Why the World's "Scariest Economist" Believes We're at a Tipping Point

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26:03For J.D. Power 2026 U.S. initial quality study award information, visit jdpower.com slash awards. Awards based on 2026 model year. Newer models may be shown. So not just private profit haven't been as eloquent as they have been, for example, in the BBC. Again, I'm sitting in the U.K. where the BBC, a great public broadcaster, I'm sure you all, when you used to travel, would watch BBC News in your hotel rooms. They have always been driven by this notion of public value, which is simply not talked about in business schools or probably even in HBR great journals, right? So they didn't just limit themselves to fixing the market in an area like documentaries about giraffes in a region or high-quality news.

26:42They also did soap operas. They also did talk shows driven by an internal debate of what they thought was really kind of pathbreaking for society. So they did EastEnders, you know, a soap opera about the working class, basically, instead of just Dallas and Dynasty, which, you know, your American viewers will know what I'm talking about. At least the old ones like me. Anyway, so all these discussions about the metrics within the organization, which, of course, private sector organizations have had recently around ESG kind of targets when they want to become good companies. We actually need to bring that back to the public sector, and that's going to make it more exciting to work in it.

27:18You know, if you're a co-creator of value, if you're an investor of first resort, not just a lender of last resort, and if you internally have a dynamic debate of what's the right thing, what's the wrong thing to do, it makes it an exciting place to work. If you're just fixing markets, enabling, and at best de-risking some mythological risk taker that's out there, it's kind of boring. Of course, you'd rather go work in a risk-taking company. So let me just follow quickly then on the private side of the public-private question. You know, I sensed a certain skepticism, maybe dismissiveness in your comments about being in Davos and in your book.

27:59They won't invite me back now, I guess. No, no, no. They need to be there. But anyway, you know, so so it's easy to say that the companies are, you know, are just profit motivated, that they're talking the talk, but not walking the walk. But, you know, or is it is it significant that after 50 years of companies kind of lining up with a Milton Friedman-esque approach to we have to serve shareholders? That's our fiduciary duty. That's probably required by law. The conversation has moved, you know, and and and it's fine to be cynical. And you have to, as you said, you know, there need to be test cases.

28:39But it seems to me something significant has happened in the boardrooms of big U.S. corporations and European corporations that were not in the same place that we were certainly 50 years ago, but maybe even five years ago. I agree. And I didn't mean to be dismissive. I know it's easy to sound dismissive when it's late in the day and you're – No, what I'd like to say, I mean, what I really meant to say, and I guess this is dismissive, is to say, look, let's just stop talking about this. Right. You know, the notion of stakeholder value is actually not new. Let's do it. Let's actually do it. And the only way to do it is to do it in a super practical way, which is actually to test out what it looks like.

29:22If we can't do it with vaccine production, if we can't do it with a therapy for COVID, which is from Desivere, which is being put out by Gilead, and even though it's had huge amounts of public investment, it's going for over$3 ,000 a dosage, that doesn't feel very purpose-driven. And so my point is that purpose, a really great concept that we shouldn't be dismissive about, needs to go to the center of the system. It can't just be inside a discussion about corporate governance. It has to go, for example, at the center of how public and private relate one to another. And so with COVID, we have in the U.S.

30:00over$2 trillion being put by the government into the system. In Europe, over$1 trillion. In Japan, similarly. What does it look like for those funds which are at the center of the public-private relationship to actually be purpose-driven? Or even pre-COVID, one example I'll give you just to be super practical is the steel sector, which is not a sexy sector that you probably think about very much, but globally is in trouble and has been asking to be bailed out and helped globally by governments, including in the U.S. In Germany, the funds that were given by the public bank called the KFW in Germany to the steel sector was conditional on that sector reducing its material content, which they ended up doing through repurpose, reuse, recycle methods throughout their whole value chain.

30:49They're now one of the most innovative and green sustainable steel sectors in the world. And they didn't do that because they woke up and said we need to be purpose driven or join the business roundtable. They did it because they had to in order to get the government assistance. And I think this point about conditionalities, however, will be really strong if we don't see it as a penalty, you know, a condition like a mother. I've got four kids. I'm putting conditions on them all the time. You can't eat until you do your room. That's not really the right spirit. It's actually the spirit of the business roundtable, which is to say, let's do this stuff better.

