Dennis Rodman On Fame, Chaos, And Becoming An Icon

29:00And when you think that, you know, things are safe, it's not safe. And when you come to a safe haven, when you come up from a safe haven, it's like, oh, God, you know, all of a sudden things started as press. I'm like, oh, God, and all of a sudden you lose your mind. But with San Antonio, I didn't, he could be right there next to me right here. He'll say, how you doing? He'll talk to me. I'm going to say a word to him. I'm going to say one word to him. You know, the next thing you know, I start talking to him. He probably the only guy I talk to really every day, you know, and what else I didn't say two words to I just went to my job How much if at all do you think that helped you kind of keeping to yourself?

29:37I think it helped me a lot. I think it kept me focused. I kept me focused. You know, I didn't have a dad. I really didn't have a real dad I didn't have a mother. I think my mother was me and her we really don't have this correlation of son and mother But, you know, one day it'll come, but I've been by myself for so long. I mean, living by myself, I think I choose that. I choose that. That independence? Independence, you probably want to call it selfish or just being a dick. But, you know, I'm not a dick, but... It's not not to be a dick even if that's how some people may look at it at the time that don't know what you're thinking, right?

30:23Well, no, I'm just saying people can call me anything in the goddamn world. But people cannot say that I play for the money. You cannot ask anyone to say I play for the money. Ask anybody about that. If they say I play for the damn money, my God. I don't know. I probably lost more money when I was playing. I said, I lost more, but I was playing now. Get suspended doing this or that, yada, yada, yada. You know, so I think that, you know what, you know, throwing my jersey out, doing all this crazy stuff, you know, having sex in the court, touche. So it's all good, baby. 1998, before Game 4 of the NBA Finals, you're with the Chicago Bulls.

31:10You got a decent amount of flack for jetting off to wrestle with Hulk Hogan. What was the thinking behind that? Nothing. It just went. What do you mean? Phil Jackson gave me the range, do anything I wanted. Mike Jordan said, you know what, I don't care what he does off the court. As long as he come here and do his damn job, he can do anything he wants. And I'm the first player to probably ever have done that. In 1996, I was doing it. 1995, I was doing it. To 2001, I was going between games, going to wrestle, going to do this stuff like that. I was doing all these things. And you see people today are doing it in different ways.

31:57You know, they're trying to do everything in a book. I was the first guy they asked. I was the first athlete they asked for the dance on the stars. And I said, no. I said, I'm already famous. What the hell am I doing? I don't need to go to TV, go dance and be more famous. It made no sense. I didn't be more friends by my damn self. How common was it for you in between games during an off day during the NBA regular season to jet off to Vegas to party for a day? Oh, yeah, you know, go f***ing buck and screw for twos.

32:35Just straight up, bro, I'm sorry. I mean, but did you need that, though? Oh, no, I didn't know that. or Dillard Stone, you know, come on, man. Utah, you know, I love Utah. I love the people that, you know, I actually screwed a deal over, dude. You know, the guy that owes Carl's Jr. I know he was a Mormon. I went to Utah and told all the Mormons to suck my whatever. And guess what? I said, oh, really? I lost that contract. I didn't even know the guy was a Mormon. I said, oh, God. Okay, whatever, dude. I'm over it. So guess what? We still won. We still won. That's the most important thing. I lost a million dollar contract so I said okay whatever and I was the first guy to go to TV and my tattoos had tattoos in a burger stuff like that I had a major contract once you know hello life goes on no but I mean did you need that though to get away in your off days oh no get away dude it's nothing in Utah I mean not just in you I mean during the NBA regular season I would just sit everywhere you kidding me I would just do seriously take me that dollars take me Milwaukee, take me anywhere, dude.

33:42I would just sit out there game quick. What were some of your favorites? Let's see. Some of my favorites, I don't know, dude. I just go get a bus. I get a tour bus and just go. You know, I take the team. So I have the team to Atlanta City. And next thing you know, we come back the next morning. We all drunk and having a good time. Boom. Next thing you know, the coach is sitting right there. We're going to practice. Dennis, you ain't got no practice. You guys got no practice. They're drunk as hell. Drunk as hell, smoking cigars, everything. Oh, no way. You know, so. Was there on many of the teams one set of rules for you and sort of another set of rules for the other 11 players?

34:22No, believe me. I think if it's one set of rules, it's probably Michael and Scotty. They deserve that. They built that team. They built that organization. When I came there, I think it's more like, you know, I became almost the first fiddle because it wasn't the fact that I was the star of the show. is the fact that people related to me. And I think that, you know, when you, it's like saying you got the people in New Orleans and people work together and come together and build stuff, or it's people in New York or anywhere, Texas or anywhere in the world, people come together and build something, especially the hurricane, not the hurricane, the 20s that hit the Kansas and all the Midwest over there do, and people come together and just help each other.

