Anna Williamson Gives Us a Therapy Session

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0:40Louise: Hey guys, welcome back to He Said She Said, your weekly podcast hosted by Louise Thompson and... Me, Ryan. So this episode feels pretty special because today we're joined by our first ever non-family guest. Isn't that amazing? I didn't know that. Did you not know that? No, I didn't. Well, I mean, technically, guys, I am family. I mean, your brother, Louise, is sort of some sort of extension of my umbilical cord, I think. And, you know, we've become family with our uniting together around birth trauma. And Ryan, that means just by proxy, you know, we are brother and sister. So you are welcome. We are all a family.

1:20Louise: So welcome, everybody. Anna Williamson, who's part of the family. Anna Thompson or Anna Middleton. Anna Thompson. So I'd like to go for that. We can adopt you. Good, good entry. We're so happy to have you here. There's so much to talk about. I do feel like I've known you forever. But we only officially met when you did come along to the debate that was hosted in Parliament a couple of months ago in support of trying to appoint a maternity commissioner. What a triumph of a day that was, honestly. I mean, I don't know how... Oh, I know you obviously talk about it a lot, but I don't know if anyone's actually talked about it from witnessing it, which I was there in that room with those 20 other people that were at it and you were there as well, Ryan.

2:00Louise: Yeah, no. Supportive. You guys were actually sat next to each other and Ryan didn't recognise you as the Anna Williamson so when you were handing him sweets. It was such a confusing day for me. I feel like I need to give you an apology because I was like, I didn't realise I was Anna. Because I think I was just so like, no, it wasn't rude but you were being so sweet offering me sweeties and I was like, I don't think we can do that here, dude. And you kept like offering them to me. I was like, trying to like tune into the, Can we just clarify? I sound like someone really dodgy, like forcing you to be.

2:26No, no, no, no. No, I did. I did. I don't know. Classic mum hamburger. I loved it. We were in there a long time. You stayed longer than me. I did stay longer. You had to go and pick up Leo. And I was like, I don't know. I just, I was starting to get that sort of growl in the stomach. So I thought, can I bust out a cheeky bag of Haribo out of my bag? So funny. And then I felt rude not offering you a sweet. No, I loved it. And then I sort of pushed those sweets on you a little bit. I should have accepted them. I wish I had. We've all seen the 1980s adverts. don't accept sweets from strangers and technically at that point i was a stranger to you so so there we go well i didn't you poker face that well yeah well yeah it was i didn't it was a tough day it was kind of it was an amazing day and you're right to say it's a triumph but for me it was like my first time in that environment first time hearing my family being referenced in that way yeah so if i was fidgeting around and sweating i'm sorry for that as well every credit to you because i hadn't really thought of it actually in that magnitude and i think as as we say we're always campaigning around our experiences of birth trauma Louise um but I we know and you'll know obviously Louise campaigning but men men the birth partners um suffer just as much you know in in a different way and are often completely ignored and trivialized and I admit I did that to my husband after my first birth yeah he because I was angry with everybody and I was definitely angry with him for not having a broken genitalia you know but it's not till afterwards you kind of go actually you poor bastard you you literally thought your wife and your kid was about to die like a jet that's really upsetting and then him feeling silenced as in I don't think I can bring this up because it feels like it wasn't me but but it's but it's really hard and actually I hadn't really thought of that when we were in that room and and Louise I mean gosh I've as you say for someone I've only really just met personally but for like I've known forever I hope you don't mind me sounding a bit cheesy but I was so proud of you because I thought god to sit there in the houses of parliament like this is legacy shit yeah you know and sit there and have as you say your name your family's name your experiences talked about with the people that make the laws of this country I thought god what what a moment for you and every credit to you for banging that drum because so many people don't need to bother and to bother takes time and effort and passion and that is something that well I've been doing for years too but you particularly are doing and and thank thank god for you really well thank god for you too and we're doing it together

4:48Louise: babes i'm gonna do a lot more of it yeah we are we're not going away anyway you can't help can you when you start doing a campaign things is for anybody when you really care about something it's why i got into therapy all these years ago because of my own experiences with poor mental health when you come at something from a personal experience you you get the bit between your teeth yeah and then when you start to realize that there are so many people that don't have a voice or don't have a platform to have a voice or don't know how to you then become so passionate about going god if i just i don't i want to be this person to help people you know and to kind of make these things you know things that shouldn't be happening uh happen you know and i think that's what's what drives all of us really well ryan and i actually were speaking about the podcast this morning he said i really want to ask anna about that exact point that you were someone that really suffered with anxiety before and i was like let's keep it light and frothy so i'm like where do we go because i want to talk about salmon let's go dating and then i also want to talk about the serious stuff after this is what we do on luanna we can take it right down we can talk about mental breakdowns until the cows come home but we can also talk about farts and badgers so i mean we'll we'll take it wherever you want to go let's go down the celebs go dating route and then and then we'll find some time for the uh yes you want to talk about yeah um so celebs go dating has obviously come out sam and pete met on celebs go dating which is i don't think i knew that until this morning i'll be honest didn't you i actually did some youtube research and i actually found it really funny i feel like sam was at his best on that show maybe you've got a different view yeah no he was he was great what is there anything that you saw or you've witnessed that you don't think that we know about sam oh what a question well you've seen it's quite an intimate show yeah very intimate show and um and actually that was my first series how many series have you done 12 oh wow um but that was my first series um i came in and the boys so it was i always so really the so the boys have been such a part of the boys have been such a part of that chapter of my life because it was my new role on Celebs Go Dating as one of the dating coaches slash hosts.

7:00So I was obviously incredibly nervous and feeling the pressure coming in on day one. And then I always, I will never forget it. It's kind of like a memory, I think, that will just be printed in my brain until the day. I'll be on my deathbed and I'll be thinking about those bloody two coming into that room, I think. And I remember sitting in this room. We had the setup we'd had. We were going to have like each celebrity one at a time was going to come into the room. Paul and I were there at the table. Did you know Paul before? No. No. So Paul and Tom were new to me as well. And we'd had a very rushed meet and greet ourselves only the week before.

7:37So it was all very, very quick and new. And I mean, I'm so blessed because Paul and Tom are coming into this whole environment, coming into an established show already. And Paul had only just done a series himself anyway. Tom had been in there since the beginning. And I mean, those boys, I mean, they are my brothers. you know they're my best mates as one of the brothers and they just took me straight away and we all just kind of ran with it but I was sitting in there and then um who came in oh it was Pete so and on that series as well we had uh Kerry Katona uh who I adore Kerry she's she's a great friend still she's just done another series of this successfully yeah come back again lots of people go back again returners yeah well Sam was a returner and hasn't Pete done it like four times as well he said it three times and sam actually sam was a returner on that one so he had done it i think series one and this was series six series one or two he'd done uh when i wasn't there and so he'd come back as our one of our first returners so i remember sitting in here i don't know who who came in first i can't actually remember now it's a great series that one and then pete came in uh i remember he sat down next to me and then say obviously you know him well and uh he was very much in that pete the pirate face yeah the love rat i mean he's had a transformation over the years guys he's now all lovely and vulnerable ish you know yeah so is sam and that's sam many many many many transformation i remember he was sitting i always remember it was sitting next to me i remember just feeling the eyes and those that know him know the pete wicks eyes just stare you know the intense eyes and depending on what end of louise likes it yeah there's a running

9:12Louise: joke that i fancy pete which i don't that would be really awkward he definitely you know he had that sort of back then though the pete kind of avoidant cold shoulder ice sort of ice king kind of thing but i remember thinking you're all right you are there's something about you you're going to be brilliant to work with fast forward eight years whatever adore that boy more than anything And then your brother came in last, which can only be described as this Andrex puppy, flew into the room. I think knocked a chair over in his haste to get round everybody. And I remember seeing Pete look at Sam. And this is bearing in mind one of the first, well, apparently Sam said he'd met Pete before, but Pete maintains he's never met Sam before at this point.

