Nara Smith: “I have a real issue with people trying to put women in boxes” Influence and identity

0:00Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:29Fearne Cotton: Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that explores the moments that make us who we are. I'm very excited because today I'm chatting to Nara Smith. I have this weird thing where I just go on autopilot. So something traumatic or big or whatever it is might happen. And then I just like, I don't even really acknowledge it. I'm just like, I just need to keep going and going and going. and then at some point I'll have a good cry about it and work through it. Like survival mode? Pretty much. Just compartmentalizing things to make it over the hard thing and then figure it out later.

1:07Fearne Cotton: Like me, you might have seen model and influencer Nara Smith pop up on your timeline over the last few years. She's known for her very intricate recipes and extremely glamorous outfits. Think Oreos from scratch meets haute couture. With over 12 million followers, she has created a real buzz online. And she joined me in the Happy Place studio on the UK leg of her very, very busy book tour. A cookbook inspired by her life growing up in Germany and really lovely memories of her grandmother's cooking. We spoke about so much in this chat, obviously food and cooking because I've made some recipes from her very beautiful book.

1:49Fearne Cotton: We talk about work ethic. We talk about family life and getting married really young and having four kids when she's only 24 years old and how I was definitely not as together as she currently is. we also talk about facing challenging moments in life you will have seen if you follow nara on instagram that over the last year she has been dealing with one of her children going through cancer treatment and she's very bravely opened up about that online obviously she didn't want to talk about it today which we massively respect but we talk about how she's coped in those really really tricky moments.

2:27Fearne Cotton: We also chat about good old-fashioned builder's tea and how many sugars Nara takes in her tea. You won't believe it.

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4:28Fearne Cotton: Nara, what joy to see you in real life. Thanks for having me. I've been imbibing your content for a long time. So to have you here in real life is a treat. Good tea? That was so loud. It's good tea. I've learned that an English breakfast... So what's the difference between an English breakfast and a builder's tea? Is it the same? Same. Same thing. Yeah, I think English breakfast is kind of, it's just a more sophisticated way of saying, can I have a cup of tea? Are you having milk and sugar in that tea? Yeah, I should have done five sugars, but I did three. Three? I just tasted that. I'm like, hmm, could have used more.

5:04Fearne Cotton: Five sugars. It's a big cup. Wow. You're going in strong with the sugar. I love it. I mean, why not? I like it very sweet. Also, hectic schedule so that energy is needed. this book tour you've been you've done the states you've done the uk then we're doing germany and then we're done it's sad though because i feel like there was such a big lead up to it and all these stops and all these places and all these flights and then now it's done almost has it been what you thought it would be yeah i i didn't really go into it with a lot of thought i guess it was just like okay let's get there but seeing people in real life is just so it's so different than when you're just posting.

5:47Yeah. And hearing their stories and seeing their energy and just seeing the sheer amount of people that show up for you is quite crazy.

5:54Fearne Cotton: I guess this is the first proper time you're experiencing your fans, your followers in real life because there is such a detachment when you're posting online. It's like, you know, you can read comments and you can roughly see how many people are looking at your content, but meeting people, different story. So different. And especially just, I don't know, people buying tickets and coming to see you and there were people that took flights people that took six hour car rides with infants i'm like you guys thank you so lovely so lovely it's so great i mean let's talk about your beautiful book first of all this front cover is fucking cool isn't it so fun it's just the best front cover it is really good i wanted it to live both on in your kitchen but also on a coffee table oh it's coffee table right oh for sure it's It's fun.

6:44I love it.

6:45Fearne Cotton: Also, I, the other day, I'm going to show you this. Me and my daughter made the Oreos. No way. They were so easy. I was thinking this is going to be. No. I said to my daughter, pick whatever you want. What do you want to make? Yeah. And she was like, the Oreos. I was like, oh, crying out loud. Those are fabulous. They were easy. Did you like them? Oh, my God. They were gorgeous. I mean, they lasted about two days. We ate them immediately. Yeah. I love that they lasted two days. Yeah, yeah. In my house, they're gone like the same day. I mean, it was just me and my daughter, so it would have been quite a lot of work.

7:15Fearne Cotton: And you guys did a lot of them, yeah. We did a whole batch. But the recipes are so great. They really are, and they work. I feel like a lot of the times when I buy cookbooks or when someone tells me about them buying a cookbook, they're always like, the recipes didn't work. Yeah. And I'm like, I tested them over and over again. They better work. I think you could be a pretty bad little cook and make anything out of here. I love that. That was kind of my intention. I wanted, because I'm a home cook. I never went to culinary school. I didn't get training. And I started cooking around the same time I started posting on TikTok.

7:48So I haven't been doing it for years and years. So I wanted this book to really feel fun, whimsical, approachable, beginner friendly. But then if you want to spend a little bit more time in the kitchen, you can do that as well. I wanted it to feel like all these aspects of my life in a hardcover.

8:04Fearne Cotton: Yeah, if you want to make your own cinnamon cereal. You can. You probably need to be a bit more advanced, but crack on. A smidge. A smidge. But if I can do it, you can do it. That's what my mentor. Yeah. I feel like you make it all look so easy online. Let's talk about the whole, the origins of how you've ended up with this brilliant book. You grew up in Germany. Yes, I did. I grew up in Germany, lived there until I was 18, spent a lot of time in London, actually, weirdly enough, for work. And then I moved to the States when I was 18, which was seven years ago now. And you moved for love. I did.

