The Indian Restaurant Chain Built to Beat McDonald's - With ZERO Marketing Spend

48:28So if your 10 percent becomes a central overhead, you've still got 15 percent of profits that delivered for the company. But if you're putting capex, depending where the capital is not going to come for free. So if you raise that money, you need capital repayments to go out. So if the capital repayments or even the interest of the capital that you've raised should be able to service from that 15 percent or if your company level EBITDA is 10 percent then it needs to come out from that 10 percent and that's the thinking you need to put when you are evaluating uh you know where you are in that journey we know you know we've got three stores in the pipeline we've got well this year our plan is to be to 30 34 stores and we will be by end of this year when you're laying those up our existing source EBITDA needs to support because when card if for example opens our labor cost was up about 80 percent because we are training new people we are you know that's heavy money going out from from the from the business so we have to factor that in when we're building that up so suddenly if you don't have a a cushion to play with these we call it store maturity so store maturity takes eight months, nine months, even to a year.

49:46What's store maturity? So store maturity, say for example I budgeted Cardiff to do a million. It's not going to do millions in sales annually. It's not going to hit that in month one. Yes. It's going to take some time. Some stores for example some stores would take six months, some stores might take three months some stores might take a year and then you make those assessments and you make a business plan on the back of where you feel you would have. And a good kind of benchmark is a year. Some stores take probably 18 months to come to the store maturity. And that's what you would factor in. So if you factored in a million pounds per month one and you projected that on your forecast, you're soon going to run out of money.

50:34You know what I mean? So that's something that you need to consider. I think we build that. Our kind of store maturity is roughly in the region of six to eight months. How did you come up with this map framework? I mean, I worked in Compass for years, and it's something that I learned in my working with Compass. They used to do that for the stores that they managed. So what Compass sites are you looking after? I was in the central overhead team. I was in business excellence, which is a specialist team. that, you know, managed a lot of the group contracts, so like BT. And I had various, in Compass, I was in nine years for Compass.

51:18I started off as a porter, believe me or not, in one of their contracts. And I got into their management trainee program. I became the management trainee of the year. I got noticed. I got then picked in the central team, and I moved from operation to marketing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's been my journey the nine years. And so with this MAPS thing, did you look at them, do they does is one more important the other or do you look at them i mean everything needs to as in like when you when you say say we always have a meeting about maps you know yeah this week say we're running a restaurant together you come to me what's the first thing you go through and what's the last thing you go through first and foremost is your map to the sales yes ultimately everything is a derivative of that you know what i mean if you have a store that does thousand pounds a year is just flipping pointless looking at the figures completely right so who the map to is your strongest what is your strength to be able to drive because you know this is the problem with franchising right everyone's driven on map one because they want to build more stores more stores more stores more map ones what again new stores yes so they're all building new stores to get the growth but map two is what drives everything in so if you don't have the sales to drive the growth then you'll always have problems so my most important part is map two and map two signifies your strength so for us you know our marketing spend in this business if i say that we turn over 10 million as a business our marketing spend for the year is 80 000 pounds a year and that includes two employees who we have on a on a full-time basis and paying their salaries and a little marketing that we do on uber and stuff like that why don't you spend money on marketing because we never have to why i'm sorry might sound as an arrogant no no but it's just i i think you're i i think uh and correct me if i'm wrong here but i think your location selection is your marketing because like for example i think it was really interesting putting a site in Leicester, in the University of Leicester, LSE, where there's loads of Indian students.

53:28Being really strategic about where you put the stores. Am I right in saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that almost is your marketing? A bit like McDonald's. I'll just counter that a little bit. Yeah, go for it. If you say we are close to Oxford Street, but we're not close to Oxford Street in the sense of we have not been on Oxford Street, we are off Oxford Street. If you're just at a Reading store, we are the fag end of the high street. But we have the strength of pulling the punters in. Right. Through word of mouth? And the product. Yes. Price, authenticity. Speed. Pillars that I spoke to you about.

54:04Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel that's the strength of the brand. And if you spoke to a lot of the Indians here, I'll be amazed if not many people know about us as a brand. And that's because, you know, I can go in a little more detail, but, you know, Indians are foodie in the core. And they are very core to the, you know, the flavor profile that we have. The commercialization of Indian food, I think one of the, you know, podcasters in yours earlier has alluded to that previously, is not run by Indians, run by Bangladeshis. that Bangladeshis are instrumental in bringing Indian cuisine to the restaurant.

54:44That was this week's episode. Karen from Hoppers. Yeah, he's brilliant. Yeah. And that's absolutely true. But what they bought is a North Indian cuisine, which is cream-based, onion-based, and it doesn't hit you. So if I say this all the time, so if I gave you an andhra, which is a South Indian curry in your first day of curry experience, I promise you You will never touch Curries again Because it's so Acquired So you know So intense You would never Yeah Karen Excuse my ignorance here But Karen was saying Different parts of India Are like It's like comparing The UK to Spain To Poland Like it's so Different So it's like Creating a Imagine like You know Creating a European I suppose the Analogous thing Is like creating A European menu Yeah You know you've got English, Polish, Spanish Finnish Like it's all Yeah It's so fascinating.

55:38And I think I would touch on that, Dan. Yeah, go for it. You're absolutely right. And I think it's the timing of it. So if I was to do SKVP for a wider audience and I had to do that 20 years back, I would fail miserably because the palette wasn't ready. Hoppers can do what they're doing because the palette is ready. If hoppers were born 20, 25 years back, I'm an absolute fan. So I love hoppers. Jim Kanna and the likes are my absolute favorite. And they are pioneers in something like that. And I have due respect for that. But I think if they were born 15, 20 years back, the scale that they're doing would not be there.

56:23I'm sounding a little bit controversial. It's the timing of it that is crucial because the Western world now wants authentic, wants those deeper flavors because the palate is ready. The palate is ready. But also, do you think now, so like obviously, you know, there's now I think the British, British Britain as a country's palette is ready for like a QSR, Indian, a Desi QSR, a Desi McDonald's. Absolutely. I think 20 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, it probably wasn't ready. But you have these brands, these amazing, you know, slightly... Well, Karen's a perfect example. He's got a huge Instagram following.

57:04He's written amazing cookbooks. He's friendly with Jamie Oliver. He's introducing everyone to this really changing our palates. More of that happening. Jim Karner's becoming big. Jim Karner big in supermarkets now. Absolutely. So people are getting ready. you try no offense to uh the you know the legacy brand but you have that one of those jim khaner sauces at home compared to i think it's charlwoods yeah it's night and day but it's only because we've been eating in these restaurants already whereas now i think this this business is perfectly timed because people don't always want a mcdonald's people don't always want a burger game people don't always want you know kfc and this is healthier and it's cheaper and it's affordable and it's fast.

