“One of the Greatest Gifts Leo Has Given Us Is…” | The Biggest Lessons We’ve Learnt From Our Son

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1:08Have we changed our detergent or something at home? Because we're both smelling.

1:14Louise: I can't stop sweating at the moment. I got a waft of you before you sat down. I was like, geez, that's ripe. But then I was like, you know what? I can't even say anything because I'm also quite ripe at the moment. Are you? What do you mean, right? You sound like we're a pair of bananas, rotting. See, it's easier when my body is trying to get rid of something, some sort of toxin or I don't know. But every now and again, thankfully it is every now and again, I get quite smelly in the armpit area. And I notice that you're the same. Our room, when we left the house today, stank of feet. Feet? Yeah, it smelled like a university dormitory.

1:53Louise: This is a problem. I think my sweating is down to the hormones because I've noticed the last 10 days have been really bad. Like it's not just the smell. That's at least an excuse. What's my excuse? Actually, they're like pouring. It's like I've got a leak under my armpits. I actually saw a video on TikTok yesterday and I think it was Tally getting Botox under her armpits. Oh, that sounds really painful. I think that would be the cure for the sweating problem that you have. Mine's temporary. Well, I don't have a problem. I don't know if I've done something different, have we eaten something weird?

2:29Louise: Have we got food poisoning? Well, I feel like there'd be other signals if I had food poisoning. I'm good in that regard, but I'm just smelling a bit weird. Maybe we're a bit ill. Yeah, I think my body has quite a good excretion process. I was actually thinking about this yesterday when all of the hail was coming down and then it was really sunny and then it was hailing again. that loads of people I know are sick because it's a lot to contend with this weather. You think that you're going outside and you should be wearing a summer dress, but it's actually Baltic. And you are like the most healthy person I know.

3:07Louise: Baseline health is always there. Yeah, separate conversation. But yeah, I did a podcast and it was like reviewing my blood work and they were like, dude, you are healthy. Oh, that's good. But then I was like, hmm. Explain the sweaty pits. Well, no, because I've noticed you've started having lots of baths and you keep saying you're really cold at the moment, which is so unlike you. And sometimes you can get the cold sweats. I've noticed that my armpits are streaming and they've been like that for the last 10 days. Your nose does the same thing. My nose just permanently leaks and I don't know why.

3:44Louise: It's like fluid is coming from somewhere. You're like a soggy little badger. It's kind of weird. Ryan hates it. I'm so attractive. But the armpit thing I'm going to put down to the hormones. Well, that's a valid excuse. I don't really have an excuse. I don't like to wear a lot of deodorant. Neither do I. Because I quite like to be free and to lean into what my body's trying to tell me. So I'll apologise for the smell. I quite like your smell, though, which you know, because you find it odd when I try to cozy up into your armpits at night and I like take a big whiff. Is that really, can anyone else relate to that?

4:25Louise: It's quite comforting, isn't it? We like the horrible smells that the people we love produce. Yeah, but your face is like tiny and my armpit feels like it just engulfs your face and I'm like, I don't know if that's nice for you, man, but you put yourself there. It's actually delicious. That's so weird. In the same way that I love Leo's breath. Bad breath. No, that's weird. That's weird. Because it's him and it's so pure and beautiful. I'm like, I'm very much into scents and smells. I always smell these guys. I'm like, oh, you smell great. You don't smell great. I never wear fragrance. I need to start more.

5:04Louise: I'm sorry. Should I start wearing the Gucci Flora again? Yeah, I do love Gucci Flora, yeah. If I want to get Ryan into bed, it's the Gucci Flora. and I also like smells and I fancy Hannah. She smells so good. You mean Chuckles? Chuckles. Oh, such a cute name. I actually really noticed this weekend when I was getting ready for this award ceremony how bad my sweating was and I had to ask everybody in the room for a deodorant. It was quite awkward because I didn't know any of those people that were there. First time I'd met most of them. Mate, I've had people in the past offer me some deodorant, which turns out to be a roll-on.

5:45And I'm like, bruh, I'm not sharing your roll-on. And they're like, no, that's cool. Just go for it. I'm like, no.

5:51Louise: But wait, have you asked or they've actually said you smell here, have some roll-on? I can't, like if I'm in the changing room in a gym and I'm like, oh, I forgot my wash bag and I brought you a deodorant. They'll sling me their roll-on as if it's like a normal transactional thing between, and I'm like, no, dude. What, with like a hair on it? Like a lingering hair stuck in the juice? I know that the roll-ons are much better in terms of environmental sort of perspective, but how hygienic really is it? Because I feel like I'm just smushing in the bacteria in the sweat and just masking it and scooping up other fluid.

6:27Louise: Yeah, I don't think I... It's not really a question. It's just kind of how I feel about roll-ons. I don't know what the solution is. I'm at the stage now where I'll use my fragrance, which is whatever it is, Tom Ford or whatever, and I'm like, oh, fuck it. I'll spray that. Maybe that's it. That's the problem. Maybe that's it. Yeah. Fuck, that's it. It's too, like, perfumed for my pits. Yeah. They're having an allergic reaction to the oud wood. Ah, my pits are like, okay, I got it. That's it. That's literally it. Makes so much sense. Do you like the smell of my armpits? Like, in the same way that I like the smell of yours?

7:01No, definitely not, dude.

7:02Louise: So I need to keep that smell away? No, yes, mate. No. No, the whole pheromones and like sexual hormones doing their talking through smells and scents. No, yours sends me packing the other way. Right, what sends you packing the right way? In terms of nice smells? Well, actually, yeah. I do like nice smells. I'll tell you, actually, I will give you a compliment. Your hair is looking very like Henry Cavill's in Superman. Whoa. You've got a really nice little walnut whippy thing. Whoa. Like a little curl tufting out at the top of your ear. Whoa. It's very charming. I'm just going to sit in this moment for a second.