35:05That's when you know people love you, when you know that they see that you're trying to help and give back. I want to take you back to a moment that you start your book speaking in great detail about April of 1993. You are sitting in the parking lot at the palace at Auburn Hills. early morning hours a loaded rifle in your lap contemplating suicide no I wasn't doing that and I try to correct that whole statement and I hold up part of that chapter of the book but in your book you write about it in the way in fact you even say you were those thoughts were going through your thoughts I was also going to run here, yes, absolutely.

35:58I just wanted to kill that individual. Not Dennis Rodman. I just wanted to kill the individual because I was too much of a follower. And what were the circumstances that sort of led up to that? I think the circumstance, the fact that everyone was dispersing from Detroit, I think that the organization started to get rid of certain key people of the team. And it was just like, you know, there was no more cohesion as far as a family thing. So I was basically by myself, I thought. And I had no family there in Detroit, even though I had the Genopolis's, I had the Dunn's, Nancy Dunn, Randy Dunn, their family.

36:38It was, I didn't have anybody, pretty much. And you wrote in your book to that point, from the outside, I had everything I could want. From the inside, I had nothing but an empty soul and a gun in my lap. Well, that's pretty much true. I mean, you know, outside you had everything you want. I mean, just like athletes. If you look at athletes today, you look at all the guys that want to be this, this, holy, then thou. They're actually, you know, they're actually lonely because they're their own entertainment. You know, I'm entertaining myself every damn day. But they got to entertain every day. You also wrote in your book, and you briefly alluded to this, I discovered I was ready to check out of this life if it meant I could keep from becoming the man I was becoming.

37:32Who were you becoming? Well, it was just, you know, I didn't want to, you know, something came on. When I went to San Antonio, something really revolved and evolved with me. I can tell you how, when, it just happened. I didn't just plan what I was doing. I didn't plan to dye my hair. I didn't plan to be a bad boy. I didn't plan to have tattoos. I didn't plan none of this. You know, I got bored of the game, yes. How conscious were you, though, of a need to sort of create, project an image for yourself? I never did that. I never wanted to create this. I never wanted to create this image. It just happened.

38:19I mean, you know, you always say you can feed the monster, but it's like, I never wanted to do this. I didn't want to do that. You know, if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably do it all over again. Why would you do it all over again? The way I did it. I mean, why? Because I think, you know, if you look in each individual's lives, you know, you always look back. And if you say, if you take one moment, you know, the whole saying, you take one moment out of your life, if you could do that over again, would you do it? Guess what? If you took that one movie, you do it over again, guess what?

38:55You wouldn't probably be there where you're at. If I were to say, okay, great. If I had a dad in my life, I wouldn't be where I was.

39:05So that sounds kind of up, but it's like, true story. If I had a dad in my life, it's okay, great. You're going to play football. This, this, this, this, this. You're going to do this, this, this, this. I don't think I'd be in basketball. So I think the course that was given me that life has offered me, I think that I took it in good ways and very good bad ways. I want to talk some just about your appearance and, you know, sort of part of what people, some of what people know you for. the first time you dyed your hair it was a really big deal when you came out took your hat off when you were with the Spurs tell me about how that did come about no obviously it just came out the blue we was uh it was in Vegas one time and we came back to San Antonio and I said boy let's go to let's go somewhere she want to go to a mall and we went to the mall and next thing you know this This guy asked me, come here.

40:10There was a guy from Salon, and I said, you know, he said, what do you want to do? He said, you want to do something with your hair? I said, well, do what you want. I sat there for like two hours, and the next thing you know, it was a Mohawk blonde. That's where it all got started. How many tattoos do you have? A lot. How about how many piercings? I just have a lot. Did you really get your scrotum pierced? Mm-hmm. What was the thinking behind that? Nothing. You know, what the hell are you talking about? He would've go there, brother, come on. Mr. Conservative guy. This guy's nuts. This guy's nuts, right?

40:53He wants to know all this crap. Okay, great, I'll tell you. You want to know, I'll tell you. Painful experience? Oh, no, dude, no, no. You know, once you have so much pain in your life, I mean, you put pain in your body. And I believe that with people, when you have so much pain in your life, and I went to a pain-driven year, and the more pain I got, the more driven I got. You know? How so? When you lose your family, when you lose your wife or girlfriend, or your family, your kids, and stuff like that, you won't try to find any avenue to leave that. that real pain. So basically I started tattooing myself to get enamel to some of the things that I was going through.

41:43You said also, you wrote this in your book, that you like dressing up in women's clothes. I still do today. Why? What do you like about it? Nothing. I mean, you know, if you got a great body, show it, right? What do you recall from the time you told people you were going to be getting married but you actually showed up what it really was part of the book promotion in New York City in the wedding dress. Not that I was flying back from London doing a movie and it was like eight of us and I had the number one makeup artist in the world, he died of AIDS, bless his soul, and we was coming back doing a book promotion and he said what do you want to do Dennis, what do you want to do for your promotion?

