Manny Pacquiao: Poverty, Politics, and the Battles That Built a Champion

0:00This week on the In-Depth Podcast, boxing great Manny Pacquiao. Throughout his remarkable 26-year career in the ring, Pac-Man won 12 titles in a record eight weight divisions. Pacquiao reflects on the extreme poverty of his childhood. Sometimes we don't have food to eat, just drink water. Just drink water. Just drink water. And how it's affected him in adulthood. Even if I'm the richest person in the world, my heart is still the same. that I can feel the feeling of the poor people. But we begin talking about his storied boxing career. Obviously, speed is very important in boxing. And what so many are impressed by with you is your ability to increase in weight and still maintain the same level of speed that you've always had.

0:52How are you able to do that?

0:57In myself, I always look my speed. I always think about my speed and improve it every training, every fight. And that's my focus every training, the speed. Even though I'm moving up the higher weight, but I don't want to lose that speed that I have when I was when I was started. And I guess the challenge that those close to you have said that they have with you isn't that you need to get in shape because they always know you'll be in shape, but it's preventing you from overtraining. Explain that. Yeah, exactly. I'm the one who control myself if I'm overtrained or not. just if I did a lot today in training then tomorrow maybe not too much just like that balance so but will you sometimes push yourself a little harder than maybe your trainers would like sometimes when when I was young when I was 23 24 and I love I love to train hard I love to to pose myself but you know we have to we had to realize that when when I become like this like this age you know 35 years old so I have to balance balance of the capacity of your body of your I mean of your of your body and also of your mind.

2:43Sometimes your mind is you can do this, do that, but sometimes your body will react. So just balance. You and I were talking about this yesterday. Freddie has gotten mad at you before during actual matches because you'll unnecessarily take punches from the opponent you're facing because you want to feel the opponent's power. Explain that.

3:16Sometimes boxing is not only for a battle of physical, but also it's a battle of mind. I have to do that to intimidate my opponent that I can handle his pants, I can carry his power, his pants. So it's mine, you know. How much can you tell when you're intimidating somebody? Well, if they bring a combination punches and then I get hurt. So they will, you know, I mean, my opponent, they will run all day long. so that's how that's what happened if you see the fight with the that's what happened with the Miguel Cotto in the middle of the round like six runs beef round then he start running because I am I am showing him that you know I let him punch to my body and then I didn't get hurt so now he's a he's thinking that I can handle his punches but Cotto is pretty strong boxer he's heavy-handed so But you could tell he was surprised or intimidated by that.

4:39Yeah, like what I said, boxing is not only a battle of physical, but only mental. Also mental. And with that fight specifically, Miguel Cota, the dislocation and snapback of his face, your punches were literally shifting his whole face off its foundation. What do you recall from that? That fight, I trained hard. I worked hard for that fight. We did a lot of things in training. So that's why in the fight it becomes easy. Are you surprised though when that's happening with the face? I'm not surprised because I did a lot of hard work in training. a lot of strategy. I think I keep on pushing myself, even Fredorot trying to stop me, but I always, you know, we always in negotiation every day training.

5:47So I want to run through some notable moments from your career, the first of which being the 2001 IBF bantamweight fight. The impact... That's a super bantamweight. Super bantamweight. The impact that had on your career, how huge of an opportunity was that for you? I remember that fight with Lino Honolulu Lidwaba, my first fight in America. I went to America just for vacation because I just finished my fight here in the Philippines. And then when we get to L.A., That's how I found the wildcard gym. Somebody introduced that gym to us. Freddie Roach's gym? Yeah, Freddie Roach's gym. So we went there just to observe what looks like the boxing gym in America.

6:52So there's a big fight between De La Hoya and Castillejo at the MGM. And the supporting main event is Lino Holonoliduaba. His opponent is a Mexican guy. But what happened is I was number three on that time, number three in IBF. And his opponent got injured in training. He got caught, big caught in his eye. so he cannot fight supposedly championship fight IBF so they contacted that number two the number two from Thailand but the number two they they're not ready because it's a two weeks notice right and I'm number three but you were willing to take it on only two when they they gave me notice of course I just finished my I'm in shape because I just I just finished my fight here in the Philippines.

