The end of He Said, She Said?!

0:01Hello friends, welcome back to He Said She Said. I'm back in the hot seat with Louise and we're going to start this episode off a little bit differently this week with a big announcement. Gosh, I'm going to have to refrain from getting a bit emotional. This is going to be our last podcast episode for a little bit of time. We're taking a short break

0:31because we have things that we need to focus on. There are a few things that are just going to require quite a lot of our attention, sort of mental attention, physical attention, concentration, things that require like a little bit of extra downtime. time and sometimes I think the pause button is just as important as the play button and knowing when to hit a pause is a really valuable skill to possess I think. We're going to take a little bit of time to focus on the next steps of our fertility journey. It requires an awful lot of energy to to mind your life through something like a podcast like this and i think it would feel odd if we just carried on whilst going through this really big um like next stage for us yeah and it's nice to sometimes to come back with a kind of renewed like refreshed perspective on something whilst when you're out the other side and you have that experience to talk about instead of just constantly having to live our lives in real time yeah i can only really speak for myself here but when i went through everything i went through post the childbirth um i had to take a big pause but the aftermath of that i don't know when i when i came back and i was ready to talk and ready to share i felt like i had so much more to say i just think it's really important to step back sometimes i mean it's the perfect timing for us We've been going at this for almost a year, putting out weekly episodes.

2:16And we knew from the get-go that just by the nature of the podcast, it was going to be quite tricky at times with difficult conversations. And doing it in between other projects has been an awful lot. And we came into it very naive. We didn't really quite know the ins and outs of running a podcast. And we've learned an awful lot about not just ourselves, but our relationship and the things that we need to work on. we've learned a lot about what it takes to produce and make a podcast to work within a team to create content it's been an incredibly busy period maybe maybe more busy than we perhaps predicted it would be um and yeah without spilling too much information at this stage we are about to start a new journey as a family which is going to require a bit more protection of our time so that we can we can do it properly perfect so we can do it properly and actually to be honest we're not talking about you know months and months away from this we're talking about a month or or perhaps a little bit more but actually it's a nice way to to maybe reflect and look back on the year that's gone and see how much growth has happened, you know, within ourselves, personal development and all that sort of stuff.

3:35I think there's so much we could look back on. And I'll get to this later in the conversation, some of your most memorable conversations and things like that. But yes, it's kind of like a celebration in a way. That's the way I'm going to frame this. This is a celebration. And I know we don't do seasons on this podcast, but I'm just going to say, let's celebrate season one and then shut the doors for a little bit and come back even better. How do you feel about taking a bit of a pause? Are you someone that's good with change? I can recognize when change is needed. I think change is a good thing.

4:09I'm actually excited for the pause. Me too. I think it's come at a good time for both of us. I think it's quite a brave thing to do. No, it is, yeah. When something's already really going very well and has good momentum and it's a success story and we've got all of our lovely loyal listeners who we're hugely grateful to, to then go actually we're going to take a step back is not something that feels like familiar territory to me at all but having learned a lot of the lessons i've learned that we've then discussed throughout the course of the last year when we've spoken on this podcast it's um it is absolutely essential to to take to take stock and to and to stop and go actually you know what like health comes first yeah yeah like our life comes first our family comes first we're very good at sharing everything we do online it's become our bread and butter it is literally our career we've got an entire career out of it and we're so privileged to do this really fun cool job that we have but equally there are some things that then require like a little bit of silence totally and that feels actually quite empowering don't you wouldn't you say 100 and i also know that then when we come back, like, well, it just feels like who knows where our brains will be after that little bit of time.

