What Do We Really Want Our Next Baby to be… Boy or Girl?

0:00Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Avnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective and a squad of Americans including me, on the ground with the U.S.

0:32national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

1:01howdy oh howdy purple trowel your towelette flannel trowel we've got quite fruities there

1:10Louise: look at me with my animal i come alive in the spring you know that i'm a colorful little bean you are um so we survived the bank holiday down in devon with your family we did three full nights yeah i say just actually i am having a flare-up that's what happens when i go down to devon It was nice though. Nice to be down by the seaside. Took Leo down and thought that it was going to be good for a little behavioral training with his female cousins, who he doesn't see quite as often. They're very good with him, actually. They're very good with him, but he was not so good with them. I think what we need to drill into him is that he's only allowed to wrestle certain people.

1:52Louise: And that's you. Who else is it? No, just me. Just you. Maybe like your brother and your dad. No, but that's the problem. Not girls. He's not allowed to be rough with girls. Like he started now doing it with me. He's like hanging off my neck. Yeah. It's not, I don't want to put the blame on anyone, but I just know that when we were down in Devon, obviously he's seeing my nieces, his cousins. But in amongst that, he's also seeing granddad and his uncle. And obviously they don't get to see him that often. So they're up for the rough and tumble. So he's probably like, yes, wrestle time. So he like revs him up.

2:23And then we expect Leo to then like transition to dollhouse moments with the girls. And it's like, that would be difficult for me.

2:31Louise: Yeah, I think the thing is when Leo plays with his little male cousins, they can give it to him back. Whereas girls are quite polite. So lovely Sophie and Chloe are like sat there on the sofa being strangled and they don't know how to answer it. They just like let it happen. Like that's really not okay. Oh God. Something happened. Something's happened over the last couple of weeks. I've clocked it as well. But I've actually spoken to a bunch of other dads about this. He's basically got to this new phase where it's become so tricky that most days I question whether he's okay and whether we've done something really wrong.

3:11Louise: Is that normal? Any other parents out there that feel the same? No, but I don't know if this is just synonymous with your personality and you go into like the worst case scenario but it's a little bit frustrating when you're like there must be something wrong with him no i look that sounds awful i can't say that i did call you yesterday everything is a struggle i had to go and drop off like a second pair of shoes to nursery half an hour after i dropped him off because the laces were not done up correctly and they didn't match on both sides and we'd maybe tried like six different times but are we not being boundaried enough yes that's exactly what the problem is but then it's hard because if they're like really upset you're like god well i don't want to traumatize them i don't just want to say like no deal with it if he's like crying about her shoelaces not being equal because as someone that suffers sensory issues i know how that can feel what do you have the sensory thing as well no i'm fine with shoelaces but i like to be like braless and pantless and in just super comfortable clothes so his obsession with shorts does make a lot of sense to me i had a conversation with many dads like at least four okay they're all going through very similar things if not right now they have been through them and one particularly interesting conversation was with my new agent he's got two sons 13 and 15 had a really good chat with him he later calls me that day to say i've had a conversation with my wife like this she's reminded me that both of our boys went through this and i forgot to tell you this part and it's basically like the sort of natural body clot in a toddler's transition and development whereby at his age now he's almost completed nursery he's figured out what they expect he's figured out the boundaries he's looking for more challenges and the same applies to the home environment really he's kind of figured out like how to play mum off dad and vice versa he's figured out how to be cutesy to get the result he wants and he's kind of like constantly jamming and pushing boundaries i don't think this has been like a sudden onset of like, oh my God, who's this little goblin?

5:10He's been warming up to this for a while. And he's like, cause we love him so much and he's bloody cute. He gets away with it. And I think when we went to Antigua, we were just probably up for a relax. And then we started to realise that, oh my God, this little dude is completely mugging us off. And he hasn't actually stopped since. But I think it's been like a slow buildup and he's just reached this stage. It's a natural stage for a four and a half year old almost. and I think what he's saying is like I'm ready for the next challenge i.e. school so in September there's me thinking that I'd like hold his hand and be upset I'm gonna be like go and take on those challenges little dude

5:50Louise: maybe we're not challenging him enough well I'd have to say when you were reading that book yesterday in bed what book? which was like with the shiny tractor and the fluffy tail and I was like I think he's past that I think he's past that I let him choose the book and he chose that. I know, but again, because we think it's cute, we're like, ah, it's all right. I'm not ready for him not to be a baby. This also relates to the idea of consistent boundaries. Because he's so cute and we love him so much. He often, you know, gets away with, and I'm as guilty of letting the guy down as you are, but that consistency is what I think makes him rule the fucking roost at home, basically.

6:32Louise: Yes. I'm going to try some new tactics. Same. We always make this plan, though, and it never happens. It does happen. No, he had two ice creams yesterday, again, and we've even spoken about it on the podcast before. No ice cream. Where did the first ice cream come from? Sam. Right. So external parties coming in to ruffle the feathers. Not helpful. Yeah, but just because Sam's given him one ice cream, it doesn't mean that you then need to go out and later give him a second ice cream. I'm his dad. I get the first card to play. I took him on a 10k run Which was actually supposed to be with him on a run He told me that he wanted to do more exercise He's got too much energy Like I get the feeling Like he comes home and he's been penned up in this little nursery Being really well behaved all day And he wants to explode I think like his bad behaviour is actually Or him being slightly unusual at home Is a compliment to us Because it means he feels comfortable to be himself So he can just like let it all out The moment he walks through the front door Leo will be starting a school that is mixed as in there's girls and boys in the same building but they're actually educated separately which I think is quite controversial.