57:47I think timing is so interesting in business. Absolutely. It's one of the most, sometimes it's just the right idea at the wrong time. Yeah. And it's, I think you told me about that. I think that's not just a UK-centric kind of thinking. Yes. It's across Europe. You go into Europe, the Sarwana Bhawan in Paris, the Sarwana Bhawan in Rome. Yes. You know, Wagamama is, Wagamama is, if you have their firecracker not many can take those spices but you see the amount that goes through and people eating that on a regular basis it's just unbelievable but one thing is that that's the science I don't know who, I read it somewhere that the reason why Indians eat three times a day all spicy food is because once you put spicy food and the more you eat spicy food your taste buds get killed so if you don't put something spicy to excite it It doesn't get excited.

58:47So, hence, you know, to see, you know, I shouldn't be taking names, but, you know, see who aren't doing well on the high street. You know, Italian, for example, Pizza Express, Prezzo, you send the news, they all are non-spice end businesses. So, and then see who is doing well. The palette, as it moves in the spice, it's difficult. Once you're on a spice trail, you can never come back. Oh, God. Yeah, well, it's like a, it's a starburst carnival of flavor in your mouth, man. Like, it's quite insane. Absolutely. Yeah, super interesting. So, at the minute, so, kind of where we, we were saying, you know, 80K on marketing, and you were saying, like, a lot of, a lot of Indians and South Indians know this cuisine really well.

59:36Yeah. Say this, you know, the adoption card. Yeah, yeah. Like, have you seen Seth Godin's adoption card? Yeah, yeah. and then laggers yeah laggers all that stuff yeah yeah how if you wanted to so everyone you know i go to i was just in yorkshire in the yorkshire dales right yeah um driving back down the m1 we pull in to a service station and we go to mcdonald's yeah but you know there's a kfc say in 10 15 years time there's an skv at every next to a pret at every service station of the country say we're here now just for argument's sake, right in the bottom corner of the early adopters of the Adoption Gov, what do you need to do to go from here to here to essentially move out of just, like, I know there's not just Indians that eat here, but a big consumer base is Indians.

1:00:28How do we get the whole of the UK and the world kind of eating this? What are the steps that you believe need to happen? I think it's a journey done. Yes. And I feel, you know, McDonald's wasn't built. what McDonald's is today is taking 50, you know, 60 odd years to be where it is. And I feel it's a journey. And along the journey, I, you know, let me give you one more, one more kind of... That I feel that strongly about. So if you see McDonald's, McDonald's has a Big Mac, which is what they're famous for. And they're built around that. So it's kind of Burger King is a Whopper and then something is built around that.

1:01:07German Donut Kebab, other kebabs, and obviously built around it. Every brand needs a hero product to take to the market. And is that hero product good enough to create a wider appeal? You have what I power this morning. And if I had given you the option again to eat it, you would any day for the Prime Bits, you would eat that happily. Is the Hero product a gateway drug enough? A gateway drug, but is that gateway drug big enough for everyone? Absolutely. I've already come to that point. And it's a journey. So when you try desperately to get to where you want to be in 15 years today, you will make problems.

1:01:46You will make have problems. So my view is that we will be the widest. We don't want to be today. We want to be there in 10, 15 years. So for me, my bread and butter are Indians or Asians who come and find me wherever we are and give us their patronage and we serve them really well. That's why the connect. As we go along, as you would see us in motorway service, as you see us at the airport, as you see us, all I've got to convince you to do the first trial. Once you've done the first try The follow on is not a problem Historically SKPP has always been sitting In a nation dominated spaces It's only now that we're coming out Think about Thai as an example So Thai Express I don't know if you follow that brand But Thai Express is in malls and in everyone's So if you went to Thai cuisine It was always a cuisine that you went For your birthday or family Went into a Thai restaurant and ate Thai cuisine Was not seen as an everyday eat Even when I was working in Compass A lot of people said When I was doing Indian burritos The thought process was No one eats Indian food for lunch It was always an evening few beers Or an occasion to go to Or my local curry house Which I would order takeaway and come back Indian food was never consumed In a lunchtime market That's why you never saw Indian In a kind of a Quick fire Grab and go spaces Because it was always seen in that but it's the format and accessibility and again I come back to the point of commercialization of it which creates those you know kind of opportunities and it's cool so for us we want to be I do feel that Indian cuisine has traveled our version of paneer tikka masala is as good as a chicken tikka masala that you would try but I all have got to convince someone to kind of try it once and we have that in our portfolio a lot of the products that we have is slightly alien.

1:03:44So even you were struggling to pronounce Vodapao, you know, as a starting point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our hero product is not something that you see on a day in, day out. But it's on dishroom's menu. Yes. It's on, as this becomes commercially strength, as people see, when we started this journey, we would hardly see one or two brands that would serve a Vodapao or have that on the menu. But now you pick up any Indian, like a QSR or any kind of mom and pop shops, you will have Vodapar as one of the products. So I want to own the Indian, you know, kind of the Vodapar space for the Western world. This is just a two-year-old question.

1:04:27Would you create a name around, so like a Big Mac, right, is actually just a double cheeseburger. Yeah. Right? A Whopper is just a double cheeseburger. A Zinger burger is just a chicken burger. but those brands clearly create a name that is so zinger has nothing to do with burgers yeah whopper has nothing to do with burgers really i suppose big mac links to the brand mcdonald's would you as you try and go mass market create a own a name around the product is that which is in our name so skvp stands for sri krishna what about yes actually in our name because it's a mouthful we've created as skvp which is an abbreviated version of the longer name but it's actually in our name so it's tucked inside and i you know you would watch this space you know if someone looks at this podcast 15 years later would would would would certainly know what a what a power is because it's going to go global yeah like i said the the history of what a power is only very recent 1968 has not had a full-blown and even in india is gone ballistic is gone in every state because Maharashtra Mumbai is a small town and I would love to take you down.

1:05:39Yeah, man, I'm down, man. If you can do that, that'll be an amazing roadshow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we can do. But that humble bread, Pau, is cutting in every corner of India, let alone coming outside the world. There's a project, there's a brand in New York that is doing Project Vara Pau. It's one of the products I've been following them. There's so many others. But the way you're making it, so Seth Godin talks a lot about scaffolding. Yeah. So ideas need scaffolding to help them spread. Yeah. So the SKVP is the scaffolding. It's the abbreviated version. The Zynga is ultimately scaffolding. The I'm Loving It is scaffolding for those bigger brands.

