Kelsey Grammer: Emmy Winning Actor

26:15And so it was an affectation, really. It was like a trick that helped me to stay fresh, to look real. So you went to Juilliard on scholarship, yet you still had to take two jobs daily, I think, to make ends meet. Yeah, yeah. Well, what I did was the summer before I took two jobs so I didn't have enough cash to kind of get through the year. And that was when I was a night man at a hotel and I worked on a construction site in the daytime. And I actually used to run from one or the other. After the job would close at 6 a.m. at the hotel, I would run over and start work on the construction site. What were the hours?

26:57That was 7 to 3, basically. And then it was 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. on the, and I would do the laundry a lot of the time on the hotel one and rake the beach, brush the tennis courts, clean the tile and swimming pool, just stuff like that. I liked work. How much money did you have? I ended up with$700 by the end of the summer. And it got me through till the spring next year. Well, I mean, yes, but you had to be creative. What led you to sleeping in the park? Well, that was because it was still warm enough I could actually sleep there for only a few weeks, really. But I could sneak behind a certain bush and cover myself with a newspaper, and I was fine.

27:41And I showered over at Juilliard. What do you remember from that? I mean, you were sleeping in the park, though. It was completely safe. I'd been camping when I was a kid. I mean, that's a little different. It wasn't really much different than that. I mean, it really wasn't. You won't camp in the park in New York City. Nobody was really around. You didn't see anybody. So it was all right. You know, I never had any real experiences there. I had to, you know, one time we got, I took the train too far on the independent line. I ended up in Harlem. And some guy looked at me. It was like 3 a.m. I'm standing there on one side of the track.

28:14And he looks over like this. He goes, hope you make it home. I thought, oh, hell. But I'm like, you know what? Whatever it was, there was always something that kept me safe. What do you think going through that period, though, taught you about money and savings? Well, it taught me to be pretty frugal. you know, and I'm a bit of a spendthrift in my heart. I think that you should live beyond your means a little bit. You should take risks like, you know, build a brewery. You know, money's made to be spent a little bit. You're supposed to actually be in the game, you know, put it to good use, but you also should be smart about how far you overextend.

29:02You know, I mean, everybody overextends a little bit, But, yeah, I try to keep it within reason. How did you figure out that balance early on, though? Well, early on it was simpler because, you know, you just knew you couldn't do that. And I was always willing to sacrifice my body for the sake of survival, which meant, you know, I'll sleep in the elements, I'll get an apartment, I'll drive a motorcycle instead of get a car, you know, stuff like that. There was always a way of shaving the budget to a point where you could survive and still feel like you were thriving. Because I always felt rich.

29:38I always felt like I was doing great. I mean, if I could buy a quarter pound of salami and a hard roll, I was a happy guy. So there was a period in which during your early acting days where you auditioned something like 100 times over four months. 100 auditions, yeah. And what made you realize that if you really wanted to be an actor, you had to give up the waiting job? Oh, that was interesting. Now, I'd had some success in acting by then. I mean, at least I'd had a couple of jobs. I worked in San Diego for almost two and a half years, three seasons, three summer seasons. And I'd stayed through the winter and did some shows then.

30:15I ended up doing maybe 13 plays during that amount of time, which was, you know, just great. And I went back to New York and did a job in, And, oh, did a job off-Broadway for, you know, what was Subway Fair. That was one of the big things we'd get, which was 75 cents at the time. And did a couple of other plays, like readings and stuff like that. And then I one day walked into work where I was working at O 'Neill's on 57th Street and 6th Avenue, which is now the Rude or something or other. It's still there. The restaurant's still there. And I suddenly thought, you know what? You're not going to be an actor as long as you're a waiter.

31:01And that's when I said to the guy, I said, you know, I got to quit. I don't know why. It's just time. And his name is Michael, I remember. He's a nice, nice guy. And he said, well, okay. Sounds crazy to me, but okay. And I got a job the next day. And I was an actor ever since. Well, the rest is history. Christopher Plummer. the Wednesday matinee play. Yeah, very challenging, very challenging. What did you say and what did you do? Well, this is a good story. It's a fun story. I really like Chris. It took us a while. Football acting. Because Chris would just throw you around if you couldn't keep up with him, he'd throw you around.

31:43And, you know, I mean, more power to him. I celebrate him now because he actually, I was at a point in my life when I thought, boy, maybe this isn't for me. and maybe that was partially working with Chris, I don't know. But I'd finally gotten fed up. I'd realized that I broke my foot several months previous because I had ended up too far stage left. I didn't get to my light. Chris had pulled me around really hard and I broke my foot. And I thought, and I heard a crack, you know, I thought, what the hell is that? So the same set of circumstances occurred on this particular matinee day and I suddenly, like all this rage came up in me And I grabbed ahold of him and I threw him as hard as I could, sort of ended up offstage.

32:24And I did whisk or something in his ear that wasn't particularly pleasant. We can bleep it. Well, I just can you and tossed him. And like really tossed him. Oh, I really tossed him, yeah. And then he came storming back out on stage. And he just gave me that look. And I thought, well, this is it. I'm fired now. This is fine. But what was weird was from that time on, we had the best time. It was just, he just needed to know he wasn't gonna, you know, get away with the stuff he usually got away with anymore. And it turned out to be a great experience. So, in the end, I credit him with a lot. He prepared me for, you know, other actors can be challenging.