7:49Louise: Okay. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the BAFTAs. Go on, tell me about it. I hadn't been for 13 years. To the BAFTAs? Isn't that mad? Since we last won. And it was 13 years ago. You won and you're like, hey, coming back. Yeah, because in a way, obviously it's cooler to go to an awards ceremony if you've actually been nominated for something or if you work on a project that's being celebrated. So that proportion of people probably takes up about 50 % of the room and then the other 50 % are actually just there to wear a nice dress. And get their red carpet moment. And get their red carpet moment with a full face of makeup and hair like sculpted with a lot of hairspray.

8:34Louise: Right, go on. and I felt like slightly like a spare part anyway I arrived on my own I'd had I think I was still slightly struggling um with my hormones having a bit of a sort of hormone crash post the retrieval because when I was at home getting ready with lovely crystal who does my makeup quite regularly the sort of process was happening and then about 15 minutes before I had to leave I looked in the and I was like I don't recognize myself and I felt like quite panicky actually and I kind of thought what am I doing like how this is not how I should be spending my Sunday you were you'd taken Leo up to go and do something cool which was very kind of you to give me a bit of space to get ready and do the whole glam thing but it just didn't feel right and it also felt really weird that I was then going on my own and I had a moment where I looked in the mirror and I was like I just don't love actually how I look and then I thought god what is all of this for but everybody around me kind of said no no they reassured me that like I was I was looking the part like this was how I was supposed to look and that I should go and enjoy the event anyway I then arrived and I was sat in a taxi on my own being like okay i had a little pep talk with myself message this girl darcy who was supporting roman kent so sort of representing from insanity and she came out to get me if she hadn't been there i would have potentially turned home turn around in the taxi and gone home um because i needed like a chaperone like it's really overwhelming there's an enormous red carpet there are so many different zones there are so many celebrities there are so many big people there um lots of like screaming fans and lots of eyes on you

10:36Louise: so I finally sort of weaved my way through all of the crowds and found myself to the queue for the red carpet which is the big moment that obviously everybody is there for to do the kind of like photo board moment and I literally looked like turned around and the person in front of me was like this really like beautiful sort of like striking very tall lady in this white outfit I didn't realize who she was at the time um I was intrigued and then like I turned to the other side and Spencer literally came running past me and then it was it turned out that it was Vogue that was standing right in front of me so of all the people that could have been there in that moment the first people that I bumped into that I knew who I was standing with then for 40 minutes in the keep this record was Spencer and Vogue was it nice and I was just then stood next to Darcy who I'd never met before and we both just looked at each other and we're like was it was it was it nice to catch up or was it weird it was nice it was kind of funny so the face that I just pulled then which is a bit like when you're so like overwhelmed that all you can do is laugh like it was it was funny we basically just laughed and and I don't think I've actually seen Spencer probably since the last BAFTAs we never bump into each other I have friends that are whose kids are at the same school as their kids so they sort of see each other really regularly and and other people in the industry but we've managed somehow to avoid each other for I think over a decade and I've never properly met Vogue and I admitted that actually I'd used some of her Bare by Vogue body lotion on my arms.

12:19Louise: She was like, oh, that's good of you. No, and we actually had a nice time. Nice. He actually addressed some of the things that I've been through over the last four years, so the sort of health complications since having Leo, which I wasn't expecting. and um yeah i thought that was kind of kind of him and then he does the thing that he always does which is just always try to make every single person he has a conversation with laugh a lot which you clearly did yeah which we did so we had a bit of a laugh and and then that was that good um nice and then i spent most of the evening actually the rest of the evening with Millie who we gave birth to our children so I gave birth to Leo and she gave birth to her second her daughter Aurelia on exactly the same day at the same time in the same hospital and she has reached out to me a number of times since because we both evolved a hell of a lot as people and we have you know some things in common as well as like many many many amazing memories from our like late teens early 20s so it was quite nice to spend a bit of time with her and it did feel like this kind of full circle moment that we were meeting again unintentionally matching in gold outfits but the thing I find a little bit tough in these environments is that I am I always will feel standing next to people like Millie or Vogue or you know a lot of other people in this sort of celebrity space I always feel like the really small one and and as you mentioned she has these on real abs.

14:02Small in stature wise or small in small?

14:04Louise: I think just like small, like definitely in stature. So that's an obvious physical attribute. Okay, so are you saying you feel small as in I feel like a small person? As in, you feel, not insignificant, but you feel a little bit... I do feel like a little bit insignificant. Okay, well that's complete baloney isn't it? Isn't that silly? And it took me right back because I haven't felt insignificant for ages. And maybe I've just not hung out with any tall people or stood next to anyone that's super duper glamorous. But when you are surrounded by like total 10 out of 10s and everyone is unreal and they look like they're straight off the Met Gala red carpet, it does make you feel a little bit out of place.

14:53Louise: Like I'm not sure that I was sort of genetically designed to be there. But then again, there are like a lot of short famous people. You've got like Sabrina Carpenter, Kylie Minogue, Madonna, Tom Cruise. Let's throw Tom Cruise into them. Well, yeah, because he's a short dude, but he's a global icon. Yeah. So I shouldn't let it affect the way that I feel. Sly Stallone, another example. Very short, but made Rocky. The thing is, it's about men though, is that like, Sly Stallone, his thing has never been like to try and be glamorous. Mate, he's the Italian stallion. He is glamorous. Is he glamorous?

15:34No, but I'm trying to, I'm trying to like.

15:36Louise: You're trying to make me feel better, which is actually really beautiful. I'm trying to make you feel better. So I had like a bit of that feeling of feeling like a bit of an, I had, I was triggered and brought back to that time where I felt like a bit of an imposter. being on red carpet. It's all about energy. And some people just hold themselves in this really high esteem. That's energy. And they look around and they're really poised and they're not giving too much away. Whereas I'm like a little... Yeah, but that's part of the charm of Louise talking. I'm like, hey guys, what should we chat about?

16:07Louise: And I'm like friends to everybody. No, you're doing yourself a disservice. You were on the red carpet looking equally fabulous in gold. You didn't have your abs out, but you used to have abs that would have dazzled everyone there. Times have changed, mate. Times have changed. Now, this time I was actually in Spanx. I don't know what that is, but... Do you know what a Spanx are? Spanx. You know, like those sort of nude pants that go like right up to under your cleave, under your boobs. So they're pants, but they're like high-waisted and they're quite tight, so they suck you in. I'm amazed that you've never come across these before.

