Niki Lauda: Racing legend and aviation entrepreneur

33:36And this was all agreed with the CEO and all the marketing people there and I went over to England and I signed my contract with March at the time. And then when I came back, everything was signed, three days later the bank manager called me and said, Nick, come please, there's a problem because in the supervisory board of the bank we had to pass this sponsorship through the supervisory board because of the amount of money. Your grandfather and his friend turned it down. I said, what? So I signed over there because you told me I can sign it because you said the supervisor is not a problem and suddenly it is.

34:12He said yes, unfortunately nothing I can do. So then I went to see my grandfather. I said why did you turn this thing down? Because I don't want you to race. I want you to be in our business and I want you to see the Lauda name on the economy side of the newspapers, not on the sports side. This is the way it is. I think it's unfair because I work with these people long. And I think because you're my grandfather, you could have said yes. You said no, so now I have nothing. So this was then the end of my relationship with my grandfather anyway. And then I had to find the money again because I signed a contract.

34:56And I was educated if I signed a contract, you have to fulfill it. So then I went to another bank and said, could you give me a loan? and he said why because I told you the whole story and you will never sponsor me because I had the other bank on my helmet I said yes right so so no longer were you looking for a sponsor this late date now you're just looking for a loan with no way fulfill your obligations so there was no way in that short time that I find a response so I said give me a loan please this amount of money and if If you are friendly to me, I don't pay any interest for the loan because you have the publicity.

35:37The guy said, not a stupid idea. Went over to his bosses, said yes, but one problem we have, what happens if you get killed? Who pays the loan back? The guy said, yeah, insurance. Okay. Then sign up in insurance for the$180 ,000, then raise, put the thing on, you don't have to pay interest, five years you have to pay the money back. So I just made it after my disaster with my grandfather to fulfill my contract and start in Formula One. To what extent, if at all, do you regret never having repaired the relationship with your grandfather? Honestly, I tried hard in the beginning. I was always friendly with him and whatever, but he was so different to me in his way that in the end it worked out as it was.

36:26I think it was correct. I went my way, he went his way, none of us gave up. These things can happen. How much of it all do you believe he had good intentions and was just maybe handling it improperly? He was a very old fashioned, very intelligent, highly rated industrial man. He had nothing to do with racing. He did not even understand in his world what that means racing drivers a located from his point of view what do you think he thought as you started having success no he was not there anymore unfortunately he died before so he never saw my development and maybe in the end he would have respected it but unfortunately he didn't see it anymore how much did your parents come around to respect you for the success you had in racing.

37:22My parents then gave up to be against it when they thought that I was successful. My parents got a big hit when I had my accident in 76 because I know that they all came to the hospital and they went through all these problems I had there. The fear of my mother was always there to the end. My father handled it much better. If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With Sleep Score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration. Then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy-to-understand score from 1 to 100, so you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high.

38:13Know your sleep score with Apple Watch. iPhone 11 or later required. Whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva helps you make that thing a thing. Canva is a simple online tool thing. It's a way to design with our magic AI tool things. You can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks for presentations to show your thing. Whatever needs to be done for your thing, Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.

38:49Did he enjoy watching you race? He came a couple of times with me. I can tell you another funny story. When I started in Formula 3, I had no money and nothing my father knew about it because I never did the mistake again, which I did before, not telling him. And I said, listen, I have to go to Nogaro, which is 15 hours away from Vienna, to drive my first Formula 3 race. Do you want to come with me? And he said, yes, I come. Because he had a Mercedes car, company car, and I was thinking if I drive with him, he will pay the fuel for the car. So we drove all the way down. I drove him down. He came there.

39:34He looked at the circuit. And I said, you stay here and look at this. And I was very excited, first race. and my teammate, we drove the same cars in one transporter, my teammate and myself raced against each other in practice. I was following my teammate and his engine stopped and I had to pull out, not to hit him, and went into the guardrail and stopped half a meter behind a photographer who was taking pictures to the other way of the direction of the car. So I went up in the air, came down, crashed my car and stopped. So I got out of the car, I had nothing. So I went to this photographer, tipped him, showed him the car right behind him.

40:22So he was not happy. And my poor father was just opposite seeing the whole thing. And the end was that my car was crashed. My teammate's car worked, and I couldn't race. So we drove 15 hours down the road, stayed there one night and half practiced, and then we drove 15 hours back. So it was not a very good first experience for me and my father. Did he come around to start enjoying the racing experience? He watched it certainly, he did. And yes, I would say he respected full my direction of life, and being a racing driver. The mother was frightened as normal. He did a good job for me anyway. Much different to my grandfather.

41:10Explain how you had to self-finance your early racing days. I have to say, it was easier for me to get all these things going because of my grandfather's the louder name in Austria was famous for being an industrial family and whatever. So when I came to a bank, I had at least a little easier entry because they knew what my parents and grandparents did. So to get a loan with all the insurances they needed, maybe it was a bit easier for me than if I would have been nobody, not with a louder name, I would say. But even with that, I mean, you took on a lot of debt. At what point was the debt at its highest, and how much were you in debt for?