33:11Other actors will, you know, run you right over. and some of them are in that, some of them don't. Some of them don't really deserve to be given the credit for it, but he's talented enough that he actually had earned it. You just had to stand up to it. Christian Slater's mom's responsible for getting you one of your early soap opera gigs. Yes, yeah, yeah. Mary Jo Slater became a pal. I arrived from San Diego with my girlfriend then, Ellen, who was doing a... She had an audition for One Life to Live. And I just came along with her. And drove her nuts. So Slater's sitting there. And I walk in with Ellen.

33:57She checks in and says, Ellen Tobi, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said... Oh, I remember, yeah. Mary Jo just looked up and looked at me and said, Who are you? I can see Ellen going like... And she said, you're cute. It was nice. I was cute then. I'm not sure that's the case anymore. But so she said, why don't you sit down? Give me a minute. I'm going to take it. She took a couple of girls in and did their auditions. And I sat there for about maybe 45 minutes. And she said, come on in. So she walked me in. She said, you're an actor. I said, yeah, yeah. And she said, do you have an agent? I said, no, I just got the time.

34:38She said, do you want one? Sure. So she got on the phone and called Jeff Hunter, who was a big agent. And I'm sending over a kid. We're going to test him for this role, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you should sign him. And that's a big deal. That stuff does not typically happen. It was just extraordinary. No, I did not end up getting that part. But I did test for it, and that was pretty cool. And you got a babysitting gig of the young Christian Slater. Oh, I used to babysit for Christian, yeah. Slater and I became friends. I called her Slater always. I've been, we still connect once in a while.

35:14Great gal. And so Christian was, I don't know, four, five, six, whatever, I helped out at his birthday parties, you know, stuff like that. So take me through the meeting you had with George Lucas. The George Lucas thing was pretty funny because there's a great backstory to it. This was the day I got kicked out of Juilliard, there was one of the teachers there, Edith Skinner was her name. She basically created the speech for the American Theatre. An extraordinary person. And she walked up to me and she said, Kelsey, I know you've had trouble. And she said, you have Caruso equipment, and I think you'll have a great future.

35:51So I thought, oh, well, that's great. She said, I think you need to, you should meet this man, this agent. Mort Schwartz was his name. And so she gave her the number. I called and said, and he said, yeah, come on over. So I walk over to this place. This was a couple of days after I've been kicked out. And he had a Dutch door. There was a secretary here who sort of was fighting. And Mort was in the back in his office. And the top part was open. And he's going, listen, Greg, I'll get back to you. I'll get back to you. And blah, blah, blah. And he calls. And he looks at me. It's Gregory Peck. And he says, who were you?

36:33I said, Kelsey Grammer, Edith Skinner, told me to come over. I said, oh, yeah, OK, come on in, come on in. She said, then he looks at me, he goes, yeah, OK. What happened at school? He said, I, you know, I said, well, I got kicked out. So why do you think that happened? I said, well, I wasn't going to acting class, which was the case. So he looked at me for a second. He said, you know what? He takes out a pencil, a piece of paper on a pen, And writes out this thing, go to this address. There's a guy there casting a movie about space. And he hands me the thing. It's about three blocks away. I walk around, I knock on the door, and sure enough, they call me in and I sit down and there's, I didn't know at the time, George Lucas.

37:20And he says, well, we're making this thing about, it's a fairy tale in space. You know, two guys rescue a princess. Yes. Uh, great. Sounds like fun. Um, so he said, you know, you're right. There's these two parts. Well, maybe the older guy. You look a little older than, you know, he's kind of a, you know, gunslinging kind of guy. You know, an adventurer. Uh, cool. You know, great. Yeah, sounds good to me. Well, I never heard back from him or anything. But about a year and a half later, I was doing a job in San Diego. I got my first job. I was in San Diego. And I went and saw this movie where the, you know, the then that ship goes over your head and then you see the jet or the engines.

38:07And I'm watching it a little bit longer. And I think, holy. This is that movie. This is that thing the guy told me about. It's them. It's, oh, my God. I said, well, you know, I either dodged a bullet or missed a really big opportunity. But you know what? Harrison Ford did really well in that. And I'm a big fan. Oh, and the big opportunity was coming up. You auditioned for Cheers. The audition ends. No one laughs. What are you thinking? Yeah, that was a strange experience because I ended up at the end of the audition in California. There's a room full of people, not one laugh. And so I put the script down and I said, you know what, I'm gonna go out on the street, see if I can get some laughs out there.

39:05And I turned around and I left. And I called my old pal, Lois, and said, let's go take a drive, let's go down to San Diego, because I'd known her from San Diego. We went and spent the weekend. And I got back on Monday to, you know, collect my things and then head off to the airport. And as I walked into the old Holiday Inn there, it was at Hollywood and Vine, where I think the big theater is now, the Kodak Theater, whatever it's called now. They said, there's some messages for you, and people have been trying to get a hold of you all this time. And I walked into my little hotel room, there was a bottle of Dom Perignon sitting on the table.

39:48I went and opened it up and said, welcome to Cheers. So. How cool was that? It was really cool. Describe the emotion of driving up to the Paramount lot for the first time. Oh, the first time I drove into Paramount was great. I mean, I said, it's Kelsey Grammer. I said, oh, yeah, hey, hey, good to see you. Yeah, come on in. Here's your parking space, blah, blah, blah, blah. That was very cool. Because the gates, you know, I mean, Hollywood still, it has a sort of, you know, mythology about it. It's kind of a size about it that makes it really cool to kind of, you know, finally walk through one of those gates and be welcomed.

