“I Feel Like I’m Going Through This Alone” | We Open Up About The Hardest Stage Of Our Fertility Journey

0:02Louise: Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

0:11Louise: Hi, I'm Shin Yee Pai. Five years ago, I sat down in front of a microphone with a simple goal to share stories from the Asian American experience. And to do that by talking about everyday objects. Now, 10 ,000 Things is headed into its fifth and final season. And we've got a new set of stories about coming fully into oneself, weird and wild and inspired. Tune in to the final season of 10 ,000 Things from ACAST Creative Studios, a podcast about modern-day artifacts of Asian American life and the stories they reveal. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00Louise: Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com I like that Kara's really helping me out today. So I don't know what I was thinking when I turned up to the clinic this morning in a little bubble, like mid-axi skirt, and a top that my boobs are basically busting out of, and these buttons keep opening. Oh, the buttons keep opening. Buttons keep popping off. Oh, okay. I know, I think it's... I've missed this whole show. The microphone's like right down the centre of your shirt. Yeah, and that's why I've now got a modesty shawl on. A modesty shawl. Just so that everyone's not seeing my titties.

1:43Louise: So for anybody that doesn't know where we've been this morning, Ron and I were up in Euston at a fertility clinic and we were coming to the end of our third IVF cycle and I had an egg retrieval. How do you feel after your egg retrieval? I'm going to be honest, I feel quite woozy today. So expect a different kind of episode. Fair play though. I mean, to have that done a few hours ago and to be sat here is pretty impressive. Thank you. Yeah, I think I was feeling quite ambitious about it. Given that it's our third cycle, I thought I'm a dab hand at this so I can handle it. You are a dab hand at it.

2:22Louise: roll straight into the podcast the same afternoon it's a different process i think for girls and boys you boys are like limbering up for your chop shop involvement and we have to go through i don't i don't want to compare but it's it's definitely different oh yeah i feel actually i feel really relieved i feel happy to have had it done um and also i thought it would be nice to come on the podcast just to speak really candidly about the experience okay given that it's so fresh about today specifically or the whole cycle yeah i think like look we're quite honest people like we've shared a lot about our fertility journey and it's not always easy um but often it is easier to talk about things like retrospectively looking back and commenting on them when you've kind of process them and overcome them but given that this is something that just happened to me this morning i think it's also important to be really honest to people about how it is tough like when you're actually going through the like hormonal roller coaster i've been through today and i've basically just had ovaries that have gone from the size of grapes to grapefruits grapefruits and then just had them be isn't that crazy and i i don't really know where they fit inside me because I've got quite a small body.

3:43Louise: So it always amazes me what's possible. This is going to, I actually don't know the practicalities of this. So when you say your ovaries have gone from that size to that size. Yeah. So do they then go into the ovaries with some sort of grabber and take eggs that are inside? Is that what happens? That's actually a really valid question. So based on your response, you don't know, do you? No, they don't have a grabber. They have like a sucker. Whenever someone says that's a really good question, it's like, you don't know the answer, but let's go with it. Do you know the best part about all of it is that you're sedated?

4:16Louise: And sedation is the best sleep you will ever have. It is the easiest sleep. They literally put an oxygen mask on you, and then they're chatting to you, and you try to resist really hard, and you chat a load of shit, and you think you'll be really smart, and then you're just gone. Well, sorry, because you've got a can, because you've got a can, you know, they just pump you with something, which makes... Yes, it's a miracle. And then, yeah, so essentially, Ryan very kindly drove me to the appointment this morning. Sat in this small little room. I got changed into a gown. You are not very good with blood tests and that kind of thing.

4:48Louise: And cannulas really freak you out. But I wanted to say thanks for actually staying in the room this time. Because quite often Ryan will have to leave the room when that happens. And the last experience I had was not that pleasant. Because they had to have four or five goes to even get the cannula in. And then my hands literally blew up. Like I had a huge, do you remember? Yes, I remember. It was like a blood blister, like a water blister. Yeah. So that bit happened. And then, yeah. And then I went into like a little room. It's like a little theatre. But it's amazing how simple these spaces are.

5:20Louise: They're really just like a room with a bed and some... I'm not with you at this point, so I don't know what happens next. Yeah. And then like, what do they call the bits that you put your legs in? You have to put your... Stirrups. Stirrups. Yeah, he knows. but because I'm really small the stirrups are literally out here and I always say like guys I am spread right now I can hardly get my legs into the sphere of stirrups it's quite full on isn't it luckily they put you to sleep before they start like before they like lift lift the blankets up and start bloody hell looking at your vagina and then they put something in which is a probe I think it's much the same as an ultrasound like a transvaginal ultrasound Do you remember when I asked you?

6:09For some reason, that transvaginal, like, term stayed in my mind. I asked Louise, like, on a whim. I was like, have you just been, what did I say? Yeah, this is like a few months ago.