9:56Savage. Savage. No, I've never met him before. I remember Pete looking at Sam and thinking, I don't know if he even said it out loud, but it was like, what the fuck? You know, when this guy comes in and it was the most, it was such a wonderful series, both completely different, but completely wonderful. And what happened on that show? You know, I feel very, very fortunate and very proud to have witnessed sort of the birth of what the boys have become now as Sam and Pete, Pete and Sam. because I saw that friendship and that brotherhood start and the infancy. And I saw the moment it pivoted and it changed from Pete thinking that Sam was just irritating and Sam just being obsessed with Pete and wanting to make him his best friend.

10:41And I saw it change. And really for both of them, actually, where Pete had his back, there was a speed dating event, which we had as part of the show, one of the format points. And for all intents and purposes, because I wasn't there, actually, the agents weren't there at this point um this girl sort of mugged sam off a bit to to but was but made sam believe she was interested but actually she was interested in pete playing that old game that i love triangle very familiar yeah and in that moment bear in mind they didn't know each other at this point you know they were just two guys that were kind of thrown in together on a dating show taking a paycheck but something in p went nah that's not okay because this guy's actually really open and really vulnerable and you're going to make him look like a tit and I don't think that's fair and he stepped in as to what we now know is that brotherhood Pete was just like now actually you know what I've got this dude's back and that's really where it all started nice that was so beautiful you know I actually didn't know that yeah it was lovely and I remember Pete sort of kindly but firmly called this situation out with this girl um and i remember if i remember rightly that whole sort of episode ended with the two of them i think sam sort of jumped on pete's back and that classic yeah he doesn't mind but pete's sort of saying no do you know what you know what though i've got your back and then it really turned into pete kind of sort of half mentoring sam as well through the rest of the series when it came to discerning whether a girl was uh worth it or not for him and then they just became so sort of they became each other's wingman on a date really and then i think as agents we gave the advice to sound to be a bit more pete and pete be a bit more sam in various ways and so i think we're probably to blame for the fact they took that quite literally and then the series ended and it was we could all see this beautiful bond that had happened between the two of them and i remember us saying you know there's there's something in you too like this is such and then i think sam just kept pounding pete afterwards and then it became no that's exactly what i did do you think

12:40Louise: that like opposites do attract for sure yeah because i feel i feel like we're quite opposite yes and we kind of adopted the same bit of advice in that when we met we did absorb other people each other's personality traits is that the same for you and your husband uh yeah very much so and i think um not knowing the ins and outs of your relationship but i would imagine though that you probably have core values that are very much aligned and something that absolutely connected you um that wasn't so much at face value yeah my husband and i um yeah we're very very different people my husband is you've got my attention go we're chalk and cheese yeah is he a personal trainer as well yeah i love that we have so much in common that we have so much in common i pursued him did he train we were client of his yeah you were good tell us more so bad it's like we've been in it now together nearly 12 years uh but it's i kind of killed his career i think when it came i didn't really know he's doing very well for himself um but i because he took him off the market he was such well yeah because he was such a professional um and still is i'd like to point out um i'm really hoping he's not shagging any of his clients um but but he was such a professional that we were very much, yeah, client and trainer.

14:02And was that what you were? Yeah, we were the same. We were exactly the same.

14:07Louise: Stop it. I took him off the market too. Yeah, totally. We are family. We are family. We are the same person. We had shitty births. We've hugged our boyfriends. We've both got a podcast. We've got kids. I've never met somebody else that shagged their PT and ended up getting with them. Who is his cousin? Did the same thing? My cousin did as well. Her tennis coach. I think there's like a blueprint for shagging your PT and taking them off the market. I think they're good people, PTs. And as Ryan and I often speak about, a lot of like personal training does feel like you're... Are you speaking from experience?

14:43Louise: I'm not speaking from experience because I've never been a PT and I see a really, really bad one. He's actually just started to train me at some point. I tried to train him. But you explain it as... You're almost like a therapist. It does feel that way. Yeah, your husband might be able to relate to this. Completely relate. You become much more than just a trainer. Like Ryan was best friends with all of his clients. He ended up even giving like one of his clients massages, like foot massages. Well, yeah. That's a slightly different conversation. That had to stop. And there were a few other things that had to stop.

15:13Well, I'll tell you something that I've never actually ever confessed. Probably not even to him. It was when we were just client and PT and he was very good at doing assisted stretching. after a session this is so funny so I remember um and we'd kind of like we were because he got me in shape for a show I was doing at the time so it was quite intense training and I remember thinking oh you know but I had I was I was sort of coming I'd just come out of a quite long-term relationship so he genuinely wasn't looking elsewhere at all and he was Mr. Professional like he was absolute cold as ice he's Sicilian he can just but he can be quite um as I've learned being married to a Sicilian for 12 years, you know, very, and I'm generalizing here and I would like to apologize to any other Italians and Sicilians generalizing, but can be on one moment incredibly romantic and demonstrative and cry and emotional.

16:08But on the other hand, like you think he's arguing with someone, he's just asking someone the waiter some way, you know, quite direct and quite, you know, can sit back as quite an avoider. Well, I mean, that to me was bloody red rag to a bull. I mean, here I am with this hot dude training me and I'm, you know, I'm wearing a sexy gym diving show called Splash. Oh, that one? Yeah.

16:31Louise: Tom Dealey? Yeah, sick. You did that? Yes. Yeah. Cool. Only girl off the 10 metre board, guys. Come on. Yeah, well, only because I shit myself, not wanting to lose face on live telly. Let me tell you, don't do that. It was a stupid idea. Although I did really enjoy it. But so as I'm doing this intense training, and I remember afterwards, oh, everything's hurting a bit. You know, I've been diving, everything. So he did his sets of stretching with all his clients, I'd like to point out, women and men. I know how this goes. You know how this goes? Well, when my then PT, my now husband of maybe 12 years, was doing my assisted stretching, wow.

17:05It was a muscular leg in the face. And as he's leaning over and he's going, and breathe in and breathe out. And then he's, you know, stretching you more and that leg's going up around my leg and he's practically on me and I'm feeling that bicep. I'm smelling that pheromone. Well, that was it, guys. That was it. And then, to add insult to injury, ice. it was like I'll see you next week yeah great left you wanting more left you wanting more I had a few dreams guys I'm not gonna lie and then who made the first move

17:32Louise: me yeah shame it's actually the same I asked was it the same was it yeah I did the assisted stretching as well I literally like legs are Kimbo leg up in the face Ryan's face is here we're basically in love at that point I asked him on a date Sanander's tell me I want to know from your perspective now Ryan in that moment because my husband still won't break You can't ask me this. Because he won't break. He's still, even now, will not. Because now, as his annoying wife, I sit back out in the gym. That's why he doesn't. Everyone goes, why doesn't your husband train me? I'm like, are you mad? We're married.

18:03Like, that's a divorce waiting to happen. Because I go in. He's in professional mode the minute he steps into a gym. I then dick around, like, put my finger up his bum and, like, you know, try and, like, you know, do the dry hump going past him. And he's just like, Annie, you're such a dick. You're an idiot. Go away. And it really annoys him. I try and snog him. And, like, he hates it. That's why we just don't do it. But I want to know, I want to know at which point when you were doing that assisted stretch on your now woman, were you, was any part of you thinking, God, this woman's fit. I really want her.

18:33I reckon, do you know what? That's such a good question.