7:51But they think, Freddie, he think that I'm, I just only trained two weeks, but they never know that I just finished my fight here in the Philippines. No, he didn't know that at the time. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Got it. And any concern on your end, taking another fight only two weeks after, or only a few weeks after you just fought? When Fredy knows that I have a title shot because the opponent got injured,

8:28Fredy wrote, he didn't hesitate to say yes because he knows my condition. When we train in wildcard, my condition, we made a couple rounds, but I never get tired because I'm in shape.

8:46Your 2003 fight in San Antonio at the Alamo Dome versus Marco Barrera. Marco Antonio Barrera, yes. Right. You walking out to the ring are booed by virtually the whole crowd. Somebody even spits on you, yet you have a smile the entire time. Why? Why? I'm smiling because I'm excited. I mean, you know, this is the time. What I'm waiting for in my boxing career, this is the time that the moment that I have to show my ability in boxing. I think the English and the Filipinos are cheering for me there. They're all Mexican. But when I hear the voice of a Mexican cheering for Barreba, I feel more excited to show that I can, yes, that's your boxer, but I can.

9:45Because you're kind of the underdog there. Yes. Oh, yeah. Big underdog. Big underdog, yes. Your 2008 fight versus Oscar De La Hoya, how much did that positively impact your career? It changed a lot in my life, in my career, after that fight. It changed a lot. And before that fight, I remember that a few people believed that I'm going to win the fight. A few people did. Yes. Of course, if I'm a boxing fan, I will say, oh, it's hard for Manny to win that fight. How quickly did you know in that fight that you were going to win? From the beginning. When I accepted that fight, I said, I have a big chance to win that fight.

10:42Your first fight versus Timothy Bradley, June 2012. You lost, obviously, in a controversial split decision. every media outlet had you scored as winning the fight, and some have even said that's the worst decision in the history of boxing. What do you think happened there? What happened there is I don't really understand why I lost the fight, why I lost in that fight. But I accept wholeheartedly. I respect the decision of the judges, the officials. But, you know, many people are are advising me to appeal or make, you know, to appeal to make the decision, to change the decision. But I told them it's part of boxing.

11:38You cannot do that. I never heard that in boxing, you can change the decision because I know the roles and regulation in boxing. The decision of the judges and referee is final. What would you say is the most satisfying victory from your career to date? Satisfying? I think it's unfair if I pick one of those big fights. I think I can say all those big fights. All the big fights. Yes, all the big fights. I want to take you back to when you were growing up. You lived in really tin shanty poverty when you were younger. How would you describe what you lived in when you were growing up? We didn't have our own house.

12:33We didn't have land. We didn't have even food. We just, you know, we have to work every day to make money to buy food for the family. So even we're too young to work, but we have to work. Like sealing donuts, sealing pandasals, sealing flowers, just to earn money to buy food. How old were you when you got your first pair of shoes? I was 12 years old, yeah. Twelve. How often were you able to even, like, take a shower? Sometimes, twice a week, twice a week. Hungry, though, all the time? Hungry, sometimes. We don't have food to eat one day, and we just drink water. Just drink water? Just drink water.

13:29When the food's not around, I mean, are you constantly thinking about food and thinking about how hungry you are? Yes, of course. If we have money to buy food, I think it's not enough just for us. We just cook the food and divide all of us. How do you think that impacted you growing up not having your dad around? Actually, I'm not blaming my dad. It's good for us that our dad is not around because we're not relying on our dad. We learn how to work hard because we're all boys. We learn how to work hard and to make money in a nice way. And that's how we get strong. Did you really sleep in a cardboard box and on pavement at times outside when you were growing up?