6:19Louise: This is after our cycle in January. I came home and Ryan went, have you just been for a transvaginal? It's like, I've never heard of man say that. I thought it was like some made up thing, but you're like, yeah, I have. I actually have, well done. Every time you go for a fertility scan, it involves a transvaginal. Ultrasound is the word that comes to the end. So does that mean like inside or does that mean on top of the... No, in the vagina. Okay. It looks like a willy. Does it? Yeah. With a camera? Yeah. It's like a probe that they need to put inside you. More like a dildo then? Well, that's kind of shaped after a willy.

6:52Louise: This is good. Sorry. There's nothing sexual about this process. So then I think at the end of this camera, they basically have like very, very fine needles and they go in... Into the ovary. Through the wall. Of the ovary. I'm just trying to clarify that. Yeah, yeah. So that is... The science. Let me get my science right. So the probe goes inside the vagina and then it goes through the walls of the vagina into the ovaries, which are much easier to see because they're so big. And then it goes into the individual follicles and basically sucks all the fluid out. And then I guess they put a... It's someone's job to collect all of that fluid and really quickly take it to some Petri dish somewhere.

7:33Louise: and assess how many eggs you've got. And then they have to clean them and do all their stuff. They're taking fluid and that fluid, it's the fluid that then gets put into a Petri dish and my swimmers come in. Yeah, so then with our case, so there's two things, there's IVF and there's ICSI. So IVF is where you let just like a sperm sample with your swimmers in it race to compete to meet the egg and like it's kind of survival of the fittest because then the best one would win. I'm still doing that. But if you've got sperm that are maybe a bit immobile or like swimming in the wrong direction, then they do something called ICSI, which is where they actually use, and now they use AI where they access a billion different data points and the machines can tell which sperm are going to be the strongest.

8:25Louise: So they'll pick out those individual sperm with a needle and they'll puncture it into the egg. so hang on have I been given a chance to have a race or am I straight into the ICSI you're straight into the ICSI babe oh fucking hell I'm getting old fucking hell well we could ask them to do we could split them and do half IVF half ICSI because I quite like the idea of natural selection because then at least you know it's a case of may the best man or woman win nah pick the strongest women I guess pick the strongest ones yeah and then they use all these other little techniques it's probably already happening by the way because they said it is it's happening now It's happening right now.

9:00Louise: Oh my God. Did they tell you anything about your sperm? No, Louise. No, I don't see a human. When you hand it over, do you do like a little prayer? I'm in the chop shop and I put it in the room and then I press the bell and run. Do you kiss the little tube that you put it in and go, good luck, and put it through and go like, may the best swimmer win? No. That's like something out of the movies, but that's not real life. No, mate. Did it look like a healthy sample? You're like trying to get the lid back on, put it in the bag and run. You run out? Yeah. But then how do they know it's yours? My name's on...

9:32Louise: Oh my God. Imagine if we've got a situation like someone else's. Your name's on it as well, which is quite weird. There's a pop that says Louise and Ryan. I'm like, uh... How was this experience this morning for you? Because I know that this is your third time. Don't know. I don't know how honest I can be about it. Be really honest. I don't think you would like the honest version. Well, I'll have to take it. I'd rather you be honest than dishonest. I've got a thick skin I don't know though it is actually a bit of a dilemma in my mind because I know how much it means to you but

10:11I don't think I was ready for any of the cycles but the third one in particular just kind of seemed to happen without my awareness and I wasn't really involved I feel like your whole injection how long did that go on for? like 10 or 12 days okay being honest I feel like I missed all of it okay well I actually appreciate your honesty I missed that and then when it came to I just I I just got notifications in my inbox to say that I'm due to do things and I was like oh my god I feel so far removed from this process and if I hover above the situation I know in my heart and mind that this should feel and look very different but I'm still so uh uneasy about the whole thing I've sort of had to roll through this cycle for three times and today I found really I don't I don't know if you noticed I don't know if you were consumed with your own emotions or I don't know if the sedative had kind of leveled you out but I've barely said a word all day on the way there the way back i've barely said a word all day which is frustrating in some ways because i i've worked a lot on trying to find roots and ways in on conversations that i find difficult but today i've almost reverted back to i can't i can't find my way in so i'm going to sit on this and i've become very irritable all day okay to the point where i was sat there for two hours i did my production room moment and then i was like trying to be supportive in the room with you but it was small and hot and you were kind of in and out of consciousness a little bit and i was like this for me is torture your procedure itself was very very very quick but we were there for a fair few hours and it's just yeah i i didn't feel i haven't felt great today i actually was too honest with these guys when i arrived because i was like i don't the podcast is the last thing i want to do today in truth okay but that's just a reflection of like i've i've not been able to construct a sentence all day and now here i am talking about this morning's event what do you think is so many things i want to ask you because it makes me i feel i feel sad that you

12:38Louise: don't feel like you've been able to talk about it last night when we were in bed i said i i feel as So I've tried to talk to you a little bit about it over the last few weeks, but I feel like I have to really tiptoe around it because I feel as though it's something that you just want to avoid talking about. Which part? The whole idea. The whole thing. So I feel as though I'm very much going through it alone. And that is hard, but I also feel as though it's something that I should do because it's a safety, because how honest do you want me to be? We're both feet in now, so go for it. I sometimes find it quite hard that I feel like I am slightly going through the process on my own, especially when I see people, you know, with their partners, getting involved.