7:44I'm just trying to think did I even notice that on my walk around? I don't remember.

7:47Louise: What do you mean? That's the whole point. But you didn't notice that he'll be in a that there's a slightly separate boys school and a girls school within the school. No, my point is like when I was on the tour I wasn't focusing on the kids. I was looking at the teachers more so and the classrooms. So I don't actually remember seeing any little faces in there. That is the difference between a man and a woman. So you're looking at the kids when you go. I'm looking at the manners of the children. Interesting. Yeah. I think that's the most important thing. I'm watching how the teacher operates and interacts.

8:22Louise: So actually Leo will be, he'll be around just boys, which oh i think is a good thing because i think boys need a little bit of extra attention boys and girls just as kids like operate so differently i think different species mate they're all different species but i think girls are like always looking to please they're looking to do the right thing they maybe do have slightly less energy they're better at like classroom based activity and like they learn a certain way whereas i think uh to be fair all I have to go off is the differences between me and Sam I just felt like he needed more attention so I think Leo needs needs more attention then again he won't have the good influence of the girls so actually it could be a terrible idea because he'll just be surrounded by other boys lunchtime's going to be an absolute riot then when he gets into that canteen he's going to be like there's the chicas he's gonna be holding his tray with one hand oh you wouldn't even get that gag would you no we had trays yeah but the boys would hold them with one hand so you thought the girls would fancy you if you held a tray with one hand like when you go it's so funny thinking about this now when you're like in the junior part of the school i remember walking from like the canteen section into the dining hall and you'd have two hands and you'd be like looking for a spot to see a spot to sit down and then when he gets like sick form it's like one hand you're like sauntering down there you're I'll sit anywhere.

9:50That's going to be Leo.

9:52Louise: We used to have this thing at school in the canteen where you'd hold your tray and people would pull your pants down, your trousers down. So then you'd have to drop. Again, your school is just weird. You'd have to drop your tray. That is brutal, mate. Isn't that brutal? What do you think Leo's going to be like when he grows up? Gosh. What's he going to be like when he grows up? It's so hard to tell. I think he's really handsome. He is. I think he's a bit like goofy. Yeah. Do they go together? because he's just like he likes to just like be silly oh okay you mean sort of goofy mannerisms yeah oh right so he meant like actual like goofy it doesn't look like goofy from Disney what's he going to be like in school an absolute slayer what do you what does that even mean what do you okay what do you want him to be like I don't know I don't know what he's going to be like but I've got I've got high hopes that he's going to be a stellar bloke would you want him to be like in the cool group he will be in the i would want i want him to sit somewhere like in the middle i want him to be the peacekeeper mate his name's leo hunter he's already in the cool group ryan that's not how it works yes it is you can't just no yes oh god he's a boy for boys at some point it does matter you were a teacher's pet yeah I was actually I was like a peacekeeper I like got along with everybody I was always kind to everyone but then I also was like sometimes would hang out with like the cool group so I'd go and smoke in the woods and drink in like bathrooms and stuff it's quite boring being like you've been doing the same thing five days a week with a such a structure looking for new challenges weren't you looking for new challenges and those were my challenges but i never really got in trouble what would you like our next child to be that's a big question that's a big question well i've got two two schools of thought on that one if we have another one am i likely to want another one after that i don't know let's just say we have let's just let's just hypothesize for a moment yeah we have two children i guess the jack part is to have a boy and a girl because then you can experience both but i i still have real like i don't know reservation or hesitation about having a daughter especially in this current state of the world these chumps all around would you be protective probably too too protective i've decided actually when i was down in devon i think i'd like another boy you sort of about to tell me something have You engineered some?

12:28Louise: No. No, no, we can't engineer. I wouldn't like to engineer anything. And I think it might be quite nice actually this time around to have a surprise. Oh, interesting. There's no way that you'd roll that though. You'd want to know from the earliest opportunity. No, I think it would be good. I think it would be nice to have a surprise, to make it a surprise. Fair. For like your second, you know? I mean, I agree. Because either way, it doesn't matter. I think like the dream scenario is like boy, boy, girl. Right, here we go. If I'm putting it out there. two others we've gone from one to three then boy boy girl boy girl boy boy boys get along so because there's an age gap i was thinking an older boy would get along with a younger boy or a girl but boys basically i wouldn't want two girls i'm just going to put it out there it's i don't know just just feels like competitive a lot of hormones to yeah manage i don't know whether it's something to do with spring and it feeling like really like fertile time or a time when there's like new beginnings or there are you know obviously like animals give birth and you've got like little animals little lambs and things running around and I think just the like shift and how things feel at home um we've also been working on like this mini project changing Leo's bedroom I've started reminiscing a lot on the time that we had at home just before he was born so when we were in that like nesting period and like building cots and things and I've started as I'm like mooching around the house like changing bits of furniture I've been really imagining like where we would put a baby and imagining like where we would have a cot and like you know we decided to keep the chest of drawers that Leo had so that we could maybe have them for our second child and it feels really exciting and for the first time I feel really really ready for it like I don't feel scared at all I have no hesitations I'm just remembering a lot of positive memories from being pregnant and and like setting up a home ready for that and those early stages which is really nice it means that like I'm less traumatized by the first few years that we spent with Leo that were bad you know all those bad memories seem to be like leaving my brain and I'm starting to remember all the good times and how it felt quite nice to be on like a bit of a maternity leave and to go to those music classes.

