Mike Macdonald: Super Bowl, Self-Doubt, and the Weight of Winning

41:51I actually remember Todd Hartley was the G. I remember watching him draw simulated pressures on his computer screen, being really awkward outside, creeping on his office, trying to figure out what he was doing. But they were cool with you being there? I was barely in the base. I was just sitting in the hallway, just creeping around, trying to find my way. But I was April of my senior year, right before I graduated. And they just hired Todd Grantham to be the new campus coordinator. and I found him at a Starbucks downtown. So I went up to introduce myself. I had already made this huge binder of, like, all the stuff I did at Cedar Shoals, like, thinking that that was going to be impressive.

42:30And you sent it to him, hadn't you? Oh, I sent it to him. I was like, hey, how's the guy who sent you the binder? And he was nice at the time. He was like, oh, yeah, good to see you. Like, no idea. Come by the office later, and we'll talk. Which is, that's a big deal. So I was like, yes, sir. So I was back, and then that's when they're like, well, if you can get into school, into grad school, you can come volunteer. But hadn't admissions already closed? They had already closed, yeah. So how does that happen? I don't really remember. I went down to the graduate school office, and I was like, look, I need to get into grad school.

43:02I have to get in. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I have to get in. Like, I take the test or whatever, so. And your only motivation for going to grad school was because you wanted to work. Just to work for, yeah, because I was going to take out a$20 ,000 loan and go for free. So, like, really betting on yourself. yeah yeah I think that's a fair way to say it but back then it's like it was like I don't know I'll figure it out if it doesn't work out I'll go get a job and just do whatever but if they're gonna let me go do that I was like I think I need to do this so it worked out yeah it worked yeah first first student graduate assistant I think ever like normally you graduate your graduate assistant but I was an undergrad graduate assistant working for free yeah proud of that but then he becomes defensive coordinator of Louisville and fast forward four years of indentured servitude right which was kind of what it was busting your ass and then he ends up hiring his brother as inside linebackers coach yeah your reaction to that was what and how close did you come to just kind of giving up so we we were we were at the comp we were at the coaches convention which was in Indianapolis and I was at the tilted kilt in Indy I remember this vividly Todd calls me hey I want you to I don't have a position coach but I want to hire as a GA but you can be the safeties coach and you know I I had a couple beers that night.

44:33So I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, no, screw you. Like, I'm not going, you know, which is probably actually a pretty good offer now that I'm thinking about it. But I just, I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, I just gave you four years and like, I'm either going as a real job or I'm not.

44:50And so in the fall during our bi-week, I'd interview with KPMG. Wait, but and he said what when you said that to him? I think he was okay. I mean, he was probably like, damn, the guy that has all my playbook stuff, I've got to find somebody else to do all that stuff. That's what he's probably thinking. But it meant more to you than it did to him. Totally. Yeah, I'm going on to the next guy. But at that point, I think I either had an offer or I had already interviewed with KPMG. Big four accounting firm. Yeah, to get out. It was in a consulting gig. And I was like, okay, well, it sounds like I'm probably going to take that job.

45:30And then at the time, like Georgia hired, Coach Rick hired Jeremy Pruitt. And I was like, well, shoot, if I'm still going to be here, I mean, this guy's a great coach too. They just had a legendary defense at Florida State, and he was like a DB guy. And I was like, well, that's a great opportunity to learn from this guy too. So I was like, well, maybe it's better if I do stay, and we'll figure out this way. But the KPMG job was$60 ,000 a year. $60 ,000, man,$55 ,000. And you weren't making anything. I was I mean up until that point I was making 450 bucks a month so they didn't big deal like turning that down was yeah still had money on the loan yeah I still had putting my about$12 ,000 left on the loan and did you give any was that a hard decision or you just knew I had taken the job with KPMG but that was gonna start in the summer and so I was like well finish it I'll either finish the spring out and um or maybe i'll get a job like officially or whatever i was i don't even really know what's going to happen i was just kind of just living assuming i was going to take the you know go work and move to atlanta and are you at this point in your life are you still thinking like you're going to do big things or does is the confidence wavering yeah i'm thinking i'm thinking it's time to get out of football like i gave it a good good good go i'll figure out a world you you know, where it's whatever.

46:53But I was like, I'm not going to be a great college coach. Like, I'm not like these guys. I'm not a great recruiter. I don't really like doing it. I've never really coached guys on the field. Like, if you asked me to go do drills, like, I remember my buddy George Helo came as a GA for Pruitt, and he was, like, coaching the safeties one day. And I was like, man, this guy's a great coach. Like, I can't do what he does. Like, George and I are, like, best buds to this day. But I just remember being so impressed at, like, man, how does he go out there and, like, coach those guys? You know, I didn't know.

47:21but as like again like God has this plan and coach Harbaugh calls from the Bravens and that whole that whole that started the whole Ravens conversation that then it became pretty clear what we're going to do okay okay but when you're kind of in that place where you're kind of down on yourself like what does that look like for you like a lack of purpose you know I didn't want to go like the long hard way coaching at that point in my career I just I looked I liked it I loved coaching high school football, I loved it. But frankly, I didn't enjoy my time at Georgia. Like it was a, it was an absolute grind.

47:53There's good people there, like, um, people with the relationships I still have to this day, but it was a, it was a grind. Like I'm sleeping at the facility. Like I'm getting yelled at every day. Like, you know, I get like fake fired every other day, you know, I mean, I was, it was a rough go. I learned a lot of football, but like, like, well, I'm just going to live with the, learn how to come up with like ways to run two trapped the receiver for the rest of my life and you know I guess I'll just be a football fan but like I was I was beat down you know like that was a I took a beating there you know but you end up going to Baltimore and you know you're one of two others in an office somebody else yeah had a degree from Harvard and MIT yeah shout out Eugene Shen uh who's now with the commanders right or or he's he's I think he's out but he's doing some work for for teams that shouldn't be named right Got it.

