Why NM Meta child safety verdict could be 'first crack in the dam'

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0:19Raúl Torrez:WBUR Podcasts. Boston.

0:23Jake Bittle:It's the first but not the last time that I think juries across this country are going to demand real accountability from Meta and social media companies writ large. How New Mexico took Meta to court over claims of child exploitation on Facebook and Instagram and won.

0:49Jake Bittle:it's wednesday march 25th and this is here and now anytime from npr and wbur i'm chris bentley

0:58Jake Bittle:today on the show extraordinary events in energy and it's not just the war in iran The Trump administration is paying a billion-dollar subsidy to a French company to not build wind turbines in the U.S. Also, government payouts notwithstanding, global oil and gas supplies are strained by the war, which has exposed just how vulnerable we are to shocks in the price of fossil fuels.

1:27Raúl Torrez:I feel like we've gone so far down a bad road, and Iran has really demonstrated that it can effectively close the Strait of Hormuz, that we really don't have a way to go back. That's what really scares me.

1:41Jake Bittle:That story coming up in about 10 minutes. But first, it's a big day for social media companies, though from their perspective, not a good one. In Los Angeles, a jury found Meta and YouTube owned by Google were to blame for the depression and anxiety of a woman who compulsively used social media as a small child. That verdict comes a day after a New Mexico jury found Meta, the parent company of Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp, knows all about the child exploitation that goes on on its social media platforms, but doesn't do enough to stop it, prioritizing profits over kids' mental health. Meta has been in order to pay$375 million in damages.

2:24Jake Bittle:The company said it will appeal. New Mexico's Attorney General, Raul Torres, brought his suit against Meta in civil court, and he spoke with Scott Tong about it earlier today, before the verdict in the LA trial came down. Well, Meta's known for years that this is a dangerous product, an addictive product, and a product that actually facilitates predatory behavior on the platform. They've known that because of their own internal documents, Safety experts have been raising red flags and recommending specific changes. But again and again, executives, including Mr. Zuckerberg, have chosen and prioritized profits over safety.

3:04Jake Bittle:And because of that, the jury in New Mexico found them liable, found that their actions were willful and rendered a$375 million judgment in our favor. And it's the first but not the last time that I think juries across this country are going going to demand real accountability from meta and social media companies writ large. And for parents who are listening, parents of teens who are using these apps more broadly, what should they know about the dangers facing underage users today? Well, first, they need to understand that the business model that drives this company is one that's really centered on engagement.

3:45Jake Bittle:And it's engagement at all costs. They want to keep kids connected to the platform. They should also understand that the same things that connect people with their likes and interests also connect predators on the platform with kids that are on the platform. And so both of those things together should give parents real concern about having kids accessing these platforms in ways that, frankly, at this point are not safe. And they should also understand that the company hasn't been honest about the dangers that they know exist in these spaces. And part of your case was a state undercover operation that created a fake social media profile of a 13-year-old girl.

4:29Jake Bittle:What did that sting operation reveal? Well, what we were trying to do through the establishment of an undercover account was to recreate the experience of a young girl on the platform. We wanted to see for ourselves what the response would be. And frankly, it was shocking. They were immediately inundated with solicitations for sex, requests for graphic material, and an explosive growth in the following of predominantly men from all over the world. And what's even more shocking is that in response to that growth on that particular account, rather than raising a red flag, the company sent information to the account about how they could grow their user base and how they could monetize that following.

5:12Jake Bittle:That's a clear example of what's wrong at the core of this company. They have continued to prioritize engagement over safety, and we found that very clearly through our undercover investigation. Mm-hmm. Nationally, what do you hope comes of all this? Well, I think this is the first crack in the dam. You know, Meta and other social media companies have been hiding behind Section 230 for years, despite the fact that we've known how dangerous Oh, Section 230, which gives them some legal immunity from what is posted on their platforms, yeah? Yeah, that's correct. Section 230 was created in a totally different era in the early gaze of the internet and has become a liability shield that they've hidden behind for years and years, because this is effectively a products liability case brought under our consumer protection laws, there's an opportunity now to hold these companies accountable in a way that frankly has never existed before.

6:13Jake Bittle:And it's going to be a blueprint for what comes next. In terms of our own case, we will be back in front of the district court in May on our public nuisance claim. We'll be arguing that Meta has created a public nuisance. And we will, in addition to financial penalties, we'll be asking for injunctive relief, specific changes to the design features of the platform, the algorithm, elimination of end-to-end encryption for miners, and an independent monitor to really enforce those features and those changes. What it will also do is potentially create a roadmap or a blueprint for how this company could change its product offerings not only around the country, but around the world.

6:55Jake Bittle:Now, the jury in New Mexico has acquired Meta to pay$375 million, as you say, for violating state law. It was a fraction of what the state requested. We're talking about a company that's worth $1.5 trillion. Financially, could this effectively be a slap in the wrist? Well, we don't have any illusions that the fine that was rendered by the jury yesterday is sufficient deterrence to change their behavior. But if you think about the relative size of New Mexico and the user base here, if similar types of actions are brought in other jurisdictions, which I anticipate they will, the potential penalties will add up really quickly.

7:36Jake Bittle:And the financial impact on the company's bottom line will add up considerably. But I also think that the wave of litigation is going to prompt congressional action. I think it's going to prompt Congress to really re-examine Section 230 and some of the stalled legislation that's been pending there for quite some time. And when that happens, I think you're going to realize a sea change in the regulatory space in terms of what we expect of social media companies and the safety features built into their platforms. Raul Torres is the Attorney General of New Mexico. Mr. Torres, thank you again for joining us.

8:13Jake Bittle:Thank you so much.

