective. But again, I think it comes to having a portfolio where when we have, I think last year we sold over 700 ,000 vehicles that were under$35 ,000.

5:24And so I think it speaks to the affordability. I drove when we first released the Chevrolet Trax, which is a vehicle that's under 30. I drove it for a couple months. I love that vehicle. It had safety features. It had great technology from a center screen perspective and everything that you could do to make your drive better. And so I think it's giving customers the feature and making it affordable at the different price points for the functionality of vehicle that they're looking for. EV ambitions for GM, or the timeline for them at least, has changed. A few years ago, it was all in. By 2035, they're going to be lightweight EV models all over the United States.

6:03That timeline has changed. You're now thinking the transition to EVs will take decades, and it hasn't been an easy road. I'm curious why you think America has screwed up the EV transition. What did we do wrong? Because when you look at China, when you look at Europe, they're flourishing in EVs. Well, I think it has a lot to do with the regulatory environment. So when you look at where all auto companies in the U.S. were a couple years ago, we were moving to a regulatory environment where you had to be making 40 to 50 percent of your EVs. by 2030, or your vehicles had to be EVs by 2030. And so I think that's where we were all moving to.

6:39As the regulatory environment changed, that has allowed and really given customers choice. And I think one of the fundamentals also, though, is what enables EVs is charging infrastructure. And although there were funds passed in the infrastructure bill a few years ago, it's been difficult due to permitting and a whole bunch of it to get those in the ground. We still see, though, every quarter the number of chargers goes up. So I think over time we still believe EVs are the endgame from just the styling, what it enables, you know, that instant torque and never having to go to the gas station. And so I think regulatory, though, when you look at Europe and China, that's really what's driven it, along with then, I'll say, other policies that enable the charging infrastructure to be robust.

7:25because let's remember when someone buys a car, for most people, it's the most expensive or the second most expensive thing they buy. They're very rational. And most people don't have multiple vehicles. They have, if there's two people in the family, they have two vehicles, but they both need them every day to get to work, to take care of their family. And so they're very rational about, is this gonna meet my needs? Not just, you know, in a typical week, but when I wanna go on vacation or I've gotta go drop a child off at college or I've got to go visit my parents. They look at it holistically, and that's why charging infrastructure is so important for people to have confidence to switch to EVs.

8:02I think we'll get there. I think because of the policy in this country, it's going to take a little longer. And in the meantime, we have a great and very efficient internal combustion engine portfolio, and we have a very strong EV portfolio, and we'll have hybrids in the segments we think are important to give customers a full range, and they can pick what they want. So I think you touched on an interesting point that must be a little frustrating as a leader, where every CEO who's running Fortune 500 has to deal with Washington in some way, shape or form. But your efforts are so also tied, it seems, to whoever's in the White House and what their agenda is.

8:41So how do you create a nimble org, no matter who the president is? Biden was very pro-EV. Let's create incentive programs. President Trump has not been as focused on that. And it's shifted the mission for GM, it seems. How do you navigate? Well, I don't think it's shifted our mission. Again, I think we still think EVs are the end game. And I think, you know, when I've had conversations with President Trump, he's talked about wanting to give customers choice, not wanting to force them into something. So we can definitely do that. We do constantly remind all administrations we're a capital intensive, long lead industry.

9:17and so people have to respect that. But what we've tried to do is, again, having a robust portfolio of both, but then also, you know, the minute we start to sense something might change, what are these no-risk decisions or these no-regret decisions we can make to say, okay, how can we prepare for this? We did that as we started to see the regulatory front changing. We also, as we started to see tariffs, what are no-regret moves and then what are the shifts we need to make? And that's where I think, again, our team, I'm so proud of them because they're so resilient and figuring out, and like I said, agility is a superpower now, but it's agility partnered with looking over the horizon to say, okay, there's a variety of regulatory environments we could face.