48:42Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong. There was another moment in, I think it was 2018. Yeah. Um, where you're talking pretty vocally about the idea of leaving and going to business school. Yeah. Why this is, uh, 2019, 2020. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So 2018, that was my first year becoming linebacker coach. We had a great defense, a great staff, the staff dynamics really took a turn 2019, 2019 2020 and so I like I'm like I remember thinking I remember calling my mentor from from business school Vicki Clausen being like I'm supposed to have this dream I'm the linebacker coach of the Baltimore Ravens like this is a dream job this is like peak football job you know I should be enjoying this like I dreaded going to work every it's very similar to my kind of like my experience at the latter parts at Georgia like this is not what I want to do so I'm either They're trying, I mean, they're going to go like really ask John Harbaugh if I can leave after this season and go coach somewhere else.

49:39Or I might get out, you know, like I always said I want to be in a certain trajectory coaching wise. I'm in a great position, but like I don't really see a great future in this dynamic. So I was like, well, this is a pretty compelling story to a business school. You know, like somebody has to take you want to take me on like this, you know, maybe that's an avenue you can go look at. And that's that's where the thought was. And how close did you come to that? Well, I never got to the point of applying or anything like that because the Michigan opportunity came up during COVID. And then I was like, okay, well, maybe this is an opportunity we can't pass up.

50:16In what ways are you religious? My faith has never been where I've always wanted it to be. How so? When I was younger, I didn't want to give up control. I was like, well, I've done all this. You know, why would I put my trust in God? You know, and that's, that's has evolved. It's very similar to like your trajectory of like, as you gain more responsibility, really responsible for like people's futures and families and stuff. You realize how out of control you are. And so in that way, it's way, it's been, It's helped my faith grow and have trust in God and for the calling that he has for us and our team, which has been a really liberating experience and really cool.

51:13But there's always been a foundational faith to every stage of my life where I feel like that's been consistent. So it's like I know there's more. But I think a lot of people, maybe they feel the same way. It's just it's hard. It's been difficult for me to always be at the peak of my faith. It's kind of been like a roller coaster my whole life, yeah. There's somewhere where I was going with this, but we kind of talked about professional adversity, and there was a period of your life, early professional adversity, and there was a period of your life early on that seems very obvious I said it was a period of personal adversity, but it's through kind of adversity that generally you have some of the biggest growth moments.

52:04And I was listening to a podcast where you said the only time your faith waned was going through your parents' divorce. How so?

52:17I was young. I think I was in middle school. My folks divorced. there's so there's just the world your world is just it's so like new if the things that you thought were kind of the way it was turned out not to being the way it was i think that was that's tough you know so i think that that was like a a questioning period you know do you remember what you were questioning back just like what what is what what is you know what are these things like just there's a lot of uncertainty about what's what's the world to you at that point you know and your two older sisters are already out of the house basically and so you're kind of the only one there like uh what's that like for you back then just kind of figuring out how to navigate that i think i think this i think it actually i think actually kind of helped me.

53:20Because now I think when like things pop in my life, it's kind of like, okay, let's find a solution. Like, okay, now how are we going to look at it? You know? So it was like, okay, like my folks aren't going to be together. We're going to move. We're going to meet everyone. Okay. It's like, okay, so now if I'm going to go see my dad, I go to his place. Okay. I guess that's the world we live in now. You know, you're just kind of like very matter of fact. your sister told me she thinks you hold things closer to your chest now as a result of having gone through the divorce as a kid um looking back now like how do you think that affected you i i think i was so young where i don't know any other way that i've ever been yeah maybe that solidified it you know but i've never really thought about it like through the through that lens i do i just there's a lot going on in our family back then and so it was like like what just you know the divorce you know my my sisters they've had they've had adversity through their lives my mom's had adverse like they've all had all all families have like the things they have to work through and so that was kind of like the was there something though back then that was kind of most serious or that was i mean that like there's you know there's that was kind of like the eye of the storm of the of like our family's history you know and so that was like the phase that we've had that we had to like get through and it was almost like everything applied to everybody else but me because I was so young I was like okay you know this is kind of the world but has so maybe that is like a way to you know to detract did uh Maggie tell you she got emotional on the phone?

55:05No, she didn't. She was talking about your mom and she told me, my brother is the love of her life. I think I am my mom's favorite. Yeah, I think so. What do you think she taught you? My mom's awesome. She really is. Like, there's a lot now that like, that I want for our family, the way that my mom created for, for us. Like my mom loves creating these like great moments and like events to make things like super special for, for us. You know, you think about how much like she thought about what Christmases were going to feel like and like, you know, the thing she just, and that's an example, but really, I mean, anything was just, she was going to do it.

55:53It was going to do it right she's going to go to the nth degree to make it special and uh i mean like what a magical childhood like like that because you think when you think about like your memories those are all those moments that like she created for us and uh as a parent like man that's that's not easy right now that's not easy and so i just i i love that about her and then and my mom's also like she's she's psycho competitive like she is she wants to win like if you're gonna do it you're like you should do it right and we want to be like she wants to be the best you know and so i think she instilled that into me like that competitive spirit and like taking pride in your work and the way she like talks about my son now jack like just it's just like it's cool it's like it's inspiring to like get to that level about getting excited about things to do with them you because she just, you can see that's the, that's probably the way it was when I was a kid.