18:36Louise: Thank you for asking that. I've never asked. Asking for a friend. You've got me on the ropes. I reckon the thing that probably got me a little bit hot in that room was when we did the prowler and I got a shot of your bum and I was like, oh dear God, this is this is quite uh difficult to handle i think have you ever had a boner in the gym fucking hell just blast the door open on this on this topic uh answer it ryan oh god yes i would have made you answer that yeah yeah you would that's very sweaty everybody go watch on youtube did you get aroused training louise yes have you ever got aroused training anybody else yes but before you but before you you basically shut my career down in that sense he doesn't have a pt career in fact i'd actually quite like you to start training again and being the professional sicilian in the gym so i can go and poke my finger up your bum and have a fun time i didn't know i'm actually gonna hook you up my husband alex oh then what's coming away in any way you wish he's a very gentle lover uh i no i think because say i shut his career down Well, I think he feels like a little bit of that because he's just like, Anna, every time you bring this up, it's like, oh.

19:47And I'm like, oh, we're over that, babes. We're in 12 years now. If anything, you're actually doing his career a massive favour.

19:52Louise: Like girls are going to be throwing themselves at him. Exactly. It's all good. I'm going to hook you up with him now. I think you need to count as each other. I feel like I want to ask him a lot of questions about this. We definitely do. And other things. I would say actually being, we were married 11, together 12. It was very quick. Sort of once things were off, we were off um and i think i became a bit of a bunny boy about when to get pregnant really quickly and then we were like oh shit that happened really quick did you how quick uh within a month of being married wow yeah love that yeah um took a long longer actually for the second one i think probably because conception sex went rapidly downhill once you've got you know one child and marriage under your belt um yeah do you know what this is really interesting i often relate back to this and we had a big conversation about this on our recent series of celebs go dating um around myself and my co-agents who are also married as well in failure long-term marriages and still look at Alex my husband and I am as attracted to him as as I was when I first met him it's different I think it every relationship segues I mean we've had so much history now you know we have ups and we've had so many ups and downs over the years and we now have children you know there's been periods of our time where I'm sure we've hated each other not really but you know there's a fine line between love and hate you know really hard times and i think that's why i'm very proud to be very honest and open about that but yeah when it comes down to it we always say and it's really important for us to carve out date nights or weekends and things like that but we have a little holiday coming up just us two end of the year which do you think things like this are quite key in order to so important okay tell me more tell me more so important because we are going to morocco cool um and it's rare we leave the children we never really like to leave the children we always liked it's me i'm just an anxious honey but i was like ideally one of us to be in the country at least um and they're now eight eight and six uh nine and six yeah yeah yeah um but you know we're really lucky with our support system we've got um in-laws and my parents and we you know we have child minors as well and i think i'm really honest about that too it really does take a village it takes one hell of a paid village half the time you know i couldn't sustained both alex and i freelancers were everywhere our weeks are never the same and for me it's always been the children always come first that as long as they're settled and happy and feel secure everything else comes in so we've worked really hard to get that sort of core team so to speak in place to look after the children um but yeah it's really important that you don't neglect your relationship and your marriage and we definitely i think the hardest times that we've had as a in a relationship and he won't mind me saying this he's really open too but when we forget to look after each other which has happened loads we know we have to kick back in and we have to communicate and we have to have those hard conversations is he a naturally good communicator as a man um he never used to be and i probably wasn't either what was the turning point for him do you know or for you i would say for him um losing his dad his dad passed away quite soon into our relationship actually which um is devastating for anybody but i think nobody from what i see living with someone that went through what i would class as complex grief it was it was a shock death um that for him i know changed everything because as a lot of people perhaps listening as well now will know that and unfortunately grief is something that we will all go through we can all identify with at some point and it's not linear the grieving process and i I think what isn't often talked about enough, and he won't mind me talking about this, is the impact that grief can have on a relationship.

23:29Withdrawing, the anger, the feeling alone. And I can sort of relate a bit to it with, I don't know about you, Louise, but when I was going through birth trauma, a bit of the same. It was just another feeling of feeling disassociated and detached and just pissed off with everybody else. Absolutely. And not wanting to really connect. And so I think when those big life moments happen, and working through them is really important. But to your point, Ryan, around spending time together is so important. And we realise sometimes it's the simplest things that, and the children are a little bit older now as well, where they are happy for us to not be here.

24:03I think that was quite key for me to feel I had the permission almost to go and enjoy time. But even if it's just a night or something, but to reconnect, it's everything for our relationship because we were putting it so far at the bottom of priorities as so many people do. yeah and when you take that moment to actually reconnect we we remember us going away and we do it all the time we actually really like each other yeah you stop being reminded yourself yeah you stop being just like alex and anna the mom the dad the you know being all things to all people clients you actually just become anna and alex two people that decided to get married because actually we're friends not enemies and i think often we forget that and we treat our partner as our enemy not as our friend you know the person who should be our champion and we champion back and I think often what I've realized about my own marriage is sometimes the things that we fell in love with our partner for are the things we end up weaponizing against them yeah um my husband like I say can be very direct um I love that you know when I first met him and that yet then when you get into my thing why is he not why is he not just sort of been a pushover when I want him just to do something I want him to do no he's holding his ground and I think my independence as he says was something that really attracted him to me but then i guess several years into a marriage thinking oh god well where you know where is that yeah yeah totally yeah and and you know sometimes i think it's very very quick to start to be frustrated about the things that we actually fell in love with that person for can i ask you which which one of you sort of caught your relationship in that moment and and sort of instigated the idea of we really need to reconnect as alex and anna was it something you both caught at the same time yeah i'm gonna be honest with you here actually is I'm the relationship coach but it's my husband and I think sometimes it's um when you're so in it yourself and I like to think I practice what I preach but I'm not stubborn enough to realize that you need an outside lens sometimes to tell you what you can't see in front of you and I know and I love love languages not everyone's into them but I think they're fantastic in relationships they're a good tool I wouldn't say they're verbatim I think they're a good tool and my husband's is quality time um mine's acts of service you know him just doing little mundane things for me is everything but for him it is quality time and he and he was really articulate with me he said i just feel so at the bottom priority list it feels like you have time for everybody else there's a knowing look between you very relatable but he's like you have time for it feels like you know you have time for everything i'm like well i don't i don't for god you must be joking i live with you i'm married to you i'm saying something you know what are you talking about and he's like but it feels like you don't have time for me it feels like there's so many other people ahead of me and i just want your bloody time without that bloody phone or your agent ringing or a friend needing you i just want you or even the kids asking for me he's like i just want you that's exactly this is like one of those like i feel like a mirror like a match like a like a first day's matchup moment like this is the perfect guests to have on this podcast.

27:01What the hell is happening? I'm coming back. It's a throuple, guys. We have format change here. It's a throuple. Is it something that you two can relate to then? Massively. We've had a really recent conversation,

