Things Got Heated Discussing Our Argument Styles...

0:00Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too? Alright, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home.

0:30Louise: Hey guys, welcome back to He Said She Said, your weekly podcast hosted by Louise Thompson. And Ryan. Can I say both my names? Louise Thompson, for anyone that doesn't know. Yeah, you can. Lead with it. Older sister of Sam Thompson. Oh, go on. Better half. Yeah, the real talented one. And Ryan Libby. We've got a bit of a confession to make. We or you? Well, it's not really a confession, is it? Ryan and I have started arriving... No, no, no. To the podcast separately. separately and it's really paying off only the last two episodes we've done that but yes it is quite nice i think it's better for our chemistry it's nice to have some time yeah but you're just doing like a thousand and one things on the way and i'm just basically chauffeur ryan every time which i find a little bit no yes so for that reason i was passenger princess ryan was chauffeur i try and get ahead and do a bit of research on the podcast this is the thing you're always ahead of me.

1:27Louise: I'm like, fuck's sake. The things that we wanted to talk about. And Ryan, I think, got a bit jealous. So - Not jealous. I now drive, and actually it's really good for my mental health. I actually wrote a note to myself on my phone the other day that the times that I'm happiest are when I'm in the shower, when I'm driving, and when I'm doing these exercise classes, maybe a sand bath. It's probably because I can't be on my phone. I have to be present. Did you notice that we were battling for my Spotify at the same time? Yes, I did. So I was listening to a podcast and it kept disappearing and I was not losing that battle.

1:59No, because I gave it up. I was like, I'm going to let her have this podcast.

2:03Louise: Does that mean you didn't have any music? I had to use YouTube, which was just filled with ads every five seconds. Are you allowed to listen to music when you're on a motorbike? Yeah. Sort of similar to being in a car. I just wonder whether it's dangerous. So whether you need to be really aware of the roads around you. I'm sure there'll be lots of people who say that is dangerous, but it's just a low level, a little bit of something, you know. Some helmets, you can fit the helmet comms and you can chat as if you're hands-free. That could be cool. Maybe you could get that and we could shout. You're going into your little flow state when you're driving by yourself.

2:37So you keep doing that.

2:38Louise: Anyway, I was feeling... Do you share a Spotify? Yeah, is that really weird? I've got a Spotify, which Louise obviously loves and she's trying to turn my Spotify into some like public thing. And I'm like, no, we share enough. My music is precious. For some reason, I let you access my Spotify because you kept basically, if we were driving, Louise would Shazam everything from my Spotify and then she'd add it to her content and people would be like, oh my God, Louise, your music is so amazing. That's true. And I was like, you may as well just like stop paying for this dual account and use mine and just take my music.

3:15Louise: Can we just explain what Shazam is for anyone that doesn't know? Oh, best app in the world. when you, when we used to have like a Nokia 3310, you would just hit the 2580 button down the middle and it would automatically call this company called Shazam and you'd get a text with the song. It would listen to whatever was playing and you'd receive a text with the song, which is genius. But now you just have a Shazam app, you press the middle and it will tell you what the song is and then you can go buy it from Apple if you fancy. I think people know what Shazam is. I don't think everyone, does everyone know?

3:43Louise: I bet none of my friends, I don't think many people I think Shazam is maybe the best app in the world. Some people might not know. It's a good recommendation. Amazing. And we do share. And also, I don't want to have to fork out for my own account, but it is maybe, is that stingy? What, isn't it like 10 quid a month? It's the best 10 quid. It's the best 10 quid I spend. Hang on, no, I do have my own account because I've created this is a bit narcissistic. No, you've got a free one now, right? A free one? I've created a playlist, which is one of the podcast episodes that I've done on other people's podcasts, which was designed to be a resource for anyone that wanted to learn a bit more about birth trauma versus just people wanting to have me in there 24-7.

4:32Louise: I thought it would be useful. And more recently, I actually wrote a piece on my sub stack about our surrogacy journey. and when I was doing a lot of research I kind of allocated a whole weekend I think you were away maybe with Leo I allocated a whole weekend to listening to podcasts about surrogacy so I could learn about other people's experiences and I told people I'd create a playlist with all of the best surrogacy podcasts I listened to. She's actually just recommended that we put the playlist in the show notes not my playlist we could also share Ryan's amazing music playlist which I think will be much more relevant to the masses I don't have it in a playlist I've just got a giant a library of uh liked songs I need to it's very very yeah you actually really do luckily we do have the same taste in music I'd say a bit of classical bit of Frank Sinatra a bit of aggressive hip-hop rap and then some house music maybe a bit of reggae a bit of soccer oh no i'm not sure about that you love soccer music give which one we were in saint lucia that's splash buddy water all that stuff okay that is one song because it reminds me of the holiday i think do the full demo you look quite fit today ryan what i don't know have you shaved no hmm having a good day because my hair's getting long again oh you've got the wisps at the back little feathers yeah i don't feel very fit i feel a little bit swollen today do you i've seen something on pinterest right i'm starting to use pinterest more i'm obsessed with this no there's there's a video that i've seen and there's a few different faces so it's not always the same person but they'll cover half of their face and that it's not a gua sha stone but it's something like a brush and they'll do this lymphatic brushing and it gets rid of all this like fluid and swelling around the eyelids which i definitely seem to be suffering with and they reveal the other side and it's completely different as in like this is all stripped away and this is all like swollen i can't believe how much you've been influenced by these videos well is it bullshit that is marketing genius.

6:49How bloody hell have they done that video?