1:06:20It's like, how do you get that idea to spread? So say we are recording this podcast in 15 years' time. Yeah. And we're, you know, we've just gone through, I've driven past, you know. SKVP drive-thru. Yeah, SKVP drive-thru, right? I've driven past loads of them. What do you see the biggest challenges, if you can look through, imagine that kind of telescope into the future, what do you see some of the biggest challenges that you're going to have to overcome to get to there, to get to where we're in the service stations, you know, outside Leeds, having one of your hero products? I think I didn't see you tell.

1:06:59I think it would be a great place where we have, you know, because the route to scale is where we need to define the next phase of it. Because if you have to build 100 stores, it's a lot of money that you need to build on an equity basis, right? At what stage would you then look at a hybrid version where you're doing key equity stores versus a franchise or even strategic partnership? Nando's, if I'm not wrong, is a franchise version but all done by a single entity. So they're not giving out franchising. that would be an ideal situation where we have gone to America we've gone to Canada we've gone to Europe we've gone with strategic partners who help us drive and scale the business I think my biggest ambition through this project and hopefully we'll do more is to be able to bring Indian cuisine on a QSR at least on the top 10 list and I feel that's a big you know big project and one I'm really very confident we'll be able to do because now like I said the accessibility so let me give you an example of hoppers can do what they do but it will only be restricted to who can afford it if you've got to cut mass market it's either a supermarket which is what Jim Kanna is doing yes Jim Kanna cannot go in smaller towns cities but Jim Kanna spices and bits the brand transpires into your home.

1:08:30Jim Karno's got like a barbell strategy. So you have a high-end one-star Michelin or two-star Michelin restaurant, which has cost you an arm and a leg. And I think they've got one in London. I think they've got an Ambusters Clubhouse in New York. Yeah, yeah. So there's that end, which is high price point, but not many people can afford it. And then they've got the other end of the barbell, Waitrose, Sainsbury's, the sauces. I think they've now got these chickens. Yeah, yeah. I saw these gorgeous... They're doing in Waitrose, yeah. Yeah, ah. genius but I love this because there's no right way any way can be done yeah and that's what I mean so through us we can reach an everyday audience whereas with the restaurant model yes we can still do a Nando's format we can still do all of the others in terms of retail that would be the brand extension that we do but I do feel that we could cut restaurants and be in every city in UK I mean every you know even the secondary tier third tier cities here in UK and then our aspiration is to take it to global my bigger vision is to find the stores globally and I gave you the example Sarwana Bhawan which is you know 100 locations outside of India and it's probably in probably 25 odd countries we could do that easily because the food transpires food is you know kind of something that you know people will it's a differentiator as well because not many do you know what about like i said the way we do so our attention to detail is now what about is next to nothing we want to be the best what about in the world so even if in some cases where people who come and eat here feel that we have a better version of it that even what you get in the body which is such a so so in terms of going mass market it's it's hero products keeping your pillars of all the you know the three stools of the three legs of the stool speed affordability and authenticity what other things do you think are important capital yeah i think at some point we really have to think on how we could explore this we were backed by haldiram one of the you know it's a massive conglomerate in india who's believed in our story and invested us and we are grateful of their support at some point when we really wanted to take the next jump, we really need to understand the capital and the deployment of capital that we would need to scale this up, which is going to be our biggest challenge going forward.

1:11:04And like I said, you know, there's no wrong in the product, there's no wrong in the format, there's no wrong in store level Ibitda, which is our strongest standpoint. It's just the capital and deploying in the right locations, which will be the key. And also in my journey of doing it, is understanding which one comes first. You don't want to go in a tertiary location because the store maturity takes two years, whereas you might as well be in Oxford where the store maturity comes in two months or three months or four months. And do those locations first and then go out. Because for context, you built Rapchick before to 36 sites.

1:11:41Yeah, correct. What's the art and science of finding sites? I mean for us we're luckily I think a lot of it is you know kind of gut instinct and when you've done so many you get a feel of what you're getting at and I think there's a little bit of science of where because our bread and butter has always been the Indian diaspora and the Asian space so we are a little more concentrated so let me give you East Castle as an example the characteristic of East Castle East Castle is where we're at now so we have a lot of office goers who come here, a lot of tourists who come to Oxford Street, who shop in Oxford Street, maybe they're not coming from India, but they're coming from Newcastle or Manchester or wherever, find an Indian space to come and eat so close to Oxford Street.

1:12:29So this was a, you know, there was a lot of internal kind of conflicts of whether this is the right location, but this is the best performing store. So, you know, location, we don't think we'll go wrong in being in major cities where there's a little student population, there's office environment and a family environment that does. Milton Keynes as an example, a lot of Asians or Indians commute between Milton Keynes and, you know, central London. So there's a lot of offices and a lot of, you know, kind of families who are settled in Milton Keynes. And again, like I said, that, you know, there's so many Indian restaurants but we differentiate completely with the price, with the authenticity and with our speed.

1:13:16So you don't have to you know, it's not a space where you would celebrate your 50th birthday. I mean, you know, we don't transpire ourselves that way that well, but we are very clear that if you're eating four times a week, we are your one or two of those four occasions that you'll come and eat with us because one, it's authentic it's what you feel you'll cook at home and you get a home yes there's almost there's a frequency play as well yes and that's why the volume must drivers so we have also so i think the bit the just playing this out loud i think the who was i speaking to uh oh yeah i had do you remember coco da mama have you seen coco yeah yeah yeah so uh dan um the founder he's got a new place now uh i think he exited that yeah uh called Don't Tell Dad in Queens Park.

1:14:07It's kind of like a bakery, but a restaurant. It's super accessible in the morning, but then it turns into kind of a bougie restaurant in the evening. I was having lunch with him the other week, and he was saying one of the things with Cocotamama was the frequency. But that was kind of because of a varied menu. So I think the beauty of having such a big menu here is that you can come here four, five, six, seven times a week. Yeah, absolutely. One day you're craving for South Indian. The other day you want something indulgent in terms of, you know, kind of batoures or something like that. Or sometimes you want just a quick chai and a vada pah and out.

