Mary's Gone Crackers: Mary Waldner

28:39I thought of that. I thought of putting the recipe in a cookbook. I thought of a lot of things. First of all, I knew nobody would make them. It was too hard if I gave you the recipe. you wouldn't do it. And then, and the same thing for licensing, because there were a few gluten-free companies by then, but not really. And yeah, I knew it wasn't going to happen. You know, and again, we learned enough in, I don't remember the order of things, but we knew that most food is co-manufactured, right? Yeah. Most food is not made by the companies, well, except for the huge, big companies, but most things you see at Whole Foods are not made by that brand.

29:22It's made in a co-packing facility that makes tons of things for other people. Yeah. And so you give somebody the recipe and, you know, you supervise that process, but somebody else has the equipment, somebody else has the expertise, all of that. And I, you know, this was a big point of contention in the beginning because Dale thought that we had to manufacture them ourselves. And I kept saying, no, that's impossible. We don't. Expensive, right? Yeah. We don't know what we're doing. Neither one of us. And he said, well, then find me a, because I bought, there was a book about, you know, with a list of co-packers.

30:03And of course, nothing was gluten-free. But you contacted these manufacturers? Yeah. And you called them and you would say what? You'd say, hey, I've got this recipe, but gluten-free, like, what would you say? Yeah. Well, also, what kind of equipment is even going to make these? We didn't know. So that was part of the process too. Just calling and asking questions and trying to figure it out. Yeah, what kind of equipment do you have? Most cracker places use a pretty standard dough machine that rolls out the crackers and cuts them, and that wasn't going to work. Right, because it's too gluey. Yeah.

30:40So, I mean, what ended up happening is I took, Now, in the Bay Area, there were a couple of food manufacturer facilities, and I took big bowls of dough to a couple places because there's another process that's like a form and fill where they would put the dough into these molds and, you know, drop it out onto the tray. But again, nothing's going to drop. Right, it was too gluey, yeah. So one guy helped me, and he was a real equipment specialist. This is a guy in the Bay Area? Yeah, and I gave him a bowl of dough, and he said, let me play with this for a while. And he worked on it and decided that one of the machines that's a cookie depositor could be adapted to at least get the blobs onto the pan.

31:37And then what ended up happening is we had to invent a machine that would flatten them because that was the challenge. So we got the blobs on the pan, but then we had to create our own piece of equipment that flattened them. All right. So you start this process of trying to find a way to make these. And this is going to take, I think, roughly five years. more or less. And while you're doing this, because you're still running your business and you're meeting with patients and Dale's doing his work. Did you have any money at all to finance this? How were you, I mean, I guess it was just taking trips to these factories, but if you had to buy equipment, how were you going to do that?

32:26Did you? Well, so I was working more on the manufacturing side of things and Dale was working on the business plan. We were both thinking about who to start approaching for money. How much money did you think you would need to get this off the ground? Well, our original raise was$750 ,000. And we thought, it's just the whole thing is so funny when I think about it, but we thought that would be enough, that that's all we would need. And how did you approach people? Who did you go to? Did you go to friends? Well, again, remember now, everyone and their brother has tasted these crackers and everyone loves them.

33:08One of my close friends who was in my women's group, her cousin loved them. And she was married to a very high level person at Bechtel Corporation. this was where Dale got a PhD in business in business plan writing and in finance and so this guy was not going to put a penny into it until that business plan was perfect and until he could sell it to his friends so he ended up becoming a lead investor and he brought in a lot of a few other Bechtel people and other people that he knew he brought in half the money Wow. Did you, I mean, in that business plan that Dale wrote, was he also talking about the growth of the gluten-free sector?

34:02Because we're now talking about the early 2000s, and this is just as it's starting to really, it's not going to blow up just yet, but it's on the cusp. Right, exactly. We were on the wave. And it was so hard to see. Obviously, we had no idea how huge it was going to be. But we knew something was happening. And I remember one point him saying, you know, we're going to miss the window. We're going to miss the window. Because everything took so much longer than we thought it would take. But we knew that there were something like 400 celiac support groups all over the country that we knew about. We knew they were, like me, they were very loyal to food that you find that you can eat.

34:53They read the labels. They also go to the stores and make sure if there's a product they want, that store will carry it. You know, they're huge advocates for themselves because they have to be. So we knew that existed. So as you're really diving into all this, I mean, you're going to, you're meeting with potential manufacturers. You're doing all of this research. At what point, because this really starts in 1999, how were you able to manage your day job? And how was Dale able to manage his day job? Were you just, was it like, was it just a slow creep of like reducing your hours and reducing your hours?