14:49And I feel like I'm really excited by the

14:53Louise: idea of having like a baby boy. I don't know why. Why is that? Is that because we've already got a boy and they're brilliant? That's not how we started the episode. Would you not say he was brilliant five minutes ago? No, I know. But it's so, isn't it crazy as a parent, like you literally find a scenario like torturous but then also you love that person so much so conflicting parenthood is nuts yeah i don't know i don't know why you've come to that uh decision but if i look back at like some of the times that i struggled with when it came to like body image or confidence or relationships i genuinely think it's easier to be a boy in this world and i think that raising a boy or a brood of boys would be easier like having three boys great I don't know if it's easier being a bloke.

15:44I know what you mean. Like the surface level of that conversation, yes, it's easier. For example, I can step out of the shower, towel dry my hair and slip on these fruity trousers. Many other steps to that process for you. But like, I don't know if it's easier to be a man in this world. I feel like men sit and have a lot of ruminating thoughts that no one knows about except for other men. And only a few other men will share with those other men.

16:11Louise: I guess in a sense, being a woman, I'm slightly naive as to what the challenges might be for a little boy growing up. Whereas I'm so aware of what it's like to be a girl and how hard that can be. So it feels safer to have boys. From your perspective, yeah. Yeah. But because I am a boy or a man, I actually know what it really feels like. Just look at the male suicide rates versus women. that tells you quite enough that tells you quite enough on the situation when you really look at that and you think oh my gosh like maybe it's not that easy for men i remember doing a 13 hour workout with a bunch of blokes for a charity called movember 13 men a day can't handle it that's absolutely staggering what i would say is i think women are really really strong and resilient and i think that the whole community and communication and conversation that you guys function with daily is where men should get to but it's very very difficult to get there i remember before we found out what we were having you quite shamelessly wanted a boy i think i find the idea of being a dad a father to a daughter quite scary

17:31i would imagine it's a very very different experience what sort of things do you find scary

17:37Louise: like the idea is it like because they're kind of unrecognizable i suppose it's a different it's a different experience isn't it so with a son so a father and son as a dad you're trying to set the standard so that he can emulate and copy and he can kind of uh inherit the same moral blueprint that you've got and you know hopefully be a good man i think with a daughter it's a different kind of pressure and expectation because they're not trying to emulate but they're they're formulating an expectation of what a man will eventually treat her like it's potentially an even bigger role because you're like i need to i need to show my daughter what she's deserved of in a way well they do say that people often date like women often choose to date men that are similar to their father so i suppose you're still setting a you're still a role model yeah i think i think shows like the manosphere i think probably uh maybe ignited some of those fears that i had anyway like these these types of people that are in the manosphere they're not necessarily new i think these people have been around for a long, long time.

18:53I think the only difference is now that we're almost, not celebrating it, but we're giving them so much attention and glorifying and rewarding them with huge extortionate amounts of money and fame and platforms that can give them access to anywhere. But I just think, you know, having blokes like that who are carving such a path in this world and they've got however many millions of people following them, yeah, I find it terrifying because they're so degrading towards women and they think that they're objects that us as men own and can dominate and silence and squeeze into a version that they think is acceptable.

19:35And that is terrifying. And so wrong in so many ways. And me now as a dad to a son and whatever comes next in our lives as parents, you know ignoring ignoring the position that we're in in any any like profile or platform that's irrelevant i have a role to play to counter what they're doing i think it's really um interesting that you felt so deeply when we watched that you felt so emotional when we

20:10Louise: watched that show like we started watching the louis through manosphere show and ryan literally had to stop it he was like i can't go on and there'd be a lot of people that just like watch shit and they're like haha those people are such idiots but for you like it gave you such a visceral reaction i've got it now you've got it now again like it makes you so emotional i just why do you think that is i just i have a real problem with the fact that we're amplifying the wrong people and the wrong message message in this world it really bothers me so what are you going to do about it i wrote a letter to louis through and i told him my thoughts on the manosphere um what am i going to do about it i'm going to make sure that i raise a really respectful man in leo and just highlight the the opposite the bullshit that the manosphere stand for what would you do if leo started consuming that kind of content I sorry I just we live in a world that just amplifies the noisy characters yeah just who just do things to grab attention like the fucking bonnie blue thing faking a pregnancy that infuriates me on the notes for this I actually swore and like geez probably never seen me type a swear word on it but that's me being me I get fucking annoyed by this she would have earned and gained however many followers on that pregnancy hype story meanwhile there's women that you know who are really really struggling to to build families she doesn't give a fuck about that she's thinking about how can i amplify myself and shoot to the next level of fame and wealth and whatever else i absolutely hate it but that's the world we live in so i've got to figure out something i can do consistently and hopefully effectively to counter all that it's definitely not something i can do by myself but i'll i'll have a crack at it what if you went up to leo's bedroom and he was watching an andrew tate woman woman hating video i'd snap the fucking phone in half and i'd pack a bag and i'd say we're going camping for as long as this takes for you to hear the message wow i'm literally holding back the tears right now because i feel so strongly about this i don't even know why i'm I'm feeling so emotional because I can almost sadly see that that could be something that I'm faced with.

22:41And that will be the biggest test I will face as a dad, I think.