27:11Louise: like a week ago. I said to Louise, and I think it was a metaphor, but there's a lot of like literal meaning to it. I said that I feel like I'm in the spare room in our relationship. I'm just kind of like, Leo and the dogs are ahead of me in every situation. The work's ahead of me. she's blasting through her own stuff and I'm just in the spare room rattling around so that is maybe a little bit of a vulnerable confession from us but yeah it's really interesting to hear and I've got so many questions I'm going to have to hold back because it's not an interview but one of the things that we so we had like quite a serious chat actually last week where we had to allocate some time I actually had to move some work stuff like tell the girls that I work with not to come in sort of like really carve out like half a day to get into it and go there and get just lay everything on the table and let all the emotions come out and there were lots of tears but ryan expressed that he'd felt like a bit of a spare part and he wasn't being prioritized and i suppose i hadn't realized that i'd been prioritizing the things that feel easy to me and come easily easy to me and especially i think recovering from all of the trauma sometimes things in the home can feel quite heavy so I just prioritize work to be completely honest and things you can control things that I can control and obviously you can't control other people as much as you can control your work and and it was I was really grateful though that Ryan had highlighted this and we thought okay we need a big fat reset so we almost created this metaphorical button and we just did a hard reset we were like tomorrow morning we're going to wake up we're going to like each other again we're going to be kind to each other we're going to do little acts of service really put a lot of effort in and respect each other because I think a lot of the respect had gone and I completely relate to what you were saying but your vulnerability around this is really important because you are echoing I've just told you this is exactly in my marriage yeah you've said that so how many people listening to this now can also really relate to this and I think and I and it's because when we have that constant our partner when that person is there every single day we have intertwined finances everything else we do not intentionally but take them for granted and we just accept that they will always be there so we start losing the um the feeling the need to prioritize which is why dating is so exciting because you're not with living with that person at the time it's far more exciting but it takes a lot of work and i really admire you both for sitting down and doing that and these are the conversations as the relationship code these are the conversations that couples should be having all the time all the check-ins because without it the cracks start to grow they get bigger they get bigger resentment starts to kick in and and absolutely that's happened with with you know with our relationship over the time until you just go back to basics again and go what do i need and what do you need and how can i help you and i think to your point i think yeah and it's and it's that's the thing it's strange what can i do to help you i was resenting his behavioral things yeah i just remembered it the things that I fell in love with him for so his his sensitivity his calmness his slowness being totally the opposite of me I really resented that right right and I think that's really honest to say that because we often do we often then flip that round and we flip the narrative but I think when we life is complex we go through things and then we cling to things which make us feel content in control whole valued give us purpose and i can identify with you louise around and my husband's had the same challenges around my work i love my work work is my happy place it was the place i went back to when i had birth trauma because it was what i knew i could do and it actually healed me and healed me as a mother and i and this is he's the my biggest cheerleader my biggest supporter in everything i do but i think we often then seek out if there are sort of less fun unsexy things going on in our lives in our relationships perhaps we then cling to the more fun things the things that we can plow into that give us a bit more purpose a bit more meaning um so i can really relate to that as well but i i can absolutely relate to where you're feeling ryan and i think that's really important and that's why date nights or date there's a really nice rule which um i mean there's always kind of rules and fads going on but the 777 seven uh so as a so as a couple if you want to try and keep that quality time together just to just to decompress and do whatever doesn't have to be snazzy doesn't have to be expensive but it's every seven go on a date every seven days now that date could just be like you said morning coffee sometimes we just go for a brekkie we've got like a local farm shop we're going for a little brekkie after the school run you know even that we used to do that didn't we every wednesday yeah we tried friday yeah well i know it just gets kicked it gets kicked down the road And freelancers, this is what we should be doing as freelancers.

31:59So we did used to carve out Fridays as our days. Well, that long went whistling down the wind. And actually, we need to start bringing those back in. But kind of if you follow the 777 rule, it's every seven days go on a date. Every seven weeks go on maybe a little overnighter, if you can, or a bit more of a date night or that kind of thing. And then every seven months go on a little mini break or a little holiday. And that can be a nice way. And you can diarise that. And those are real check-in points. And I always say in relationships, it sounds really unsexy, but diarising your couple time as you would an important doctor's appointment or an important work event or something like that.

32:38And always coming back to the why. Why am I doing this? Because my relationship needs to be fed. It needs to be nurtured. Relationship that is stagnant is in a dangerous place. I know that myself being in a relationship but also coaching many couples relationships keep needing to be fueled to be watered and to keep thriving that doesn't mean that we won't have setbacks and moments where it's tough and it's difficult but that doesn't mean you're not thriving it means that you are becoming more emotionally mature more emotionally intimate and you are able to have these big conversations reset and move on and all that is doing is just adding another layer that is showing you that as a couple you are we were talking about doing the work you know but but you are you're making that relationship more and more resilient i mean christ you two have been through more in your relationship from what i know from and just just from an outside lens that i think i know many people have been through and and that is not to be underplayed and the fact that you can both sit here and work together as well and going through your your very personal private journey as well that you are takes an enormous amount of strength and it would be kind of weird if you didn't have moments of uh shit you know what's going on it is reassuring

33:48Louise: i actually think that that's a really smart idea because we are is that your technique sometimes you have to plan no i nicked it uh yeah but but everyone nicks everything yeah i just it was just what i mean there's always strategies and techniques that are floating around and i just i just quite liked the diary out i was listening to you hard at that point yeah what do i do what do i do what do i do i give another technique oh go on things were on the numerical technique very quick and easy one but again just when like just that's what i thought about it when you said about you were feeling a bit pissed off and say stuck to the spare room my husband can relate to that and then i kicked back and well i've got the fucking kids no one's winning no one's winning actually that is and he will tell you this we were the biggest pivot for our relationship was neither of us need to win and the minute you have that moment of no one needs to be a winner in this right now because you just get stuck in this bullshit cycle of any bit defensiveness it just doesn't work that's probably the best bit of advice i had from a friend of mine who's a bit older but he said years back he's like just let go of the need to be right you just don't need to be right you don't need to prove that you're right just accept and sit with it yeah exactly that accept it just even if i think if say you're my husband right now and i thought you said i just know oh shit you know what i'll just go fine but i'll accept that that's how you feel right now and i'll just sit with that because i don't need to counter argue that you don't need me to counter argue that i can still come over and go i don't agree with that but i can respect you over there for that but try the 555 rule okay we'll just while i'm on the numbers yeah listen to each other uninterrupted for five minutes okay so take and turn so you speak about everything you want to speak about five minutes i'll speak first okay we have a problem i talk too much i'm not a good listener i need your help well we'll work on this if you need to if you need to find it out on who speaks first flip a coin okay great idea let's just do that so pragmatic and then and then no one's arguing about who then got to speak first flip a coin do it that way but you speak for five minutes and you don't interrupt at all right you literally zip it easy but five minutes and then you flip it back you speak for five minutes okay and then pillow talk yeah pillow talk yeah could be but what you need to do then as well is reflect back what you have heard this is a very common couples counseling technique once you've spoken you reflect back what you've heard okay not what you've interpreted what you've actually heard so five minutes five minutes uninterrupted and then the last five minutes is then collaboratively sharing that that's where you share the learnings what you've heard and coming up with some sort of plan reflections on on how that conversation's gone and just having those if you're in a if you are in a sort of state of conflict you've just naffed off with each other um that can be a really good way of kind of formalizing it or giving a little bit of a framework because i know what it's like when i'm tired knackered overworked or so is it's we're just we're all over the place yeah you know and then if you turn to go right let's just implement this yeah and then we'll just get through it so i actually read a stat the other day so this was from a 2021 study and it found that 20 percent of couples break up within the first year of a child's life and i'm wondering i mean which is shocking honestly i was like mortified when i heard that and i feel as though both of those techniques would be really helpful and encouraging couples to have the difficult conversations that might prevent them from splitting up.