35:34Well, no, it was the year before we started the actual manufacturing that Dale quit his job. And I was still working because I had more flexibility. But otherwise, up until then, yeah, we were both working and doing this. All right. So you're trying to figure out how to get this done. But really, I mean, it seems like the ultimate goal, really, Dale was really focused on making it yourself. He was still committed to this idea that you guys would manufacture the crackers yourselves and not work with a co-packer. But to get this off the ground, was that even possible? No, I didn't think so. And so this is where what ended up happening was, like I said, I had gone through all the co-packers and nobody could do that.

36:34And then I started pulling products from my cabinet and my freezer to look at who was making gluten-free food and where were they and could they help us? And that's when I found this company that was making this rice crust pizza. And they were in California. They were in Chico. I told them what I was doing and I asked if they had room and if they were interested. And they said, yeah, they thought they could probably do it. And they were making rice crust pizzas. Pizza, right. Frozen rice crust pizzas. And they were game for working with you somehow. But you presumably would have to supply the equipment.

37:14Well, when we went up there, we saw that they had one piece of equipment that we needed, which was this huge rice cooker thing. It's hard to describe, but it was kind of the combination of the food processor and the rice cooker and everything that would make the dough. So what else did you need to get to the next step? Because you get the dough, but then you've got to actually get some machine to automate it so you can make them quickly. Right. So how do you get the dough out of that vat into these cookie depositor things? And there was nobody who could answer that question, right? No. Because nobody was making anything like this.

37:54No wonder it took you five years to figure this out. Okay. So how did you solve that problem? And who had the answer to that? Well, this was, again, a lot of experimenting. They had experience with this hot, gooey dough. And when they followed the proportions of my recipe, the dough would get stuck in the machine because it wouldn't flow through the stainless steel tubing. And my recipe, it wouldn't flow. It was too dry. And they kept saying, you have to add more water. And I kept saying, no, because that's not my recipe. This went on quite a while. And eventually what I did was I said, okay, we'll make some your way.

38:44with more water and see what happens. So anyway, we made a batch with more water, and then we did a blind taste test, and everybody liked the ones with more water better than my handmade ones. So that's what did it. That's what allowed me to add more water to my recipe. So when you were ready to go, And while you were doing the sort of laying the groundwork, right, because you were focused on figuring out how to make these at scale. And Dale was focused on the business plan. But there are other things to do, too. I mean, there's there's branding. There's right. Packaging, design, packaging, design.

39:29And then where to sell them. Right. So were you did you start to go to food conference conventions? We did that before. Yeah, we we had started going to food shows. And you were looking for, presumably, connections to stores. Well, there was so much to learn. I was looking for packaging equipment. What kind of boxes did we want? We spent a lot of time in grocery stores buying cookies and crackers and looking at packaging and calling lots of cold calls. So I have all the people that I was making cold calls to, you know, for packaging, for ingredient supply, for design. We found a graphic designer before we got our money, which was just a huge boost to have somebody like that who was amazing.

40:26And she designed the logo and the look for Mary's Contractor? Yeah, yeah. She helped. It was the two of us, you know. She and I were a great team, and she made us look so much more together than we were. So how did you find, I mean, even before you did your first production run, did you have a store that was ready to go on deck to sell them? No. In the food business, you don't sell to stores. You sell to distributors. and there was one distributor at the time that specialized in gluten-free stuff. But our strategy was different. We wanted to get the crackers into people's mouths because we knew, obviously, by that time that anytime anybody ate them, they would love them.

41:23For example, the gluten-free distributor, we gave them little sample packs and they gave them to their truck drivers. And so the truck drivers would taste them and they would deliver them with whatever they were delivering. And so again, we knew these crackers were gonna get into the hands of the buyers, which is what we wanted. We sent out our samples to those 400 celiac support groups for the same reason. We got the list of, you know, UNFI is the largest natural food distributor. Back then it was divided by regions. Now it's all one all over the country. But we got their top 100 stores. And we sent a package of our crackers and a letter from me in a nice box because we had a great logo and we had great packaging.

42:21and we sent them to all the grocery buyers of those top 100 stores. So we were just going directly to the people that we knew would love these crackers and would want them. In those first two years, where was your product sold? What markets? Well, this was mostly little independent co-ops, independent health food stores. Those were the guys that liked us. And how did you get people to find out about it? Because, you know, you go to a health food store, there's hundreds, thousands of products in there. Well, we did have, we did demos. It was all, you know, we tried everything. It was really, there were events, like outdoor events where we would set up a booth.