9:59What's the best path forward that we're not totally out of business if it heads one way or the other? And I think that's what you see GM doing. That's why, unlike many others who have just really abandoned EVs, we're not. We're really proud of the EVs we've had, but we're equally proud of the ICE vehicles. So we're going to continue to give that customer choice. A few years ago, GM announced plans for all new light-duty vehicles to be electric by 2035. But shifting U.S. EV regulations, as well as strong international competition where newer auto giants like BYD are being boosted by national subsidies, are significantly slowing progress towards the goal.

10:39GM still says EVs are the end goal, but maybe not by 2035. Mary believes that American innovation, from AI-powered vehicle design to self-driving, will keep GM and the U.S. competitive as a manufacturing powerhouse. There are other decisions that have been made in Washington that have helped the American car businesses quite a lot. We don't see the China electric vehicles all over the place in the U.S. like you do see in Europe and China. I'm curious what you make of the rise of a company like BYD internationally. Additionally, they have a huge chunk of the EV market now, but their prices are, you can compete when China is subsidizing a car that low.

11:17It's like a$15 ,000 vehicle. You won't make money if you sell for that. So first off, how long do you think the subsidies can last in China? And what's your long-term approach to, how do you wait that out? Well, I think, first of all, in China, you know, we've taken a long-term view. We've had a successful business in China for many years. And, you know, as we saw it dramatically changing with EVs and the growth of a lot of domestic auto manufacturers, we took the steps to restructure our business. I think we're the only Western OEM that is growing, growing share ever so slight and also return to profitability.

11:53And so we think it's an important market to be in because it is, even though it's a little smaller than it was a couple of years ago, it's the largest EV market around the globe. But as we look at other markets, I've often said, I'm a free trader if I have a level playing field. And there really hasn't been a level playing field. And I think that's something this country recognizes. They also recognize the importance of having a strong manufacturing base. I mean, I think many people realize through COVID, being able to make things matters. And so I think when I look at the policies in the U.S., many of which are no different than what China is doing for their own market, I think we're well positioned.

12:32Europe right now, I think, is still sorting. I mean, you've seen a lot of the established European OEMs really struggling. And I think from a U.S. perspective, recognizing and looking at the policies that are in China and here, I think, has been helpful for the U.S. auto industry to allow us to rein stung. But I also say we have to drive efficiency across the board. So we're always working on how do we give the customer more, how do we do it for less, how do we leverage technology? and that's a journey we'll never end. And how do you decide when a market is worth staying in? In China, you've had business there forever, it seems, like for a long, long time, and you've made it profitable and you've made it work, but how do you decide, okay, I'm going to lean into this market and I'm going to maybe wait it out until the conditions get ripe and we can really take it over again?

13:19I know you have a fruitful partnership there as well, versus like a Europe, how do you decide where to lean in and where to lean out? We made the decision to sell our European operations to Peugeot at the time, PSA. And that was, I think, a really good decision for General Motors, because at that time, we were subscale. And as we also saw a very big regulatory change happening in Europe, when you're subscaling, you've got to make that investment. It becomes very difficult from a shareholder, our owner's perspective of, is it a good use of our capital? So we think selling Opal ended up being a win-win-win, a win for General Motors.

13:55a win for PSA because they got more scale, and a win for the Opel brand and the team there. So I've obviously said I have no regret from making that decision. We stand ready. We export to Europe right now, primarily with EVs, because that's where that market's going. And I think as that market stabilizes, we can grow business there. So I think Europe now becomes an opportunity for GM in the future. So as we look at the landscape, it does strike me that China has a clear advantage in some technologies that will really shape the future right now, whether it's robotics and physical AI, batteries.

14:29They're very strong in chips. They're not necessarily stronger than the United States. But a lot of the things that GM utilizes and that just companies need to utilize, even energy, are really strong there. Do you worry for American companies in the long term when you see the strides that China's making? Well, I think we, as business leaders, we have to make sure that we're on that same pace and that we understand it and we're moving at a pace that we're going to be able to compete investing in technology. I'm really proud of the fact that in China, our vehicles, for instance, from an infotainment perspective, independently rated number one with the system we rolled out about a year ago and are rolling across the portfolio, competing with all of the big Chinese OEMs.

