Calum Scott

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0:45Hello and welcome to Headliners with Nihal Arthanaike. Today I'm speaking to the singer-songwriter Callum Scott, who first came to the nation's attention, of course, on Britain's Got Talent. He has navigated a decade in the spotlight since then, dealing with the highs and the lows of his fame, his popularity. And I just look back and I just go, if I could go back in time and do anything, it would be to tell younger Callum, stop caring so much about what other people think of you because it is going to ruin your teens, it's going to ruin your 20s and you're going to come to a point where the penny drops and you just go, wow, if somebody's got a problem with me, that is their problem.

1:30If I'd sidled up to you at the water cooler at your HR office at Hull City Council and I'd said to you, I'd said to you, do you reckon this is the best it's going to get for both of us? What would you have said? I mean, my first thought would be, Jesus they're spending more money on the office Because we haven't got a walk And then And we'd just be drinking good old Yorkshire tap water But I Yeah I mean obviously the last 10 years For me have been absolutely mental And I don't know for you I'm sure that you have Accolades coming out your bottom And it kind of Plays in without trying to be too markety It kind of plays into what this whole Third album is about which for me came at a time of reflection on where I've come from for the last 10 years, what I've done, what I've achieved, because it's so easy to go from that lad in the HR office, you know, having a cup of Oxford tea, thinking, ah, it'll never happen for me, and then for it to start to happen, and then for this imposter syndrome to come in and go, it's all just luck, and it's going to run out, and at some point you're going to be back at the council, and trying to hush that while still chasing a dream that you can't quite believe has come true.

2:54But you've got to believe that it's come true because you've got to be professional and present and you've got to keep bringing your energy and believing that you're supposed to be there. It's a conundrum, Nihal, I'm not going to lie. So you would have blown my mind at the water cooler asking me that question. But then, would I, do you think, and it's always interesting when you're faced with other people's perceptions of you. Do you think anyone around you in that office saw that you were destined for something else, even if you didn't? No, I don't think. I don't know if it's a northern thing.

3:34I don't know if it's an office mentality. I don't know what it is, but I don't think anybody ever thinks in those environments that you're ever going to go. You're ever going to go anywhere and do anything else. Like promotion and staying within the building Maybe moving through a department But I think there's this kind of Unified We're all in it together, we'll all be here Till we retire basically And it's a weird one Because it's Even when I broke out of working for the council There was a little bit of hostility There was a little bit I think there was a little bit of people going It's not going to last long Or obviously I didn't win the show I got beaten by a dog, which is always a fun fact to put on people's tables.

4:21And I think, you know, that got brought up and it was like, ah, you know, it'll be in the office on Monday and we'll be talking about this dog and whatever. And had it not been for me kind of like just believing in myself a little bit and believing that I had the potential to go on and do something else with my life rather than going back to the council and sort of sat at my desk dreaming about what I'd just done, I think I probably still would have been there. I probably still would have been wanting the water cooler and I probably would have still wanted to do what I do now. It's a weird thing to look back.

5:00It's a beautiful thing to look back on what you've achieved, but it's surreal as well. It's trying to put myself in the shoes of Callum 10 years ago. I just did I'd never have believed it you know what I mean and that's a strange feeling now sat here about to embark on a you know third world tour with a third studio album and fresh off of time with Ed Sheeran it's just mad mad when you went through that process and my gosh 10 years must have gone very quickly since Britain's Got Talent yeah did you say to yourself at any point I can never go back to that council office. I can't. If I do, it would destroy me.

5:47Yeah. I think when it was a bit of a weird situation, Nihal, because I'd gone from being, you know, this very, I would say shy, even though obviously I'm in the business I'm in and it wasn't the first time I'd been on stage when my sister applied us for Britain's Got Talent. but I was still quite reserved and I still didn't really believe in myself. I've only just kind of started believing in myself over the last, I would say last year, this year. So I still didn't really believe in myself at that point. And I think when I'd gone through the show, I'd gone from this normal lad that was working in HR that, you know, had an audition that had captivated people in such a magical way, where it was just me being me and it was me being human and it was me being a big brother and it was me being a son and it was me being hopeful I think all those things that concoction that recipe is what people even to this day message me about saying how powerful that audition was but you know I'd gone from that to thrust into the media I was Bucky's favorite to win somebody put 10 grand on me winning the final which was no pressure um and I'd you know I was having chats with Simon Cowell and my whole life had changed.