43:13It was a lot, a lot, a lot of sampling. Tell me, in that first sort of first two years after launch, I've read you talking about you were stressed out, super stressed out about money. You guys were in debt and some serious personal debt yourselves. Right. By the way, why were you in personal debt? I mean, you had taken on$750 ,000. Well, we spent a lot of money before we raised that money to get there. To get equipment? Well, to do everything we had to do to get to raise money, even. So we didn't buy equipment on our own, But, you know, the graphic designer or going to trade shows or, you know, all the things that we were doing, you know, we were probably about$150 ,000 in debt.

44:21Meaning you took a loan out? No, we just were using credit cards. I see. Okay. Yeah. And did that make you nervous? Yeah, it made me nervous. So Dale and I would talk a lot about if this didn't work, how long would it take us to pay this off? And could we do it? And yeah. Yeah. So you've got this initial funding. And I have to assume you are still majority shareholders, even with the seed money you raised. Yes. But you get to the point, I think, about two years in where you need more money. Right. And this is around 2007. And you guys decide to seek that money out. First of all, tell me, is that true?

45:08Like you needed more money to expand? Well, okay. So in 2006, we moved up there. You moved up to Chico. Yeah. So that's when I closed my practice. And we moved up to in that area because we opened up our we moved out of that co-packer and open and got our own space because we were growing really quickly. Yeah. So you own now you own the production facility. Well, not the building, but everything in it. Yeah. So we needed more money to do that. That was with with our original investors. We raised more money. That was another, a whole other stress because, mostly because they didn't understand the food business and they were engineers, a lot of them, and they thought we should be profitable by now.

46:00And so they were giving us a lot of pressure and telling us we were a failing company. These are the friends and family round that you did. Yeah. A lot of the Bechtel engineers, they were saying, hey, why aren't you profitable? This is failing. We should, you should, you should wind up, close down the business. The food world was telling us we were an incredible phenomenon, that nothing happens like this in the food world. And our board was telling us, you know, shut it down. Why were they saying shut it down? Because you were... We weren't profitable. We were, you know, because we were growing so fast.

46:36And the more you grow, which I didn't understand, I don't think Dale did either, that you need more cash. because you have more product in the pipeline and you're not getting your money back as quickly. And you just need more and more cash as you get bigger and bigger. And then on top of that, we had to move into our own space. We never could have grown at the rate that we needed to grow in the co-packer. We almost went out of business with them because they just really didn't care, and they were very sloppy, and we needed to take over. So in 2006, we moved up there. I closed my practice and did that.

47:22But you did raise additional money, but not from everybody. Some of them dropped out. So half of the people were our friends, and they were always supportive. And the people who were on the board were the larger investors, and they did help us raise money. They did invest, but they gave us a really hard time about it and kind of made us wait until we were, you know, terrified that we wouldn't be able to continue. It was just very stressful. So you needed to raise, like, significant cash, right? Yeah. Like, in the millions. And how much did you think you needed to raise? well i don't know how much we thought we needed to raise but once we moved up there what we wanted to raise a million a million okay yeah and you needed institutional money for that or some venture money for that we probably didn't need to but that's what we thought yeah that's who was courting us let me put it that way and and who and what the a particular venture firm was courting you that had heard about you had met you at a trade show they'd been watching us for a while Yeah.

48:35OK. And this is a venture group that I think specializes in investing in food startups. Right. All right. And so you took a meeting with these these investors as venture this VC group. And and so and so how much did you end up raising from them? Uh, we did get a million from them and more, I have to say more than that they were going to give us some money is that they were going to help us grow and be in the, be at the level that, you know, we were in over our heads by that time, you know, to be, to be our own manufacturing facility, to, um, to be this incredible fast growing company. there was so much the learning curve was so steep and to meet people who had done this before who had been very successful in a variety of fields who knew everybody and could you know we wanted some partners is really what we wanted yeah um with your new partners um and they did they and did they buy a majority share no company god thank god no 14 actually it wasn't a significant share or we would have lost the company.