56:51So it's like, man, we have an opportunity to make his life really special. I was told you also, you have a bit of a short fuse at times and that I was told that it's a combination of mom and dad, not one of the other. Yeah, I think it's fair to attribute that to both. Probably more my dad. What do you think you learned from your dad? When I think about my dad, I think what's the coolest part is like, because maybe, like I was introduced to like his friends and his group after my parents got divorced. I think that was probably like a support group that he had. Maybe I just wasn't privy to it because I was younger.

57:28But like when he got remarried and like, so when I've had the opportunity to meet like the people that have known him his whole life, almost like people have gone out of their way to say like that my dad's like a standup guy. And so I just always respected that about him. And like every time that he ever said he was going to do something, he did it. Whether it was go to a football game or a baseball game, where he was going to be there. Like always went on his way to like be there. And like my dad, things are black and white. Like it's either good or it's not. It's either the right way to do it or it's not.

57:58Or it's either up to par or it's not, you know. Sometimes that would be frustrating. A lot of times that was like a sense of frustration. You're like, God, give me some slack. right you know but he definitely instilled like how to like him and my mom in their own ways instilled like there's ways to do stuff you know the right way and the wrong way you know i was told you guys uh essentially didn't tell a lie your entire uh adolescence and then if you did get in trouble uh you would almost suggest to them what your punishment uh should be i never really got in trouble though yeah i actually remember as a kid like i would i didn't want to eat i like i was really picky eater some of my folks like one time i was like yeah i ate dinner but like i like secretly like threw it away and so they just like didn't let me live it down they were like hey weren't those peas like great like you know they were asking me for like days about how great that meal was and just making me just double down on the lie and it was like the worst feeling ever.

59:02I'm like, I'm never doing this again. You know, I'm never going to go through this. So it was well played by them. It was a great, great tactic. How was your dad's help? He's on the comeback. Yeah, it's pretty cool. He's gone through it here in the last couple of years. So we're definitely blessed that he's on this trajectory. When, I mean, he was doing dialysis a few days a week. Somebody told me like one of the last times they saw him on dialysis did not look good yeah did uh were you concerned for a while that you might lose him man my dad called me at the end of the 24 season which was just a crazy season crazy year and he was like he basically told me that he had you know kidney disease and what it took that he's gonna have to go on dialysis and so like it sounded serious but I mean, I've heard of dialysis.

59:57I've heard of kidney disease. But you don't really pay much attention to what goes into it. So I just have to, like, a quick Google of, like, you know, how long can a 75-year-old person be on dialysis and how long does it take to get a kidney? Because if you're older, you aren't top of the list for transplant. Top of the list and, like, you know, your body. It's hard for your body to admit. It's pretty taxing on your body. And the math did not, like, add up. The way my dad, like, explained it, it seemed like he was going to, you know, my dad always like he's not he's gonna he like hides us like the real truth but that was that was really sobering to see that you're like man that is um really really scary so he goes on so he goes on dialysis you know we all we're all getting tested to see like if we if we're a match or whatever and really nobody ends up kind of getting all the way to the finish line ultimately a woman from his from his church matched and we see yeah samantha yeah she's her guardian angel is pretty awesome but did you were you concerned you were gonna lose him um i don't think your mind ever goes there you know and and like the way that he always explain it and his wife sabrina has been like really great in terms of just like being by a side and supporter and telling us sometimes the truth like when my dad saying everything's okay but it's always through like a like an optimistic lens you know so um but looking back at it now i think there were some times where it was like it was it was pretty scary yeah yeah tell about the replica super bowl trophy oh yeah well we won the super bowl and like there's there's you can get trophies for folks or whatever right and so i was like well i think it'd be cool to um get people a trophy that we felt like that like played a huge part in us getting here so like you know my sister i got one from my sister and my dad and my mom and and uh we ordered a couple extras and so i was like well let's send one to samantha you know get her a super vulture get her a lombardi in her room and her and her husband so i think they liked it it's kind of cool okay you said you said before your sisters are your heroes yeah oh why i mean that's not something normally well i mean they're my older sisters and they could never do anything wrong i just thought they were like the coolest people ever and then but they backed it up like they're great soccer players and like they're always great students and they're popular and like they had friends and they're funny and like and then when they became adults it you know like they haven't had like the easiest lives i mean it on the outside it looks like it i mean we're like this you know doesn't seem like we've gone but they have you know just you guys kind of all took the harder path right well they did yeah i mean like maggie she she went to new york when she was 17 years old and lived by herself and like just roughed it out for 10 years like working multiple jobs there and making a name for herself and going the hard way and then like just speak and then the person she's become you know like going doing the work with like mike gervais like i've told her like she she has this ability of like it's like an it's like a judgment-free operation with maggie i think it's a lot has to do with like the things that she's been through the people she's been around which for me like it's not a judgment-free zone with me you know i'll be first to come to a conclusion yeah so it's just like it's inspiring to be around that and then my sister kate she's like the example of i still i joke with her because i'm like she doesn't feel this way i'm like she's the one that showed me like you can have it all like you can be a great career you can you can kick ass you have a ton of friends you can go have fun you can take trips you can have an awesome family like you can be a great mom you can be a great dad like you can do all it's not gonna be easy yeah it seems like it's chaotic sometimes and you know they're going through a storm all the time you know it's it's not like simple for them but it's worth it you know so like that's like a foundational principle for our team is like that's where the whole Warriors in the Garden thing came from.

1:03:57It's like that's foundational to just how we believe that. That's the way it could be. What could be? We could have a great team and have great families and enjoy going to work and kick ass and be tough, but also be smart and do great scheme stuff, but also execute at a high level. I mean, all those things, that's really foundational to my sisters. So in addition to your dad being in the military, but I think a couple of your aunts were as well, What do you think military indirectly taught you?