1:14:40So we cater to those occasions quite well in terms of the depth of the menu spaces that we have. So if you want to fill something up, you are at leisure, you want to sit and, you know, we have that environment that you are comfortable and you've been served. No one's rushing you out in that sense. Hence our requirement of going into bigger spaces. And occasion, like you rightly said, the occasions, So we're not relied on new customers every time. You know, like how many times would you go to Dishoom, you know, it pinches your pocket. Also, it's an experience that you want to do and keep, you know, restricted for a special occasion, isn't it?

1:15:16Yes, mate. For a fiver, this is the best lunch in London. Absolutely is. That's what I feel. And I feel there is a big market for that. And historically, like I was saying earlier, it's been serviced by mum and pop. but my mom and pop shops cannot come to central london they will be in hounslow they will be in harrow they'll be in those indian pockets they would not be able to come and that's why i see an edge and that's why cardiff has been such a great success although it's only been a week or so it's been open but the numbers are how do you get when you open a new site how do you get people through the door i mean i keep saying that building that excitement right we are coming so we We have our boats.

1:15:57So our build takes roughly about, so this Cardiff took slightly longer because we had some internal kind of challenges to fix. But it generally takes about six to eight weeks to just build. So once we've exchanged contracts, the first thing we do is put our kind of banner out to say we are coming. And that creates a bit of expansion. Asians who are working, then they would WhatsApp each other saying, oh, SKBP is coming. And in the Indian circle, like I said, we are quite known. You know, some of the great chefs who work in central London know the history of SKVP. Which ones? Because they would probably either be living in Hounslow and because all who have, the majority of chefs, I don't know whether I sound a bit political in saying this, but a lot of the ones who came lived in Asian pockets and worked and serviced in central London.

1:16:48So a lot of the chefs, I don't want to take names, but there are a lot of chefs who would be working but would be eating at SKVP. They might be in Gymkhana, for example, but they would be living and eating their food in SKVP. So they know about us in that sense. So growing up in the Indian pockets of London and or Solihull, what does that feel like growing up for you? Just out pure curiosity. I want to understand your perspective. get step into your shoes like what does that what's it like i mean you know and it's a typical of a lot of the migrants who have come right the initial years a lot of the times like when i came to uk one of my first experience of coming to uk it was my first international destination i came for my post-graduation for studies never been beyond the indian shores uh out of you know fear of being in a new place to excitement because you're embracing something new there's that excitement and then you know we I came from a for a middle class family so for me to make something out of my career and do something for myself was that utmost you know kind of importance so we you know we would be you know kind of looking at our expenses we're not you know you know I see a lot of my my you You know, kind of newer generations who are coming out of India from wealthy families are splashing.

1:18:19They're living in central London, living in a pond. We had none of that. You know, I live in a room shared by three people. And those were the hardship that teaches you a lot of things. And you had to struggle. So I said my earlier journey. Were you in, did you come to London first? Yeah, I came to London. I came to, yeah. I lived in Southall. Oh, wow. First thing in UK. What were those struggles? What did they teach you? I mean there's plenty you know doing your money management for one because you know you're a limited pot you have to survive in that limited pot also you know if you were coming abroad and taking a loan you have to service this loan back in India so you're not splashing in every opportunity that you can I said I started off as a porter in a compass contract in one of the stores and my last job with them was retail business and business excellence team nine years down the road so you know that explains the journey isn't it so the hardship that you have in the initial years you are studying you're you're you're working to make your life meet and then finding a way of for me it was always come to the west learn earn some money and go back but because i grew year and year and made something out of it felt excited and done and kept kept carrying on which is amazing and so is Sujay and Subod for example they were students who came in here who were working in hotels and such a beautiful job I must say this Sujay lost his job in a redundancy process and was finding what to do and Sujay and Subod decided that Manali who is Subod's wife said oh I have this recipe of varapa why don't we try varapa and chai there's so many Indians around people who would take liking for it So they took up a space in a Polish cafe to run just the warapao and chai.

1:20:12And it became so popular that the Polish cafe was getting pissed off because none of it was for his own business other than he wanted to have that space to get some money. And he said it was overpowering. And they literally threatened them to kind of throw them out. The landlord who owned that property for the cafe owned the chicken shop just opposite. And that chicken shop wasn't doing well. So he said, oh, why don't you take the plunge? You're doing so well. Take the plunge. If it works, then you have the keys. If you don't, then we'll take it back. And, you know, try it and do it. And they took the plunge.

1:20:50And that is a history now. That's the store and the property that they own. It's the property where Hounds is our best performing store till date. And I joke about this. and as McDonald's became the first McDonald's is always noticed or you know Chipotle is first Chipotle was always noticed and done this will become the first SKVP store in history where it was born so you know that's what I say is the humble beginning and you know they would go door to door giving vada pav and chai to the local you know kind of shops and that's how beautiful and the hard work that has gone in creating what is great a lot of the times you get people who say oh you know they see you in 23 no one looks at the hardship for me skvp my contribution to skvp is because what i've done in rap check you know my learnings my you know all of that has been brought into this business so it takes a lot what are the biggest most what yeah what did you what how did you fuck up at rap check what were the what were the biggest i think you only learn yeah absolutely yeah yeah what did you absolutely get wrong that like keeps you like oh and so when you come here you're like that ain't happening mate yeah yeah so you know what i said uh that you know it's a journey yes when the problem happens when you be want to be in your 10th year in your first year and i tried to do that i wanted to be almost too ambitious too ambitious yes too soon and you don't put systems and processes in place and then you and it's also it's a first time effect isn't it you do things on your first time and sometimes Our biggest problem with Rapchik was that we put every lease in one company.

1:22:40So if a store wasn't performing and wanted to get rid of it, no one let me off because they knew I was in a parent, the lease were held in a parent company. And when you're scaling business up, and especially if it's a new business, you have to push the boundaries. You have to. How would you know how you would do in universities if you don't have done one in university? how would you know what you would do in a mall or an airport if you're not done one in an airport it's all theoretical isn't it it's only when you do a practical one then you take learnings from it but it's kind of creating those safeguards around it which i think in my inexperience of doing this the first time which caused a lot of problems and then is there a specific example of that i mean we were in motorway locations where the rent was killing us we just couldn't couldn't afford it.

1:23:28We couldn't come out of it. We were in... Were you in Manchester? Yeah, we are still in Manchester. Rather say that our chick is in Manchester. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I think I first had it at university. Yeah. That was the first... I think it's in the airport, the newer section of the airport. Right. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, no, no, because I've tried it a handful of times because I think they had one. Was there one by the university? No, we never had one. We had one in the, you know, In a convenience store, which was a test ground on the Manchester High Street, was a spa that we had deployed.