49:51All right, so 14%. And were they helpful? Maybe for a minute, but no, not really. Well, what happened? They had a very different agenda. I think it maybe took about three months where we had a little bit of a honeymoon phase where they did connect us with a better sales force and better manufacturing expertise and things like that. But it was very soon that it became clear that what they wanted was to take over the company. When we come back in just a moment, Mary draws on years of experience as a psychotherapist to try and keep her company from going off the rails. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

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53:15Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2007, and Mary and Dale have partnered with a venture capital group to help grow the company. But that investment has come with an unexpected burden. Neither Dale or I in the beginning had a clue that this is what it meant to take money from a VC. They started undermining, especially Dale, questioning everything, accusing him of things. just it started to get hostile and then Dale started to study what it meant, what VCs, you know, what their dynamic was, especially back then. And started looking at how they had treated other companies and it became very clear.

54:06We were so naive. What did they want you to do? They wanted you to, I mean, presumably, I'm just, I don't know, obviously it wasn't in the room, but I have to assume they're making recommendations based on what they think will be best for the health of the business. They said, just don't worry about the money. Don't worry about the money. Just grow. But what that meant was the faster we grew, the more money we needed. And they had set it up that we couldn't get more money beyond a certain amount without their approval. And so they almost did it. They didn't do it because Dale was smarter than them.

54:47They wanted us to be dependent so that the money would cost us more and more. In other words, you would lose more and more equity in the business. And more and more board seats, which is more important to them. They wanted more board seats because you felt that they wanted to eventually take over and control the business. Absolutely. So when you started to, when the tension began, well, what did that mean? Did you stop communicating with them? What started to happen? No, we never stopped communicating with them. They just had this kind of party line that everything we were doing was wrong. So the first thing they did was, so Dale and I had always been co-whatever, CEOs, co-presidents, partners in every way.

55:42The first thing they did was they said Dale had to be CEO because someone had to be financially responsible, right? So they made Dale CEO. And what did they want me to do? You can be whatever you want. You can call yourself whatever you want. So it was very demeaning. They were really demeaning to me. And that was, you know, this kind of divide and conquer mentality of. So they would question Dale's mental health at one point. They just undermined everything. I'm just I'm confused. I'm confused. How did they even have that kind of power? They had 14 percent of business. Because we we trusted them.

56:28You know, these are really experienced business people. I don't remember the details of their contract, but they they were the preferred, you know, shareholders and everybody else was common. So that gave them certain privileges. I see. So they had the right under the agreement to make certain demands of you guys. Like we had to become a Delaware corporation instead of the LLC that we had been. You know, they started changing the structure. That's not abnormal. That happens. Right. And obviously there's, you know, there are conditions that come with taking outside money. Right. Right. But it doesn't sound like they did anything that was out of the ordinary from what VCs tend to do.

57:14I mean, they want to see quick growth. They want to see fast growth. They want to see a return on their investment. They usually want to see a 10x return. And, you know, they're putting in a million bucks. Right. But we didn't know any of that. We didn't understand that. That's not what they told us. There was nothing, nothing verbalized ever about what their agenda was or what their plan was other than to help us grow and to partner with us. But again, I mean, I don't know the circumstance. I don't know the people who are involved and they're not here to defend themselves. But I mean, it can't just be a story of the evil VCs versus the pure founders here.

57:53I mean, you guys did take the money and they were making an investment. And, you know, in their defense, that means you want a return on that investment and you want to get it as quickly as possible. Well, see, the quickly as possible, we didn't know. The return on investment was fine. We were a hugely successful, fast-growing company. I still to this day think that if they had really partnered with us and had helped us grow instead of battling us, which is all they did really, they really never helped us grow, that we all would have made out much better than what ended up happening. But they were so desperate to just get rid of us and do it the way they thought it had to be done.

58:45Forget for a moment about wanting to get rid of you guys, but was there a difference in view on branding and where to sell the product? No. You were all aligned there. No, we had great conversations about the vision of the company, and they really had their recipe, and we were not allowing them to do that. And then it became a battle between them and us personally, where they just hated us because we kept beating them at this game. Beating them at what game? Well, the game of trying to get rid of us. They were, you know, we were older. We weren't in our 20s because of our friends, not because of us by that time, but because of our friends, we still had a majority share of the business because they voted with us anytime we asked them to.

59:37And so basically, I mean, I have to imagine that, you know, three months into getting this money, you guys realize it was a mistake from your perspective to take the money because these were not the partners that you wanted. Right. They probably realized maybe they had made a mistake because you were not the founders that they wanted. And so I have to imagine, you know, this is going to last for a long time. You guys were still going to be in the same business together for a while. We asked them if we could buy them out. They refused. They would not take it. Okay. They didn't even accept an offer.