42:27I said, great. I don't know, how about a wedding dress, something cool. They said, I'm going to marry myself. It just came out like that. It wasn't designed and nothing. They said, oh, that's great. That'd be awesome. Next thing you know, they got on the phone. In the plane, they got on the phone, so calling all these designers, this, this, this, this, making this dress for me. And next thing you know, we got to the hotel. They had all these designers up there measuring this, this, this, doing all this crap with me and this, and they're doing makeup and stuff like that. So, so I, you know, they start playing, I start playing, okay great, give me eight girls in tuxedos, this, this, this, give me horse and carriage, give me all the stuff like that.

43:05But literally I know, this is going to blow up. I didn't even notice, next day I know I get in the horse and carriage, it was actually raining. It was raining, if you see the videos, it was raining. Not hard, it was just laying and stuff like that. Coming down Fifth Avenue, they shut down Fifth Avenue. It was so many people down there. So many people. I walked two blocks to the bookstore, and the girls beside me, I walked right in the middle of them, and just saw people everywhere. I'm like, damn, baby, what's up? What did you think of the reaction? No, it was a trip. I said, wait a minute. I expect a couple hundred people, maybe, you know, this, this, this, but in New York, and we in Chicago, kick your ass off the guy's time.

43:49In New York? In New York? come on I said wow and I mean it was probably 180, 190 photographers around the world and next thing I could believe it. It's true I said wow thank God I had that belt on because I was trying to wait a minute because it was just people I mean it was everywhere and I said you know that's one of the great stories in history as for sports icons that right there you know a lot of sports people today are trying to emulate what I do what I do what you know and it's like wearing wedding women's clothes or doing certain things I mean even guys with tattoos I started that long time ago and it is it's just one of those cult things who do you think there are the guys today that really try and emulate what you do I mean you know you got I want to test and try to do it a lot.

44:45But, like I said, I've done it. I mean, I don't knock anybody. You want to do it, do it. And it's awesome. It's awesome. I think that, you know, if you can pull it off, pull it off. I mean, but people can see right through you. I mean, with the telecommunication today, I mean, for some phones, the computers, the websites, the Facebook, stuff like that, you can't get away with anything. They see everything you do. It's like back then, they didn't see anything you did. I can do anything I want. But now you can't do anything right. At times during your NBA career, you would drive through the toughest parts of town in the city, your cities you would be in.

45:24Why do so? That's remind me of where I came from. And it reminded me of the fact that, you know what, there's just white people. Even today, I do it today. I mean, I can go down the street up here, down the corner up here on Oakland Boulevard. I see all the people. I actually stop. We'll stop and give these guys money, man. You know, I've been there. I ain't been. I mean, you can't say just because I'm driving a Maserati or a Rolls Royce or a Bentley or a Porsche or something like that, that you can't stop and at least get someone some love, you know, and sit there and talk to them and stuff like that.

45:55You're not telling me what you've been through. I know what you've been through. I know what you're going through. Just sit there and have a conversation with them. That's the most important thing right there, bro. And a lot of people, you know, they want to do it for commercial reasons or do it for satisfaction. It's like for to redeem some of my people. It's still because it's natural for me. It's natural. I trust like this every day. Every day, just like them, every day. You would occasionally bring somebody home with you that you would meet driving through these tough neighborhoods. What was the reasoning for that?

46:28Just do it all the time. I used to do it all the time in Detroit and Chicago. What would you do? Just bring them home. I'd take them, you know, I'd just sit there and talk. I'd take him to dinner to talk and take him home. I said, what? I'd take him to the Gap or Old Navy or something like that. That's buy him all these clothes and say, here, here's 500 bucks. Take care of yourself. How would you describe what your life was like growing up? Just like any typical black ghetto little person. Fun, I had fun though. I had fun. Don't get me wrong, I had fun though with the little things that we had.

47:04But it was all right. It was all right. My mother did the best job she could. Your father, Phil, left when you were, I believe, three years old and never came back. What did your mother tell you about it at the time when you were younger? I really didn't care. I really didn't care. You didn't care? No. It didn't matter to me. I was over it. It doesn't matter. Even today, it doesn't matter. You know, like I said, I'm living life, man. Living life right now. And like I said, you're not my dad, you're my friend. You're my dad, you're my friend. So, you know, let's leave it at that. You know, it's not I don't hate you.

47:44I don't hate anybody in my life. You know, so I think that, you know, just to be honest with you right now, these questions that you ask me, I think, you know, it's very hard to answer because you, you, you, you, You know what I'm saying? I mean, I've answered these questions so many times. I mean, really so many times, and it's just like, it's so redundant to me. You know, I'm not disrespecting you, but I'm just saying, you know, you know, I don't really want to remember that's my damn dad or my mother or stuff like that. I mean, you want to talk about something that's very cool? Let's talk about something very cool.