13:39In what way?

13:40Louise: massaging feet doing their injections asking how they are checking in on them like even just asking a single question how are you doing like are you okay you're excited for Thursday you're nervous I feel as though I'll try and ask you the questions about it but I don't get a lot of response when I asked you about it last night and said um like how are you feeling because I noticed that you were not you know fully yourself yesterday and I was like are you okay you feel a bit nervous about tomorrow and you just said um no I haven't even thought about it once and so I was like okay well that's I get that and I was like actually that sounds quite positive like I don't want it to plague you like I I'm quite happy to take like the brunt of the stress and try to lighten the load for you and then we'll get it done and then hopefully it will be the last time we have to do it but it doesn't it's not easy I think that's fair.

14:38I think again if I put myself in a helicopter and look above or look down on the situation I would be the first one to admit that I but I'm not being myself currently. I haven't for a long time in this situation with IVF and surrogacy and if I'm looking from top down it's frustrating because I'm almost grabbing myself being like you just be yourself just be the supportive just lean into the process just just show up but it's very very difficult for me to do that because my my heart is not convinced that this is the path I want to be on and I've said that from day one on this journey we'll come back to the word journey but um it's very difficult for me to

15:25amp up emotions that are not that genuine but let's be clear on I'm not deliberately trying to be unsupportive or unloving or I would never want to cause more stress to the situation because I'm very aware that stress is especially for something like this, it would be a very big factor that could negatively impact things. But yeah, it's been a really, really, really difficult thing for me.

16:10Sorry, not as is. Still is a difficult thing for me. so I don't quite know where to take the conversation from here because I'm sort of torn down the middle there's half of me that wants to be the supportive partner and I've absolutely got the ingredients and capabilities to do that I've done that a number of times with previous things in our relationship but with this one I'm finding it hard

16:40Louise: I think sometimes It feels

16:45Louise: Harder when there's been a lack of communication And then suddenly it all comes at once Yeah And I think it's then It just doesn't feel very grown up So are you saying In generality or Us because everything I've just said is not new. I think it's hard. I think the grown-up thing is to have the consistent conversations to check in on each other, to gauge how everyone's feeling, and then to try and put a plan into place that both people are happy with. I don't disagree. And so it's tricky for me to sit here and hear that now. Hear what? When I feel like we should be celebrating the fact that we got 16 eggs today and thinking about what the future of that might mean.

17:37This is a very personal topic for us. It's a very difficult conversation. It's a very strange concept. And the situation is in many ways quite unfortunate because we didn't choose to be in this situation. So there's lots of complexities around this conversation. There's also the dynamic between you as the mother and the woman in the situation and me as a dad and a man. I have my own thoughts and feelings about the situation, which don't tally up with yours beautifully well. But that's okay because couples are meant to fight through things together. So I'm sorry that my response has upset you.

18:26It's just a reminder that there's always, always, always work to be done on yourself and their relationship and how you communicate. I did say earlier on in the conversation, if you caught it, I am observing myself from up here and I am frustrated with myself. I said that in my head I've been rattling myself to get myself in on this.

18:47Louise: Can I ask how do you think I could go about understanding that better or communicating with you to understand the weight? How would I make it easier for you? I think it's more it's on me to figure out um to figure out how to conduct myself

19:07I feel things uh deeply anyway but this one I'm really really feeling I'm also a believer in uh universe and its own timing and its own rhythm and this for me hasn't really slotted into that rhythm and timing but I know that there's other reasons at play Leo's age your biological age etc I understand believe me when I say I have a full view of the situation I can see the situation on that board I can see all all the ingredients but it's important that you understand that even though I've got a view of it, I'm still not handling the severity of it very well. On the up side of it you did incredibly well today, you've come out with 16 healthy eggs and the staff were really excited for you and here you are sat on the show as if it's just a regular Thursday, so that's pretty incredible

20:16I've had all my fluids taken from me today urine, pee the other thing and yeah

20:27Louise: a lot of people say that the stimulation process throughout IVF and then the egg retrieval is the hardest part I personally think that the next five days are the hardest because that's the waiting game so you know how many eggs you've got now but then you have to wait five days to see which ones actually reached the blastocyst phase okay so when they're injected with the sperm they create an embryo so you know how many are fertilized we might know that by this afternoon but then you've got to wait and have updates from the clinic every few days or you do what you did last time yeah yeah yeah so our clinic actually has a jeez like have you been calling them they do have an out of hours number that i have tapped into before um they also have an app where you can track the embryos and you can watch them and they take 50 000 pictures a day oh i thought it was just like a live webcam over the kind of i think i think it's just photos sped up really quickly oh and then i like to use the out of last number and freak out i go why is one of the lights gone off and one of the one of the little cells but what are you going to do this time then because that's quite intense when you're like monitoring the however many bloods are called blastocysts yeah Yeah.