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38:28yeah yeah that is a statistic that sadly has been trotted out for a long time yeah has it one in five uh yeah couples break up in the first 12 months and I see it all over social media now

38:38Louise: as well a lot of people in our industry um it really makes me question why I mean I suppose most is it half of relationships now end in divorce yep yep one yeah one in two I think look I think breakup divorce absolutely is an option and no one should ever stay in a relationship where they don't feel respected uh where they're not safe absolutely but I also hugely advocate not throwing in the towel right at the beginning um there's so much that can be done and I'm sure people be screaming me again but I know but I know this anecdotally I know it in my own relationship same you know my god my husband and i can equally have thrown the towel in on many occasions you know over the years and it's hard work to stay in a marriage but the rewards are so great if you can work through those moments and this is the thing no one teaches us how to be in relationships we don't go to school no one teaches our parents don't i mean even we don't have lessons on how to be and the challenge we have is it doesn't matter you might have shown up brilliantly for example in your past relationships but then you get a new relationship it's a totally different human being with a totally different value system totally different experiences they're bringing into that different needs wants desires learned experiences communication preferences so you have to learn all over again about how to work with that person and relationships i always say to people if nothing else just keep a curious lens even if you are in the pits of conflict be curious as to where that is coming from it's really hard to put yourself into your partner's position especially if you're cross with them about something particularly if they've done something terrible to you perhaps infidelity or whatever it may have been they've betrayed you in some way um but holding your boundaries first is really important but actively communicate and i always say this actively communicate from that first person perspective i feel this not you've done this because it's just never going to be a productive conversation that's good um but always from that i feel and and and that that can de-escalate an argument and bring it into a more productive conversation makes you listen harder as well does it you're not on the back it's not a personal attack it's so important to work on yourself and i think within my marriage uh we we're huge advocates of couple therapy i mean people might be shocked have you done it absolutely people might be shocked to know that as a couple therapist we have couple therapy we haven't for a while actually we can't wait we go romping romping towards our therapist like this because because life is complex you know we are two very headstrong people in a marriage with two children i've been carrying my mental health baggage over here he's been carrying his grief baggage over there you know it is fragile yeah it's fragile at times so so we both are big advocates of our own therapy i mean i'm i'm fortunate in a way that because i am a therapist life coach i actually have my own regulated uh supervision anyway which is therapy every month and that's to keep me insured and and keep me you know ethically uh within the guidelines um of the governing bodies that i'm a part of um so i love that so i i get i have two different supervisions for the two different modalities that i work within and i love that so that's my offload and supervision is mandatory for a professional therapist or coach to for me to offload anything that's making sure you're not carrying too much because i have caseloads and exactly and i'm cute and I'm a human being at the end of the day.

42:03So it helps keep you regulated. It helps, you know, keep efficacy and best practice. But then, you know, my husband and I, you know, over the years, yeah, definitely when we've, those conversations, all those lovely little tricks and techniques I've talked about just haven't worked on a personal level because we're too far in emotionally or I've been really triggered by something that's brought loads of my crap back. And we've gone to couple therapy and it's bloody great, but we will always work on ourselves first. He had to work on him. I've had to work on me um and then I find that kind of fascinating that as a therapist because there was a question in my mind which was really around like is there do you have this ability to almost like swivel the hat and go from therapist Anna to I'm just your wife and I'm completely dazzled by your Sicilian biceps I was like how do you how do you sort of play those two roles but I think I actually think it's really amazing to hear that you guys are so human and so normal in many ways.

42:59We're so normal. And actually, it's really interesting you say that because I know that when we first did couple therapy a couple of years ago, it's just, again, a bit of a reset. We just needed someone to sit in between us and mediate and meh, meh, meh, meh. And I remember him, it was quite interesting, actually, a reflection of him and actually the therapist, she was brilliant, she was brilliant therapist. Looking for a recommendation. Oh, I can really recommend her. Because I'm going to be perfectly honest and people do this to me when I'm their couple therapist, you can tell that each of them are trying to curry favour.

43:31Each of them wants to have the slight bias from the therapist that you secretly, you're secretly behind them. I roll there from Ryan. So I'm going to be perfectly honest. I'm on this, I'm in this therapist session. I'm thinking, and it's a female therapist. I'm thinking, surely what I'm going to say, she's going to be there. And then when she challenges, and that is my role as a therapist too. You are totally unbiased. And your job is to just be a mirror to both of them, to help them own their own behaviour you reflect on their own behavior and find the commonalities to repair that behavior together you are not there to judge and you are but you're not there to make friends either and i remember she called me out this is ages ago i've never talked about this it's actually lovely talking about it it's nice to reflect on i feel like louise is in on this bit yeah yeah she's in on but i remember she she picked me up and she was like and what i loved about her she didn't know what i did she had no idea what i did so i'm like this is because i don't want i don't want her to know anything about me she didn't know you're a therapist no no i didn't tell her i didn't she didn't know who I was she's he's an older lady so I was specifically picked because I'm gonna be honest some of my clients and some other people I work with they try and poker face it but then you know they know what I do which is fine but they're biased exactly I didn't I deliberately you know that was kind of one of our sure I did she was like she called me out on it she said you're masking to me I was like beg your pardon she went you're in this industry she went because I think you're giving me what you think I want to hear no way she said this mid-session yeah and And my husband, I could see the smug bastard look on his face.

44:57And I was like, well. And she was like, you're masking. You're not being vulnerable enough. You're not being vulnerable. And it was worse to the effect of. And I thought, fuck. And then I thought, oh, you're good, though, because you've called me out. And you bloody well know. And I knew what I was doing. I was trying to, not overtly, let me know. I was trying to manipulate the position. Yeah. I was trying to, I was trying to, I didn't know I was doing it. But I was almost trying to be like, well, I'm goody two-shoots because I know what I'm doing. I know how to communicate well. I'm telling her that I'm doing this over here because I know this is best practice.

45:28And actually my husband was being the vulnerable one. And he was the one that was saying all the raw shit. And I was the one masking. I feel like, Louise, you've got something to say about this. I feel like you...

45:39Louise: We've not ever done couples therapy before. Ryan has, and actually I've sort of, now we're on like a nice jovial tone, but it is serious. But Ryan has actually been... Has just agreed to do therapy for the first time ever, which I think is phenomenal and so exciting because I think the opportunities are going to be amazing. But, you know, it's something that we've spoken about for quite a long time and there's been quite a lot of resistance. Have you not had therapy since Louise had all her challenges? I did. I did. No, I did. I did like I've had a very short experience with it and it was over the phone with someone I didn't really connect with.

46:12Louise: Ryan spoke to someone at. So when we were really peak on wellness, sort of a lot of trauma floating around the house, like really unstable environment. Ryan had to go away to reset. And there was sort of a condition actually that you were going to speak to someone. But the person that Ryan spoke to, I feel like you didn't get the most out of it. I got some benefit from it. I think this is actually a very interesting thing you've raised because I get so many messages about this week in, week out, actually about finding a therapist and counsellor. Yeah, because so much of the industry is unregulated, not in a bad way, but there are different governing bodies out there.

46:52But even with governing bodies, this is probably, it's such a personal experience. You could have somebody that is just very gifted with their people skills. And actually, I know some lesser qualified coaches and therapists, but are just fantastic with the way that they, yeah, really effective with what we call therapeutic alliance. What we're talking about here is therapeutic alliance. This is the contract, the invisible contract you have between therapists and clients. and because we're all human beings and it's a deeply personal thing for everybody you will not get on with everybody as we would not get on with everybody in life in general and i know some extremely highly qualified therapists that have got a billion letters after their names and they are members of every single regulated governing body going and yet i know people that have gone oh my god hated them didn't work for me didn't gel didn't like their processes didn't work and i know um of people that have had the same no conditions the same but very similar presenting conditions the same therapist once had an amazing outcome the other absolute ratchet so there is no one size fits all and that is not saying that uh the therapist is bad there are some terrible therapists out there i would also like to say there are also some fantastic therapists out there but the challenge that we have with therapy and coaching is it is so nuanced around what works for you and i get a lot of people go oh i tried it once before really put me off at a terrible counselor and when you unpack perhaps what kind of because there's so many different processes so many different modalities within therapy that people want to use or they're trained in and there's so many different arenas depending on what you're coming in to the therapy for um and it might just be that that person that particular type of therapy isn't the one that works for you some people are really into kind of uh so i i loved uh hypnosis actually so um hypnosis uh trauma work really worked for me some people think it's a load of old shit they're like oh what's this how woo woo stuff you know and and again that comes down to sort of personal life i tried that early on right did you like it i think it was too early on right you have to be fully open to that process yeah and some people think some people absolutely love emdr as a trauma therapy it's a fantastic therapy but again some people say it doesn't work for them so i think for you ryan possibly not the right person not the right time it could be all kinds of things and always what i say to people i probably wasn't just i wasn't open enough and so many people aren't and often often i'll get people in actually and i say actually now is not the right time for you and often you don't know that until you started it and then you go actually not for me so i would always say try again if you're open to it because yeah it depends on what you need no i'm i'm open