22:44Louise: The thing is, is as a parent, you always think like that, God, I feel emotional. You always think that like things won't happen to your children. You always think like, okay, you do a good job and that, oh my God, why is this fucking making me cry? you always think that you're good like as long as you do a good job they're gonna turn out okay and that they're gonna be good people with good morals but what the fuck if they don't like you know even this challenging moment with Leo currently as he's studying four and a half I'm like I didn't teach you those manners like why are you come where are you coming out with this stuff from when he's just actually testing us he's not even doing anything that crazy but like sometimes you know it's just like the way he'll look at me and be like no I'm like oh my god that's quite scary like it's actually alarming and I think like when you go through these various milestones when your children grow up like sometimes it's quite shocking because as I've said before when talking you know about Mother's Day like it's our first time parenting too and sometimes it's it really teaches you a lesson every day every week every month and you just have got to hope that that doesn't happen to your kid you've just got to hope that they don't fall into the crew at school who are watching those kinds of videos because how do you pull them out of that like it's not even necessarily parents the fault of parents if it's the thing that is circulating I don't know what I would do I know that there's so much at the moment in the press about screen time and children having access to screens and actually on my birthday so March 26th the government announced that they were they announced some new guidance on screen time which so many people have been campaigning for and they've basically recommended that children under two don't consume screens except for the odd social things to say facetiming a grandparent for 20 minutes that might live in Devon and they've also suggested that children between the ages of two and five only consume an hour a day maximum and not consume while they're eating food so not a meal time so it's like a distraction which I'm totally on board with and you actually do watch TV when you eat and I think we need to stop that because it just like eradicates that is the moment where you sit down as a family and you have time to have a proper conversation and like decompress from the day um also not an hour before bed and uh not to let your children consume things that have been ai generated or things that are short form content so like quick viral memes and reels yeah i mean i'm fucking completely on board with that and i guess that's it's good to hear that like you know these sorts of conversations are happening um before we get to the stage where leo enters adolescence so his early teens where people might start having phones at schools i do look at his cousins um as like really positive examples people that don't have phones they've not been allowed phones and to be honest like i think we like and it's it's horrible to say this because there are people out there that have kids who will not be interested in sport like i have spoken to so many friends who say like they're the saving grace is that their children are sporty because you have to get children outside you have to distract them with other hobbies like they cannot be sitting out sitting inside glued to a computer gaming with headphones on because also children get to a certain stage i'm sure where you know they hit puberty where they you have to knock before you enter their room like they could be doing anything in there and you need to warrant them like a certain amount of privacy so then you don't really know what they're doing and that's petrifying i've not really thought about this in that much detail until i just asked you that question about like walking into leo's room and him having a phone imagine him hiding a phone under the bed like that is a horrendous thought well it won't be happening so we need to make sure as parents that we try to encourage open communication where he trusts us and he can tell us everything and he can be honest about doing silly stuff and making mistakes and you know all of the messy parts of life so he doesn't ever feel like he needs to hide things from us so i came across this really horrendous stat the other day which just proves that parents clearly don't know what their children are consuming that one in ten under nine year olds has seen porn that's leo and in like four and a half years that is mortifying yes gosh we really grew up in a sweet era with the whole porn thing it's is it on parents the responsibilities on parents is it on schools to educate their children like children on what they might see out there and what to try to avoid what's realistic

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28:39Louise: No affiliation with Novo Nordisk, Inc., the only U.S. source of FDA-approved semaglutide. Not available in all 50 U.S. states. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment.

29:11We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is, if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis.

29:40The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

29:53It's definitely a combination of the two, but I think it starts at home.

29:56Louise: Do we also limit then what age she gets a phone? Fucking right. What age do you think is reasonable? I think if a child's walking to school... 16. 16, yeah. there's absolutely no reason why you need one before yeah well actually what are the reasons i'll pick you up wherever you're going to be i'll take you to where you need to be like in between that i'll drive you to your sleepovers with your mates or whatever else school rugby tour whatever whatever it is if you want to take photos you can have a camera yeah correct what else do people do on phones there's no social media sorry there's no massive sorry leo i know we're really hypocritical that we work in this industry but you're not going to have a phone and we're not gonna have any social media but that's also that's also another thing worth talking about as well right now he exists on social media because we're doing we we have designed it in we we have full control about that i'm actually quite motivated for him to to be off tech for as long as possible including social media i didn't have a phone until i was 16 and then it was nokia and we played snake i don't think kids even need to be playing games like snake is probably the limit i had one when i was 13 but it was like a big thing with an aerial and I used to use it to call my dad in Iraq and I'd be like, get me out of this fucking school.

31:10Louise: Wait, you had a big phone with an aerial? What, like a pullout, like a clueless 90s jobby? Yeah, I'm trying to think what brand it was. So epic. I think it was like a Motorola phone, yeah. Oh, and then I remember BlackBerry's with BB, BBN? BBN, yeah. So that was, I love that. I was never cool enough for a BlackBerry. And you could ping people. Obviously, there are quite a few good memories that revolve around phone upgrades. so that's the problem and it sucks you in the colour cases all these kids then want differences is I think phones were a bit maybe not a bit more affordable back then you now have children that every year they want like the latest iPhone and you're suddenly dropping like a thousand pounds every Christmas it's not happening man some people have multiple kids that's 5k for a couple of phones at Christmas it's not happening but at the same time we have as he gets older he's going to be he'll be like well you and mum are on these devices all the time.

32:06What about me, dude?

