The Ellisons are the new Murdochs (and we're ready for Succession round 2)

0:05This week on Great Chat, we discuss the changing landscape of media, how technology and storytelling is impacting the content business. I'm Sally, and this week we're joined by Angela and Ashley. Great Chat is brought to you by Mercury, the fintech used by entrepreneurs through every stage of company building. We use Mercury to run this podcast and we love recommending it to our founders and fund managers. Try it yourself. Visit mercury.com to join over 200 ,000 entrepreneurs to use Mercury to make managing their money unbelievably simple. Hello. Hi. I think we're all in San Francisco right now.

0:43It's conference season. Ashley, how was TechCrunch yesterday? You know, it was good. It felt a little quieter than when I was there two years ago. And I don't know if that was actually because it was just like better managed. Like two years ago, there was this long line to even register. And this time it was very smooth and efficient. But yeah, it was great. Helen and I did a little like we called it the great chat mini and we definitely promoted the pod so we have like five new listeners guys um but we did something in partnership with Mercury our um great chat sponsor they had this awesome um sort of like booth slash stage and uh we did a little conversation on our favorite topic startup awareness building and how do you break through the noise in this crazy moment and it was actually it was actually really good like people were super super engaged.

1:38We had like a crowd around the, around the booth. So I think Helen and I both had a lot of fun. I love that. I'll be heading to Napa in a few hours. Thanks to Jessica Lesson and the information summit. So I'm excited about that. That's awesome. I went last year and it's awesome. Like, I don't know if it was maybe, um, I mean the caliber of people also, it's just fun for me to be back in like the Bay area and run into so many people. Um, but I felt like it was one of those conferences where people weren't performing. They were actually saying what they think. And maybe it was the all-woman audience changes some of the dynamics.

2:17I don't know, but I can't wait to hear what you think. I was a huge fan and bummed to miss it this year. But I have another conference to get back to in New York. The vibes are back in San Francisco. I mean, I'm heading to the Goldman-Pick conference in Vegas in a few weeks, but that's also right before the F1 event. So if any of our listeners have messed up with F1, slide into my DMs. I want to go. Angela, let it loose in Vegas. I was talking to a girlfriend of mine, and she was like, I last minute got invited to the F1 event in Mexico City this weekend. So I flew from New York to Mexico City, and the vibes were great.

3:01And now she's gone down a whole rabbit hole of F1 content and WAGs of F1 driver content. So I'm just, I'm waiting to be dragged down that rabbit hole. I'm ready. Oh my gosh. I'm ready. I've been resisting that rabbit hole. Like I'm afraid to watch the series. I just, I don't currently have space for it in my life. So I'm a holdout. But Angela, if you've given to the rabbit hole, let me know how it is. They've done an amazing job on their social media strategy. They just did a whole interview series with the, I forgot her name. I think her name is Amanda who does Chicken Shop Date. Oh, Amelia. Oh, yeah.

3:39I love her. Good. Yeah. Wow. That is not a partnership I saw coming. Yeah, no. And it's very well done. That must be a sign that their audience is so much broader than I thought it was. Like, I don't know. I have lots of assumptions about who her fans are. And they're not the sort of like natural cross section with who I would think like the F1 fans are. So that's incredible. We have such different social media feeds because mine is all K-pop demon hunter. Like everyone is like how to do the purple roomie braid, which I actually think Helen is doing for her Halloween costume. I have an interesting nugget on this that I heard at another conference.

4:19I was at the Paley Summit, which is the big media summit that happened to be held in Silicon Valley this year. And one of the big topics was the fact that K-pop demon hunters couldn't lock in the toy deal in time. And so they're not going to get the toys for the holidays. And it's like the first time that both Hasbro and Mattel have co-collaborated on a toy together. because there was like such a high demand for it. Why did they not get it together in time? Did they just like not think it was going to be a hit and deprioritized or? I think so. Well, because of this pod, I watched finally. And it's amazing.