42:01I raced one year for March and then in the end of the year March told me that they're gonna be bankrupt and they will not cannot continue with me and I tell you when they told me this in November the next season was coming up already all the drivers were fixed I said now I'm finished because you really thought that yeah I thought till there was one moment which now I laugh about it but I I remember when I drove away from Bistov, when I was told that it's over my Formula 1 career because they are not running anymore, I said, what do I do now? And there was a wall coming up in the town where I had to turn a left, and I said, the easiest way is to drive into the wall because I cannot handle this situation now.

42:51But this was only, thank God, one second. And it was just instant thinking too because the problems were so big for me at that time that I didn't have an answer. So I turned left and then, thank God, with this experience, it was good for the rest of my life because then I had to do something. So what I did then is I called BRM. BRM was a very famous racing car at the time where I knew that they always needed money to have a driver. And I called Louis Stanley. He was a very famous in racing group man who owns his team. And I called him and I said, I would like to talk to him. And then he said, yes, I can come to Vienna if you want to.

43:37Because I said, I maybe have some sponsorship. So he turned up in Vienna. We sat in the airport, I will never forget this, with this bank manager who gave me the loan. And I said, I need your help now. you have to make sure that Mr. Stanley thinks you are my sponsor, not my loan man. So please come with me so we look a bit more serious. So Dr. Oertl turned up with me at the airport. Mr. Stanley came from England after some small talk. He said, let's talk about business. And then he tried to talk to Mr. Oertl. And Mr. Oertl didn't speak English very much. so I said Sir Stanley I have to translate we translated forward and backwards and forward and backwards and in the end to make a long story short I said I will find some sponsorship for him because he wanted money but give me time because now it's November that I can pay this money in May the part of the sponsorship.

44:47The other guy knew what I was doing, always nodded. I explained it what we're gonna do now. Because if I can get in the car in the first race, then maybe I can get out of this mess. And the problem was that they were running three cars, they got Sony, Bell Toas and were in Schuppan. So then I said there's one important request. I have to start the season, not Schuppan. Give me the first race. They give him the second one and so on. But I had a contact with him and said look, if you want our money in May then you have to do it that way. So he did it. We came to the first race and I have to tell you I really performed well.

45:31So I think it was quicker than Bale 2 hours or quicker than the Gazzoni, I can't remember. But I really did a very impressive start. Because of that he then said to me okay you drive the second race too so poor Schupan was pushed backwards and then in Calami Regazzoni had an accident one of my teammates and burned himself and could not race for two races and then Schupan could drive because of Regazzoni so what I'm trying to say is from the first race to the end I was in the car and performed so well that in Monte Carlo I was running in third position with this PRM or fourth and Monte Carlo was the date where I had to bring my money after Monte Carlo and to make a long story short Sunday night Monte Carlo Stanley said come up have dinner with me and my wife, I came up and he said, what about the money?

46:35I said, yes, I'm working hard on it. There's some very good prospects because now I'm doing so well and blah, blah, blah. I said, look, I'm convinced that you're good. I give you a contract now without money. So he wouldn't have paid me money, but I had a contract to the end of the year and an option for the following year, which he can pull, and my sponsorship problem was over. How did that make you feel when you're sitting at dinner and he tells you that? I was relieved like he did not believe. Not believe. I was so happy that all this pressure was gone, and I drove home to Salzburg next day, Monday.

47:17And in Salzburg, my cousin had a little office with his secretary, and I used the secretary if I had to write some letters. And I always had this joke there to say, When Ferrari calls, call me right away. This was the ongoing joke for two years. I came home on Monday afternoon, and the girl said, Ferrari called. What? Ferrari called, here's the number. And then I came to see Ferrari, Mr. Ferrari. He said, doing a good job. He drove in front of my car in Monte Carlo. I want to sign you up. You want to sign me up? Okay. What did you say? I said, Mr. Comitatore, I have a little problem. Because I agreed yesterday with Louis Stanley that I will continue to drive for BRM.

48:09I told him straight forward all my sponsorship problems. The old man looked at this guy, Gotze, who was his second man. We've sorted these things out, he said. How are you going to sort these things out? We're going to sort it out. Sign here. so I said again you're going to sort it out you know I have a contract here's an option that I continue don't worry we're going to sort this out we have lawyers in England we can do all that and did they sort it out? so I signed the contract happy to drive a Ferrari next year was a sensation for me that's the pinnacle correct So then we came to England in that race.