8:41my husband's American and he could never imagine living in Europe and I get it I get it even though I do I he's missing out he's missing out but then we moved I moved to LA because he was living in LA at the time and then we lived there for about three-ish years moved to Texas for a couple years and then ended up on the east coast in Connecticut where we're at now yeah and I love your love story

9:03Fearne Cotton: you met online and you spoke the first phone call you had was seven seven hours long what did you talk about? You know what? That phone call, we talked about anything and everything from deep topics like religion and family and background and history and family trauma to what shoes are you wearing and what's your favorite food? Literally anything. And ever since that day, we never spend a day without talking. So every day after that, we were on the phone. That's so lovely. And how did that phone call even end after seven hours? Is it like, you hang up no you yeah you buy no buy again I was like this sun's coming up and I have a driving lesson in an hour I need to go so you just clicked you knew this is my person yeah we did immediately and then two-ish weeks after that I was in Milan walking a fashion show and I told him like I'm gonna be a little MIA time zones and I'm gonna be working and he was like huh that's interesting because I'm gonna be in Milan too and I was like what are you there for and he was like, I'm watching this Tommy Hilfiger show.

10:05And I'm like, oh, I'm walking that show. So that's the first time we met. Truly, that's the first time. And that was the only show I'd walked that season. So it was truly fate. And then when you met face to face, was it fireworks? Yeah. And then that same day we had our first date after the show and he asked me to be his girlfriend and told me he loved me same day. But I told him when he asked me, I was like, I just, I need you to think about this for a sec because I don't want to date. I don't like if you ask me to be your girlfriend, we're going to get married. Right. And he was like, yep, same page.

10:39What? Yeah.

10:40Fearne Cotton: Wow. It was good. And you had that instinct at a young age as well. You were what, 18? I was 18, yeah. Wow. And then how long after that did you move to the States? So I went to Australia for work two months after that. He came to visit me out there. And then I think - That's not a short haul flight. No, it was a 10 hour flight for him. Okay, this is love immediately. Yeah. So he went out and visited me. And then that trip, we actually looked at engagement rings. Crazy. And then a month after that, he met my parents for the first time for Christmas. So that was three months after he asked me and then asked my dad whether he could marry me.

11:15Then we got engaged that same month, got married two months later, and then had our first baby nine months later. Now, six years later, we have four kids. Crazy.

11:25Fearne Cotton: What a story. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. That's what I believe in. What a love story. Thank you. It's so beautiful. I mean, I'm like nearly double your age, but I look back at me in my early 20s. Yeah, what were you like? A fucking car crush, mate. I was, I was, I had a good job. I was doing this and I was doing it relatively well, but I was turning up to work insanely hungover. I do get that. My breakfast would be a cigarette and a bag of Haribo. I was disgusting. I was, I was gross. I'd wear the same clothes because I'd not been home. Like, not cool. Here you are as this unbelievably together, sophisticated person with a family of your four children and you're married.

12:06Fearne Cotton: What do you think's enabled you to get to that level of maturity and togetherness at such a young age? I honestly think it's because I started working so early. I got scouted by a modeling agency when I was 14 and basically started working when I was 14. So the clubs and the drinking and the dating and the traveling and the late nights, all of that happened when I was a teen. to where when I was 18, I'm like, I'm done going to clubs. I'm done dating. I'm done drinking. I'm done doing all of these things because it was just too much. And then when I was 18, I'm like, I'm ready to start a life now and really crack on with my work and be successful at it.

12:45Wow.

12:46Fearne Cotton: I think there's something also just like in your DNA because I started work at 15. Wait, what? I started doing this at 15. Not this podcast, but like telly. wow but I didn't grow out of it you know what that's a personality thing maybe yeah I mean I did eventually when I had kids yeah yeah I was like okay we're done but I was like 30 well that's still young that's still young yeah sure I'm just impressed I just think what you've done and achieved and how you've built this not only business but your family life is exceptional at such a young age it's amazing I always wanted to be I mean my dad had us when he was 45 and I remember him just saying to us when we were older he was like I wish I would have had you guys a little earlier so that I would have had more energy and more to give and I don't know maybe that resonated with me on some level because that was my mentality then and I'm like when I'm 40 my kids will be almost out the house yeah so it's great and then I have another whole second wind second wind and I won't be too old to where I feel like I just want to like maybe I'll go party when I'm 40 oh you will I'm 45 and I'm like I'm back out I'm like having loads of fun it's so great yeah it's never too late no it isn't never too late so you moved to the states I did you start your family yeah and then it was during lockdown that you were like I really want to get cooking and this was also due to an autoimmune disease that you really did your homework.

14:20Fearne Cotton: Mate, I'm not turning up without knowing everything about you that I possibly can. That's very much my job. I love that. So yeah, I moved to the States and then lockdown happened and I was a stay-at-home mom at first because work visa and all of those things, it just made the most sense for me to be at home with the kids and I actually quite enjoyed it. But then during lockdown, I'm like, get me out. I need something, but I didn't quite act on it because there was so much going on and the kids were so young. And then when I had my second, I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and my eczema was so bad, which is also where the bob came from.