7:10And then when I was on the final and I messed up on the song and then just give it everything I had, I thought I've got nothing else to lose now. After that show had finished, you know, and all the family were there, the friends were there, we had a little drink and we'd gone to bed. When I woke up the next morning, everybody who I had at the show as a contact had gone. And my mum was there and my best mates were there and we were on the car back up to Hull. And I thought, this literally is it. This literally, that's it, done, finished. And I was so sad. I mean, that was the most saddest journey I think I've ever made up to Hull ever before.

7:50Just crying, just sobbing, just thinking like, that was a taste of what I've dreamt of doing. And I feel like it's being ripped away. And I genuinely did think that that might be it. and it took a night to sleep on it. And I thought, I can't go back in. On a fresh mind, I thought, there's no way I can step back into that office having achieved what for me was monumental and to have, you know, almost a life plan thrust under my feet. You know, people were talking about record deals. People were talking about touring. I'd signed all of these contracts of live and merchandise and touring. and I had a music lawyer and I thought, my God, like this genuinely is the rest of my life.

8:37And I was so excited for it. And then it just disappeared literally overnight. So I think, yeah, after a fresh head and after genuinely thinking that might've been the end, I got home and I sort of re-evaluated and I thought, no, I deserve to give it a shot. You know what I mean? I deserve, everybody rallied round me. I had so much support. I had people making vote for Callum Scott t-shirts and wearing them in Holland. and it was very, very humbling and I thought I deserve to give myself the opportunity to show that I'm capable and that I deserve it. I think that was the turning point after that.

9:14I went to go see my music law in London. She helped me get some work. I had my first job doing a little gig for BA and they had me in this hangar and it was to celebrate something. I can't remember what it was. It was years ago now and they paid me three grand. Now, that was like a month and a half's worth of work at the council. So I was just like, I'm going to quit. But because my grandparents were very much like part of my growing up and very like, you know, they were from Hull and working class. And, you know, my grandma was a dinner lady. My granddad worked in the Navy for a little bit as merchant seaman.

9:53And so it was always like, you know, save money for a rainy day. Don't make hasty decisions. make sure you've got a job for life. So I put my career break form in Nihal, which was basically a document that said, I'm going to take a sabbatical for 12 months and I'm going to come back in a year's time.

10:15And what's mental is in that year, the song, my version of Dance On My Own, had gone to number one in 23 countries. I'd started touring. I had all this incredible support behind me. And I got a letter 12 months later saying, will you be coming back to work? You know, we're going to expect a new work at whatever day. And I think I've still got it somewhere. It just makes me laugh thinking back to thinking like, did they genuinely expect me to go in the office? I don't know. I don't know. And how life different would have been if I'd have not chased that dream and had gone back in. and yeah, it would have been, I think I'd have kicked myself for the last 10 years.

10:57Well, I mean, that Robin cover that you did was the biggest selling single of summer 2016. The idea that then you would suddenly go, do you know what? I've scratched that itch now. Back to HR for me. I've done it. I've scratched that itch. I'm good now. I'm going back to Cow Park complaints because that's where my heart is. You know what I mean? I need to hear Janet talking about how much she hates people taking their food out of the fridge. That's what I needed. And do you know what, Nihal? In some ways, I miss those little things. I miss, like, I mean, I say that, like, you know, playfully. I do miss, like, routine and, you know, this job can be quite lonely.