21:48Louise: Well, embryos, then they reach the blastocyst phase is that's the day five stage. Oh, OK, OK. So sorry, from now, five days, the next five days is really squeaky bum time. Yeah. Oh, my God. Actually, today I could get back onto the app, that app again where I can watch them. Then I start looking and comparing with other people's embryo development. Oh, no. Basically, they're supposed to split from two cells to four. Then it makes a flower shape. Then it turns into something called a morella. and then it sort of all scrambles together and then it's actually really beautiful but if you're someone with a slightly addicted personality or a control freak like it can be quite quite a bad thing I think um it was hard for me doing the last cycle around January because we went back to work so I felt like I was a bit more obsessed with it and and also because the first time we actually didn't get a viable embryo so I really really wanted it to work I think that we've got a lot more on our plates at the moment so i'm not going to be obsessively tracking i might just say like once a day i'll report back on that yeah and then hopefully and then we can update you guys when we speak again next week great well done

23:12Louise: I'm actually really hoping that my body is going to feel a little bit more like my own in the next few days what do you mean oh because the hormones like yeah puff you up or something yeah like a little bit like I feel a bit swollen everywhere everywhere pretty much yeah interesting and i actually i was um doing a fitting for the baftas a few days ago at home actually you then came back with you saw and i had to just like keep explaining to this lady that this wasn't how i normally look which is kind of pathetic that i felt like i had to like justify why i was looking so rank at the end of a wednesday i was like don't worry don't worry when it comes to the event i'm gonna be tanned and i'll be slimmer while i've done the ivf the egg retrieval and i'll go back to myself because i'm going this sunday which i think is quite brave like putting myself out there on the red carpet a few days after a procedure like this yeah which one did you go for in the end which dress i've got a couple like i've got a little safety net what outfit change midway no imagine it's my wedding yeah fucking beyonce um no i've got like the nice gold one with a cool like black lace top bit that's quite gothic looking and then i've got a real safety option, which is just a full black slip dress with a cape over the top.

24:30Wait, I'm pretty sure that we were in favour of the navy or the white one.

24:34Louise: Oh. Well, the navy one's quite similar. When I say we, I mean me, Leo, Louisa, the two stylists. So you've gone off-piste. You've gone golden blood. I woke up the following morning and was like, what's the point in going if I'm going to be wearing a corporate-looking navy, very sensible dress? I kind of wish you would come with me. I don't get invited. I think I'm going, I don't know whether I'm going on my own. I don't even think Sam's going. Sam's not going. I don't think Sam's going. So I don't know whether I'm going to just be like a loser turning up on my own. Well. I actually haven't been to the BAFTAs since we won one for me and Chelsea, which is a long time ago.

25:10So, Sarah, you're going by yourself?

25:11Louise: I am going by myself. I need to get, yeah. Well, you're not going to be one of these twats that goes for the red carpet photo and then actually just hightails out straight away. I've never, ever done that. But people do do that. Do they do that? Which I think is just so led. Name me someone that's done that. Do you know that people have done that? Well, no, but I haven't done the BAFTAs myself. I've done NTAs. And yes, I've seen people do that. They go down on that side. They take their photo and they keep going that way. Do they actually? That is so weird. Did you look at the Met Garner outfits?

25:45Did I look at the Met Garner outfits? I saw, was it Beyonce or was it? someone was in like a orange crayon boob suit and that was kim kardashian yeah that one she's

25:57Louise: pretty well known yeah i love that you're like what's that beyonce she was there a few of the kardashians were there they had an interesting outfit sort of selection this year i'd say it was like a lot of metal tits everywhere like nipple titties sorry i love saying titties today I think it's the hormones. Please excuse me. I didn't think that I actually didn't think anyone was particularly exciting. And there's been a lot of controversy around it anyway, because Jeff Bezos has basically funded the whole thing or contributed 10 million. 10 million to the event. OK, to the event. So it's supposed to be this kind of like cultural phenomenon that is an amalgamation of like art and culture coming together.