5:29Probably. Well, hopefully in a better, well, I say better place. That makes it sound like we're in a bad place. We're not. We've never needed to do the podcast. We don't need to do this. There's enough going on in our world without it, but we have made the decision at some point to do this because we've got a story to tell and share. And, you know, it really resonates with a lot of people up and down the country yeah we're not just talking about um parenting insights we're talking about dynamics of relationships um you know dynamics of you know siblings and parents and we dive into so much really there's so many there's still quite it's potentially quite a hard one to categorize i suppose as a podcast because we kind of touch on relationships parenting health a little bit yeah everything to answer your question i do i do in general think that change is quite scary yes but this has come a great time and i feel very good about it and it's going to go past pretty damn quick isn't it is there any moments i mean we can we can make it more broad with the questions but is there any moment any conversation that kind of sticks out as like cool that was a real corker of a conversation or something that really stuck with you gosh i mean we really have spoken about everything i think weddings was hilarious it's funny that literally a year can pass by just like that and no further with planning that we've we've had a lots of offers accepted on second properties and none of them come to fruition so we we've had intimate conversation there's been a lot of like planning and some things have fallen apart but I still feel very good about it it's actually quite interesting isn't it like looking back and seeing like the promises you made to yourself which ones have happened which ones haven't and I think one uh really um a really meaningful conversation was was the first conversation we ever had where we actually sat on the sofa in the kitchen and it's probably our first ever episode we didn't actually we did film it but we never put it up on youtube because then we decided to bring the set in here into the living room into the blue room and because the lighting was better and it was going to be more consistent away from the big windows in there and so we should actually release that at some point it's kind of hidden in the archives at the moment but that felt really raw because i felt like i came to it with a lot of vulnerability a lot of nerves and i'd never spoken to you really in that capacity and i asked you questions that I really wanted to know the answers to and I confessed about some things like reading some notes that you'd written and and that felt really really really real yeah um and I do think that we're about to go through a really real really raw experience that is the kind of thing you know it's easy to sit and talk from a place of like good health but it's it's harder to talk when you're really like in the midst of something, like the thick of something that is potentially upsetting, you know, not how you would want it to be.

8:37And I think that's kind of what the next chapter looks like for us. We're kind of stepping into the unknown and we're going to potentially face hardships and we just need to to like figure out exactly how we want to share that but I have no doubt that we will be having a lot more of those like very raw conversations in the future and I do like embrace those wholeheartedly and I really enjoy them because I do feel like really connected to you when we go through those sorts of things together well what's been the highlight for you I think in general this podcast has really served up so much reward and it's given me as a man an opportunity to really grow and develop in a space where you know before any of this started and when i say any of it i mean not the podcast but any of the events that we've lived through over the past four years i was never much of a communicator i didn't really give it much thought i just kind of put a lid on things and cracked on but as a result of everything that's happened in the podcast and the conversations that we have and the way that it's been received and resonated it's it's felt very right even during the times where it's felt almost impossible and so difficult to get through we've had moments where we've cried on the podcast laughed um one of the most memorable and not particularly for the right reasons but one of the most memorable episodes was walking through the kitchen archway behind me and sitting in a set with one chair and doing a solo episode because you were in hospital and that one still gives me chills because it was um so like raw and like oh my gosh like louise is in hospital again and i had to do this podcast but doing things like that which are as i say so difficult at the time and almost impossible to get through it pushes you in a different way or it pushed me in a way that I've not really been pushed before but it it really forces growth and it teaches you how to articulate communicate behave body language everything like it's essentially what I'm trying to say is I think this podcast has really complimented me and helped me get better do you think it's helped you heal yes wow that's a really good way of putting it yes it's helped me heal to get through everything you've been through it really has it's given me an opportunity it's given me space to think but also talk about things and also like it might seem trivial and maybe insignificant to people listening but and maybe forgive me if i've repeated the same story but just the other day i was loading up the car on our street and someone who lives two streets away a dad of well he had a three-year-old daughter in his pram and he had a spaniel dog of sorts, Cocker Spaniel.

11:38And he said, dude, I've, he was walking past the car and then he stopped and he said, dude, I've got to stop you. I've got to say that I listened to the podcast and it's just incredible. And thank you for talking about the stuff that I am going through as well. And loads of people that I know. And it's just really great to look back on the year that we've had and to actually realize that, you know what, uh, 46, I don't know, let's say 50 episodes later, it's really had a like tremendous impact for you for me for people that have listened hopefully for people who've been part of it it's not always been easy but things that are worth doing never are easy and thank you to everyone thank you thank you thank you partner

12:28so yeah i mean there's so many memorable bits you mentioned rachel bright somewhere along the way she's now become something of a friend that's incredible we've we've you know really spent time looking at moments with leo and kind of like really sharing those beautiful moments together which is like really firmed it up as like that is that is a postcard that will live in my memory for the rest of my days you know yeah it's all too easy to look past these things and move on but I think doing these weekly conversations it gives you a chance to take stock pause analyze talk about it discuss and because we've built the skills of doing it in a very vulnerable way it's been well received and I think we should be very proud of each other for that yeah I'm super proud of you for opening up and having these conversations It's not easy for guys.