14:56A lot of people think I just didn't want to wear my curly hair. It was because my scalp was literally so bad and my hair was falling out in clumps to where doing it just felt like torture. So the bob was like a good place to land. But then I got diagnosed with my autoimmune COVID and then I I grew up in the fashion industry. So fashion has always been a huge part of my life and what I like doing. So when I was making myself food, my agent at the time, she was like, you should just get on TikTok. And I'm like, get on TikTok, a dancing platform. I'm not doing that. Oh, that's when TikTok was very like, the like little dances.

15:34Yes. Yeah, exactly. My stepdaughter was doing all that back in the day. Yeah. So, you know, and I was like, I, that would be a crazy digital footprint. So I never did that. But then it kind of evolved into people sharing more videos that were just lifestyle content. And I was like, oh, I think I can get behind that. And then she was like, you should just post. I'm like, but what do I post? And she was like, just post you making food, meal prepping, whatever you do usually. And then I kind of started doing that. I started off very simple with like a salad because I'm like, people can't come at me for a salad.

16:08And then I was wearing more relaxed outfits because I didn't quite, I felt, I don't know. I was just not really thinking about it. And then I was like, but I have all these cute dresses in my closet that I don't wear out. So maybe I just wear them at home. And my daughter loved it. I loved it. It was just a fun thing. And then I started making things from scratch because I had to because that was the only way for me to kind of manage my autoimmune. And that helped? It did. It really did. Did it make it go away fully? No. But it definitely helped it being less inflamed. And so I started cooking things from scratch, wearing the outfits because I had no place to wear them from, too.

16:47And then the voice came about because I was putting my baby down. And you know, you're not going to speak loud and wake up your baby. God, no. I'm like, if anyone was in my house and my mom was over, don't utter a word. No. Shut it. Do not close the door. That nap is essential. It's essential. So I was putting them down, but then I was also like, oh, shit, it's like posting time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to get this video up. So I spoke like quiet, a little louder, a little louder, and then landed on the voice. Oh, I love your quiet voice. Yeah. It makes me feel all like tingling when you do it.

17:21Isn't it nice?

17:21Fearne Cotton: Oh, it's so lovely. I really enjoy it. And a lot of people do. They're like, oh, we put your videos on to go to bed. And some husbands are like, you're the first thing I hear in the morning when they meet me. I'm like, is that good? How do I take that? Yeah. I don't know. And at what point did you think, oh, like, because there is a whole style to your videos. And we all know with algorithms and how the online world works that if there is repetition, people really like that. People are like, oh, it's because I know that person. It's recognizable. And you have a very distinct way of like even how you're placing the bowls down and you're mixing things.

17:56Fearne Cotton: It's all very curated. At what point did you think, oh, this is working. People like this. I don't know whether I ever got to that point. I think it was more so me really liking shooting my content and having fun with it and finding purpose almost. Because when you're, at least for me, I'm only going to speak for myself ever. But when I was a stay-at-home mom, I felt like my purpose was my kids because that's all you did all day long. And you were cooking and cleaning and kids and minding everyone else but you to where that felt like a creative outlet to where I could do everything I loved from home.

18:30Yes. So I guess when it gained traction and people started watching the videos, I'm like, oh, this is fun. People get it. Like we can all just have a good time. And then I just kept doing it, I guess. And I am very specific growing up in fashion. You kind of you do shoots and you know your angles. You know what looks good and what doesn't, how to pose, how to position your body. So I think that kind of led me to that very, I guess, poised. Yeah. It's considered. Yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of how that came about. But I am very particular about angles, and that's why I self-shoot everything. Like, I come up with the recipe, the outfit, hair and makeup.

19:09I set up my tripod and my little phone and get all the angles, and then when the kids go to bed, I edit that video and get it up the next day.

19:15Fearne Cotton: I love it. By the way, you can't possibly have a bad angle. It's humanly impossible. There's no way. I can. Wait, I just realized it matches perfect. Do you see that? Oh, the mug and the jumper. Isn't that great? This is like one of your videos. No. This is it. See? I love it. If you were shooting this video, that's the cup you would have chosen. And the curtain behind you matches your glass. We know what we're doing. You guys really do know. We do. We tried.

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20:17Fearne Cotton: best one yet behind every episode there's research email spreadsheets and our shared google doc the headline hammer with google workspace with gemini google's ai is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. The holidays are busy enough without worrying about missed calls or customers.

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22:11Fearne Cotton: I love that... I guess I'm frustrated that you have to point out that you making this content is an outlet for you because the blurred lines are people are going, oh all this woman does is cook for her family and quite clearly you are now making money out of this and you've made a business out of it and seemingly you're cultivating a whole brand out of you doing something that you love I think what people forget is I've been working ever since I've been 14 I never really stopped apart from when my work visa had to clear and I don't know I feel like when when you have hobbies that are I guess more domestic it creates conversation that doesn't need to happen yeah um and it's just an odd thing I don't I don't quite understand because I always I mean from the get-go I would start my videos with this is a love language of mine it's a hobby this is not something that's expected of me and I think there's something beautiful about loving your home and loving like I'm a homebody I love my home I love my kids I love being a mom I love being a wife I love taking care of people around me through food but equally I also love getting on a plane and getting out of there and being in huge boardrooms with executives running my business working very long hours being on the phone all day every day taking zoom meetings and then going back home and also supposedly when you're doing those videos your husband lucky's looking after your four kids yes to right and he does the dishes after yeah to fucking right I love that I know.