16:39I thought that was what Skims were.

16:41Louise: Quite similar. So Skims has actually really glorified like a simple knicker, which is quite a wonderful thing for people. Is that what women are wearing? No, I mean, it wasn't like the, it wasn't a short scenario. I love that. Gee, that's like a full tightening bodysuit. That's like a wetsuit, bandeau wetsuit. Is that what women wear? They wear wetsuits underneath their cocktail frocks. Sometimes they do. Yeah. This is more just like pants that came up. What is this world? Like covered my belly button and also my stoma back because it is a new thing for me to have to contend with when I'm thinking about black tie dressing and trying to look good.

17:20But it's a confidence thing. It's a confidence thing.

17:23Louise: Well, I was just going to say that I started to actually feel a bit homesick when I was there, which is mad because I'd only been away from there for about four hours, which I've never had before. And I left early because I'd preempted that I was going to have a stoma leak with this ridiculous Spanx scenario. that was holding me in quite tightly, leaving nowhere really for my stoma bag to move. And yeah, I left at kind of 5.36 and came home to you boys because that was really ultimately where I wanted to spend my Sunday evening. And actually that's probably really selfish. And I know that last week we'd spoken about these events and how a lot of people do go to them just to be photographed.

18:06Louise: And how some people actually do U-turns at the red carpet, they'll go have their photograph and then leave. And I couldn't believe it. And I spoke to people when I was there. I said, have you heard that people do that? And they were like, yeah, I've done that. Or yeah, so-and-so did that last week. You were trying to assess the situation and be like, yeah, dude, I'm going to do it. Yeah, but I mean, ultimately, I did have a good excuse and I then did have a problem when I got home. So I was really, really grateful to have dodged a bullet. It sounds like you were unsure and a little bit angry and upset before even getting there.

18:39so maybe you should have just listened to your intuition and be like you know what I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing I'm just going to park this one

18:44Louise: you know what I think the lesson is is next time we should go together fine I don't mate I can dance my way down on a red carpet if you want me to really big bollocks over here I'm ready I shared a video on Instagram last week and people went mad for it so it was a video with me and Leo dancing in the garden, making pizza. Oh yeah, obviously. Listening to his favourite song, Running Up That Hill. Yeah, getting Kate Bush back again. It's an amazing song and it happens to be his favourite song. And there are obviously so many reasons why I think that video is the most beautiful thing that I've ever watched.

19:28Louise: I didn't realise that it was going to resonate with so many other people. And I think one of the reasons that it did was because the message behind it, which I feel like I need to kind of lean into as much as possible whenever I'm feeling anxious, is that sometimes it's really important to be silly and to tap into, like, the things that used to bring you joy when you were a child. I find that the world feels really heavy at the moment. And to be totally honest, I think that there's such a relief that I get from hanging out with my son. and just hanging out with pure and innocent children. Do you feel the same?

20:11Yeah.

20:12Louise: I think people talk really regularly about how challenging being a parent can be. But I think people often forget to talk about how joyful it is as well. And I think I know that when I'm having a tough time or like a bad mental health moment, I really lean into spending time with Leo. Like if I'm slightly lacking confidence myself, if I'm feeling a bit anxious, and like he doesn't even know this. It's not like I'm telling him like, oh, I need you. and I'm like using him but I do kind of use him and I actually I remember when he was really young and lots of my friends had babies they used to talk about this thing that they would do to make themselves feel better that they would smell their babies and like literally sniff the shit out of them to like inhale their goodness and their purity because babies have the most beautiful smell and it's one of the things that keeps you going when you are having a tough time I find myself sometimes and you probably don't even know this if I'm feeling a bit wonky I'll go and stand in Leo's room it's like the space in the house that I feel it's like it's always the cleanest it's always the most organized um it's always the most uplifting it's colorful it's light he's got like a soft fuzzy carpet um and I just instantly feel like there's weight lifted from my shoulders Nice.

21:35Louise: I feel so lucky to have that, to be able to lean on and have those little techniques and movements. And I feel a bit sad almost for my parents because I never saw them leaning into that. I never saw them leaning into their silly side. They always were quite straight-laced and kind of kept it together. I never saw them being... Playing the air guitar in the garden. Playing the air guitar in the garden. And actually, weirdly, so I was at the King's Trust the day after the BAFTAs and I was sat a couple of boxes away from Your Royal Highness the King. And I don't know how to address him properly. And it was quite a long event.

22:16Louise: I think it was like five hours with no break. And he had to sit there throughout the entire thing, knowing that at any given moment there could be a phone on him and be utterly composed and serious and nodding and enjoying and smiling. he couldn't whisper to his wife the queen he couldn't go for have a snack, a little breadstick, he couldn't have a drink, he couldn't pick his nose, he couldn't unpick a wedgie like you've literally got to sit there and be graceful all the time How was he sat? Honestly, like this No, I actually didn't see his legs Does he have his hands like this? They'll be opposed that he's allowed to sit and he will have been briefed on it, it's probably just like hands on lap i don't know he's suddenly not sort of like got his arm around camilla going that was a good wasn't it or like cracking gas he's literally sat there just going and for someone he's quite old now for him to sit still for that length of time and be you know that is it's really impressive because i think everyone needs to just i don't know like lean into their true selves like we all have a bit of silliness in us don't we yeah it's really healing i've a really good friend of mine alice who lost her sister and her father in really quick succession she always said to me she was that one of the things that got her through the toughest times was just being silly now she doesn't take anything that she does in life terribly seriously it's the best way to be it's funny even though children aren't actively trying to teach us stuff they are teaching us many lessons every day and one of the greatest gifts that he has taught me is to like is to be authentically me I feel like I can do that around him because he's not judging me because he doesn't know what judgment is because he was born into this world without judgment and that is so cool like he's probably the only person that I know I can be a hundred percent myself with and so we dance like idiots with keep dancing pin rollers is that what you had yeah i'm like smashing rolling pins um i hope that he stays like that forever well at some point free from judgment at some point will become less cool in his mind and he won't be doing air guitar with us or you oh no or maybe he will maybe he will we don't know because we're different kinds of parents to our parents what's the biggest lesson, life lesson that he's taught you?