31:21Let's be long termist. Let's do what's good for the community, the planet and workers and the environment. That's the planet, I guess. But let's do it in a practical way. So I just think that COVID-19 and 2021, which is the year on the back of that after a terrible year, let's get our hands dirty and get serious about doing this in the vaccine production and the therapies and our health systems and the Green Deal, bringing it back to the agenda, but at the center of the recovery funds. So just a reminder for everyone watching, if you have a question for Professor Matukatu, please do post it in the comments because we're getting those shortly.

32:00Mariana, you're about to launch your new book, Mission Economy, which will be published in January in the UK and in March in the US. In that book, you advocate that we need a moonshot to rethink the capacities and role of government within the economy and the society. The moment we're in, as you said, is pivotal. Earlier in this conversation, you talked about Kerala and what's happening in Vietnam. Which governments, in your opinion, are leading the way and what are they doing specifically that stands out?

32:34Mariana? Great. I hope you can still hear me. Oh, yes, we can hear you. Can you still hear me? I think I shot out there for a minute. Yes. Yes, you're back. You're back. Did you hear my question, Mariana? Can you hear me? Oh, dear. Yes. We can hear you. Yes. Can you hear us? God, I love live. Yeah, can you hear me? Am I back? Oh, God, okay. You're back. But, you know, this is Brexit. It must be Brexit. We're in a pandemic. We're in different countries. To be honest, it is probably these kids. They're all back with their digital thing. No, it might be me. When I host, this seems to happen, and I know Adi's going to give me a hard time about it now.

33:22Quick answer. No, I'm sure the problem's on my end. So, I mean, look, I usually say it's not about the country. It's about the organizations and certain things that are happening in those countries. And I can point to you really interesting things happening even in countries that are not getting their national priorities straight. But let me just give you a good example of a country. Sweden currently has a mission. And maybe, wait, maybe I should just backtrack. The point of the book is to say we have these sustainable development goals, 17 of them. We actually agreed on them globally in 2005, only five years ago, right?

33:57This is not that long ago. what does it mean to turn those challenges societal challenges into moonshots so you go from the very broad 17 goals into moonshots that are inspirational right so the clean oceans one SDG 14 you make that a plastic free ocean and all of a sudden that opens up the possibility of all sorts of collaborations innovation across many different sectors you know going to the moon required innovation and nutrition electronics materials software to a large extent the whole software industry was a spillover trying to get to the moon. But especially what's interesting with the Apollo program is that the procurement policy, so the tools that government used to relate to the private sector really fostered lots of bottom-up innovation.

34:43It wasn't technocratic. I mean, they definitely had a top-down goal, but how they got there was definitely bottom-up. And that's what we need to do with the SDGs. So again, the plastic-free ocean one, you can imagine all sorts of different experiments and projects that would be required to do that. But we need to then bring that down to the design of the pools themselves, whether it's procurement, grants, loans, prize schemes. And Sweden, just coming now to your question, is interesting because they've set a mission nationally, which is about a fossil-free welfare state. And that's quite broad, but it's also quite specific, right?

35:23Public education, public health, public transport. And then go even further, school meals, right? I mean, with COVID, we've discovered that so many kids, their only healthy meal, or in some cases, only meal is in school. So, of course, we need to make sure those school meals continue to get delivered. So in the UK, for example, there's been a voucher scheme. So even during the lockdown, the kids had access to it. But we should make sure these school meals themselves are fostering innovation across the whole value chain of production, distribution, and consumption. And Sweden has a healthy, tasty, so not just IKEA meatballs, sustainable school meal mission.

36:01And I just think that's a really good example because it's so easy just to focus again on the kind of quantum computing, AI, you know, big data stuff. But the stuff we do every day can be really kind of boring and static or super innovative. And getting governments to think about their whole spectrum of different things that they deliver every day for people from public transport, public housing, and school meals as a funnel for innovation, investment, collaboration with the private sector to deliver on public goals, that's what I mean by the moonshot approach. Wonderful. So before we go to audience questions, I do have a question for you about Europe.

36:40With the December 31st deadline for a trade agreement between the EU and the UK approaching, the risk of a no deal Brexit is mounting. There have been numerous headlines and studies about the financial impact of Brexit on the UK economy, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the broader economic ramifications for the remaining EU member states. When we consider the fallout of potentially a no-deal Brexit coupled with the economic contraction as a result of the coronavirus pandemic, can Europe bounce back? Well, Europe can definitely bounce back. And Europe is currently, again, you know, I really think the recovery program in Europe is incredibly ambitious.