23:42It is truly teamwork.

23:44Fearne Cotton: I guess because I've listened to a bunch of interviews you've done on this book tour. You have. Yeah. And I think you've articulated yourself so well in terms of. Not that you should have to defend. Like my point is feminine. True feminism is letting women do exactly what they want to do. And that's where I feel like I really struggle with where people draw conclusions from because they scream feminist from the rooftops. They're like, we're just, we want women to advance. Okay, let them then. I believe that we should support women and uplift women in whatever they choose to do, whether that is being at home, which is an insane job to do, minding your kids.

24:22That is one of the hardest jobs to ever do. And talking down on that, I kind of get protective over women that do that. Me too. Because that's like, it's almost degrading. What do you mean? You're raising the next generation selflessly, working 12-hour days. Yes. raising your children. I couldn't do that.

24:41Fearne Cotton: This is my big problem with the term trad wife, which I know is a contentious point. But the way that we use it or we hear it used in a cultural context is in a derogatory way. It's never used in a positive way, trad wife. And the problem we've got with that is that we'll have women listening to this now who have no choice but to be a stay at home mum because financially having childcare, child support. It's expensive. Yeah, someone coming in a nanny is impossible for them. So they'll make that era of their kids' lives all about them. And it might not be out of choice. Even if it is out of choice, it's no one's business for a start.

25:20Fearne Cotton: But the issue I've got is all of that free labor that we do. I'm a working mom, but I still do all of the cleaning and the dishwashers and the food. I do all of it. So a job, all of that free work that we do, not only do we have to do it, we now have to feel ashamed because it's a terrible thing. That to me is not okay. So I think the way that we're throwing about trad wife in this derogatory way is actually really dangerous and makes women who have no choice, most women, feel even shittier about themselves. The fact that they've got to do all the bloody laundry and then feel like, oh my God, I'm just doing the worst possible menial jobs here.

25:59Fearne Cotton: And it's like you just said, raising kids is really important. You're raising the next generation. I agree. Like that's what a privilege that is if you choose that. It's not a one thing or another conversation. It's a complex chat. Women were so multifaceted and that's why I have a real issue with people trying to put women in boxes where it's like, oh, she's a trad wife. She's a working mom. She's a business. Like, what if all those things can coexist? Or why don't we not put labels on things? Because those labels are very constrictive to whatever you think a woman should be. It makes no sense to me.

26:38It doesn't. And it never made sense to me from the get-go. No. So I don't know. I believe feminism is all about empowering women and making them do whatever they want to do. And if you choose to stay at home with your kids or your husband or whatever it may be that you choose for yourself and you do it out of your free will and you enjoy it, I'm going to support that. Too right. That is feminism.

27:01Fearne Cotton: It's supporting all women in whatever they want to do. And if you want to go work and put in 12 hour days and come home to your kids on the weekend, absolutely. If that's what you need to do and you want to do, I will support that as well. it's a really heated issue but one that I think you're putting some really good content out there and some really good conversation about this subject matter because we need to challenge it I think we do I I don't know I just think if we all just took a second to support each other instead of tearing each other down all the time I think it would be a better place yeah and the internet would be a better place oh my god it would be I mean that is a whole other bag of onions, you know, you've had this amazing ascent where things, the momentum is just building and building.

27:45Fearne Cotton: And obviously there's amazing opportunities that come with that, but equally there is a lot of noise and a lot of feedback. How, how do you deal with it or mitigate it? What's your coping technique? I mean, in the beginning it was very loud and I would think about it all the time and read the comments and be like, that's not true. That's not true. What do I do? How do I correct it? And then the more I sat with it and the more I did try to correct to in the past, I'd be like, I don't think these people want to hear me anyways, because the narrative that they're spinning is because they're lacking something or they have a certain perspective or they have a certain narrative that they're living or they believe in that they then project onto me.

28:21So it's not about me at all. No. Because any sane person would just swipe or block me or whatever it is. If they didn't want to see my content, they wouldn't leave hateful comments over and over and over again. So to me, I just kind of disregarded that. And now I spend less time on social media and I have two phones, not right now, but usually I have two phones and I have social on one and then my life on the other and the other one is important. So if anyone that has access to my life texts me about something or has an opinion on something, I'm going to listen to that. But the other phone, the social phone, I couldn't care less about.

