EP43: No Trees No Seas

31:58Carl Rowlandson:Exactly that yeah and it's amazing that we have those conversations and people don't realize that there would have been this woodland cover that would have been hot you know really high not that long ago and would have stretched right down to the coastline and we kind of completely pinched back so yeah you mentioned about the challenges it's about telling that story about how we need those how we are a woodland county and how we are a forested island and bringing that back into

32:22Sam Manning:people's kind of consciousness Derek Gale has this great book called Hump for the Shadow Wolf where he talks about how culturally we've made we've ostracized wolves and we've made them see them this kind of dangerous negative thing but that only really started happening like after the 11th century and I've got a feeling that we've done the same with trees you know people think they love trees but actually they don't want them blocking their house or they don't want them in the landscape or you know there's this there is a stigma against them that's almost more insidious than the anti-wolf thing because we don't even see it i heard you say earlier tree derangement yeah i haven't quite landed on that term yet but i think but i think like it's like you say the the shifting baseline syndrome it's so true it's almost a syndrome it's like it's a kind of silent psychology and people might say oh no british people love trees well why are we so deforested and when you ask that question there's almost no answer for it and i think that for me is the most interesting kind of journalism it's like tacit silent elephants in the room you know why are we not talking about this as a nation like why is that something that's pushed under the carpet why is there no answer for that that's what is so exciting about this campaign for me it's kind of digging down into that that question what we love doing in the uk is cutting the trees down

33:30Carl Rowlandson:putting houses on it and then naming that housing estate after the trees that were once there Or willow close. Yeah, yeah. Ash tree close. Yeah, yeah.

33:38Sam Manning:Or that with no trees there anymore. And we're building 10 % of our new houses in floodplains that are flooding because there's no trees. You couldn't write it. Yeah. At a time when we need nature as a defence, not to strip it in, you know, in anticipation of actually everything that's about to come. I mean, we were up against a year this year with El Nino or El Nino? El Nino. El Nino, which is, you know, nine to 12 months of weather extremes across the globe. So as far as nature-based solutions go, we need to be doubling down on initiatives like this and protecting these wild places.

34:17Carl Rowlandson:You can see it here when it's raining. And especially this winter, we've had one of the wettest winters ever. You can just see all of that soil piling off horrible fields and straight into the river. and the river turns brown when it's been raining like deep brown and if we can just do what you were talking about what ian hendy was saying putting that riparian buff those woodland buffers on the fields it's going to put that complexity in the soil and help keep that keep it in place because you drive up there when it's raining and it's just piling down off the fields smothering

34:48Sam Manning:the seagrass the analogy we've started using is we've ripped the roof off our house that's what the forest and the upper catchment are and now there's a storm coming and if we don't get that roof back on in winter we're going to be wet way too wet and in summer we're going to be way too hot and that it's as simple as that they just stabilize the environment yeah we used to have a thatched roof and now we've got a slate roof and everything's just piling off it kind of thing yeah we've lost that complexity yeah mine's a spesto cement roof so it's um i'm worse off than all you um we've spoke a few about a bit about the stats and the numbers and you know what the cornwall eight percent forest coverage in cornwall where does plant one and the no trees no seeds initiative want to get to what's the three-year plan what's um what does coverage look like uh best case

35:34Carl Rowlandson:scenario so we've got a we've got a mission and vision to reforest and reconnect that's kind of the the goal of plant one and we've set ourselves a 3 000 hectare target over the next 20 years and we want to use the next five years to look at high priority areas these key areas that that sam is identified within the flowscape where if we reforest these these are going to have a multitude of benefits to not only the land the riparian but the marine ecosystems as well so over the next five years we're now going to target those areas look at the mapping and look at the research and say right where can we approach these landowners to get these trees in that are going to support all of the other restoration efforts that are going on i think you touched upon it before there's often kind of a bit of siloed approach to restoration in this country but what we want to do is speak to the seagrass people, speak to the kelp, the people that are doing the mill bed restoration and say, okay, so where's the problematic areas that's causing your desertification of your restoration?