14:38Yes, outside the street I sleep with the carton, you know, the carton, the box. We sleep there. What do you remember from that? Oh, I remember because I understand we don't have a house, we don't have money to buy food. But it's good. It's a very good experience that I'm so thankful to God that I had experience. I haven't experienced that life before I get this life. Why? Before I become like this, my life right now, I've experienced that life that I don't have nothing. And even I have millions of dollars or millions of pieces in my hands or in my pocket, I still understand, I still feel the hearts of the poor people.

15:43Even if I am the richest man in the world, my heart never changed. I always feel the hearts of the poor people. They're feeling what it needs. They're feeling what the feelings of being hungry. That's how I, aside from boxing, I enter the politics because I want to serve honestly, to help the people. And I want to be an example, to be a good example to the politician here in the Philippines how to be honest, to serve honestly to the people. When you were younger, explain why you ran away from home and where you went. When I was younger, I had to run away from home. run away from my home because I have to earn money.

16:43I have to help my family, my mother, my brothers. I have to send them to school. I decided to go to Manila to help my mother and my brothers. How did you get there? There's a recruiter, and I joined them. But I don't know where we're going, So I don't have idea but I have to go there to continue my boxing card and to help my family. But correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't tell your mother. I didn't tell my mother because if I let her know, she don't want me to go. And you didn't call her for a long time? No, because in that time, the cell phone is not established yet. How long before she found out where you were?

17:43Months. Months? Yeah, I think two months. What did she think happened when you finally connected with her? She just heard about me that I'm in Manila. And when she got my letter and I explained it to her, that I have to go, I have to live, I have to be here in Manila just to help you, to help you, Ma, and to send my brother in school. So you turned pro, I believe, in 1995. You're 16 years old, 4 foot, 11 inches, 98 pounds. As you mentioned, you had to put weights in your pockets to meet the weight minimum of 105 pounds. but is it true that when you were younger, you really didn't like boxing initially?

18:36When I was young, I loved to study. The problem is my parents don't have money to send me to school. So when I graduated in elementary, I focused my boxing career in a mature. How true is it that as a child you spoke to your good friend, Boo Boy, about wanting to be a champion boxer when you got older? Oh, the story of Boo Boy, I was in Manila already when I, my first come back here, when I left, since when I left that I didn't let my mother know. So that's after how many years, and that's my first visit here. Even my brother, I cannot recognize my brother. You couldn't recognize your brother.

19:39Because he's black because of the sun and he's smoking in the street with the boys in the streets. With Bo Boy. I told him, who's that? It's familiarity, but I cannot say it's my brother. How long had you been gone when you came back?

20:10I have, I take vacation here to visit my mother. And then when I go back to Manila, I bring Boboy and Bobby, my brother. Money. How many people do you employ for your boxing career? A lot, a lot. Although I can need only a few people, but I want to help them so be around with me and then help whatever you can help and then the work and then so that you can earn money. How many jobs do you think are necessary and how many do you think are more because you want to help the people out? For me I want to give them job but what I'm gonna do I'm a boxer so they have to go with me and help whatever works that I that they have to work.

21:08I was reading one article that was from back when you were training in LA at Freddy Roach's Wild Card Gym that wrote about how you were paying a guy like$200 three times a week to wash your car. How concerned at all are you that you spend too much money trying to help people out? The material things I don't put in my heart. Material things is okay, I have to take care of the things in this world, but in my heart, the important is God for me. And if I see people poor and need help, need money for food, how can I turn back from them? I know even if I'm the richest person in the world, my heart is still the same.

22:08I can feel the feeling of the poor people being hungry, being, you know, nothing. You've caught people before on your team stealing from you and then forgiven them and still allowed them to be part of your team. Why allow that? I allow that because I want to teach them. I want to teach them who am I to judge them, who am I to, you know, persecute them. I just teach them how to, you know, that's not good. If you want to be blessed by God, you have to do it in the right way. Not like that. We cannot condemn other people. How often do people ask you for money? It's hard to answer. A lot. Constantly?