48:58I was signed for Ferrari, still driving for BIM. This was in 1974. Came to England, Prince Hedge race. Suddenly a big panic in the paddock on Thursday that there are some legal people coming to put an injunction on the Ferrari transporters. Because Stanley found out that I have signed for Ferrari. And Stanley said, Ferrari wants to do that, I'm going to show them what's going to happen. So panic in the paddock, I knew about it. Eccleston was running his team at the time. Ecclestone was the number one guy in the paddock team managers. Bernie Ecclestone, who used to run a team and became a leader.

49:58Had a Formula One. In England, I went over to Bernie, which I knew. I said, Bernie, I have a problem. They want to put an injunction on the Ferrari Transporter because I signed for them next year. I said, nobody can put an injunction on the Ferrari Transporter in Bradshatch for this race, and I'm part of this organization here or whatever. I got to sort this thing out. So there was no injunction on the Ferrari transport. Everything worked out. So what I'm trying to say, it was a touch and go, my legal fight with B &M and Ferrari. In the end, nothing happened. I think they made an agreement amongst themselves that I could freely go and everybody was happy.

50:35How did you view Enzo Ferrari at that time? He was for me the most charismatic guy I've ever met in my life. Why? because he was a very tough cookie, very tough, hard, demanding man for his team, for his car and for himself. But he was an Italian with a big heart. So there was always this combination with him. If he respected you, and in the end he did respect me, he was hard with me like everybody else, but at the same time I knew that he liked you. and when you had this relationship it was fantastic to work with him. When you were a driver for him which he did not like good luck this was certainly not funny.

51:26What were your impressions of the car the Ferrari car the first time you drove it? I drove it in 73 after the season was stopped the first time in Fiorano with a Ferrari and the car was terrible. The car was understeering like hell and did not work at all. Because it was obvious. Because Ferrari in 1973 stopped halfway through the season racing because the car was so bad. Then in Monza they started again with a little better car but nowhere good. And then I drove the car the first time. I got out of the car. Piero Ferrari's son was there as an interpreter because I couldn't speak Italian. and the old man said to Pierre, ask him how the car is and I said the car is s***.

52:16Understeers like hell doesn't work in my normal straightforward language. And Pierre said you can't say the car is s***. Why? It is s***. I said in English. The old man was listening. And I can't say this to my father. Tell him. The car is no good. Tell him no good if this is a better word. But this is Ferrari. Ferrari is standing there. And then Piero said to him, Nicky said the car is no good. This little bit I understood. And then the old man said, what did he say? A Ferrari is no good? Yes, it's s***, I said even then. To him, direct. And then I tell you, I said s***, I made a mistake. And then nothing happened for 30 seconds.

53:05It was the longest 30 seconds of my life. And then he said, okay, what is ****? He doesn't steer. Front end is wrong, doesn't turn in. The BRM I drove was a perfect handling car, turned in, quick out, quick in. Engine was no good, but this was a good car. This is not a good car. So then he said, okay. Fuggieri, who was the engineer in charge at the time, come here. he spoke English explained it to him Lotto said the car is s*** for Gary was shocked too and then I said in English to for Gary Morrow you have to fix this car it's not working what is not working the front end it does not turn in when you turn the steering the whole thing goes straight how can it go quick but then the old man said I have enough of all this bullshit how much if for Gary fixed this car and he has to fix the car how much can it go quicker if the understeer is gone I said three tenths maybe five in Fiorano so the old man said fine and that amount of time means everything in racing if you don't go five tenths quicker you're fired why?

54:27because you say the car you say if you fix it you can go five tenths quicker but if you cannot deliver what you ask me to do then you have a problem. Goodbye." So we were standing there. Piero said, Nick why are you so stupid? Tell him it's a shit car. You can't do that. Then Foghieri was laughing with me in the end. He said, look, it is your car. I'm your driver. Let's get together and make this car one second quicker. So Foghieri changed the front suspension. we discussed it about the roll center difference and caster difference, all these kind of things. It took Fugari five days to fix this front suspension when it was completely wrong.

55:09We did the first test, we were eight-tenths quicker. So then my relationship with Fugari worked out perfect. Ferrari was happy that I fulfilled my obligations. And I tell you, this was the first time where I saw, after we delivered, that he respected me. I think this was very important. and from then on I had a very good time with him. Why after every time you test drove did you make a point of having direct contact with Enzo Ferrari even if that meant going to the factory? The reason was simply that I did not know because Ferrari at this time after his son died on leukemia, he never turned up at the race anymore.

55:54This was his decision. So he was only at home watching us testing, but he never went to the race events. And the funny thing was, when races did not go all the way right, and I came on Monday back to speak to him and the engineers, he always had some funny information what happened in the race. It was never that accurate the way we saw it. Then I went to Gotze, his press man, and I said, who informs Ferrari? For Gary? I said, for Gary, did you speak to him last night? No. Who informs Ferrari? Franco Lini, a journalist of an Italian big newspaper, was Ferrari's friend, which I did not know. And Franco Lini called him after every practice, after that, and gave him all the information.