36:32Carl Rowlandson:We want to go in, reforest those areas so that the work you do is going to be supported by the forest. So yeah, the next couple of years, we want to start getting 100, 200 hectares of woodland in those high priority areas. And for us, we're focusing as a case study on the fall and the Helford flowscapes. so yeah come along and plant some more trees larry well we did didn't we though wasn't so

36:55Sam Manning:much planting but actually um maintaining maintaining and news to me when i rocked up we wouldn't be planting but weeding trees which is yeah very important so it's um yeah we had a great team day there last week uh and that's the that's the key though is is is not just sticking

37:13Carl Rowlandson:the trees in the ground and walking away you've got to do that long it's not that it's not a pat

37:16Sam Manning:on the back it's not great cool yeah and i've read something or heard something you said earlier it's plant one we create woodland rather than plant trees yeah and very subtle but a big difference right yeah i mean you're creating something that will actually you for sure why don't you tell me

37:32Carl Rowlandson:what your words mean but yeah for us it's it's putting the trees in the ground is step one the approach that we take is is managing the land and then that could mean managing the herbivores but encouraging that natural regeneration to come in as well. But it's the long-term piece. So up at that site on Bodman, Kabila, we've got a 15-year agreement with the landowners. So we're going to be there year after year to ensure we have that longevity, maintenance and management. And that's the kind of key piece. That's the bit where we can step away and say, right, there's a young woodland burgeoning there.

38:03Carl Rowlandson:But yeah, that's a cool site. That's like right in the middle of Bodman. It goes back to what Sam's saying, the tree planting that we're going to do there, woodland creation work we're going to do there has a direct impact on the foy flow scape. You know, it's going to impact all of that ecosystem.

38:18Sam Manning:One of the things I've come to really pick from this is, if I focus back on Cornwall again, which is so easily done, everybody gravitates to the coast. You think Cornwall, you think coast. You think the beaches, you think the inlets, you think the cliffs. I spend, maybe I'm generalising here, but I spend very little time in the interior of Cornwall. um in fact kabila is a place i spent more time in the interior a it's beautiful but it has the river i don't feel too dry when i'm up there um the is it the bedalda bedalda yeah it's uh it's magical there is you know merlin who uh looks after the land up there steward steward of the of the forest speaks about it very romantically it's the river the forest and the river is is merlin in a way it's uh it's very spiritual there's a book on the table here our oak and bones it's an amazing story can i jump on to the point about like creating woodlands just because i think yes please because you know the people would assume two things one that this is again about just planting trees but it's not there's this crazy stat that i keep coming back to they do this thing called the state of nature report every five years where they just check the state of nature the last one they did was 2019 i think and in there there was this crazy stat that that said between 1840 and 1880 so that's like the height of the industrial revolution when we were really kicking off with like deforestation we drained an area the size of dartmoor every single year in the uk drained the soil and then we did the same thing again in the 70s so this isn't just about planting trees this is about like recreating woodland that's wet so so rainforests are wet you shouldn't really be able to move easily through them there should be so much water and there should be full of necromast like huge amounts of like deadwood because if you go through a forest in canada you can't move through it there's so much old growth dead wood and trees and stuff and that is what a healthy woodland looks like and it's it's able to hold water so actually this is not just about planting trees it's about creating what we call biogenic forests which are able to like reabsorb those and be really healthy and you know that's all part of part of the story really

40:18Carl Rowlandson:as well isn't it yeah that kind of when you explain it to me like what would a river be if we'd not messed with it it would have a woodland that run alongside it that woodland would have decayed died grown up again trees would have fallen into it it would have slowed the flow of the water down there would have been beavers in there and you start kind of understanding what a riverscape actually is and the woodland and the river are completely intertwined yeah