25:02someone asked me that question last week on a podcast, on a different podcast well I can definitely appreciate what you're saying in terms of maintaining that innocence and joy and the whole like bewilderment of just the the most ordinary things like a rolling pin can turn into an air guitar is pretty pretty cool but i think for me my mine's mine's i like to think i've got a combination of like those an appreciation for the silly moments but also the more like the stuff that sits deeper and for me leo has taught me what it looks like and feels like to be a real man. And having him around is...

25:52Having him around, but also having seen how impressionable and how much he looks up to us in different ways. It's like having a mirror up to you daily. And I think that's quite a... I don't know. It's a reminder that you've got to daily do better as a man and as a dad to Leo because he's watching. I find that because I'm so present and so involved with Leo, I'm aware of that mirror day to day.

26:35Louise: Yeah. So you're having to confront yourself every day. It's like when, I can't remember the example of how this happened, but it's like when people say, imagine there's a TV crew following you around every day. It's like your posture would be better, you wouldn't pick your nose, you'd walk with a bit more swag, you'd dress well. Having Leo around is a version of that, because I'm like, he is watching everything I'm doing, and he's copying a lot of it, to the point of changing his outfit to put his gilet on. He's like, can you do my hair? And I'm like, oh, yes, I can. But do you know what I mean?

27:09Those are small examples.

27:11Louise: Do you know what's so interesting about both of our answers is that your answer, in your answer, you're basically saying that Leo makes you feel like you have to be a better person. Whereas I feel like Leo allows me to basically be a worse person. No, that's not how I hear it. Like really lean into my roughness. That's not how I hear it. That's not how I hear it. But I think that's cool. But that's not how, no. Because you're not saying, it's not about being better or worse. No, I feel as though I can be more authentically just a bit rubbish, whereas he's actually making you try a bit harder to be like the best version of yourself.

27:49Louise: I think both are totally wonderful. It's not a kind of a tit for tat. It's just interesting that they are like almost at opposite ends of the spectrum. And you took him to a pump trap for the first time ever. And I don't think anyone's going to know what that is. No. I was I was amazed I mean my my middle bro lives six minutes from this pump track and I was like do you want to do you want to bring William down and we can have a little shred on the track and he's like what's a pump track and then I spoke to another mate and he's like what is a pump track it's um little ramps and bumps and like sweeping bends for bicycles you get a lot of BMX riders on there but you get lots of little kids and I took Leo there because when we went to Morzine for the um for the Rawson Adventure trip.

28:37We were talking about going back to Morzine this summer to go to the Downhill Mountain Bike Championships. And we were talking about pump tracks and that's kind of like my first introduction to it. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to find this. I've got to find something like this for Leo because Leo is at the age and stage now where, and this is no exaggeration, I'll be on my skateboard again because I know he's watching. I'm like, I've got a responsibility here. I've got to look cool. and like, I've got to try and get better on the skateboard. And he is riding his bike with one hand, like his head's cocked back and he's talking to me whilst I'm skating next to him.

29:13And I'm like, bruh, you need more challenge, don't you? So at that point I was like, let's get you on a pump track. So I took him to a pump track and we spent a whole Sunday there and I was terrified. I was holding the back of his seat, thinking that he's going to want me to hold him the whole way around. I promise you, first run. steep drop into the track and there's a gate that can be released. So it's like a bit like a bit like a horse in the gate. These gates were down, they were flat, but it was a steep drop in. He literally turns back and he's like, let go, I've got this. And I'm like, are you sure?

29:50Terrified, but I was like, I can't let him show, I'm terrified. So I just let my hand go and he goes straight down and his little legs are going like this, like fast and furious. And he climbs up the first ramp and he goes down the next one. and I'm like, oh my God, he's away. The kids on their like taller bikes, they were aged seven, eight up to 14. I was like, Deuce, do you come here like a lot? And they're like, yeah, we're here most of the time. I was like, when did you start? Because he's four. And they were like, what? He's four. Like he was like the hero of the moment.

30:18Louise: I think biking is his thing. Oh, I was like looking around at who, who can I speak to about this moment? Because this is phenomenal. Yeah. I was so proud of him. is so wonderful. Do you think that you give him all of the things that you wish that you had as a child? Yeah, dude. Stuff and opportunities. Mate, I love my dad and I've got really, really great memories, but I don't have anything quite in terms of like skating to nursery with my dad or going on a pump track in the Lake District. Yeah, it's not conventional. as in we don't pass many dads skating on the road with their kid on a little bike.

31:03No. What's another example? Oh, I went for a run with Sam on the weekend, on Saturday. So what I'm describing in terms of the pump track was Sunday. Saturday, me and Sam went for a 10K run and we've got Leo on his bicycle next to us, again, with the whole one hand like talking to us.

31:20Louise: It's usually like two and a half men. A gay couple, as in two blokes. I think they assumed that we were two surrogate fathers of Leo. Yeah. And they're like, you guys are dad goals. And I was like, let's just run with it, Sam. Let's go with it. But I kind of looked at that like moment and I was like, yeah, this is dad goals. Like he's cruising, we're running. We did 10K. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. You know how you mentioned letting go of Leo's bike? Let it go. Let it go. Yeah. Do you think that you're going to struggle when he gets a little bit older and becomes a bit more independent? Yeah. I've become very comfortable in...