40:21That was a nice thing. And Cheers, obviously, one of the most successful shows in TV history. Frasier, the spinoff, one of the most successful spinoffs in television history. You actually end up directing more than 30 episodes of Frasier yourself, but the show centered around an older father and kind of a misunderstood relationship with his grown son. Correct me if I'm wrong. You said the greatest gift you got from Frazier was understanding what it was like to have a father and brother. Yeah, a father, a relationship with a father. How so? Well, my granddad had really sort of taken the place of my father.

41:03I didn't know my dad very well. My dad died when I was 14, just a couple of years after Gordon, but I didn't really even know him. After Gordon died, my dad sent a note and said, you know, listen, why don't you come and visit me? Come and say hi. So I got to know him a little bit. Spent about three weeks in St. Thomas with my sister, and we got to know my dad a little bit. And then saw him one more time after that, and he was dead. So that was a strange experience. So I never really had a dad, you know? And I had no real sort of understanding of how to be a dad myself either, which has come into play in my life since then.

41:43But what I got with John and with David Hyde Pierce, that John Mahoney playing my dad was, by virtue of the time we spent together, the 11 years we spent together, I got an understanding of what it might be like to have had a father. And that was a great, great thing. And I've had a brother that went through the things we go through in life together. And the rivalries and the love and the commitment and the loyalty. I mean, things that were, you know, we were playing characters in a world where they were virtuous people. They were, you know, they had pitfalls and flaws, but they were basically virtuous.

42:25And that was, so it's a slightly idealized version of what a father and a son and a brother might experience together. But I think it's actually a pretty good slice of what would be right in life. How true is it that at times it would take you days to get through family scenes without breaking down yourself? Oh, it still happens to me. I cry all the time, cry at the drop of a hat. I don't know why. About what in the situation? I don't know. It just reminds me of the beauty of being a human being, you know, the beauty of experience, the beauty of love, the beauty of family, things that are poignant and would bring a tear to your eye.

43:00Anyway, just I'm always there. You know, I take the ride along with the character. And so I'll bubble up and say, oh, my god. In what ways did you feel like, you said this, that your TV father on Frasier was almost like a father figure to you? Yeah, my TV dad was just a remarkable guy, you know, a guy of sacrifice and service and loyalty. Again, like, you know, the virtues, the basic virtues of what you'd look for in a man, you know, in the traditional sense of a good man. You know, one that's honest, true, loyal, noble, keeps his word, stuff like that. And the caring between the three men on that show was, you know, there was an honest, sort of uncovered connection that is possible between men that we don't talk about a lot.

43:49You know, a lot of villainizing about being, you know, toxic masculinity, I don't know. I don't know if that's even a thing. I mean, because the men I know are good people, and the women I know are good people. So, you know, we're always bound to have some difficulties, But this blaming each other for toxicity is just a little bit weird. What do you think you learned from your grandpa growing up? Gordon was a good man. He was a good man. He was a man of service, the same kind of thing. He was a military guy, reluctantly a military guy. I mean, he was a retired colonel, but I mean, he served in World War II.

44:25He was in Guadalcanal for more than a couple of years. and he put his money where his mouth was. And he was fair and honest with people and believed that he should be. He thought that lying was not a good path. But I think in some ways he thought you didn't always have to tell people the bold-faced truth about things or what you felt about them personally. It wasn't necessary. You do as little damage as you can. And Gordon told me one great expression. It took me years to decipher. When I was 11, we were taking a walk. I was going through some hard times at this fifth grade school that I was in.

45:05And he said, Kels, if you see a bug, step on it or walk around it. Boy, what the hell does that mean? Yeah. And then through the years, I started to understand that you will run into situations that bug you, or a person that bugs you, that can get on your nerves. and dealing with it rarely means needing to step on it, you know, or cut it somehow, or really, really confront it. Most of the time you can just walk around it. So very few bugs really rate your attention and the ones that do, you just get over with quick. As you mentioned, he passed away when you were 12 years old of cancer. I think unbeknownst to you, it's been all over his body.

45:59And even if it's untrue, you had the realization at the time that you would always be alone. Why did you feel that way then? That was, the boy, Kelsey, you know, talking about myself in the third person.

46:19I hadn't really let the impact of losing him touch me. for about six weeks. And then that one night, I just sensed that I was always going to be alone, that people would always leave, that it wasn't going to be an easy thing, life. And that was a remarkably desolate moment in my life. Sad, sort of abandoned. And it energized me in a strange way to think that at the end of that particular realization that I would be okay anyway, that I was going to survive. But yeah, that was a hard night. That's the first time I cried over my granddad. What do you remember from the three weeks you spent with your dad in St.

47:12Thomas after the granddad? Oh, playing the drums. I played the drums with his band. My dad was a music teacher who had been in the... He played the bugle in the army. I'm told he played taps at Arlington. But he had this band with four or five other guys. And the night that I went to listen to band practice, the drummer was not there. So he asked me to do the drums for 12 bells at midnight. So I was counting and I knew enough about measures and music so I could count it out. And after I hit the 12th one, he said, you're the first guy that ever did that, right? So that was a big thing. We woke up one night in the middle of the night and he threw together some tacos out of the fridge.