4:58I got really into it. So I get it. I get the hype. Like it was a very, very compelling storyline and like very catchy song. So if anyone else was a holdout like me, just give in. This is a rabbit hole you can afford to go down. Welcome to the dark side, Ashley. No, the light side. We're fighting demons. No, it was good. It was really good. Actually made me really happy that like children's content is like thriving. Good storytelling, really creative. I mean, that one is probably a little scary for some kids. There's a lot of like scary demons and a lot of like murder of those demons. But yeah, it was really well done.

5:39This is probably a sign of the times that my kids are very into learning the dance routines for the songs. And one, they're like very complicated. So I tried to watch a YouTube tutorial to take them through it, but quickly decided it was impossible. But there's this whole trend of like little kids doing the Saja boys like dance routine and posting it on YouTube. So people are, you know, the influencer generation is starting at age five. Well, I like your feeds better than mine because my feed right now, and I'm talking about Twitter, is all just like pro natalist stuff. Like, I don't know if you saw the Palmero Lucky, like, I wish I had married my wife at 16.

6:24And which was actually, it was very sweet. His sentiment was that there's something really special about people who loved you and bet on you before you were successful or wealthy. And I think that is a great takeaway. But then all of tech Twitter was like, I have 10 children and I wish I had 20. And it was intense. So guys, I'll trade feeds with either of you.

6:51I mean, this is a rabbit hole. We don't have to go down. but I do flip flop back and forth. A part of me is like, it would be so nice to have had children younger. My mom was actually 23 when she had me. So I feel like our age gap was very narrow and it's great to have young grandparents because my parents have so much energy to play with my kids. And, you know, I'm 10 years older than her when I had my first kid. And so I'm like, how active will I be if I have grandkids? But then the other part of me is like, then you miss out on your twenties in New York and doing stupid things and, Or maybe you don't, but I can't imagine like doing the same things with the baby at home.

7:28I think it's good. I do think I'm not like anti the pro-family, pro-natalist like stance over. Like I think it's good for people to see that there are multiple paths. And like if that's something you want to feel like it's socially acceptable to do that. And I will say when I was like in my early 20s or mid-20s working in tech, like no one my age had kids. And so if that had been something that like I was ready for and I wanted, I think it would have felt very hard to do. And so I do I do think there's a positive to just more modeling of different types of lifestyles and behaviors. It's more of the like this is what I did and now everyone should do it.

8:10And it's the it's the way to be happy. Like that stuff just drives me a little bit crazy. But overall, I do think it's like positive for you can be hard charging doing nine nine six in your 20s. You can be starting a big family in your 20s. I think it's hilarious when people want to do both. And there are maybe some gender implications there. But but yeah, I don't know. Like there are infinite ways to be happy. There are infinite ways to be miserable. Everyone gets to figure out what works for them. I love that. I love that. I have been having some like hilarious conversations offline while in San Francisco.

8:47And maybe it's just some of the crowd I've been hanging out with. But I think in New York, people are not as focused on like the bubble or is this a bubble? When does it pop? Nor are they as focused on like potential dystopian outcomes from AI and like AGI or artificial super intelligence. And it's funny because I've had so many conversations in San Francisco where in the same conversation, someone is simultaneously worried that we're in a bubble and that it'll burst. And also that like AGI is coming in the next two to three years and will be like massively disruptive to society and like send us into a dystopian spiral.

9:32And I just think those are two such funny fears to hold at the same time. time my takeaway is when we're talking about dystopian outcomes from ai and i know i know you guys had like the bubble talk last week so we don't need to spend too much time here i think people are processing it intellectually but not at a deeper level like no one wants to actually actually you know uh build their go bag and you know buy their plot of land with friends although maybe we should have a great chat um great chat compound ready just in case the new zealand bunker or it's going to be fully stocked with spam. We have it ready.

10:07I know, but we don't have a private plane, guys. I think we need a domestic option as well. Unless, Angela, you have a plane I don't know about. Are we still flying? I feel like there's probably some underwater route now to get us to New Zealand. Ashley, it's so funny. I was reading, I think this must have been on Twitter, or someone's spicy take that in SF, you're at the center of news. And, you know, if you live in the South Bay, you're like two to three months behind San Francisco. And if you live in New York, you're like six to nine months. And if you're in Europe, you're just like, you know, 20 years behind.