1:24:06Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably you've tried us there. No, definitely. So, yeah, it's so fascinating because I feel like it's running before you can walk, which is, you know, cliches are cliches because they hold truth. Sometimes it works. I'm not saying it's wrong. You know, look at Wingstop, for example, when, you know, crazy example. exit of almost 300 million, 350 million. But it's an eight-year, nine-year journey in the UK. It's not even a pen company. But there's a story behind it. I always say, like, you should have, well, I've learned this the hard way. Like, I've got no patience.

1:24:42I need to be here. I'm not here. And I'm like, you're a failure. Like, you need to be here, bang. I'm crazy, right? But like, and I've learned it's this thing. is like so macro patience yeah on the macro level be patient on the micro level be so impatient yeah and so it's like in today i need to do as much as i physically can yeah which i'm like attack boom boom boom let's keep moving let's keep moving but then and it's this is what i've learned the hard way is it's like mate we've been doing this for six years like you know most of what there's stats most podcasters don't get past 10 episodes yeah so it's but it's really i don't suppose that's I'm trying to relate to you in terms of site numbers you know so but it's like it's really interesting how and I think if you're too focused on where you're trying to go you can't enjoy the now yeah absolutely right and I think the now is the most like you said you put it beautifully the macro and the micro right micro where you have to be detailed and have your pulse on yes and the micro determines the the you know the pulse yes for the macro isn't it yeah yeah yeah yeah I feel you know there's a lot of the times you know once you're past proof of concept once you've known there's a repeatability of a business then you just need to identify where where you could go with that and i think that and i think like i said having the infrastructure that's why i said that you lay the cost up front for the scale that you want to go so the pace you want to go you want to bring those people early on and and bring that i mean steady your base first to be able to absorb that onslaught.

1:26:21Because when it comes, you know, as a founder and as a businessman, you're always firefighting. If you have got 10 stores, you have problems of 10 stores. When you have 20 stores, you have problems of 20 stores. None of the business, I have not known any part of the business that runs without any issues. Oh, van broke down because the delivery is not coming. Firefighting. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many things that when you run and when you scale, the problems, you know, just increases. It's just about being able to have the infrastructure in place to be able to manage that chaos.

1:26:55What are your mental models for solving problems now? You know, for me, I always look at what is right. My thinking, like I said, for me, the map too is important. As long as the consumer is looked after, that's my bread and butter. That's everything can wait. you know that's for me is the main filter that i do so is this this action is this going to impact consumers in a way this is making i'm saying something is this going to impact something which will impact the business in in in in the sales or the or the consumer part that's my first filter and second is how critical it is but sometimes when you have you know 30 40 odd people working for you everything is urgent because everyone wants a piece of you so you just have to be able to prioritize what is how do you do that because i'm bad at that again same filter is just can this wait till tomorrow i've got another four things that i need to address which addresses map two i will focus on those and then come back to but if it's not he's revenue right yes yeah ultimately is it like i said if this business everything else can be managed if you don't have a lot of the times you know i see some element of it was in rap check as well When you are relied on spending money to get business, you know, custom acquisition cost, you're constantly spending money to get acquisition cost.

1:28:16What sort of stuff would you spend it on? I mean, marketing. You see adverts that they do, flyers that they put. You have to constantly do that to get sales. Then it's a vicious circle. You're always going to have every brand, even McDonald's need that advertising. I'm not taking that away. but if you have to constantly spend to get repeats yeah yeah yeah then you're in the wrong yeah yeah you're basically filling a bucket with water but there's an empty hole in it yeah yeah yeah yeah so interesting what's been the moments when you've had to really like you feel like the titanic's almost you know sinking and you've had to just hustle hard like what are the like those are the moments i love like we've had so many of these when you're just like fuck and it's like, I was listening to a podcast with Dana White, UFC and his mindset's amazing you listen to him and I'm like, I'd love to go for a beer with him, so I feel like I'd come away thinking I can eat the universe do you know what I mean?

1:29:18and he was basically talking about, in Covid, he had this big fight with Habib, do you watch as much UFC? No, you know the UFC and he was like and basically all the sports were cancelled. They had this big venue shut in Brooklyn and New York. They called him last minute, like, right, the venue's off. He's saying he was going to, getting a deal done with a lawyer. He was driving back home 20 minutes. As soon as he got home, the lawyer would call him and go, that site's off. Everywhere in America was, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, shut, shut, shut. Legs setting off, yeah. And he was like, this is the moment where you don't say, no, this ain't fucking happening.

1:29:57He goes, I'm going to make this happen. I will find a way to make this happen. They ended up putting on a fight in Saudi. They've now got an amazing relationship with Saudi. You know, Churchill says adversity is a terrible thing to waste. And I feel like it is. Like, what have been the moments when you've been really in adversity? And how did you turn that into opportunity? I think COVID was for all the restaurant businesses. Other than COVID. Other than COVID. I hate the C words. But, you know, in restaurant business, it always feels like that. But, you know, for us, you know, I'll give you an example.

1:30:31In Manchester, we've exchanged contracts in January this year. We're still in build. We're still the challenges that pose us through. It's just enormous. We've spent a crazy amount of money in building that store, and it's still costing us money. That's the part. I feel the entrepreneur's journey is all about managing stress. I think I used to get quite worked up when there were even smaller issues, and every time, and I would work 16, 18 hours a day. was just was killing me from inside now a lot more more balanced because i've been through that journey i've been and it's your everyday the moment you accept that this is your everyday life that is it you will pivot honestly and i'm whoever is listening to this you know if it's going through this phase every time you know i've heard so many podcasts where they have they have literally on the brink

1:31:25SpaceX name it Tesla has been almost on the bankruptcy when were you on the brink multiple times because you're always pushing the boundary even now we have a pipeline of six stores I have got to find a way obviously in negotiation if those deals don't come up then I have to rethink the model hustle that's what you've got to do as an entrepreneur You know, that's what you've got. You know, I mean, no one comes with a 10 million, you know, money in the bank. And if you're running with a 10 million money in the bank, you're not running the business efficiently, is my view, because you will be paying interest or whatever on it.

1:32:06So I feel that, you know, till the time it gets to a certain age, you know, look at Pret got valued at 1.8 billion. And post-COVID, you know, the completely game has changed. There's not many people in central London. The whole model is here. They've never franchised. They've moved to franchising. But also, what I love, what you were saying, mate, is like once you're in the entrepreneur's journey, you're just accepting it's going to be crazy and just never losing that relentless hustle. I've interviewed Julian Metcalf, the founder of PrEP, and it's who twice. And I always talk about osmosis lessons.