48:00And that was a great moment. We just sat and ate together. He asked me to edit his magazine. He also published a magazine, asked me to proofread a few of the articles when I was there. And this controversial magazine too. Yeah, he was a controversial guy. He called things as he saw them. My grandmother used to tell the story of the day I was born, she flew down. And she said from the airport to the hospital, he got in three fist fights. He was sort of a bigger than life guy. We flew into Puerto Rico. And the stewardess took us to a little holding near the luggage place. And they said, who's picking you up?

48:45You know, your kids. You can't just be released into San Juan. So I said, well, he looks like Blackbeard the Pirate. That's all I really knew. It had been years since you saw him. I had no recollection of him. And my mom said he looks like Blackbeard the Pirate. So I quoted that. And they sort of laughed. And then down at the end of this hangar, I mean, at the end of the airport, which looked like an old hangar, I don't know what it is now, there's this giant guy standing there with a big black beard. And he weighed about 350 at the time. And I thought, holy crap, that's my dad. He's right there.

49:28And I said, I think it's him. And they all turned and sort of giggled. He looked just like Blackbeard the Pirate. So he used to play it in the carnival every year on the island. And you've been very open about this. He was murdered. Yeah. Why was it not till you turned the age that he passed that it really something for you? I had a pretty tempestuous relationship at the time. And on one particular night, things got pretty dramatic. And so I'm not going to say anything else about it, except that a certain event took place on that particular night with this particular woman in my life that made me think, holy crap, my dad was so young when he died, because I was 38.

50:14And that was the first time it hit me how young he was to have died at that age. Because to me, it was such a sort of a distant memory. I was 14, and 38 seemed like a lot then to me at that time. But in getting to that space, I suddenly thought, you know, what a loss for him. You know, I mean, the people that have died in my life, you know, there have been a few. It always seems to me like it's their tragedy, you know, and it's not really mine. It's that loss of what he might have done with his own life, of what possibly the relationship we could have had. But that really wasn't what it was about.

50:54It was about this poor young man that was taken before his time. Your sister similarly murdered. You said it took kind of 20 years for you to overcome or get to a place so it wouldn't hurt you anymore. How so? Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

51:45Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com.

52:16What happens when you're grieving and you don't really have any place to put it is you tend to take it out on yourself. And so I did that a bit. You know, I drank excessively, and I got sort of wrapped up in cocaine for a while and didn't forgive myself. I wondered what it came down to. And finally, I had sort of an epiphany of thinking, you know, you're carrying this as though you had something to do with it, and you got to let that go. And I think it's a natural inclination. I think it's certainly a big brother, always wants to protect his sister. You know, and that's just what we're trained to do, you know.

52:57That's what we're supposed to do. That's what I always did for her when we were kids. So losing her in that way was really damning to me. And I responded in any number of ways for a while. I mean, I used to walk the streets of Manhattan just hoping somebody would, like, try to do something. In dangerous parts of the street. Yeah, in dangerous parts of the town. And what was weird was, you know, I'd be approaching a situation of a few guys standing around a corner somewhere or something in the middle of the night and think, here's a chance, you know. And they all usually just steered clear. And here's a chance for what?

53:36You know, maybe just I was going to be able to take something out on somebody or let some of these guys jump me or something. You know, I was not in a good way at that time. But I think in a weird way, everybody kind of sensed it and thought, he's not worth it. So, you know, so maybe I was just being protected, you know. But then that turned into, suddenly I had great success, things like that. And it just was an irony for me that she was gone and taken in such a horrible way and that I was alive. So I blamed myself for a long time. And then finally somebody said to me that usually the reason for addiction and things of that nature, in a profound way, is an unresolved grief.

54:21I think there's a lot of truth to that statement. If you can just forgive yourself for whatever it is you're in, you don't actually need to carry all that crap anymore. So for me, it really helped me out. How did you get to the place where you were able to do it? You know, when it turned off, it just turned off. It was just, phew. And you know, it doesn't mean now that I don't recollect Karen and even my dad and not still have a profound sense of grief. and even cry still, but that part of it has been, the charge has been removed from it. And you were there when your grandma told your mom what happened?

55:00Yeah. How did you help your mom in getting through it? It was hard. You know, helping my mom was tough. I think she, I'd never seen anybody move around a room that way when she heard her daughter was gone. And I think my mom was a truly brave, wonderful, persevering example. She just kept it together and got through it, but always mourned the loss of her daughter, her little girl. The boys that did it were 16, 17, 19 years old. 18, 19, 20. They were in the Army, honestly. But, you know, one guy was pretty creepy. He just died, actually. Was you going to say one's dead and another's up for parole in 2021?

55:48The last of them is alive. How do you view them? As people who should stay in jail. You know, they were given the death penalty, actually. But then in the, I guess in the 80s, was it? or maybe it was in the late 70s, the Supreme Court overturned all death sentences in America and commuted them basically to have all the states re-examine their death penalty policy, right? I mean, I don't know exactly what the legal language is that best describes it, but so they were commuted to life sentences, all of them. And then because they fell into that little niche, it gave them the right to go up for parole all the time.