56:47So, fine. I knew this and then Ferrari called me on Monday and said, why did you do this wrong, that wrong, this wrong, that wrong? He said, because Franco Lini has no idea. What do you mean? No, I'm just saying. Franco Lini has no idea. He's a journalist. I didn't give him the full message, but he knew what I was saying. So, but let's do me a favor. Let me call you after each practice. Let's get Franco out of the way. We're going to do it. okay agree and from that moment on it was easier to work with him because we gave him if we done something wrong we admitted it right away not through three different channels to come to him then we had a very good relationship the whole racing team attitude changed with him because we gave him the truth right away what transpired the time you're with Ferrari during contract negotiations he He paid me no money at all because I was happy to drive a Ferrari.

57:48So I did a very good job in the first year. I won a couple of races and I was really getting up to the top. And then he wanted to give me a longer contract. And then I was looking around who gets which money of the other drivers in England. And Ronnie Peterson at the time was the highest paid driver going to Lotus. and then I knew that he was getting$250 ,000,$300 ,000 a year, per year, and this was the number I had in my head. And as I had zero before, then he said, now let's make a new contract and quant te voy per guidare per me? What do you want? And I said,$300 ,000, whatever it was, 3 million shillings was the right way.

58:39And he said, okay. Then he picked up the phone, called his accountant della Casa, and he says, Quante in lire tre milioni di Cellini? How much in lire is three million shillings? To get the putter, told him the number. What? Put the phone out, screamed at me like he did not believe. How can you ask this amount of money? It is a Ferrari. In a Ferrari, you have to be happy to drive a Ferrari. Fine, it's a Ferrari, but you still need a driver to move your car around quick. So I said, I want three million. That's it. And he looked at me, called the De La Casa again, tried to argue forward and backward, a little bit up and down.

59:28He said, no, please, please pay, because the other get the same amount of money. It's not unfair what I'm asking you. Ask the English guys what they get. In the end, he paid me. and then he was happy anyway after because we won the world championship again afterwards or we won the world champion afterwards but then the biggest mistake I did I have to say now in 77 when I left them I didn't feel being treated right in a way because he put me in number 2 position for it so I didn't like that so then I had another offer from Eccleston who had the premium team to leave Ferrari and go to drive for a lot of money.

1:00:09And then he called me, I signed with Bernie. Ferrari called me to the factory and said, now let's sit down, discuss the future. And normally you do this with him alone, that he does not have to take a decision. But at that time, it was Fulgueri there, De La Casa there, the money man. He was there, Gotzi was there. And I was sitting on the other side of the table and he says, how much do you want to continue our relationship? because I just won the world championship. That said nothing. What do you mean? No, I'm leaving. You're leaving. Are you crazy? Get the most out of your vehicle with GM Genuine Parts and ACDelco Original Equipment.

1:00:51The only parts designed, engineered, tested, and backed by General Motors. You can find your perfect fit for most makes and models and choose from three tiers of parts, including GMOE or gold and silver aftermarket parts. Visit gmparts.com for more information. Send Help is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. We're somewhere in the Gulf of Thailand. Getting us out of here should be your focus. I'm your boss. You work for me. You're not in the office anymore. It's bold, relentless, and endlessly rewatchable. Discover why critics give it 93 % on Rotten Tomatoes. You're so fired. Oh, am I?

1:01:34No help is coming. Send help. Rated R. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. How much do you want? I pay you any money you want. Sir, I have taken a decision. I'm going to drive for Eccleston, Bremer for Romeo. Unfortunately, I'm under contact. This was the right decision for me at the time. I'm leaving. Then he was not happy. What did he do? He screamed around. He talked with his guys in Italian forward and backwards. But then in the end, there was nothing to do. And when I left this meeting, I will never forget this. I felt light as a feather because all this pressure I had, which you take every day and you don't realize, suddenly was gone.

1:02:22The Ferrari pressure to perform. And I felt completely happy, I have to say. Looking backwards, it was a big mistake. I should have stayed. I should have asked him the same amount of money what Bernie paid me. I would have been more successful. But at the time, it was for me the right decision, even if it was wrong, because of all this experience after the accident, how difficult was it to get his support back? He put right the money in the car, made me a number two, then I won again the championship. So in all this, I didn't want to forget. I had it in the back of my mind. But looking back, it was wrong to leave him.

1:02:59So to make a long story short, I lost the championship in 76 because of my accident by one point. And then I called him right away from Tokyo and said, I'm sorry I lost the championship, but for me the conditions to drive were unacceptable. Very simple. and he said to me, Nicky, I fully agree, I fully support what you have done, no problem. Then I had to stop for one month because I needed another operation here on my eye and I couldn't be there. Operation was finished, I came down to Ferrari again after one month and I said, now I'm ready, I'm full fit, so let's start again to work. And then he said, we want to start to work, but I have taken some different decisions now.

1:03:51Mr. Reutemann is the number one driver and you are the number two driver.