1:04:36I think there's an order to things. There's a respect that goes with like, just like chain of command. You know, just to me, I don't think I see the world that's, the world to me isn't like an amoeba. There's like order. You know, I think I'm probably falling that end of the spectrum. them you know but definitely I mean I never wanted to but the respect I have for those folks was just is this you realize what they go through you know it's pretty pretty remarkable you were passed nominee for USAA's salute to service award but but tell about what happened one day when you you know canceled I think practice to go visit with the team yeah somebody and I thought I always got a kick out of that because it was like, congratulations.

1:05:34You're the salute to service nominee. You have a dad that was in the military. And like, that's like as close as I got to it. But I just like, it's my first year trying to figure out like how to get the team together. How can we do an event? Yeah. How do we include the community? JBLM, like we realized we had a community, we had a connection with some of the service folks down there. and so it's just you know if you just made it like volunteer on a weekend how many guys are going to show up but like if we actually use football time right it'd be it'd be a cool way to get down there and use as many guys as possible it wasn't exactly what we thought we're going to get into but what did you think it was going to be well like what did it end up being well it started with like we're going to go spend some time with the special forces guys and they're going to take us through the this uh you know this kind of operation they're going to like teach us how to clear rooms and but then And I was like, well, you know, there's going to be guns involved and we shouldn't really have firearms.

1:06:31And like it's not like the best look sometimes or like, you know, it's also dangerous. You know, so it got we pivoted to like go and hang out with like the like. This other group with like some some younger soldiers, which ended up being awesome, which is funny. As soon as we got off the bus, I think that some guy had like a 50 cal and like spoon just grabbed it and started like making getting pictures of. I was like, well, there goes the whole like us holding guns thing. but uh we had a great time it was good and it was that was a fun day um all right so we started to talk about baltimore um but like how do you think the the time there um prepared you for the role you're in now i know i know we've like found a lot of foundational principles through like through our work but a lot of that stuff did come from my experience like working for john the first thing is the environment there if you walk in the ravens facility now you're going to get a completely different feel than you do working like walking to seattle but like the my experience was like being seen walking in the day day one ozzy newsom like knowing my name walking down the hall the first day you're like man like this is awesome you know i'm actually i'm a person here like this is different than my experience at georgia you know like i'm not like I'm actually valued here and like the spirit of of like hey you know the chasing edges like that came from Baltimore of hey we're always like trying to find solutions and trying to get ahead and we're kind of in this race to to improve and it's every aspect of the organization like there's a hustle there you know of like of people trying to do great things and that was um I was like man that's awesome like I love this part about this place you know and so that that was It's definitely foundational to what we want to do in Seattle.

1:08:17Now, I know a lot of people that you would have loved to have had the opportunity to bring from Baltimore. You weren't allowed to because it was blocked by Coach Harbaugh. Yeah. How do you handle that?

1:08:33I think it's all's fair in love and war. Okay, but what are you thinking? As soon as you take the job, I had like the list of the guys I wanted to bring. Again, it's your first time going through the process. I kind of did like an around not through thing with John. I wish that I would have came to him as I was going through the process and said, hey, I don't know if this is going to happen, but this is what I'm thinking. How do you, you know, can you work with me on, these are the roles I would be, I want these for these folks, just like a no-go or like, but we had those conversations after I was hired.

1:09:08and at that point like you know John had to look out for like what's best for his team too and I wasn't exactly happy about it what do you remember from the tensest conversation you had with him on that front um he told me well I didn't have anybody when I came from Philly I had to go do myself there I was like, touche, you know.

1:09:34Were you really, though? I wasn't happy because it's uncertain, you know. Well, what am I going to do? Like, you're leaving me out to dry. And you've worked your whole life to get to this point. Yeah, I just gave you 10 years, you know. Like, I gave you 10 years of my work, you know. You've promoted me, and you, like. But I was thinking selfishly in that moment. Like, hey, man, you know, give me somebody. Give me one guy, you know. But honestly, it ended up being better. like we daniel's working for us now daniel stern zach's working for us now but it really forced us to like find the people that the foundational people for our program that didn't actually like not having the preconceived like not having the prior experience of like how we used to do it like having a more open mind yeah and it forced me to be like hey we don't have we don't need to lean on what we used to do like let's actually do what's best for us now you know so it's a blessing in disguise so somewhere john's gonna be laughing when he hears this but okay wait so i'm I'm curious for your thoughts on this.

1:10:27This is what I heard, that Harbaugh put you down sometimes. Is he tough enough? He's so analytical. I understand, you know, when the Seahawks went on a tear in the 2025 season, that your success could be felt in the building in Baltimore and not necessarily in a good way because he never allowed you to get the credit you deserved. your thoughts I would be disappointed if he didn't think I was going to be successful that would be tough to hear because I love John I really do do you think he thought that I don't know what he thinks I'd like to think that he thought that we're going to be now like timetable and all that like we all kind of have our own opinions about how people are gonna do which is I think is fair but you know I mean I worked for 10 years for him like game an honest 10 game an honest decade of work him and his brother you know I love those I love him all of his family like you tell me I got to work for Jim and John Harbaugh like I'm like one of like four people that ever got to say that just really I'd take it like I take a lot of pride in that but I and I wouldn't want I felt like I got a ton of credit and I wasn't really looking for it like I think actually that was an area of growth for me was making the Seahawks team like in my identity and true to me because I actually remember thinking, like almost feeling like I coached the defense in the image of the way John wanted his football team.