37:17It's conditional on investments around huge public problems around the climate crisis, as I mentioned, digitalization and strengthening our health systems. The real warning sign to the rest of the member states, you know, and I'm Italian, but grew up in New Jersey and live in the UK. So I'm this weird kind of, you know, animal. so I feel that I can lecture people about what to be aware of in all these different countries because they're all interesting to learn from, is that what actually drives business investment, and listen to Warren Buffett when he talks about this, it's not a tax cut or the cost of doing something.

37:53It's the perception of where future opportunities lie. And the real problem with Brexit is that in a country which was already experiencing lagging productivity and really lagging investment, right? So GDP is not a perfect measure, but you can track investment, the business investment side of things. By reducing the size of the market that the UK is in, that reduces business investment even more than it was before, because the perception of the future market and also opportunities that are available by being within a global market that can actually negotiate properly with the US and China has massively diminished.

38:30Now, but that wouldn't be enough. What's also interesting is Europe has historically actually been the place where real debate and struggles for improving environmental conditions, working conditions happened. And those then trickled down at the member state level. And what's so interesting with Brexit is the first thing that the UK government did is say, oh, finally, we don't have to abide by these environmental regulations anymore or working regulations. And that's such a back, you know, a backwards movement. We need to progress. We need to go, you know, do what we've been talking about, which is bring public purpose, challenge-oriented thinking, and bring different forces to the table, which include, of course, labor unions, which have historically got us the weekend.

39:16Do people realize that the weekend got, you know, was fought for? The eight-hour workday was fought for. So really the question is, what are these modern kind of struggles that we should all be talking about and what are the forces that we need to kind of to get there and is just building walls whether Trump's wall or the Brexit wall going to help us get there or is it actually opening ourselves up to not just international competition which is often talked about but that debate about what we need as a society to be more inclusive and sustainable and unfortunately the Brexit debate has gone you know has brought us backwards on that so Europe is bringing us forwards and you know it's too bad and I really hope that the decision will be reversed somehow we'll see that a no-deal Brexit is terrible or even a crappy deal Brexit is terrible but anyway this is too political so I do just want to share some feedback that we have from our highly engaged audience we have hello from Luxembourg from Shiva my favorite economist and Christopher says I would give anything to be on this call and join so thank you for being with us today.

40:24I do want to share a question from Rachel in Minnesota, your professor, and she's asking, what role does higher education play in supporting the role of public sector innovation, and can there be better partnerships? Oh, what a great question. So I think it's, and I'm not sure if I'm tackling this in the right way, but first of all, education is fundamental. The reason I actually set up the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London three years ago, is that I believe that better policy needs new training, needs also new education for civil servants globally, to get them out of this notion of kind of new public management, public choice theory, which has basically convinced global bureaucrats that the best they can do is, again, fix markets, and that government failure is even worse than market failure.

41:08So take up as little space as you can and then get out of the way. So that's one side of the answer, which is I actually think we need a new education program for bureaucrats. There's no reason that the word bureaucratic should be a negative word. We need bureaucracies. We just need dynamic, creative bureaucracies. But the other question is education, education, education. That is really the biggest level. Having an education system which is kind of a two-track one, so one, say, private education and the public education system being underfinanced is a key driver of inequality. But that's not necessarily about higher education.

41:45That's literally from day one when you enter a nursery and when you finish high school. And, you know, I went to Princeton High School in New Jersey, a public high school. And unfortunately, what I've seen definitely in London and in the U.S. and in Italy is an underinvestment, not just in terms of money, but the imagination of what public education is for. And can I say something super provocative? Of course. Yeah, definitely. Just abolish private education. If you had pushy mothers in every school, you know, I just actually think public education is something we should all be talking a lot more about and strengthening it, just like we should strengthen public health systems.

42:28But higher education in terms of universities, you know, there's it's just so fundamental. We know that. I mean, so much of the research that has led to both the vaccine production in Oxford, which, by the way, is a public university, state university, anyway, and also the innovation that, again, got us Google's algorithm through a grant given by the National Science Foundation to Stanford University. You know, you could just go on and on. It's, you know, public education and public research is fundamental. The problem is that by just assuming that it's important without actually bringing it to the table and redesigning how we actually bring together academia, public funding, private sector funding, but also the small, medium, large companies and, you know, to different degrees, the science industry linkages, then we're missing the trick of how to actually engage public education with the greatest problems of our time.