6:51Louise: It's with a brush because I often see ones with this sort of electrical stimulation. The impulse is like the sort of zip halo in the current body and face gym, which are these tools which have micro currents in them and you kind of run them up your face and they'll do it before and after and it does slim down your face. But that it works temporarily. So if you're doing it just before you get married, so like before you walk down the aisle, you might have a more snatched face, but then it just fades away. So you've got to be doing it 24 hours a day to see the results. Well, it's either... A brush maybe could be good for a bit of lymphatic drainage.

7:35It's not really here, it's more my eyelids.

7:37Louise: Well, you can't stop brushing your eyeballs. Well, not my eyeballs, but just like around. Oh my God, you're going to have enough. I feel like me and Sam are looking quite swollen lately. And I'm like, dude, is it the road we live on? Is it the lifestyle? Is it our nutrition? Is it living with Louise? Am I getting a reaction to the dogs? I don't know what's going on. I need help. Do you? Yeah. I'll just use an ice bath. I'll just get my face in there because I feel great after that. Okay. We'll get you on that. What was your question anyway? I was going to ask you whether you watch Sam on Soccer Aid.

8:09Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did watch it. Yeah. Yeah, I...

8:11Louise: He actually didn't invite us to go this year. Oh no, little bastard. Yeah, that's quite offensive. Like he didn't even mention it. Did he just assume that we weren't interested? Because that would be wrong. Because I am actually very interested. I think that's the most incredible honour to be part of that set up. The first time, is that the second time he's done it or the third? I think the third. He did Stamford Bridge, then up in Old Trafford, and then now in, was it Tottenham? That's right. Most incredible thing to be involved with. He's done it three times. the last time he did it he carried the match ball and started the game off which is insane also i mean i'm gonna get my point i'll get to my point of what i'm trying to get to but i'm trying to start with a really positive like admiration for that accomplishment because i don't know if he's really done it himself so i'm gonna big him up for a second i just think it's incredible and to be invited back three year three consecutive years is really impressive there's loads of names that i could reel off who sort of dive in for one year and then they don't get invited back so they obviously love him and he brings a lot of energy and value to it so i think it's incredible i did watch him and i did think that he was a little bit uh maybe too conservative with how he was playing and when he got when he was like taken off after 20 minutes or just at the 20 minute mark i because i know him like i know him i knew that that wouldn't have like particularly felt great for him because i feel like he was just warming up to the game yeah yeah so he kind of got taken off just as he was probably settling into things and i think having spoken to him since he's a little bit like yeah that's just exactly how i feel i but i did so watched it upstairs with leo which was really sweet because he was screaming at the tv and weirdly even though no one else i've spoken to could see anything and they didn't really have a commentary running through the players jersey numbers with you know who it was and who had the ball at the time.

10:03Louise: So he was sort of just, it was, there was a lot of guesswork. Leo, weirdly, could see every time Sam had the ball. He's like, that's Uncle Sam. I literally had to get my phone out and do a trip, like a super zoom. And I could see he was like, he's wearing blue trainers. He could just tell that it was him by his mannerisms. And Sam and I share similar mannerisms when it comes to sport in that we love playing sport, but we tend to enjoy passing the ball around to other people to then give them the glory, not because we don't want the glory ourselves, but I think because we're too scared to push forward and to go for goal and to fail and to miss.

10:43Louise: So yeah, there was a lot of backward passing. No, but that's probably quite normal in football. But are you trying to say that you watched it and you thought that he was being a little bit... He could have driven it forward more. He was playing it safe. But maybe that's admirable. Yeah. Can you imagine playing in a stadium filled with people and then millions watching on TV. I think I would also be pretty... I think it's really cool that they've started introducing female players. Well, not just this year though. No, the last few years. But only really recently. And I do think women's sport has had this huge moment over the last couple of years.

11:20It has.

11:21Louise: And I think that's really important. It is. Thank the women's football team for that. But it's mainly sports like football and rugby where women have been underrepresented. I think that people like traditionally just really associate those sports with being masculine first, like male first. Yeah. And they're quite like masculine in their energy, but I don't think that that should be the case. So anyway, I think it's cool. And it was really cool that Leo and I watched it together and that he can see women represented in sport. I've taken Leo to quite a few live sporting events where it's women's games.

12:00I've taken him to Chelsea Barcelona at the Chelsea Stadium. That was a UEFA final, women's football. I've taken him to the Women's Rugby World Cup final, which was insane. That was a complete sellout of Twickenham or the Alliance Stadium. He had a rugby ball signed by some of the players, one of which I can't remember her name, but she's doing super well in the sort of uprising of women in sport and all the great stuff that's associated with that. I think it's amazing, yeah. Not so amazing when GK Parry is like playing to the crowd. And like Tom Grennan passed her the ball and it went into touch.

12:38And she was like, oh, sorry.

12:41Louise: Yeah, I think she did like one pass. It was like, and then someone passed it back. Oh no. Quite funny. So much to learn. But she's not a professional sportswoman. I like some of the other ones. But the professional sportswomen that did come on the pitch. Oh my gosh. They are great. I actually would love to do it. Yeah, would you? Who won you? Oh, great. I think on a personal level, it feels important to me for Leo to see women in sport because like even the other day on the weekend, he said to me, oh, uh, mommy, like daddy always goes off on runs and is doing all this sport. What are you doing?

13:24Louise: You're always at home. and I thought shit like are we really leaning into sort of traditional gender stereotypes like why is Ryan seen as the sporty one and obviously Uncle Sam did the incredible soccer raid thing that he came along to up in Manchester last year and he literally idolized that he couldn't stop watching running videos after that and he thinks that I'm hanging out at home like cooking and cleaning and that doesn't sit very well with me because i am sporty

14:00Louise: so show them the way then i'm gonna show them the way wait until sports day you're not the only one that can wear shorts wait have we told you about sports day at nursery last year was that last year it was actually two years ago last year we were louise bolt over here you were so quick at that 100 meter dash or 50 meter dash whatever it was 2024 was the sports day and i did the stoma surgery in january jan feb only really came out of hospital the beginning of april and then come june it was sports day and i took it so seriously it was like the princess diana clip where she's literally full pelt in the cycling shorts which i know she was in these cool track suits and she beats the other mums in such a big way, which actually I think was a good thing because it meant that I could actually share the clip online and not feature other people's faces.