1:04:01My contact says I'm number one driver. Yeah, I know. I don't care. Reiterman, I'm 100 % sure he's the better one than you. You will not recover as quickly as you think. Therefore, he's the number one driver. It's the first change I'm doing. So is that good? Let me think about it. So I went out, walked around the car, didn't know what to do. and he had his office there, he was in there with Gotze, came back in and said, if you don't fulfill your contract, which is very simple, I want you to let me go because if you don't want me as a number one driver, I don't expect a number two driver position, let's finish the contract.

1:04:48Simple. You take somebody else up and I go. This was all in November. Then he said, no. Where do you want to go? McLaren. McLaren was the competitive car at the time. Why do you think you can go to McLaren? I just spoke to Ron Dennis out of the office. So I left again and now the Italian fear came up. Call me back in, said you're right, mistake, number two driver, forget it, but nevertheless, the right man is in charge now of the whole development of the car, and he's in charge of all this, but I cannot ask you to be a number two. And what do you want me now to do? you can go to Fiorano now today and test brake pads.

1:05:47Brake pads test is done by mechanics. All you need to do is run around the circuit with the Form 1 car and run in the brake pads. So I said, are you serious that I should do the brake pads? Yes. sir I'm going to go to McLaren because this is again against my contract so I said where's the next test the next test is in three days in Porica the most important test at the end of the season and right the one is going to do this test right the one is going to do this test alone, yes go to McLaren against my contract so then they didn't know what to do then he said fine you're right you can test the last day so he's in charge three days you can test the fourth day okay fine went down first day watched Reutemann driving my car all day long watched all the mechanics what they do what they write down tire pressures and then the last day came mechanics were tired everybody thought now Mr.

1:06:59Reutemann the hero is gone. Why the hell do we have to drive now? A bit louder because all the mood was bad because Ferrari doesn't want him anyway. You could feel all that. Guys, I'm running now. So get ready. They get ready. Drive three laps. Car understeers like hell. Changed the front wing. Said give me the front springs. This way changed the front roll bar. Thank you very much. Took an hour. They changed everything. Went out again. Test the car. Shoot the drive. Give me a new set of tires. tires on eight tenths quicker than right around in two laps he tested three days I tested eight laps out of the car where you want to go home I have tested enough you guys want to test here's the Argentinian guy test with him I've proved to myself that I'm quick eight tenths quicker than this guy I'm happy I go home now.

1:07:55Everybody looked. Ferrari called the engineers and said tell Laura to come immediately to the factory. Okay, drove up to the factory. What can I do? I want you to be in charge of the test. Thank you. We could have done it all easier. And all these things happened. Then I won again the championship in 77 for him in front of Reutemann. And then I left. And this was the reason I left. What about how Enzo Ferrari handled the crash made you ultimately decide to leave? You know, in addition to what you've already touched on. There was an important thing with the crash that when I decided after 40 days that I want to try the car again.

1:08:46I called them. I said I want to come down to Firano to test if I can drive. The problem was that my hand is burned here very badly and they forgot to put transplant of skin here. So this was very painful. So I wanted to test this with the gloves being covered if I can handle this. All this was completely burned, logically all open and blood. So I wanted to try the balaclava, put the helmet on which was not easy because of the year pain I had and all this needed to be tested so I came to Fiorano with my trainer we tried everything I drove well there the pain was reasonable I could fix with some protection everything and then I decided after long day testing yes I'm ready to go to monster which was three days later I came over the Ferrari I said, yes, sir, I tried everything, everything's fine, I have a race.

1:09:47And then he looked at me and said, not a good idea. I said, why? Because if we lose the championship, you lose the championship, for me. If you come later in the season, everybody will accept or understand why you lost the championship. Because of your accident. If you come too early, you can still fight for the championship with the points. And if you lose then it's bad for you, for me, for everybody. So I said, what is going on with this guy? He wants to get out of this explanation thing, why we lose the championship. Ah! No, no, no, no, no. Your problem is Reutemann. What do you mean? Because Legazzone is driving, Reutemann is driving, and me.

1:10:40and my contract says two cars. Is this why you want to stop me driving? No, it is because of your own safety and bullshit and forward and backwards. I said, fine, I know that Reutemann is here because you had to sign him up because you did not expect me to whenever I come out of the hospital. So I understand that. I agree with this, that we have three cars now. but if I'm back and I'm racing competitive Reitemann has to go again because we have two cars running ok yes I understand but do you really want to go to Monza yes let Reitemann drive I don't care but from then on it's only like it's only me ok so then he agreed on all this but what happened then is when I came on Thursday to Monza for preparing for practice on Friday, suddenly the organizers said, we have to do a medical check.

