Giles Brook: How to actually sell your food and drink brand, raise money and be a formidable founder, lessons from industry titan from Innocent, Vita Coco, BEAR, Mindful Chef, Dalston's

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

0:25Hi there guys, thank you so much for listening as always, it means the absolute world to me. Before we jump into this episode, I need a really big, big, big, big favour. I have pitched to some massive guests, humongous guests, and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough. Please, please, please just hit the subscribe button on Apple or Spotify or Follow. Ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations, equals hopefully better insights for you, which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well. So please hit that subscribe button and yeah, enjoy this episode.

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3:22Thank you so much. I want to make sure we... Can you hear us? All good? Can you hear me? Yeah, as well. Good. Perfect. That's a start. Are we definitely recording? Because I've had a few happenstance where I've done a full podcast and hasn't bloody recorded. It's been a bit of a nightmare. But guys, thank you so much for coming today. Like, super grateful and absolutely thrilled to welcome Giles Brook to Bread and Jam and to the podcast. It's an absolute joy. So thanks for coming, mate. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. So a bit about, I mean, Giles is an industry titan, formidable founder.

3:59He's worked with so, so many brands. Just kind of a little kind of bio surprise before we jump into the full episode. But commercial director and general manager at Innocent for four years, helping take them from 17 to 120 million. CEO of Vitacoco, Amir for 12 years, launched in Europe, built that to 60 million founding partner in uh urban fresh foods whose brand bear whom i'm sure we all know um became the uk's number one fruit snacking brand uh successfully sold that to lotus bakeries and now your list of brands that you invest in is honestly longer than the river nama it's um yeah pippa nut bets mindful chef um sir kensington edgar and cooper presto cheeky panda biome, surreal.

4:43I mean, the list is just endless. So yeah, thank you. Really appreciate it. Thank you. So for those who have listened to the podcast, you'll know I kind of meander quite a bit. And we've got about 35 minutes. I'm going to try and keep it like super tight and punchy. And then we'll go into some questions for Giles afterwards. But where I want to start is this quote that I absolutely love. And it's excellence is the ability to take pain. And it's by the founder of the Four Seasons. And I think everyone in this room on their journey at some point is, is, is going to go through some pain, whether it's losing a listing, whether it's losing an employee, whether it's not getting an investment.

5:23Um, and there is this, this pain threshold. It's a common theme in a lot of the podcasts I do. And on your Instagram, I know you do a lot of Ironman and triathlete. And I was having like a little mooch, having a little scroll. And I found a quote which is very kind of similar to the to the journey that these guys are going on now and it summed up your your triathlon in hawaii and it was brutal unique unforgiving and life-changing i really do believe that there's a parallel to the um to the tantra brand journey so i think my first my first question like what is the most specific amount of pain you've been on on a triathlon like where was it and what like what were the voices in your head uh yeah sorry let let me just give you a bit of context on this so I think one of the things I quickly realized when not just when I started up I guess as I've kind of been going through my business journey is that I could only be really successful in work if I basically knew what I was a passionate about and I pursued that outside of work as well and that came in parallel and I think in the early days I sacrificed my personal life and my health to a certain extent by just working 24 7 7 days a week and I was fairly effective very busy not amazingly happy but also knew that actually for me for the business for the people around me getting more embracing more about what I'm passionate about and getting back into that actually meant that I was much more productive and much more successful for both me and the business within business and that's where it all came about and you know pushing yourself and endurance racing has been something that's been you know really important to me I've got most of my friends set these days actually are people I'm very fortunate I travel the world and people laugh because if there's a UK race you won't find me in many UK races because the water's typically too cold I prefer racing where the temperature's at least 20-25 degrees in the water but that's really fueled my whole life right and you know a couple of very quick stories is that you know Pippa Murray who some of you guys may know Pippa Nutt you know she used to be a really avid runner she got in the business and that stopped one of the first things i said to her was get back out running and she did that and obviously the difference that that made to her you know was amazing the other story i'll give you as well is that when i was at vitacoker i remember we're in a board meeting and you know they always laugh because i come into a meeting either sweating or else slightly tired because i've been out doing whatever training and i remember one of the main investors and the company in the name remain remain anonymous but he said to me he said look we're just a bit worried how much time you're spending training and stuff like that and is this adversely affecting the business so i just turned around and i said look be honest with you if that's how you feel and you put me on the spot the business i'll go because it's not going to work you have no idea i actually flip around the other way all the success all the pats on the back you're giving everybody in the team that wouldn't come unless you gave me the opportunity or i i did all the you know all these sort of things so So I think what I would say to you, my number one advice for you guys today, for those of you who are on the journey or just about to embark on the journey is it can become all-encompassing.

8:33It will engulf you and everything. But be selfish as well, right? Carve out time for you because if you carve out time for yourself, you will be much, much more successful and the longevity in the business will be a lot more. but to kind of answer Dan's question around around pain right it's so I was fortunate enough to qualify for like something called the Ironman World Championships which is in Kona in Hawaii which is a tough gig to go to as you can imagine um took my wife my two boys which is which is really important to me oh my god it is expensive I mean like a loaf of bread on the island is 12 dollars a carton of what you know of Tropicana was 16 bucks right so they've got this captive audience on this tiny island and you just bleed money for the kind of 10 days you're there but you kind of look at it and say well how tough can a race get you know so you do like a just under a 4k swim which is like right out to the middle of the ocean and back and i'm not brilliant in deep oceans when i think about things like sharks and stuff so you got to get your head around that a bit let alone being in the middle of a tumble dry and everybody whacking you and pushing you down and stuff so we got through that the bike was actually fine i absolutely loved the bike the winds were brutal but the worst big actually was the run because you hit something called the energy lab and that's an area that's an area where typically the tarmac is at about 40 degrees 42 degrees so you're kind of whatever it is seven hours or actually probably about five hours into a race and you're seeing people that are absolutely exceptional just passing out and just collapsing all around your left right and center and that's probably the most painful bit for me because you you're kind of, it's a slight upgrading up to that.

10:08You're about, I don't know, you're about 20K into a 40K or 42K marathon. And that's when you realize that's where your mind suddenly says, you've got to get your head around this, otherwise you're going to really struggle. And you just say, you know, and the best thing for me was is that, and it just shows you, and I'll probably put it under the word perseverance, is that there's people who used to beat me week in, week out on the circuit in other races, but they cracked at Kona. They couldn't deal with the heat. and it just got the better of them. And you were seeing people who are, you know, I mean, these guys, some of these guys I race with, even, you know, I'm 49.

10:42There's people I race with who've done that 4K swim, 180K bike. I've got guys in my age group running a marathon at the end in two hours, 45 after doing all that. And you've got guys like you've seen like that who are suddenly walking because they just can't do it. And that's probably the best example of pain for me. And that was just, I've learned that just to zone out actually and just to find a way to, if I zone out, I don't think about it too much. That's my coping strategy in that sort of time. But it's all relative for different people. But, you know, pain for me is also that swimming experience because when I'm out in the deep ocean, I have to really get my head around that because I really struggle with that.

11:15It's probably more anxiety than pain, but I really struggle with that bit as well. There's so much you've said. I think the first piece is super interesting with those investors where they're like, almost, you can't be taking time out to go and run. You can't be taking out, you should be working all the time. People in the audience will think, I need to be working 24-7. I think one of the common themes with a lot of founders I've interviewed they start like that where they were just working their bollocks off all the time constant work work work work and then actually they realized it's time to take space because space is where you solve problems whether it's out on a track or on a walk so I think that's that's delicious what you've just said there but then this pain thing about you know being out in the ocean you're swimming and it's what I suppose I'm trying to get in get into is is what how do you keep going because yeah I think a lot of it is is like how is everyone in this room is going to go through some kind of challenge and it's just about keep going so what what does giles say to himself when he's got his swimming cap on in dolly here white i mean look there's a number of things that go through your head i mean the first you know i guess what is the alternative because you're right in the middle of the ocean you're surrounded by you know up to 4 000 people and it's like tap holes in a bucket uh even though it's a big ocean because you're all on this racing line so it can be pretty brutal but I guess the alternative is you can put your hand up and somehow rescue a bit or come get you sorted out but then you've got to live with that for the rest of your life right so that for me isn't an alternative um I think ultimately for what I do you know and this is actually probably I break it into sections right and let's just say I'm struggling in the water there's another 15 boys to go I'll just keep going one boy at a time so it's different than business right you might look at your business and go oh my god I've got this tsunami coming at me right break it down into individual components and then look at each individual one because then actually it's a lot easier than you know you know you know to conquer that and like i said my only my other thing i do as well and i just zone out because the more i think about it and manifest about what what you know the negative connotations could be i just zone out and if i zone out actually i just you know time goes a lot quicker and i just you know i get through it and i think you need to mention the bike one thing i did because obviously i do train quite a bit i drive a lot of my um the business i work with i'll drive a lot of those guys mad because if i go on the bike for three or four hours it's my thinking time right and they all know when i've been on the bike because they'll be like oh god hear all the emails because i'll suddenly i've been thinking about lots of things and then when i come off the bike i'll jump on the computer i'll go just been out it's been thinking about this and this and they're like oh god he's been on the bike again and that's that's my thinking time and you know yeah i said for me i think escapism and following your passion whilst you're trying to build a business i think is what delivers the optimum success for both you as an individual entrepreneur or founder or a managing director as well as for the other people in that business and importantly the investors behind that business as well and kind of like linking it to the parallel with your brands right so you've had so many success stories uh you know early days of innocent vitacoco bear um all the brands you invest in what it looks on that on that kind of cv i suppose that it's been yeah you know amazing it is amazing it's a couple of failures by the way and i'm really happy to talk about those as well what's the most painful failure or what's the failure that taught you the most like what's your favorite failure i suppose um so if i'm i'm gonna let me answer that with it so with an investor hat on right if i'm saying an investor hat today i think probably the number one thing that and it's only happened in one or two examples i've got involved in a couple of businesses where i didn't connect with the founder and actually that's the number one lesson for me unless I connect with the founder and it's no different actually if I interview somebody or if I'm speaking with the founder I'll know within the less than 60 seconds whether that's going to work or not um so I think I've made a couple of mistakes there and the reason why that's been mistakes it's not just a mistake for me it's also a mistake for them as well because if we're not compatible you can't go on a journey together it doesn't work and you know whether that's your value system whether it's your beliefs whether it's how you want to scale your business and you know I've had a couple of founders who literally have just you know i'm i'm about building so if you think about investment and building a business you can either go like the low road or you can go the mid road or the high road right um and i'm probably in the mid road but what's the point of me being an investor who they just want to keep raising money and just throwing mud at the wall and just see what sticks and just doesn't care it's kind of a shit or bust model right that doesn't work for me i was talking with um a lovely lady called amelia who runs the bold b company i just had a coffee with her a second ago and we were talking about this and you know a great example of that is that i'd have people really early who come to me and say right i want to put a million pounds on a on a on a marketing campaign or on a advertising first advertising campaign i say no but i'll tell you what here's 50 000 let's go and prove it in one region if it works then let's spend the money and scale it up but don't make the big bet because if the big bet doesn't come off you know the consequences can be quite significant and you said that you didn't marry with the found like was that a values difference because you know people everyone in this room is going to have to try and raise money at some point and it's what should they be doing yeah it's values it's approach it's you know like i said it's the style of running a business it's you know it's also how they you know treat their employees in the business and the bit stuff there's loads of different i think the most important thing for me is you know finding a founder who i believe you know what you know the passion i want to do you know they really inspire motivate you know the people around them they really respect the brand they're really you know they're also really respect and and and and have huge integrity as well um for everybody including investors and i always talk about this thing which is you know one of the biggest things for me as an investor is that i don't work you know for me i'm not this external person either i'm in a business or not in a business so i roll my sleeves up i get fully involved there's a problem at a manufacturing site i'll jump on a plane or train or whatever and i'll go there and do that and i think one of the things i always say to my guys though is that i have this one simple rule actually which is no surprises yeah i have no issue with bad news whether it's a d-list or else something is somebody spent a lot of money and it hasn't worked or something like that the biggest thing for me is just just tell me about it we'll get through it together right and i'll give you an example of that right so one of the best things i ever saw was so we were on the vitacoco board and um obviously majority of the vitacoco businesses in the u.s so i was running the european division but majority of the business is on the US.

17:38Anyway, in the US, it is a very litigious culture, right? If there is an ability to sue a company for wrongdoing its consumer, some sort of attorney will put something up on the website that said, if you've drunk this in the last few years, so for example, we had, it's like, you know, it's like sticking a straw in a coconut. And because we flash pasteurize, because we put it down the production line to make it safe for everybody, by the way, because actually, it's not often safe to drink a coconut straight, straight literally off a tree because sometimes some of the bacterial and parasites haven't been killed off but just by putting you know it's like drinking a straw through coconut on the packaging we then had a multi multi-million pound lawsuit that any consumer who had basically drank the product could now claim against the company okay now i won't give you the exact numbers albeit might have been put in press before but we're talking multi-million okay that unless we got some funds to support that.

18:34Well, you had two options. We actually believe we've done nothing wrong. And actually, our lawyers said, you should fight that all the way. But when you looked at how long that was going to take, the cost of that, but more importantly, the time and distraction from actually getting on and building the business, we had to make the really difficult choice to say, we're going to actually swallow this and pay this lawsuit out. And the most amazing thing was, if you saw the figures, you'd have literally fallen backwards. It was horrendous. But our Our main investor was somebody called Verlinvest, which is the Stella InBev family.

19:05A lovely guy called Eric ran that fund. And we delivered that news in that board meeting. And do you know what I saw there? And it's the best example. I just saw him go, that's good. How much do you need? When do you need it? We'll get through this together. And actually showing balanced behaviors in both the good and the bad times is probably one of the best things I've ever seen and stuff like that. And that's why I talk about no surprises. And don't get me wrong. Like everybody else, sometimes something I'll get my back up or something will annoy me and I'll, you know, maybe get a little bit heated.

19:35But the big thing is, is that, you know, if I work with the founder and I'm honest to them, they're honest to me and there's no surprises. It's a lot easier then to have a kind of a longer, a longer, more successful tenure of both business and relationship. Boeimi, our beloved sponsor, are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands. And look, if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist, your first 100 stockist to wholesale, Boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up. But if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger, Boemi are also insane.

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20:40I use it all the time at Ireland. I read somewhere on the internet, obviously, that you've got a 15-point criteria. Yes. Investing in brands. Yeah. So the first, obviously, we can kind of whittle through some of those. And then I'd love to go into what are the one to three maybe that are super important. So we've talked about this. No surprises, open communications. Do you want to go into that? So one thing to clarify straight away is when you hear somebody talking about 15-point criteria, you think I'm probably some real nerdy geek. Like guys, it's all got to be done on data, right? So I had the benefit of working at Innocent, right?

21:16Innocent's probably the most incredible business, but incredibly insights-driven. I then worked with Vita Coco where I've got Mike Kerbin, who's the founder, who's like, bollocks the data. If I feel it's the right thing to do, I'm going to throw myself at it, right? I'm somewhere in the middle, right? So that's the first thing to say, right? So that's important. So the 15 point criteria, I've already covered the founder one, but I think the founder one, I'm just going to just want to cover one other bit on that, right? So one of the criteria is, is when I look at the founder, it's not just my compatibility with them.

21:44It's my view that can they last the journey and what's required to build a business. but also are they going into it in the right business model so for example i've had a scenario before where i've really liked a business and a founder but i believed that for them to be successful they should immediately bring a right-hand person alongside them straight away and if you know again you can see that in business so for example you take someone innocent right you had adam richard and john okay so you have amazing singular founders but you also have multiple founders and that's probably one of the best examples where multiple founders you know you know one plus one one plus one plus one probably actually equal five or ten in those guys because absolute powerhouses richard was an amazing marketeer did all the hand waving and pr and stuff like that adam was this commercial powerhouse incredibly strategic and then you had john who operationally um and as the coo was just you know out this you know out this world and i can tell you now having worked with someone like john wright he would make any footsie 100 ceo look average phenomenal guy right so that's the thing i'd say is that you know you know don't be scared as a founder to think about actually i want to start this business but actually surround yourself by exceptional people and obviously some of the businesses i go into are already at a certain scale and i know immediately the criteria is then to look at the senior leadership team and say right do i believe the senior leadership team you know a fit for you know fit for this business not not just today but also the journey you know wants to go on to just quickly what are some of those character traits you look for because these guys as they're hiring can start you know further lower down look for those on the scene or just like of what you'd say is a great leader like what are the specific things you look for in terms of the um yeah like the character yeah in like a john wright for example yeah so i think some of the leadership qualities are i think first of all kind of that motivating and inspiring is an incredibly important one another important bit for me is sharing the spoils so i don't like working with a founder who wants to retain all the equity and doesn't want to share it with the other people they're asking to work and run through brick walls for them so i think that's another really important thing for me um i mean being a real people person is an important thing to me so i always want a founder to be able to be really empathizing you know and to be able to build a team and also recognize actually some of those people are probably going to do a better job than they will even the early days and even like if you take Vita Coco I got to a point where I brought in an amazing guy called Tim Reese and I was like he was he did he came in as MD and when I was CEO and within three weeks he was doing a better job than I was previously running that business day in day out so you recognize at certain stages the business is you know what's what's what's the right thing to do and one of the most important traits for me is having a founder who will actually listen and again I have had a couple examples where I've got this wrong where they always know best and actually you know and what people think is that people think I'm just sitting here I'm an expert I'm some sort of oracle I'm not actually I kind of I'm using my experiences don't forget a lot of the advice I give is where I've got things hugely wrong as well um it's not just where I've done things really well it's where I've got huge things hugely wrong and you know I've had situations before where I've just had founders who've just gone, don't agree with you, or us, or if we're on a collective board meeting, something like that, and they've just gone ahead and done stuff.

25:02And I'll be honest, sometimes they've proved us wrong, which is amazing, and I love nothing better than that. But other times, it's then ended up in a real problem. So I think it's really important having a founder that listens. What else would I say on the founder thing? I think that's the main stuff on the founder stuff. And then, should I cover, Dan, do you want to cover something at the 15? Yeah, because I think, yeah, loads of people are going to be. you that this 15 evolves by the way so i think um and i'll just give you some snippets where i am today on this is that i think the other 15 for me is i've got to so i think first of all if i'm going to invest in anything and by the way just bear in mind i'm somebody who does it as much as passion as i do for the financial side which a lot of people struggle to get their head around but it's more for me because i enjoy what i'm doing and people like yeah whatever it's all about making money it actually isn't for me and it definitely isn't actually that does cause some issues when I work with some private equity and VC companies because there's a slight clash there but you know I just I do it because I enjoy the journey I enjoy pissing off the big companies being a thorn in their size disrupting them annoying them etc but the criteria of the 15 are typically are things like I have to believe the category can scale right you have to believe it can scale I think that's really important for one you guys to consider yeah because you might be able to get become famous in one category but if that category is so small you can only get to a certain scale it's then what do you do then because it's also very difficult to find a buyer as well in that sort in that sort of market um i always look for those kind of on trend growing categories so for example i'm involved in a brand called bio and me which you may or may not be fully familiar with i believe and i know it's quite a bold statement but i think gut health because your whole your whole wellness starts here right mental state everything like that everything through there and i actually think gut health is going to be bigger than protein as a macro trend globally um so you know bio me is is an example of a category and we've got health i think it's really going to move so i you know i would i would go into that other important things are i talked about senior leadership team earlier on um i would also then say the number one thing like so people when i expect going to a business now will almost expect so you know your number one question you'll get is what sort of size you are what's your growth level it's not the that's not the most important thing for me the number one thing i look at financially is gross margin rate okay biggest advice to you guys would be start you know in food and drink and there's no there's no such thing as atypical but in food and drink even from day one try and have a business where you've got and just i'm not trying to be uh patronizing or condescending but there are different different definitions of gross margin right so when i'm talking about gross margin it's your customer it's your price to a retailer minus all your trade discounts promotion gondola end fees and stuff like that minus your cost of goods including logistics okay everybody plays loads of different things by hiding logistics then if they're spending a load of money on amazon or ricardo they'll drop that into consumer marketing trust me everybody's rising up to that these days right so when i'm talking about true gross margin it's that definition but really try and have a business that from you know that you're making a 30 to 40 gross margin okay because if you don't it's very difficult to attract investment past that seed stage because you can probably you can probably hoodwink a few crowd platform investors or a few high net worths but once you start dealing with more institutional and more robust investors you need that 34 percent mark 30 40 margin if you don't guess what you then don't have the ability to basically build the team invest in overheads invest in marketing and discretionary spend right and you just spend your life continually you know chasing your tail and having to fundraise and fundraise and don't get me wrong particularly over the inflation repair we had recently and my god it's so challenging for startups to put inflation through like the big corporates have but if you've got a business that's making 15 to 25 percent margin it is a bloody tough world to be in but also when you come to sell the business if you want to get an attractive multiple suddenly you've got a business making 35 40 45 gross margins your your buy universe will be dramatically different because people are suddenly excited because you're making good margins.

29:08Now, I'm going to also just caveat that, or sorry, I'm going to add to that, but also say that if you'd asked me three years ago, what about bottom line, Giles? What about EBITDA? Don't worry about that. As long as the gross margins are okay, that's all right. The world is changing, right? The cost of borrowing is now a fortune. Private equity companies have typically wanted to threefold their money in three years. You're now going to start hearing four to five times because the cost of borrowing so much, right people are also sick of seeing businesses that are three five six eight years but still losing money again choose your strategy right carefully because sometimes it is still right to break even or lose money but i tell you what today you really want to be in a situation where try and get to break even or EBITDA as quickly as you can because again investors will literally flood to those businesses because they see them being responsible and being them being much more sustainable.

30:03Any other criteria I'd highlight on there? I talked about gross margins and stuff like that. I think actually one of the, and this is actually a really important one, is that I look at a brand when I'm investing in it and say, can it be famous in one category? Be really careful about trying to be everything to everybody and conquer multiple categories, because particularly if you're looking for an exit at some point, and I'll give you the exact example on the bet on the let me tell you when we when we sold bear so bear we had we were in bear yo-yos which is in fruit snacking we then had three different product ranges in baby and then also we had alphabites which is the cereal in in in obviously in cereals when we sold that business we were turning over i can tell you exact number 23.7 million and um basically am yo-yos was 18 million of that 23 million okay so actually we've done 5 million innovation outside of yo-yo so pretty impressive right we went through the process of originally it was raising raising money but then we ended up actually selling selling the business we went through that process and what amazed us was a number of things i think it's quite it's quite important i share or quite insightful for me to share this with you first of all at 24 million turnover virtually all the big global players were interested so like you know the next phase union leaders of this world etc because we were too small even at 23 24 million right now there is some differences in that year today and today because some of these guys have incubated divisions and stuff like that but you know you've got to realize for these guys on the big the big companies you'd be a pimple on their backside right they've got to bring in a business that's they only want to look at stuff it's like typically between 40 to 70 million and they have to believe they can take it to quarter of a billion and a half a billion because otherwise it doesn't impact on their P &L, right?

31:50So I think that's the first thing I say. I think as well, though, is that when you're also looking at, you know, you're kind of your buyer universe and who's going to buy you, is when we sold bear and we got all this big portfolio, we had five people at the last round and all five were only interested in one thing. And they said to us, right, I know you've got this portfolio, but we just want to talk to you about yo-yos. We are only buying this business for yo-yos because you're the hero in that category i know you're the number one kids lunchbox item and you're also now the uk's um number one lunchbox item but tell us what we need to do because i want we want yo-yos to be 100 million what is household penetration or what is frequency of purchase or what does that need to go to and what i'm trying to articulate here is be really be careful trying to you know because every you know it's like for example on Vita Cocoa as well.

32:43Coconuts, right. Let's do chips. Let's do oil. Let's do this. Let's do that. We can take on the whole world, right? Whereas now, today, 95 % of the turnover is in coconut water. It's the highest performing beverage stock on the NASDAQ today, right? Be famous. Don't be jack of all, master of none. Be really, really famous in one or two categories only, yeah? Because people only want to buy businesses where they're hero products, yeah? And it's classic is just to say let's just if i pluck out a number right if you've got a business turning over 30 million but you've got one range doing 20 million or you've got a business turning over 40 million where you've got four ranges doing 10 million i bet you you'll sell the business more at 30 million with that range doing 20 million than you will the business of 40 million with 10 million each because people want brands or propositions they can properly scale and that's clearly if you do want to scale it because you don't sorry if you do want to sell it you don't have to sell it you can flip it to pe and vc and go to again you can put it on stock market but just obviously go into that very open-minded well you might keep it for the next generation so i'm only just telling you if you have an appetite to sell the business i love that josh you said you know fake famous well not famous sorry does the category scale in of itself be be the hero in that category like don't spread yourself too thin focus what are your my sort of curiosities bubbling as i've got to ask What are your thoughts on these vegan meat brands that are, well, they've stormed in, I suppose.

34:15And, you know, ultimately that category is becoming famous. There are going to be one or two players. What are your thoughts on that? Actually, can I, before I, I'm going to want, I really want, can I just, one thing actually, which is actually the most important thing I should have said on the top 15, right? at the end of the day on the top 15 if i'm looking at any business how is that brand or service delivering a different or a significantly better proposition to the consumer that is the number one thing right it has to be about that right that's the number one thing how is this business going to excel brand going to excel to the consumer and what's going to make it different from what else is out there or else if they're creating something that's totally new why is it going to work that is the biggest thing and i spend hours drilling people on that because it's so important because everybody it's like coconut water everybody jumped in on the back of via cocoa at one point in time there were 74 brands in the uk there are now five brands in the uk today all right 70 odd have gone fallen by the wayside right so so what so what was it again it's like how are you gonna be different yeah how are you gonna basically how are you so so why is your brand going to be successful you know versus everything else that's in the marketplace or importantly if you're going after a new need state why is a consumer going to basically gravitate towards what you're now trying to offer and do um and you know again i can use loads of different examples of you know how you know how you know how different brands have done that if you know yeah any examples always um so you know for example is if you take let's taste i mean let's just take something like pip and nut for example right and it's this is a slightly different way of answering it but you know if you take pip and nut because i was like look at the end of the day okay how much can you really scale is nut butters that exciting and stuff like that well a number of things actually expanded outside nut butters with confec she's doing nut butter cups you've seen what reese's have done we've seen what what justins have done in the us so there's one branch of innovation i can see right tick the box that's amazing but what pip dub was did was she said well actually look i'm not trying to be whole earth sun pat on meridian actually i think peanut butter or nut butters is an amazing commodity that shouldn't just be enjoyed on toast we can use ingredients we can use it in baking we can use it in smoothies and all this and create this whole different way suddenly i was like i can now see this because you can actually you can bring into a consumer lifestyle in so many more exciting and better ways and i can see how this is going to work as an example and i you know pip was a pip for me is probably my flagship and most my best example of a founder you know she's to work with she's incredible she's just become a mom as well and she's just the most beautiful person to work with um i've got a board meeting literally with her there afterwards and you know if you ever want a mentor who's actually in the midst of it at the moment you cannot get better than someone like pippa murray who's at pippa nut so we've got probably about five to six minutes left i want to go to that right so quickly so two things i want to go through my rant is your quick rant on that and your rant on b corp because i think that's interesting yeah so so first the vegan meat because ultimately you said these things you're looking for is is the category going to yeah so right i wrong so i get frustrated but i am it's all linked together so there's things that that i find difficult in the marketplace today hype valuations these ridiculous valuations i really struggle with i think those days are going by the way so businesses that just value themselves at you know don't get me wrong not to one one and a half million i get it because you're building for the future but when i'm seeing businesses that are doing four or five million turnover but value themselves that you know 10 to 20 times revenue i'm like ridiculous because i'm like majority of these when you're actually going to try and sell it you're going to sell it probably for between one and a half to two and a half times revenue how are you going to make your money back on that and all these are ending in car crashes right there's a few notable exceptions but honestly the high valuations but because of the cost of borrowing going forward i think those days are going to be going to be reduced what you then lead me on to right is that what i and again i've got to be careful here because i would if i was the founder would i do the same yes but i think you just be careful on it a little bit is that i really so there is a massive plant-based trend we all buy that right but that doesn't basically really mean that that plant-based trend is then going to exclusively going to be all about meat or you know going to be about you know meat alternatives and that category i hate saying it is an absolute car crash you can you can see it you know you can see obviously the latest wicked chef you know with sam with brothers now pulling out of the manufacturing and shutting down you know the staff there you've seen what's happening beyond meek and others but you know i really struggle with that because there's all these people saying this can be the next big thing but ultimately most of these businesses are making single digit or early teens gross margins you've also got scenarios whereby you know i think consumers are being hoodwinked because it's being positioned as a meat alternative but when you look at the nutritional panel it's more like a chemistry set and there isn't actually any nutritional benefit in there at all and it's not about raw state natural ingredients which is what really is driving the whole plant-based trend or one of the key things, as well as I know there's carbon emissions and stuff like that.

39:08So I get a little bit there. And I'm honest with you, I'm a little bit the same on the no and low alcohol category. And I know there's some people in this room, I'm going to set on people outside, right? Just because you don't want to drink alcohol doesn't mean you want a non-alcoholic equivalent, right? I have a business like Dolphins, which is a soft drinks business, which is purely fruit and carbonated water, juggernautting. Why? Because people are switching out of alcohol into things like back into soft drinks it doesn't have to be i just don't want a zero beer or you know i want to you know have a zero spirit so i think i respect all these businesses but i think sometimes their marketing is too acute and almost like slightly arrogant that they think that this is now the be all end of this house we're going to be and i think you've just got to try and do it in a slightly more balanced way and then you can tell i'm getting older by the way because i started ranting and this is what you do when you get older you start ranting and it's not good um the b corp thing if only you get the grocer there's a bigger article and i have a look at the bigger article it's a really interesting thing i love b corp by the way that's the number one thing for me to say right i'm a massive fan of that none of my businesses are b corp certified i'm all about purpose i'm all about business for good right but i also know that right now today they are and i've actually they've used my headline which i've said look the b corp is at a crossroads right um it is way too easy to get certified as a B Corp today and it's becoming too blasé you can get a consultant to come in your business and you could be the most unpurposed business but somebody can manipulate the business change a few things on the articles change a few business practices and you'll get to the magic 80 that's not right that is absolutely not if you and if you look at what B Corp stands for I believe that they really need to look at the criteria and it needs to be at quite exactly the words I've used needs to be absolutely ball busting to get your business you can there's something wrong if you can just continue for majority of businesses which haven't started on the purpose-based route it's something wrong if you can just go in and tweak a few things and then become b court certified you know b court certified is making massive changes completely changing your supply chain because you know there's a better way to do things for the planet the society the people around you and stuff like that and that's this article talks about that and i'm just pretty vocal on that and Pippa Murray's actually on the chair of the B Corp and she's actually, there's a lot they're talking about this heavily so I'm hoping they're going to bring in not just very strict criteria to qualify but also then to sustain because sustain is, I hate the word sustain by the way, if we sustain as a planet, we're screwed, right?

41:42We've got to make change. We've got, forget carbon neutral. How do you get carbon negative, right? We've got, if we sustain this the way we are in the moment, the whole thing's going to implode, right? We've got to get better and better and better and that's what B Corp need to drive with putting the bar up higher and higher. Hey guys, quick one. The biggest festival in Challenge of Foon Drink is heading and coming very, very soon. Bread and Jam is literally at the Glastonbury for Foon Drink rounds. It is so banging. They're in the eighth year. Everyone's going to be there. It's going to be a great time.

42:11I'm actually doing a live podcast with the wonderful Giles Brooke. 18th and 19th of July, Business Design Centre in Islington, London. You've got to grab a ticket. There's opportunities to do huge pitches, meet the right buyers, Ocado, Selfridges, Tesco, Sainsbury's, so much more. And it's just good crack. It's great fun. And if you want a ticket, head to breadandjamfest.com. But I'll also put a link in the show notes. So please do yourself a favour and grab yourself a ticket. What's the danger of more and more? Because basically it's this magical 80 number, isn't it, that brands need to get to?

42:42Is there a danger of more and more brands? I'll be honest with you. There was a day where, so two years ago, if somebody, if I went into a room or if I got a deck that said B Corp certified, I was like, oh, interested. I'm now a bit blasé about it. So I'm like, well, of course you are, because it's really easy. But actually, you get on the skin of some businesses and you actually, do you know what? This is actually, you do the road test on it. And actually it is a true purpose-led business. I think the danger is it becomes really blasé and it doesn't hold the value that it should do. And I think it's really important because B Corp is an incredibly special movement.

43:12I just think they need to really, you know, and it's not criticizing them at all. It's more about where it's got to. And they've now got to kind of evolve and go on to the next level. I mean we could talk about that for days of my after to do podcast part two for that final question Giles and then we'll go to some some questions from the room but I ask this to all guests or most guests that come on the podcast but I always think there's someone always knows one thing right so it's not just hard work I know we're talking at the beginning about you working super hard like everyone in this room could do 100 hour weeks there's got to be that other thing that extra one percent what is something like that you know that not many people else do that you think is responsible for all the brands like what's the one thing almost that one ingredient right that one that one extra ingredient that gives you that one percent edge that compounds basically yeah i think it's kind of a mixture of three but i'm gonna try we can do three yeah i think the big thing for me right it's it's obsession right you've got to be careful because obsession can be unhealthy as well right you have got to be absolutely neurotic about why you're how can you deliver the best possible product or service for a consumer?

44:18And you've got to obsess about that day in, day out. Because if you don't obsess about it and you get a bit blase about it, you won't be successful. I think it's really important to do that. I think also you've got to be lucky, by the way. And a lot of what's happened with me is luck as well. It's not just skill, guile, judgment. Certainly not academia, I can tell you that, because I'm not an academic, by the way, in any sort of means. But I think also, and this is an important one for me, it's got to involve passion you've got to be passionate about what you do right and if anybody's in the room and they've done a great job that's paying them incredibly well but they're not passionate about it change jobs just don't do it and that's why i guess most of us i think hopefully 90 % of the room are here today is do it you know he's gonna do it you know i remember when i left i was i was at coca-cola and i left coke and i went to innocent and i remember the guy at coke and this was the club i won't give you the other story from the same bloke which I will actually, if somebody's heard me on a podcast, there's two, can I do two quick break stories?

45:14The guy said to me, are you sure you want to leave Coke? Because you only get to work for this business once. And I was like, how fucking arrogant can that be, right? And by the way, this is the same person who, I don't know if you remember, back in about, I don't know, the 90s, there was a big thing called Grey Imports. Basically, lots of retailers started bringing in Coca-Cola from Pepsi from the continent because they could get it cheaper. And so it all kicked off a price wall. and anyway one of the convenience retailers had been had done a joint venture one big supermarkets and then looked at the relative cost pricing and seen the difference and gone i'm really angry that's ridiculous we're going to start buying grey stock because i can get it cheaper unless you give me the same price that customer and the guy the guy i was with who was i won't mention his name but i was sat on a table and i literally slid under the table because his words to this this buyer he said to the buyer said look i don't mean to be rude but you know that company you're comparing yourself to they probably spill more in a year than you sell so you're not going to get that pricing and i was just like nah i'm done i can't do this anymore and you know so that was just that was just absolutely you know when you have one of those moments and i knew that was it but the reason i was going to mention that i love coke by the way and coke was an amazing business and i've got so many friends still there but i always harbored ambitions to do my own thing and just also the reason I made the change was that I got in my you know you talked about how you know whether it's pain or fear what did I get in my head I knew that if I jumped to innocent at the time and that all fell apart and I couldn't prove myself in that entrepreneurial world my backstop was I I I believed I was good enough I could always go back to what I was doing before and that's what gave me the courage to make to make the jump and do that and that's the big thing for me that's always it's always driven me is that I always think I can revert back if there's an issue amazing um i think we've got a couple of minutes for questions if anyone's got any here we go go for it mate

47:16so beyond gut health jam jam we sit we sit in the same business on the jam business no but but outside jam i mean are there other things you think are kind of inherently ripe for for disruption that just have the right kind of category dynamics for you? So one of the real challenges I've got at the moment, right, is that... I'm going to answer that a couple of ways. I normally look across to other markets, this national market, to see what's going on. And the US is a good example, actually. But actually, the next Coconut Water or the next Gut Health brand, if you start looking at other categories which are really starting to scale and get big in the US, they're actually art money.

47:56Outside of Gut Health is probably a big one, but actually a typically you go across to something i don't know if you guys have been to expo west which is the big big big food and drink expo in the in the u.s but you go there and you come around there and say right those five categories the next big ones to scale investors and industry experts are struggling to see what the next ones are and this is a bit we're trying to avoid all these niche ones that get to a certain point but then kind of land fizzle out um i do think you know where the cbd and all that sort of stuff is that world and that whole mood and that mental side of things i think it's gonna be big stuff there but i think the bigger thing is on the gut health is it's not just a food and drink you're seeing what people like tim spectra are doing you see the numbers behind stuff like zoe and stuff like that i think there's opportunities on lifestyle stuff that's outside of food and beverage that if you're an entrepreneur that's been in food and beverage actually there's ways that i think i could be really successful and find a passion to do things which aren't intrinsically food and drink but actually affiliated with that i think well my time is off i think we're actually out of time so there's just one more question no I tell you I'm gonna I've got a meeting to go to in about 20 minutes but if anybody's got any questions for me I'll hang around here I'm happy to hang around just outside because I think something else will be going on here for like 10 or 15 minutes and if anybody's got any questions they can come and talk to me amazing thank you so much Giles appreciate it that's nice of me

49:15thank you so so much for listening to the podcast I really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much Thank you.