1:12:24Like I remember that. I vividly remember thinking that. Like this is John's football team. I'm going to coach this team the way he wants his defense coached. Now, like I can put my sauce on some things up to a certain point and like it's the vision about schematics. And I looked at it at the lens. He hired me to coach this defense the way that I told him I was going to coach, that I envisioned it. So I feel empowered that way. But it's his football team, you know. So, like, how the meetings feel, you know, how we coach the guys, how I communicate with him on, you know, all the decisions we're making.

1:13:02Like, he deserves to know all the things, you know. It's his team. and so I never I was never like thinking like well you know I'm the whatever I just I didn't I I can honestly say I did not think that way you know and actually kind of hurt me because when we went to Baltimore went to Seattle I I was like I was John's like guy that's now doesn't have John anymore and so it's like where does that where am I going to go am I going to go am I my am I Mike McDonald like is Mike McDonald good enough you know like that I remember thinking like having doubt in that to that sense. And correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like you've handled things in almost the exact opposite in that, you know, we were talking to Sam Darnold this morning and, you know, he pointed out how you really want people to own what they do and be the star of their show.

1:13:54So to what extent is there kind of any connectivity there based on kind of past experience? in my experience like when i've done my best work that's been the parameters and like and john gave me those opportunities like he told me one year he wanted me to be the expert on protections and like our blitz package and i gave me like three or four months to go do it and it wasn't and then but that gave me the ultimate like the freedom to go do it you know make it come to life and like i i don't know i just i feel like in those and correct me if I'm wrong with like his his teams there was your responsibilities based on your title and then there was a whole host of other responsibilities as well like in in a good way and I've taken that from like title to me is just like okay how much do we have to pay you right yeah you know how much and but what you actually do on a day-to-day basis like I couldn't tell you what people's titles are it doesn't matter yeah it's just a whatever um but i just like that's the chasing edges mentality of like if i i want i want people to be so excited what they're doing that they have the autonomy and the freedom the liberty to go take stuff and go run with it and what taught you that though i'm not sure i i just i think it is like when i've done my best work that's been the like the operating parameters like who wants to just go up and just tell me what to do line item a through d and i just turned by here i did it like there's no reward in that i didn't get any better i didn't make the project any better um is that typically how it works so in terms of in football right i don't know that that wasn't my experience at georgia um it wasn't very liberating environment wasn't like it wasn't we weren't really empowering people to be the best version of themselves or grow or anything like that.

1:15:46I think, I think part of my experience in Baltimore was a ton of growth, you know, like, I mean, again, like John, John gave me a lot of stretch in my career to take on new challenges. I mean, it started when I was an intern, I had a ton of challenges and I was like hungry for it. You know, I remember him telling me like, you're the right, he says like, you're the right combination of, of, um wasn't mean to like aspirational or like driven or whatever yeah i was like oh thanks you know but he kept giving me those challenges and it's like all right give me more you know like how do you not want more so that's what i want from our people like if i give you something go take it and run with it and then guess what i'm gonna give you something you're gonna get something bigger you're gonna have a bigger challenge and that's gonna be great i want you to take it and run with that you know i want to feel like the the like the excitement to like build things and make it cool make it fun and like you know that to me that's how you grow your your culture so you become head coach of the seattle seahawks and not only that you're taking over for the legend in pete carroll um yeah no big how do you go about figuring out how to do that

1:17:01honestly i just it happened so fast that um you had those like foundational ideas you had that like preliminary vision about what you wanted to create that you're able to articulate in the interview to Jody and to John and like the leadership team in Seattle. Jody being Jody was our was our owner at the time. Right. And and that was it. Like you just kind of had these like guiding principles that we were going to operate off of and then just try to figure it out, which it was very paralyzing at the very beginning of like trying to get that thing off the ground. And you don't have all your people you would invite.

1:17:37Nobody with me. Now, fortunately, Leslie Frazier came and worked with us. He's our assistant head coach. He's kind of an OG in the game. Knew a ton of coaches that could connect us. I didn't know any coaches. All our coaches were taken that were on my list. And then, frankly, I tell people, I interviewed for several other head coaching jobs that year. Didn't get any of them. Was there any other one that you got very close to that you thought you might get? At the beginning of the process, I was really going to end with Washington and Atlanta because I was from Atlanta. Washington was right there.

1:18:13Steph's folks were Washington fans. But if I were to get any of those opportunities, I don't think we would have had the success because we had an infrastructure in Seattle of all these people that were really. And John Schneider, to his credit, was like, hey, this is the way we're built. Like, I'm really excited for you to meet all these people. And I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I'm sure they're good people, you know, whatever. I just kind of took them for granted. But then once you're going through the process, like, oh, we can lean on these people and get them going and empower them and unleash these folks throughout the program.

1:18:46Like, man, this is really cool, like, where we can take this thing. It took me a while to get there. But then John being general manager and once Pete Carroll left, he became kind of final say on football. Yeah. Yeah. Decisions like executive vice president. Right. Yeah. And he's been like he's I mean, he's the he's the executive of the year for a reason, you know. But if you look at the success that that I've had in my career in leadership positions, it's like kind of reclamation projects. you know it's it's we go to michigan they hadn't had played as good a defense but it's like a story program you know jim had like a ton of success you kind of it's kind of like uh like like uh one of the what's like the house shows where they like they go and they fix up the house like fix her up or whatever that's kind of i feel like that's like my my skill set is taking like the taking it and bringing it to another level rather than being like a entrepreneur take it at the zero level and like build the foundation and does that make sense yeah sure so like michigan that was kind of there and then baltimore um you know they struggled they were struggling on defense so i came in we got you know we kind of took it to another level seattle they had obviously everyone knows the history of the seahawks they have a couple years where you know it's not like the way they want it i can that's now my that's like i feel like i'm that's my skill set you know so these other opportunities as much as it seemed like that was the right it was like you know kind of a shiny thing it was like I don't know if that was the best probably the bet Seattle ended up definitely being the best opportunity for me so when you come in you know understandably some players might have been a little slower to get with the program than others which happens with change.