40:41Sam Manning:we've been really inspired by a movement in the pacific northwest called stage zero restoration where it's like it is seeing that all of our watercourses are really artificial and anthropogenic and that we've drained the land and actually what they're doing there is just restarting rivers and it's remarkable what happens when you do that because you just get this complete you know restarting of the system and it slows the water cools it makes it better quality and forests that's what forests do and also other species like beavers and and deadwoods and stuff i went to a place in vancouver island called lost shoe creek and from the beach to the headwaters i just could not see the river there was just so much deadwood in there and matsanaga in his book he says that if you've got a healthy old growth forest like that a square meter of that river should have 10 grams of invertebrates falling into it every day so bugs for fish and you look at our rivers i mean on the main river like this you wouldn't have it but in some of the side tributaries there's just no wood half of our woods in the uk have no deadwood in like when i was in when i was in canada as well we'd be out in the boat on a place like this and we'd be hitting logs you know every every minute with the outboard would be getting slammed but i mean that never happens yeah slow in the flow with the

41:45Carl Rowlandson:deadwood that's going into it yeah yeah yeah absolutely fascinating and like so in that lost Shoe Creek that just went straight into from from the forest to the river in straight into seagrass

41:55Sam Manning:yeah it wasn't like an expanse of mud the division between the forest and the river is not there it just flows in and then the division between the sea and the forest is not there because you go straight out into seagrass and kelp and you can kayak over it for you know kilometers and then that's that is one continuous fish habitat which is what Ian Ian Hendy talks about is that you have like the salmon which are a woodland animal and when they come out as juveniles they spend time in that kelp and that grass, seagrass. And the kelp protects the seagrass from wave energy, so you need to have it all together.

42:25Sam Manning:And then they will go, okay, this year's good. And then they'll go out into the ocean and they'll come back. But a poor fish in this river has got no habitat, spawning habitat. The water's way too fast. It's too warm. It's too full of pollutants. They then come out to where their nursery should be and they're not there. So then they go straight out to sea into a warming, acidifying ocean. So at every stage, they're being set up for failure.

42:45Carl Rowlandson:Yeah, yeah. They're getting predated on by seagulls. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The migrationary journey of a salmon and when you kind of described the role that that plays within our woodlands, that was the kind of, when I really fell in love with the kind of connections with the forest and ocean because it's fascinating. They're, as you say, woodland creatures. They forage in a deep marine environment. They get to our freshwater. They stop eating. So they're just taking all of those marine nutrients into our headwaters, swimming up to the woodlands where they spawn and die en masse and then spread across the woodland floor.

43:18Carl Rowlandson:And those marine nutrients go back into the soil. I just think that when we were up at Cabilla, that Bedelda would have been teeming with salmon. And if you were a woodland rainforest tribe, hill tribe, it's amazing once a year the the ocean would deposit itself right in the middle of bogman and just be scattered with salmon all over the floor it's i think that's just so i think it was lisa

43:41Sam Manning:was telling me about she's she's found like sort of records of people complaining about having too much salmon to eat because they used to be paid in salmon so they'd be like can we please have something other than salmon you know this is like it was a huge part of the culture um but yeah when i was in van island as well i spent a lot of time with conservationists who take a lot of their knowledge from the natal youth who are the first nations there and they literally call themselves the salmon cedar people they completely base their identity around the salmon and around the cedar tree and in our growth forest there and they only have 10 left of that so actually they're in a similar situation to us in terms of that decline now 25 of the nutrient in that tree if you measure it will be from the ocean so there's this in the biggest influx of nutrients in between any biome in the world happening there that would have been happening here and it's gone that link is super important there's a there's a guy called ted green he's like sort of a legend in the tree world and he does a lot of work on chronic and acute oak decline which is a disease we actually don't know they either slowly start to die or they completely die very quickly and nobody really knows why that's happening but his theory is it's it's malnutrition it's soil malnutrition and that actually these these links that we would have had at a system scale mean that our soils are becoming so degraded of micronutrients that the trees themselves are starting to die that's one of the theories and he's proved that actually if you kind of make this iron fulvic acid rich tea which is what's which is what matsanaga is saying forests are doing to the ocean you instantly see the tree come back to life and i think there is something to that we talk about shifting mindsets and the power of storytelling no trees no seas is a beautiful film could have been much longer arguably it's had a fantastic reception but what where where does storytelling play a role here and not just telling the stories that we have right here on the river or the work you're trying to do but the stories of others and the wisdom the indigenous cultures the the the universal nature of no trees no seas i like i'll talk about like sam crosby's amazing work but my view on this is satish kumar who's an amazing writer really inspired me he has this saying that if you want to change the world you have to change the story and i think one of these huge problems that we've had in the environment movement is we've sterilized it of story we focused on messages often quite negative messages and those are just almost quite linear you know barrages and it just doesn't connect with people a story has an arc it's a restoration arc you know this is what we used to have this is where we are now this is where we could be and I think bringing that now into the environment movement is super important and finding the people and organizations that can do that's really important but I don't know if you want to talk about Sam yeah absolutely I mean