11:42Although you're surrounded by support, you're surrounded by a team, you're surrounded by people who love and worship you in some aspects with the fans. it does get lonely and sometimes you think oh it would be nice to just pop into the office and see the same faces that you've seen for the last five days and do you know what I mean I know that sounds a bit random but those little things do yeah you do you do miss those little bits I mean I'm not asking to go back to HR in any way shape or form but it's a nice thought there's so much on this album about love needing love celebrating love finding that person losing yourself in that person is that you manifesting it out into the universe or is that a representation of the reality that you now find yourself in well all of my all of my music has been born from you know life experience things that i've been through stories of from from people close to me that i've heard that has moved me to a point where i want to write about it And I think, you know, for me, albums are ways of being able to You know, like therapy You know, you're sort of self-medicating in a way Because you're getting things off your chest You're talking about how you feel I've always felt that that's really important for me Growing up, it was important I had a lot of therapy when I was growing up And getting things off your chest is one thing I know I'm sort of going off on a bit of a tangent here, talking about mental health, but I'm very passionate about it.

13:21But I think with mental health, you know, you can go down the route of thinking, well, encouraging people to talk, you know, you should talk to people, you should talk to each other. And I think there's one thing of talking to each other, but some people feel a little bit afraid of that, of engaging in a conversation. So I think sometimes even just talking, you know, just getting out into the world, how you're feeling, and getting it off your chest and off your mind, for me was invaluable. And that's kind of what's happened with my song, right? It's become that vessel. And the first and second album for sure was relationships that I'd had or thought that I had, you know, and this third album is really no different.

14:03The relationships either that I've had or that, like you say, that I'm manifesting to have, you know, you watch those love stories and love films and, you know, You watch the relationships that you see on the big screen and it's just so perfect. And you just go, I just want that for myself. I know that you say about losing yourself in somebody. There is a song on there called Lose Myself and it's that manifestation of having that love that it just becomes all-encompassing and you go crazy in love, you know what I mean? Not to quote be herself, but just that madness and that chemistry and those explosions that go off when you've met that person.

14:43I think, yeah, some of it is manifestation and some of them are, you know, unfortunately relationships that didn't go too well that I wished had gone. So it's a collection really of those two things. How acutely aware are you, Callum, of the fact that doing the job you do and also being present enough in a relationship to allow it to grow is a kind of contradiction. It's so difficult to be an artist and to put the time in, the time that is needed to do it. And have you managed to square that circle to work out how that can work? I mean, it's the life conundrum, isn't it? It's so hard to... But you don't have a normal life.

15:41That's the difference. And this is it. Yeah. I mean, it's not normal in the slightest bit. I mean, you know, you'll know yourself. It's, you know, working in this industry doesn't feel real at all. You know, you're going from place to place. You're meeting all of these people, you know, love what you do, you know, and you're praised for it. You get to go to these mad experiences, you know, and you, you know, you get treated to a lot of beautiful things that you would maybe never have had the opportunity to, you know, And not only that, but you're also, when you talk about the actual job, you're going out and you're pouring your heart out and people take that body of work or music or whatever it is that you do and they consume it and then they have their own attachment to that.

16:27They have their own person that they're thinking of when they listen to that song or their own experiences that they've gone through that that song has helped or whatever it is. you know so it is mental and it isn't a real you know it's not a real life I always maintain that you know when I was working up at Hull and I was doing a nine-to-five job and getting the bus to work and stuff that's a real life you know so then when you add relationships into that and love into that it's even more difficult because you know love needs connection love needs time And, you know, it needs that human connection, that human touch, you know, closeness, you know, romance, intimacy.

17:08I think all those things that, you know, you put into the test tube and it overflows the Bunsen burner underneath it, you know, all that concoction of love and all that good stuff requires time. And that is something that I have fleeting amounts of. and so that for me has been the biggest difficulty in maintaining a relationship in this industry is is time you know and what I've what I've come to learn is that the you know life does not stop when I go on tour and I'm touring you know Australia and America and New Zealand and all these amazing places people carry on you know one of my biggest biggest regrets of my entire life is my two best friends, Jess and Greg, getting married to each other in 2018.