48:22So, I mean, I'm just, I'm not trying to be, you know, dickhead, I'm just saying, you know. Not into talking. Oh, no, but you don't want to do? Do this a great interview. Go ahead. No, no, no. I mean, if you don't want to talk about it, I'm not going to... I'm just busting your balls. I'm just... I'm just busting your balls, man. Come on, man. He just took it all serious as s***. No, no, no. I don't want to. If you want to talk about it... He was doing it seriously. He said, what the hell are you talking about? It's all good. So just bust your balls, man. No, I mean, do you want me to... Oh, you do.

48:56You say anything. Actually, you ask me anything. But I'm just saying, you know, I think we covered a lot so far. Tell me about how you met the Riches. How I met the Riches? It was by accident. By accident. You ended up becoming lifelong friends with Brian Rich. Brian Rich, yeah. He was, I think, 13 at the time you met him. I think he was maybe 11 or 12. Okay, and you were, I think, around 22. I was 22, 22. What was the dynamic of that relationship like? It was actually, from start to finish, great. You know, when you have a screaming white kid coming to a gym and you have a black guy from the ghetto, has nothing.

49:38And when you go talk to this kid, this kid named Brian, and screaming and crying because he didn't want to be there, then I go up and talk to him and say, oh, what are you doing? What's going on? Oh, screw you. Okay, great, cool. I'll go right back over there where I'm going. So you stay over here. But that right there, like I said, most of my life as far as being famous or being in the industry has actually been pure accidental. I've been to the right place at the right time. And that's pretty much what it is. How well do you recall that first day Brian brought you home? Oh, that's easy. He brought me home.

50:22He asked me to come home with him and it was on a Friday after the camp was over and he said, you want to come to dinner? I said, yeah, great, cool. So he brought his dad. Dad was shocked when he saw a six-foot-a-black guy. He thought it was going to be a five-foot-four white kid. And he said, we want you to come to dinner. Great, cool. Went to dinner. Went down to this This is a small town, about 600 people, one red light. Went to the house, got this big table like that, right there, all crystals and all the nice silverware and stuff like that. I never ate like that, I never saw stuff like that.

51:01And you know, and the kids take me around, you know, you sit right here beside me, this is, this is like, we're like best buds. And we get there and next thing you know, boom, We had a tea bone steak, baked potato, corn and corn, I mean, iced tea. And, you know, it was so cool, the fact that this little kid, I mean, probably this tall, maybe, little kid, and I had this tall glass like this, right? And it was about, yeah, thin. And my lips were big. He said, oh, you can't drink out of that. Give me that. So he went in the cabinet and got this big mug, right? He said, hey, drink out of this, okay?

51:36So I agree. You know, it was cool. I said, all right, cool. I'll drink out of that, right? So they say no. So he asked his mom and dad at the table, he said, Mom, can you spend the night? And they literally dropped. I said, what? You know, you're in a white, you know, country town, and they just, you know, you've probably seen one black person probably in 30 years. But it was funny that the fact that they had to, they got off the table, went in the other room, and you could hear them just talking loud. Oh, we can't do this. We can't do it. No way. No way. this this and you see his two brothers outside looking in the window they actually look in the window at him so they came back and said okay then it's you stay one night and they say no it's white kid jumps up oh yeah come on let's go let's go let's go if you ever seen the movie the toy that's why I was Richard Pryor I was going just like that dude he was here I was okay great go outside shoot basketball outside the court at a court outside I had great that sits all night.

52:34Then we come back in, next thing you know, you know, I said, okay, great. So, what am I sleeping at? He said, well, you sleep with me. I said, no, where am I sleeping at? No, come on. I got this little trundle bed. If you got the bed here, got a little bed, just slide out like this, like that. So he slept this thing. I said, you sleep right here. I said, oh God, no way. And I'm usually like, you know, doing my own thing. So I slept, I went down and slept. He got up here. mom said oh wow you know that is kiss this kiss some baby I love you Brian good night she left five minutes late she came back in good night Dennis cool then the next morning the next morning she came back she came in a room came in room and I'm laying on the trauma bed and next thing you know the mom comes in And her son's gone.

53:29And next thing you know, I'm laying like this, and the little boy's right here laying beside me. And mom ran out crying. Really? And she thought I probably did something to her son. And the kid heard her. He said, no, no, no, no. No, no. Which was nothing. I didn't know he was there until I woke up. I said, wait a minute. He was there. Next thing you know, he said, no. And from my day on, I stayed with him for three years. It's interesting you say that because the mom, Pat, says you really had a profound impact on Brian because I think it was a year prior. He's a young kid, had a hunting accident where he ended up shooting and killing his best friend.