13:25And so there'll be a lot of people out there, men and women who will be very grateful to you for being so honest. Us. I think even as you said the thing there about one of the trickiest episodes, but probably the most memorable was you having to do a solo episode. When I was in hospital last year, I'll have to be, I will be ending up, but, you know, I will be spending some time in hospital now, probably going into theater again. But to have, to take agency over that this time and to feel like we've got control over that feels pretty awesome. Instead of that decision being taken out of our hands.

14:11Yeah, totally. And happening to us, not for us. Yeah. so to get a year down the line and to be like ready for that is kind of cool yeah you said something about time difficult things are the ones worth doing yeah the ones worth doing and it is it's funny because people assume that doing a podcast is just really easy and we know quite a few people that do podcasts and it actually isn't that easy and and also you don't you can't always guarantee that you're going to feel wonderful when you sit down to record on a wednesday can you like it's it's really funny because you know across the media landscape people always like to present themselves in a certain way but we are being very vulnerable because we're showing our kind of flawed selves like sometimes we might be a bit grumpy sometimes i might be a bit frowny sometimes we're happy we're smiley sometimes we might have a massive barney just before we step into a podcast it is there is a lot of emotion that goes into it and I think I know very few couples that would actually be able to handle handle the heat of doing it with their partner without like burning out or actually almost weirdly creating more distance between them there are a few projects aside from the sort of like health and fertility stuff um there are obviously like the big kind of things that i need to set aside time for that i'm excited to get my teeth stuck into during this quieter period and one of which i know that you bumped into theo clark who's the mp who came to this house last week and we had a really nice coffee and a catch-up which ended up being like a four-hour like round table meeting with me barking politics questions at her um Did you say four hours?

16:10Yeah, we were together for hours, like half a day's work together. And there's a lot that I still want to do in that space. And I know that I'm someone that likes everything to happen really quickly. And if I want something to happen, you know, I want to like be able to implement the change and action things really fast. but I've really come to accept that the you know making like a significant policy change and change to like the maternity strategy in this country is going to take time yeah yeah but every every time I have a meeting like that I edge one step closer and I think during the time where I might buy back like four or six weeks of Wednesdays you know those however many days like I'm going to really work quite hard on that and do quite a lot of writing and I'm very excited to start creating some petitions through change.org.

17:03She actually told me horrendous stat that left me like really shocked and really wanting to speak up about it. So we talk quite a lot in this nation about male suicide because it is such a significant cause of male death in this country. But the highest proportion of women that commit suicide in the UK is amongst women at 12 months postpartum. And the fact that that is still so under discussed is quite mind blowing to me. There are 600 ,000 babies that are born in this country a year. And yet the government still won't implement all of the recommendations from the birth trauma inquiry, which came out last May.

17:49And we've now got a sort of emergency quick inquiry, I think that's been worked on towards the end of this year towards the end of December but I think really it's an excuse and a way of not looking at the work that has already been done last year and so really my sorry I'm getting very serious on you now but I feel like I'm going to try and edge closer towards getting into a room with Wes Streeting and also making plans with Theo for doing like a four part a podcast which we're currently pitching to a few different networks to really like deep dive into this this um major problem well look at that so again just as like a reflective um look back this this podcast has arguably supported you meeting the likes of theo clark and getting into these conversations and you know now you're going to potentially do a new podcast because you've tested the waters you've built some confidence in this space you've got a name in this space yeah that's really great and that's also everything has to start somewhere doesn't it that's what's so beautiful about life is that this this whole podcast experience is is a journey and i mean no more no podcasts were kind of built overnight were they no no no they will meander around and they fall and then they build back stronger just like all of us wounded but but if Again, it's an illustration of following a passion or doing something that's really in alignment with your values and your mission.