32:08I love having him around. I love having the opportunity to skate to nursery because I'm like, I can just pretend to be cool at this point. And I can live in this... I love going running with him now. These little moments, I'm like, these are the precious moments and yeah I want to I want to live in this era

32:33Louise: do you think this is the best era yeah age-wise yeah yeah yeah yeah I do I do because he he's now just my best bud and we can do things together but I think if you were at the pump track and I mean this in a respectful way but I'm glad you weren't there because you would have been more fearful and i think that would have maybe made him less confident dropping in off that ramp yeah fair enough um i also think it's really cool like for you guys to do stuff together and then for me and him to do stuff together like he really likes it when he does stuff with each of us separately and gets like a a different tone from both of us and a bit of extra attention oh i get that i think i think that's yeah that's normal and great yeah i think that's a like a cool thing for him to have but yeah i i think me letting go of his little bottom in that saddle at the top of that ramp i was like oh this is maybe like he's not a baby anymore he's looking back at me being like i've got this you can let go literally like that yeah and i'm like oh my he's telling us what to do it's kind of crazy but at the same time really exciting Yeah.

33:44Louise: Which age do you think is going to be the most challenging? I'd imagine when he's 14, when he thinks he's cool and I'm uncool. When he thinks that he can shift some weight in the gym and I'll be like, hmm. Or when he gets his first girlfriend or when he sees his first action film and he's like, dad, I'm going to get a tattoo or an ear piercing. I'll be like, no, you're not. Wait, would you say no to a tattoo? Yeah, fuck it, yeah. Would you? I thought you'd, because you're so cool and relaxed and you've also got a couple of tattoos, I thought that you'd be fine with that. No, not at that age. Not at that age.

34:19He's always going to be my baby boy, isn't he? So even at 14 when he thinks he's getting into the big dog era, I'd be like, you're still my baby boy. And I can still manoeuvre you around.

34:33Louise: But that's your strength, is you're like, I'm bigger than you, I can move you. But that's my relationship with Leo, isn't it? like it's different for I won't be able to move him in two years mother and son is a special unique bond I will never be that's not my bond with him yeah but yeah I think the sort of teens will be quite tricky or when he starts back chatting like fucking Adonis are you a thefty

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36:26Louise: Do you reckon Leo will ever read your letters to him? I don't know. I don't have any expectations for him to. Maybe when he goes through those challenging years, when he becomes a teenager and actually communication is harder because they don't want to listen, you could subtly find a way of presenting them to him. Or like I think you mentioned before, you could print them out and put them in a book and he might just have the occasional little flick through. I don't think that he'll read them for a long, long time unless he reaches that emotional maturity much earlier in his life than his dad did.

37:02I think these letters will come at the right time, I hope. But I don't have any expectation. There's no, I'm not waiting for him. I will never be waiting for him to ask about them or read them. But there is a hope that when he's 21 and he's like maybe seeing me in a different way or seeing us as mum and dad, and maybe he starts to unfold this new respect and admiration for what we did for him. at that point he might be like you know those letters you mentioned can i take a look that would be that would be a really beautiful moment yeah but it might come quicker than you think

37:42Louise: because there's such a big part of what you do and obviously you've just reached this huge milestone you now have 10 000 subscribers that it will be something that we talk about around the house so we like he'll ask questions he's going to grow up quickly and be wanting to be involved in our day-to-day conversations so when you are maybe typing away on the weekend or on a like at 5am on a tuesday morning he might come down and be like oh hey dad what are you doing and he'll be like oh i'm just writing my next letter yeah true and it's only gonna go keep growing that's true i haven't really thought about that yeah it's so impressive i'm so proud of you for hitting that milestone thank you i do feel i feel very connected to those letters it's not that it was ever meant to be content for it for anyone else or even content it was just I wanted to reflect on my journey in this you know being a new dad why do you think there are so many people that enjoy following them I think because that well much like this podcast I think it comes from a very authentic honest place in my heart it's meant to be reflective it's meant to be it's like a I suppose it's like it's actually like a journal between me and Leo I write about I mean my most recent letter was about I've always been aware of the power of music like I'm very passionate about music as you know not that I'm musically talented but I really am moved by music I sort of created a playlist within the letter and I told Leo about childhood memories because my dad was very similar in this sense he would listen to music and as I've gotten older I've realized that maybe my dad was trying to tell me something through music cool yeah wow so I wrote about that wait when did you figure that out when you were writing your own letter as I'm writing I'm sort of I'm learning about myself and I'm I'm putting pieces of my own life together that's so cool it's so actually it's therapy for you for you 100 but when you when you let your creativity just flow in that sense, it's, it's actually just the best feeling.

39:55It's just the best feeling.

39:57Louise: Which, what songs did you put in that playlist? This will probably make you cry. I don't know. Don't.

40:06I'll give you one example.

40:08Louise: Can you not make me cry? No, I really want to do an episode without crying. Okay. I don't think you even know the first one, but one that the first one on my, on my bit of paper, was by Simon and Garfunkel, and it was called The Sound of Silence. The meaning of that is when people really get into a place where they can't articulate and they can't communicate, and there's this chasm of silence, and it's a very painful and upsetting period. And the whole song is about finding a way to communicate how you feel. Wow. That was the first one. That's a great song. To keep it in a more happy place, Louis Armstrong, What a Wonderful World, like very gravelly sound when I was when I was a baby in Australia I think this and I mentioned this in my letter I think that might have been the original seed of me being infatuated by music because every time it came on and it was obviously like a very sort of firm favorite at home it became known as uh Ryan's Australia song right the way through my life even now so if it comes on at home my mum and dad be like oh Ryan's Australia and that the words in that in in that song in in that um song is uh pretty poignant as well so i think do you remember listening to it in australia uh not necessarily in australia because i would have been two or three but i have memories of being in other parts of the world where that's come on and that's always your song yeah that's probably one of my earliest memories for i guess for anyone that wants to know the what else is on the playlist they'll need to subscribe to the letters to lear yeah how can they find that can they just google letters to leo we'll have a link in my instagram bio oh we can pop it in the show notes as well and you can go to my letters to leo.com it's got a website awesome but yeah i do love the letters do you read the list i have read i've read i've read a few of them how many have you written 32 32 i probably read eight to be honest um what i should read more of them and the reason why i think everybody should go and subscribe is because they are the way that you structure them is so digestible that they're like really um they're like the perfect length of writing they're like it's a really like uplifting way to start a Tuesday morning like having that land in your inbox and you always kind of write like a bit of a there's always like a message like a take-home message that you can take into your own life which I think is really really amazing I suppose really selfishly I spend so much time with you guys anyway so I kind of feel like I just live the real deal but then again I should read them because I'll learn more about you because you're not always the best communicator so you'll put your best bits into that you're missing a lot and actually I find it a little bit upsetting that you don't read them would you let me to read them?