32:07Louise: Well, I think the thing is... So we need to figure out our response to that because that's going to be a really pivotal moment. Hypothetical scenario here. You're sat at the dinner table and Leah's going, Louis and Margot and Maya have all got phones. They've had them for a year and I would really like one. I'll be like, okay, cool. I'm going to call Louis' dad right now. I'm going to ask him if he regrets the decision. and if we and i'll open the conversation to be like what does he use it for do you police it is it kind of monitored in any way what sort of phone is it i would i would let him see me taking some sort of action to figure out like all right i hear you i hear what you're saying let me try and see if i can get to where you're at with it i wouldn't just be like no dude you're so smart because if you say no they're like no they want it even more but that's a good answer i think yeah you're like showing steps to maybe get one, but then like presenting some options as to why it's not a good idea.

33:01I'd keep gently pushing it back, but he'll be thinking that I'm trying to get to the solution of like, we're going to go and buy the phone. But I'd just keep gently nudging him back. I'd be like, now I'm going to go and see Margot's dad. Now I'm going to go and see Mia's mum. I'd play that game for as long as I could.

33:21Louise: For like five years. Yeah. But then I'd also be on the phone and say Louis' dad would be like, Will you keep that fucking phone away from Leo? And then what if he says, yeah, but dad, like you and mum, you work in this industry. I just want to follow what you guys are up to so I can see it because other people are seeing it, what you do first. I tell him that before I met your mum, I was a personal trainer and I was much happier. I'm in this trade because I fell into it by default. And ultimately this industry is about photos and storytelling. So let's go and get you a camera. And let's start building scrapbooks.

33:59Louise: You've actually already thought about this. Fucking right, I've thought about it. How have you thought about this? Because I'm a man that sits on things that ruminates. I told you at the start. Should we hypothesize and should we see what you're going to say? Louise, if we're in the car and Leo is in the back with his headphones on, rocking out, he's like, yo, mum. And it shows I can get the new iPhone 28. I want him to call me mummy always. fucking hell so not mum when I first met you and I the whole mummy and daddy thing I think that stops around about 13 okay so fine he's can't have Leo being like mummy no anyway what are you saying what's your response to I want the new iPhone 28 oh god okay Leo hasn't thought about it no I haven't thought about it because it feels so far off but it's not going to be that far off I think I would say look Leo I was really really lucky to have such a brilliant childhood nah he's like mum get to the next bit and I'm like and I didn't have a phone until I was 16 and I turned out really good so or I'd be like I'd just pivot and I'd be like should we I'll tell you what feels better than aimless scrolling going out and playing some paddle together I bet I can beat you competition and he's like cool mum but like Like we already played Paddle this morning.

35:26Louise: And then I'm like, oh shit, time for, then I'm like, God, it's eight weeks into the school holidays. How am I keeping him off a screen? Sounds like you don't lose that. Okay, so then we have to go, okay, we've got a computer. After you've done your homework, the bit of screen time, you could maybe play like an Age of Empires or something for an hour. And like, that's the limit. So, but you've got to do something to earn that screen time, I think. So then it's, can you unload the dishwasher and do a couple of little chores to help me out? And then you can like do some stuff, gaming. When do you think we're going to give him his first proper job as in pay for money?

36:10Because I've thought about this as well.

36:12Louise: Have you? I actually thought about like his money box the other day. When he's five is the answer. Okay, what's his, he's going to start earning money at five. Yeah, I'm going to start giving him chores. And it'll be things like carry your laundry bag to the basement. I already do that, Ryan. Not for money, mate. Not for money. And by the way, did you say you already do that? You carry it. No, as in like I get him to do little chores in the morning. Okay, let me continue. Unload the dishwasher with me. Yeah, but I don't think we can always, we're going to be broke. He's going to be doing that every day.

36:42No, this is one pound a week for chores. And I'm going to teach him the compound effect of what that happens over time.

36:49Louise: Is this because you're so money illiterate that you're like, my son needs to be better? That's a separate competition, but yes. It's more about like teaching him the value of, well, yeah, money, but also just diligence and doing things to help around the house and just starting early on that whole thing. Mate, how have you not thought about this? This is what I literally sit on this shit daily. Why do you never talk to me about it? I love this stuff. we actually asked our listeners on socials what their views were on screen time and we got some really interesting responses and this is a conversation i also have with so many friends um so some of the mixed responses were lots of people said they just go with the flow and don't demonize themselves for using it as a parent using what the screens right some say that they limit it lots of people talking about how these specific timers so one hour daily which i guess is in line with the sort of UK government recommended guidelines and they limit or they limit it only to weekends, which I think is interesting.