56:42So they've been, since Colorado has altered its law, they say life means life. If you're in jail for life, you're in jail for life. There's no parole. And that certainly would have been easier on me. But the last decade has been spent going back to Colorado Springs to ask the parole board to keep them in jail. What do you have to do? Basically write a statement, show up, you know, speak to them, about them. The last of them is the guy that was pretty instrumental in killing my sister. And I just, you know, there's a part of me that wants to be as kind to every human being as I possibly can. and uh but the notion of his ever going free just seems absurd you know they didn't kill just one person they did it to several and uh we don't have that right i mean except in wartime maybe but you know that's still you know that's that still usually haunts people with conscience anyway if they had accepted responsibility and admitted wrongdoing to what extent do you think that would have changed your view?

57:52I think now they probably have, but it's just... I mean, for the longest time... Yeah, no, it didn't really. Yeah, no.

58:03It's to their credit, but still, you know, I didn't get a chance to meet my nieces and nephews, did I? I didn't get to see her grow up. How do you view therapy? Through a jaundiced eye. That's the best I can say. I think therapy's fine to a point. I think good therapy, you should get over it. You know, so you get through it and say, somebody should finally say, yeah, I think we've done enough here. You're welcome to go back into the world and move on. You know, get on with your life. You know, in the old days, you know, you'd talk to an English person and say, therapy? Therapist? Isn't that what friends are for?

58:47You know, and you'd think, yeah, you're probably right. Yeah, you've got to have people who can touch stones in your life where you can talk things through. I certainly did do some therapy in time, and I think it was helpful to a point. How's it helpful? Well, you know how you just sit and talk with a neutral party? You're not going to get in trouble for what you say, hopefully. But I think it's nice to have that outlet for ideas. But once you learn through a certain series of coping mechanisms or whatever, how to reflect on things and not take it always so personally, that's certainly a skill you should be able to master yourself.

59:28you know. So just talking about like personality, for a long time you said you felt like you were always letting people down. Why? From time to time what happens in a relationship with people is they start to have expectations of you that maybe are unrealistic. And I know that I've spent time in relationships where I thought, why am I not good enough? Why is this not working out so well? Why am I suddenly being told I didn't do my job today? That sort of thing has happened to me in the past. And when I realized that I probably was okay, and maybe the issue was that they didn't want me to be okay.

1:00:16I'm not really sure. And even dating back to when you were growing up. When I was growing up, I actually thought that I was letting people down. I thought I just wasn't quite good enough. I didn't quite hit the mark a lot of the time. And maybe that was just out of a feeling that I had to be perfect. You know, maybe we all have that a little bit. I was letting myself down sometimes. I started to develop certain sort of small goals. I used to tell some of my friends, I'd say, well, you know, set a goal for yourself that's realistic that day and do it. You know, make sure you get that one done. because then you won't have a sort of a tradition of feeling like, oh, I didn't do this today, I didn't do that today.

1:00:58You know, make them small. I'm going to plant a window box today. So make sure you do it. You know, simple things. And I think that helps you kind of get a sense of self-respect. And if something wasn't your fault, you said you had a way of making it your fault? Making it my fault, yeah, right. sort of engineering some sort of a bizarre way into thinking somehow I'm responsible for that. Yeah, no, those are the problems of a man that I am no longer that man. It took a while, though, to figure that out? Yeah, I'd be able to filter that out. It doesn't feel particularly significant anymore. I think maybe that was coming out of a place where maybe the period that I've expressed that was more rich with that particular emotion because of what was going on around me.

1:01:55And that's over now. You said you were attracted to threshold experiences, insanity, chaos, chaos, man. Oh, I'm still attracted to that. I mean, you know, I think I find people fascinating who are in that, you know, state because that state's an ecstatic state. And one that's, you know, even if it's perilous or bad for somebody, it's still attractive in a weird way. So, yeah, sometimes I found people who were in sort of crisis more attractive than I would someone who was, you know, doing okay. Tell about the... I'm shocked that you were open about the tattoo that you got. For Kate. Oh, oh, oh, no.

1:02:33Well, that's just... She said, uh... This is something we actually have. We both joke about it. Just one time we were sitting there and she said, would you ever put my name on your body like this tattoo? I said, yeah, sure. Why not? So we both said it should be out of sight so it's somewhere near my, you know. It's crossed our minds. It'd be funny to sort of say if I happen to be cheating, someone would say, you know, oh, property of. But also, or it could be with compliments. You're a hostess this evening.

1:03:10Courtesy of Kate. All right, so married four times. What do you think you learned from past relationships that helped you as you've grown as a person? In terms of the... I like to think of that married three times, basically, was once, because that was the same person in different bodies. There was a pattern that I fell into where people did somehow I thought I could help their life be better, you know, help them come to another place somehow. And then I realized it wasn't my business. And when I finally stopped doing that, and realized that, you know, people had to just love me for who I was and maybe be a partner and maybe, you know, even like me, you know, this was, that's where some of that other stuff came in.

1:04:00What was that person that you were attracted to? I think some of it had to do with always picking people that you could never satisfy. Maybe that's some of what I was talking about before. In terms of Kate's the most mature person I've ever been with. She happens to be younger than anybody else I've ever been with in terms of a fully committed relationship. But the others were part of the step. But there were three women that were very similar. And the issue was the same issue. And I like to think. And abusive too, right? Well, one certainly, very abusive. But I like to think of the lesson being, I finally realized that wasn't what I wanted.