26:41Louise: Anna Wintour is a very big presence it's hosted at the Met Museum but this year with Jeff being behind it it was I think a lot of people were saying it's basically like just full of tech bros because he got his own guest list a few people have boycotted it Meryl Streep being one of them yeah and Zendaya who just got engaged to Tom Holland which is the cutest thing ever they just got married didn't we drive past him in Richmond him and his brother lived there yeah yeah yeah yeah he was doing a remodel on his house wasn't it at the time he was outside back to the whole BAFTA things about people or the NTAs whatever the event is if there's a red carpet and press and pictures for me personally that wouldn't be the appeal I know that that's part of the experience where you might get some photos and they might go in the press but like for me there would have to be a bigger pool to want to go yeah for instance I went to the NTAs one year by myself but the pool was Sam on the red carpet being the host because he's your mate was my brother-in-law so i was like well this is quite fun i'll go and see him and hang out yeah and he and he invited me if i was invited by well let me put it this way if i was invited by some random brand yeah boohoo man come and sit on the table by myself i'd be like that's not enough of a pull for me to be there okay i don't care enough about boohoo man i care about sam so and what about performances though if there's people performing okay well yes but so much of it actually the entire thing is basically just a big fat publicity stunt isn't it it's just all pr yeah this is where i get it wrong it's all supporting designers that are probably paying you in some capacity okay where they're closed you're building a relationship and you're getting photographed and you want to be seen on a best dress list okay i couldn't give a fuck about that but yes cool that's what again though if everyone's boycotting that like how many other things are they also going to have to boycott because once you make a really solid stance on something you need to stick by it and then you'll probably realize that most of the people that are in positions of power are also supporting trump and then you're like cool i can never work with anyone again it's really hard to be the person that is gonna make the first move and then stand super strong trying to think of a celeb zendaya i don't know obviously but like she looks like someone that i'd really like yeah i think so too so the fact that she's decided to not go kind of to me i'm like yeah obviously you didn't want like she doesn't need to go to the met she doesn't need to conform to like all of this like hype and like you know she's like yeah but here's the other thing is like she's also got just got married so she's quite probably quite busy and she's probably got a lot of publicity elsewhere so sometimes it just doesn't work with people's schedules i don't know meryl streep she's just like can do no wrong she's just an icon like Anna Wintour apparently yeah who Ryan didn't actually know no I know who she is but I don't get it I don't get it no you actually said who the fuck is Anna Wintour no no no no I didn't say I know that because of whatever film we watched recently but what I don't get about that lady is the appeal and the attraction and what makes her such a global icon I don't get it you don't get it well she's worked in the same role for a really long time so she's basically been like editor-in-chief for British and American Vogue tell me about Anna Wintour So she's achieved so much for fashion.

29:56Louise: And also she is, I love the way she looks. Okay, tell me about the sunglasses. Which sounds so weird, but I just love her haircut. Tell me about the sunglasses, which I'll be honest with you, they're not particularly nice. They're just big fucking plastic black glasses. I actually can't believe you're saying this. This is sacrilege. She actually approved for me to go to Vogue World in Paris a couple of summers ago. She had to bet the guest list. And now I'm going to be vetoed. If you keep slacking your offer, I have to shut up. I know, I think you're great, but I'm trying to figure out what should I be doing to be more Anna Wintour?

30:28Louise: Okay, well let's bring you in a little wig. A little bob wig with a little fringe. She loves a big chunky necklace. She's got a real specific style. There's obviously more to this woman. Someone please tell me. Imagine being that powerful though. You've built up that reputation that people are just... It doesn't get much better than sitting next to Anna Wintour on a red carpet. Alright, let me tell you where my head's at with this right now. Last week by myself, I watched Devil Wears Prada, the original one, because it was coming out on the TV and I was like, I've never even seen it. I'm going to watch it.

31:01I obviously loved it, but I'm thinking of Anna Wintour as that woman in that who's like the editor-in-chief of that magazine.

31:08Louise: Yeah, that is it. Called Runway. Yes, well done, Ryan. Love educating the men out there. So that's how I'm visualising Anna Wintour, just some badass bitch. Yeah, let's get her on the pod. And I went to it, yeah. Would you ever boycott an event? Like the BAFTAs, for example? Like if Jeff Bezos was going to the BAFTAs, would you be like, nah, I'm out? Look, I mean, I... You'd be in. I can't lie. You'd be in. I've worked with him so far, so there wouldn't be much point in me boycotting it. All right, I'm trying to... Does that make me a terrible person? To some people, yeah. Will, yeah. I guess it's the thing, like you can't be loved by everybody.

31:55But is the excitement for an event like the BAFTA's, is it less about the event and more about getting the photo and potentially getting recognised for looking fabulous?

32:04Louise: I do, it is fun to dress up. It would be more fun if I had you there. But it's a networking thing as well, so it's interesting to go and meet other people that are in the same industry. I think it's definitely to get photographed in the right place at the right time, building a relationship with Anna Wintour, showing your alignment with her, hoping that maybe you could do, say you bring out a brand where every celebrity under the sun has got an alcohol brand and they might want some ad space in Vogue or under the Condé Nast umbrella. So it's just all, it's building a network of people. It's a relationship thing.