23:03Daily. You know, in talking to people close to you, they've all said that your potential downfall could be your kindness and generosity because you'll continue doing it even if it leads you to the point of being broke someday. I don't believe that because I'm doing in the right way. I'm doing in the right way that God wants us to do. I mean, God, He owns everything. When I start from nothing, He gives me something. So it depends on how you take care. We are just a steward. We are just steward of all things that's here in this world. But God owns that everything. But what happens when you're no longer boxing and don't have the big money purses?

24:09Well, I believe that my business is, I have businesses and the Lord will bless my businesses. I believe that nothing is possible with God. The God that I serve is the creator of heaven and earth, creator of everything. How can we doubt that? Freddie Roach, when you first came to America, trainers, for the most part, were pretty uninterested in working with you. How did you and Freddie end up working together? Me and Freddie, we work, we're not working like a boxer and trainer. We're just working like a family, like a friend or brother. We suggest each other about the strategy and techniques. So we understand each other.

25:06I mean, we have a coordination. When you first met Freddie, he told me that you wanted to show him two fights you got knocked out in. Why? Of course, I just want to let him know that I already experienced that situation. When I lost, it's nothing. I can accept that it's part of boxing. What do you think you've learned from him? I learned a lot. I think I... No need to say one by one the reason, but every situation that happens in our lives, there's a reason that we will learn. It is not an accident. It's just God's purpose. us. Freddie says you're the best fighter he's ever worked with and credits you for making him a Hall of Fame trainer.

26:11What do you think of that? Yes, he's the Hall of Fame trainer in the world. For me, I credited all this achievement that I have from God. Without God, I cannot do nothing. What do you recall from being knocked out by Juan Manuel Marquez in December 2012? You know, I have a good story for that. Okay. Why I can't, I'm so relaxed after that fight. I'm just smiling after, you know. You were? Yeah, smiling when I get up. I don't know what happened. But I realized that, you know, but before that fight, I have a dream that I cannot interpret it. or I told some people, but they cannot interpret it. But when that fight happened, after that fight, I realized that that's the interpretation of my dream.

27:22One week before the fight. What was the dream? Well, that I'm gonna be flattened, and then in the, but I will stand with nothing will happen, and then run again. Continue the journey. That's why after that fight, I announced when the media interviewed me, I announced that we will rise again because I saw that in my dream. And I quote, It began to register on those watching ringside that they may have witnessed what amounted to a public execution in the ring. Pacquiao remained motionless, possibly lifeless, until his cornerman rushed to the ring in tears, followed by a doctor. Have you watched video of that knockout?

28:13Yeah. And I know Freddie Roach initially was concerned you might have been killed. Were others sitting ringside that you've talked to thinking the same thing? When I saw that fight, of course, they get nervous because I was flattened in the canvas, and then I cannot move. But after that, maybe three to five seconds, I know what happened. It was recommended after that fight that you take a year off. What did you think of that advice? I mean, I accept that advice because, of course, it was a bad loss, and I have to recover. Was it hard for you to stay away for that long? No, it's good for me because I've been in boxing 20 years, no stop.

29:18So it's good for me to rest one year. What did you do? I have a lot of business to do and spend time with my family. And I'm a congressman. Retirement. Why do you still like boxing and still want to keep boxing? I still like boxing. I want to continue my career because boxing is my passion. It's part of my life. If one day I'm going to retire, then retire, no more come back. So that's how I want to, you know, I'm happy bringing honor to my country. How much longer do you think you keep boxing? We cannot tell, you know, only God knows. But I believe I can still fight a few more years. How concerned are you about the potential long-term side effects that boxing will have on you later in life?