14:53Louise: But yeah, I mean. I remember I was on the touchline, I was on the sideline with Sam and we both looked at each other like, what just happened? All the women are like chatting about like their kids and like the picnic. Like what have you got with the picnic for your kids? And just like very like mumsy top line chat and you go down the start line and Louise is there like in position. And you just blitz it with these high elbows and you absolutely leave everyone for dead. What can I say? Breaking gender stereotypes every day, Ron. Crazy. The guys take it so seriously that honestly like four guys fell over in the race, which is so embarrassing.

15:28Oh no. Luckily I wasn't nervous. I'm so excited.

15:31Louise: Are you going to come second again this year? I didn't come second, you dirtbag. I came joint first. No, what with Mr. Daniel, who's the, like, what was he like the head of the nursery? Yes. Like not got any supposed sporting prowess. How do you know? I just know. It turns out he literally is. He's in Bolt. Yeah. The problem is, is we've got this guy who's quite a good friend of ours called Jeff, who's also got a kid in Leo's year who is an ex-football player. So he's supremely fit and really tall. I know. I would imagine he'll win. He's an ex-professional footballer. That was an awkward lover.

16:07He's pretty fast.

16:09Louise: Something else that we both watched this week was a Panorama documentary that came out on Monday on the BBC. It was only half an hour and it was a maternity failings documentary led by Donna Ockenden, who's currently reporting into the Nottingham Hospital Trusts, Nottingham University Hospital Trusts. It's the biggest inquiry of its kind ever in history. She's spoken with over 2 ,500 families who have experienced extreme birth trauma, lost children or other forms of medical negligence. and it left both of us really affected. I haven't watched something that's left me that affected in so long. To see you so traumatised by something was actually really shocking.

17:01Yeah, it was a very difficult watch that. If I was there by myself, I don't think I would have continued that one.

17:08Louise: why did you watch this when you've never watched anything like this before did you feel like you were ready well I think because the week before I did a I did an interview with Sky which was about the same issue but from the perspective of fathers so I felt like I was in that mind space and maybe open to a conversation like that or open to receive a program about that stuff but actually what I realized quite quickly because it was a very moving documentary it it kind of showed that um i've definitely got trauma still there i don't well i think the thing with trauma is probably um trauma is like a scar that you didn't really choose to have but it's there and it's up to you how you decide to what you put around it and how you how you move forward or it's it's it's the ability to carry it rather than it carry you and i think i've done some uh i've done some i've had some sense of progression to carry the stuff that i've seen and lived through but watching that was really uncomfortable for me and it made me have a really really strong emotional response to it which i guess suggests that i've still it's still got quite a hold on me a reminder i think why um we definitely need to keep pursuing this petition that we're working on, hoping, wishfully, that the government will appoint a maternity commissioner.

18:43Louise: Since watching that, I've actually DM'd Donna Ockenden, who I've not met before, and she actually just responded today. And I feel like all of these little things that happen are the stepping stones that are needed to keep building the momentum to make this lasting change. so I still feel like things are happening and they're moving in the right direction and she's um announcing her investigation on the 24th of June which is really soon and also Baroness Amos who's been heading up this national maternity inquiry is due to report at the end of June as well and I think it's then crazy that are just totally by chance our um petition

19:29finishes a week after that i feel as though that is like there's a lot of synchronicity

19:34Louise: happening in this space and i do feel i do feel really strongly that like that this is going to happen how did you feel watching that documentary really motivated to keep going i felt fucking angry like i wanted to punch a wall i also then really wanted to talk about our experience with you and I wanted to fact check things and I had spent a last weekend I had quite a traumatic experience when you were away with Leo I listened to Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score on Audible I couldn't get beyond the first chapter again I've tried to listen to it so many times because it's such a groundbreaking book it's actually no one's really written a book about trauma being stored in the body since then and it's old did you have a similar response to listening to that as i did watching the documentary that kind of thing it was less like of an obvious emotion when you were watching the documentary i could see that you had sort of you were holding back tears and you felt really sad whereas i felt really triggered and got back into a headspace that I experienced two, three years ago where I was convinced that I was never going to get better and I had lots of problems and I couldn't work my way out of them.

20:52Louise: Because I suppose part of my fear when it comes to listening to that story is that I don't know whether there's going to be the ending that I want there to be. Ultimately, the ending that I need is someone that's been traumatized and has done an awful lot of research around post-traumatic stress disorder and all of the avenues point in the direction of this is something you live with for life. I need to find the cure. I need to find the way out because I will, like that was the thing that really freaked me out all those years ago was that I would never get better because there is no cure. And so I guess listening to really traumatic case studies in that story is very triggering.