1:11:44Because I had a medical check done in Austria, I had all the papers to say I'm fit. They say, you have to do another one. So I said, well, I have to do another one. Here is my paperwork. No, no, no, in Italy you have to do another one. And they bothered me all Thursday afternoon with some stupid tests, breaking really my whole confidence. getting ready for the race by doing all these tests. In the end, they had to let me through because I was fit. And then I thought maybe Ferrari started all this, telling the organizers, check louder carefully, because he was still sure to protect me, is to let me stay home for Monza.

1:12:24Do you think that's what he did? I think this could have been part of, not himself, but the Ferrari team maybe could have convinced him. But the problem for me was that this Thursday was for me a disaster because I wanted to concentrate on my racing starting tomorrow and not being medically checked, done. So then on Friday morning I turned up there, pressure like you do not believe, the newspapers, the journalists, the press, can you not drive, can you not drive, medical checks. All these things were spilling up to me in the morning like you do not believe. Then I got out of the pits, tried to get out of the pits, and I could not drive.

1:13:01I put it in second gear and suddenly I had a block in my whole brain. Being frightened, I saw myself driving through a guardrail, which never happened, and I was completely blocked that I could not drive this car. So I slowly went back into the pits, being completely confused what happened now, because in Fiorano I could drive and here I cannot. So I had to get out of the car. I told the team, unfortunately, I don't feel well. I have to go back to the hotel. Went back to the hotel and tried to explain to myself what happened now. Why is suddenly everything coming back from the accident, which never bothered me before?

1:13:44Then I said, maybe after a sleepless night, let's do it different. Go there tomorrow, Saturday, final day for the Italian Grand Prix, and drive there on your own. don't worry about the competition, the race, the qualifying speed and whatever. Get in the car and try to get confident back that I'm handling the car. Got in the car, didn't look at any other time, said to my mechanics, don't show me any left times, I only want to drive. And this was the right decision. So the pressure was gone, I could get in, concentrate on driving, got quicker and quicker and quicker, fear was not there at all. And when practice was over, I was quick as Ferrari.

1:14:28So right there when I got somewhere behind me. So that gave me certainly confidence. So I gave myself too much pressure before, being ready too soon, therefore I could not drive on Friday. And then from then on it worked pretty normal. But it was how Ferrari handled you coming back from the crash that made you decide just enough was enough and ready to move on. the crash obviously nearly took your life what do you remember from waking up in a German hospital? I remember in the first hospital which was right to the circuit I do not remember anything but I know that they told me afterwards the team manager came to look at me I said to him my clothes is in the room, my car, rent the car, key is there, please take care of it.

1:15:29But I can't remember this. So I was thinking still logically what has to be done and tell my wife that I'm fine. The first thing I remember is that I was put in a helicopter and I heard the helicopter starting to run. and I woke up and I saw a doctor next to me with a bottle in his hand and a white cloth. I saw a face. So I said to him, where are we going and how long is the flight? So he said, 45 minutes, we go to Manhattan. Then I was gone again. Then the next thing I remember was in the hospital, in the next one, where I heard a lot of voices which I could not identify. And there was one guy saying, I am Krakales, the doctor of Amazon Fittipaldi.

1:16:28He was a German guy who Fittipaldi had around for the races for him. And he, by accident, was on duty in that hospital where they took me to. Because this was the hospital for racing accidents of the Nürburgring. So finally I said, ah, there's one voice I know. and it's always better to speak to somebody you know than to other people. Sure. So it gave me a little bit of confidence. And then I remember the doctors talking about if we give him oxygen he will die. I said, oh, interesting remark. I will die. And then only so fragments of discussions came to me. This I remember very well. But to make a long story short, after eight years or ten years, I met the doctor in Hockenheim and I asked him what happened to me really in this terrible accident.

1:17:34He said, you know, the reason you are alive is that you stayed conscious for a while and did not give up to go in a sleeping mode, which a lot of people do. If the pressure gets too hard, they simply get unconscious. And then you cannot proactively talk to your patient anymore. And the strength you had is that we could talk to you. So even, I said it was not very clever to say in front of me, if we give him oxygen, he's going to die. This certainly does not help me. Yes, maybe this was a mistake. But the most important was that we could communicate with you. Because if we communicate with a patient who is dying, we have him on board with his brain to react accordingly what we tell him to do.

1:18:23And this was one of the secrets, I think, that I try to stay awake, to follow the instructions, because for me it was clear. The only way is for me to stay alive if the doctors can keep me alive, because I can't do anything. I'm there anyway half dead. And this was really the part of my recovery, that I was always there to fully support what they asked me to do. How well do you recall the priest giving you your last rites? The nurse said to me, because I could not see anything, I could only hear, because everything was burnt. And talking was difficult because I had a tube down my thing. I could only nod, yes or no, nothing more I could do.

1:19:06And when she said to me, do you want a priest? So I said, why does he want me to ask him about a priest? Then he said, to give you the last right. Then I said, oui. He said, I've never heard in my life before. I need somebody to give me the last right. But then I said, if there's anybody out there, why not? Let's use him. I mean, such terrible conditions. So I nodded, said yes, maybe it helps. Because I want to stay alive anyway. And then nothing happened. Because the priest thought I'm unconscious. He was only standing next to me. Maybe he said to her, we'll be at the army or whatever. Gave me the last right and left again.