32:36Louise: So I sort of understand it. That's just business, isn't it? Yeah. Whether you like it or not is a different question. And I suppose like BAFTA is an important award in Britain. Like it was pretty mega when we won a BAFTA. People were shocked. Lots of people were very angry. I think it's great. I think it's great that you're going. I do. Yeah. If I got the invitation, I would have gone. Okay. Okay, nice. Now I don't feel so funny about it. It is, it's a day out. To be fair, would you rather be doing that or would you rather be cleaning Leo's bum? Actually, don't answer that. I know what you're going to say.

33:16Louise: Talking of Leo's bum, I actually read a really shocking statistic the other day that one in four children are sent to school before they're potty trained, which means that their teachers are having to change their nappies and then wipe their bums, and no one wants to be a teacher anymore. Well, that's a bit dramatic, but isn't that quite full on? I think a basic human right to teach your child before the age of four how to use the loo and how to wipe their bum. Sorry, did you say before the age of four? Yes. Before the age of four, you want them to learn how to wipe their bum? Yeah. You want a three-year-old to...

33:51What?

33:52Louise: Leo can wipe his own bum. Leo's not before four. He's four and a half. I kind of just got confused. Leo's four and a half before their five. Okay. Quite a big difference. Some people think that a child should be potty trained the moment that they can walk. So the moment they can walk to the loo, they should be able to go to the loo on their own. No. Well, no. Which is probably around one for most, but obviously you've got a late bloomer as well. I've never met someone who believes that, but that is wild. Yeah, oh my God. I think it was like Kate Ryan mentioned on someone's podcast that after three months, they were potty trained.

34:29Louise: Three months? And weren't in nappies anymore. No, someone's completely lying to you there. Can you remember when you were potty trained? No, not at all. So you don't know how old you are? No. Well, you haven't asked your parents. Actually, I haven't asked mine. So judgmental. I don't think my parents would even know the answer to that question. Surely they would. I bet your mum would. She's such a hands-on parent. Let's ask her. Well, my parents pretty much broke the back on the potty training for us with Leo. Because we went away for a week. We went to Ibiza around your birthday. And he went there to my grandpa, to his grandparents.

35:04And they got made up nappies in a week.

35:07Louise: It was quite convenient timing, to be honest. Daytime nappies. I knew that he was ready.

35:15Louise: because he kept taking the nappies off himself. So he was up for it. I think the summer is definitely the best time to potty train kids because they can be naked a lot more. And then if they have an accident, they're sort of in the garden, just like mincing around, less clothes to wash. So it made sense. I think he was about one and a half. And then, yeah, we went on our first trip away without Leo. and we went to Ibiza and it was over yours and Sam's birthdays. Yeah, and then actually I didn't pack any nappies down in the suitcase and just packed some big boy pants. It is a bit awkward when you're outside and if your child then is potty training and they need a poo, and you're like, cool, you're going to have to poo in public in a little lady butt.

35:58Louise: You have to open this thing up in the park and be like, no one watch, my child's having a poo. It's crazy. I agree. I don't know whether Leo's had any accident moments that have been really awkward. I feel like he's quite good with poo. he was actually like i feel like i went into nappies the moment he came up i started having it was actually kind of kind of awkward because nappies have nappy bags stoma bags have like stoma bags they're kind of so we've still got like a nappy bit i'm like i'll just put mine in there and utilize them i know it's not very glamorous he's never pooed the bed oh no he's never done that did you ever poo the bed no that's fucking not i actually remember when I was younger, I did once poo myself.

36:43Louise: Oh my god. It was really awkward. We used to have these intercoms at home, but they were like these massive phones and I had to call my parents downstairs and I was so nervous. Imagine my dad coming up. They were actually really good about it. I wasn't even that young. I feel like I was like nine. Imagine living in a house where you're just like, Dad, can you come up? It's like this massive brown phone. They were pretty good about it, to be honest. I feel like, you know, it's nice that poo's not a big deal in our household. But Leo's, you know, he's pretty good. Back to your question about what do I feel about school teachers wiping bums for five-year-olds.

37:23That's a raw deal.

37:28That is.

37:30Louise: 28 % of kids are going to reception unable to eat and drink on their own. That's like almost a third of children. All right, so you've got a large number of kids in reception who have got nappies on and they can't feed or drink themselves. Yeah. Okay, so you've asked me this because we're going to try and figure out why, I presume. I was just so shocked when I read those statistics. I couldn't wrap my head around how that is the case and why things have got worse. But maybe parents are just doing too much for their kids. Maybe it's like a bit of a cop out. They're like, oh, my child's crying and they're being a bit difficult.