43:25And I mentioned before, I think I did, you know, that it's not just about STEM subjects. It's not just natural sciences that are important. It's also the humanities, you know, poetry, you know, literature, the arts are so fundamental for making us think differently. And it's not a coincidence that the plastic free mission that I mentioned before has become very much in the mind of kids. and again I have four of them they all know the plastic free mission on the back of a documentary that was made by David Attenborough called the blue planet so bringing the cultural sector and the humanities in academia in higher education to the table in these discussions I think is so important it helps us reimagine what kind of lives we want to be living and how to live together in a better way yes thank you for that I'm going to go to one more question and from the audience Earlier, you talked about the sustainability goals that the General Assembly of the UN put in place five years ago for 2030.

44:23And I know you were recently announced as a chair of the Council for the World Health Organization. Vera from Rome has asked, what role can the UN and other international organizations have in fostering private and public partnerships? I think it is through the SDGs, which, by the way, weren't handed down from the UN. There was a massive stakeholder engagement. They were debated, they were chosen globally. And the UN convened that conversation and then allowed these really ambitious 17 goals with 169 targets beneath them to be at the center stage. And I think what the UN should then do is really make sure that the everyday stuff we do, especially that governments do, because in the end it's the governments sort of at the table with the United Nations, that they bring those SDGs to the center.

45:17And in some ways, coming back to Adi's point, the private sector in some ways has been leading on this by having a debate, at least, in the Davos kind of areas about ESG and beyond ESG, just making purpose and the sustainability targets to be more relevant for company governance. But what does it mean for governments to bring them to the center of what they do, whether it's industrial strategy, which is not just a list of sectors to support, but how all the different sectors work together to deliver those goals, innovation policy, procurement policy. see, again, a huge chunk of government budgets, often over 30 percent, is dedicated to procurement, how they purchase stuff, whether it's desks for schools, hospital beds, you know, cement for the roads.

46:01You can bring sustainability to the center of those processes of purchasing, as well as obviously even more so with investing. So I think the more the UN can help build that capacity on the ground to bring the SDGs away from just being this abstract kind of philosophical point, as important as ethics and morality and solidarity is to the everyday. Make it boring. Make it so we all have to do it. It's embedded in the design of how the system works. Mariana, thank you so much for joining us. You clearly have this very energized fan base and lots of questions. Sorry we couldn't get to all of them.

46:39We tried. Thank you, Octavia, for bringing as much feedback as you could. And thanks to my co-host. Thanks to the sponsor as well, to our sponsor. I also just want to let you know we're off for the next couple weeks. We're back on January 5th. And then on January 19th, when we end our season, we'll have our special guest back, Dr. Anthony Fauci. Not a moment too soon. That should be a lot of fun. So thank you all for pinning in and have a safe and pleasant holiday.

47:31And we're back. It's the HVGARDEN now after show.

47:40You're a couple hours ahead of us. Yeah. This is a good one. I'm Italian. So my husband has abandoned me for seven weeks to go to his other, no, just kidding. He doesn't have another phone. He went on a film, what do you call it? Production. He's a film producer. He's just come back and brought wine and salami. Was he on location filming something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is actually quite exceptional because most film production, yeah. He does artsy-fartsy films that win every festival but don't make enough money.

48:17So I have a question about something we didn't get to, which is, you know, you write a lot about how we're not measuring the right things when we think about the value of the economy. But, you know, that discussion often then gets into a discussion of happiness and a discussion of universal basic income, maybe, you know, and ultimately a discussion about why do we live? Do we live to work? Do we work to live? And I find, you know, you talk about things like universal basic income and people say, yeah, you can't have that because our whole identity and self-worth is wrapped up in work. I'm not so sure it is.

48:54I could imagine a different sense of happiness and fulfillment that isn't that. But you've researched this a lot more. I'm really curious what you think about that. You know, so I began the book, The Value of Everything, with this quote by Plato, if you can call it a quote, that storytellers rule the world. And I really think we need to change the narrative. So my problem with universal basic income is less about the economics of it, but the narrative. It still feels like a handout. It feels like someone else is creating wealth, and then somehow the money arrives to government, which then writes a check to citizens.

49:32Whereas I prefer the notion of a citizen's share, a citizen's dividend, or a public wealth fund, which puts the citizen who has helped to create that value in a way that, by the way, Warren Buffett is always reminding us. I think I mentioned before, he always says, I have benefited from a massive amount of social value that's been created. Bill Gates himself often admits that. Peter Thiel doesn't, by the way. Let's not name too many people. Probably one of your sponsors. Not now. He was going to come in next week. I'm not embarrassed by doing this. Admitting that wealth is co-created by all sorts of different actors, not only the public sector, but all the workers and citizens that are part of that means that that should then be distributed.