10:47But I wonder if some of it is just the timing, right? You know, SF was so enthusiastic about the day and it's just now reaching New York. And so in six months, the bubble bursting will have made its way to New York as well. Or I'm also curious too, if what percentage of your friends in New York are in tech versus what percentage of your friends are? Because like 100 % of all my friends are in tech. I don't know how or why I did this. We need technology. I don't have any friends who aren't investors or founders or like media. So I'm in the like broader bubble either way. I think it's more like San Francisco is like actually living in the future.

11:31I don't think New York is like months behind reality, but more people here are like more frontier oriented. And then just broadly speaking in New York, it's a little bit like industry transformation oriented or I don't know. It feels like a little bit more real world grounded. And so I think a little bit about bubbles. I definitely think about dystopian futures just because I read a lot of science fiction and dystopian fiction. And so I can't help but do that. But yeah, the conversations here have been so, so different, but interesting. And now we'll see what it's like in London next week. I'm sure like no one is thinking about this at all.

12:15Ashley is coming in with the breaking news. I was at an event yesterday and it was for a humanoid robotics company. So, of course, they made it as futuristic as possible. So you walk up to, you know, the check-in desk and it's two robots that are checking you in. And then you walk into the main reception area and at the bar, it's a human bartender and then a robot bartender who's making your drinks for you. So it definitely, you know, when you're here in Silicon Valley, you definitely feel like you're living in the future. I love those cafe robots at SFO. I don't know why people wait in line for like 20 minutes for coffee when.

12:59Sally, those were a social capital investment while I was there. And it was like a very, I mean, am I even allowed? It was like kind of a contentious investment. So every time I see those, I like crack up. It brings back some memories. Yeah, yeah. Well, you have Sally to thank for your carry from that investment then. She's single-handedly carrying that investment. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I don't know that I've gotten any, but when I do, Sally, I owe you a copy from a robot. Oh, yes. I will be collecting that one. I mean, we should have a whole separate conversation about, I'll post the video to our social of the robot bartender, but we should have a whole separate debate about humanoids.

13:39I think they're both cool and terrifying. And I was telling Sally, we were doing diligence in a company and we get to the office and the robot opened the door and I was like face to face with this robot and I totally freaked out and panicked and I grabbed my associate and I like threw her in front of me and I was like you go in first like you see that's what associates are for human sacrifices she also she recently left the firm so I don't know if the two are related but not not my finest moment as a that's really funny manager but don't let Angela's like sweet smile fool you she is my survival kicked in you know it was fight or flight I don't know if we want you on our dystopian uh escape compound Angela I feel like we'll be sacrificed in some way I I don't know I like Sally I've never wanted to get the robot coffee like I like I don't I like barista interact I I mean, I went to like, I'm staying in San Francisco.

14:40I've gone to the same coffee shop every morning for my latte. And now like four days in, they know my name. And I'm like, oh, that's just such a nice little like human interaction. Learn your name, facial recognition and say, Ashley, I know your order. Let me make it for you before you scan my eyeballs. It'll be like your HRV is currently low. You haven't been sleeping enough. Here's extra caffeine now, but check in in a year. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This is getting kind of Terminator-esque. Brave new world. Quickly went from coffee making robots to Terminators. But yeah, it's always interesting being here in Silicon Valley.

15:21It's a little bit of a bubble and sometimes it's nice to step outside and see what's happening, which maybe we'll head over to our main topic of the day. So Sally, you were recently in LA for LA Tech Week. Tell us what the vibes in LA were like. So, I mean, LA Tech Week was great, but I think like broader, there's so much happening in the media space. And because we flirt around this topic so much, it might be a good time for us to check in on the state of the business. The one thing that, you know, Ashley and I were just talking about was that like every media company wants to now be a tech company and every tech company and wants to have a media platform or a media arm.

16:07And we were having this conversation like what, 10 years ago when like, you know, Netflix was like Netflix, Amazon, Apple, everyone was moving into streaming and content. And so it's just like very funny to have a new version of this. Yeah. I think the big news right now in terms of this shift is we're in the traditional media sense. And again, like what is traditional media and what is new media? This is also a long going debate. But so Warner Media is up for sale. Warner Media has owns everything from CNN to HBO, but then there's also the cable business that's all declining. And so we're seeing a big shift in that.