21:39Louise: and then that night i spent five hours until two in the morning uh going through all my scans all of the scan reports everything on the nhs app and putting them all into ai and trying to get to the bottom of what happened to me still four years on because there are still things that i'm uncovering that i didn't know about like i still don't know whether i had placenta left in my womb or whether i didn't yeah all the reports are saying different things like not helpful but also now i'm piecing the dots together and doing a lot of research in other areas and um so i think the thing that was highlighted to me in the documentary was that a lot of hospitals are misreporting circumstances so that they don't get investigated that's terrible and which is terrible really scary for patients who obviously don't understand the medical landscape and when you're in that vulnerable place of course you're not going to be delving through sheets of paper and online records to try and connect the dots it's why these it's why it's like some of these like legal cases that people go through when they see these hospitals they can take five to ten years before people get retribution it's like gear shift shift just like shift um i i i want to talk about argument styles oh hmm what what do you think do you think i'm an argumentative person um no do you think do you think i have a way of handling arguments it's like an is there an obvious pattern like a reaction absolutely yes which is why i'm quite excited to talk about this well okay so i'm also very interested to know what you what your interpretation of this is going to be tell me read out what the various argument styles are and then we can try and guess each other's yeah but is is what you're about to tell me is it is it just is it gospel or is it just these are like some potential but who is gospel because everybody is writing their own list in their own book tell me something tell me tell me some examples okay shut down okay isolate quite similar but yes okay get defensive okay talk it out immediately yeah no that's not me people please to keep the peace say something hurtful then regret it that's you we're not over them yet wait let me numb out and dissociation.

24:11Okay.

24:12Louise: God, those are relatable. So hang on. We've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Okay. So are you about to tell me where you think I land on that, that spectrum on that menu? Yeah. Am I allowed to do that? You can have a go. Yeah. Shall I have a go? I think you are. Is this going to start an argument? Number one, I think you get defensive. Number two, I think you shut down. And number three, I think you isolate. Wait, can I be three or can I just be one? Okay, well, I think you're definitely defensive and you isolate. What? No, you're just saying that's getting a reaction out of me now.

24:47Louise: Well, okay, none of them are perfect. This isn't like there's a good or a bad one. They all suck. Arguing is not something we can really glorify. When we argue, the subject of the argument isn't necessarily very important. it can be the smallest thing but it's the argument style that blows us so out of proportion and that's where the problem arises so a couple of weekends ago we had a huge like a monumental argument about insurance home insurance it was home insurance wasn't it it was really big i think i asked you one question about it and you lost your shit wait so which one of those seven was I was I projecting at that time defensive so defensive but for no reason the question was like hey do you think like I'm a bit no it wasn't even a question I think I was sharing an emotion with you I said I'm a bit worried about the fact that we don't have home insurance no you didn't say I did I said I'm a bit worried about the fact we don't have home insurance like when are we going to get it because otherwise the remorgan can't go you just teed me up to my rebuttal to this now it's all about the delivery and the timing if you had done it in that sweet way I'd have been like you've got my attention let's resolve this now what happened?

26:07it was Saturday morning and I was we both had a week and I was like I'm going to do something a little bit unexpected and I'm going to try and break the mould of this week so we can get out of this stressed frantic state and go and enjoy some family time

26:19Louise: so Ryan Book's a really expensive restaurant for breakfast so we sat at breakfast and you had like a caviar omelette so you're like setting the tone early on i'm at this point i'm so satisfied i had some great coffee some great food i was like should we just go and cruise down and look at some shops didn't really want to shop but i was just like let's just do something as a family as a three at that point trying to get out of the house you basically just like take out your weapons and you're like i've got some shit to tell you i am pissed about this like where we're at with this home insurance thing and i'm like oh my god i've like tried to rope in kate who works with me to help me to like come up with solutions that you could like vet and go through, how are we now like in this position where you're genuinely fuming at me?

27:01I was, no, see, see, no, but you, this communication, okay. Cause I wasn't fuming

27:06Louise: at you at all. I'm freaked out about the fact that we're going to have spent more money. Yeah. But what I said to you all along was whatever, whatever you think is the, uh, you know, the sort of outcome of this, um, work that we've been doing around the home insurance and shopping around for the best deal whatever version you had at that time I was like that's not final we can go back and rework this we can speak to other people and you were so adamant to fix it there Saturday 10 a.m after the week we've had I was like can we please just park this to Monday and you kept pushing and you kept pushing at which point I was like Leo hold my hand mate take me away so we left you outside for like a good 20 minutes but then Leo the little champion he was like should we go and get mummy let's go and get mummy and he he then like walked me back and we all i think did we then drive home no no no no we didn't get shopping we drove home in silence but you weren't expecting so okay first of all we've obviously got two different versions of like how the conversation actually went what i would say is you're a pure avoidant so like you can't have a conversation about anything a bit tricky if it's going to spoil your energy we spoke about energy in last week's episode, if you want to listen to it.

28:14Louise: You and Sam are people that are like, that's a later problem. You like kick the can down the road. You go, yeah, not today. Not today. Like quite often I find men don't want to have the tricky conversation. Like the idea of being presented with a chat, like a sit down chat is petrifying. So you definitely walked away. Which you hate. Because you'd like to walk away, which I do hate. But I think that you thought that I would follow you. Because typically, what do you think my trait is? Well, from these. Argument style. say something hurtful and then regret it later that is you all over is it what did I say that was hurtful in that moment mate I'm not even going to say it on this podcast wait did I say something in this argument yes what did I say you say it on every argument not the same thing but you you're going to be like no but you sharpen blades quick and you cut me deep what did I say I'm not I'm not going to say it well you can say it and we can cut it out will everyone hate me until you say it yes but I actually can't actually remember what you said but you do but you do, you do, you do go deep.

29:13Louise: But that's the whole, I don't know where to go. What is it? It will be like something like, oh, I, well, I'll have to. Oh, after what? No, it's more like, why don't you just pack up and fucking move to your brother's den or something like that. No, I don't. She says it all the time. I thought it was going to be more. Thanks for reminding me that I live in your house, Louise. Thank you. No, no. Yeah. Okay. My latest really passive aggressive argument style is to say like, when you're burnt out and having a terrible time and complaining about the life that we have, which is an absolute dream together, that I'll be like, right, I really think that you should, I really think you should just go away for like a week or two, take some time for yourself.