1:32:45Sometimes there's lessons, you know, you tell me a lesson, mate. I could actually observe you with your team and that's an osmosis lesson I think those lessons are sometimes more interesting anyway interviewing Julian and it just shows his obsession his complete and utter obsession he's on the phones on the blower to some guy in Korea looking for one tiny ingredient to improve the recipe of some not a name dish but some dish on the menu he's podcast ends you know we chat for two hours bang thanks straight away back on the phone he's then got his driver waiting outside he's like go walk around that bang bang bang talking about the ingredient on a plane to korea and it's like mate he doesn't have to do this yeah he's made his money like he's just got that relentless obsession yeah yeah and like i when i saw that it kind of really rubbed off on me in a positive way i was just like being completely obsessed and like i don't think the thing is that you know russia hard because when i went through the previous journeys you felt you were alone yeah you never felt that what you're going through is a common thing i think that's been my learning along the years as i've learned from other people and you like you like you said you know look at leon for example he's back on the on the thing with john vinson yeah i'm taking it back on and it's a journey he's literally building that business from scratch again so i feel that you know you know a lot of the founders don't realize whether this is normal or not normal, whether he should accept whether it's a critical situation or not.

1:34:19And I feel I would want to do something you know later on the journey to bring some of that but I wish I had a mentor or someone who would speak to me. Every time you come through a position where you feel oh that's it I can't make this payroll, there's something kind of clicks and it moves on. Even in an established business to a non-established business, I think that's part of the part of the journey I feel so more people who will accept that will have the relentless to fight it because when you think this is it, I can't do it, you take easier options or sell this business off or whatever I feel that is a pivotal piece where you have to relentlessly fight and we're doing that even in SKVP it's a 10 million business it's a very profitable business but you're building for the next 20 stores it again it's fresh in my mind because i listened to it last night but dana white was saying that um he he has on his walls like loads of positive affirmations yeah and he has his gym and he just and he doesn't let anything into that mindset and he said they had an interview say three or four weeks before the interview that i was listening to last night and he's got this amazing gym this amazing office and um i think the person who was interviewing said oh don't you feel like you know with everything that's going on in america it's very hard right now people are struggling people can see you with all this money and like people will think you know don't you think you should spend as much he goes that's why you're going to lose because ultimately you should be looking at me being like i'm a guy who didn't go to university i'm a guy who didn't have didn't come from much and look what i've built and i think it's all a mindset you can either be have the victimhood absolutely and i've definitely been privy to the sometimes sat there and moaned and being like oh it's not going my way but i feel like i think it's really important to just be positive and action orientated and it's just like as you say every day he's slaying the monster of yeah of you and you have to be relevant you have to be thick-skinned you know there's a lot of naysayers around you when you are you know the more that's been my belief the more you climb up the ladder the more people want you down they want to see a downfall to to to crave or get excited about i don't think the down downside is what people are more excited to talk about i feel that as you as you as you as you are building something great you can't do it without passion and do and and self-belief a lot of the times all of this gets questioned when you are in that phase and be able to see that through I mean endlessly I've been in this industry for 25 years even when we were as an employee working for Compass there was times when I wanted a marketing role job that I pitched was given to someone else I took it as a challenge I went and did my chartered marketing as self learning I'm saying the point I was making is that in not even in the business world even in everyday world there are so many challenges thrown at you and you feel that you've lost everything and there's no future beyond it you know I was the hardest decision is to step out of rap chick which I built from my own hands and and get get working for for another brand that I I now hopefully have built but that that moment you have to take those decisions you know if I stuck to you know being protective or what am I doing I would have not created what I've created with you know so I feel that you know in life you take those pivotal decisions and it's very personal because my you know kind of ability to take stress and my ability in my personal life where my kids are where my things are is totally different to someone who's a bachelor who's got no commitments and no mortgage to pay or anything right and that is very personal I feel and you know my advice is you know having someone alongside you has always you know i feel that that's the strength to be able to see those through and being passionate and having that self-belief the uh the founder of uh the four seasons hotels the canadian guy has got a quote which is excellence is the ability to withstand pain yeah yeah yeah and i think that's essentially what it is it's just that like going for it um into a few more things mate and we'll wrap this up just because we've got um meetings i'm absolutely loving this um what are so say sales to give you so like a thousand pounds yeah yeah just random measures and it was and you were to spend that on driving more sales so to map two yeah so map two is the important yeah the most important of all the maps to drive sales like how would you spend that i mean i would more uh kind of look at the fundamental because when you spend money on a short-term basis to bring sales i would spend that on the fundamentals so what can i do with a thousand pounds that one way speed of the kind of bring more so if my authenticity is 90 how can i bring that to 100 that's where i would focus because that's a long-term call for a business.

1:39:45So my£1 ,000 that is spent is going to take me a longer journey rather than getting it, spending it on a kind of a marketing or doing a gimmick or a video or whatever. So if I had that... Yeah, so what would you do? Would you go and look for a better potato supplier? Absolutely, yes, absolutely. We are relentless in our thinking that our what our power has to be the best. Now, I'll give you an example. Our bakers went to Mumbai, to a baker in Mumbai, spent a day, a couple of days in Mumbai, learning how it is made in the actual bakeries of that bread. That's the kind of extent that we're going in to create the best.

1:40:22You know, our, what our power needs to be the best in the world. And if I have to go globally, I have to have a product that is best in the world. You know, you can flog a, you know, kind of a mature product for only a certain time. And soon people will discuss the Me Too brands. and there's, you know, I feel that that's the key to our, you know, kind of success and growth. That's been my mindset. And in our business and our organization, we always look at, you know, looking at how, where my vada pav is today and where it needs to be in five years' time. We're putting our own bakery in our own bakery production kitchen.

1:41:00We're investing almost 200 grand in building that system up. but we sell in the region like I said 1.6 million just the Vada Power you've got samosa power you've got power budget bread is a critical it's in our name it's in our career so we want to bring it in house create that that you know kind of authenticity and the finish and the product that we'll get so if I gave you a bit of dosh now you'd be instead of doing some getting 10 TikTokers down here you'd be investing for tomorrow yeah you know the problem with you know i think there's a lovely quote i can't remember that but you know tiktok can only give you eyeballs you know there's a you know there's a brand that has been built out of a tiktok piece but that that eyeball is going to only stay for a certain time sorry to interrupt so this idea has come to me like like angels out of the blue you know what Yeah, go for it.