1:00:16They wouldn't even. No, that's why I say I think it felt like personal by that time, you know.

1:00:25So while this is going on, I mean, you're juggling running a business and trying to grow the business and also this like constant, you know, sort of low hum of legal issues in the background always. How are you just personally doing? I mean, you are a therapist, so your job is to help other people figure out how to cope. How are you doing? Let's see. So when we moved up to Paradise, which is near Chico, the first two years, so between 2006 and 2008. So we took the money in 2007. And so now we're running the factory full time. We're up, you know, Dale's up at four in the morning and he's on the factory floor.

1:01:12I'm there pretty much right behind him. But my body starts to give out. And by 2008, I decided that we now have a toddler business on our hands, not an infant business. And with toddlers, you can start hiring babysitters, you know. So at this point, you could start hiring other people. Yep. Yeah. So I decided that I was going to I had to take care of myself. And I decided not to go in first thing every morning. I would not go into the office until, you know, 10, 11, even 12 sometimes so that I would have time in the morning to do yoga, to walk, to breathe, you know, to feed myself, all the things that I had stopped doing.

1:02:01Yeah. So I'm good at that because I had learned what I needed and I'm good at that. Dale, not so much. He's just really good at pushing and that's what he kept doing. He was working, working, working. Yeah. And dealing with the legal issues. Right. But despite all this, you're growing, I think, by 2012. And this is like, you know, you're still in the midst of legal battles with these investors. And at the same time, you guys were growing, I think, about 40 % year over year. I think by 2012, you had like 250 or so employees. Yeah. Yeah. I think we were at 30 million as a company then. Wow. And you were in every Whole Foods by that point and even supermarket chain.

1:02:49So you really, I mean, the product had really kind of just grown and sold itself because by that point you're everywhere. You're$430 plus million in revenue, but still have this thing hanging over your head, these investors. And so were you constantly thinking, were you and Dale constantly thinking, how can we get rid of them? How can we figure out a way to get them out? They really wanted us to sell the company because that was the only way. That they could make a profit. They could get out, that they were willing to get out. Like I said, we asked if we could buy them out earlier and they refused.

1:03:26So it was us holding on as long as we could and them pressuring us to sell. And a couple of years before that, we had been approached by this Japanese company that wanted to buy us way before we were ready. But they, being the Japanese, they're very patient. Time is not the same for them as it is for U.S. companies. And they hung around. And they, this is a company called Kameda. Kameda, right. And they are, I think, the biggest – they kind of own the Japanese rice cracker market. Yes. They're the largest rice cracker manufacturer in Japan. Yeah. And they have a U.S. subsidiary. That subsidiary made an offer that you guys accepted at the end of 2012.

1:04:18Right. And so in the end, they bought I think a little less than 80 percent of the company for around$45 million. and basically at that point everyone's off the cap table. It's just you and the remaining shares, you and Dale owned, right? And so what did that mean? I mean presumably that was both a relief but maybe a bit bittersweet. I mean on the one hand, you don't have to deal with those investors anymore. Now you've got this massive multinational huge company. Yeah, and they knew how to manufacture. for the first time we were going to. Well, they already, you know, the first two years they were there, they brought people from Japan, their manufacturing experts, right away to clean up our, I mean, there was so much room for improvement.

1:05:10But they also made the commitment to, we needed an automated line. Yeah. And they were willing to do that. And so you and Dale both had, to your commitment, you would become chairman. But I think not too long after the acquisition, your marriage with Dale ended, right? Let's see. He moved out around the same time that two-year period was up. So it was probably about a year after the acquisition. I mean, things had, obviously, the issues were there all along, but it was really clear to me after a year that he couldn't stop. I was ready to celebrate. I wanted to relax. I wanted to stop traveling as much.

1:06:01We didn't have to do what we did up until that point. And he didn't want to. He wanted to keep going, and we were on very different paths by that time. I mean, I imagine just the toll of the business, too, is going to have an impact on your relationship. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I guess it was funny because Dale used to say when I would ask him to stop, you know, to take some time off, and he always felt like he was in way over his head, which we both were. But he was on the front line way more than me, and I understand that. But I also know that you can only do so much, and taking some time to yourself would only make things better.

1:06:46And he would say things like, you know, if this business fails, our marriage won't work. You know, that was his big fear. And that was not my fear. But the irony, which was that when it succeeded, it was when it failed, our marriage failed. Because he couldn't get off of that merry-go-round. I think he enjoyed it on some level or he was hooked on it or whatever. So he fulfilled his two-year commitment and left and was able to sell his shares. You fulfilled your two-year commitment, but then you signed on for another four years. They wanted me to stay, yeah. And as a consultant and sort of slash brand ambassador?