1:20:37How did you go about figuring out how to navigate some of that early resistance? If I were advising myself now, I would say you have more time to build the relationships with the players. I was kind of like checking the box, like let me talk to the guys, kind of get a feel for where they're at. I'm going to tell them like where my vision is about how we want to do business and and go from there but like i was so green that i didn't like there's just there's there's a lot of circumstances where there was like we didn't we didn't like get connected on exactly how we're going to do business and why and i think we both kind of tried our best best with a lot of the guys and like you know coming from their perspective it was like hey this is not getting communicated like that effectively to me and this is not what I'm used to this is like a drastic change of what I'm used to like I'm gonna kind of I'm gonna do like I'm gonna kind of pull back here a little bit I'm gonna be completely fine which is understandable but like it's not probably not the best thing for the team to grow meanwhile I'm the new guy I'm trying to learn and grow at the same time this probably wasn't the greatest timing for for some of those relationships you know is there concern that you're losing some of the players at that time Like, in other words, that, you know, this is your big break.

1:22:02You have this job, and now some of the team isn't responding. I think I always looked at it through the lens of, like, we're going to figure it out. Like, we're going to get through to them. Like, it's going to click at some point. We just got to keep going. Yeah. I don't remember ever thinking, like, what if I lose the team? I never – as much as it was a challenge and I felt like I could have done a better job, I think I do have the basic belief that we're going to figure it out. Explain the thinking behind these breakout groups that you'll have. Yeah, right. You'll take meeting time, I think, once a month to send people on their way to kind of not entirely shoot the **** about whatever.

1:22:47There will be, as Sam was saying, there are topics, but there's a lot of flexibility. We were talking about our culture and how we're going to do training camp in the 25 season. And again, I had all these ideas that I was excited to share with the guys, but those ideas are going to be coming from me. I'm like, well, if it's really going to be our team and you're going to, you know, like you want the players' feedback and you want them to be bought into it. If we really want a connected team, like we need to invest in it. You got to put your money where your mouth is. So maybe I should like talk about a subject and then we should take the next day and like break up and talk about the subject to make to get the players perspective about how they see it and how that like that would affect their like how we do business every day and that's where it started the feedback just kept coming in like positive like the guys loved it oh that's cool and i'm like really you guys like doing that like no yeah it was awesome i was like huh okay well we'll keep we'll keep doing it and then so then it kept snowballing and then we were talking leadership council about okay well we're we're done like installing our culture over the camp like you guys want to do it in season two and they're like yeah yeah so like well we'll do it you know we'll do it like once a month or once every four games or whatever i was like okay and so i was like well i get you know i'm i get to make the schedule and i have a team meeting every every day of the week i'll just take my team meeting time on a thursday and we'll just do it that day no one can no one can complain for me allocating the time that i have right and so that's what we did and so it's just it's it's just become just part of our way of life now it's been it's been a game changer for us uh in what ways can you be difficult

1:24:29oh man i have pretty high expectations you know like if like i think a trade-off of like giving people autonomy to go take things and run with it like if they come back with a crap product or you could feel like it wasn't like an honest go about what they were trying to do. I have a low amount of patience for that. Because to me, that's like a break of trust. I trusted you to do this. You shortchanged the process. Now we have a problem. I was told sometimes you don't know what he wants from you. He'll tell you if he's unhappy, but ultimately thinks it's on you to attack it. A lot of people don't know how to meet those expectations without concrete vision.

1:25:21That's fair. Part of it is sometimes I don't know. So sometimes I'm just... He said, if you address it with him, he'll just kind of look at you. Some people get anxious or confused what he's after. yeah it's like i don't i'm not the person to solve this problem you're the person this is the we we agree to me in my eyes like look here's the problem i would like you to go try to solve it i don't know the answer to how to do it sometimes or sometimes it's hey this is my this is the vision for what we were trying to create i'd like you to kind of go take it and rub it in your eyes you know but it's a fair criticism it is i think a lot some of it's just lack of experience you know like if you've been around the block a few times i feel like you can give a little bit more pointers but um but is it is it uh criticism or is it just something that's intentional and uh i like to think of it as intentional but i think it's a fair criticism you can i can be it can be like it could be better I don't really want to be like warmer I mean it's not really my personality but like a bit clearer in terms of expectation you know glass half full or half empty I'm glass half full are you happy I have joy am I always happy I think I'm happy I was talking to Daniel Stern your coach turn which in a way kind of seems like could be your protege you know a number of years younger went to Yale kind of similar yeah you know working his way up through the coaching ranks but he was telling me about how before your first season with the Seahawks he had a meal with you in LA with his brother and after he left he he's like I distinctly remember this he was stiff he's telling his brother he seemed stiff anxious and just carrying weight yeah your sister used the same word when I was the words when I was on the phone with her the other day carrying you know weight.

1:27:45You come into an organization alone. No one knows you. You don't really know anybody. Your wife gave up a lot to move here and she's essentially all alone at home. I'm talking about these early days in Seattle. What was the hardest part back then?

1:28:11It was like paralyzing.