28:58But I do really enjoy engaging with my audience and the positivity. And it's so nice to me finding connection through through the digital medium that is my phone but the negativity I don't really know I mean I don't

29:13Fearne Cotton: think you need to none of us do I mean we all get it anyone who's online doesn't have to be someone in the public eye we all get shit from someone and it could be anyone yeah it's finding your boundaries and your barriers and going right I will listen to this group of people but this I don't need to take care of and and and this is an interesting point as well because of course now social media is so prevalent and everyone has access to it and we have access to people that we wouldn't have 50 years ago you know movie stars or movie stars over here pop stars or pop stars over here and they were very unattainable and untouchable whereas now we kind of want something from people you must tell us the absolute truth about your life and actually that's not the case you have autonomy to go i'll show you this bit but this bit's off limits and this is what i want to and this is what I'm willing to put into my work life.

30:02Fearne Cotton: At what point did you start to distinguish those parts of your life and go, this is off limits? I think it started when I grew very rapidly on TikTok. It just felt, I was kind of more open about what I was posting and then I kind of realized, oh, people are dissecting this and they're taking this in the wrong way and that and they're spinning their own narratives that aren't even true based off what I'm showing them. And it just felt very invasive. And then also gaining that much popularity, I kind of realized that my kids were just off limits. Like I didn't want their faces out there. I didn't want videos of them out there.

30:40And I made the conscious decision to not show their faces on the internet anymore. And now I kind of play it by ear and kind of see how I feel about a certain situation. But I am a very private person. And it feels like people know a lot about me, but they don't, if that makes sense. Like there's a balance to me of what I share because I do want people to be able to relate to me and I want to share my struggles to maybe help someone else feel a little less lonely. Like I do think that the internet is a beautiful place to seek connection and kind of understand each other. But then there are certain things that I'm like, I don't think that would really be helpful for me and my mental health or my family to share.

31:22Fearne Cotton: Yeah, of course. I mean, nobody really knows what happens behind closed doors with anyone. You know, we could all, I could be sat here or I could have done radio, whatever, and then go home and have a good old cry about something. We don't need to share everything. There are bits of us that need to remain completely isolated in terms of, you know, it's just an inward thing. Because also if you share it, it's going to live on the internet forever. It will never leave the internet. And I think that's a decision that sometimes I watch other people in the public. I share so much about their life and I'm like, I know where you live.

31:56I know what you do. I know where you get your takeout. I know what boyfriend did what to you. And I'm like, that is even just from a security standpoint, it is a little. Yeah. Every time someone overshares, I'm like, yeah, I know too much about you and I don't have any ill intent. I'm just going to keep scrolling. But what about someone else that has ill intentions? Yeah, I mean, do you have that paranoia?

32:18Fearne Cotton: I mean, I think you just do in the public eye, you know, slightly look over your shoulder the whole time. You do. It's not a nice feeling. You do, but I feel pretty secure in what I share and I try my best to be as private as I can. But in the beginning, yeah, I was worried about it. But now I just go about things different. Like I'll use a different name when I order food. I'll use a different name when I check into a hotel. I'll do certain things because of bad experiences I've had like I had a delivery at the house and I just had my normal name because I mean numbers on a screen sometimes don't feel tangible or real to me so I just forget I guess and then I had my name on the order and this girl drove past the house realized it was me looped around got all her friends and they pulled up to my house and I was like this is just not it I would get fan letters in the mail in my letterbox I would have girls standing outside of my house and it made me feel not for myself but for my kids I just never wanted there to be any instant that I could have avoided yeah I mean do you ever think oh god what have I started I wish I just had like a private no relaxed life no because I feel like I have a real opportunity to bring people comfort make them feel seen make them learn stuff make them feel empowered make them feel confident make them look at the world in a more happy whimsical way so I do think that this was my purpose in one way or another and I'm very grateful for what I've built and everything that is coming my way so I would never change that for the world I just put boundaries and parameters up now that will keep me and my kids safe but apart from that I'm having a blast good I'm so glad it's so fun you are having just this sort of like meteoric rise and so much excitement comes with that but of course the last couple of years have not been without challenges no what helps you get through difficult periods of life I don't quite know because I have this weird thing where I just go on autopilot so something traumatic or big or whatever it is might happen and then I just like I don't even really acknowledge it I'm just like I just need to keep going and going and going and then at some point I'll have a good cry about it and work through it but like survival mode pretty much just compartmentalizing things to make it over the hard thing and then figure it out later yeah but I do I love reading a good book I love talking to people I love talking to my family my husband um I got a therapist good me too it's quite fun best thing ever I'm going after this I love that every Wednesday I wouldn't miss it right even just to chat and have someone on the outside that has no idea what's going on and you can just talk to them and they'll have a different perspective um probably that journaling yeah writing stuff down because a lot of the times you'll look back and be like wow i really overcame that or i really found a way to work that out or wow i can't believe that this happened i didn't even remember it because i worked through it so it really is nice what do you think therapy's given you?

35:26Tools. I feel like I've built this little toolkit of things I could do when I feel anxious or stressed or have a hard time or to just work through things a little better than I probably would. Learned how to communicate better. I always thought I was really good at communicating until I got married. And I was like, oh, compromise. What's that?