54:13I didn't even know that until a while, a couple of years after. They never told me that because they didn't want to bring it up to him. But they told me a story that he was after a hunting accident and he's loading his gun. a shotgun. Next thing you know, he cocked a, he loaded and cocked it like this and the gun went off and his best friend was right in front of him and shot a hole in his stomach and killed him. And that's how everything evolved because he was staying with him in bed for four months, five months. He wouldn't go to sleep because he had nightmares every night. The mom pad also said, worm, which you know - She always called me Worm.

54:54She never called me Dennis. I was like, Worm, you know, a country accent. Pat said Worm brought Brian out of the deep depression he was in, but at the same time, I think Brian helped save Worm. How do you say he impacted you? Oh, it kept me actually interested in life because, you know, I really didn't have anything, you know, basically have anything as far as like a relationship basis-wise. I didn't have a relationship with my mother. I didn't have a relationship with my sisters. I recently had a relationship in the community I was in. And then once I got there, my interest came back as far as being around individuals.

55:33And we just, we had fun every day. We just had fun. Me and him, I mean, he was probably 10 years younger than me, but we just had fun. I mean, I didn't look at him as a little white kid. I looked at him, wow. We just, we did the same thing all the time. And we got so used to each other. He followed me around every day, 24 hours a day. What do you think you most learned during your time with the Riches? Understanding to just be humble man. Be humble and live life man to the fullest and they they didn't care about the money they had money they didn't care they didn't care about money. And I you know I could have been one of those guys okay great I was all in America first year could have went to another school and probably took some money and did the property you know wrong thing but no I stayed there and worked my ass up every year.

56:20Got up at 5 30 in the morning, worked 10 hours a day, right there picking you know peanuts and stuff like that, plowing every day, getting cows, casering cows every day. After graduation you end up taking a job as a janitor at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport. At that time in your life what did you think of your future plans? I have one. There was no future. It was more like, okay, great. You're going to jail, you're going to be a drug dealer. That was my future, right? There's no ifs and buts about it. And then the watches at the airport, how did that all unfold? No, it was when they'll see monkey do monkey things.

57:06You see somebody do something, you do it. And guess what? when you when you have money and you think this is very easy you know it's what's like the world's dumbest criminals that was my ass that was me the world's dumbest criminal i forgot they got cameras you think about that what did you you stuck a broom through i said a broom whatever that fits that's what i did but it was it's just i mean you can see that video it's probably the most dumbest thing one of the probably dumbest thing in the world because you know you don't think about the cameras you think about you know just you know but you know but I did some smart I did do some smart thing I stole the watch that was dumb and plus you know I thought I was like cool but and there were 50 watches right 50 to 55 watches yes but I did one thing that was executed saved my ass is the fact that I didn't sell them I just gave them away that saved my ass because if I would have sold them and made money from it I've probably been in jail for two to five years.

58:06That's a major felony, especially in that report. So I just gave them away. I didn't even sell them. They came and arrested me. They went and got all the watches back. What did the cops say when they found out you gave them away and didn't sell them? I didn't know what they were going to say. You know, you're just one of these guys. So at 19, you said you're like five foot nine. Then over the next two years, you end up sprouting to six foot eight. You said that at that point after you'd really grown, basketball came to you almost easy. How so? I said everything in my life is basically, it's actually that.

58:46You know, I said in my book, I said this quote too, I said, guess what? I stole everything I saw in my community. I don't know why I keep saying it because I've seen a lot of guys that should have been very rich and famous, so successful, and go to jail, get killed and stuff like that. I've seen it a lot, dude. And I was a nobody. And I walked to the gym and see them every day. And next thing you know, I started growing and growing, started getting better and better. Next thing you know, it's like, wow, I'm here. At 22 years old, you end up deciding to accept a scholarship to southeastern Oklahoma.

59:21Why did you? Because it seemed for a while that really was something you were less than interested in? I don't really. I wanted to go back to school. I wanted to go back to school. I had to do something. You know, living on the streets wasn't what the shit was. When did that kind of, you make that decision that you wanted to, you know, It was my first main priority to go to school. You know, my first thing is to stay in the house and not be homeless. That's the first thing. But when those guys came in the door, you know, That was an opportunity for me. I could have said, I could have easily said no.

1:00:02I could have easily said that. If I would have said no, I wouldn't be here. Very simple. If I would have said no, get away. Hell away. Because other people had called you too, right? The other coaches and you just wouldn't answer the phone? I never answered the phone. They called me all the time. I said no. What? I talked to them. They showed up. Instead of calling, they showed up. If I would have said no to those guys at the door, they would never came back. Sex. Oh, you're just going there, huh? You might as well. You're going there. You brought it up a million times already. I'm going to go there.