50:23redistributed back. And that's about pre-distribution, not just redistribution. So I don't know if I'm putting out too much lingo there. But the reason I like the citizen's share, the citizen's dividend, or public wealth funds, it is about getting the conditions right ex ante, not just picking up the mess afterwards with a check that sent it. JOHN MCWHORTER - I think that's what politicians like Andrew Yang were trying to get across with that kind of dividend notion. And then Adi, to the point, I think his point at least was taken was that people actually do find meaningful work that they can't really afford to do it's just other ways of creating value which is what i i love a lot of like your conversation around you know value extraction for just moving assets around basically but not necessarily doing anything to move society forward but people get really rich that way yeah well you know what's interesting again going back to the book on value i i luckily just wrote one chapter, but it could have been much longer, and 400 years of thinking about value.

51:24And I went back to the physiocrats who were writing about this in the 1700s. And the first ever spreadsheet was made in the 1700s by this guy, Francois Connet, who was one of the physiocrats. And they were really worried about all the value that was being extracted out of the system by the landlords. And they called the landlords the sterile class, literally sterility, in the sense that they would put the reproduction of the system, you know, these interesting concepts at risk. And I think if you look at global finance, you know, again, in the UK where I'm sitting, 80 % of finance goes back to finance, you know, finance, insurance, and real estate.

52:05The acronym is FIRE. We could tell Greta Thunberg, because she says, you know, the planet is on fire. We're not acting. Actually, the financial system is also on fire because it's been financing itself. And so how do you get that financial system to be reinvested or finance, sorry, global finance to be reinvested back into A, the real economy, and the real economy that's actually driven by, again, goals. And that's not because a government official is telling them that, but that's actually what makes our global system more reproductive. And that's why this concept of the circular economy is really important, you know, making sure that we're both reducing waste, but we actually have this kind of circular system where the value that's being created is reinvested back into what makes us all better off in the planet and we're resilient to crises, whether it's a health crisis or a climate crisis.

52:55But they were talking about that 300 years ago. And the problem with Trump is he kind of brought us back even 100 years earlier than the physiocrats. And that was the mercantilist period where all they cared about was exchange rates, terms of trade, you know, the 1651 Navigation Acts. You know, so it was all about building barriers and thinking about who's screwing who. Sorry, this is the after party, right? Yeah, yeah, we can go blue now. Yeah, yeah. I'm drinking out of a false wine cup, so no one knows if it's green tea or white wine. But yeah, so I think what's really important that Biden can do now is to kind of transform that, you know, make America great again is not about the mercantilist period.

53:39It's about an investment program. but what are we investing in and who's deciding and how can we get citizens to believe again and why politics matters. So also bringing in citizen assemblies to be part of, you know, the discussion about what we need to be solving. Yeah. But the finance people are the most productive people on the planet. Yeah. I mean, we have so many good plans. And I think about the good plans for climate change and, you know, net zero, they cost a lot of money. And I, you know, I can be optimistic when I read the plans and then pessimistic just because I don't quite see where all the money is going to come from to lead the transformations that we need, some of which you've talked about, some of which are climate related.

54:26Am I being too pessimistic here? Well, you need to look at the numbers. $4 trillion having been spent on share buybacks in the last 10 years, that's a wasted opportunity, right? So the money's there. The question is, where is it being spent on? And so you could argue, yeah, fine, but companies can do what they want with their money. The question is, right, where did that money come from? Where did those profits come from? So as soon as we, again, admit this massive social, collective value creation process, there should be much more discussion of where these funds, the revenues, you know, actually are going.

55:06And it's not a lack of funds. It's a misdirection. And also in terms of governments, when we go to war, which we do, you know, World War I, World War II, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, you know, whatever. You can go on and on. Have you ever heard, even in the movies about these wars, anyone saying, oh, dear, we don't have the money. We can't go. They create the money. When it's war, we create the money. So money can be created. That's the whole MMT debate, modern monetary theory, in the US. I think one of the problems with that debate is that it's still a political process, right? So again, the narrative, the discussion of what we say is urgent, that's what needs to change.

55:45So making these social goals around our welfare states, like public education, public health, the future of mobility, which is sort of a public transport, but not only problem at the center stage of how we bring together different actors and say, this is urgent. You know, this is Greta's point. Greta says, Greta Thornburg, 16 now, what is she? 17 now. She says, if your house is on fire, you don't sit there and debate. Oh, should I leave? You know, what should I bring with me? That book or that quilt? You just get the hell out, you know? So when you say something is an emergency, you act. The problem is we've allowed security concerns and wartime scenarios to be seen as an emergency or climate change when it's too late, when the fires or the floods are out there.