29:51Louise: Like you really deserve it. You really should go do that. Maybe like book a holiday. Look at G getting awkward. Maybe like go and, maybe go down to Devin and you could spend some time with your parents because I know the reaction is going to be, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I present it in a way that it's attractive. Like you could go on holiday. but then you go no I couldn't you panic that you need to be needed no I don't so you'll be like oh no like you guys couldn't survive without me for a few weeks well that is true oh and I can't be without my son for a few weeks so I can't just go and I'm like you absolutely could just go we'll be fine no you won't we will you won't Louise when was the last time you walked the dogs why are you trying to bring in random things no that's just one example of shit that would go sideways if I wasn't there two days no it's not two days it's like two weeks bro that's not true i louise like loves the dogs but never takes them for walks she's too busy for walks everyone oh you were though the baby in this situation because all i wanted to do was talk about a grown-up problem and you walked away you thought that i was going to follow you and you took our son and you walked away towards the shops and you thought because normally i'm a talker out immediately because i hate sitting with with the idea that someone like hates me and I hate like not having confidence in that in between time where I'm like panicking that someone's going to leave.

31:13Louise: So typically I would always like run after you to try and have the conversation to resolve it immediately and people please to keep the peace. I did think that you were - Did you think I was going to run after you? I was walking like 20 minutes and I was like, oh fuck, she's actually not coming. And do you know what I did instead? I went - You sat in the car. I'm going to get in the car and I'm going to like threaten that I might drive home and leave you with, leave without you guys. By the way, if I was by myself, you would have driven off. Dorit just fucks off when she's had the massive argument with Carl Richards and Erica and she just takes the van and everyone's dumbfounded because they're like, wait, what do you mean?

31:48Louise: Oh yeah. I watched that episode with you. Did you? Or if not with you in the bath. I saw, Ryan was watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on his own in the bath the other day. So you thought I was going to go chase after you? And I felt so empowered as I sat in the car and I started doing. emails or something what you're much better at you're because you're so reactive like you can you can take a shot or sharpen a blade quick but then you get over it equally as quick yeah for me i'm like for i stew on it for a while i'm like okay so we've got a breakdown of these different argument styles and we can look into what it looks like who it happens to why it happens and what can help so if you're someone that says something hurtful and then later regrets it which I would argue Louise is this person.

32:34What it looks like, you get mean, you get sarcastic, or you say something you don't mean. Correct?

32:40Louise: Sometimes. Who it happens to, people who didn't grow up with safe ways to express emotion and learn to protect themselves through anger. Did you have safe ways to express emotion? Yeah, maybe not. No, I definitely bottled a lot of stuff up. Right, okay. So it's just canned up. So this is really interesting. Ready to snipe. Yeah. Why it happens. When your nervous system shifts into fight mode, it reacts before you have time to process what you're really feeling. Striking out becomes a way to regain control. Yes, you love control or protect yourself from vulnerability. Yes. My God, this is you. Yeah, you don't have the time to like process the emotions.

33:19Louise: So it's a really quick reaction that feels protective. okay so if you're if you're if you're with louise and you can really resonate with this stuff here's what might help you can step away for a moment if you feel intensity building walk shake out your hands or engage your body to release the tension sorry imagine me literally just being like do you know what's funny about this though in arguments before now i've actually told louise to go and walk and touch a tree and come back to me because i'm like you need to you need to like break this up immediately. Do you remember this? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:54Louise: But we both would do that. This gives your nervous system space to process. Then when you're more grounded, try to identify what's underneath the anger. Often it can be hurt, fear or shame and repair becomes much more possible when you can name what you're really feeling. It's actually quite a good breakdown, yeah. Yeah, really helpful. Can't wait for you to break mine down. Yeah, but what? I just want to re-clarify something to anyone that's listening. I might get like sarcastic or say something I don't mean, but I'm not actually angry. oh no you're angry no I'm not angry I think I'm frustrated but that is helpful I think I should always I have learned more now to step away which is why I sat in the car I have evolved in the last couple of years it's always better to say less in life so step away and actually just well in fact I just copy what you do step away and ignore which is really infuriating for the other person let's go through yours okay so you like to isolate what that looks like is walking away disappearing avoiding the follow-up i don't avoid the follow-up i just need time to let you simmer down that's true as you know you are quite good at doing the follow-up like sometimes you've even bought flowers from sainsbury's down the road why do you have to say from sainsbury's why not like a lovely florist florist it doesn't matter where the flowers are from as long as they're white okay good um well white like a little white flag who it happens to people who were left to deal with their emotions alone or who learned that distancing themselves was the only way to feel safe interesting i probably during my childhood didn't know that i could express it so i dealt with them alone yeah yeah did you yeah why it happens when emotional intensity feels like a threat the nervous system may pull you into shutdown or flight.

35:45Louise: Distancing can feel the safe, distancing can feel like the safest way to regain control. When I'm in a tassel with you or a tangle, you really want the control. So I'm like, I'm out. I'll just let you have control. Yeah. What do you mean do you? Louise, you are a control freak in every sense. Yeah, but listen, you actually are. No, sometimes you'll get really angry and be horrible as well. Depends what, I mean, okay. You're now getting defensive. That's what's happening. Yeah, yeah. Let's just get through this before we actually have an argument. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What might help? Yeah. Let the other person know you need space and reassure them you're not leaving the relationship.

36:27That would actually be quite helpful for you, wouldn't it?