1:42:00So Seth Godin has a wonderful way of describing it. Say I give you a G to spend money, to spend on the restaurant. He says, he talks about the circle of us and a circle of now. And what he means by that is with a circle of us is how many people a decision affects. And a circle of now is the time frame. and so like and he talks so a baby's circle of us yeah a three-year-old circle of us and a circle of now is very short yeah a two-year-old circle of us is himself yeah and his now is now like i want i want mummy get me a biscuit fucking right now otherwise i'm going to throw my own bongo everywhere right they're going crazy right but as you get into and that's the example seth used right but as you get into business the circle of us um uh when you go to one site it's just your immediate team yeah and the circle of now is i.e the time frame is probably the next year yeah yeah as you get bigger yeah Seth's whole thing is your circle of us so how many people you feed how many staff you employ how many how big the impact of the brand is has to extend yeah and the circle of now yeah has to extend as well so instead of looking at me giving you a grand for a day you think how does this impact in 10 years and that's exactly what you've said it's like oh yeah if you have a really small circle of us and a small circle of now you just go and get loads of TikTokers down which would probably get quite a big people through the door but it'd be a flash in the pan bang they're on to the next thing but that grand invested bigger circle of us bigger circle of now it's so interesting so that's where you invest into 5, 10, 15 years time yeah it's interesting because I need to make more decisions based on it.

1:43:46Sometimes you get advice, but it doesn't mean you listen to it. Yeah, you take the easier route. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'll spend that money on. That's fascinating. That's so interesting. What's the difference between Indian culture and British culture in terms of ambition and hustle? How are they similar? How are they different? I think the hustle part is a lot different. I don't think the Indian culture, you know, right from Achalu, and I'm talking about, you know, I'm generalizing an Indian. Yeah, of course. These are poor prospects. I appreciate that. I like what you were saying earlier when we spoke, that if an Indian wanted to get into a top school in India, he has to fight with lax, 100 ,000 or more per seat.

1:44:39Whereas here in the UK, you know, one of the top universities, I think, I mean, there is a hustle, but it's not as deep as one. But you've got to fight with almost 100 ,000 people, but at the 100 ,000 people at the level, which is 100 times deeper than you, because everyone's going that extra mile doing. Education has always been given such an importance in Indian culture. It's just unbelievable to the fact that the farmer would go hungry to feed his, you know, to get his kids educated in a good school. Even if I took my example, my dad, again from middle caste family educated us in a British educated school in India to give us the platform that brought us where we are today he would sacrifice his own holidays or trips or whatever to make that happen and that is still true in today's day and age I feel that kind of hustle and there's a word called Jugar, I think people who are listening Jugar, Jugar, Jugar Jugar Jugaad Jugaad is a hustler so when you know you know it's true in today's day but there's more mobile holders in India than anywhere in the world even a farmer a beggar who's begging on the street has got a phone in his hand and like I said Dan if I can take you to Mumbai yeah mate let's do it man I'm offering it man yeah yeah that'd be sick so that you know kind of end of Jugaad is just phenomenal and British sorry continuing on your conversation so the point of everyone in India having a mobile phone and even a beggar on the street having a mobile phone the point of that is the juggard because no one in UK in India there's no social there is but it's next to nothing so if you're jobless if you don't have you know and you're starving on the street or you're stealing you know that extreme whereas there's social security here so there's always a blanket that supports you so there's never a need for you to go over and beyond for that jugad you know to hustle because I have no other means I have to hustle I have to beg I have to do that's the thing that differentiates Indian from the western culture and I feel that Indians like I said there are so many the intellect is there so if you give him a right candidate a platform and he would find in his own certain way to eliminate or elevate him himself in here whereas i don't see that here in uk and i i just think if when the passion is deep and you're working when you've got nothing and you want to achieve something the the struggle is a lot more beautiful and you feel achieve something here the challenge is that the aspirations also aren't that deep i feel the circles that i've been to i think they want a secure job second work five days a week india there was no such thing as five days a week we had to work six seven days a week you know make and i've seen my dad work seven days a week what did your dad do he was he was a dweller so he used to actually make ornaments he was a handcrafted oh wow yeah yeah so he would work so that's fascinating yeah so the The other thing I wanted to ask you about is Bollywood.

1:48:00So that features a lot, well, I've only been to this site, right? Yeah. Like, as you walk in, you've got all the Indian films. Yeah, yeah. But how does that, how is Hollywood, sorry, Bollywood, how does that play in your culture versus Hollywood in Western culture? Like, are they similar? Are they different? Oh, a lot different. So I think Bollywood has had such a significant impact on Indians, for sure. And I think the beauty of that is, you know, when you're reminiscing and things like that there's a song that comes to your mind every stage of your growth and indians sorry i'm gonna ask some really ignorant questions yeah so is bollywood it's like it's films and music or is it is it just the music like no no films and music in fact we have music in our films so you have uh the the actors doing a song sequence or something like that okay breaks into a song sequence when you're watching a movie um you know and bollywood in terms of the subconsciously, you know, in every time we, you know, when you hear Michael Jackson's Heal the World, there's a certain feeling you get, right?

1:49:09And Bollywood has always hooked Indians on that feeling. So they will always, IPL music, if you follow cricket and IPL, there's a tone that is played. So every time the Indian national song creates such emotions of music, Bollywood has always been that emotional connect for a lot of the Indians. And that's why you see, and I feel that's my theory, I might be completely wrong, but I feel that is one thing that connects. I've been in UK for 25 years, but I still have a love and affection for India because I'm born and birthed up in India. And it connects me through those Bollywood because I'm watching these movies, watching the songs.

1:49:48And there's always something that brings me back to India in a lot of the sense. and it's that you know kind of uh subconsciously affection that has been created with the songs with the music that has bollywood created and it's such a beautiful thing and it's called called soft soft power i think america has that soft power with hollywood for bollywood is now going mainstream in a lot of the so what so it's like is so it gives you like a like a sense of hope or a sense of a belonging, association community, because there's so many things that it brings together as Bollywood. I don't know if music food has been instrumental in a lot of our festivals as well.

1:50:33I don't know if you've been to Diwali. Diwali is a festival of lights and food. There's music which is a key part. There's a dance that we do and things like that. In every flipping festivals in India has got this two-associated music which has the connection with Bollywood and food I mean they are the two greatest things on planet you've heard of Indian weddings right yeah yeah yeah my mate Karin Kapoor yeah so he was he was gonna do he's Indian he's an Indian he's a really good mate of mine going to his wedding on end of this month he was gonna do it in India but it's like three fucking days and I was like mate like I've only got so much annual leave.