1:28:16I'm a little bit, I'm a procrastinator which I think has helped me do good work because you feel like you're kind of elevated when you need to go. But the trade-off of that is like it was hard to move. You know, it's even hard to get out of bed. I put a ton of pressure on myself because I have like you know i've had like massive expectations for what we're trying to create like it's not it's not good enough to not be like the best you know but that takes time to get there and it's a process you know and i feel like you're not willing if you're not willing to be like to take it incrementally and be able to kind of take take some punches along the way because you made decisions like quickly i just wanted to be right all the time and I didn't know what right was you know and I felt like it was really you know I put a lot of pressure myself to be right you know and so I think that that was the weight that I was carrying like there's a there's a burden that I felt like I was holding you know that because we weren't we weren't where I wanted to be and I and it wasn't clear on what to do you know so you're like you have all these expectations for yourself but you're not really sure what to do how to do it where to go how to find help you know it can be a lonely you know tough feeling and then to make matters worse amid everything you guys were already going through then was the last straw kind of bruce it was it might have been yeah the bruce is before the summer but um yeah Bruce is our dog that we I think I think I'm like thinking about it now it's like the first thing that you take care of whether it's like your firstborn you never had a pet or like you know Steph and I we were together and married and had a dog and that was like the first thing that we took care of you pride and joy yeah it's your pride I mean it's your you know it's your first first love you know and so we lost him abruptly through a seizure while Steph was up back at in baltimore and i was in seattle and like only four years old yeah he's four years old lab like the best dog ever man he's just an angel but that was tough because it was really hard on steph i had the i had the the outlet of being able to just go to work and being far from it like we were separated from it but then you can be all consumed at work to the point of preventing yourself from thinking about it yeah that's right yeah that's right yeah there was a lot going on there's a lot going on and then and then steph gets pregnant like a couple weeks later and so now she's pregnant and we're moving across the country and our family's in different corners of the country not here it's just it was it was a lot uh you mentioned you know hard time getting out of bed uh there's told the hard time sleeping sleeping in yeah not working out like give some color to that I think it's that like weight that I was talking about like I was not I'm a routine like when I'm at my best I'm in a routine but when I start getting out of whack and I like I don't know what I'm going to do next and I start to get paralyzed and then it's like a downward spiral because then you stop moving you know your mental health isn't as clear on that front uh your sister Maggie said it was probably depression um your thoughts on that I have a hard time saying it it was it was extremely difficult time never felt like that in my life like I was sick like I'd go home I'd get in bed I wouldn't get out I'd get in bed like as soon as I got home I wouldn't get out of bed until I went to work I'd be late going to work in the weekend I would I wouldn't get out of bed all weekend you know just sit in bed it was crazy like but like is it depression I don't know maybe like I find it hard to like self-diagnose depression Yeah.

1:32:05You know, there's like serious cases of depression, like clinically diagnosed for me to like, I feel like it's kind of irresponsible to say. But for whatever your version was of that, it's as close to it as you've ever been. It was tough. It was really hard. Yeah. Did you talk to somebody? No. No. My sisters. Yeah, my sisters are really the ones I talked to. Staff, obviously my wife. um what tools did you find helpful and kind of working through it um it was like a through not around thing it was like i need to get a workout like i have to prioritize like the routine and like the like the health part of it you know if i could get like maybe if i could get some like physical like personal wins then i could just start stacking those things but like uh i'd take like two hour long walks i'd call some of the players and but i needed like i need to get out so i'd work out walk sort of try to eat better i was drinking a lot um yeah that was that was probably that was probably the toughest most difficult stretch of my life honestly that that first few months do you remember when you finally started to see the light at the end of the tunnel and feeling like you're getting to the other side of it?

1:33:24It was in that year, but I actually remember at one point going up to John Schneider and being like, I feel like myself again. You know? And he's like, really? I'm like, yeah. It might have been either, I think it might have been in the season, like the second half of the season. And did he know you were going through it? No, it was just the guy that he knew. I'm like, this is, you know, I finally feel like, you know, there's a lightness to, you know, there's an optimism about everything. Yeah. I joke with the coaches now, like I was, I was,

1:33:54I was not an easy, I was not a great leader my first year. I just, it sucks to say that, but like I just fell short in so many different ways, you know. Like an awareness and a trust and like a, like a communication style.

1:34:14Just wasn't, wasn't the best version of myself. Yeah, it's not easy to say that, but it's the truth. But I mean, the reality is that, you know, it's a process for anybody to get to where they want to be. Yeah, well, you've learned at this point, it's like, it's not okay to not be okay. You know, like that was, that was the expectation, you know.

1:34:37Sacrifices, you know, demanding job, right? Yeah. How does the job impact the free time or the time you don't want to be working? Yeah. Well, I said as a procrastinator, when I was in college, I could never work at my house. So I'd always have to go to the learning center or the library to get anything done. Why? I don't know. Even in high school, I couldn't do homework at home. I'd have to do it at school. and so i think that ended up being a blessing for me like if once i get through the driveway to go home like i can't i can't do football it's like the craziest thing i'm just like and i'm not exactly like mentally present yeah but like i'm not like feeling pulled to like the football stuff matter of fact i want to do like i want nothing to do with it so that that helps to like to unplug and are you able to get home when you want to get home or be even if you aren't a hundred percent mentally present be as mentally present as the first season was an absolute wash because this was just working 24 7 you're just figuring stuff out i got the first year i i couldn't i didn't get home until i got home friday nights at like seven o 'clock that was the only time i was home all weekend and then i'd go back and i'd game plan all i'd finally get to my game plan process on saturday i'd game plan all saturday night for the actual on sunday which is crazy because i was just so far behind finally getting a good routine last year where I get home you know I don't I don't stay very late I go home at like nine o 'clock on Monday Tuesday when a Monday Tuesday Wednesday I mean that's not early compared to you know but Friday but like Thursday I come home earlier now to there's a funny story with the whole Jack thing that I only get 30 minutes with him but it's like that was taking it that's not true it's it was only on Thursday that I got the extra time with them Friday I'm home now Saturday I'm home Monday's family or Tuesday's family day like so you're seeing them just like every day now but we're but I finally hit that stride this year and a lot of this because like as a staff we're way more aligned on how we do business how we cultivate and you can remember like I was instilling a whole a whole new defense with a whole new staff you know and trying to run the it was just it was a lot the first year it's probably tried to probably bit off more than I could chew.