1:00:35Guess what? I'm going to go there with you. That's fine. You wrote in your book you were a virgin until 20 years old, which, you know, some people would probably be surprised to hear Dennis Rodman was a virgin. Oh, now. Yeah, back then when I was like, when I was actually, when I first jacked out, I was like,

1:00:57about 20. But when I first had sex as a girl upstairs, wow, that was a mistake. Okay, so she didn't get pregnant or nothing like that. But I'm saying, damn, you know, you take what you get to get away. You take what you get to get away because you gave me choosy, because you know what? You ain't got the damn money to sit there. Okay, great. I'm going to have a good Camaro, a good Trans Am, a good Firebird with T-Tops. and all that crap like that. Or maybe a Monte Carlo, you know, in the club and hanging out at McDonald's. And guess we got a badass girl over here, you know. She won't, what? Go ahead.

1:01:36I was just going off, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I was just going off, dude. How would you describe your sexuality? Well, I'm cool. I actually had that question, you know, I actually had your scrotum. My scrotum, it's not Pierce. I see this guy's good. This guy is good. This guy is awesome. You got to put this in, bro. You got to put it. It's like, what do you call it? Outtakes? Okay. Outtakes, damn it. It's going to be a full episode of the series. Oh, no, I don't care. People have a kick out of it, you know. You said once you had a transsexual lover. How true is that? No, dude. I had people in Chicago that works at this place called the Baton.

1:02:26And Mimi Marks literally became my best friend. She's, you know, I wouldn't say she's transsexual, but she's a, you know, she looks like a woman. But when she has the big-ass titties, he has big titties. But I mean, looks just like Marilyn Monroe. I mean, looks just like Marilyn Monroe, literally. I mean, he'll tell you that. I'll be like, damn. That's just a guy. Yeah, that's a guy. And we hung out literally every day, dude. I mean, every day at the practice, I go pick her up. And we go out, just eat lunch, just hang out just all the time. Just hang out, just friends. And I go see the shows all the time.

1:03:09And people thought that we and her were lovers. Me and him was lovers, but we just hung out all the time. I mean, literally every day. She came to every game. I mean, her and our friends came to the game. It was cool. You told Playboy magazine once that you would visualize being with men. Oh, yeah. I think a lot of guys, that's very mentally active-wise. Because when you, I mean, it comes to a point, and, you know, if you go back in the 1700s, 1600s, if you go back then, being with a guy was a s**t. Are you kidding me? Look at Julius Caesar, all the goddamn rulers of the world. they was gay as hell.

1:03:48Are you kidding me? My God. It's like, okay, Alexander, go him. Okay, s***. And they did. They would sit right there and say, great, you're going to, mm-hmm, okay. And guess what? It was cool. And then when you get to the 1900s and the 20th century, boom, everybody just tripped the hell off. But all of a sudden now, you know, it's a great, very great community. The gay community is very cool because gay community really drives a lot of things about this country. They drive a lot of things about this country. And all of a sudden now, things are so, so cool with the gay community. And it's cool because all of a sudden, they need to be segregated now.

1:04:30They can just, okay, great, that's cool. You know, look at the guy on 360, that guy, the news guy. He's gay as f***ing. Guess what? He's still making$25 million a year. It's still TV s***. They all are. And guess what? It is cool now. You know, back then it was like, oh my God, he's gay. If I told people I was gay today, they'd say, oh, we knew. We knew. We just wait for him to come out. We knew. Next. That's how I've set my life up, pretty much. But people say, okay, great. We already know. Nothing new. Uh. This guy, he gave me a picture. No, I mean, you gave the history of it. So, I mean, but that's something that you do that you like?

1:05:18I'm sorry, like what? Oh, like visualizing it. Oh, no, I think if you qualify to understand about life, you have to visualize what it's going to be like, at least visualize what you think it's going to be like, and put yourself in there. put yourself in the mix. Your relationships, Carmen Electra, how did the marriage with Carmen come about? That was sex. That was sex in the Hall of Fame. What? It didn't come about at all. Me and Carmen, you know, Carmen's Carmen. I think Carmen's a great girl. I mean, she's awesome. Very beautiful girl. We hit off right away. We got married. Less than six months.

1:06:09It was cool. Man, we had a blast. We had a blast. I mean, you know, we're still friends today. How about your most memorable time with her?

1:06:24It was good. I remember a time, I think, that, you know, when... When I played Pearl Jam for her. When you played Pearl Jam for her? Mm-hmm. What about that? No, I put earphones on her when I was making love to her, and she started crying. I don't think she was crying for me, but it was cool. It was cool. It was cool, bro. So the 1994 NBA All-Star Game. Madonna says on national television, I think Dennis Rodman is cool as s***, and I want to meet him. When you see that, what are you thinking? Not a damn thing. Really? I thought it was a joke. she was chasing me in San Antonio. Every day I go to practice, I said, Dennis, Madonna's keep calling for you.