8:18Jake Bittle:Coming up next, President Trump is a NIMBY when it comes to wind farms. And his backyard is the U.S. Robin Young has that story after the break.

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10:02Raúl Torrez:Get the car you love the easy way with Carvana. Let's take a closer look now at a settlement the Trump administration reached earlier this week. The Interior Department agreeing to pay almost a billion dollars to a French multinational oil company in exchange for them giving up their leases that allow them to build offshore wind farms in the Atlantic Ocean. Instead, the Trump administration hopes to direct the company's investments towards fossil fuels. Jack Biddle has been writing about this for our editorial partner, Grist. And Jack, a headline that Grist has written is pointed. It says the government is paying total energies.

10:38Raúl Torrez:That's the French company. Jake, rather. Sorry. Jake, the government is paying Total Energies, the French company, to halt a wind farm it isn't building in exchange for fossil fuel investments the company is already making. Can you flesh that out?

10:54Jake Bittle:Yeah, so when the Trump administration began last year, Trump said, I don't want to build any more wind farms. We're freezing all new wind sails. And so the industry has been at a standstill for more than a year now. And Total was not really, I don't think, planning to use this lease anytime soon. But the administration would have liked to cancel it. So basically the point of the settlement is to say, well, we're just going to basically refund you the cost of this lease, which is for an energy resource that the market doesn't really exist for anyway. And we're going to pay you this money to do oil and gas investments.

11:35Jake Bittle:This is an oil and gas company. It's one of the largest oil and gas companies in the world. They already invest in oil and gas. So there's an aspect of kind of just, it feels like the whole thing was sort of a waste of everyone's time, but there's also kind of a publicity stunt aspect about this as well, I think.

11:52Raúl Torrez:Well, we had to flesh that out because one would think, you know, this administration couldn't just block the development because it's against wind farms? Right.

12:02Jake Bittle:So they've tried to block the development of other wind farms. So in December, the Department of the Interior issued a stop work order for five that were, you know, some of them were already active and others were extremely close to being completed. They went zero for five in the courts on those. The courts threw those stop work orders out immediately, and those five wind farms are close to being finished. There really aren't any other major wind farms under construction, but the administration, I think, saw that it can't go in and just unilaterally cancel leases. So now it's sort of going to plan B, which is can we find a way to put a good spin on basically giving these companies a refund?

12:40Raúl Torrez:Well, how does a billion dollars of taxpayer money look like a good spin? It looks like a windfall for this company. And wouldn't other companies that maybe have been sitting on their leases, as you point out, because they're waiting for the Trump administration to move on, wouldn't they say, hey, yeah, give me a billion too?

12:58Jake Bittle:Right. So those are both really good questions. So it's important to know that Total actually did pay almost a billion dollars for these leases, which under the previous situation with a government that was completely uncooperative, were basically worth nothing because you couldn't build wind on them. So the government, this I think is like, even though it seems kind of like taxpayer subsidy to not produce wind, this is basically the government preemptively losing in court and saying, okay, fine, we'll refund you for this asset. I think you're right to say that maybe other companies might want refunds as well, and it's possible you'll see that.

13:33Jake Bittle:But really all that happens there is that then the territory goes back to the government, which perhaps in some future administration could lease it out again.

13:41Raúl Torrez:Look, we are also talking to you in a moment when we're hearing, in another segment on the program, that with what's happening in the Strait of Hormuz, there are a lot of energy companies who are saying, we actually might really want to think about shifting to renewable and wind farms. And, you know, we have all these new energy costs coming, you know, AI data centers, cryptocurrency, electric vehicles. What is your sense of how other companies might view what the Interior Department just did through that prism? Yeah, absolutely.

14:17Jake Bittle:So there is a broad sense globally that, you know, All kinds of energy resources are needed to meet demand growth. And many companies that have invested in U.S. offshore wind, including Total, Equinor, Orsted, the big ones in the East Coast, are still investing in offshore wind everywhere else. And they're even investing in other kinds of energy resources in the United States. I mean, Total develops and sells solar energy in parts of this country. I think this is just a huge hole, right? U.S. offshore wind is uninvestable because of the animus that the administration has displayed for it. So even though you need all kinds of energy, this is kind of the one that no one's interested in building at this moment other than the five that are almost complete.

15:00Raúl Torrez:And just briefly, this company secured these leases during the Biden administration. What are they saying about what's being lost when a project like this is bought off?

15:08Jake Bittle:Right, so I think there's a huge amount of work that goes into developing these leases, right? You do all these agreements with fishermen, tribes. it's kind of just a waste of their time. But as the CEO said in his statement in Houston when he signed this deal, we believe this is a more efficient use of capital in the United States right now. And since you can't build wind here right now, he's probably right. Yeah.

15:32Raúl Torrez:Well, look, you refer to it as total energies. I said total, the English. I also called you Jack. You are Jake. Jake Biddle, staff writer at Grist. Jake, thank you so much.

15:42Jake Bittle:Merci beaucoup.

15:47Jake Bittle:By the way, we reached out to the Department of Interior for comment on this story and have not heard back. But staying with energy, the price of oil is way up because of war in the Middle East, of course. But there's reason to believe the market is actually underpricing the risk. Coming up, why the U.S. can't drill its way to lower fuel prices. We'll be right back.

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17:39Jake Bittle:This week, the executive director of the International Energy Agency, Fatih Birol, pointed out the two oil crises in the 1970s together lost about 10 million barrels of oil a day. How does that compare to the war today? Only as of today, we lost 11 million barrels per day.

17:58Raúl Torrez:So more than two major oil shocks put together.

18:02Jake Bittle:Samantha Gross is director of the Energy Security and Climate Initiative at the Brookings Institution, And she tells Robin Young she's worried about where this is going because there's no apparent off-ramp in this war.