35:48Fearne Cotton: So I've learned a lot. Yes. It's the key to everything, communicating. Yes. Would you say you were naturally before that someone that would rather skirt around the edges of a conversation no no you're quite is that the dramatic thing you're just like i'm gonna say the thing a little too direct okay i like that i give very weird compliments you give weird compliments yeah give us an example of that like my sister-in-law she's the most ethereal looking person right to me she looks like an alien in the best way like a beautiful alien like otherworldly and i was like your sister-in-law an alien yeah right and i was like to me that's a really good compliment but then my husband was like people might take that the wrong way it depends what image is conjured when you say when i say it i think et oh yeah no i think like glowy skin ethereal like floating down to earth wearing a silver cat suit yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i got it but i am quite direct i'll kind of tell it how it is and i think as a german that's kind of how you do it it's like very dry no small talk like you just get straight to the point whereas americans love a little bit of fluff and you need to smooth and like you're gonna say love you honey and you've never met them like yeah i worked out there for a bit and i was like what is this bullshit but it's hard as a european for me because you don't get the honest answer i want that's why i tell everyone i don't care whether it's no i don't care whether it's yes i don't care any way i just want you to tell me the truth and give me the honest answer yeah how are you getting on in the states with with your germanic vibes i i you know i found that i didn't live out there for long but i was like why will no one just tell me the answer and it is it's all the fluff and the oh my god everyone has said they loved me today i don't think they actually do but i'm feeling quite good about myself but actually is this real no it's not real curiosity about this it's not real no i've learned it's not real no because then they're like i don't know you meet the same person again that told you they loved you three weeks prior and they were like huh nice to meet you yes what do you mean nice to meet you outrageous i don't know it's it's interesting i feel like i naturally attract european people in my life have you made good friends out there in the states now no oh oh i'm so sorry i'm here's the thing though i'm a homebody and a workaholic right so it's not even that i can't or i won't it's just i do not have the bandwidth or time to put into having dinner dates or to chat to you or get on a facetime like i i naturally gravitate towards friends that also have busy careers so i guess i have a lot of pen pals that are now my best friends yeah and we see each other when we're in the same city like I met a friend of mine she was in London actually at the same time as I was so we were able to hang out but yeah I just my life is too busy you've got four kids all your kids are under six right yeah six and under so six four two and one sorry of course you're not going out with your mates and then I work like if you were to see my schedule it's like every day there's something I can imagine it's nuts I mean I remember I've only got two kids but I remember when they were both under six or probably even under 10 yeah You're just so overwhelmed.

39:10Fearne Cotton: Yeah, and they have activities as well during the weeks. You're a taxi driver. It's absolutely nonstop. And I find it, I'm someone that needs to be in absolute solitude regularly. I have to be on my own. So how are you finding that time? I don't. No. But any minute I get, which is usually on a plane, I just take it. Yeah. and the thing is also I am a work like work is my life and I love it so much to where I'm on the phone or answering emails or editing content or whatever it may be until late at night I need to get a little better at that because I wake up I'm like yeah too much blue light but it's hard I think when the kids are little too as a mom and I don't think it's the same for dads you are constantly touched it's like you're being pulled out I'm so overstimulated at the end of the day overstimulation What do you do in those moments of like, I am so overwhelmed, I can't cope?

40:02I take a deep breath. I've learned that if you get really anxious or stressed, like you're blocking oxygen to the brain because you're not breathing. So I forget that. Same. Yeah. I take deep breaths and then I tell myself that this moment is going to pass. Yeah. And also, I've really learned through being a parent to be patient and realize that we're all on this earth doing this for the first time. Yes. I'm a parent for the first time. My kids are kids for the first time and they have no concept of anything truly because they're so young. They have no concept of time. They have no concept of what their day looks like.

40:41They don't even know what day of the week is. So I think if I just sit and shift my perspective, it allows me to be really compassionate and loving and kind of let go of that anxiety and stress. Like, you know, when you're trying to get them out the door and they're like faffing around with their laces and no one wants to wear their jacket. And this person needs to go to the bathroom and this person needs a water bottle. And you're just like stressed to get out because you have somewhere to be. But then I sit down and I realize like they have no idea. They don't know what time it is. They don't even know where we're going.

41:10no and it allows me to just like come back and ground myself it's a sensible way of looking at

41:15Fearne Cotton: it because I think all of us parents I think I'm going to chuck us all into this one yeah what is at some point like lose our shit and go oh I'm a terrible person I'm a terrible parent yeah yeah because it's so hard it can be a lot yeah it's so hard and I think people are often reluctant to say oh my god it is like I've had a day where it's been really shit and really hard and and that's okay as well yes i agree i think it's okay to have bad days yeah not every day needs to be perfect no but i think it's also you have so much more access to other people's lives through all the online content and i think what people sometimes forget is it's curated regardless even the moms that do like the messy like imperfect parenting type content they still sit down and edit that video they still sit down and figure out whether they want to post that or not and i think we hold ourselves to standards that we see other people portray even though that's not even their reality so we're all living in this like warped sense of reality because of the content that we consume and that kind of transforms into this pressure that we put upon ourselves to be perfect because we saw susan post a perfect video online so when you're doing your videos and it is all neat and you're looking absolutely gorgeous making skittles or whatever nuts thing that you're making on that day please tell me one of your kids is like shitting on the floor in the corner like there's some there's some stuff going on I've never done that okay luckily good I don't even know what I would do then oh I've had it happen for sure I mean not recently I draw the line that's where I would draw the line I'm like uh um I mean yeah they have meltdowns they're clutching my feet sometimes they're like mom mom we need a snack I'm like do you not see I'm in the middle of making skittles give me another four hours four hours your snack will be ready okay no they i mean it's loud and i think maybe that's also why voiceovers work well for me because if there's no sound there's no sound if i had the organic sound on crazy please post one you'd have kids screaming crying fighting give me that toy yes yeah i want that so that's the reality.