37:51Louise: And also then some people say that they take it away and I just don't know how I feel about this. They take it away as a punishment for behaviour with some parents talking about being scared of their kids' reactions to losing screens, saying it's like losing a limb. As in their reactions are sort of to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. So they have such a breakdown. so it sounds like some people just let their kids play with screens sort of unlimited to an unlimited capacity and then they'll take it away as a punishment for bad behavior or they'll use it as like a bargaining tool i've seen i've seen this and then the kids have such breakdowns that they're like actually scared by their reaction because they're like oh my god my child's like about to die i've seen this you've seen that also seen in antigua remember that lunch table there's three or four kids maybe individual headsets individual ipads i have friends didn't look up kids and like all the kids have their own iPads like they've got their own ones and they all have these like rubber cases on them and they're carrying them around on holiday so this is a different thing that we need to factor in we are very lucky that Leo goes to nursery five days a week and that was something that happened gradually so he used to half days and he used to just a few days a week and then we built up to that but for the last couple of years he's essentially had a full-time job which allows us to do our full-time jobs and have lots of adult conversation during the week which is a huge privilege um it also means that we sorry i was just a counter is what i said so different people have different circumstances and there are groups of people i have some friends who are stay-at-home mothers who if you're engaging with your child or children all day long from when they wake up at 7 a.m to 7 p.m in the evening when they go to sleep that's 12 hours sometimes you might find that you need a break and that might look like distracting your children with mrs rachel oh that's fair enough whilst you do the washing that's a slightly different or whilst you go and like organize a cupboard or you cook some lunch or something and so i think like it's very easy for us to sit here and be super judgmental about people i'm not being judgmental no no no i know i'm not criticizing you right i'm just saying that we we've actually cultivated a really wonderful balanced week for ourselves which means that because also i have no i have no doubt that there'll be people that'll be listening they'll be like you guys are on screens all the time you share your son's face on social media and you live in the stuff which is which is true but we i work fairly and we work you work slightly less intensely on screens during the week deliberately we do like a lot and then the moment that we pick up leo from nursery in the evenings it screens down and then on the weekend it screens down so we're organized and it's all screens when he's not around and then no screens when he's around so we're really lucky because he doesn't see us on screens he doesn't have the urge to and he's not chasing that desire whereas i have friends who are literally like obviously sat home bored that are on their phone scrolling looking at like parenting TikToks for a laugh because they don't have the privilege of going out to work and having human connection with grown-ups and so their kids do see them a couple of hours a day being on a screen so I don't know what where people I don't know how people manage it really like there's a reason why kids tv is so popular.

41:21Louise: Most of our friends used to talk about it. I actually remember asking friends because Leo never watched any TV because we were always so busy doing stuff. Like what, what were the things? I was like, I don't know what's on trend. Like when people say, what's Leo into at the moment, I'm like, he's not really into anything. And maybe that's bad because he's not into Spider-Man or Paw Patrol or Peppa Pig or, you know, those big hitting things. He is, I guess, through into some stuff through like children's books and authors that we love, but he's not, into those like trend-led little people things.

41:54Louise: I was surprised the other day that he knew one of the songs from Frozen because like we've never watched it all together as a family. Other kids are like literally watching that movie every single day. All of his friends at school, their favourite colour, Elsa blue. And I was like, oh my God, that's genius. But like Leo wouldn't have, it's not like Spider-Man Red because we're not really like engaging with like popular culture. Are we living in the dark ages? no we're living in the right age she doesn't see how i see it we're living in the right age when i when leo was small i can't remember how small like instead of this whole miss rachel and whatever else and trying to think of other examples yeah but we can't coco melon coco melon mate i was putting i was going on to youtube and i can't remember the name of the guy i feel like it was jeff something but it's just some like busker i was youtubing some guitar playing busker who would like pitch up in different cities in the world remember him yeah yeah with the whole foot loop that's why he loves guitar and like leo was he'd be sat in the chest harness and he'd be like bob in his head like and like he'd do that for like five minutes i'd be like well i think he might might enjoy this so we did that we did that for a while but like he's that's why he's got like 16 guitars and he's like yeah i love orange orange guitar like you know i mean like he associates literally why but like it's just makes a much slower it's a much slower form of it's just one bloke with a footloot with a guitar in a city and he's and that is okay direct facts everyone is would have seen this because leo is always everywhere with a guitar that is literally why he loves music and loves dancing and love and he's always like this is because when he was under two that's what he was consuming they are so impressionable sponges and the problem is is that there are now lots of studies that show that consuming the short form content is literally changing people's brains yeah change your mind adults but also children's who are even more malleable and it's going to have really detrimental um consequences on their mental health i think and also their ability to concentrate and i wouldn't be surprised if there's a huge surge of adhd and other neuro don't worry there's a book coming out from sam thompson yeah he's got an adhd book coming out yeah so but yeah i think it's going to have like really long-term effects on that next generation constant scrolling i noticed that has a big difference on my mental capacity and my ability to concentrate i'm like constantly jumping around from one thing to the next and these poor children that sat there for hours on end are sat in a fear state where they feel scared, but they don't know that they feel scared, but their body is producing so much extra cortisol that they don't know how to contain it.

44:43Louise: And then children are probably getting in trouble at school because they can't sit still and they're fidgeting and they're, you know, they're just like bursting inside. That's terrifying. But you're right. I feel like this is all quite obvious in my mind. It's not for other people. No, well. Because these media conglomerates are literally, their whole businesses thrive off of getting people addicted. So actually it's happening without people even realising. For any parents that are interested in reading a bit more about this, I did really enjoy the book An Anxious Generation, which talks a lot about the switch from play-based childhood experiences to screen-based childhood experiences.

45:31Louise: and the impacts on mental health that have already occurred from about 2012 when Facebook blew up. It's really interesting. Like the levels of depression are rocketing. I mean, yeah, anyway, read the book because I can't remember all the statistics. It's part of the reason why I get frustrated about just the volume of toys that he has because there's no space for him to even get bored. it's just a vast menu of choices of toys in front of him and first of all that either paralyzes you because you're like I don't know how to start so you give up straight away and then you start being annoying to mum and dad and then if you do get into it it's just too complicated and too complex it just needs to be very basic so that they can play with one thing and then if they get a bit bored they might eye up the sofa and be like I could rearrange those cushions into a skate ramp something like imaginative do you know what I mean?