17:57And I was in America. I was supporting a group called the Pentatonix. And we were so deep in America that I couldn't get out and get back without disrupting the tour. And I watched from afar my two best mates getting married, all of our best mates there, my mum, my sister. and that was i deeply deeply regret just not going i'm gonna go i'm gonna make it work i need to be there for that because it's so so important it's the same thing with relationships you know i've been in relationships where you've missed things i've been in relationships where the distance becomes too much of a problem you know and it is in the wave of you being in love and you know it's it's hard it's hard i i try not to complain too much because i i always come back to what we talked about the very beginning with reflection i try not to complain too much because i have an amazing life and i've achieved so much that more than i ever dreamt i would so to complain feels uh it just feels wrong but you know problems are relative right yeah exactly exactly but are you i guess look you're 10 d 10 years deep into this journey three albums and i guess every artist at some point says okay i've worked like a machine to get to this point and now i need to recalibrate what it is that makes me happy yeah right because the adrenaline in the dopamine of being up on stage and having people adore you is incredible but it is also fleeting right it can't continue it's dangerous if you keep in like that's why people self-medicate to try and keep that going so then it's a case of you know and I've interviewed artists at all different stages of their career from just being signed to actually unsigned I think when I first interviewed Sam Fender he wasn't even signed so there does come that point where you kind of go while you're sitting in a big house and you've got all the accoutrements that comes with being successful as you do.

20:17And you go, well, I can't, none of this stuff is going to hug me tonight. Yeah. You're reading my mind, Nihal. It's something that I have been like recently, I would say I've turned a bit of a corner with it. I would say over the last few weeks, but just recently, just feeling very lost very lost in music very lost in in my personal life lost in love i just think you know like we said this this industry is is incredible and beautiful and magical but it's also really difficult and like you say no amount of spending money will ever replace being with people that you love you know if somebody said to me tomorrow you have to give up everything that you've got and you have to give up your career, but you'll have somebody there for life, I wouldn't hesitate.

21:12I would not hesitate. I would not miss my Ramoa cases. I would not miss having a flat in London. I just, to have somebody that loves you and to have somebody that can hold you when you're going through something and that grip and that hold just makes you feel so much more secure, so much more at peace knowing that you're facing your troubles in life with somebody and can also celebrate all of the amazing things and the highs and together, it just don't come close. And I think, you know, the feeling I've had recently, especially like in music, like music is changing all the time, the way that people consume music is changing.

21:55Like, you know, I was just talking to somebody about, I had a gardener round at my house the other day and we were talking about X Factor, was saying about how those were the days where your full family would get around the sofa, around the TV, and you'd all watch TV on a Saturday night. You would all come together and play games. You would all, you know, you would all listen to the top 40 in the car on the way to go and doing something. There was a lot more togetherness. And obviously, you know, our phones and our tablets and our technology is giving us independence, and that's really great. But I think we forget sometimes, and that can be really lonely.

22:31And I think from a songwriter perspective, from an artist perspective, releasing music now feels like the way that we release music and what metrics we use to see if it's done well or if people are listening to it is so vastly different from 10 years ago. I keep talking to my manager about what's the latest single, how's it doing? And he's like, well, we need the TikTok story. and to be honest Neil I don't even know what the TikTok story is like and I just get so frustrated because then it's like well then if we're releasing music for TikTok then we're kind of selling out a little bit like where is the you know that I'm really pleased that we me and my manager get on so well but you know sometimes with the label and not seeing eye to eye on things it can be so challenging and it can leave you in a place where you're like well all I've ever known is to do something I like, to write something that I believe is good enough, you know, to stand by, you know, live and die by the sword kind of thing.

23:35And you put it out there for people to consume. I don't want to be putting it out there and wondering how many TikTok creations there've been of it. But then, and that's what I'm saying, you get so lost in that, in the minutiae, you forget to look back and go, I'm actually doing a job I absolutely love, you know, and I'm in such a privileged position that I get to go to a studio and I've got the means to be able to get there and have time with people, you know, that, you know, have got their own lives and their own jobs and, you know, they're putting a roof over their head as well and they're giving their time to work with me.