43:26Fearne Cotton: I love it. But it's the same for all of us. We're all just, we're making up as we go along and we're trying our best. We're trying our best. I always believe if you're trying your best and you have to be honest with yourself and the people around you, because when I ask, me and my husband have this thing where we ask like each other, we're like, did you actually try your best today? And you need to give an honest answer because sometimes you're like, yeah, I did. But then did you really and if your answer is no that's completely fine try harder but if you genuinely tried your hardest and the outcome wasn't the way that you wanted it to be you still did your best and that deserves an a for effort and you can learn from whatever went wrong and try your best tomorrow and that will probably look a little different because you've learned your lesson sometimes your best is like very average my best is very average and your best is different sometimes it's 100 % sometimes your best is 40 sometimes your best is 20 as long as you give your best for what you can in that moment that's what matters to me yeah and also sometimes amazing things come from horrendously shit show days where just everything's gone a bit wrong and you actually go do you know what I've learned something about myself there or about someone else yeah and there's a gift in it anyway I learn things all the time even I think that's why sometimes I am quite grateful for things going not the way that I want them to go because I learn oh I like this oh I actually didn't like that I I think I should go about this a different way it really is humbling and eye-opening you seem like an incredibly from what I've read and seen online and interviews I've heard you do incredibly I want to say naturally resilient like you know how to move through difficult situations you know how to remain focused and strong in the face of adversity is that from your parents or where do you think that's from probably that yeah I think Like, I mean, my dad's quite German.

45:17So like emotions were never really part of his toolkit. But he showed love in so many other ways. And then my mom is the opposite where she's very emotional and very reactive. And if it's a joyous day, it's the best day. If she's sad, you could tell that as well. So I think it was kind of having the balance of the both extremes in a good way, though, that really helped me kind of find my middle ground to where I feel like I can be very kind and compassionate but then I can also kind of just lock in and do what I need to do and it's come in really handy and then I can unpack things later with my therapist or by myself through journaling yeah yeah it's a good thing I think it's interesting when you look at

46:03Fearne Cotton: your parents and you can see what traits you've got yeah things you maybe and then you can also So pluck from each. You can be like, oh, I love how my mom went about this. I love how my dad just did this. So I think that's really helpful. And then I've learned life will always be hard in whatever situation. So I've always, when I was younger, I used to wait and be like, oh, it's really crap because this big thing happened, but it's going to get better. Or I don't know. I've always waited for it to get better. The only way it's up. Yeah. But the more I've lived life, I'm always like, there is always going to be something, whether that's big or small or medium size, whatever it may be, and waiting for like the perfect situation.

46:44There's never going to be a perfect situation. There's always going to be something that happens. So you kind of need to learn how to ground yourself and be a constant, regardless of what happens around you, because life will always keep moving on around you. And it's about how you approach it.

46:59Fearne Cotton: Yeah, we can't mitigate challenges in life. It's absolutely impossible. And that's why I'm very interested. I mean, the title of our whole thing, Happy Place, is quite a loaded concept because I don't believe there is some sort of happy future where you've ticked off all the things you're meant to do and then you get to feel happiness. No, because then you always want something else. Of course you do. You always want something else. But also, you know, we can't help life's curveballs come our way. And that's when we have to really dig deep and go, right, how am I going to get through this? And actually, sometimes I'll go, oh, my God, I've got this really challenging week at work.

47:31Fearne Cotton: And I've got like a lot of like juggling with the kids. how's it all going to work and I'm sort of dreading it and I think when I get to Saturday everything's going to be amazing and I'll get to Saturday and then I'm in a shit mood for some reason or something happens out of my control or you have to take your kids to freaking martial arts in the morning yeah exactly always martial arts

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49:31Fearne Cotton: someone else that you talk about in the book and she seems to be a real key catalyst in this whole journey for you is your grandma nan what terminology was your grandma yeah tell us about your grandma i she died when i was probably in elementary school don't quote me on timelines everything's kind of blurred together but i didn't quite realize how impactful she was on how I viewed things and how I viewed cooking and ingredients and all of that. And then when I started writing the book, she just like, it felt almost like journaling, right? It all just like comes up and you don't quite realize where it came from.