46:27It's when your brain really kind of stops overthinking and you start to create enough space in your mind for thoughts to enter. Do you know what I mean?

46:36Louise: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like all this stimulus just creates like over analysis, overthinking, choice, choice, problem, solution, blah, blah, blah. Like the moment you start to enter that slightly clearer space of I'm a little bit bored, wallop, you get an idea of something new and you're like, sweet, I'm going to go and use those ladles to play some drums. and i'm like that's that like that's where we need to be with just like that's still where i am by the way you're like you you've had like snippets of it where you're like i've you you're at your most peaceful and joyful and you when you're jigsawing but that even even then i don't know yeah but that's actually one of the good is it antidotes to all of this is um well it's finding ways to allow yourself to get bored i guess it's by looking at things like puzzles and stuff and they are good ways of keeping your brain health good we know what we're going to allow leo to get bored yeah i agree definitely yeah no i think i think it's a really important thing for us to remember give him give him the chance to get bored so he doesn't crave this constant stimulus all right we've got some questions from listeners louise big one this week about your sobriety why are you sober actually very good question please say it's for me it's definitely not for me it's for me um it's for everybody really i so i've actually been i've been sober for five years can you believe that yeah it's actually a long time it's half a decade and I why am I sober I actually wanted to be sober for a very long time before that I always knew that I had a really unhealthy relationship with alcohol I started drinking uh from the age of about 14 I started going to nightclubs quite young uh so I was at boarding school and then on the weekends we would go out and we would get bored and I think like a lot of teenagers do this anyway they experiment with drinking I wonder whether I've got like a genetic component that made me not be able to stop once I started drinking and I liked the way that it made me feel and I like the confidence and it that was amplified then when I started spending time with boys because I had very little confidence in kind of male relationships I used to drink a lot I drink to oblivion there's no off switch I would drink to the point of blacking out a lot of people um that haven't blacked out don't believe that blacking out is a thing but I would drink until I wasn't conscious so I wouldn't know what I was doing um and I was everyone's best friend and I was putty in everyone's hands and I became like the entertainer and I think that then ending up in a career where I was on tv um the drinking probably got worse uh I was sort of juggling university and then also trying to film made in chelsea and i think i found it really hard i don't know what made me want to drink more whether it was a relationship thing like bad failed relationships or whether it was like the pressure of trying to be interesting on tv um it was just basically became my personality and this is all like a little bit before you really got to know me although it isn't because when we first started dating one I was still drinking quite a lot and you hated me when I would drink weirdly I would be so um friendly with anybody any stranger anyone like anyone that was a friend but anybody that was really close like part of my inner circle I used to be not very nice to and I think there were like a few instances essentially most of my relationships actually past relationships ended up uh coming to an end because of my drinking behaviors I remember my first ever relationship was actually I'm not even gonna say like what I said but I got so drunk and we had to share a bus home um probably like 16 17 to stay with his parents And I clearly felt so horrible and insecure inside that I decided that it would somehow level the playing field if I said really, really nasty things to this person that I was supposedly in love with.

51:10Louise: There was a series of quite a few bad things that happened. Sometimes I would wake up in weird places. I'd lose stuff. It became very expensive, my drinking habit, because I literally would lose a phone every time I'd go out. I'd lose like handbags and it would take like three days before I'd like properly sober up to then try and like retrace my footsteps and often at that point the anxiety was so bad I was like I don't want to know what I've done so I just turned if I had a phone still I would just I wouldn't charge it anyway so I wouldn't have it for like three days and then and then I'd kind of wake up turn it on like do a bit of damage control start to feel a little bit better and then the same thing would happen again and that was like 50 % of my life and I knew that I was waiting for this epiphany where I would stop like it was like I needed something so bad to happen that I would actually

52:05Louise: stop drinking I just couldn't do it like I just couldn't and in the end it was the it was when I got pregnant that I had no choice isn't that crazy like it took for me to get pregnant with Leo for me to stop to try not drinking for a year and it was great

52:27Louise: and I've never really looked back one of the things that used to give me a lot of anxiety was the idea of having a family and still drinking because I knew that there was no way I could wake up with a hangover and be a responsible parent and look after a screaming baby like it's hard enough just having a cold and looking after a child but have like being incapacitated would would not work so obviously then there was a period where I was really like mentally quite unwell and I couldn't add any other substances into my life during that point because I was on some antidepressants and antipsychotics and really scary medication I hated I was so paranoid about anything that I put in my body I was sort of like had OCD around like consuming certain foods certain drinks um certain medication I thought everything was going to kill me which is really really scary so i definitely didn't add alcohol into my diet then and now i'm much better i almost just think what's the point i have i have really awful memories in our early days of the relationship of you i actually think i've probably erased it from my brain because it was like i really did not like it at all you wouldn't come back until like 7 a.m 9 a.m and i was to do do it be up the whole time being like i hope he's all right checking my phone constantly being like sure there's some level of comms coming through nothing and then i'd see you order like 150 pounds worth of delivery to get you through the next day and then i'd see the smash phones like all the stuff he was saying is entirely true and i'd be sat there basically being like fuck this i'm out so i i hated it why did you stay i don't know why i stayed probably because i felt like i needed to help you somehow you did help me you were you were a bit of a beacon in my recovery i've never been a big drink in myself i can't tolerate booze well at all i have i have it's quite funny because now I'm the one that has beers in the fridge, but I could go T-Total tomorrow.