56:33It's kind of too late to wait for fires and floods to be really at that kind of urgency and emergency phase. So how can we proactively, preemptively say that these, I always go back to the SDGs. I'm going to keep doing that until we actually solve them. Those are urgent, but they have to be nested within conversations that are local. They're kind of too abstract. You have to bring it to the city level, to the regional level, to the national level. It makes sense of it, but the only way to do that is to bring different voices. And that's where, sorry, I will shut up in a second. I do think that we need to benefit from the Black Lives Matter movement, the Fridays for the Future movement, and bring movements, you know, make this a movement.

57:15We need to make it a movement. So bringing different voices to the table for the design phase. It can't just be reactive. So I actually have a question. It's a little bit off topic from some of the great stuff you were just discussing, but I think it ties in and it's a little seasonal. And it reminded me of some of the stuff you were saying about communities and value. As an economist, what is your favorite Christmas movie or holiday movie? I'm thinking of things like It's a Wonderful Life and A Christmas Carol with Scrooge, who is just an air version of, you know, someone who's a landlord and a debt collector.

57:53I don't know if there were any, if there's like a holiday movie that you watch as the economist and think, huh, they still do that today. I mean, the great thing of It's a Wonderful Life is it just made people realize why having, you know, a kind of a federal reserve system and the guarantee is important. We kind of forget that these things that we all benefit from came out of a crisis. But also just the deeply personal, you know, how it affects people, you know, because you go to this kind of systemic change that we need, you know, what's the equivalent of innovation like that in the Federal Reserve today to defend us against the biggest risks we have, which aren't just financial risks, but climate risks.

58:35What would be the equivalent of that, right? It's going to make it so wonderful life in 30 years around climate and not banking. Yeah, it's not snowing in Bedford Falls at that point. Yeah, but what I love about that was that it was so deeply personal. There was families both within the banking sector and not. And I feel like, you know, this comes back to my trade union point. People forget that stuff we take for granted was fought for. You know, often people died for things that we all are benefiting from. And, you know, labor is, sorry, I keep, I sound very ideological, but labor's share is at a record low.

59:11The profit share is at a record high. That's not going to be solved by an economist. That's not going to be solved by a politician or a CEO of the Dallas type. Sorry, I'm going to dismiss Dallas again. That's going to be solved by a battle. And how all these different forces, the business community, the different public forces, but citizens are battling it out. I just think we need to talk about that more. And actually, the Harvard Business Review should talk about it more, because we should remember it was movements that even got us the AIDS drug. It's what got us birth control. It's what got, you know, the suffragettes, the voting.

59:50You know, it's what got us the civil rights movement. You know, these are huge innovations, social innovations. Well, the question is, you know, how do you change the world? I mean, we've published some great pieces in the last few years, first of all, on, you know, breaking down the whole concept of shareholder primacy, that it is, you know, flawed logic and not even really a matter of law. You know, we did a really great piece, The Case Against Stock Buybacks. Yep. With Bill Hassan. Last week on the show, we had Dan Schulman, who was the only Davos guy I found who's actually willing to talk about labor.

1:00:27Usually when labor comes up or the power of unions, everyone is like, yeah, no. I'm all for the stakeholders, but union, I'm out of here. The question is, how does change happen? And it probably happens when you don't realize it. It's an accumulation of little moves, and then something changes. Or maybe it's a revolution. I don't know, but I, we're, we're in there fighting the fight. You know, the system's broken and, and we're all trying to do what we can to try to fix it. I agree with you. All right. I think we have to let you go, right? I know we do. This is great. You have to come back. I will.

1:01:05I will. Invite me back once the book's out.

1:01:12Reorder the book. It's a recipe book. It's a recipe book. Mariana, we want the book Yeah, of course you want Wait, what do you mean you want the book? We thought we might get some sort of sneak preview Or something I thought you wanted it on sale No, I mean, I'll buy the book In the US, it's out in March So we've got three months to organize the next session Reorder now Maybe we're together And we actually have a real conversation Because we get together in person In London or something Yeah, that'd be fantastic. All right. But until then, happy holidays. Happy New Year. Ciao, ciao. Thank you.

1:01:55See you later, producer Dave. Bye-bye. Thanks.