50:07And unintentionally, I wrote her a little love letter, I guess, within the book. I didn't quite realize that that was what it is. It's not your mom or your dad's mom? My dad's mom. She was the only grandparent I ever met because his dad passed and then my mom's parents passed before I was born. so she was the only grandparent that I had and she taught me so much she taught me how to read how to play the piano cooking and it just I don't know she was just the best I mean that must be so

50:35Fearne Cotton: special for your dad to see this book that's you know almost dedicated to her I need to talk to him about it because I haven't what yeah you're going to Germany today right he's actually been at my house for a month has he said i like your book no right he said well done well done he's very german right my dad's an act of service type guy right if he'll not he'll not tell me he loves me but then if he knows he'll build you a shed i love strawberries he will go buy the palette right he will go to every grocery store to find them i like that like he's that type of person or he'll make sure that like I have a hot water bottle in my bed yes so I'm not cold he's that type of that's his love language yeah and it's so special to me because that's kind of how I like receiving love as well like acts of service because I feel like there's so much outpour for me that it's nice when someone takes care of me and that's my dad god yeah but also just as a mom of four yeah it's so rare that anyone's like are you are you okay what can I do for you okay it's always I was like, what do the kids need?

51:39Fearne Cotton: Yeah. And when you go back to Germany, is there one thing that you have to eat whilst you're there? Yeah. There's this kebab shop at the end of the road. I wasn't expecting that. Really? No. Carry on. We used to have it every Friday after swim class. It was like a tradition growing up. And then it just stuck even after swim class. And we had it every Friday. I'd get this thing called lachmacun. It's like a German, not a German, a Turkish pizza thing. and then they'd put the meat in with the lettuce and the cabbage and the onions and the yogurt sauce and the chili sauce. In a pizza? It's like a flatbread looking thing.

52:13Oh right wow. Yeah or in Germany it's called a döner. How do you guys call is it a döner here? A donna kebab. Yes you

52:20Fearne Cotton: just pronounce it different. Yes yours sounds way classier. Yeah. Donna kebab. But it's gotten really expensive. I really. I went back to Germany I'm like this used to be 3 3.90 and now it's 8 eight euros yeah inflation it's crazy oh it's even hit kebabs it has yeah it's terrible your local little shop nightmare it's really are you gonna get one today when you get there yeah i will actually yeah good yeah i do it every time it's the first thing i do when my dad picks me up from the airport there you go again yeah it's like he stops so we can get it and then he keeps driving and he knows i don't even have to say anything no he gets it he gets it i love that yeah before we wrap up and you wing your way back to your family i've got two questions for you the first one is music based because we're making a playlist full of songs that make you feel great what would you put on there

53:14etta james oh now we're talking it's very good jazz of any sort honestly i will i am not picky with my jazz give it all yeah ray oh ray um anything ray is really good should we put one

53:31Fearne Cotton: ray on there one etta james yeah yeah yeah i like that okay good and the last question is where nara is your happy place oh i like that question probably my bed it's comfy i really perfected it My pillows are good, but it has to be my bed with a hot water bottle. Heaven. Or, I don't know, Americans love electric blankets, but I prefer... Hot water bottle, so you can hug it. You can hug it. I put it by my feet, though, because I feel like if your feet are warm, your whole body warms up. You know you can get a big long one. I've got one. What do you mean? It's like a meter long. You're actually joking me.

54:09Fearne Cotton: Nope. Where? Amazon, and you can tighten it, not round your waist. What? When you've got period pains. Amazing. I had no idea. Please treat yourself to a sausage-shaped hot water bottle. Do it. Wow. I will go find one after this immediately. I can't believe you haven't even gone there. I didn't know that. Yeah. Wow. But my friend Iris, she travels a lot, and I was looking into her travel bag, and she always travels with a hot water bottle, and she has the flight attendants fill it up with boiling water on her plane if it's a longer plane ride. It's the best idea. I stole that idea from her. Heaven.

54:44Yeah. Well, you're welcome.

54:47Fearne Cotton: well thank you that is actually fabulous i had no idea nara thank you so much for being here and congrats on your stunning book and long may your beautiful success continue thank you thank you that is so kind oh i love that thank you so much nara she's just such a wonderful person to chat to and obviously sort of unbelievably gorgeous did you see Nara's skirt if you're watching this rather than just listening well actually if you're listening rather than watching let me tell you what this skirt was like sort of like a sheer beautiful maxi dress with little flowers like embroidered flowers all over it and then a big old lovely cozy mohair sweater if you are watching this you'll notice that I've dressed up for Nara sometimes obviously like I've rolled out of bed but today I've worn a suit and a shirt that is as old as Nara okay I wore this shirt I think it was like for the press uh back in the day when I was doing Love Island when I was 23 when I was her age when I was like 23 24 this shirt is as old as Nara Smith how nuts anyway it's a classic so I'm keeping it forever but obviously I wanted to be suited and booted for Nara because I knew she would turn up in a gorgeous outfit but I loved that and I think anyone out there who previously I don't know thought that her content wasn't okay or I don't know found her controversial I reckon that you will have been absolutely turned because she articulated herself so beautifully there and I think she's doing great things and the book is sensational so thank you very much Nara.

56:28Fearne Cotton: Nara's debut cookbook, it's a lovely book here, it's called Homemade. It's a gorgeous book filled with family-friendly recipes. I know because the Oreos that myself and Honeymaid went down so well. They were gorgeous. It's available right now so you can go and get it. Again, a massive, huge, ginormous thank you to Nara and to you lovely lot for listening. You're the best.

57:25Fearne Cotton: We'll see you next time. with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Whoever said good things come to those who wait, never shop Black Friday early at Lowe's. Right now, get up to 50 % off select major appliances.

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