1:04:49You know, it just took me three times to figure it out. Why, when you were in the abuse, did you tolerate it? That's an interesting question. And this is like... Those people who are abused, I was physically abused in my second marriage. Black eyes, glass broken on you, gun fired at you, life threatened. Crazy stuff.

1:05:14Once it happens, this is apparently some sort of, this is kind of a syndrome, I guess, or something that's identifiable with people who've been abused. You just kind of assume it's your fault and that you accept it and that you'll be able to fix it next time. And you just can't. It takes a while to figure that out, though. It takes a while to say, this is not my fault. I'm not responsible for this behavior. That person's responsible for it, and I got to get out of here. It takes a while. And not speaking to any relationships specifically, but when was a point for you that it just clicked that, you know, this is not for me?

1:05:52I've had some good days on this. My previous marriage, and, you know, honestly, I don't really talk about her very much because so much of her life is spent talking about me. I just think it's sort of pathetic. But I will acknowledge one day after I'd had my heart attack. A month after I had a heart attack, my mother died. And it's 12 years ago now. And the day of my mother's funeral, my previous, my third wife,

1:06:34basically had an explosion about something. And started to tell me, you know, I'm out of this, I'm out of here. Again, you know, I want a divorce, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which we'd had the same conversation for, you know, eight years. And it was tiresome. And I realized at that moment that I was done with her. that I was not going to end up in this relationship for much longer. And somewhere under a year I was done. Kate, who you love dearly, your current wife, 25 years, you're junior. My junior, yes. 26, actually. 26. What's, just from an age perspective, the biggest difference you've noticed?

1:07:17The only thing that I would notice actually is just maybe a little bit more perspective. But Kate's a wise girl. She's a knowledgeable person. She's self-aware. She's a whole human who was willing to, like, one of my favorite expressions about marriage, to lay her solitude beside my own. And so we are two individuals who have become a third identity. We've assumed another identity together, which is us together. And that's a very cool thing. And she's a complete human being. And beautiful in all the classic ways, but also humorous, funny, challenging. She's got a really good brain and is quite comfortable using it.

1:08:12And she just has a great way of looking at the world. I mean, she's so entertaining and so fun with the children as well. She loves those kids and loves our family. I mean, when we were together, you know, when we first got together, she said to me, there was just suddenly a moment where she thought, oh my God, I want to have kids with you. And she said it sort of surprised her, but she said her grandmother had told her years before that she said, you'll know the man you want to marry when you realize you want to have children with him. And I thought, oh, wow. So that was really cool. And I'd had visions of more children in my life anyway.

1:08:54And other than that, other than the fact that I don't run as fast as I used to, I don't feel any age difference between us. There's the sort of empirical, oh yeah, this number is this number, that number is that number, that you just can't ignore sometimes. and there's a certain kind of inevitability about the fact that, well, this one means this, and there are certain circumstances or consequences of us being together that we'll have to face at some point. But as it stands now, I feel like we are equals and really well-matched. How many kids do you have? We have three. I have seven. But we're talking about a couple more.

1:09:47Really? Yeah, yeah. And I love kids. That is a whole lot of kids. That's a good chunk of kids. Why more?

1:10:01Because it's an uplifting experience. It's a joyous experience for me. These new human beings that come into your life. These children that are your charge in many ways, but they're also your tutors. You know, they teach you so much about life, remind you so much about life. The simple beauty of life all the time is evident in watching your children grow up. And so the closer I am to that, the happier I am. How would you describe what you think you're like as a father? I think I'm a good father. I think I'm fair and sometimes a little scary. And how are you scared? I think you need to be able to have the voice that stops a child in its tracks.

1:10:44If you have a kid that's running out in the street, you hope that you've established in them something that says, oh, that's the voice, I better just stop. There it is. There are consequences to that that might be not good. So somebody has to administer justice in the household. There has to be a hierarchy and an understanding, and you try to be good to your kids and explain things. But there are some things that you just need to point to and say, look, this is a bad idea. And take my word for it. That goes pretty well. How do you think your upbringing impacted you as a father? Well, like I said, I had no examples of fatherhood, except I did have Gordon to a point.

1:11:31And so up to there, I was pretty good, you know, telling the truth, try to be decent to all people. Those are good things, to be respectful of all people. And to be a gentleman, you know, as a man, and be a young lady. I mean, I think those are still terms that can be applied in our society. And an expectation of good behavior. It's like how to be decent to people. You know, allow everybody their space. And as Emerson said, you know, say their name with all the honors any king or queen would ever be given. you know just to be respectful of people and then to find them i find all people fascinating and interesting and deserving of that kind of attention and then uh you know there are certain corners you shouldn't stop on there are certain people that will prove to you that you know you've gotten as much from them as you can in a short span of time and you do not need to stay there you mentioned your your first child now in her 30s right um how do you think you've evolved as it a dad from when you first had a kid to today.

1:12:39It's funny, I think I was a pretty good dad to her. I mean, she was the first that, Spencer, my daughter Spencer, she was the first one, right? So I guess I cut my teeth on her a little bit. But I was always, I was with her all the time when she was younger. When I had my second wife, we spent a little more time apart, and I'm not sure that that was helpful. You know, you come back around. You have enough time, you know. You get to restore all the sense of love and intimacy that can be there between a father and a daughter, especially. And I think that's all there now. You know, we had some tough times.

1:13:25May 31st, 2008, the heart attack. Right. Take me through what happened from the moment you first started feeling bad. Well, this is kind of an athletic story.