49:34Louise: to it we had this conversation last week and ryan had said i think we should do couples therapy instead and i said i think we should you should do solo therapy and then we can do couples therapy so we'll fall back on that but i think that you the whole like dynamic of couples therapy i think that you slightly worry that there's going to be a bias going on that's why i said to him i don't think we should do couples therapy because i actually was really honest and i said to ryan I think that I'll be there I think I'll try and outsmart you and I think I'll try to win favor with the therapist not in an intentional horrible nasty way but I think that but you like to be liked well yeah I mean I do I guess there's that but that's really honest but to even admit that before you've even had couple therapy is a great like a great sense of admission I mean what I can say to you I can pass on my one because I'm telling you she'll see right like she did me that smug bastard that is my husband but actually but it was but it was great it was it's great and i think but i think even but i think even you know what what i would honestly say is if you do end up having couples therapy bring that to the session and say i'm worried or even you say i'm worried that louise is going to be currying favor and wanting to outsmart you oh i will yeah exactly yeah then we'll need a really i imagine we'll need a really hot shit therapist to be able to handle that or that's just textbook i guess that probably happens all the time and it but this is the thing and as i'm i am that couple therapist too and of course i sit there and i'm human and i will have my own internal judgments about straight away i'm like i can see what's going on here that's not my role my role is not there to judge i'm not here to be either of their friends i'm here to help repair their relationship so i'm here to hold a bloody mirror up to each of them I am not here to be biased to one of them or the other that is not my role as a therapist and if I feel like someone is that's where I'd call it out or I have ways of swerving that around and you pass it back over to to the other one to kind of have their say more can I ask you a question because this is something that I think everybody wants to know the answer to god what do you think is the biggest reason for why people cheat so i do uh a lot of work in infidelity and affairs yes so i have another podcast called the affair which uh was something that i was working on for for a long time wanting to bring infidelity out from the shame and stigma of the therapy couch because one in five people admit to having an affair really really fuck it's literally everywhere really really and in my experience anecdotally um it is not it's not personally having an affair uh but my experience anecdotally it is uh there's no one size fits all on any affair i've ever seen there has never once been a carbon copy and i think we stick it up there as some sordid hollywood wanting to get your end away you know in a back alley somewhere yeah there are some of those but overwhelmingly me it's emotional connection emotional connectivity that is the root cause of where that affairs come from and what I love hearing and bringing and it's such a space of catharsis actually because it's it's a difficult subject regardless of where you are and when I do this particular podcast around affairs I have on real life stories of um one one there's typically a triangle you know the person who's having the affair the cheated on person and and the other person the other woman or other man uh um or the victim so to speak and it's really interesting hearing all the different perspectives what has gone into all of the different perspectives in fact i was doing a couple of episodes yesterday and i yeah and i love to i tear up i present it almost as kind of the the shock headline yeah um one of the ones that sticks in my mind always was let's give you the headline i was having an affair whilst my husband was dying in palliative care shocking headline oh my god and then you unpack this and i always go back to then unpacking i do a bit of relational psychotherapy as well what was going on for that person way back when you know the origins of that relationship and you know what was going on and really starting to invest emotionally in that person's head and what was going on for them to why the motive so you get more context absolutely because when you start asking those questions so there you present it over there but when you start and it's not ever excusing an affair it's not ever excusing the action but does it change the feeling a little bit understanding there's a next it's not it's not a it's not an excuse but there is often a reason and it's in it's up to that person and the people affected to know whether they want to you know do anything about that yeah but i'm yet to have anybody i've dealt with with infidelities and affairs where it's not been complex can you send us some links of your favorite episodes and put them in the show notes oh yes i will i think that would be brilliant yeah i i really will yeah i really i'll cherry pick i mean every single one there's some really shocking ones it's and devastating and but i think affairs infidelity fascinates me do you think when people are younger and cheating feels not quite normal like it's normalized in sort of younger relationships I guess what would what would some advice be so say one of your children gets cheated on in a relationship what would your advice to them be I think again it's so nuanced I think it depends on um what the relationship is as in how committed that relationship is i've been cheated on a lot of times have you yeah i think most people and the only relationship that has stuck has been the you know our relationship and and actually this is the first relationship that i've been in that hasn't i haven't cheated to confirm