1:07:14I said, who? Madonna. I said, the singer? He said, whatever. I just kept blowing up, kept blowing up. The next thing you know, she actually showed up. I'm like, okay, what? What, what, I said, jump up and down because it's Madonna? No, it was Madonna. You know, and I think Brian and my friend could tell you that you know we sat in a pool do literally in pool do in Miami down the street here in Miami and we sat outside in the pool do and looked in the ocean I said what the doing here bro I go to practice I wasn't even thinking about her I'm like whatever great Madonna I thought the music sucked you know bubble gum and all that like a virgin whoo great cool all that crap So I didn't really give a s***.

1:08:03I want to take you back a couple months to an event that precedes the Hall of Fame. And it was, you know, another moment in which you were honored when your jersey was retired by the Detroit Pistons. What did that mean to you? I didn't deserve that. I was so happy. I didn't deserve that. You said that in the press conference, too. I didn't deserve it because I wasn't that long enough to get my number retired. I mean it'd be different if it was more like okay great I was a very major part of that organization. I was more of as a piece of the puzzle and I was there for seven years. I actually didn't become somewhat noticeable probably my third year fourth year in that organization and after that it pretty much went downhill and I think that I shouldn't have got my number retired but it was it was great you know I just made me feel good because the people like they still like me there and um and I was sending people I said it'd be shocking if Chicago retired my number what do you think the likelihood is it's a good chance what's a good chance what would that mean to you?

1:09:21America and the world, I mean, just because, not because I'm one of the greatest players in the world, Mike and Scotty, it's just the fact that those people, they love you so much. I mean, it's like a sport, it's just so fanatics about people that respect, you know, what they do. And I think Mike and Jordan gave them so much love, Scotty, so much love. I mean, all the people that, especially anyone that played in Chicago, the baseball, the hockey, anybody, they just love them, man. And it's like, you can go back to today and they just hug you, embrace you. And it's hard to get that feeling from anyone around the country, man.

1:10:00It's hard. What did it mean to you to be inducted into the Hall of Fame? Well, I think if you caught my speech in the Hall of Fame, I really didn't say anything about me. It was about people around me. What I felt. And it was hard. It was very difficult. I couldn't do it. and get up there five seconds I was going nuts. Seriously, wow dude, I tried to get Phil Jackson to talk for me, he would just go ahead. I said, oh God, you know. But you know what, for me it was so refreshing the fact that, you know, that's what people relate to. I can show the real individual, instead of the guy that dressed up in women's clothes, was a guy that dressed up in all these, there's a lot of clothes, could be the tough guy, could be the bad ass, he screws all the women in the world, but he has his side that God don't have a lot of guys love to do.

1:10:59And I did, I always do it, you know? And I had my family right in front of me. I was talking directly to them. I wasn't talking to anybody else but them. I said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I wasn't, I haven't been a father, I haven't been a dad or been a son. Sorry about that. that basically like that. And a lot of guys cannot do that. And I mean, really like that. And I think, you know, I wasn't trying to do that to get people to like me. I'm always like that. Why was it important to you to use that moment, such a public place, to convey those sentiments to them? Because I never, all my interviews, I never talk about me.

1:11:40I hate talking about me. I hate talking about the fact what I've done. I talk about people that's around me that help me, that helped me that's just very, very, very important to my development of life. And, you know, if you've seen my mother, I mean, and my kids, they said they were so happy, because my kids never seen me play. And, you know, people think, and I have a wife, she was right there. It was just cool, and Phil Jackson, he's got Scottie Pippen right there. That was good that he came. I just want people to understand that, you know what, Because you see a lot of athletes today get emotional TV.

1:12:19It's a lot. It's a lot. It don't hurt to cry, you know. So it'll make you less of a person if you cry because, you know, we all got to cry flesh out, you know, the demons and all the activity that life has to offer and try to start a clean slate. Why do you think you became so emotional up there? Easy. My life. My life. simple as that in my life you know and any better roses you know you can always hide behind money and fame you know it's high behind that but you don't know behind the closed doors what's really going on and so basically i just let all the doors open there you go that is right there you spoke about your children when you were up there how would you explain what they mean to you Oh, that mean a lot to me.