19:30It's great. To some people, perhaps a podcast feels like a job or work, but for us, it's never felt like that. It's a beautiful thing about something like a podcast is that for so long, knowledge was reserved for those that could afford it. I mean, we've obviously, books are very affordable, but I do think that it makes information incredibly accessible to the masses because actually there is a barrier to reading a book for some people they just struggle to read so to have to have access to so many people like internationally and across the world who are going through something similar to you you really do draw in your your community like your perfect audience yeah the people that are the most like you and that is such a cool thing and to be able to help people going through something rough to feel less alone is amazing yeah

20:31what would you say is the i don't know biggest funniest weirdest thing you've learned about me as a result of doing this i never knew you scratched your head so much like i've never seen you scratch your head like that before it's funny neither did i you didn't know about it either so you learned that about yourself yeah oh i've learned about my neck twitching oh i definitely know about that one i can't stop it now i'm feeling anxious because it's the last and i don't like goodbyes i've learned about your uh blinking about my blinking my eyebrow i give a lot away there's no room to hide on this yeah i really do scratch my head don't i i've also really learned that you thrive off of energy and and this isn't meant to be a criticism but if i pause or i'm quiet or have a bit of a brain foggy moment like you start to slightly spin out and then that's because you're scary i'm not scary yes yeah sometimes then it's like when you when you're not vibing with the other person it's very tricky to to get the episode into a good place for there to be good energy yeah but that's when we then just needed to turn it into something different you know yeah it's difficult in this environment isn't it because i tend to mirror what i get but in other environments i can i can just do my own thing i think when you're so comfortable with somebody which inevitably you are if you've been with a partner for nine or ten years we still don't know um that you yeah you feel like you don't need to act right so you don't need to just pretend that it's all good and keep competition playing for the sake of it and so you're like come on wakey wakey

22:05what else have i learned about you you don't like being touched if you're remotely irritable so if i was like touch your foot hair or your sock or something no that depends on how the conversation is going if it's going well i'm all for it but if we're sort of if you're like rooting around for like a a bit of inspiration safety blanket like a like give me some of your good energy it's like get off do you know i've learned actually i've learned that you've got an unbelievable wardrobe every every time you sit down you look banging and i'm just like still wearing the same clobber you're still wearing like leo's pajama top yeah i've learned that i've learned that i need to work on my wardrobe around yeah it's not true you're stunned you could start sending me some stuff please people what do you want to come back with then i would yeah i mean we don't have to have seasons but for the purpose of this conversation i'm just going to say in season two i'd very much like to take this podcast into a studio i've learned that doing this podcast from home is a bit too tricky for me i'd much prefer to have the separation i'd also love to get a new chair because this is still squeaking so much um so i'm very excited for that um do you think it'll be a bit more it's a bit more professional being out of the house it's more professional but also like i'm very much and i've learned this in recent times since doing these letters to leo but it's amazing how much inspiration you can get just from being outside so we we we already spend a lot of time from home luckily i've got an office so that gives me a new outlet but i just think even if i'm riding my bicycle riding my motorbike in the car with you whatever there's so much opportunities to be like soaking stuff up which could serve as ammunition and conversation or letters or content of any description do you know what that's reminded me of that song which we must link in the show notes that we listen to when we're on holiday in greece when we did the yoga and it's the song with the guy talking and he talks about how if you only ever talk and you never listen and i know you talk about listening all the time then you'll always be stuck in your head and just analyzing your own thoughts in your own life and it's kind of a nod to what you're just saying it's very important to get out of yourself outside of yourself that's a different outside of our intimate conversation that's a new one since greece it was the same and we won't be revealing those secrets we will reveal that song um because yeah if you don't get outside you don't have a commute then you were literally just stuck in your own bubble your own boring brain well i think for you i think we need to do that i certainly need to do that i can be way too much of a hammer i think for you it's just gonna change things it's gonna change you spend even more time than i do here so i think it's gonna have resounding impacts on uh on our podcast I'm also really excited the idea of doing some kind of live event and I feel so comfortable with this conversation that I'd love to do some live events and I'd like to start interviewing some other people to talk have conversations with other people it's a better way of putting it it's not an interview yeah I'd like to have conversations with other people still together but I'd like to have conversations with other people yeah I kind of echoing what I just said I think there's only so much that you can learn from yourself and being inside your own head and just being inside your own set of four walls.