55:30Louise: yeah yeah um so i feel obviously very very safe and secure and grateful i'm not sure that we we've actually sort of got this agreement that if either of us were to cheat we wouldn't try and claw it back we don't think it would be possible now that is a very interesting one because again yet again same conversation we've had have you one thing we pride ourselves on in our marriage and our relationship is is trust and the fidelity side of it we are in a monogamous relationship by choice i deal a lot with um you know polyamorous couples as well and that's a whole new ball game but again that has a framework and a structure to it i i can be in a non-monogamous relationship personally my husband and i i think we yeah we've already had the conversation as well i don't think we could come back from either of us we hold it so sacred in our marriage um that it's almost a glue that comes back to the values piece there right it does so what you hold and he holds yeah exactly we have a very strong sense of loyalty and this is it and that's why when you when you said about you being chalk and cheese same me and my husband you know i'm a prattler i'm you know i'm over he's quite you know he's sort of the quiet steady one you know that's but actually when you look into these relationships it's been like about sam and pete i know they're not in a sexual relationship i mean who the hell knows but what was very apparent with them you know is their values are very intertwined and very intimate you know and like they love what they do yeah family exactly integrity loyalty you know all of that kind of stuff exactly uh and it's the same with me and husband yeah integrity loyalty trust I mean I probably the same you just said about Ryan actually I yeah I've had some oh I've had a few dodgy relationships in my past but a couple of nice ones too um but mostly dodgy um and actually my husband is hand on heart uh no matter and we've actually said this to each other no matter how difficult things have been at times we have never questioned the fidelity we have to each other especially with the job site you know the job I do and i think that's probably with yourselves as well we work in such arenas where let's not forget the conception of my relationship was you know and and the same as yours was in a you know professional you know so we know what it's like to be working in different spaces with lots of different people lots of attractive people you know trust and fidelity is really if that if that when i think yeah our relationship would be would be toast because i don't think i come back from that because it is held in such high regard yeah yeah but i think to your question about what I say to young people if my daughter and son had been cheated on oh I think you have to take each case as an individual case and really understand it unpack it what has gone on the whys what role and this is a hard one in infidelity let's say let's say my husband did cheat on me you know but the important you have to also ask the person the injured party what role did you take in that infidelity and often you go nothing the cheating bastard on me I haven't but you've always this takes two and it's always about being self-reflective as well and where your role is and also it's i've seen many relationships do come back from infidelity and cheating but there has to be a complete purge on what happens you have if you need if you need to know the sordid details you need to move through it you've got it you've got to give them you can't be withholding it you know you've got to let it all out it's ugly it's horrible it's dirty it's nasty but when you've done that and then you also then have to agree if you are pushing through it and you're moving on you leave it behind it doesn't get brought up two years and you're having another argument well you bloody cheated on me to you no it's not going to work it's really hard but i have seen couples very successfully come back through infidelity and be stronger than ever i've got a real interest and intrigue around why relationships do fail because i'm a bit like you in the sense that i really think it's important to get a wider understanding of the context around things and i was like but what has changed in the world that we live in and i think well obviously so much has changed but i think one of the like very poignant pieces to mention is that we've we've replaced this um beautiful thing that used to exist years back which is human connection and people really opening up and talking nicely we've got these devices we've got technology we've got these fast instant gratification things that light up our world and we've sort of replaced all of this real connection and human stuff with fantasy and you've got men and women who are just fantasizing over people they've never even met or lives they could never even fathom or get to and we sort of shop and scroll and we swipe and when it comes to dating it's the same thing people are literally like taking a three second look at someone be like in the bin and i think it's really um it's really sad and kind of devastating that we've got to a place where consistency in a relationship feels replaceable loyalty that's a good that's good times needs loyalty feels boring and whilst i also wrote the effort feels like too much of a hard thing for people to do so people are just what can i go and do that's going to light me up and give me that next hit no one wants the boring thing no no one wants the stillness and the stability they're looking for the kind of quick fix the next thing the new relationship and the and the last thing to add to that was i don't think that we have changed our uh interpretation of what love means and feels like i just think that we've lost what discipline looks and feels like it looks like strong and discipline church bro yeah discipline for me is one of the values that really is central to my self so that's what i wanted to add to that well mate seriously stand on that on that box because absolutely preach it um gosh you know where do i even go with that i think you're right i think where we are in in modern day society is that we have had so much so quickly with technology and we lost our heads and i do think we are still playing catch up from the covid times i hate to keep going back to money covid um but i think you know during that time uh face-to-face communication for a good couple of years was replaced by tech and we absolutely saw what was called you know kind of the zoom boom exactly and you know another epidemic in in loneliness loneliness epidemic as a result of that covid because we it took a long time for everyone to kind of get back out of that being insular i know i did took me ages i kind of enjoyed the insular so many people did we suddenly reduced and realized what we what we didn't sort of need anymore but then we replaced a lot of it with tech or we stopped bothering going out because it was just easier and that's the thing it became on the bloody new normal we kept talking about but it is it's like habits you have to keep practicing a habit or keep doing the same thing over and over again for it to be ingrained in you so when we all got used to doing bugger all that became ingrained in us or actually you know dodging that friend or not bothering with that or not seeing that person face to face it became the easier option and it just became a different way of being and and then and so I do think we're still playing catch up with that what might sort of hearten you I think with gen z is so there's two things so we're dating there is something that's sort of a dating trend you know that came and called chalance dating so there's not so not so you know nonchalance like not giving a shit so that that was kind of that's that's something that we've been battling for a while nonchalant just swipe left swipe right whatever bin it off sack it off can't be arsed you've had an argument oh don't worry about it there's someone else lined up yeah give it go so so as you say vacuous um but chalance dating as it's been coined is is is kind of a little gen z a thing but in general so where they try harder to care where effort is actually now starting to replace when it comes to dating and it's now become more of a fashionable thing to um slow down to be more intentional and it's cooler now to because you know there was that yeah whatever you know i'm you know non-exclusive you know i'm just keeping my options open you know whatever that was exactly just you know hanging out hooking up whatever that was that was the nonchalant dating that was in fashion now that's that's not cool anymore uh it's it's about effort it's about intentional you know really making the effort making those plans being consistent with your texting setting your dates and all that kind of thing so i really hope that's not just a trend and i really hope we're starting to see that that uptick and that uptick swing and i think um chalance i remember yeah i think we should be a bit more chalanty so be more shalancy we're gonna be more shalancy yeah you can say that and make it sound so fucking sexy but i think it's the same it's the same you know going back to relationships as well i think you're absolutely right and we have seen that it's because it's become so easy to just throw the baby out with the bath water now um in relationships because you know back in the day back in my parents day funnily enough i was actually i don't know if you're into disney plus rivals i'm obsessed with it and back in the 80s and it really gripped me with with you know these affairs happening left right and center it really made me remember actually that you know even in even the 80s you know divorce it was it was not a thing you know it was it has stigma attached to it yeah you know you put up you shut up you know and i think we saw that i know it's disney rivals but you know affairs left right you know stoic i will stay in this marriage because it was a bit shameful to to to divorce or not be in a marriage so so much sort of put up and shut up Now things have changed, thank God.

1:04:52You know, and divorce is absolutely not a dirty word. It is something that is far more accessible and rightly so. Because like I say, if you are in a crap marriage, get out of it. You should not be putting up in a substandard relationship. You really shouldn't. But I think also with that, I think that's also given perhaps in some cases a license to reach for it very quickly. When possibly you could go, hang on a minute. okay so that's at the end of the road but there is about 15 steps that we can perhaps just check off first before we go down that divorce route which i'll be honest it's expensive it's ugly and it is not easy i've got lots of friends actually i mean i'm in my mid-40s now so i am one and two divorced now quite a few of my friends are in in divorce and honestly not one of them is having a fun time of it and i'm not saying they should have stayed in their marriages yeah and they they shouldn't be in those marriages those marriages are not are not a good space for them on all sides but my god they are struggling yeah with children and the financial side of it horrible it's grief isn't it great horrible started with the high whoo yeah you know back out there and then the reality you know is you're still in the court case 18 months later and you're the shit got real around dividing your kids dividing your money what the hell this means for me now it's and i'm not saying they shouldn't be doing it and and i can say to them stay with it you're in the trenches it will get better and it will yeah but it's not easy and that's why i always say to people don't give up on love give up on love keep dating we love shallance we love

1:06:16Louise: shallance we do love shallance um you've spoken really openly about how you had a hugely traumatic birth that left you with depression and ptsd which i'm sure many of our listeners will be able to sadly relate to um but you then went on to have what you call your medicine baby which is your second child your daughter yeah that healed you yeah so we are god why is this being emotional but we're we're like feeling really hopeful about growing our family and i'd love just any advice that you have for people that have had a horrendous time with their first that they can have a magical second like the second that they deserve yeah absolutely and sit with it sit with it and you ryan because because we're scared of course you are of course you are and i was petrified to get pregnant again after after enzo and i i always wanted several children i'm one of three my husband's one of three and i probably one of my most common questions or feedback i get from people say how did you go from having such a terrible time and then go on to have a second one you know and it makes me really sad when people go one and done because of their birth trauma although as we know it's it's very common and for me it took until Enzo my son was two and I'd come out of the trenches I was I was okay you know things were okay and then the overwhelming responsibility which a lot of people feel to be well for him to not lose my shit again you know not be where i was when i had him you know the risks were too great you know for my family my husband everything i was like i just think and my husband was like we can't do that again yeah yeah he's like i can't do that again anna but it was actually um and i don't know if leo said it was actually my boy that kept asking for siblings he was like do i get to have a baby sister you not a baby brother.

1:08:20Leo has said that. He said it, yeah. This is it.