54:37Why don't you? I think now I'm just, I'm probably just a little bit up, a bit more up for the kind of like social relaxed interactions over a beer. And like going to the pub, I did it on, I did it on Tuesday. I went through, I didn't even tell you. I went to the pub with Will and Tony for a beer. And I was like, this is kind of fun. but like in reality in the reality is that i had one beer and got a buzz on it they had two and they're like they're sat across me sat across from the table just like smirking at me because they know that i'm just it's not my environment but i'm at the stage in life where i'm like i'm actually up for being here sounds like alcohol for you at one point was like a mask of lack of confidence you're like i'll just get shelled and then everyone will think i'm really jokes because i'm so lubed up on yeah sambuca or whatever it is you're drinking my mask for a lack of confidence was to train and to like build muscle.

55:32Louise: I know which one I'd rather have. Yeah, but now I'm not, I'm not, I don't know, I'm just like a soggy soup sandwich over here these days. Shut up. Leo is going to be the biggest lightweight in the world with us two as parents. I hope he never drinks. I'm all right with, I'm all right. My brother skipped like the sort of like alcohol addiction gene, as did my mom. Your brother skipped the alcohol. he doesn't drink a lot does he no whereas me and my dad yes but i'll tell you giving up alcohol has been the most transformative thing in my entire life the level of efficiency the level the way that like my brain works now is like i am on fire all the time except when i have a hormonal slump oh not now though because you're in the luteal phase sorry ryan i'm actually in the ovulation phase so if i had a womb lining that worked we could get it on and maybe get pregnant but that'd be something that'd be something but but am i looking but am i looking quite glowy yeah am i yeah yeah because this is the good phase i should look great nature's way of saying hey it literally is that's a thing like genuinely whenever i look in the mirror and i'm like oh i look good today i'm always it's always around ovulation right see i've got a question for you from youtube someone's commented in i have a question about your fertility journey at the end of the pod ryan said that if it was up to him you wouldn't be going down the surrogacy route can i ask what ryan would prefer to do the natural way and that basically is the whole issue i have with this is that we can't do it the normal natural way and it's taking me a long time to accept that so obviously i don't obviously i would like to be having lots of sex and making a baby the natural way straight backs um and i'd like to go yeah i'd like to have the whole movie experience of going to the hospital with your overnight bag and coming out the next morning with a little baby carrier and you've had the whole blue scrubs and baby on the chest moment like that is what i wanted but we can't have that so that's that's the difficult part for me in this conversation is it's letting go of that version and accepting something that's not just a little bit different but very very very fucking different and i think if if you make that jump really quick like i think that'd be a bit weird i'm taking i'm not deliberately taking my time over it but i'm it's a very considered like you know it's a bobbly road for me to get to a place of acceptance so whenever we talk about surrogacy i'm still even now like i've let go of the version i wanted but i'm still uh a little bit resentful to it do you do you actually want to have another child are you content with the family you have now i'm very content with the family i've got now how many children did you want to have did you want to have before i had i had strong reservations about having children before i never knew this by the way yes you did no not when we were dating yes i remember literally saying it at the breakfast table with my parents and you and everyone else were like no you'd be a great dad and i was like well none of you clocked what i just said that's bad isn't it yeah no wait so what did you say i said that i have doubts that i'd be able to be a good dad because i thought that i was too selfish with my own time at the time i wanted the freedom and the autonomy and i wanted the option of i don't know you know seeing where my capacities and capabilities would take me career-wise etc and that's when you're when we're like 30 i was 30 yeah i literally remember saying it at the breakfast table it wasn't just you it was my whole family and what did everybody individually one person in the room clocked it it was just like batted down was like no you'd be great like of course you of course you want kids i was like oh fuck it's like all right moving on to keep past the muesli that's literally how it went all right no that's actually terrible i'd like to have more for leo's sake because it'd be fun for him but it's such a like it's uh it's a very muddied pathway in my mind i feel like when you have now that we've like got a family it's like well we're already like bedded into the changes that you make when you have a child oh if i have if i have more kids i know i'll be fucking great at it because if i can if i can find my feet in the turbulent storm that I had in the first year.

1:00:30Round two would be an absolute breeze, brother. I don't know, I actually genuinely mean that.

1:00:38Louise: Well, touch wood. But that's good, if anything. Like that it will be a really positive experience. So when you thought you didn't want children, that was largely because you were fearful that you wouldn't be a good enough dad. Yeah, I thought I'd struggle letting go of what I had. Okay. and now that you have a child how do you feel? Tired.

1:01:10Louise: Are you glad that you have children now? Yes. Good answer. No, of course yeah, of course I am. Are you ready for more? You're all probably hoping that I say yes I can't fucking wait, it's great, we'll have one for Christmas but like in reality I'm like well for me in my mind it's like cool so we've got to a place of settled stable home life now we're about to start playing from the beginning again ball again and I'm like right okay well more sleepless nights just had my transplant what else is next

1:01:49Louise: well listen I think we'll be great parents second time around if we're lucky enough No, fuck. I'm a great parent now. We're great parents now. Yeah, but different. Doing the baby stage again. Thank you guys so much for listening. So we have quite a big surrogacy update that we're going to be dropping in next week's episode. If you want to definitely listen, then I would highly recommend subscribing to He Said, She Said, wherever you listen, so that it will automatically download in your pod app. Also, you can send us an email if you'd like to. we're at h triple s at srproductions.co.uk and ryan says h like h triple h anyway see you next week lots of love adios this has been a staying relevant production

1:02:46immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

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