25:18There's only so much we can learn from one another. I think it's important to extend the conversation outside of ourselves and only when relevant, because I don't want it to become a kind of like a guest led podcast, but I think it's really nice to have, to change the tone now and again and bring people in that are very relevant to to our lives and stories really thought out considered selected people to come on and really have beautiful conversation i look forward to that that was always the hopes and ambitions for this but i think now that we've come to the end of season one we'll take some time away we can refine sharpen the blade take care of ourselves and our family and then we'll come back with just a lot more i was gonna say spunk but that's not the right word it's because your dad was saying it in the kitchen on Sunday.

26:10He was like, yeah, man, you've got loads of spunk. And I'm like, he said that to you. What? Yeah, but the conversation was not obviously about. Wait, wait, what? I've never heard him use the word spunk in my life. No, he's just describing one of Sam's friends and it was a strange description at the time, but now I get it. Now I get it. Our podcast is going to be real spunky next year.

26:32What about you? Any other further ambitions or hopes for season two? Time will tell. Time will tell. I think Like I said before, I always get my best ideas when I'm in the shower and it's the time when I step away from technology and phones and all of the other work and projects and stuff I'm doing. So just to have a little bit of quiet time, I'm sure we'll present some cool new ideas. Well, yes, we've spoken about this before. Slowing down. To speed up. Well, slowing down, speed up. Slow is fast and slow is smooth. What is it? slow is smooth and smooth is fast yeah we don't want to tempt fate really and go too deep into um the sort of fertility piece until we're a little bit clearer on where we're at where we stand where our bodies stand both of our bodies because i think we've both got battles ahead um um but do you feel ready for ready to kind of embark on that on that next step because for the last three and a half years you've not wanted to i feel like with things like this that are very very personal very intimate things you don't really want to you almost don't want to say what you want the outcome to be you want to whisper it in case it breaks or something yeah because it breaks like a precious bauble on a christmas tree but i think with the picture with the family of multiple kids i've always struggled i've always struggled or at least i've struggled for a long time with the idea of going through whichever route lies ahead of us a way to expand the family and there's a whole bunch of context behind that there's the physical mental emotional pain that you went through with leo and that that's in relation to the pregnancy leading up to it the delivery and the years afterwards there's also the fact that we're so blessed with leo because he is everything that I would ever dream of in terms of like having a son who's more than he's unbelievable

29:06so it's been this real conundrum this back and forth conversation in my mind about do I as a dad and as a partner to you want to go through that kind of journey again do I feel like I need to because I've already got Leo and he's just wonderful so for a long time I could never really find an answer to that question or I couldn't quite get because I could feel from your side that you you wanted to find the missing pieces of that puzzle in terms of like what our family should and could have looked like it was never part of our plan to have just one it's never certainly never part of our plan to have one in the way that it happened so it's been I've really taken my time over this it's not really a decision as such but just getting on the same page with having more children and then looking at ways in which that can be possible and you know looking at it all it only really comes down to and again it took me a while to realize this but now that I realize it I now know where I stand in the situation so my motivation to do this in in and by the way whichever route this shoots us down in terms of expanding the family my motivation and reason for being in that room or that conversation is to support you because I think or I feel that you were robbed of the opportunity to be a mummy to a newborn And there's no world in which that is fair.

30:51That's the motivation from my side. And that's the reason for me being here in this conversation now. And I haven't had a chance really to speak to anyone about it because, well, we haven't told really anyone. And no one really speaks about it. We've had a lot to contend with. then I think it's taken us four years to build a stable foundation, rebuild a stable foundation and a really stable home that puts us in a position where we can throw in something potentially unstable again, you know? Life is like a roller coaster and you're kind of constantly, well you're either moving in the direction of the wind or against it and we're about to kind of run into the wind yeah well i'm glad i'm glad that i've told you and had that realization because it's not um it's just not one of those things that you sort of naively go along with in life is it it's such a big decision and there's no guarantees it's um it's it's more challenges that you put your body through and it requires a lot from from both to get through it so i've really taken my time over it i didn't want to just you know have a irrational reaction to it we have too much to lose leo's always been our priority if we can give leo a baby brother or baby sister it would be against all odds kind of yeah um but i believe that we can do i i believe we can do it and i know that you very much want it and i'm going to choose my words carefully here i very much want it for you I'm going to give you another Japanese philosophy it's called the red thread of fate and it's a philosophy or a concept they share in China as well and the best way the best way that I can describe it to you so you get it is when I look at you and Leo together playing in the kitchen or making banana bread on the weekends there is this invisible thread which is a reminder, a sign, a universal sign that you love exactly who you are meant to in this world.