1:19:49But I expected him to talk to me. Like the nurse talked to me. He saw that the nurse talked to me. And I nodded. But he didn't. He only touched me on my shoulder. Gave me the last right and left. And then I said, this can't be true. So I really got upset. And said to myself, now I'm going to stay alive. Because this was another thing which annoyed me in a positive way to really keep my brain on working, to stay there and follow the doctor's instructions. The doctors were forced to vacuum your lungs. What did that entail? This was terrible because they asked me, this is the way to, the oxygen does not work.

1:20:29They explained it after again. But if you put a tube in your lung and we try to vacuum all these burns and carbon pieces, plastic pieces you had in your lungs, this can certainly help you to recover. It was a method which was never used before. A lot of times was just invented. And sure, I'm going to do whatever they ask me to do. And then they said one important thing. As more often you do it, as quicker you recover. So they put a tube all the way down into your lung and then they vacuum all these pieces and pieces of the lungs. So what happens, the lung completely collapses. You cannot breathe.

1:21:13And the time they do it, you have no air and you panic, basically. And it was really painful and horrible. But, again, they said, as more often you do it, do it. So then, I don't know, after half an hour, I said, let's do it again. The doctor said, no, no, no, it's too early. wait because otherwise you're gonna die because of that so I got a message and did it as much as I could to get quickly these things out of my lungs and then after three days more or less I was sure that I can stay alive. What was the lasting physical damage from the crash? When the lung was fixed after five six days I had to go over to the other hospital to do all this transplant so So all this part here is transplanted.

1:22:03The top end of my head was transplanted, and this part here was transplanted. They took the skin from my leg and put it up, so which is a normal operation. But the problem was, when I woke up again after this operation, I found myself lying in a bed with the lights on the top, my hands tied down to the bed, and the nurse sitting next to me reading a book. So I said, when I woke up, I said, what are you doing here? I watch you that you don't touch your face. Because if you touch your face, you're going to destroy the operation. You're not allowed to touch your skin. Therefore, we tie down your hands that by accident, when you sleep over there, we don't touch anything.

1:22:47I have to watch all that. Then I got a little better. Then I could stand up. And then there was another nurse which was more friendly than the other one and said to me, do you want to look in a mirror? And you had not seen yourself up until that point? No, it was an operation. No way. So she got me out of bed, dragged me into this bathroom and put me in front of a mirror because she had to guide me there because my eyes were closed. And then she says, try to open your eye. So I took this one because it was less than it. So I opened my eye a little bit. myself and looked in this mirror I could not believe it my head started my shoulders up and head was this size and I only like I could never see anything like this then I said will this change you're sure it will change is heat and water you understand you burn yourself it's all heat and water because if you have a bad accent like you, this is the way you look.

1:23:56I said, how long does it take that this stupid water gets out of my face? This I cannot tell you. And then I was looking again and I said, if I look through the rest of my life like this, what are you going to do? I talked to myself. Then I said, nothing I can do. This is the way it is. So I had an accident, I lost my ear, I looked like this, thank God I'm alive. I accept it. This is the way it is. So, out of this, back home, because then I had enough of the hospital, I signed a letter that I can leave. So I was flown home by my, I had a plane there at the time. I was flown home to. And if I could jump in just momentarily, why at that time did you decide against cosmetic surgery and only get.

1:24:54Be careful, at that time there was nothing to do with cosmetic surgery because as I said, all the transplants are going to tell you one thing in a minute. Okay. Because of this accident. There was nothing to do about that at the time. So, then I accepted the way I look. Then I released myself from the hospital. I had to come back every two days to check my burns. And I went home. In Salzburg, my wife was there. I have a farmer sitting, a little next to me, which I know very well. He's a real farmer. And I said to Malene, bring the farmer up. She says, why do you want the farmer up? I want to speak to him.

1:25:38Say hello. My neighbor, I like him. And then I put myself in my living room in a position where I could see him coming in. So the farmer has his funny head on, his Virginia cigar on the top, a real man from the mountains of Salzburg. And he came into the room, he looked at me, had a shock like I do not believe, and looked the other direction. I said shit I really look bad I shock people the way I look and then again I said to myself this is the way it is I can never fix this because sure you can do cosmetic surgery but what do you change you cannot put a new face on me so I have this effect now to people that I shock them but I have to say at that time my head was still stubble.

1:26:34So it got much better, certainly, as you hopefully can see. Right, right. So, but that again, that a guy from the mountains is shocked. If I go in town where other people live, who make a lot of plastic surgeries, they all want to look good and all this, I said, shit, if I go to Vienna, it will be worse for these people. But if this guy is so shocked, I really look bad. And then I took a decision. this is the way it is. So fine. I can live with it because I put myself through all this and for me it does not bother me at all. And then I had the problem that when I spoke to people they always looked like this.