1:13:12I mean, I got four kids, two was there, two was at home. That mean a lot to me. That mean a lot to me. I mean, just because, just to see their faces, just to see them, you know, just see when they go to school and saying that, oh, your dad's a, your dad's a, dress like wearing his clothes. Guess what, my dad's in the Hall of Fame, shut up. You know, so basically, just give him, just give him that little boost of confidence. Okay, great, you know what? I can walk around the school now, great, I'm cool, you know, I'm cool, because kids like that, you know, that little status you know they want to walk around over there the chip on his shoulder stuff like that but this way they have a good chip not a bad chip it's a good chip and they ain't gonna be like you know I'm cocky my dad's this no yes they can stop you know give them all the little you know the heckle and jekyll jokes and stuff like that what's it been like to see them grow up oh it's cool they just growing up real fast they live in California I live here in Florida but when I see him I'm like oh damn hold of you now no kidding no they said wow you like five foot eight I mean I just saw you a month ago I said wow and just growing up quick and uh it's it's awesome because you know it's just like why you're saying it's like those saying just yesterday they were just only two years old you know so it's like now they're like 12 13 years old they go real quick.

1:14:33Phil Jackson, why select him to introduce you at the Hall of Fame? Why not? He's a great candidate. I mean, he came to me as a friend. And why not? Great guy. Great guy. I mean, he brought his wife, Jeannie Buss, that owns the Lakers, so it was cool. I saw her get emotional. It was cool. I said, oh, Jeannie. Dad, Jerry. You saw Jeannie get emotional? Oh, I saw her get emotional. I was getting emotional. I was like, oh, God, she's getting emotional. I was like, you know, just watching everybody. Yeah, she always gets emotional. You recently turned 50 years old. I mean, do you still party as much as you?

1:15:23Absolutely. Are you kidding me, dude? Come on. I know at some point over the years your friends have had concerns about all of the parting. Oh yeah. Where do you come down on all of that? Well, I said everything in my speech. I said one day I'm going to come to the point where I say, hey, you know, enough is enough. Oh, absolutely. That part is easy. That part is easy. I mean, you know, you can always visualize yourself as, you know, when you get older and people always say the old saying, you know. you know, I think I'm getting older because I'm thinking more. I'm thinking more how life works.

1:15:59And, you know, and I'm getting to that point. I'm thinking more, but at least in a good way. When I was back in, like, 35, 36, hello. You take me to the rest, call to the four C's, and help me, have a good time. So, you know, like, you know, I'm sorry. But I'm just saying, though, even today, you know, like last night, it was awesome. You should have been there, man. You should have brought you to the film crew here. It's been awesome, dude. No, but I mean, there was a point a couple years ago where you stepped away from the drinking. You were completely sober. Oh, I was completely sober for two years, dude.

1:16:35Yeah, absolutely. What was that period like for you? Oh, nothing. I got less sex and smoked cigars. I mean, how did your body feel, though? My body was cool. Why start up again, then? I was bored. You were bored? Very simple. When do you think enough will be enough? I think as I get older, you know, I think I'm regressing and saying to myself, oh, s***, enough's got to be enough because I got to be a father, I got to do something because I can't die alone. You know, at least I want to have somebody to love me. Somebody to love me. I mean, that way I can't have everybody say, okay, great, he just only does this, this, this, this, this, this, you don't care about us.

1:17:18I got to have some communication. or some type of avenue with my kids or someone that's in my life. What makes you happy today? What makes me happy? I think what makes me happy, I think the fact that the gratification that actually I'm still living. I think that, you know, I believe in, actually I believe in people now that I did before. I believe in certain people that actually like my dumb ass. I used to always think that it was very superficial, that people look at you because of the money, the fame, and the glory, and the accolades that you've done. But now, like I said, as I'm getting older, I'm actually looking at it in a different, in a wise way.

1:18:07And so I think that that's what makes me happy more than anything. It keeps me persevering and moving in a good direction. and I said you know what I burned both end of the candles I said on my speeches I burned both end of the candles everyone know that and I'm still here you know you got the Jimmy Hendry you got the Jim Morrison you got the Janis Joplin you got the girl just died Amy Whitehouse or whatever name and I say all those people died at 27 years old at 27 years old brother they're more famous dead they were living they're making more money now to living I mean look at look at look at the Elvis's look at the Michael Jackson those guys they're making billions my my role billions being dead I'm still living I'm still living people thought I'll be dead literally at 40 or 45 because of where I was burning the count of both ends.

1:19:10Like I said, I'm surprised I'm staying here, but guess what, something is keeping me holding on for a good day for me, for my good day. Something's keeping me holding on. Why do you think you are still here? I guess I'm persevering, I'm persevering. Somebody has a good hold on Dennis Robbins' life. Somebody has a great hold and a great grasp. And hopefully that one day I will be in this grace of love. And that day I said, you know what, I apologize. Should have been better. That's it for now. If you enjoyed listening to my chat with Dennis Rodman, make sure to check out some of my other interviews with NBA stars, including Shaq, Charles Barkley, Steph Curry, and Jason Tatum.

1:19:53You can hear those wherever you get your podcasts and also watch video clips on my YouTube page. Just go to youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. And before you go, please remember to leave a rating and review. they go a long way in helping us grow this podcast. Thanks again for listening.