38:11Louise: I can't be bothered with the hassle. So I'm just going to take the easy route. Like if your child sat there and they're not eating and they're like unable to cut the food on their own, a parent's just doing it for them. Is that does that feel easier? Maybe maybe it's because less people are having multiple kids. They've got more time to cut the food and feed their children instead of being really busy and overwhelmed. And like, OK, I'm dealing with the baby now. You've got to take care of yourself. all right here's one theory but this could get me in hot water but i think there's i think there's maybe fewer parents than there used to be who were comfortable in the acceptance of i'm a parent full stop as in like my job is to look after my child or my children and i'm saying parent this is not about mother or or dad this is this is not a men and women thing i think what happens now is is that you've got very career hungry ambitious parents who are maybe younger and something's got to give in that scenario maybe and it's these little moments of potty training and correct development with eating and drinking so it's a one of my thoughts is that it's because I think there's parents who don't parent like we used to when i say we used to i mean that doesn't that doesn't you know i mean i'm trying to not point anything this is definitely not like a male female mum dad thing this is not like a it's not that i can only i can only relate these things these moments to my own world which i think is probably quite small i i don't really see these real life real life representations of these stats but I think that at nursery, they would have flagged to us if Leo was still in nappies at three or four or even like two plus.

40:08Louise: It's part of the narrative that you have when your child is being looked after and there's a good communication between you as parents and the other caregivers for your child. So whether that's nursery or a bit of nannies or child minding, that sort of thing. like surely it's for someone to pick up on that that is not the behavioral norm so I don't know whether it's people that then are um maybe at home a lot and not exposed to a lot of other people that like aren't getting that feedback I don't I don't know because like if I hang out with any of my friends like we're all trying to hit those developmental milestones like it's one of the things we actually talk about and we talk about our kids a lot there's all there's there is also another theory I've got because even last night I did one of those like question stickers on my Instagram and some of them some of the questions were around what's parenting taught me what do you struggle most with but they were asking for advice on how to stay like free in their mind and calm and how do you keep up with you know jobs and commitments there and how do you stay in shape and how do you be a good dad and all these things and i kind of offered a little bit of advice but i'm no i'm no expert i'm just trying my best as well but here's a book that might help you and it was the um the books the book is called the scandy way of parenting i think it's called which is really leaning into this hands-off approach let them free play let them make their mistakes and tumble over and find their independence and find their feet and taste it and that sort of stuff yeah which i am a big fan of i'm not trying to sound like i'm um an expert on this being a dad for four and a half years i know how important it is to be present at meal times to be present at washing times whether that's teeth or bath or showers or and we were we were very hot on change the nappy when it's wet or dirty we were very hot on that we probably were a little bit too uh quick on that yeah and actually i think gee even mentioned like nappies and the technology now are so bloody advanced that the children don't really necessarily detect themselves when they're wet or soiled so it's not like it it's not like you've got a sort of tea towel and it's like heavy and sodden you know back in the day people honestly would have a loincloth right like a safety pin strapped around their nuts so then if you pooed and that like you'd really know about it it'd be like making a big mess and shaving everywhere and you would have to have that changed yeah imagine people dealing with that now like we're so used to things being very easy that we have become lazy yeah imagine having to like clean five loin cloths a day per child in in the sink because dishwasher dishwasher washing machines didn't even exist so you're like manually scrubbing all these cloths of course you're going to be wanting to get your kid out of that as quickly as possible like hey this is where to do it whereas I guess now like the convenience of nappies is so available is so good and um yeah people are probably like leaning on them a little bit too much and as you say people just can't be bothered to go through the hassle because it is a commitment like you've got to actually set aside the time people do like parents have to say okay this is when we're starting because you can't kind of start it's not one of those things where you go okay we're going to see how it goes with the potty training you need to commit and you need to all be on the same page and you basically don't stop until your child gets there and that's probably a little rough like some people back back down they're like oh no we're not ready i'm like you just got to keep going i agree with what you said about the tech thing i think that people are so distracted these days with screens that they can't be bothered to dedicate the time what do you think could be done to rectify those stats do you think it's on the parents do you think it's on the teachers to be like you can't send your kids unless they're developmentally ready for this next step do you think the government should issue some extra support i don't know should we make nappies free i don't know no well that will have the reverse effect people will be in nappies for life um it's a really good question i think even by talking about this podcast it's actually quite good to raise awareness um i think the responsibility lies fully on the parents i'm going to be honest like i don't think it's a teacher's problem i don't i don't i really don't think that teachers when they're doing their teacher training and they're signing up to go into that job that is something that they should even have to think about

44:45Louise: Ryan I've got to listen to a question for you I'm a dad and I know you wanted more dads writing in oh you've got perfect you've got my attention I know you have a son with Leo but I have a daughter and I don't know which toilet to take her in when it's just me and her what would you do if you had a daughter do you take her into the men's bathroom or go into the women's bless him what a sweet question that is the sweetest question ever the answer is obviously in my mind but it's very sweet that he's he's in a dilemma over that. If I had a daughter, I'd take her with me into the men's and I'd make sure that they're out of the way and we'd go into the cubicle and we'd do our thing and get out.

45:25But I can't actually move past how sweet that is.