46:08Carl Rowlandson:it goes back to the kind of the three pillars of the the campaign that me and Sam created when we when we start no trees no seas and that's storytelling science and impact and I feel science and impact on its own you need the storytelling because that brings the community behind you we need to start telling these positive stories and also reminding ourselves who we are and where we've come from and connecting back to the past so without that mythology and well those new stories we don't get the culture and we need that cultural shift to become that mass tree planting kind of culture once more uh you know i love that quote um to catch a fish you got to plant a tree and we need that kind of storytelling happening here again so so the campaign we felt early on needed that storytelling element we brought on a really fantastic mythologist called sam cosby and that's the kind of the words in the film he's the one that crafted that that sits alongside the animation and one of the beautiful things he says is when myth and science agree that's wisdom and i just think that's brilliant and to look back in the past and be guided by the past and shaped by the science is exactly what we're trying to achieve here and i always think you know sam talks about this is always fascinating whenever you look through mythology salmon is always featured you know people knew that salmon was this special amazing creature because it migrated through all of those different habitats no other creature did that so it's amazing to look back and see those references of salmon within in the mythology but for us we want to connect to the communities and we want to tell those stories and we want to bring people along and change that change that shift and start telling a positive story because as chris haynes says he's one of one of the ambassadors you know we can do this we've just got to recognize and remember that we're the team we are the we are the kind of people that can make

47:54Sam Manning:this happen yeah i think there's something really important there about we've we've got a society now that's obsessed with certainty and scientific certainty and what that tends to do is it freezes you in stasis until you've got the answer which is not coming often and it also disempowers people that kind of certainty when you're in a crisis you need to just trust intuition and intuition is really empowering to movements and people and that's what i find in storytelling is it just gives you it empowers you to be like you know what's right you know that bringing more trees back regaining forests reconnect of nature is right you don't need science to tell you that it's not it's a really long no yeah and just just trust your gut the amount of people in in the book right the process of writing the book i speak to a lot of people who are who are maybe seen as mavericks in the environment sector because they are pro-planting trees, bringing back beavers, doing rewilding.

48:41Sam Manning:They're systems thinkers. And they're often vilified by the expertise section. How so? In the sense that this is going to get really technical now. I think what I think is happening right now is we're moving from the old school conservation movement, which is about protecting a kind of degraded state and stopping it getting any worse, which I think has failed. which was also you know these laws and were you know protection legislation but these these were things that were drawn up in the 60s and 70s right that actually for in many instances haven't changed for decades and and super important you know those have protected species from being lost almost certainly would have but what they that but they're built inside a framework of siloing of stasis of misalignment with nature which i think the whole of society has got right now and i think we're moving from this preservation conservation world through to restoration and that is about radical systems change land use change more trees more forests more beavers rewilding focus on water holistic break down all the boundaries all of that stuff all the stuff that you see in the pacific northwest and i think hopefully i'm going to find in japan as well and and although both are necessary because you need to have a systems change to you know to restore the environment but also protecting those key species there is this tension there still at the moment and that's what i'm most interested in exploring the book but you tend to get sort of people that are in the old school conservation almost kind of feel very cautious about this new restoration movement and those that are advocating for it and doing but they're often doing the really cool stuff the stage zero the rewilding the tree planting and that we are going to have to rectify those two things but all of the people that i talk to in that restoration space they describe uncannily even though none of them know each other this idea of a gut feeling it's an intuition that actually we know what's healthy you know in the same way that we know that you know fruit and being outside of being in the sea is healthy we don't need science to tell us that but we're stuck in this world where we need to have that certainty or be told that that's what's good for us and i think there's something really powerful there yeah we need to push back past that