36:29Louise: That actually would. Yeah, because that's what I was saying is that I always want to resolve things really quickly because I panic that even though it's someone just running away and locking himself in a room, my brain weirdly goes to, they're leaving me it's over the relationship's over and there's nothing i can do to get them back so if we were in an argument insecurity so okay if we're in an argument this is going to be really helpful if this works if i say something along the lines of um i just need some space i'm and but i'm not going to leave the relationship but imagine we're like on oxford street and we're like with a four-year-old is that is that enough for you um will you be like okay cool go yeah probably but in the but the the practicality of like us both all needing because equally we don't want to fuck up our saturday so it's like you needing you saying that and like i'm not going to leave the relationship but i'm just going to step away and then me needing to resolve it or like saying silly things it's like in my mind it always just makes sense to resolve as quickly as possible so you don't ruin a precious day and precious time sorry but if you really need that space to step away because of your childhood that's okay i can't wait to test run this and get back to you all i'll be like louise i just need some space but i'm not leaving the relationship and then you'll be like yeah great and i'll be like i'll come back this evening and we'll we'll we'll fix this a whole evening later well i don't know what time yeah that evening you know it could it could be that afternoon that we've had the argument by that point in my mind i'm like it's over and i'm already down at the gym preparing for my next relationship i used to do that all these memories are coming back.

38:07Louise: When I would think that we were breaking up, I would already be in the gym trying to get a revenge bod. Anyway, watch this space. We will report back probably next week. I'm sure we'll have an argument this weekend to talk about.

38:35spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home. A BetterHelp ad. Hold on. One second. I just need to...

39:07What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk.

39:15Louise: With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com slash randompodcast for 10 % off your first month of online therapy.

39:35Louise: I wanted to move into some slightly more culturally relevant conversation. What's been coming up on your feed recently, Louise? I've seen a lot of trad wife material. Same. Have you? Have you? Not as much as you, but yeah. Wait, that's so interesting. We've both received that. So as people that probably consume quite different content, we've both seen a lot of trad wifery. I just wanted to say that because I love it when you used to always say midwifery. But we've both seen trad wives in all their glory, living on beautiful farms, kneading bread in sort of sepia toned filters, flower arranging and prairie wife outfits with multiple kids and no job except for the fact that they are actually filming everything that they do and sharing it online.

40:21Louise: for anyone that doesn't know what trad wife is it's a social media subculture of women who embrace ultra conservative gender roles intentionally choosing to stay at home manage domestic chores and submit to their husband's leadership okay that's a helpful definition and typical things that a trad wife might do are bear lots of children um need bread at home whilst filming it wear lots of cream and white pretty brody brodery anglaise struggle with that term outfits um make ridiculously complicated lunches for their kids there's a lot of homeschooling involved and they often live in beautiful sort of white stucco homes surrounded by lavender fields or other sort of farmland that sounds more like a fantasy versus a reality i think that that's the point and that's probably why people are so interested in it because especially as people two people that live in a highly urban area that is surrounded by you know acceleration and burnout i think that there is something that feels attractive about it because it's so different to the life that we're living and i think that that's exactly what it's designed to do correct you know we're living in a time now where ai is everywhere and the reality is is that ai cannot replace those sorts of behaviors and those roles and so it feels like a real step away from that but the reality is is how realistic is living that sort of life like that simple life for most people they can't just not work for most people they can't just hand over their body and their womb to their husband so there are a few key examples I think of people that have blown up across the internet so there's one lady called Nara Smith who's got an enormous following probably around 10 million followers on Instagram she's married to a guy called Lucky Smith who actually interestingly I used to follow years ago he's a probably because he looks a bit like Leonardo DiCaprio and he's they're both quite young and um she's really lent into this trad role he actually was brought up as a Mormon and so there are quite often uh quite heavy cultural beliefs amongst these trad wives and she's stopped working and handed over her life I suppose to look after him and their family and they've had four children in a really short space of time and she wears these highly exotic outfits like sort of couture dresses with hats in the latest ones she looks like she's going to ask it to slave away in the kitchen making handmade sprinkles to decorate on ice creams and making her own like marshmallows and things that ultimately you could go to the supermarket and buy for 10p so is it well not 10p because actually inflation um you know a couple of pounds so is it actually the best use of time and what is the message that these people are sending to a global audience but i don't know if i'm missing anything or being naive but isn't this just they've identified they've identified a style of content that engages well because it takes people so far away from their real lives and their realities and it leaves them with a feeling of simplicity and nostalgia so they're like well i'll just i'll just pretend to live this life the irony is to live that lifestyle you have to have more in order to get less so like nara smith for example she's 10 million with 10 million followers she's probably got a few million in the bank she's able she's able she's able to portray a certain lifestyle that she might not have lived and she's maybe still not even living now but do you get what i'm saying like totally i think there's an element of like it is a trend of content so ultimately it's friction maxing because it's going so far to one end of a spectrum that it's going to create a lot of feelings and emotions amongst the people that are viewing it and people have a lot to say about it and then something inevitably goes viral because people are really split on something that's really provocative um so yes i also think that what's interesting is that these women are building multi-million dollar or pound media companies where they are making so much money that actually even though they are submissive to their husbands in the sort of sort of vision that they're giving off they're actually making more money than them yeah right like they are actually now the workhorse they're the fucking workhorses their husbands have told them to stop working and to have loads of kids so that they're doing all of the domestic duties around the house popping out these kids but then they're actually also working and slaving away filming everything they're doing so they're not only being like domestic gods but they're also slaves you know that you know that there's housekeepers and nannies involved well yeah i think nora smith has a team of like 20 people there's another lady called ballerina farm who is a really intelligent highly skilled ex-juliar ballerina who gave up everything when she married her husband for his beliefs and morals and she has had eight children with him and gave up her entire career well yeah there's like a big gap between what we see online and the reality i don't know i just feel like there's there's opposing there's opposing forces the whole time between are we pushing for like equality are we pushing for like very present dads and all that sort of stuff or are we going down the the old school patriarchal kind of system of what you're painting here when you start confusing and blurring lines between what does feminism mean what does it look like what does masculinity mean and look like what sort of what's the undertone of this content is it bigger i think one of the things that's quite worrying is that almost a third of gen z men agree that a wife should obey her husband and i suppose people like the ballerina farm and nara smith are obeying their husbands in their life choices and so are they good role models but it does i guess it also puts on a bit of pressure for women that are working and trying to parent when you see other women sacrificing their careers to just look after their kids like you feel inevitably you feel a bit guilty like I do sometimes watch that and think oh well maybe I should quit everything that I'm doing and go and like live in a little cottage somewhere and just sack it all off so that's worrying if i'm being influenced there's a much larger conversation at play here because i think if i'm talking from a gen z male perspective there's probably an uncertainty around what what does family life look like what does the role of a man look like and for a woman as well so when you've got the manosphere who are pumping quite an aggressive uh narrative which is hyper hyper masculine and and like and then you've got the the other side of that which is this whimsical magical fantasy version of a pretty woman in a white flowing dress with like baking in one hand and a baby in the other it's like it's hard it's hard not to look like that look at that and be like that's rather lovely so i can see how gen z would think that maybe that's the the version i'm not saying that i agree with that i'm not saying that i agree with the idea that a wife should obey her husband i don't quite know what that means i don't know what the context is i don't know how you apply that but i'm saying for a gen z male at this time you've got probably they're probably connected let's be honest the the mask the the manosphere stuff is probably connected to this trad wife stuff and that someone in some powerful position is trying to push a certain narrative which is very manipulative and it's it's very confusing and um pretty difficult for a young man to wade through i think it's come at quite a weird time maybe there was always going to be a sort of tipping point where things started moving the train stopped and started going backwards because we've worked so hard to um create a world where women's voices matter and women have more choice and we should live in a world where we are totally equal and we have access to the same things historically that never existed we're coming into a place where that does exist and now we're being fed the bullshit that like women shouldn't work or have jobs or have like autonomy and that we should obey our husbands and they should be the ones in power and they're the ones with money and we should know less and we stay at home and we mother children it feels like a total reversal of everything that we've worked really hard to create for women it's like pretty anti-feminism to be honest i think in general and it's really weird because then we're also living at a time where there's like a huge population crisis and no one's having kids so there are so many conversations that are being thrown up and like I don't even know where I sit on any of it to be honest I hope that people like us feel like they can exist with a mutual respect for the other sex and they can do the things that they want and then they don't need to be controlled because there are many cultures in the world and many religions where women still have no fucking choice over what they get to do with their life and we're so removed from it here in the UK but we're not that far removed when we're then seeing it on social media again so I think we we are very very fortunate I just think there's so much stuff that's plastered in front of us and it does become a little bit distracting and it does become a little bit of a of a wobble because you're like oh should i be doing it more like that is that what you would prefer and then this whole distraction and taking us off course it just moves us away from who we inherently are as a man and as a woman yeah so you lose your identity so i just think it's i think that in the world of content creation because we're in it like we should be creating content that is an extension of our authentic lives and our and our authentic selves and i think that any messaging that's attached to it shouldn't be you must do it this way it's just it's a reflection of us as people but i think on the other side as well i think yeah i think the content that we consume should be should be taken with a pinch of salt because to use nara smith as the example whilst her videos might look perfectly polished and just like everything's in order beautiful four kids amazing kitchen backed onto open fields and everything else around it will be teams of people yeah and a lot of money a lot of money it's actually a very expensive lifestyle I love the position of creating content that's an extension of our world and I like doing it in a really meaningful way.