33:33So that you and Leo are 100 % who I'm supposed to be with. And it's this invisible connection between you and your most cherished ones. And I'm actually going to put a little red thread on your pinky. On my pinky? yeah because you know what is i was wondering what that red thread was doing on the kitchen cut where have you found that you sure as shit aren't doing any sewing ryan you know the pinky promise yeah i do that with leo all the time pinky promise so it stems there's a connection somehow with the pinky promise that's why this red thread this invisible connective thread is going to go it's not invisible obviously you can see it but this is going to go on our pinky because of the power of a pinky promise oh really and the the difficulty i'm gonna have together i don't know where the thread begins or ends because i am not a sewer is it a ring on my finger like my signet ring which is what my family wear like you've got your leo on your pinky there's quite a lot of symbolism and pinkies exactly i'm really i'm gonna have to hand this over to you maybe you can find the end okay there we go so what do we do now you're gonna tie it around my pinky and I'm going to tie it around yours.

34:50Oh, that might be long enough for your little one. Yeah, I think that'll be long enough for your. Let's go to my damaged one. Oh God, I just cut my leg on my scissors. Your damaged finger. This is my good one. This is my healthy one. This is your good thumb finger pinky. Not too tight. That's like cheese wire. I'll go straight through. I was going to do like a, wait, do we have to keep this on? Yeah. I was going to try and order some jewelry, but it hasn't nice well I didn't really plan it to be so dangly but maybe you can cut those bits off okay nice no I need to do yours what about my sensory thing where I have to take all my jewellery off at night that's okay this invisible red thread is a sign of fate that we were destined to be together is this like a friendship bracelet I really want to go I feel like I'm proposing to you right now with this red thread of fate right okay do DIY do it yourself cheers is bring your own red thread and now we do a pinky prompt except we've got the same hands and we say red thread until you're dead red thread until I'm dead okay we're together forever cool through life's unexpected twists and turns through more plot twists than Netflix through more arguments than Jeremy Kyle which is amazing have I got food in my teeth?

36:13We're still standing and we're going to be back for season two. Okay. Thank you to you for being a wonderful podcast host. Thanks, darling. Thank you to you for being a fantastic listener and podcast host. Best qualities. Anyway, guys, I just wanted to say such a huge thank you to the millions of people. We can say that now. Two plus million. that have listened to and supported this podcast we are so grateful to every single one of you that has tuned in to us every week um thank you thank you thank you to the bottom of our hearts we love being able to connect with all of you beautiful souls and also a massive thank you to our sponsors because we love all of your products otherwise we would not agree to working with you um and you guys help make this podcast possible but largest thank you of all goes to astrid our incredible podcast production team for teaching us everything we know in the podcast space we landed into your laps complete virgins and we now know a little bit about podcasting and none of this would be possible without you and your amazing team charlie thank you and yeah you guys really have have completely shaped the way that the whole thing this whole thing works and gets delivered to the public and the way it looks which is phenomenal and the edits and And, you know, much like parenting, like it really takes a village.

37:44Like it's an enormous operation actually behind the scenes. So thank you for being so patient with us as well. And sitting in on our hours of chat and our occasional arguments as well. And for being so non-judgmental and allowing us this space without chiming in. Lots trying to tame us. for letting us be ourselves yeah thank you guys and thanks for taking a huge risk as well because we had no idea whether this podcast was going to be a success and we didn't monetize it for a very very long time while we were just trying to figure out who we are because we wanted to deliver something um to our listener that felt really authentic without being overcrowded by noise from brands so it's really been like a true passion project and hopefully something that's done a bit of good as well i'm trying to think of that earnest hemingway quote is it is it the first draft of anything is shit probably if that's the case big ups to the ashid for sticking by us and yeah as you said being real patient and allowing us to find our feet with this i think we'll look back on this in years to come and we will be filled with pride and and just love for everyone that's been involved because as i said before things that are the most difficult are often the most worthwhile doing and you meet points of resistance in different things in life and most people meet that resistance and they crumble and done but we've as a team met resistance found our way through and to to now hit the pause button to take stock and And just, you know, focus on a family thing.

39:37I think it's epic. See you guys soon. Thank you very much. Big love to you all.