24:05And so I think a little bit of that reflection has helped me turn a bit of a corner with it. But, yeah, and it's the same thing with love. It's the same thing of just not knowing, like, is it all this worth it? You know, like I sit, I've got a lovely TV and I've got a lovely sound system, great. but do I want to keep coming back to this by myself and you and there's no time to date and when you do you need time and then you're back in that like you know perpetual cycle of so I have been feeling really lost recently Nihal so thanks for ringing it up pal um but in a sense it's really real to talk about because I think what also is the people watching this you know might not be able to relate to necessarily the you know the the job that we do but definitely to the human emotion that we all feel regardless of your job and regardless of what you do you know where you're from you know where you are in the world i think it's it's you know being in love and heartbreak are two of the most relatable feelings on the planet aren't they so yeah i think i think being real talking about it like i said is is really helpful and you know i don't know i i have turned in a bit of a corner with it.

25:15I'm glad that I have because I do love what I do and I don't want to, I don't want to taint this job and what I do in the industry and TikTok is great. I'm not, I'm not slating TikTok in the slightest bit. I'm just saying that it's just, it's tough, you know, for when I released music 10 years ago, you're, you're checking the radio and now I'm checking, you know, TikTok creations. So it's just different.

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26:15Do you think, though, that I think Alex Warren has probably proved this with Ordinary, but I don't know how many songs like that come around in a decade, but. That it can land right like it can be beyond 15 seconds and a dance routine that goes viral. It can be more than that. It should be more than that. And in many ways, his the success of that song and he's not the only one. I mean, if you're looking at Benson Boone's and you're looking at Teddy Swims, etc there's a lot of artists who are making incredibly big songs like on your album is incredibly big ambitious songs about love and about yearning and about treasuring something so i wonder if that gives you some hope in the same way that you're saying you've turned a corner perhaps the listening public has as well a hundred percent a hundred percent and what i think is really important to to state on on those examples is that these boys have been working at this for a while what i think that's something that i was quite shocked at when i first kind of got into the music scene especially with rag and burn you know that he'd been working and working and working and then one of his songs was sung by a contestant on the x factor and it blew up for him so i think what i love in all of those examples is that behind all of the success there is somebody that has been working hard and been working on it for a while and i think it just goes to show that you know hard work does prevail and we're not you know i'd be stupid to say i'm not in this for having a having a song that does amazing things of course i am and i'm you know very grateful that I've had, you know, I've had three songs that have really sort of gone the distance.

28:04And I'm, I could die tomorrow and that'll be enough. One would have been enough. But I'm super grateful. And the only thing I can do is rather than staying lost in this, you know, things, things, different things have changed, is to look at the success I've had and go, it's happened before, you know, and keep working hard, keep being ambitious, keep setting an example for the people who are also necessarily might be feeling in the same way feeling like low feeling like the industry's not helping them along with their journey you know i i just recently i i'm i've ran a uh not like a competition but ran a ran a um a thing where i was asking people to submit or nominate the people that they wanted to see open for me on this tour because i'm so lucky and so honoured to get to do what I do, but I'm in such a privileged position where I can have somebody open for me and I can choose that person.

28:59And I thought what an amazing opportunity it would be to give people that opportunity on their doorsteps from the city that they're from, you know, a band or an artist that people locally champion, giving them that moment to shine because opening for me on my show might be the ladder that they need to get the engines fired up and for people to notice them and support them. So I think even just doing that has just made me feel so much better about the industry. We're all in this. There's enough music for everybody. It's not a race that we have to beat each other. It's just we're all artists out here trying to do what we love and trying to make the world a little bit better or distract people from what's going on in the world for three and a half minutes with something beautiful or upbeat or, you know, whatever it is.

29:53I think that's what we've got to remember is, you know, we're here to serve the public who, you know, on their commute to work and back, they need us. You know what I mean? They need us for their first dance. They need us for those dark times. They need us for the moments to celebrate with their friends and be in the bar and have a song that they absolutely love and it fills them with euphoric. That's what we're here. That's what we do. That's our job, it's our purpose, you know, so we just got to keep doing that. Is there any aspect of your openness in the past about your past that in retrospect you regret or you think maybe I overshared there because it's come to define too much of the conversations that I have in the public?