52:02But what I don't like is when people become so deeply impacted by something in that space that knocks them off and makes them feel inadequate or that they should be doing something different. I just think be cautious with how you consume content.

52:18Okay, so the listener question of this week, Louise. Yeah. You haven't updated us since the five days post IVF egg retrieval. How did it go?

52:26Louise: Well, we have some really exciting news. We got the results from our latest IVF cycle, which is our third one. And I have to say, I was not expecting this only because the drop off with our other cycles has been really, really significant when we've had them PGTA tested, which basically checks for chromosomal abnormalities or normalities. and normally they should be at our age about 50 percent and we had so when the lady called me and told told me that we had five embryos that were euploid which means that they're good to go I honestly actually was so shocked I swore I think I said like I don't fucking believe you because she said that they checked six and I was under the impression that we only had five to even check so i was hoping for one or two and i'd been having dreams that we got one which would still be great because one is one is one yeah and it only takes one and yeah so anyway i was really really shocked and so five i actually thought that she had given us information i was like can you triple check because i was told that you were only sending five off that they waited for some of them to get to day seven i thought that the second cycle we had four we did so this Yeah, isn't that mad?

53:48Louise: They're increasing each time. You're sort of giving me the impression that it's like significantly better, but it's just the difference of one. I think because we got less eggs retrieved this third time. Okay, well here we go. And less fertilized. And though they were looking really strong at the beginning, quite a lot of them dropped off between day three and five. Okay. And last time when we got four, we had eight embryos that got tested. Yes. So it was textbook 50 % drop off. The first time we did it, we had one embryo that got tested. Yeah, yeah. And it was textbook 50 % drop off because it was either going to stick or not.