16:48What I think is really interesting is who could be the buyer of this. And this will change, you know, who are the leaders in streaming, who are the leaders in content and distribution. The other side of the table is Paramount and David Zaslov, sorry, David Ellison, who is head of Paramount, who merged that with CBS and Viacom. So these are like old names that we like media people have obviously followed, but you know, I don't know how many people in the tech world have heard Viacom in a long time. So if CBS and Viacom now merged with Paramount, also merges with WarnerMedia. You know, that's going to be one of the most powerful media and content arms.

17:29What people also forget is that Larry Ellison was one of the big bidders of U.S. TikTok. And so merging the distribution of one of the most powerful distribution platforms of TikTok and the content, I think, will be really interesting to watch. So, like, I don't know. The Ellisons are like the new Murdochs that have come onto the scene. I want the TV series with Larry Ellison as the new paternal figure of the family. I don't remember how many seasons, but we'll add a new one, the Larry Ellison edition. I feel like he's one of the few people in tech who probably have a colorful enough storyline to make it work.

18:19Like he's such an interesting character. He's very into sailing, as I think most people know. He I think he owns America's Cup or is somehow affiliated with America's Cup. But he himself is a competitive sailor. I think he's almost died like twice competing in very intense races and owns like 98 percent of Lanai Island in Hawaii, I think. Right. And like it's revitalized that economy, controversial how he's done it. but he's married to someone 47 years younger than him like great great man with you know like people are too you know like yeah people have been married for way too long they're way too stable of a relationship you know like we need we need the tumultuous characters we need drama yes yes because the old media moguls of the prior generation they were real characters they real cowboys.

19:15I love the story of Sumner Redstone, who was the chairman of, I think he owned Viacom and CBS and Paramount, right? Like those were all his companies. Yes. And National Amusement. So there was a lot of drama between who wanted to own the Viacoms of the world, the CBSs of the world. And that's a whole another like saga there, but yes. But he famously, he was in a Boston hotel when a disgruntled employee of the hotel set fire to the hotel. And to escape, he hung by one hand from a window from the third floor for like 10 hours and was burned over 60 % of his body. He said he was burned down to his arteries on his legs.

19:57He was in surgery for like 50 hours and the doctors didn't think he was going to walk again. And then he came out of that very much alive and re-energized and just, you know, a total badass. We're going to work him into the storyline. He's coming into the show. That's incredible. And even people in, this is very old media, but the outdoor advertising, the clear channels of the world, that was just two people driving around in the middle of the night throwing stuff up and racing around. And I don't know. I think we need more colorful stories like that, like more media cowboys. Media is a funny, funny industry because it is the like media that we describe it as is a shrinking business, but it's a sexy business.

20:45Right. It's like showbiz. It's Hollywood. And so everybody always wants to have a piece of it in a way like the fact that like even Jeff Bezos or like these billionaires want to own newspapers. Penny off with Time Magazine. Time Magazine. Yeah. So I think it's always this like kind of tension between the two. And, you know, I'm always a strong defender of media. I think media is required for democracy. And whenever there is this like tension from like Silicon Valley being like, oh, traditional media, like, you know, there's these new media that's really disrupting. This is how media should be done.

21:24But in reality, there needs to be a lot of checks and balances for a lot of these things to work. So I'm constantly rooting for it. That I think also reminds me of another news that came out this morning, which is CNN finally rolled out their all access app. I think notable the fact that they're not calling it CNN plus or CNN, you know, whatever. It's just like, hey, this is the new new subscription business platform, which is clearly everything is moving away from advertising. And this is notable because CNN tried to release, roll this out three years ago. CNN, again, part of Warner Media. And then like it wasn't part of their strategy because when things are all operating under a cable bundle, they want to make sure that the bundle is more beneficial than the sum of than the part itself.