1:37:01And then finally as a staff, like I was able to, we're able to kind of come together. Just as a process of us being aligned, finding solutions, getting out ahead of things, understanding kind of what our core competencies are, how we're going to coach stuff, you know, all that stuff. We can now, we can kind of do our own thing and actually be on the same page. How do you reconcile, you know, doing whatever you can to be the best at your job while also wanting to do whatever you can to be the best husband and the best father you can be? I think it's that I'm not the best husband or father in the history of the world.

1:37:40Like, I'm first to say that. I want to be. I want to be the best I can, but, like, there's limits right now based off, like, the lifestyle we have, you know, which is very, like, on or off. How do you cope with that?

1:38:01It's like this is the lifestyle we chose. You know, this is kind of we knew we were getting into this. There's tradeoffs, right? It's like I'm going to be gone. You know, in football season, like the majority of my time is going to be at the facility. There's going to be a period of time during the season where I'm going to be able to be home and we're going to be able to be together all the time. And we're going to make the best of it we possibly can, you know. Could be a lot worse, you know. Oh, for sure. I mean, it could be way worse. But, you know, we're able to provide for our family. Like, I think Jack's going to have, like, we're going to be able to give him some great opportunities as a kid.

1:38:35Like, there's a lot of stuff that is going to be positive from us doing this, you know. So I think that's it. I mean, and it's not easy on Steph either. I mean, she's got a tough gig by herself at home, you know. And in the city, you don't have that foundation. Yeah, that's right. which is to me it's like hey problem let's solve the problem you know for her it's like i'm trying to solve the problem you know it's like i'm trying you know so and like it's a process yeah it's the process of like learning what our life looks like when we're in season when our life looks like we're not in season i mean we're just these things we haven't experienced yet you know you know if the football gods are on your side and you could be in a head NFL head coaching job for as long as you wanted.

1:39:24How long would you want to do it for? It is daunting to hear like, if this goes great, like I could be right. I'm two years in or three years in and I got, you know, I got a 30 more of these. Like it's a little scary to think about going that long. But I think it's going to be a function of like where our family's at, what our family needs. It'd be hard not to be around the game. It's going to be hard not to be part of people that you love being around. I think that's probably the best part is just having that community and being part of that. It's just like the team, just being with the guys.

1:40:07But I can't imagine doing it for that long, honestly. it's kind of shelf life of its own it kind of runs its course Tom Landry went the longest Chuck Knoll Belichick went forever it all comes to an end has last season sunken? no I don't know when it will at some point I'm assuming it will it's hard to put yourself in context with the people that you watched when you were a kid it's like a historic team that you're a part of And now, like, you know, life kind of goes on. But it's, are we really that good? You know, we really deserve to do what, you know, those legendary people did. I guess we were, but it's hard to comprehend.

1:40:56Did the satisfaction of it compare to what you were expecting? Okay, it sounds crazy, but, like, I never dreamed of being a Super Bowl. That was never, like, my goal. and that sounds weird but I just a lot of people like I think they get fixated on oh I have to be I think it's happened I think it's fortunate because it happened like earlier in my career I could see me thinking that like in another universe of like being 10 years and like I need a Super Bowl you know or we need to we need to win a Super Bowl because for whatever reason but like last year we were just I never thought about one I was going to be capable enough to do it and two i think i was honestly i was because of the way the first year went i was so focused on us becoming the team that i wanted us to become and all of a sudden we just kind of like snowballed you know and then we were and then then we were in a playoff game or we were in a divisional game and we're and so you're just thinking about those things all of a sudden we're in the super bowl like holy crap you know everything just kind of happened so fast that it's hard to take it, like, it's hard to fathom what's going on.

1:42:08You just took it in stride. And I want to end with this question, but, you know, you became the first head coach to serve as primary defensive play caller for a Super Bowl champ, which the Athletic called one of the greatest feats of the modern era. Like, just describe the feeling, the sensation of, you know, Being on that field. Coming out. Victorious.

1:42:45I mean, it was it's it's euphoric. It really is. It's hard. It's it's it's so much bigger than like. You can you ever even dreamed of. I don't I say this with humility and like. in truth. I never dreamed to win a Super Bowl. It never even like crossed my mind that we could, that I would be there. That's, that's the truth. And so when it happened, it was just like, wow, we, we did it. Like, I can't believe we just did that. I can't believe our season's over. You know, like, I can't believe we're not practicing on Wednesday. You know, it was, just there's a there's like a abrupt like finality to it that uh I mean it's awesome but it was like this is this is it you know just happened really fast but my my mind never never went there you know it's really really bizarre to say that but that's the truth and a story of hard work paying off and sacrifice and betting on yourself again I mean those are it's kind of like ever the people's other people can put context behind it but I just you don't just sit down you're like ah like this look what you know what I mean yeah you're just you're thinking about where are we going next you know where where's the team going what is the family doing now like okay now we're done now the you know jack's x amount of months old like now you know just like your focus shifts the new thing and another one on the way yeah you very rarely sit back and like oh, look what we did, you know.

1:44:24It just doesn't happen like that. Crazy. Thanks for doing this. Yeah, thanks, brother. Thanks for listening to this week's podcast. Don't forget to leave a rating and review, and for more in-depth interviews, visit GrahamBensinger.com.