45:28Louise: Isn't that sweet? Yeah. I suppose the thing is, it's like children are allowed probably in most bathrooms, whereas grownups aren't. Correct. So if a man walked into the ladies, even if they did have a daughter, I'd be like, that's really awkward. What are you doing in here? Yeah. But I get actually the, I get like the sentiment behind it because in the same way, like he probably doesn't want to expose his cute little daughter to loads of wee-wees, as we call them with Leo. Like boys wee-wees in the male bathroom. Yeah. Aw. Do you see many guys going into the gents with their children? I've definitely seen it, yeah.

46:07I've seen it. And it's not something that I thought was unusual or sort of inappropriate in any way.

46:12Louise: I feel like my dad never took me to the loo because we lived in a really ridiculous time. As if I'm literally generations of 36 where my dad has never wiped a baby's bum before. And so he was not taking me to the loo. But I do have memories of being around urinals when I was younger and finding it really strange. And the smell is not great. Correct. Also, it's really weird, this concept of guys being able to go to the loo in front of one another and girls just not. So imagine if as girls we all waddles up to a urinal and did a front wee in front of each other, seeing everyone's privates. Like, as guys, is that not so...

46:54Louise: There's so many things that I find intriguing about a men's bathroom. First of all, if you need to do a poo, it's so obvious because you have to go into the closed door bit. Yeah. So is that something that guys judge? it's a slightly awkward exchange yeah because you walk in and like you for that bit yeah yeah like the airport lose oh mate when you got like that pre-flight urge to like oh gosh i'm gonna have to i'm gonna have to queue up i'm gonna have to queue up and there's no chat between all the blokes in the queue and it's like oh mate we're i'm gonna have to follow your stinking ass into that cubicle it's like it's the worst you don't want to go on the airplane the tiny loo it's the worst moment of the whole trip that is that morning in the airport so there's basically a line of urinals and then there's maybe like two or three cubicles and if everyone's curing you're like we obviously need shit yeah yeah and you you basically hold your breath for the entire time that's so funny so at least as women we get like to disguise whatever we're up to well you do that's right it's not so obvious you get to but then the other thing if like what's the etiquette if okay so if there's 10 urinals, are you, are you going, like, do you always have like a feng shui with the urinals where you choose to go to like the third one in?

48:10Louise: Do you have like a lucky number? Oh, I see. Well, I'm never going in the middle. I'm never going in the middle. No, do weird people go in the middle? you're just offering up either, either a left or right partner. At least if you tuck yourself into one corner, you're just like, okay, well, I can manage one bloke to the side of me. I don't want to be sandwiched by two dicks. that's not the territory you want to be in. In fact, if someone goes to the middle urinal, I'm like, what? That's just weird, mate. Weird, or you've got a massive knob and you want us all to know. So it's an end of the row kind of choice.

48:44Well, it doesn't have to be the end end, but it's just not middle.

48:46Louise: That's so interesting. I wish I could be you for like 24 hours. With Leo now, I now hold him up. Has he gone to the urinal? I hold him like that. So his bum is in my hand there and I hold him. Do you make sure that his willy doesn't touch the ceramic? Oh my God. He doesn't touch a single thing in there. Okay, nice. Yeah, I'm quite hot on that as well. I don't want him touching this. If he does need a poo as well, I use my foot to lift the lid. Do you? Yeah. Nice. Never hands. Sometimes the problem is, is Leo thinks he never needs to wash his hands now because he'll be like, I didn't touch anything.

49:19Well, this morning he wiped his own bum and I was like, well, first of all, dope, but let's wash your hands. He was like, there's no poo on them.

49:30he did say that oh that's by the way that's the first time ever i've seen him wipe his own bum

49:36Louise: today and does he do front to back we spoke about this loads when i did i don't know he actually he's like can you get out and i was like fair fair oh cuteness but yeah men's bathrooms pretty awful. But no, that's a nice question. Is there any more from blokes, actually? I feel like I'm ready for a Q &A. Maybe we could, like, do a Q &A episode where we just spitfire. Spitfire, isn't that an aeroplane? Spitfire, spit. We could just fire some questions at each other and then answer them. So if you guys have any, please do write them in. You can contact us and the team at hsss at slproductions.co.uk or Instagram DM yeah please do any questions slide in that'd be epic I'd actually love that well thank you guys so much for listening it's been a bit of a varied one this week thank you for being super patient with us especially at the beginning when we spoke about some quite sensitive topics it's actually really hard to I didn't realise quite how hard it was going to be to talk about our fertility journey even though we kind of hate the name journey um because it's feels too positive too easy um in real time i uh thank you for giving us thank you ryan for giving me the safe space thanks for being honest and and hopefully things will feel a little bit more positive when we catch up next week and a bit lighter thanks very much ciao guys i'm gonna go and download the app where I can religiously track the embryo splitting now.

51:15Louise: Not a joke. So I'm super excited.