54:20Louise: Right, right. And then this time I thought we were checking five and suddenly I find out that they checked six and five of them were good. Got you. I understand how this is much better. So maybe we all did something really good. I mean, I have been supplementing like mad. You were flipping smoking and like having a sauna the day before. so happy days come on yes right great i understand it better now that's a great i didn't actually know that before yeah no the drop-off is normally quite high and for people that are in their rising 40 it tends to be at least a 50 drop-off so it's so so just to clarify we have uh nine successful euploids in the freezer yeah which actually sounds really overwhelming what are we going to do with nine children i've got nine children ten with leo oh wow Ryan's freaking out he's like oh now we've got nine that means we could definitely probably have two more um I think the hopeful message here is that nine for anyone that does get zero from their first round you could potentially get more so don't give up hope we need to move on I'm freaking out and the thing that bothers me is that there's remember that there's an entire industry it's a billion dollar industry that is built around people's infertility and there were so many things that we didn't know during our first round so many things that we didn't know during our second round i feel like now that it's our third round we understand the process a lot more but also we now know and i wish clinics told people to take the things at round one i don't know how you're still speaking I can't even move my mouth.

56:05Because I'm just, imagine like nine little tadpoles in a briefcase.

56:09Louise: Well, yeah, we're not going to end up like Ballerina Farm with eight children. No, but just like, there's potentially nine of our children just in a freezer. Like, what? That is actually quite overwhelming. Like, how are you not freaking out about this? That's like so unbelievably wild. So that feels really positive. We've gone from having zero about nine months ago. To nine. to having nine jeez so what happens next so the next step is we've both received an email which i know you found quite shocking um with a surrogate profile um i sent a load of questions so waiting to hear back from them and then i suppose we would we would schedule in a call to meet with with her and see whether we think that she's the right person to help us i just want to know at this point i'm not ready to go on that conversation but can you tell me about what happens to the nine do they just stay in the freezer until we find the match and then we send one over no so i'm hoping actually next week that they're gonna get shipped all of them no i think the first four maybe because there has to be a three-month quarantine period anyway so you wouldn't be able to implant an embryo that was only frozen this month yeah you have to wait three months because you have to do blood tests again to make sure that you haven't got antibodies that show that you have HIV chlamydia any sexually transmitted infections or any other important things so yeah should we have some of your recommendations for the week then or sorry sorry not some should we have a recommendation yes yeah I'm not even sure if this is a recommendation but it is something that I dip my toe into so Megan our lovely sister-in-law uh she has been doing quite a lot of trashy tv watching and she recommended a show called off campus okay and I stuck it on when you and Leah were out and was it great and it is great but it is light easy watching and it's basically soft porn there's a lot of very attractive people milling around a university campus hooking up hooking up like within the first 10 minutes you literally see like the most incredible pair of boobs you've ever seen in your life amazing times two actually the opening scene i'm pretty sure is this like lady lady i said girl i think she's only 19 the actress fair play with like her chest out cycling around the campus this sounds like the start of american i think you'd actually quite like it it's not no no no it's like a little bit more tasteful and less like comedic than american pie um but yeah it's it's kind of kind of good.

58:52Where'd you find it? Netflix.

58:54Louise: It is on Netflix. What's your recommendation? Also in the entertainment space. Oh, lovely. Very, very different. What is it? Very different to what you've described. I would actually be interested. I won't be watching this. I don't think you would actually. But I kind of want to try it on you to see what you think because if I tell you the guy who makes it and who's in it, you're immediately going to laugh at me. I'd probably be uninterested. Oh, let me guess. Jason Momoa. Correct. Oh, no. It's another one of those. What, has he done another show? it's the same show but it's a season two it's called on the room they got that for it's called on the i i am not it is the best thing i've ever seen honestly what is so good i just love everything about jason momoa he is like such a genuine great person each episode follows a passion or a hobby of his and it illuminates people that he's met along his life or and it it can be like from way back when he was younger or it can be present so and when I say people that have inspired him I mean like photographers like Todd Idaho or an artist or it can be a guitar player or it can be these like very very talented low-key people in parts of the world like Japan or America in these bike sheds that build the most unbelievable big Harley Davidson fan of like old Harley Davidsons.

1:00:18And each episode will follow one of these themes in his life. And he will bring with him the story of, of these really talented people that have had an impact on him. And it's just shot in the most beautiful way. It's super creative. It's like, it's like the most beautiful form of art. The music's epic. It's everything I love.

1:00:36Louise: Yeah. It's everything I love. You should reach out to him. Mate, he is quite well known and doesn't have time to speak to me, You're actually rubbing your chest like you're all nervous by the idea of it. No, because I honestly, I'm such a big fan. Would you call him a role model? Yes. Is he an icon? Yes. Do you fancy him? Yeah. Fair play. Yeah. Anyone that likes Jason Momoa, go give it a whirl. Wait, I'm trying to remember what platform it's on. My long head, guys. It's on Discovery Plus and I think it's on HBO as well. I feel like not many people know about it as well. So I feel like I really feel like I've given it.

1:01:09Louise: Because no one's watching it or talking about it. I feel like I've given it. No, fuck off it, G. she's like yeah whatever no it's got guitars in it you love guitar players oh and she doesn't mind a strip cycle so maybe she can come up with the bike stuff oh stunning honestly I'm going to make you all watch an episode if you all want to fall asleep this tonight no no no then watch it I'm going to invite you all around for a party to watch it oh god no please guys send us an email to hsss at srproductions.co.uk and let us know are you more on the room or are you more off campus it's really important for us to do some market research because we want to continue talking about the things that you love and i have a feeling you like trad wives and off campus and i'm not sure whether you're a big correct me if i'm wrong just watch on the room it will everything we've discussed today that that series will answer it all that will remind you of what the world is about well that's a good point he's a he's a positive role model so we prefer him to andrew tate if you guys enjoyed any of the content in today's episode you think any of your friends or family might enjoy it too please do share the episode it means so much to us to be able to broaden our horizons broaden our reach and also make sure to follow and subscribe us across all platforms especially Instagram because Hannah's got a target and she wants to hit 100 ,000 followers by the end of June good point we're getting close maybe we do a giveaway stay tuned alright guys see you next week see ya bye

1:03:07sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too? Alright, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast experts set up on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app.