50:43Carl Rowlandson:managing the decline definitely and i think that's where kind of story comes in yeah stories of hope and change and then examples of that done right and also if bringing back reverence for nature as well telling those kind of you know you're not going to cut a tree down if you think there's a powerful witch that lives in there and they're going to take you down to the underlands or if your ancestors are in it yeah yeah or if your ancestors are in them yeah exactly so i used to uh i'm just thinking of tree beard now yeah yeah but why is tree beard but elders are uh like in cornish folklore one of the most powerful trees if you cut down an elder you're kind of in deep shit because the woods witch is going to come and drag you down to the hell there and like as a tree surgeon i'd be climbing a tree and there'd be like an elder because they're kind of shrub species growing next to the tree that we're working on and i'll see like the ground worker go to like cut it down i'll be like oh you don't want to cut that down you're going to piss off the woods which if you do that and he sees like sort of big tree surgeon guy go to get his chainsaw and then he'll sort of back away a little bit and you'll be like see you're a little bit scared of trees it's all right bit of reverence and a bit of fear someone told me

51:47Sam Manning:someone told me that in ireland there's a kind of um there's a specific reverence for hawthorne or a special reference for Hawthorne and you get these groves of Hawthorne in the landscape and there's a there's there's a folklore about not cutting them down and when they have ignored that and gone to dig it up they found their anthrax pits so they're where sort of like very very like you know a thousand two thousand years ago they were burying animals with anthrax and they were putting the Hawthorne on there to stop people digging them up again and they used myth to stop people digging them up yeah because I think Sam Crosby says um eventually myth becomes truth in the end yeah because it has this it has this way of bypassing our brains and and just making us have reverence reverence is the word yeah it creates reverence in us in a way that actually a sort of linear kind of literal warning would not i think yeah yeah exactly i mean yeah 100 %

52:37Carl Rowlandson:and you it's fascinating that they embedded the story as a warning into the into that into that hawthorn but yeah you're not you're not going to pollute the the hellford if you believe it's a

52:48Sam Manning:goddess if you actually believe it's a goddess or if you see that you're tangibly linked to it yeah that's the problem we don't realize that actually when we're polluting that water it's

52:56Carl Rowlandson:polluting us yeah yeah yeah yeah that severance is a problem yeah bring back reverence yeah

53:01Sam Manning:severance yeah yeah pre-reverence yeah yeah full of sayings okay i can't keep up guys i'm trying i'm trying the last like i said the last year 18 months has been a roller coaster it's been everything's happened in quick time you guys are relentless this is really admirable the what have your biggest wins been like where have you if you had a chance to sit back and go you know what like this we're actually really making some change here we're connecting people and projects we're joining the dots together between land and sea yeah what what have your biggest biggest takeaways

53:35Carl Rowlandson:so far been yeah i mean it's just seeing so we we crafted this film together and you know it's fantastic having the kind of support that you guys have brought along to that and for me it's just watching the reaction of of of delivering that story to people and when we do the q and a's afterwards people are so engaged with it and it is it is that kind of people just kind of get it you know it's not like well this doesn't make any sense or you know please deeply explain the science behind this people intrinsically get that connection is there and it's just fantastic putting that out and telling that story and feeling the thirst that people are craving this story.

54:14Sam Manning:I've been privy to a couple of standing ovations. I have, yeah. Eden Project got one. That's not a given.

54:21Carl Rowlandson:The film is beautifully made and the filmmakers James and Ross from Lightbox, they did a 100 % shout out to those guys because they put it on the line, did a lot of the work for free so yeah, 100 % shout out for them. But just seeing the response that it's getting, you know, it's a good story and it's a good news story.