1:51:19That's so interesting. So, so, so, so there's like, there's this, it gives you that. Cause I know what you mean about songs. Like, you know, it's like, so I did the London marathon, right? And it was, it was hell on earth, but I saved this one song because I was like, they hit talk about the wall. Yeah. So I knew it was going to come right. I was, I was hoping it happened around 30 K and I was, it was kind of hot. I was just completely fucked. I was like, it wasn't run as high. It was run as hell. It was run as like, getting me out of here. But I had a song, so I had my AirPods ready, lots of road, and that is that song by ACDC, which is like, ding, ding, ding, ding, And I was like, I'm going to listen to that, and it didn't work.

1:52:00I ended up walking, but like, but I know what you mean, and like, there's a song by The Streets, which is like, ding, ding, ding, ding, and like, that gets me like, proper going, when I want to like, get after it. Mate, what's the yeah we've got we have to go this is good I could chat you for hours we'd have to go to Mumbai I want to take you up on that I want to go episode in Flippin that would be so sick or you will go ballistic if you like what you eat in here today you'll go crazy and then there's so much of colour so much of vibrancy and you know you'll see an extreme beggar on the Sabia street to a wealthy from the richest building that you will see someone housed in India is that paradox in terms of the extreme is just phenomenal way more extreme than here way more I need to ask you about some of the Reek's questions as well

1:53:04sorry Matt I've loved it, so good no no, thank you man I want to ask you so okay so the other part of this puzzle right going the desi mcdonald's the indian mcdonald's is a lot of businesses are leveraging delivery yeah to get access yeah without physical bricks and mortar stores yeah how are you using delivery with uber eats to to fund that vision or help that vision of us sat in a service station next to McDonald's having a burger and a chai? No, absolutely. I think 30 % of our business comes from delivery in third-party platforms. So I think, which means that, you know, if I've sold a million, what about 300 outfit has been consumed at home.

1:53:59So we take that really seriously in terms of how that product. So we've, in fact, we have commissioned our entire packaging reshuffle to be able to absorb and reflect that. Because if you're eating what about when it's fresh in here and you're eating what about which is transported from the store into a package and into the motorcycles that they take in and consume at home, needs to be, we want to change that. Currently, we are probably 40 % away. So what you would get here is 100%. What you would get in your home when it's delivered is about 70%. So we want to break that barrier. So that is driven by...

1:54:38What, in terms of the quality? Quality. Obviously, the temperature is in the same because it's dropped the temperature. It's also not, you know, the way we are packaging currently. How do you package it for delivery? So it's wrapped in a foil that has got perforation so it let the bread breathe so it's not as soggy when you get into the bread. Do you... I've never had the... What about... How do you start? What about... Well, yeah. On delivery. Yeah. But like, you can get like... You know how the Big Mac has its signature box? Yeah, yeah. Which actually we are doing. So we actually got a matchbox style, which will go in there and will retain.

1:55:11So when you open it, there's a theater that comes along when you take the whatever out. Packaging innovation is, well, I think it's the most simple yet hard thing to do in the world. Like often, like I'm just trying to think of products. So all Red Bull did is they were the first brand to put a drink in a slim can. Suddenly it stands out. there's a gin brand um that is called n gin yeah and it's instead of putting it in a gin bottle it's in a petrol can yeah and so literally and like packaging is so easy it's so easy but it's so hard yeah it's one of it's one of those paradoxes because putting a burger in a matchbox kind of style thing bang there's theater it's kind of playing with all my senses it's distinctive it's memorable so easy but so hard and it's like yes sorry so so that's interesting that's what one of the things I wanted to ask you so the packaging is going to have this storytelling piece yeah and also we deconstruct so one of our popular line is called pav bhaji which is like a mashed up you know vegetables with potatoes with spices and a mashed up curry was served with the bread we actually give all the components of it separate so you assemble it on site because if I assemble it assemble at home yeah so if you if I give you assemble the product that would get to your home would not even be 70%, it would be 30%.

1:56:32So we go to that extent to be able to do that. And people who know that food know how to consume it. Another example is, we call it the bombs. I don't know if you've... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had them, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like the yogurt. Is that like a pan puri? Pan puri, yes. Which is given separately. So if I put all the ingredients and give it to you, by the time it comes to yours, it'll be all meshy and decomposed. So we give them separately so that when you get to your home and you're consuming it, it's in the right format for you to consume it and feel you've got it from the restaurant.

1:57:09What's the art of using delivery to grow brand awareness? Like I said earlier, Dan, the accessibility is everything. you know a lot of the times you have people who wonder I'm you know I come from work I want to consume whatever power but I can't come to East Castle for various reasons Ubers and the likes have made it a lot easier to kind of bring those locations in place yeah it's interesting I always say like well I live with my brother but like the shopping habits like more often will not will just smash out like a delivery yeah because it's like by the time he actually goes to the shops can't be bothered yeah I can cook it all wash it all up I'm like mate it's cost me just as much money anyway I think it's different if you've got family yeah but yeah and then I think final question just like detail why like describe your products we'll clip this so we can get people but describe why you your product is the best and most affordable lunch in London I think ours is because you know firstly how much is it and what is it so So in terms of the entire menu, you think?

1:58:25Yeah, so just in terms of the Hero product. Yeah, I think where in central London would you get something that is filling for 2.95? I mean, if you give me that, then I've identified my competitor. To be quite honest, there's no one doing what we do in this space. And also it's flavorful. I mean, one bite of that waterpaw will blow you away. There's three sauces that goes with it. There's three chutneys that goes with it. The pain that we've gone through to create the bread that we have, no one else can do what we do. And I think that's the edge that we have in most of the others. And just describe what it is for listeners.

1:59:04So what about, again, like I said, it's an Indian burger, a vegetarian burger with potato, spiced up potato batter cooked and served in a lovely Portuguese bread inherited from Mumbai and with three chutneys which painstakingly takes us ages to build but that's what keeps the authenticity of it and it's a lovely product for you to try yeah it's like it's delicious deplorable Armageddon for your taste buds in the best way possible mate I've absolutely loved that bro thank you so much and we're going to have to get plane tickets to Mumbai bro absolutely and I actually mean it man I'm in man let's organise something when you've got a bit of...

1:59:49Wait, wait, we actually wanted to...