43:08I just I think that it would be healthy and helpful for our own happiness for you to catch these moments because I'm giving a lot of heart into these letters and also just just like you didn't know anything about the Louis Armstrong song but these are all like quite I would like you to know this information but we don't really have the uh we don't have the time or the conversations where we get into that these letters these letters I'm sure if you read them you would probably be like holy fuck is this ryan's words but in a good way yeah no i'm always really impressed but but i but again it's not the sort of thing i don't have an expectation for anyone to read them but i would like to think that you would find the time to read a four minute letter to our son but i get i get i get your point though because you're kind of you're in it living it anyway so maybe you think maybe you think you know what's in the letter but i don't think you know

44:05Louise: No, I don't think I do know what's in the letter. I think you are more considered, and you give more away probably in the letters than you do day to day, because you're like caught up in the one. So I should treat them like a letter to me as well. But yeah, I also think like, I know we do a podcast together, and I'm still not as good a communicator as you are, but I've said from early, early on, I'm much better at writing than talking. yeah and like even though i'm much better at talking going back five six seven eight years ago i'm still not that great and there's still much more that i could give with written word so i would kind of either i've got to start writing you a weekly letter or you start catching up with what i'm writing to leo i'll catch up do you know what maybe i can just update you guys and i say you guys i mean you and people listening every other every other i don't know episode you know what i'm i'm saying to leah maybe that's the way to do it maybe that removes a task for everyone no they're very different things yeah we can get a little flavor i needed your first magazine cover as well yes was that to celebrate um no that to celebrate what the letter to leah yeah no i mean that was they did very kindly feature and plug the letters to Leah but it was more about I don't know just because I'm speaking in this way about modern masculinity and fatherhood it kind of got the attention of this magazine yeah so that'll come out next week and that's on the front cover it says fuck the manosphere because that's what I said when I arrived in the studio and they were like well that sets the tone one of my letters to Leah early on was about failure and I basically the reason I mentioned is because this week I sort of had like a moment of I just failed at something.

46:03Or is it just written in my path anyway and timing's not right?

46:07Louise: Is this the SAS opportunity? I'm getting a lot more woo-woo with my old age. But yes, it's the SAS thing. Which I feel pretty... I'm okay about it now, but basically I did the whole interview process for that TV show. Got like really, really positive reviews. and then I was told to sort of be on hold for two or three weeks, three weeks, quite a long time. So I hadn't heard anything, but during that time, I've got to go for psychoanalysis, medical consultations. I've got to be sent kits. I've got to have in-person and virtual conversations with different people. So lots of kind of sort of in-depth analysis to see if you're fit and ready for something like that.

46:54Past all that, completely fine. and then I found out that I wasn't I was first I was on the sort of reserve so I didn't make the sort of line up of the initial cast but I was told to be on hold as first reserve and yeah I found out I found out this week that I didn't I'm not needed basically which is

47:14Louise: I guess also I mean we've not spoken about this masters at home but there would have been obviously there are sort of physical preparations and having to do all of these tests but there's probably a certain amount of mental preparation that you'd kind of built yourself up for this show like silently you'd probably been thinking about it a bit and like how you might handle it and it's probably quite tiring and then to be told like a few days before they start filming is well i was supposed to be going to hawaii in a few weeks to do this half iron man and i let that go and postponed it because i was like you know what i've been a fan of this show for a long time if they and if there was a tv show that i'd really enjoy doing it's this one so i parked the iron man in hawaii which is a massive opportunity as well yeah and i was like all right let me let me try and sort of get in the right headspace for this potential call-up which never came so i feel really flat about the whole thing i totally get it and i'm also really gutted for you because i think that if anyone was going to do that show well it would be you and i would love to see on it i had a conversation with g about it yeah a lovely producer and uh she gave me like a healthy perspective spin on it she's like well maybe it's part of your story and she used the word called kismet k-i-s-m-e-t which is i think a word kind of used in the indian culture or that part of the world and it's so you know how i love different cultures and kind of the whole philosophies of different places yeah it's usually japan this time it's not um and yeah i've actually thought about it and like what is kismet what does that mean it's not it's not written in my path it's not maybe not my destiny or the timing's not quite right or you know if not now maybe later down the road so a bit like if it's meant for you won't pass you.

49:11Yes, exactly, yeah. And I guess, I mean, I've been like Quasimodo for 11 weeks. My neck has been so bad.

49:20Louise: It's true. You can't move. You would have actually done it terribly. Yeah. That would have been disappointing. So maybe this is all happening for the right reasons. I love that. That's a very positive way of looking at it. It's actually sometimes the only way to deal with failure. I guess there is a part of me though again to throw it back to the whole Leo and letters and example like there was a big part of me that wanted to be on TV in that TV show yeah and for Leo to be like oh my god there's my dad and then win the thing I kind of I kind of fantasized about that but it looks like I'm just gonna have to leave that shit to his uncle oh there's some again on another tv show kids don't care about that stuff if anything it would be weird it'd be harder having like a super celebrity parent like it's he literally thinks you're an icon every day no no please let me be clear this is not about me being on tv shows yeah it's about me being like in his eyes he'd be like my dad's an action man yeah this is because you your dad was an action man.

50:26Yeah.

50:27Louise: You are an action man. I know, but do you get what I'm trying to say? I know I totally and utterly get it. If I went on that show, Leo would be like, you would be the action man. Yeah. It will happen. We're still so young. It better fucking happen everyone. You're only 35, dude. You're going to do it when you're even more prepared for it. We're going to New York in November. I'm running that marathon, which is fun. That is epic. Maybe I'll just dress up as an action man. And Leo will be like, yeah. Dress up as a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Yeah. Oh, let's amazing. We've not been to America since we had Leo favorite place in the world.

51:04I'm going to, I'm actually going, I'm hoping to, I'm hoping to align with a Alzheimer's charity UK for that one.