15:11So I don't think there's any reason we can't do that. I think we're making strides and there's a tremendous number of robotic startups in this country as well. So I believe in American ingenuity and innovation. And I think we can we can compete. I think the fast paced technology moves right now. There's moments in time. But I bet on America continuing to lead in innovation. One of the most exciting things. I know you've been in a Waymo. I know you've been in a self-driving vehicle. If you've never been in one, it is one of those futuristic things that you're just like, the world has changed. I might never have to drive again or my kids might never have to drive again in the near future.

15:50I know you've gone through a journey with autonomous technology and some acquisitions and even some building of your own. Super Cruise is an amazing, not new line of business, but a growing line of business for you. I'm curious just how you think about the autonomous vehicle landscape and your decision to go into personal autonomous vehicles. When will that be a reality for the American consumer? When will I be buying a GM self-driving car that's entirely self-driving? I'm done making predictions because I originally predicted that in 2019 we'd be on the road. And obviously, you know, autonomy.

16:26A lot of people did. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And autonomy is one of the ultimate AI and robotic challenges when you think about all the different just situations that a vehicle goes through. And so I believe we'll get there. I believe from a personal autonomy, GM will be one of the leaders, if not the leader from personal autonomy. I'm excited that in 2028, that's when we've announced that we'll have our eyes off the road highway on the Escalade IQ. And then we'll just keep it expanding from there. I'm really proud of what we have with Super Cruise, because what we've done with Super Cruise is we've really, I think, built trust.

17:02That system continually is very highly rated from just acting the way someone expects it to act, and we're proud of the safety, and that kind of gates everything we do. So I think we'll get there. We'll keep building with 28 of not only more areas that the vehicle can be operating fully autonomous, but then also adding at the same time across the portfolio. So it's going to be an exciting time. Very. And like I said, so many people were predicting in 2019 that self-driving cars would be here. That last mile, it turns out, is really, really difficult. Really hard, yeah. And I know how much you care about safety and trust, given all you've had to overcome here at GM.

17:40And we'll talk about some of those things. Sure. But I wanted to just one last question is, do you think that personal autonomous vehicles will even be cars? There's talk of drones, flying drones. There's talk of all sorts of things, little pods. Does the vehicle of the future look different? You know, I think it will continue to evolve, just like vehicles have evolved today from what they were even 10, 20 years ago. So I think they'll evolve for many different use cases the technology will enable. But that's an exciting piece of it, too. And, you know, we have an advanced design team that constantly is imagining that future.

18:13So someday we'll have to take you in there. I would love to see. Yeah, we'll take the camera crew. Well, maybe some of it. The next biggest upgrades to GM cars may not be in size, shape or color. Instead, it might be what's running inside the vehicles. General Motors is building its future in code through autonomous driving vehicles like Super Cruise and connected support and control systems like OnStar. Both Super Cruise and OnStar are subscription based services which provide high margin revenue streams for the company. According to GM, a software business retains about 70 cents for every dollar it earns.

18:49When you see a big technology shift coming, as a major company, you can either build or you can buy. And one technology you bought was Cruise. And a lot of money was spent there. And then ultimately, Cruise was unwound. But it was like a Waymo competitor. And ultimately, you decided, you know, we're not a fleets company. We're not going to do robo-taxis. We're going to do personal. but I'm curious about the learnings from an acquisition like Cruise that you had and how other leaders should be thinking about when to acquire and when not to, when to let like kind of the future unfold before you make a big spend like that.

19:25Well, I think with what we knew at the time, I would probably do make the same decision over again. And we learned a lot and a lot of the capability that we had at Cruise, we were able to leverage as we work on personal autonomy. So So I think there's a lot that transferred. Much of the team is so committed, which is so cool to see, to achieving autonomous personal vehicles. And so I look at it. Yeah, were there changes I wish I would have made? But I would also say we were a generation back on technology. So the investment not only was we're going to have to make a lot of investment in time to get to how technology and how autonomy is being done today, but then also it was a big decision.