54:41Sam Manning:Yeah, I'd agree. I think because we're in this movement, like I say, from this conservation to this restoration, what's going to try and bridge that is stories. And I think people are desperate for the language, for the story to help them transist. And that's, I think, when it's like Carl says, when you see it in people's eyes, when you tell this story, they can relate it to so many things in their lives. because ultimately it's a story about breaking down silo and it's about reconnection with nature and finding agency and intuition that's what really the story is and people can relate that to anything that like modern society has taken away from them and yeah i've had people we've had people come up to us and they just say it's this so clear this is what i've been looking for in the same way that this is what we were looking for you know this we found this story as much as anybody else was looking for it now and it's emotional it's emotional to see people find that but i think also for me like the biggest there is the obvious thing to say that because that's because this story has come at the right time we are seeing policy change now we are seeing people in in the right places in government start to go yes i see how we can start to move this into policy um it's definitely changing the conversation in the conservation sector which is the positive i would have liked to have seen but i think for me like the biggest win is just the community it's building i thought i think the only way we shift the dial on this is we rebuild community and meeting carl meeting all the people that has worked on this like the hundreds of hours that people have put into this for free you know just purely around the passion of it because they know they feel that it's something that's important has been like it's been the biggest pleasure of

56:05Carl Rowlandson:my life i think yeah it's truly a collaborative process and and you know all we wanted to do me and sam was put a flag in the sand and let people know what they're doing and open that door and people have come along and helping to roll it forward and and to take it on next and i think the the positive thing here is we've done this before we were down to two percent woodland cover at the turn of the 1900s at the back of the first world war we managed to get woodland cover up to eight percent so we increased it by six percent a lot of that was forestry but we can replant again on that kind of scale and we can do it quicker we've got the story we know how to to successfully reforest this land so i think in the next kind of generation we are going to see cornwall become a reforested nation again we we can definitely make that happen i think

56:53Sam Manning:Cornwall and beyond there's an amazing writer called Lou Asprey who lives in Cornwall and she's got this idea of proliferation events so you have moments where systems are really really unhealthy and a willow for example when it's unhealthy will just expand seed into the landscape and that effectively would look like a mass reforestation event and I think that's what we need but we're not going to do that through a petition or through a project, that needs to be something that grows in people as a mass movement that they get up every morning and they're like i can't be happy until i see this reforestation thing happen and that's culture change that's what i think we need to see there's a real systems culture shift people need to fall in love with trees again i think yeah

57:35Carl Rowlandson:yeah yeah it's amazing when i speak to people and they they come up to me a couple of weeks late and they go so i drove past this kind of field and i was like that could have had trees and that should have trees you know people start seeing the landscape in a different kind of frame And I think that's what we need. And we're not here to completely reforest the landscape. We just want to work in those areas that are going to have the maximum impact, retain our farming landscape, thicken out the hedgerows, put in those high-priority woodlands.

58:00Sam Manning:And that's what we did with you last Friday. We weren't planting across the entire field there. It was strategic. You were trees around, supporting trees around other types of trees. Leaving grazing areas. Local trees, native trees, of course. Yeah, yeah. I remember leaving, I think we left a big old patch in the middle for the beast of Bombin Moore to come and collect its deer. Yeah, indeed. That's a different story. That's a different story altogether. We've had a lot of great conversations with landowners and farmers through this. And it would be nice eventually to talk to fishermen because this is ultimately a story about food security.

58:30Sam Manning:Yeah. From both at Land and Sea. And I think the best conversations of when we've been able to meet in the middle and say, look, we're not talking about solid forest here all the time. We're actually talking about, like you say, individual trees and fields within which you can still farm, but actually also protects farming from climate change and makes that a healthier, less input, more resilient business. But equally, you know, one of the big problems we have is there's actually too many trees in a lot of these woodlands. They've become moribund. And actually, a healthy landscape is one that is blended.