1:13:40I was to stand up paddling that day. We did a couple of miles. Went down to a little beach just south of where there was a home that I owned.

1:13:53And they did this thing as well. You go pick up a big rock off the bottom of the sea floor and walk with it for a while underwater, hold your breath. So I did that about five or six times. And then we got back on the boards and paddled back up. And that's when I felt a little dizzy and stepped onto the beach and thought, well, I'd better just sit down. Then I threw up. And I thought, well, that's a little funny. And I said, well, let's go and get some food. So that's when I stood up, and that's when I felt the crushing pressure in my chest. And what are you thinking at the time? Well, I started thinking, I guess maybe that's a heart attack.

1:14:34And so I sat down, I tried to breathe deeply, and it felt really, really painful. And at that point, that's when I started to shout apologies to my ex-wife about how sorry I was that I'd sort of just been this awful husband. But that's kind of what she made me believe.

1:14:56I waited for an hour and a half before the emergency guys got there. It was too bad. because it's Hawaii, the big island of Hawaii, and getting an ambulance there is tough. I think maybe they've gotten a helicopter by now for such situations. So a lot of, not a, some damage was done to my heart during that time. Finally, they gave me, when I finally got to the emergency room, they gave me what they call the clot buster. And that was one of the interesting experiences. They said, well, you've got some sort of clot. Something's obstructing the flow of blood through your heart. And they said, there are side effects.

1:15:35And I said, what are those? And she said, well, death. I said, OK, thank you. Go, do it. And so they did it. And then they pop you, and then they bring you back. And so I was breathing on my own after the second pop. And everything sort of back on track. When was the point in which you weren't present anymore? It was very brief. There was a brief moment when I said, just before the shot, I sort of said to the gods that be or whatever, or the lesser angels, whatever. I said, don't show me anything. I don't want to see a thing. I'm not interested in any tunnels or any light. I have things I have to do here still.

1:16:21And I'll digress for a second. I'd gotten to the point in my marriage at that time, the unhappiness was so profound that I actually I started to think the only way I can solve this for them is to not be here. Really? Yeah. And so I started to believe that the best course for my life was to not be alive and that they'd be happier. Why would you feel that? Ah, just, you know, look, some people get you to a certain place. That's all I'll say about it. So in that moment when I said, okay, I take it all back is what I was basically saying to the little angels. I was saying, I didn't really mean it.

1:16:54You know what? I know there's something else to live for. and I want to get to that. But it wasn't until that moment that you really had that revelation? I made a profound plea for another shot at this. Yeah, right. And I guess they heard me. They said OK. How much damage ended up getting done to your heart? Well, you know what? I think I've reversed a lot of it by now because I've been working out pretty hard ever since then. And I've done some things that enhance your blood flow. And I feel pretty strong. Post-Fraser, we were taping an episode with Jon Hamm not too long ago of Mad Men fame, and I asked him, how do you recapture the high of being TV's leading man?

1:17:39And he laughed and he's like, you don't. How similar an experience was that transition for you? Yeah. Well, Fraser was a giant accomplishment, honestly. Actors get wary about successful characters because then they kind of take away your right to play other ones. But that hasn't been the case with me. I mean, there's a bit of a... You know, he's still sort of there in my life always, Frasier. I mean, because he's a great character. So I'm remembered for him. But recently, I've been playing a lot of different roles and I'm having a really great time at it. And that's what I always wanted to be, was just an actor that played different characters.

1:18:26So that's happened. And I got a couple of indelible ones. You know, another indelible character was Boss, basically, Tom Kane. Sure. That went really well. And although it didn't, you know, have the full life that I'd hoped it would, it was a very successful performance for me. And there's some other ones coming up. I've done a couple of films lately that I think are going to be. Hey, Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up.

1:19:09It shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. and a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use In Minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

1:19:51Pretty good experiences for people in the theater, and you know, so I'm happy. How did the level of satisfaction that you got from the roles and parts post-Fraser compared to maybe what you would have been expecting? Right. Fraser was so good. You know, it was just, it was a great performance and great writing and all the things you needed to have it become great. I've experienced that since. and so I haven't been cursed by it, you know, in a weird way. I'm trying to get to the heart of your question. Yeah, and I was going to say that's, I wasn't implying or asking that in a negative way by any means.

1:20:36I guess I just wonder, you know, you go from playing for one part for so long. Right. My guess is there's some level of preconceived notion of what it's like to then all of a sudden have the flexibility to play all of these different roles. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. Does the satisfaction kind of compare to what you would have been expecting going into it? The satisfaction is the same. Yeah, the satisfaction is great. It's been great. It's just like when the first time you do it, the very first time I did a role where I went, wow, that felt like truth. And that's what we get off on, I think.

1:21:12You get to sort of touch human truth through a performance. Somebody describes great art as a true lie. It's a very simple set of words, a true lie. That's exactly what it is. I mean, we're not telling the truth, but we are conveying truth with a mask. And it's a great way to make a living. The Simpsons, the voice of Sideshow Bob. Well, there's a great truth in Sideshow Bob. What does that entail? Sideshow Bob is a character based upon a person I knew. His name was Ellis Rabb. And I've said this before in many, many instances, but Ellis was a colorful, flamboyant man that I knew that I did some work for years before, and he would say the most wonderful things.