30:23I'm thinking that, but I believe that God is good. If God is with you, you have nothing to worry. How true is it that even as a kid, you knew you wanted to get into politics later on? No, before I don't have idea what politics is. I don't like politics. I don't like politics. But people said when you were in the gym, when you were in Manila, you'd practice speeches and things like that. That's the time that I'm already helping here in my place. Every time after the fight, every time I had a fight, after the fight, I'm coming back here and give, buy thousands of sacks of rice and divide it into five kilos each and put the noodles and sardines and give it to each family and give money like 50 or 100 places.

31:37So I'm helping them from my earning money in boxing. I'm helping them. And then even though thousands of families that I help, still there's a lot of people who need help. So I was thinking that some people advised that if you're in politics, if you want to serve, honestly, there's money in politics. But the problem is a lot of politicians are corrupt. So that's what happened. You lost your first election for a House of Representatives seat, and I read it was because the majority of the people voting for you didn't want to take you away from your boxing career. Were you at all surprised when you learned that?

32:28For me, I understand I'm happy. I'm more happy when I lost that election because I cannot fight Tila Hoya, I cannot fight Couto, I cannot fight Margarito, I cannot fight Hatton. Would you have stopped boxing had you won the election? That's my thinking when I ran. It was? Yeah, that's my thinking in 2007. But after in 2010, I decided to run again. But my thinking is to continue my boxing career. Tell about how you and U.S. Senator Harry Reid have worked together. He invited because he was four days before election. He was behind 4%. So there's a campaign in Las Vegas. And he invited me to endorse him, to help him with his campaign.

33:37So I show up there and say hello to the people and please support Haribid. And at that time, that's a relations buildup. And how has he helped you with the Philippines? Well he helped a lot, especially on the disaster, the last disaster, the big disasters in Tacloban. We communicate each other how they help and how they help us. What are your goals in politics? My goals in politics is to help more people. That's the most important thing, to provide shelter, to provide them shelter, to provide them sustainable livelihood. Meaning to see sustainable livelihood that they can earn money every day for their needs.

34:29How do you do that? I believe I can do that by, like what I said, God is good, God is great. He's a loving father. it's merciful and he will hear our prayer. Explain the work you've done with child sex trafficking. The child sex trafficking, that's one of, I fight in Congress and pursue and, you know, stop that child trafficking here in the Philippines. I support that bill and good thing that it's the result is positive so. How much interest do you have in one day being president of the Philippines? I know people have talked about it a lot before obviously. Yeah, I don't have that in my mind. Right now I'm happy being a congressman, being a public servant, but thinking about the higher position is, I don't have that yet in my mind right now.

35:38If it is God's will, you know, who can, who can, who can, I mean, say no, you know. You have to at least have given it a little thought given how much people have brought it up over the years. So I'm happy helping people and if your intention is good and honestly serving people, then God will help you into a big purpose. Well, based on Filipino law, you have to be at least 40 years old to run for president, which would mean the 2022 elections, the first time you could run basketball. Tell about the team that you play for. Oh, Kia. I was, I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm a head coach of Kia team, Kia Motors.

36:30And I'm also a player. You were the oldest rookie ever drafted, I think. Yes. What do you like about playing basketball? I like basketball. You can see in my house. You cannot see boxing equipment. I have a covered court basketball. What do you like about it, though? I like basketball also, aside from boxing, and that's my cross-training. How concerned do the trainers and coaches involved with your boxing career get when you're out there playing basketball? Concern? I mean, you're running around, you know, don't want you to get injured playing basketball when you have a fight weeks away. We have an agreement with Freddie one month before the fight.

37:26No more basketball. So we always follow that role in regulation. You mentioned this a moment ago, and we talked about it some in your office last night, that there was a period when your personal life was kind of in shambles, the drinking, the gambling, the womanizing. Why did things get so bad, in your opinion? That's not God's want for us. He wants us to be holy because the Lord our God is holy. So we should know the commandments. We should know about salvation. How did gambling become such a problem? Gambling? I already forget that long time ago. Oh, come on. Yeah, I mean, I stopped gambling many years ago.