51:11Louise: Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I guess when I was a kid, I thought my dad was an action man. I can remember him coming back from work on like a Matt Green, Harley Davidson scrambler motorbike in camouflage army kit and a big rucksack on his back and it was literally like an action figurine and at that point he had like a full head of jet black hair and a mustache and i was like this guy's dope not so much now but but yeah i kind of i want to i want leo to have those like flashes of like that's my dad's moments so yeah that that that is something that plays on my mind all the time i think you're a brilliant role model I'm trying hard.

51:53I'm trying hard. I am really trying hard.

51:57Louise: It doesn't go unnoticed. Nothing. But yeah, now my Instagram feed is like filled up with some guy called Clavicula. Oh my God. Yeah. And I'm like, yo, this is really worrying. Tell me a little bit about Clavicula. I don't know what his real name is, but he goes by Clavicula and he's linked with the manosphere. I think he's in some sort of business arrangements with Andrew Tate. And he's all about, he's trying to pump a message where we, in this current sort of climate now, we have the opportunity to ascend past what we've been given naturally. I've heard about this. And when I say that, and by the way, it's coming from someone who's in the fitness industry.

52:42I kind of dabbled with the whole fitness modeling space for a while. So there definitely was a time where I was into the vanity and aesthetics. I can admit that but never to the point where I would take it to the conversations and the stuff that he's kind of really promoting in a dangerous way and I'm talking like he's created something called looks maxing right looks maxing yeah this is a this is a this is a delicate conversation to have because on the one hand I'm sort of describing my dad as action man with the jet black hair and the mustache and but that was the reality of my childhood what this clavicular person is doing is suggesting that we should tweak and augment and remove bone from our chin and like i even may i this this is probably the best example i saw a clip of him with a hammer smashing his cheekbones to promote an inflammatory response to make them bigger to give his face more structure and he was saying that this is something that boys should be doing i actually have seen it

53:44Louise: I've actually listened to an interview that he did with Piers Morgan. It's called like creating micro fractures in your bones so that they grow back more defined. But I'm just... As part of this looks maxing culture, which basically highlights that if you look the best you can, you will be afforded other privileges in life. So your relationships will improve. You'll get more girls. You'll be financially more successful. Your career will improve. and you'll attract success essentially because that is the way that the world operates according to him. And he breaks down facial structures into like ratios of having like a wider face proportionately to the sort of like, I don't know, like the width versus height ratio.

54:31Louise: And he talks about, is it mewing? Is that giving, like they do these face massages? Oh, I don't know. I didn't see that one. What's that one? that can improve essentially your cheekbones. And the weirdest thing that I heard about what he was talking about was that he was basically saying that he's got into this stuff from the age he hit puberty, so when he was around 14, 15. So he's now 20, but he has been adopting some of these strategies to improve how he looks since he was a mid-teen, including hormonal tweaks so he took he was taking something like aromatase which suppresses your estrogen production because he wanted to be taller he also was taking testosterone and growth hormone because he wanted to be taller he wanted to lean into like his full sort of masculine capabilities and ultimately like tweaking his development and so he's actually a he's he's targeting people that are at that stage in their life because that's when you have the biggest opportunity to make these these changes to your body i feel i feel like that quite dark i feel like he's just become like a disciple of the manuscript do you know the problem as well as that he's making hundreds of thousands of pounds every month so now there are people that are looking up to him not just from the perspective yes of how he looks but also he sells courses on how to improve how you look he's a disciple he's an extension of andrew tape so he he will have access and he will have promotion and marketing and funds and he this clavid that's why he's all over my fecking phone now because he's being pumped by a mega machine that is the manosphere and this just this just feeds into my whole frustration with this with this space now is that we are, I'm doing it now.

56:28I'm talking about them and I'm promoting them and we're like glorifying it in a way that it's like, it's very sad. I've seen a picture of this boy before any of this. He's quite a sweet, normal looking kid. He's got like curly jet black hair. He's got a normal face structure. And then he does like an after it. It's like an AI filter. It's not an AI filter, but it's like that. And all of a sudden he's got this like wetter kind of looking hair with a very chiseled jaw jawbone and like slightly more tat and i'm like it's quite sad like you were completely normal and fine and probably great before and you've gone through this transition which maybe has brought you happiness but what you're doing now is you're you're suggesting that others need to do the same and you're speaking to other young boys i've seen clips of this and he'll rip apart the hairstyle he'll say your face is too wide you need a reduction of this jaw and you need to do something about the nose and i'm like Jesus Christ we've spoken about the manosphere before I wrote a letter to Leo about it and when I came because I didn't know about Clavicula I'm sort of finding out more about this world as we go on

57:36Louise: to be honest we could be blissfully ignorant and go well people like this don't really bother us because they don't come into our space because they don't affect us because we're not vulnerable to them but there are a huge amount of young people that are saying all of this so actually it's important that we educate parents that people like this do exist out there so that they can make sure that they're having appropriate conversations with their kids but i think you might regret everything you just said because leo might well be in this group of kids at the school playground who are looking at content from no no but so what i'm saying is that we need to get ahead of it like we need to know that that is what's out there because whilst it doesn't pop up on our youtube i'm not sat there watching youtube videos for three hours a day but it does exist out there and we obviously have to be responsible parents and we have got a young boy who will likely come across this sort of stuff i i i protect i feel extremely passionate about this and it's because i'm a dad and i have a son and i see the potential areas that he might be exposed to it's just it's damaging for young boys it's already a difficult time it's already a difficult time for men it's it's a difficult time for everyone and these these blokes just uh they've identified a really weak spot in society and they're leveraging it to the hilt and that the destruction they're doing to people's lives and happiness i totally agree because a lot of those things that they're suggesting that you do are irreversible and a lot of people are not responsible enough to know how to smash their face with a hammer and not break their entire jaw.

59:18Can you imagine coming home and finding Leo in his bedroom, watching a video and sort of copping along, smashing his cheekbones because he wants to look a certain way. Can you just imagine that?