58:58Sam Manning:So you have more trees outside woods, less trees inside woods. It's hard to see the edges of things. Edges are not good in nature, but also they're constantly changing and shifting and being dynamic. and you've got animals going through them. And that's what our landscape would have looked like in the Celtic period. You would have had farmed animals entering woodlands, going out into open bits. It would have been so dynamic in the same way that our bodies are dynamic. And I guess that's the coming back to this flowscape thing is what we're trying to show, that by siloing off the landscape and having solid woods and open habitats, it's the cusp of all of the problems we have environmentally.

59:29Carl Rowlandson:Yeah, I think agroforestry is going to be a real kind of silver bullet to a lot of this. So putting trees into a farming landscape where we can have those grazed areas within that kind of woodland mosaic i think is going to

59:41Sam Manning:really help i might show my age here but i've some reason i've got images of animals of farthing wood

59:48Carl Rowlandson:you remember that tv show is that the with the raccoons no that's another one though

59:55Sam Manning:and cyril sneer has uh still needs to pay for pay for the rickets um anyway listen we've got a couple minutes left and there's actually a couple of things that would be good for you both to plug a your book sam that's incredibly exciting that you're writing when do we expect to get a copy of the uh transcript so this year is about the traveling the the journalism part um next year is going to be about writing it and i'm hoping it will be out sort of neck back end of next year which should be really exciting yeah amazing yeah i also need to give a shout out to the woodland trust because so much of the research they've done has pushed this stuff forward you know amazing organization and yeah really central to this yeah and carl uh crowdfunder yeah so i guess

1:00:41Carl Rowlandson:the two kind of things i want to shout about is the yeah the crowdfunder and uh supporting plant one so we we've launched crowdfunders sit alongside the film screenings that we're doing which is all about bringing the resources in so we can create some of those fish forests that we talked about we need to get a woodland creation officer in post and that's exactly where that finance goes so we can go out and be proactive look for those high priority areas and create some of those fish forests that we talked about so that's just come on we just launched that now um it's called no trees no seas fish forest um and then we've got the screenings that we're doing with you guys and some other venues across the uk so yes stoked to to to go along those and get people to to come and

1:01:22Sam Manning:see the film so yes screening the first one is this friday the fifth so this that may have come and gone by the time this airs. Otherwise, the 11th and the 12th across various other participating schools. So, yeah, should be great, really. It's a very, very stirring film. The illustration work, the talking heads in it, the Chris Hines, the ocean, the land. It's incredibly inspiring. You've done a tremendous job in turning that around so quickly.

1:01:54Carl Rowlandson:But, yeah, I mean, it's a collaborative effort. You know, we need the kind of support from organisations like any. So big thanks, Larry. Yeah, really, really appreciate you, mate.

1:02:02Sam Manning:Well, great. Listen, I absolutely love spending time with you both. I've loved watching this thing grow from seedling to what, you know, this... Mighty oak. Mighty oak. And thank you. Thanks for, you know, everything you've shared. I appreciate it. Cheers, everyone. Cheers, guys. Well, I hope you enjoyed that one. What Carl and Sam have laid out isn't just a conservation argument. It's a reorientation. A reminder that nature doesn't recognise the borders we draw on maps, the river doesn't know where the forest ends and the sea begins, and neither should we. No Trees, No Seas is a campaign rooted in science, but it speaks to something older than science, the understanding that everything is connected, that what we do on land arrives at the ocean, and that protecting one means protecting the other.

1:02:51Sam Manning:If this conversation stirs something in you, I'd ask you to sit with that, to share it, talk about it. And if you want to go further still, Get involved with No Trees No Seas and the campaign with Plant One. Links are in the show notes along with more of the No Trees No Seas campaign and the science of the flowscape. Thank you to Carl and Sam for their time, their clarity and their commitment. If you want to really see how passionate these guys are and how they talk and how they work, tune into the video version of the show over on the Finisterre YouTube channel. Thanks to Gareth and the team over at Chatterbox Audio for stitching the show together.

1:03:24Sam Manning:Sound design by CJ Mirror. and thank you for listening to Hello High Water. Until next time, the work continues on land and at sea.