20:07Again, we're stewards of our shareholders' capital. And when we looked at investing in internal combustion engine and EV vehicles, a fleet, like you mentioned, is not something we do today. We don't run a bus fleet. We don't run a taxi fleet. And so we started to look at what's our core competency? Where do we have to go? And frankly, there's a lot of differences in autonomy from a robo-taxi to personal autonomy. So that's where we're focused because I think that's where our strength is. And when you look at AI and robotics, this is clearly technology you've been utilizing for a long time, whether it's on the manufacturing floor or it's even in a job capacity to make roles that were unsafe done in another way.

20:45Right. I'm curious how AI and physical AI or robotics has changed GM already and how much change you anticipate happening over the next few years. You know, as you said, we have been on this journey for a long time and it starts with our people. And how do we use technology to make our people more effective, to get rid of jobs that are hard from a safety perspective or create ergonomic issues or are dirty or hard to do with, you know, with a human hand where so often the agility of a human is so important. So we look at technologies. How do we use it to enhance what our team is doing, give them the tools to take toil out, to improve quality, and improve speed?

21:27Because that just means we can give the customer more. So, you know, we're focused on both, you know, from a back office perspective, what are the tools that make everyone's life better and exposing everyone. So it's not something that's kind of scary. It's really like, oh, okay, I get this. I can use this. I was just in one of our manufacturing plants last week, and they were showing me, one of the skilled trades individuals was showing me how they're using AI to improve the speed of starting up new equipment faster. And I was just so amazed because now that it's in their hands, they're leveraging it.

21:59And then there's whole areas we're looking at, for instance, and how do we do more work using AI from an aerodynamic perspective, which means we can explore more design themes to really perfect design. So that's exciting when I see those things. And then we're looking at other areas that will completely transform what we do. So we're going to continue on that journey. Again, I actually, every other week, I deep dive an area with a small team. And I just like, okay, show me how you're using AI. And it's been fascinating. It's far exceeded my expectations for how quickly across the company from the plant floor to R &D, they're leveraging the technology to make GM better.

22:40Is there any example that you were just like, wow, I can't believe we're able to do this now? Well, one in design was really cool because it used to be we would do a design and you'd kind of estimate what the aerodynamics, but to really know you had to put it in the wind tunnel. So that meant you had to build a physical property. They showed me a tool now where we can explore many designs so they can change a little feature and the tool will accurately predict what the arrow is. And then, you know, so again, we can explore. Like a simulated environment? Yeah, it's just all on a screen. And they can, you know, literally seeing the designer sketch, put it in the system, understanding how that line and that dimensional change changed the aerodynamics.

23:20And so it really is, it's giving them a wonderful feedback tool that they can keep pushing and exploring because aero is so important, whether you're talking about the fuel efficiency of an internal combustion vehicle or the battery range on an electric vehicle. And just seeing how quick they could do that. And then, you know, that final property, that final design, we will still build it and put it in the wind tunnel. But who knows, maybe at some point the technology will be so accurate we won't even do that. But that was something that really got me excited because seeing a designer being able to really explore more is fun.

23:54You're using AI to power things like Super Cruise, which over a billion miles driven with Super Cruise. Over a billion miles driven with Super Cruise, yes. As of April. And the margins are really good. A little bit better than making a car. Generally, software has better margins than hardware. So we're excited. Are you looking to do more, like to become more of like a software and a manufacturer? Absolutely. You know, I talked about the strength of our vehicle portfolio and customers choosing our vehicles. And we, you know, we have lower incentives than most of the rest of industry. But then on that is leveraging all the people who have OnStar and that subscription service and then people signing up for Super Cruise.

24:29And the beauty of it is we can keep making both of those services better. It all comes down to talent. And we brought in some tremendous talent and built on the talent that we had in the company to really have a product management and timeline for software as well as the vehicles themselves, which I think gives us a whole other dimension to grow at a different margin perspective. So I'm excited about that with the ultimate beam when we can do Super Cruise 3 and beyond with eyes off the road autonomy. Super Cruise, just for the people who don't know, is a bit of assisted driving to the point where you said eyes off in 2028 potentially?