1:08:23Louise: Because he has lots of friends with little baby brothers and sisters. And his favourite thing to do every night is list our family. So like that's mummy in a picture, that's daddy, that's me, and that's Koji in total. And I would love to be able to offer him a sibling. I mean, and that was the motivation. And I think what I would say, having done it myself, and I'm so happy to say successfully so, um is about doing it your way and whatever you need to do to make it happen in the way that makes you happy healthy and you get your family look at the end goal of what you want to achieve and i know for you guys that's taking a different route as well but what i would honestly say this the the that part of it is a small part well it's obviously a huge part but time wise and emotion wise will be a relatively small thing when you focus on the end goal of having a baby and your family and all the years you have ahead and when your grandparents and you've got you know so i think really focus on the outcome um but for me i i then had some excellent uh psychological support i went to my every nhs borough has a perinatal mental health team um and i self-referred and i had some excellent uh trauma work again i was terrified to get pregnant my pregnancy was so planned with l i had i had a psychological support all throughout getting pregnant when i did peed on the stick uh and i actually rang my perinatal consultant psychiatrist before my husband to tell her i was pregnant because i suddenly went oh i remember she pulled over on the m1 i went don't worry we got nine months we'll be fine and i chose a planned section i knew i was having a planned section everybody agreed with that i knew when i was having my baby for me control was so important um the pregnancy was fine and i remember going in and having her i had her at christmas um and i had such and i call it most beautifully underwhelming birth it was so boringly medicalized went in popped her out the sunroof you're home for christmas and i was home for christmas day you know and and it and what i didn't have with my son where I didn't have any of that bond straight away because of the trauma I had straight away with her and I remember giving birth to her and I'm hoping you guys will have this when you hold your baby for the first time and that's really all it is you know she came out you know and it wasn't until um I was given her for the first time and they said you want to try and latch her and I was like oh I don't know if I want to breastfeed because I didn't first time around I was like yeah I want to try and I remember she latched straight away and I remember just oh thank christ it's like the plug socket connected and i went yeah this is great this feels good and i feel goose bumpy now and you know what we were great and that and that will happen for you guys i think remember don't measure yourself against anyone else but stay in the moment stay in the feelings the pros i think whether you carry your own child or not i mean there are so many different routes now to having a baby focus on the end goal okay because this will be your baby and your family and families are made up in all different shapes and sizes I think that's lovely that you and Alex had that opportunity to fix that yeah we fixed it and it was um great and you're you're so right that ultimately this is it's like it's our legacy and it is a long-term thing and our children will be our children for hopefully you know a very very long time and how special that your child you know god willing you know you that you go on to have will know the efforts that you went to to have them you know and to have a well mama or well daddy you know and um we all got friends and we know people that have families in all different mechanisms but what is the overarching thing is having that loving supportive family at the end of the day i don't think me personally it doesn't matter how you get there whether you uh grow that baby yourself whether it's done through fertility treatment whether you have a cesarean whether you a vaginal birth however whether you adopt whether you foster it doesn't really matter for me really it all comes down to how you operate as a family and the love and support that you can give I've people always say to me are you done probably think biologically I am I'm 44 I think it's probably dust I don't think I could face carrying the baby but you know what I would love the opportunity to foster adopt one day you know because I truly believe we are a family that has a lot of love to give and a lot of stability to give and I truly believe I can love a child that isn't a child I've carried you know and I think um yeah I think families come in different shapes Anna you are wonderful beautiful I wish you guys the best I'm excited about your journey let's sit with the emotions as it happens because it will be up and down like any I wasn't expecting it I thought sort of I thought I'd parked all of the the trauma and the tears but it does rear its head it will rear its head it will rear its head it definitely did with me you know really catch yourselves and watch out for when you do have another pregnancy another child how it can take you back to what perhaps you reminisce or regret or or were the first i know that definitely helped a little bit i'm thinking god i feel a bit guilty the fact that now you know my relationship with my daughter is just like plain sailing and now i'm like oh my poor boy i hope he doesn't ever feel like i didn't like you know and but he won't no it's but i and i genuinely know that but i can it's okay to acknowledge that yeah yeah and actually he's nine now that is a fear yeah it's a fear we have so many scary thoughts so many scary thoughts yeah and i think god he's gonna read something someday and but but he's nine now and he's my god he's my kid he's hill i talked to him really openly about it he knows that mommy was poorly when i had him and uh you know and then but now he knows you know we're we're obsessed yeah and and you just educate your kid you know and that's and that's what you will do yeah lovely it's been a very lovely conversation i feel inspired in many ways so do i oh i love it I could chat to you all day.

1:14:12Louise: We'll have to get you back on. Yes. You're such a, just a diamond in the rough. I'm obsessed with you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Kindest person. Oh. Anna, before we finish, what was by far my favourite conversation so far. And I mean that as well. Well, we can continue it whenever you like. Oh, thank you. I'm keen for that. Bring Alex in the fold as well. He'd love to. Yeah. Listen, we have a little format towards the end of the show where we offer a recommendation and it can be as random as you like i'll kick things off so recently i've been playing around with a new kayak i love it i love adventures and i love getting outdoors so i've had this origami fold-up kayak which sits in the boot of the car and it literally unfolds unpacks into this two-person tandem kayak that i've had already some amazing fun adventures on the thames river which i know is not particularly clean but to have that perspective of the city from the water, pull up on the banks of the river, have lunch.

1:15:08That sounds super fun. My recommendation is to check out something called Oru Kayak. Oru Kayak.

1:15:13Louise: Okay. Luis, or do you want to? Mine's really random. Wait for mine. I love, basically this week I tried something called the Big Daddy Pistachio Bites from M &S. Why are they putting big letters? The Big Daddy Pistachios. I would highly recommend. It's a chocolate, like a little mini chocolate. It's extortionately expensive. I feel like someone went into a factory and said, can you make the most addictive thing you have ever created. I haven't tried these Big Daddy pistachios. Taste, texture, it's phenomenal. I know that there was that whole pistachio sort of craze that everyone loved. Was it like a Dubai pistachio chocolate?

1:15:47Louise: Yeah, the Dubai choccy. But this is, it's great, like would order. Okay, love that. Have you got a recommendation? I do, I do. Am I allowed to say brand names? Yeah. So mine would be the Aldi version of Aperol. Stunning. Yeah. Love this. This is good. I was, I'm starting to, I'm going back to the eighties guys. Like my mum used to do the Saturday big shop. Right. And I take my youngest to, she goes to the theater school on a Saturday morning. Thank God. One of my kids is interviewing us. And so I take her to Aldi cause it's next door and she loves it. She likes the mystery aisle of shit. But Aldi Aperol, right.

1:16:23It is like£6.99 versus what? £17.99 for normal Aperol. This Aldi Aperol, chef's kiss. Great. That is a great recommendation.

1:16:31Louise: That is so good. I'm going to order some. Well, you don't drink, but I'll drink it this weekend. The random aisle of shit. Is that the one where you get all the dupes for stuff? Yes. Yes. Love that. It's so good. And they also do. And then I bought these as well. They do. Then they have the, this is why it's so genius in there, because you get so overexcited about everything being cheaper than in other shops. So then you just go mad. And then you just start shoving everything in the trolley. And like my daughter loves it. She likes like doing the beep beep. She pretends and all that kind of crap.

1:17:01And then they have the miniatures, you know, like the ready mixed Aperol spritzes like in a four pack. Yes. It's called Aperini. The old fridge sounds brilliant. Chucks that in. I mean, there we go. And then my son, who's such a bloody snob. Honestly, I've created this snob of a child. Youngest daughter, she's with me. She's like, loves a knockoff. Comes in, looks at all the, that's a knockoff. That's a knockoff. He knows? Yeah, he knows. He knows how old is he again? Nine. Nine. He's like, that's not a real Rice Krispie Marshmallow bar. That's an Audi knockoff. Not eating that. I was like, you entitled little shit.

1:17:30You can have nothing but the school apple snack break. I am obsessed. I need to meet him. Oh, trust me. He's a chip off the old block. He's a real mix between me and my husband. He's got no filter, like my Sicilian husband, and his bullshit, like I've got. So yeah, I don't know what. He's going to either end up in jail or run into the country.

1:17:51Louise: Probably both. Probably both are like most. Okay. Thank you, Anna, for coming in and giving us just the most beautiful conversation. It's been such a treat. I've honestly I'm not just that I've really really enjoyed it I could stay forever and consider me in your life forever and I'm genuinely here to help support you through the next journey as well I think you guys are a fabulous couple and you're so beautifully vulnerable and I think yeah I can see why so many people are big fans thank you that's so sweet thank you that was epic loved it love you guys likewise

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