22:14And so I'm very interested to see how that rolls out because a lot of the focus is no longer on what's on the TV screen, but more on the app experience. And this is something I've talked about a long time where when you are a consumer of content on television, you want to also be able to capture the audience on a second or third screen because whatever action you take is going to be where the value is going to be in the future. There's a lot of our colleagues, I think all of us know, that are part of this rollout. So I'm excited. I'm excited to watch that. I think it's such an interesting point.

22:52You see ESPN going through this transition as well. And I think we've talked about it briefly on the pod. But, you know, live events and live sports in particular are sort of the last bastion of old media, right? Which is the most eyeballs, the most attention, the most ad dollars. But even for those formats, the way that people consume games has changed because of TikTok and Instagram. So they don't necessarily want to watch the whole game. They just want to watch the highlights. And more importantly, you're monetizing it differently because sports betting is such a big trend that's happening.

23:26And so you want to be able to make real time bets as the games are happening. And so that just necessitates different technology, different interfaces, different ways for consumers to interact with that media, which is both, you know, a threat and an opportunity for these companies to adapt. Yeah, totally. Like ESPN has become the like trading companion or betting companion to any of these apps. And like I think it's DraftKings and like even Robinhood have all tried to create their own content series. They haven't been able to take off. And so I think they're heeding to the like, hey, let's give that back to the people that know how to create the content.

24:08How do we coexist in a world where we can benefit off each other? So I think there might be some really interesting collaboration that happens between content and platforms that, like you said, Angela, where people can take action on this like betting. But it is interesting. It feels like the like old media landscape is going through a pretty structural shift right now. where there's a lot of consolidation that's happening. And a lot of that is probably driven by like the tech players like YouTube and TikTok, where they're driving users to this almost barbell type of attention span. Either you're like flipping through videos every 30 seconds or you're sitting down to watch the White Lotus for an hour and like everything else in the middle kind of gets squeezed.

24:55And so don't forget the four hour podcast interview. So somehow there's like an extra end to the barbell. It's like different stomach from the meals. They're like four hour podcasts. You have to go like really, like nobody has, everyone has ADD. Everyone has a short attention span. And so you either need like quick bites or you need to go really deep. Like you said, Ashley. So it's a really interesting trend. So anything that sits in the middle, it's hard to. There are some interesting stats that happened this year in terms of these rankings. So streaming overtook broadcasting cable for the first time this summer.

25:36Again, you're seeing that trend with even Comcast parent company, Versant. Comcast is spinning out their cable business and creating a new code so that the cable assets are on a different arm. um and then also uh youtube just overtook netflix in terms of watch time and and so and youtube and chill now it's it's it's youtube and chill youtube is the most powerful media platform in the world wow that's crazy all right guys we need to like work on our youtube subscriptions then yeah well i think the problem is a lot of the viral videos are like dance related and i won't speak for all of us, but my own ability to learn dances is really quite terrible.

26:21So there's going to be an AI version of me. Maybe that could be our shtick. Really, really bad dancing. Speak for yourselves, guys. I'm just kidding. All right, Sally, lead the way. Angela, one area that you and I have talked about over the few months is micro dramas, us, which is, I think, another category which we kind of briefly mentioned that's taken off in China, you know, for the last month, months or year, I think. But I'm curious what you think about that. And I think you and I have maybe opposing views on where this might be going. I just want to say, first of all, I really love the titles of all of these short dramas.

27:05Like, let me just read you a select few never divorce a secret billionaire heiress great title and great life advice um faded to my forbidden alpha a werewolf romance that that's like a little um edgy or the ones that you've bookmarked that you're watching pregnant are you revealing are you revealing what the algorithm thinks you're gonna like it's like when someone's like why am i getting porn in my feed and then you're like well yes this this this last one is definitely served to me by the algorithm. I hired a billionaire Manny like that, that, that combines all of my desires into one title.

27:44But no, Sally, it's, it's really interesting. I think we first talked about this probably in January on the podcast actually, and real short had actually been the number one app in the app store for a while overtaking even TikTok. When I checked earlier this week, it was sitting at number 13. So still popular, but definitely feels like that wave has slowed down a little bit. I think there was probably a lot of unmet need that these companies filled very quickly. And then now the question is, what keeps users engaged and how do you bring them back, which is kind of an old media platform question that they're facing.