59:30Louise: And paying for it. And paying for it. And you're telling me that this guy's making a hundred and whatever thousand a month. Imagine how many young boys are in their bedroom without their mums and dads. I feel so strongly about this. well i guess because society puts such high value on looks still which i think is really fucking sad like why does looks maxing exist why aren't we why aren't we education maxing like why are we intellect maxing why aren't we like book reading maxing there are so many other things how about we just be real people the fact is that there are people like clavicular and andrew tate yeah they are creating a scenario where people are made to feel that they need to make drastic change to how they look and they're willing to spend money they probably don't have to look a certain way so these people are modeling what we should be looking like and and and here's how to get there they're creating such deep insecurity and upsetting people that's the that's the upsetting part i the psychology behind it is interesting and i don't think i'll be able to explain it very well because i can't understand obviously why people would follow the this group of people that have made what they're talking about somewhat political like they're obviously extreme because they're prancing around in jubilee and ferrari's and yeah so they're glamour and they're like and they got like what is perceived as like the hot girls in the background or the hot guys so they've got really glamorous lives so they're a bit like glorified like yes it's a very glamorous life on the outside like it looks like a very glamorous life because they have lots of money and you've got these young impressionable lost kids yeah who are looking up on youtube whatever social platform and they're like how do i get a slice of that and they're subscribing and they're using their pocket money to oh well let me start by maybe getting a bit of jaw removed or put it do you know what i mean well yeah and i think it also always starts with something doesn't it starts with the diet and the exercise which is the sort of like more palatable piece that they talk about which is just all part of it and it starts there and then he's sort of encouraging people to take weight loss drugs to suppress appetites again who are underage but then that evolves to the next thing because then maybe they do see some change and then they you know take it too far it's slightly scary that social media has enabled these people to have such a loud voice because before that the world wouldn't really know about these like really specific cults.

1:02:06I think it would be great if these people would be shut down on social media platforms. Why not just remove that advantage that they've got? They've got these huge profiles, huge followings. Someone could just pull the plug on that. And there's an increasing number of men and dads who do see it the way I see it and they are trying to do something about it. Maybe in the privacy of their own home, But, you know, there's other dads and blokes who are pretty perturbed by this.

1:02:40Louise: The problem is that social media is full of people that aren't experts trying to sell products claiming to be experts. It's all across the fitness industry as well. I mean, it's not new, you know? It's like he's not a plastic surgeon. He's not an endocrinologist. He does not know enough about hormones to be telling people to self-inject when they're 14. He can tell someone to slap on a bit of fake tan and maybe do some calf raises in his kitchen. That's fine. But selling packages to kids with the promise that they're going to go, that they're going to ascend and that their life will improve if they do all of these things is totally fraudulent.

1:03:28Louise: I've actually got a really good listener question this week. So if you could swap lives for 24 hours with Ryan, becoming Louise and Louise becoming Ryan, what would you do? I'm going shopping. I'm going to open up my bank balance and be like, yo. I'm going to go and hit the shops and not look at any of the price tags. Would you actually do that? Yeah. What? I think you think I've got more cash lurking around than maybe I do. Love that for you. What are you buying? Oh, mate. What actually, what would you buy? Probably a new motorbike. Yeah, RIP motorbike. Oh, gosh. I've not had a motorbike update for a while.

1:04:12Louise: I didn't even want to know. What would you do? I would, oh, it'd be so fun being that big and tall and imposing. Oh, my God, yeah. Just go into loads of spaces and see what it's like to be tall and open loads of cupboards and just easily reach for a jam jar at the top. Mel, you're going from five foot to six foot two. Yeah. I'd really like abuse the privilege of being a big person. That's so cute. I'd probably like have, I don't know, I'd probably have a little scratch of my balls. That's what men seem to do quite a lot. It'd be nice to know what that feels like. Yeah. Maybe we could have sex with each other.

1:04:46Woo. You'd be pumping it.

1:04:49Louise: Experience. Oh God, that is so gross. But then I'd know what it's like for you because I got no idea. that's funny i'm still thinking about you like walking around at six foot two being like oh this is kind of fun i wonder if it's better for a boy or a girl oh just taking it back to the sorry no let's take it to this much more savory topic of height that's what i do maybe like get on that motorbike i just really macho things i could i just like being at your speed for the day i'd be like bloody hell what have i taken yeah just like the way you like hit the keyboard and like move around tasks. I'd be like, oh my God, I'm on crack.

1:05:28Louise: Yep. And I'd be like, God, have I spent a hundred doobies? Because I am so horizontal right now. No, you'd be like, wow, I see the world so differently. This is epic. I wish we could do that. Yeah. Do you know what would be interesting? Is if we get some like response from our audience about what they think about clavicular. I feel like we've just put ourselves a little bit on the ledge with our view but I feel like I'd quite like to get into a bit more of a discussion with other people who I don't know yeah definitely I'd love to know what the public think about this one please I'm asking men and women who listen to the show to write in or comment on it just let us know what you think about Clavicula and also we can put loads of the links to any articles that we think are interesting around the topics that we speak about in the episode in the show notes below so then if you want like a little bit of extra you can go have a little look i love a resource yeah um also you'll find our email address in there so it's h triple s at sl productions.co.uk so do pop us an email with your thoughts and also with any questions you want us to answer next week and make sure as always to follow and subscribe us.

1:06:48Louise: Anyway, guys, we will see you. We'll see you next week. Have a nice weekend without me and Leah. Yeah, I can't wait.

1:07:00This has been a Staying Relevant production.

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1:07:24Louise: A new season of 90 Day is upon us and Little Miss Recap has you covered. My name is Amy Archer. I'm a writer. I'm a Libra. I'm a mom. And most importantly, I'm a lady of a certain age. I grew up on a steady diet of soap operas and I've now taken that lens and applied it to reality television. Together with a bunch of my friends, we talk about some of our favorite reality shows, including Sister Wives, 90 Day Fiance, Love is Blind, and more. And don't forget Reality Roundup on Fridays, where we talk about the latest happening on and off screen of our favorite trash reality shows. Come and join us at Little Miss Recap.

1:08:04Louise: That's Little Miss Recap. Listen anywhere you get podcasts.

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