1:07:35Well, in the beginning when I was still full-time, I became a consultant the last two years. But there were two more years in there that I was full-time and I was there. I was still in that area. But I wanted to make new products. I had a lot of ideas. And that was really why I stayed. You left, I think, in 2018, finally. Yes. And there's something that you said in an interview a couple years ago. And it's interesting. You said, I want to read this to you. So you said, when I look back on this journey, this was not a generally joyous experience for me to do this business.

1:08:24There was very little joy on a day-to-day basis. That sounds like, part of me is like, God, was it worth it? You know, when I hear that, when you hear you say that. Well, what was joyful for me was how many people loved my product and how many times I would go out into the more of the public domain and be told that not only do they love my product, but they love me because of how the product saved their lives. and so that made it worth it to me because I understand that it saved my life too and I was I was surprised by the response but I shouldn't have been because it was it was what I was going through so that brought me and still brings me incredible satisfaction to know that that I helped a lot of people and still do.

1:09:33And all that went into, I mean, five years of just R &D and uncertainty over money and then another seven years of challenges, legal issues, growing the business, but travel, trying to get it on store shelves, dealing with people who were not always straightforward. Still worth it. Yeah, I would say yes. I think, I mean, I'm obviously a different person. There was a point in there where I said to myself and I said to God, you know, why am I having to learn this in my 50s? You know, why am I having to deal with people who lie and look you straight in the face and lie and want to steal. And, you know, my other joke is that I never dealt with crazier people as a therapist until I stopped being a therapist and went and started this business, you know.

1:10:38So, and I wondered, you know, why I lived all these years without having to deal with people like this? Why am I doing this now? And, you know, I don't exactly have the answer. I think part of it is this kind of venue where I get to talk about it and where I get to, where I, you know, I've spoken a lot over the years where I get to warn people about starting businesses and what, you know, what to look out for. And I'm not sure about what my development, you know, like I said, I put everything in the context of my own growth and my own development. And obviously I'm a different person having gone through this.

1:11:20Yeah. Yeah. When you think back on this journey that you took, you know, and you were a therapist until you were, you know, really into your mid 50s. And that was your career. And then you kind of go on this quixotic adventure, which turned out to be a good call. Starting this brand, which is available everywhere. You can get it at Walmart, Kroger. I mean, Mary's Gone Crackers are available everywhere. It's your name is on it. It's like we had Stacey Madison, Stacey's Pita Chips on the show a few years ago. And, you know, it doesn't matter. She can go to a Costco or Walmart, wherever she goes, and she's going to see her name on a bag of chips in a shopping cart somewhere.

1:12:04She just knows. It's her. And you're going to see that. And you probably still see that. How much of your story and what happened to you do you attribute to how hard you worked and just the way you approach this? and how much do you think had to do with luck? The way I look at it is that when you get a message from the spirit world or whatever you want to call it, you hear a voice, you have an idea that really touches to your core, whatever language you want to use, and you don't honor that, that that's a mistake. because when you honor it, the universe works with you and supports you. And yes, we worked really hard, but there was a lot of magic involved.

1:12:57There were so many moments when it could have gone the wrong way, and it didn't. And so I don't think luck is the word that I would use. I would say that we dove in 100 % and we made that commitment and the universe supported us. And it's always a team effort between what we do in this physical world and making sure that the message that we're sending to the other realm is that we really want this, we're really committed to it, and we're going to do whatever it takes to make it happen. Because when you do that, the rest of the world, the invisible realm, lines up behind you to make it happen. That's Mary Waldner, founder of Mary's Gone Crackers.

1:13:57By the way, whenever Mary sees her crackers out in the wild... It's fun. I saw a guy in the grocery store the other day, and he was standing in line behind me carrying like four boxes of my crackers. I said, oh, you're buying a lot of those. He said, oh, yeah, they're on sale. I didn't say anything, but it was just fun, you know. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please be sure to follow How I Built This. Just click the follow button on your podcast app. It's usually a plus sign right at the top so you never miss a new episode. And it's totally free. If you want to contact our team, our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com.

1:14:39This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by Casey Herman with research help from Sam Paulson. Our production staff also includes J.C. Howard, Neva Grant, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, and Liz Metzger. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.

1:15:06if you like how i built this you can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts prime members can listen ad free on amazon music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey