How Bio & Me Scaled from £2M - 20M in 4 Years (it's easier than you think)

0:00It is astonishing, it's ridiculously brilliant quite how supportive the startup community is. I mean, look at what you're doing, Dan, like, you know, how far you've come in the last few years. Like the amount people are so open. I mean, I'm telling all my secrets today, but like people are just really, really trying to help each other.

0:25so i read somewhere where you said linking purpose with exit and valuation talk to me about that because in my head they're too there's a dichotomy those things and i think there's a lot of waffle about people saying that they want to not exit their business and build a brand but like let's just cut the bullshit like everyone wants an exit at some point do you mean yeah i so i think that was at the um bread and jam investor festival last week and i i suppose i had two really simple points to make one of which is the importance of purpose and secondly how actually if you do run your business the right way you know with an eye to exit valuation at the end, that actually helps you deliver your purpose because you need a well run business in order to deliver your purpose.

1:23And I used a couple of examples and I think we are one, I'll talk about our cinema. I think Pippa Nutt, what she's doing, not only how she's always run the business, but now with the foundation, et cetera, it's fantastic. So I suppose that we talk about purpose and by the way maybe I should just you know here's one of my subtle packs Dan but for people who don't know us then here we are by one of me we do granolas and keffirs the key thing about us is my co-founder Dr. Megan Rossi she's the gut health doctor so if we're talking about purpose she gives us our purpose you know when I first met Megan six seven years ago you know she's one of if you're the leading expert on gut health in the country so our purpose was always there from the get-go and I think it's one of our kind of not secret advantages if you like is we've always known what gets us out of bed in the morning we've always known what we would never compromise on you know it's lovely Dan the team's up to about 18 people now, you know, and, you know, they join because, you know, they want to work on a gut health brand.

2:34There's no confusion about it. You know, Megan still designs all the products herself, still does the social media, et cetera. You know, what really, really gets her going is gut health education. So the fact that right now, I mean, we've been at this for five, six years, you know, Gut Health Fibre is really having a moment now. It's fantastic. If we're just talking about weight loss, et cetera, the fact that Fibre is like the natural GLP-1, et cetera, it's all coming through now is just wonderful. So we've always had that purpose and it drives us. And honestly, it gets me out of bed and I flipping love it.

3:18And we've got to run our business profitably. So if it was three, four years ago, Dan, when we last spoke, we were probably about, I don't know, 2 million turnover, maybe three. We're now, our run rate, so to use a lovely phrase, our quarterly annualized run rate is now at about 20 million. So we've just sort of got up to that mark. So when you say run rate 20 million, that means you've got 20 mil. What does that mean? So the last quarter, the last three months, if you just extrapolated that out over a year, it would be 20 million. so that's what our so i think uh basically means that's how much dough you've got got left until you run out essentially no no no no our our so if you look at our annual sales last year they were about sort of 13 14 million but we left the last quarter we we exited at a 20 million run rate um because what you want to see is quarter on quarter growth so you grow throughout the year so we did about yeah 13 14 million sales total last year and we exited quarter four at 20 million run rate when you say exit like not exit the business just left that finish no no no just no no no now we crack on with quarter one this year and yeah so so so so sales are really good you know and that links back to the purpose you know so our whole raison d 'etre is to be the very best for gut health you know so long as you've got the right trend and it's wonderful seeing gut health have its moment now, hopefully, you know, that that gives you your sales.

4:48But obviously, you know, then you've got to run the business the right way. I think with the team, it's just so important. If I've learned one thing in the last few years is, I mean, again, Dan, when we last met, I probably knew every fact in the business, the sales rate for every customer, the cost of every product. I was still doing the consumer emails myself, you know, I had done every job in the business. now I sort of get a little bit pleased about how much I've forgotten you know when people ask me questions and I don't know the answer I rather like it because it means somebody else in the business does so you know some of those things about um well we've just we just finished a two-day exec you know and Emma our commercial director she was talking about new listings that we'd won I didn't know about them you know she was talking to me about some competitive price changes in the marketplace you know a couple of our competitors on granolas put their prices up I didn't know about that you know it's it's and it pleases me because before you know it was not like I was a one-man band we were probably four or five people back then and we all knew everything and now we've sort of grown the different parts of the business and you know they you know ops runs their part finance runs theirs marketing runs theirs it's wonderful like seeing people grow So, and that lovely word about delegation where of course you delegate and you've got to trust, but also there is that piece about trust is earned.

6:13So, you know, if we've got to trust people, they've got to prove it as well. Know their game, know their numbers, know what they're talking about so that they know more than I do. And it's brilliant. I mean, honestly, just, and again, you know, linking that, you know, so to build the business to be valuable, you've got to run the team in the right way, which links back to purpose. The other thing I think, Dan, you've got to do is at some stage, and we are six years now, but you've got to move into profit. And not big profit, but if you want to be a sustainable business, that means two things. That's the environmental piece and it's the financial piece.

6:55You know, if you want to, if we want to exist forever. What have you done? Yeah, but also linking that to the exit is like, people want to see well this is what giles says they want to see ebit dar now so you need to start thinking about that say let's not beat around the bush you want an exit in four five six years um what have you been doing from a cost perspective a team perspective a marketing perspective to dance the dance between growing your business and also making profit because that's a delicate dance? It is a delicate dance. And I'll come on and answer your question, Dan, in a sec. But it really is important because Megan wants to deliver the best gut health products to consumers.

7:41You can't lose money forever. You can't keep selling equity forever. So if we're going to keep delivering those, you do need to move into profit. When you say selling equity, is that raising money? yeah shares exactly so for the first five years when we lost money we funded that by selling selling shares in the company selling equity um right and now we haven't done done that for about two and a half years and we moved into profit halfway through last year not but you know small profit like so all the extra margin we make we want to invest into growth into marketing into the team etc but but just enough so that we are now in the black a sustainable business you know we can keep going going going forwards and I tell you one of the things that pleased me the most because I thought the team might be able because we're completely open with the team about it all I thought they might be a bit oh no I'm not going to have as much to spend on marketing I'm not going to have enough to spend on MPD or whatever you know with the customers whatever it might be actually they loved it because they get it they're like of course like it's fine in an investment phase to to raise funds and then invest and and and you know lose money for x number of years but they know that to be a real business you do need to move into the black at some point so you know and it's it means for them you know it's sustainable their jobs are more secure you know you know and that at that level they were really really into it it was wonderful so So if you are listening.

9:12So what did you do to make, to get it profitable then? Yeah, sorry, I haven't taken a long time to answer your question. So growing really helps. And I think one of the things I've enjoyed over the last few years, I know, Dan, we had a chat about Comans before, but as you scale, working with your Coman partners, because they've taken a big risk. Just Comans, Coman, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we all the different products we make, we make through expert manufacturers, some down in Dorset, some in Snowdonia, some up in Yorkshire. And as you grow, you know, that enables everybody to buy packaging cheaper, ingredients cheaper, run longer, more efficient shifts.

9:57So working out how the benefits of that, you know, some of it comes to us so that, you know, we're doing all this time of inflation. we haven't had to put cost prices through like competition had to. Some of it goes to the co-man to reward them because I think one thing founders sometimes forget, but those co-manufacturers, they take some of the biggest risks on you. I remember our very first granola manufacturer, he put all that time and effort in based on just meeting Megan and myself. He went about 70 grand into the red. if we'd gone pop after the first two or three months he'd have put so much time and so much money in so you know they they deserve a reward when you yeah how did you convince him to put that much money in oh dan it was me and megan wasn't it of course like you know and he could see i don't know i well i'll tell you what i did i got in my car and drove down to see him and i think you know just good old-fashioned going and meeting people you know we we had a recipe we took him the recipe he talked to us about how he could improve it you know it is a very personal relationship and i you know i think yeah i mean love your love your co-manufacturers i say um so so working with them in order to share share the benefits of growth really helps um you know on the customer side we invest a lot with customers on customer specific mpd uh we invest a lot in kind of in-store activation.

11:28But one thing we've been able to reduce is our promotions. So as our rate of sales gone up, you can reduce the percentage we spend on promotions each year, whether that's doing a few less promotions or shallower promotions, so the discount is less deep. You know, finessing that, it's one of the things Giles, Giles Brooke, who's our chair, he's very hot on is, you know, you can, there is, you know, if not millions of pounds, there's hundreds of thousands of pounds there in terms of costs the business what are the other little things you can finesse because what's like you what size is the brand now if you don't mind me asking 20 million 20 million okay so yeah so fuck me that's insane so what are the other so so i like the idea of just being very supple and delicate with how you you know you do more promotions less promotions yeah more shallow ones um the co-manufacturer like sharing the money with them having them on board what are the other little fine fine things that you've just picked up through experience so one that we haven't done but but but but you know people can think about is is adjusting your products over time so i think shrinkflation is a famous famous thing but you know we've seen quite a lot of brands who are in smaller packs right now so that that is um an option we we've chosen not to do it but that's just conning the customer though i mean although consumer in my head it is i mean i mean you're faced you know with i mean if you think back again over the last four years dan our cost of goods have gone up about 30 to 40 percent um think back to the energy crisis the ukraine war you know i had no idea quite how important ukraine was to the world economy in terms of grains etc you know it's put it's put a lot of brands including us in a very difficult position now we we were lucky because we were growing so damn fast we've gone from like two three million to twenty you know huge economies of scale that meant we could offset but you know honestly i don't know would would a consumer rather spend a pound a pack more or have a pack that was 15 20 smaller like you know there are there are real choices there to be made what you shouldn't do is hide it you know if if you do need to go smaller you need to be transparent about that but yeah i like the idea of honest no just like honest marketing fuck boring workshops introducing hungary's 10x challenger brand workshops 10x creativity beats 10x budgets.

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14:36We've run these for Naked Wines, Vitacoco and Corson Press. They all absolutely loved it. Each workshop is littered with a luscious mix of hand-picked, delectable and delicious goods, pastries, croissants and loads more. You'll feel like a pampered guest at Hungry Hotel of Creativity. If you're interested and you're interested for your team, please DM me on LinkedIn or Instagram. it's like honest marketing is um yeah it's a james it's james smith thing which is being just brutally honest with your consumers and then again i've talked about with rory and there was a restaurant in in um where we did one of the supper clubs actually down in bristol sunny stores guys and legend and he put an email on his newsletter being like it's the last thing i want to do but we are moving to moving to like you know pay pay on your phone with the qr code which I think is the most hideous thing you can do in a restaurant.

15:27It kills every little smidge of soul. But he was honest and he sent it to his newsletter and he was like, this is the situation, mate. We're doing this. And why did he do it? Do you remember? Because just, well, hospitality, obviously the podcast kind of straddles both FMCG and hospitality. But basically hospitality is a raving shit show at the minute in the sense that there's just no money in it at all. Like literally no money. yeah lower staff costs and and actually you know again it's like that's why i'm saying these subtle things because it's the do you have more staff and then buy less quality produce you know so it's that constant thing i love that so promotion finesse shrinkflation finesse what other finesse i mean you can look at if you work your way down the p &l i mean you know so we've done price increases, we've done pack sizing, you can change your ingredients.

16:24Mark, one thing we have done, so Mark, who's our COO, he relentlessly searches the globe for different suppliers of the ingredients to the standards we need. So in each of our products, we've got about 15 different nuts, seeds, fruits, etc. So he can endlessly sort of scouring around trying to find. So changing your suppliers, I hate to say it, suppliers, but sometimes you have to do that. We've done that on packaging. That is just the relentless grind. We did take a look at transport, but crikey, all the energy, et cetera, just try saving money there. It's very, very difficult. So those are the main areas.

17:10And then as you grow, of course, if you look at the team cost. So we've increased our team a lot. I think I said we're up to about 18 people now. But as a percentage on the P &L, because we've grown sales faster, it's coming down. So you're becoming more and more efficient. But growing the team, both in terms of investing in training, growing the size. So we plan to bring another six people in this year. We just brought in three new people. That's how we grow. We need to do more. And that means we need more people. the um giles um vividly i remember him saying that um you know the size of team can be a swinging dick contest when you go around lunch it's like we were at 40 you used to be and giles yeah and giles was saying to me mate he was like he was like you know if i've seen i think he said 60 million pound businesses with eight people i've seen 60 million pound businesses with these mommas maybe slightly off like 70 people and he was like and he used your you guys as a darling example of how you keep costs down when you're based well no he's just saying like you know there's again the whole thing the whole thing with this in challenge of brands is i think there's this this shoreditch houseification of brand building where it's like you want to go into shoreditch house say you've got an office in shoreditch wear your fedora hat tell people how big your team is but you're not actually making any profit and it's just all gumpf whereas giles is like look why don't you go like you guys based up in chester um you know what is au vodka are based out in Wales, source shop based in Nottingham, the overheads are much cheaper.

18:46And as you say, it's that percentage of revenue is fascinating. What were the crucial hires or surprising hires that took you from 2 million when we last spoke to 20 million now? What were the one or two that had a massive impact? Oh, I mean, I'm not sure it is one or two, Dan. But I mean, it is sort of the obvious ones. So we have increased our sales team a lot. So this gives me a great chance to big up a few members of the team, doesn't it? But Emma and the sales team, that's now the largest team in the business. And you'd want it to be, you know, our stage. And I think because we've got this whole broad product range, we've got our granolas and our porridge pots and our overnight oats and our bars, which are all ambient long shelf life products and then we've got our kefirs which are yogurts and drinks in the chiller they're completely different buyers completely different supply chains completely different competitors so for a salesperson to try and think about both categories is quite difficult to be as close as like a brand that just makes one category one product so so we've sort of um we've created a team of chilled specialists and and and and cereal ambient specialist and that's really working for us so interesting i just just on that so giles said to me and this was two years ago now or last year last year was with innovation innovate close to the core so so for so for example when so always innovate close to the core range the example he gave was when you know innocent tried to try to exit to coca-cola and they built all these all these veg pot uh all the soup businesses which is now oh yeah and he was like well that he goes yeah which became bowl and he was like the biggest lesson from that is innovate close to the core if you're going to innovate you know do a different flavor of peanut butter do a different flavor of granola do a different flavor of beer because when you go to exit that's people want to buy that he gave the example of lotus who bought bear bear bear whatever it is um and he was like they're only interested they had they're only interested in the fruit rolls all the other parts of the business they weren't interested so you're a granola business i think it's true yep so if you're a granola business surely it's how come you're going into different categories with in fresh or chilled with different buyers different consumers like what's the what's the why thinking behind that so funnily enough i um it sounds like a list of my recent talks down but i did one at the tesco accelerator event um a couple of weeks ago and we should talk about the role of customers and like amazing what they've been doing um and they asked me to talk about cross-category growth so brands going into other categories and basically my first slide was don't you know unless you absolutely have to uh you know or i'll say it positively if you can achieve all of your hopes and dreams the scale the vision for your brand if you can do all of that through one category, you will make your life so much simpler, way more efficient, you know, back to purpose and valuation.

22:01You know, if you can do your purpose through that one category, you will probably drive it to a higher valuation for just like you were saying about Giles' example with bare snacks. But for us, it was strategically critical to be in two categories. So without doing too much science this is really dr megan's area but you dan as a you know dan the human being there are there are two things you need to do for your gut health one of which is eat more diverse fiber and it's fiber that's really having its moment right now so and that the the fiber the different plant fibers go into your tummy they get broken down um and the the they then feed the bacteria inside your stomach.

22:45And it's most simple. And that has all the associated health benefits, physical, mental, the gut, brain access, etc. And that's what the fibre does. That's what our cereals and our bars does. And then there are fermented products. So in our case, kefir, which have the live and active bacteria in them. So this is where you can sort of top up the bacteria inside you with specific live and active cultures that are known to give specific health benefits so that's what's in our kefirs so if we want to be the leading uk health brand if that's our purpose we've kind of got to be in both we've got to be both feeding the bacteria and topping them up so that's enough no that's that links so just quickly so that links again i love nuance right so that links to what we're saying at the beginning purpose brand purpose with yeah exit and so it's like okay if we are going to go across category is this some is this right for our consumer is that that's essentially what you're saying so if you were to go into fucking i don't know like i think like butter or something like that like that is just that's too much of a crazy distraction but if it aligns with your consumer's shopper mission i.e they're going to go in and And they may be buying, you may be able to see from the data that pre-launching Kefir, that they were going and buying BioME granola and then X other brand Kefir.

24:14So you're like, we may as well go there. Is that essentially what you're saying? I think there may be a slightly different way of looking at it, maybe. I think in terms of going back to purpose, if, you know, that whole thing for us to be, you know. Sorry, I get the purpose bit. but I mean, where I'm trying to sort of bridge this on is how you looked at it through a commercial lens. Because as you said, your talk, yeah, exactly. So I think the choice of which categories we went into came from our purpose. Then once you've decided to go into those two, then you've got to decide, right, how am I going to win?

24:51So what's the consumer looking for in granola? What's the consumer looking for in kefir? What can we do better than our competitors? is it around flavours, is it around health what is going to give us, what's going to justify our space on shelf because we can't just turn up and be the same as somebody else if we're going to be the best at something if we're going to have a small but justifiable premium because of our ingredients, you've got to be doing something better. So I think that's where the consumer piece comes in. The choice of categories i think is more internal purpose driven like what are we all about that's our choice but then when you go there yeah it's like what what is the consumer looking for in those categories and how did you make sure you were better and different um i think that's probably where megan come well from a health point of view that's where megan comes in so she will all you know this is where you know and i love you know all the research that's coming through all the science pointing in the same direction you know she says very similar not exactly the same very similar to what tim specter and the other other songs they're all based on science and the research so she brings that so in the case of our granolas we have more different plant-based fibers than anybody else we've got about 15 others have about six or seven it's that sort of level on the kefir's we have more live and active cultures we've got about 400 billion in ours others have between about 30 to 100 so we just have more um so you can you work it through from the gut health science point of view but then in truth the consumer sort of expects that and they know megan's done done the hard work there what what they want to know is does it taste nice um you know that's you know down we talked about this before but if you're going to be a health brand, you've got to get that balance right between, you know, people will try you because they want the new benefit, the gut health benefit, but they'll keep coming back because you taste nice.

26:57Food should be a pleasure. You know, if you, if you make people compromise on, on taste, you'll lose them. I mean, you know, you'll keep a very small group of consumers who are prepared to compromise, but most they want to, you know, they want the taste and the health at the same time. and and what's the art of managing cross categories across multiple retailers anything you could speak to that bloody hard work uh um yeah i i mean this is i think we started we jumped on this part of the conversation because i was saying how we'd sort of almost not quite but sort of sort of split the sales team in two to have team chilled and team ambient and And, you know, that's really helped.

27:39I, you know, and that's allowed them to be really close to their group of buyers. And I mean, again, it's helpful thinking about this over the last four years. You know, my gosh, have the retailers got into Challenger brands over the last four or five years? I think before that, talking to some of the buyers who, you know, have been in position for quite a long time, They had a real nervousness around challenger brands because they were being let down on a supply point of view all the time. And, you know, brands are making big promises. But there was really only a very small number who delivered, you know, the innocence like you were talking earlier, Goose, Charlie Biggums.

28:19Whereas now I think they realize challenger brands, you know, we're delivering the growth and they can help them differentiate. So, my gosh, have they swung. you know, Sainsbury's had the Future Brands program, Tesco, the Accelerator, Ricardo Roots. I've just become a Roots champion, actually. I'm really excited about it. You know, out of home, Breaks are doing their programs, Accelerate, Co-op's got the Apiary. You know, it's brilliant. Like, oh my gosh, has that, has that. Yeah, I mean, I read a thing the other day saying, well, I've written a piece about it called, and it's a quote by Morgan Housel, who wrote the psychology of money and um like i think the other one some things never change or something really good book and he goes you can only understand the golden ages in retrospect so it's like you know in we we may look back at the 80s in new york like that was the period everyone made loads of money we may but may look back at the you know in um the oils of the you know 1900s the oil whenever we make money in oils i believe in 200 years time people look back and be like especially in the uk this was the greatest time to build a challenge a brand do you know what i mean as we look back at the 90s and say that was the that was the best time for for not for like sort of brit popper music music's gone dead and that's why it really winds me up and people are oh it's so hard it's so hard i'm like mate it's never been easier fifth 20 years ago you didn't have linkedin to just dm a buyer 20 10 years ago you didn't have any of these um i mean when i started money life which was 10 bang on 10 years ago now there was no um none of these programs there wasn't these communities that you know it's it's really hard don't be wrong but it's never been easier and i feel like if you just think this is the golden time this is the golden age you just become way more positive do you know what i mean honestly it's one of my favorite things it's why it's why it's why i was at bread and jam last week and then the tesco event and here like i it is astonishing it's almost you know it's ridiculously brilliant quite how supportive the startup community is.

30:25I mean, look at what you're doing, Dan. Like, you know, how far you've come in the last few years. Like, the amount people are so open. I mean, I'm telling all my secrets today, but like people just, they go a lot, other founders. I mean, I know the unfounders, like then there's ops ones. And, you know, people are just really, really trying to help each other. Because I think the startup, challenger brand, scaling brand, whatever, they know you get far more from helping each other than you do by sort of dragging each other down. It's amazing. Founders, cash is literally king. If you don't have cash in your business, you are going bust, mate.

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31:44Use it to keep inventory moving, fun campaigns or negotiate better supplier terms. You could apply for a revolving line of up to 1 million and you only pay month to month on what you've actually used. It's insane. Credit subject to eligibility and status. Fees and terms do apply. Listen, your favorite challenger brands literally love Mimo. Surreal, hunter and gatherer, nice wine, better nature tempeh and tons more. Learn more and apply at mimohq.com. this guy who owns bocca del lupo banging italian in in um london he's he's like part of the cambridge tech community he's like a billionaire don and he basically said it's the idea of coopertition so it's competition and cooperation together and i feel like you're against each other but you're also actually helping each other out i noticed this when we did um a supper club low rise beer sat right next to local beer my two mates they're having a chocolate pudding and a couple of beers they're literally competitors but they're having jokes and banter like it's so sick on the on the secrets so we've done that we've done the fine finesses of how you cut profit sorry made profit by cutting costs yeah yeah yeah stop losing money what are the big one to three levers you did to hit 20 mil first thing second thing what are the subtle finesse nuances that helps you hit 20 mil let's start with sort of the big rocks then we can move to the pebbles oh dan you don't ask half some questions i uh sorry i i mean here's what comes to into my mind so i suppose number one is our ranges so if i you know thinking back four years again, we probably had about, I don't know, eight, nine, 10 SKUs.

33:37We've now got over 40. So, you know, getting that range done, you know, has undoubtedly been a big part of our growth. I think, honestly, one of the best bits of advice I can just, just love your customers and get really close to your customers. You know, just, we have had such, well, we have had such support and you know to emma and the sales team's credit honestly i think we've just worked very very hard you know i might say harder than they know than it is a bit of a competition so you know in order to to get great results to the retailers so that they want to support us you know it's a it's a virtuous circle if you get it right and we worked really hard at that and i would i would say to early startups focus on that more than pure play marketing um so so when when just that's let's walk into the sort of fields of nuance here the core play marketing versus getting close to your customer how are they different yeah so so i think probably the easiest way to explain it is i would just stay as close to the point of sale as you possibly can at the start.

34:52So anything you can do to influence your rate of sale, build your brand at the point of sale is going to be more efficient at the start. Whereas the further away you go, so, you know, billboards, TV, radio, social media, well, social can sort of, you can get very close to point of purchase as well. But, you know, the further away you go for the point of purchase, the bigger the brand you really need to be already in order to make that work. So with our marketing, which would be the third big lever, which is led by Mike, we stayed really, really close. So one of the things we love the most is when we can do what they call free FSDUs, free standing display units the big bits of cardboard that you can put your stock in because that lets you do an advert on one side and your stock in the middle i mean that is the dream startup marketing where if you can do that and you're getting and you're getting secondary space as well yeah i mean just incredible it's like a triple triple whammy what's so okay so so this is a dan so you know when you talk about nuances and money you know do you know what like you know a couple of hundred of those costs like or you know if you want to get into three four hundred tescos just what the car the cardboard costs about 15 20 000 pounds like it's mad how much they cost so that's a big investment but you'll get it back because of the incremental sales whereas if you do 20 000 pounds worth of billboards around london you know maybe but on the other hand maybe not okay this is beautiful so proximity to purchase uh is a big rock any other big rocks so so we've done ranging we've done sales send close to your customers and i think number three is is the marketing investment but but keep it as close to the point of sale you know i don't know if we got sort of almost like it's like almost sort of performance marketing versus pure brand building you know i heard the um i've forgotten his name rather embarrassingly but the founder from olipop in the states you know he probably being a bit provocative but he was saying you shouldn't be doing consumer you know pure play broadcast media until you're over 100 million you know like you know really it's more like to use one set of tactics to build the brand and then another set of tactics to maintain it and that broad scale media is almost more maintenance than it is building.

37:33Maintenance versus building. That's such a gorgeous way of putting it. It wasn't my line. Yeah, yeah, but anyway, fuck it. I mean, everything's bastardized, isn't it? I think it's a David Bowie quote. The only art I'll ever study is the art I conceal off. Everything's fucking. I tell you what, I should credit him now because I'm lucky enough, one of our investors, he's an old Procter & Gamble friend of mine, Greg Jackson from Octopus Energy, and he was talking to me. actually he was talking to me about people and the kinds of people you build you you bring in who who build brands versus maintain them whether it's you know or the finance or the sales or the operations whatever it might marketing whatever it might be the people who build are different to the ones who then maintain you know it's a different mindset 100 100 so okay and then so sorry it's late in the day i'm a little bit tired um the you said yeah yeah well yeah it may not feel sound like it but my eyes are a bit fucked um so yeah so we said and then just go back to the so proximity of purchase totally get when you said getting closer to the customer that specifically that is just being closer to the buyer that is being understanding what their goals are is that creating more specific mpd for them or is it what is that yeah i think at the start um the truth is it probably is all about your buyer um yeah buyer and supply chain you know just you know a little love to supply chain people goes a long way really does and getting that right and not letting um people down on that is is hugely important um but then i think we've learned over the years the benefits of extending your network inside um the customers so you know the ranging people so you know the the buyer will decide which brands to have but the ranging person will decide which stores to go into etc and the demographics yeah you know you will remember it's really really um you know our rates of sale are incredibly different you know there'll be some stores where we'll sell 60 70 packs of granola a week and others where we'll sell you know three or four it's incredible I did not understand the differences it's it's amazing so ranging people are really important merchandising people who do sort of the in-store point of sale you know even finance people just but also you know getting to know some more senior people we've been lucky enough to meet some of the directors you know they the i think most customers are really good at they empower the buyers the teams the commercial teams they make the decisions but having the strategic support of more senior people directors really helps you know just knowing that they're there they've got the support they understand you know the gut health journey the importance for them you know megan goes in and does talks to sort of for the staff and for you know and often you know like at a director's um summer away days or something like that and it's it's really helpful to have their support amazing so that's those are sort of the big rocks what are some of the nuances or fine tuning in brand or the brand building stage which is helps you get because you know people say getting to five millions hard then then it's a 10 but to do 20 million in what five years is pretty wild like any specific learnings on that we obsess about our packaging a lot i remember um i think it was barney it was barney or jason from fuel 10k but you know i think he told me they iterated their packaging about 20 times they just refined it and refined it and refined it and we we do that a lot you know i've i've also subtly popped some behind me but you know we're probably on to about version 10 and i know each time we sort of make a tweak you know it's it's a lot of work for the team to do the changeovers etc so but but each time you're just refining the messaging a bit and you know your packaging is your greatest piece of marketing it really is the the front of pack to get those the selling messages there you know the side of pack to tell your story you know really really matters so honestly yeah we probably changed it 11 or 12 times already you know just refining refining refining yeah but i love it it is it's like a game what you're what you're you know the picture you're painting is what i loved about manny life is it's literally a game of if inches and one percent that compound those little bits of packaging that very subtle dance of um you know the the how often you do the promotions are they shallow the do you manage a blag of coffee or a meeting with someone senior do you get in with you know it's just all these little things that and it's just that constant fighting at the edge which pushes you forward um since we last spoke what are some of the surprising lessons or ways you've had to change sort of personally or as a leader oh golly i well i'll tell you some of the hardest decisions which sort of links a bit business to people and then i'll because i think the hardest decisions are always around people is we were talking about co-manufacturers early earlier and you know and that that first co - manufacturer i was talking about you know the the sad truth is you know we we outgrew them And I hadn't really foreseen that.

43:09And I hadn't really understood that there had come a point where, you know, that person who's been so important to you at the start, you know, it's about, I always compare things to relationships. I was never very good on the relationship side of things, Dan. And I, you know, it's like breaking up with somebody. Honestly, it's, you know, they're very hard conversations to say, you know, it's not, and it is the old, you know, it's not me, it's you. but how do you but i found those hard how did you how do you prep that conversation you know sometimes we did it well sometimes we did it badly you know again i i've always get in my car and go and see the person because you know or at least where i can because i think you know there's a i don't maybe it's a bit old-fashioned but you know a bit of respect to go and you know go and see them as opposed to just, you know, give them a phone call or, or drop them an email or whatever.

44:05So, so what I have where I, where I can, um, I'll go there, but, you know, but in truth, we've probably changed. If I just think back, I think across all our products, we probably changed the co-manufacturers we've gone just simply because of, well, scale, sometimes quality. A couple of times we had, I mean, there's one company that now sadly doesn't exist anymore, where they just couldn't get the quality right. And we tried and we tried and we tried, but ultimately we had to move on. But most of the time it's because of scale, which is a nice reason to have to move if you like. But I get a bit emotional about these things.

44:44So that's one of the big things. I think with the team, I think we're probably, I hope, um not not not not um not all down to me in any stretch but but one of the nice things about when you set up your company down is you can do it the way you want to you know i loved working at procter and gamble and nestle and all those places but but you know those were companies have been going for you know decades and decades if not hundreds of years so the culture was set their ways of doing things were set whereas age 48 we could set buyer me up and what i felt was the right way with a white sheet of paper, like completely clean.

45:23And, you know, and I think most of that is working, but it's, but there's still more that we can do. You know, there's stresses and strains in the business, but, you know, I'd love to be able to smooth out. I'm sure some members of the team are happier than others. You know, I'd love to be able to sort that out. But, but the truth is, and I think this is talked about in the community, Dan, but you might know better than me. It is hard work, you know, and I know there's a bit more truth maybe being spoken on LinkedIn, but as well as sort of your sort of Hoxton Shoreditch analogy, I think a lot of people kind of like to pretend, you know, all you have to do is a few LinkedIn posts and off you go.

45:59And it's, it is not like that. It is incredibly hard work. I mean, it really is. What's the incredibly hard work that most people don't understand? I think probably the intensity of it. I work probably shorter hours than I did at Nestle, but it's more intense. What would you work? Do you work seven days a week? I used to when we started, probably for about the first 18 months. Then I got it down to six, and now it's probably about five and a half. So, yeah, I'd say about five and a half. um but but i get in at half eight and i'm home to have kids i'm kids i have dinner with my kids i don't eat my nice nice nice fruity evening exactly um you know we always seem to have supper around six o 'clock and i'm home for then it's only you know in chester small but then but then but then but then are you doing work into the evening sometimes i you know i've got my laptop when watching tv with the girls in the evening but no because i think it's important because i feel like i feel like work-life balance is a myth and i feel like it's um and again it's like people need to see that to get to 20 mil you do need to do seven days a week you know and that's why i like how open and honest um you know perfect ted are it's like no no this is like we're always working because i think there is just it's the intensity of it and just the um because i find out with this this is a 24 seven full and i've spoken to other podcasters who are ahead and it's like no this is a constant on like you can still be present and and see your mates but like i'll be editing on a sunday to get the podcast out so i wanted to try and not sugarcoat it for like you know i switch off and you know play chess or whatever like it is that that relentlessness of it what else would you say is bad dan it is a competition you know and if not if not for consumers then for space on shelf or whatever it might be and competition does drive you on but it but it does drive you you know like you've got to be very driven for it and i you're right yeah yeah 100 what did you so so that was that was so it was the intensity of it what are the hard decisions did you have to make to unlock the 20 million pound growth because i think you're the sum of the hard decisions you make and that's saying no going back a few steps like what were those um i'm quite bad at saying no dan i'm not thinking i'm not sure prioritization is one of my my my big my big areas i mean i you know when you say it i honestly there's nothing particularly you know the big three drivers you asked about earlier that's that's what we focused on um you know our our mpd plan a lot of it when you asked about customers earlier has been driven through the customers you know we find out what the buyers want so we focus on on that that makes a lot of sense i yeah first time you've asked me a question i'm drawing a blank i there's nothing i it's all good that comes to mind so when you say so you it's interesting so so we had the consumer piece for the kefir and the products, and sorry, the granolas.

49:22So then you ask the customer what they want for MPD. So say Waitrose versus Sainsbury's, and then we'll wrap this up after this. So now you've got to pick up kids. But like... I do. So you'll ask the buyer what they want. How do you make the decision between doing what's right for the buyer versus what's right for the consumer? Because they're, again, slightly different things. Yeah, well, here's an example. A customer I haven't mentioned so far, Waitrose. So, and it goes back to Giles' theory about innovate close to your core. So, you know, granola, granola, granola, we flipping love granola.

50:03And we, our expertise is in how to make it, you know, the best for gut health. but especially when you're small the buyer the retailer has got far more data around flavors and flavor choices and which flavors their their shoppers prefer so you know waitrose came to us or maybe 18 months ago maybe more recently you know they wanted a ginger one because ginger is particularly strong in in waitrose it's one of theirs yeah yeah yeah so so it's fantastic because you know they're an amazing retailer that's the flavor they wanted so we'd do a specific one for them yes of course you know same for tesco same for sainsbury's etc because they've each got their particular flavor profiles and we'll do bespoke so it's exactly like jiles is saying it's really close to the core same factory say a lot of very similar ingredients um but just tweaked for the individual shoppers what about the bars what about the bars same i mean we've only just started on bars so um we you know there we've just relaunched them by the way down we had pure fiber eight bars before we've now gone out um very complex around vat vat rules get in the way so we've now got a sort of fiber and protein bar bringing the two benefits together and that's really flying so now we can start to get into some more flavors for customers etc it's really cool what would you say since 2 million when we last spoke to 20 million are the three biggest mistakes you've made oh god three biggest mistakes uh right what comes to my mind we changed our porridge pots um we we were we had vegan porridge pots that were in plastic and we went to milk base that were in paper um and sorry um paper pot manufacturers but they just didn't work um the lids didn't stick to the paper properly etc we had terrible damages etc so that was um uh not the mistake the mistake there was cost in wastage consumer what was what was the scar tissue off that okay interesting yeah um next one uh probably not investing enough in marketing early enough I think if I applied hindsight, would I have grown the marketing team and put a bit more money into the marketing plan earlier?

52:39It's a debate every company has. We go round and round and round. We're just getting the courage to invest more now. So you might have seen... Is that trade marketing or is that more, as you say, the traditional brand building playbook? Both. Okay. Interesting. Where would you have spent it if you had your time again? Probably close to the customer, but even more, you know, sort of creating some of those amazing in-store displays. I saw, to credit them, you know, Moju did a lovely, with the co-op, they did a lovely, it was with the Spinados, the children's charity. It's really brilliant, but my gosh, the in-store standout.

53:22So, again, brilliant equity driving in store, I think would have invested even more into that. And, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we'd have done that. Also, I think during the cost of living, inflation was at its peak. We froze the team growth and we froze it for about a year and a half, maybe even two years. and you know we had to and i think we we we deliberately chose a strategy sort of waiting until you know the people about to go pop uh you know your point dad people used to brag about big teams now it's about who's got the most efficient team but i think probably in a couple of areas especially on operations we left it too long we should have brought um we should have should have brought people in earlier but but it's not a not not to get my violin out but it's a big thing bringing some you know creating a new role bringing someone in you've got to be really certain the role is there you've got the money to pay for it you know you don't want to bring people in on a false promise and bring them in and then let them go so i think we were sort of right to be cautious but we're probably a bit too cautious uh final thing mate we sat in when you know many moons ago feels like yesterday two million what are some of the things you've radically changed your mind on now we're at 20 million like a pre-held belief and when we were here now we're up here what what's what have you changed your mind on oh god dan i've got a terrible feeling the answer to that question is not very much i feel like i i mean we haven't changed around what we're all about going back to our conversation at the start in terms of purpose and consumers we haven't changed our mind on how we run the team we haven't changed our mind on trying to run the business um you know by the way down we're not you know i'd also like be waving a for sale sign that we've got a lot more to do etc but i think just having you know being honest and having a mind of like we're trying to both be the best at this and at some point like Like all other brands, we want to find the right home for us.