30:41It's difficult. I had a lot of issues growing up with my sexuality And I was not confident When I came out when I was young And when I say came out I just was different And that got challenged And when I'd said A question was asked Are you telling me you're gay? And I was like I don't know Maybe That whole friendship group Had sort of abandoned me So I kind of went back in the closet got a girlfriend stopped talking about it and then you know tried to avoid that conversation for as long as I possibly could even to up till the show you know people knew who were close to me but even on the show like Stephen Mulhern bless him did this segment with me on the extra was it Britain's Got More Talent and it was like oh guys this is Calum Scott this is Simon Cowell's Golden Buzzer right Calum I've got a surprise for you we're going to draw your perfect girlfriend so you're going to describe what she you know what you like and i'm gonna try and draw her and that was horrible because i was on the spot it was being filmed i wasn't confident enough to go oh can we just talk about this off camera so i just ran with it and pretended and that felt really bad i i hated the fact that i had to lie on such a public setting and i asked the producers i was like i'm really not comfortable It's really upset me I don't want to lie My current girlfriend Well, my girlfriend prior to going on the show I'd mentioned her name as well And it was just not nice And it was messy And I thought people are going to think I'm lying Who know me So we removed that option And then when I was signed Same thing People had started asking me about relationships And I went into the label in tears Just being like I just don't know if I'm confident enough To talk about my sexuality And by then I was, what, 20 27 28 and my dad still didn't know so you know i wanted to fly over and tell him in person i didn't want to you know have him find out from the press so that that was tough and and and talking about my sexuality and coming out you know publicly especially using a song that i'd written called no matter what which was my coming out story that felt good because it felt on my terms and And since I've talked about that, you know, that does get brought up a lot.

33:08And sometimes, you know, and I want to approach this conversation delicately, but sometimes, you know, I don't necessarily want to be considered a gay artist because I don't feel that me being gay represents me. I feel like I'm an artist and I like guys and I have curly hair and I love Marvel. but I just think it's a part of me rather than defining who I am and sometimes when that comes up that can be quite difficult and when I say that I have so much love for the LGBTQ plus community and you know I was just at pride awards and it's just so heartwarming to see so much love and from a community that you know you're you're sat in there and everybody in there shares the same feeling of like you know at some point they've you know they've they've they've been judged or they've been criticized or they've been bullied or they've been harassed or or worse you know for just being who they are for just loving who they love so i'm not that's not a criticism on the industry it's not a criticism on media it's just i think that's just a for me a bit of a self-identifier you know because i just feel like i've got so much more to talk about but having said that the amount of people that i've helped by talking about it is just unparalleled and i would never change it you know what i mean so it's difficult you know i'm proud of where i am i'm proud of being part of the community so i wouldn't necessarily say i regret it but you know there's there's challenges i think it's it's fascinating because we often talk about the masks that we wear and code switching it's fascinating to hear you talk about as a man approaching his late 20s then having a girlfriend when in your head you're like I'm never going to commit to this person and in fact everything that I'm doing here is an act everything now as an Asian man I have to walk into certain areas and change who I am to fit in etc I've had to do that through my life but But nothing, nothing is fundamental as having to pretend that I'm a different sexuality, which is so fundamental to who we are, right?

35:32Who we're attracted to, who we choose to love. Yeah. I cannot imagine the energy that takes and also the scars that potentially leaves to you and to her. Yeah, it was difficult. quote you know um i just felt like a fraud all the time and i felt like i was uh disrespecting her i was i felt like i was just trying to i just felt like i was leading her on down this false relationship where she'd started building you know i mean we were young but she'd you know she was equally building her life with me and what she wanted with me and i just couldn't I couldn't do that to her And when it was mentioned On the show I was like That's just gonna If anything I've done Hasn't been bad enough For me to publicly humiliate her Like that by saying her name And I didn't say her name To drop her in it I was just I panicked And I was like I don't want to tell people That I'm gay On national television You know When I've only kind of just got to grips with it myself and and then dropping my you know ex-girlfriend's name in there i just thought it just would have been so selfish of me and that's why you know i i whispered it into steven's ear and then he went to the camera and he was like oh and said her name again and i was like i just went to the producer i was like i'm just so uncomfortable and it wasn't anything steven had done steven didn't know bless him he would have approached that completely differently had he done but it was it would it would have been so selfish of me um and i'm so glad that i had the the bravery to at least go in and say look i really am not happy with that you know because you're talking you're going in as a contestant they're tv execs do you know i mean so in my mind i was thinking i'm gonna have no what say do i have you know i'm just a lad from hall who am i to stand up to itv studios or whoever it is and go i don't think you should put that out do you know and i genuinely felt that was going to happen they very gracefully was like yeah absolutely completely understand we're not here to upset anyone and they removed that segment but pretending has been uh coming out has been so liberating from all that pretending over all those years i mean the amount of conversations i got so good at avoiding answering a question that when the label came to do media training with me the lady was like I think you've got this.