1:22:02Ooh, Kelsey, you know, things like that. But today I am, you know, and I thought, God, this guy, I got to use him somewhere. And the occasion arose with Sideshow Bob. So Sideshow Bob is Ellis Rabb, my version of Ellis Rabb. And an honorific version. I mean, I loved him. I thought he was a wonderful guy. And the most famous thing he ever said to me, and I've said, I've told this story before, he said, Kelsey, that baby should have been mine. And I've always thought, wow, that is the greatest thing. So years later, I was auditioning girls, young women, for the daughter and boss. And a girl came and sat and was reading for us.

1:22:49And she looked up and said, I am that baby. And that was wonderful. How did The Simpsons come of that? Sam Simon had been a writer on Cheers. And then he took off and started doing the Tracy Ullman Show. And then within that, they came up with Matt Groening, the little itchy and scratchy thing. And then it turned into sort of the Simpsons character, the part and everything. And he called me like in the second season of The Simpsons and said, I used to sing a lot on the set of Cheers. I used to always sing, oh, the good life. And he asked me if I was still doing that. And I said, yeah, yeah. And he says, can you sing a Cole Porter song?

1:23:36And I said, of course I can. And so I said, well, we've got this character, Sideswood Bob, loves Cole Porter, who has never spoken a word. And we finally thought he should speak. He's Crusty the Crown's sidekick. And we want you to do it. So I said, yeah, come in. And that's when I thought, oh, it's Ellis. and did my Ellis Rab impression and sang, what is it? Every time we say goodbye, I cry a little. Every time we say goodbye, I wonder why a little. A wonderful song. And Sideshow was born. You have a best memory from there over the years? Well, you know what? They always come up with really quirky, wonderful stuff to get to do.

1:24:27I mean, I just did another one in London I was doing Man of La Mancha on an afternoon for a Christmas show. I don't know if it would be this Christmas or next Christmas. You never know. It used to be almost a year ahead in terms of what you'd record and what you'd finally see on the air. I'm guessing that that window is closed considerably or reduced considerably. But so the time in turning it over is maybe reduced to what might be this Christmas. And it was funny. They think of funny things. The last one, when he was working for Monsanto, I thought that was really funny. He's sort of doing, like, GMO, you know.

1:25:09It's, they're a funny bunch. The Frasier reboot. Yes. The new Frasier. The new Frasier. What's the plan for that? Well, we're in the midst of talking about, we've got it hatched. We've hatched the plan, what we think is the right way to go. We're sort of on standby a little bit, working out on a couple of possible network deals that we're circling. Okay. And Frazier is sort of in a second position to that at this point. So, you know, there's still stuff going on. But a revisit to Frazier and Frazier's world is, I think, definitely going to come. We'll see, you know, how people respond to it. Because it's not going to be the same place.

1:25:55It's not going to be Seattle. It's not going to be the same Frasier. It's going to be the man in his next iteration. And hopefully that'll be something people like watching. But I think it'll be funny. Without revealing too many details, what will it be about? Well, you know, it's still his search for love, for one thing. I think that'll always go on with Frasier. But a connection with his son. When do you think it starts? Spring. Okay. Yeah. When do you think people can... Air time? Probably late summer next year. Late summer next year. I would guess. That's quick. Yeah, I mean, it's ready to go.

1:26:36We just gotta sort of staff it and find somebody who wants to give us money for it. I mean, that's probably not that difficult. Who knows? You never know. The business is funny. It's a funny world. But I think there's a couple of outlets that would actually be interested in revisiting it. You initially said you could not see yourself playing Frasier again. What changed? Part of it was the Roseanne revival. Things that kind of kicked again. And then when they were doing things like when Murphy Brown came back, and I don't know how, and when Will and Grace came back, I said, well, it would be worth it.

1:27:13I've always wanted to be honest. You know, I didn't think Fraser should be in exactly the same place as he was 12 years ago. So we've changed that. What was appealing to you about it? Just the idea that there might be another act in his life, because certainly his life is. People used to ask, could you have done it for more time? And they'd say, well, yeah, because life is always surprising. People go on, yeah, you get up the next day and it's a different life, isn't it? And so I thought you could always tell stories about that. We just ended it because that's where, oh, contracts were up and 11 seasons seemed like the right kind of amount of time for it to be on the air.

1:28:00And so we ended it on a high and what we thought was, you know, a good story point to end on and a hopeful stepping-off place. All those things were enough to propel him into a new kind of life. And so this new idea would be based upon the fact that he was still, you know, alive and still trying things and still embarked on an adventure. I mean, I think that ideally that would be how it would work out. On that note, I really appreciate you having us here. This has been a treat. Sorry for all the questions, but thank you for being so often with your story. This has been great. Thanks, man. Thanks.

1:28:39Thanks for listening to my chat with Kelsey Grammer. To catch more of our interview, including a tour of his 500-acre property and his brewing facility, visit youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. And as always, we appreciate when you rate and review the show. Thanks again for listening.

1:29:00Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. Ouch. This knee is killing me. But I can't stop training. The marathon is in two weeks. Let's get on ZocDoc and find a doctor to take a look at that for you.

1:29:40Okay. Here's a review. Dr. Crowder really takes his time. No, I don't have time. What about Dr. Charles? His patients say he can help find a quick fix, and he's in network. Great, now we're talking. Book it. Booked. One mile down, 19 to go. Bring it on. You've got options. Download the ZocDoc app today.