38:09Answering a difficult question, I find quite easy in the sense of... You've been doing it your whole life. Well, 100%. I'm basically a bloody politician. Answer the question without answering the question. And for me, somebody talking to me about a girlfriend, I could easily get around that. It felt like after years and years of practice, without the actual truth coming out. And any time it did, it just made me feel so... disgusted in myself i felt sick i felt ashamed i felt humiliated and i just look back and i just go if i could go back in time and do anything it would be to tell younger callum stop caring so much about what other people think of you because it is going to ruin your teens it's going to ruin your 20s and you're going to come to a point where the penny drops and you just go wow if somebody's got a problem with me that is their problem and since I've felt like that life for me has just been so much easier than to be so I am still affected by what people say but not when it comes to not when it comes to that because I tortured myself for long enough and you know I'm I'm glad that I don't have to walk around and pretend anymore you know I can just be myself you know and I just feel I just feel good in knowing that if somebody came up to me and said have you got a girlfriend i'd say oh no i'm gay and that wouldn't i wouldn't feel anything about it and that's such a liberating feeling you know it's interesting that when you talked about 14 year old you just saying look i'm not sure i like girls and then the ramifications of that in terms of your then friend group abandoning you i wonder how good you are now at seeing authenticity in people seeing whether they have your best interests at heart because the industry that you're in you can make a lot of friends you know and then suddenly i remember someone telling me about a very famous former radio one dj and the difference in his birthday parties from one year to another one year he was radio one dj all these famous people turned up it was all super showbiz callum he then left radio one and his birthday the following year no one was there oh i just can't stand that stuff anyhow and i'm probably in the wrong industry to have that kind of a reaction to it but i just can't stand it we're all human beings we're all emotional some more emotional than others but we all just want connection we all just want to hang around with people that enjoy our company and you know i've been in the industry for 10 years and you know yourself you know when you're coming across somebody who's disingenuous or who's not being themselves i was putting on a bit of a front and i don't really have any time for that whatsoever not because not because i in a nasty way it's just because i want to be surrounded by positive people and people who bring something to me and i know that we all have our down days so i never judge straight off the bat but you know when you've had somebody who like you know you come into contact with one two three times and they're exactly the same i just go i haven't got the time of day to sit and worry about what you might think of me or whether you know whether you're going to be saying something behind my back i just think like at the end of the day life's too short and my heart bleeds for that radio one dj because if it was anything like me you'd think these are all my friends you know these are people who supported me they've been on my show they've you know we've made great connections we've been out for dinner for them to just not turn up because you're not in the job that you were in it's just it's just not on it's just not on in the slightest bit but don't you think Callum that when you get into it you have to work out as I did pretty quickly and by the way I was a Radio 1 DJ but that isn't about me because I I never because I never assumed anyone that was famous or had been on my show, I never assumed that that makes us friends.

42:20Like I just thought, okay, I've got my friends. Like I know the people that I know and I knew them before all of this. So it's kind of real. And I understand and I understood that that was kind of a game, right? It was a game. And the people that I kind of felt sorry for were the ones who didn't see it as a game they thought it was real well i think i i feel like i fit a little bit in that in that pocket because even to this day if i because because so i understand what you're saying and to some extent i do see it as a game but i get a little bit cynical of myself about that and i think if i think about it too much like that it's going to ruin my experience of it because i don't want to walk into the brits and go i've already got my guard up and you know anybody I'm going to meet is going to be for PR.