1:27:19I had the cap on because the cap is my protection for stupid people looking at me stupidly. They always want to see what the hell is going on under the cap. and to protect myself feeling more comfortable I put a cap on and even with a cap on the people always talk to me like this so what would you do if I talk to you like this I said can you look in my eyes and then he will have a shock like you do you look at my eyes it's still today no no okay no but it is early days I got it yeah and then because the accident when I was famous because the accident, it was Burmese after death and everybody was highly interested how the hell does he look like.

1:28:04And this went on for quite a while. The people always tried to understand what is under the cap, but I didn't want to show them anyway. So there have been incidents where I was hurt by people who don't understand to meet somebody who looks ugly, burned or or whatever, treat him normal. They always been treated, they treated me so bad that the only interest they had in me was to look what happens under the cap. And that really annoyed me. So when people came and I felt this, look in my eyes, you wanna talk to me for a sec. And by the way, I have an accident for as an excuse to look ugly. Some people don't have this excuse.

1:28:51They are ugly. I tell you, this is the way I recovered my problems for myself. Sometimes I feel very nasty to other people. If they're nasty to me, I gave them this answer. What was the nastiest comment or question or headline that you remember from back then? I know one very well when I did my first press conference to announce my comeback in Monza. I had a huge press conference in Salzburg. I explained why I'm coming back, all the normal sporting questions. Then one guy said, what does your wife say today how you look? I said, what do you mean? Now you should not upset the way you look now. Can you imagine she wakes up every day in the morning next to you and you look like this?

1:29:41Are you serious with this question or is this a joke? No, I'm serious. So I left the conference because this was hard. Then the guy walked after me after the press conference again and asked the same questions. Really? Yeah. I said, listen, if you don't stop now being so unpolite and rude, I'm going to kick you in your pulse like you do not believe. And then he left. But this was another funny experience how people treat you. How did that make you feel? I said, how can this be? I mean, what are these people thinking? I mean, for me, I was a sensitive, burned, weak individual at the time, because you needed a lot of strength to overcome all this, which I certainly got back.

1:30:28So as soon as I had all this bad experience, I had to protect myself. Then I was very, very straightforward. Look in my eyes, and my excuse is my accident. Look at yourself, how you look. And then the whole thing stopped. How soon after your recovery did you begin thinking about whether or not you wanted to come back? After I was fit, my trainer was with me. I said, can I race or not? He said, yes, if we train hard, I think in two weeks we can get you ready. And then I had to take a decision, do I want to take the same chances again to kill myself or not? And as racing, driving was my job at the time, I always knew how dangerous it was right from the beginning.

1:31:12I was not surprised to have an accident, but I was happily surprised, it sounds funny now, that I'm still alive. Really? Yeah, because I knew that's what I was putting myself into. I saw every year one or two guys getting killed. So this was my world. So my accident, I was lucky, I was alive. So therefore I didn't have much problem to decide to go back to take the same chances before, because I knew how dangerous it was. It was not that I was put something into which I didn't know what it was all about. So from this point of view, I said, if Dunkel tells me I'm fit, I can drive again, I really want to see how long it will take me to come back.

1:31:54I think you were listening to Bob Marley when you made the decision. Bob Marley, yeah, yeah, the music. Why? Because I like music. And Bob Marley at the time was my favorite singer, and I liked the music, so I was singing to the music and then I decided, do you want to come back or not? So I just motivated myself in a good mood to take the decision. And then I took the decision and off I went. And after the crash you told yourself you'd stop making stupid mistakes. Like what? It's very simple. If you've been through this and you know how close you have been to die, Then I said now I have to take some consequences out of this.

1:32:39And this applies for everybody even today. How many people hurt themselves or die because they are not careful enough or stupid or make mistakes because they drink and drive a car or whatever. So I said to myself after this experience I will never ever do anything in my life where out of stupidity of myself or not thinking, I risk something. I'll give you a simple example. How many people broke their arm in the shower when they showered and slipped and fell down? A lot of people can do that. So I said I will never sleep in the shower because when I go in, I do one step, check the other step, and don't take stupid chances to hurt myself or even kill myself.

1:33:27and even driving road cars or flying, all these kind of things. I know that I have to be responsible. I will do nothing wrong to hurt anybody or myself. So why six weeks after the crash so soon do you make the decision to come back? Because I thought as quick I go back, as easy as it must be. Because if we stay home, and thank God I was ready after 40 days because there could have been all this healing process takes much longer. But thank God, after 40 days, I was able to drive. So then the first thing was, let's get in and see how much is left now of fear. How can I overcome this? And I thought at the time, which is right, if you would have an accident, maybe it was not your fault today in a road car, the best thing for you is to overcome this risk you took or you had to yourself.

1:34:21Get in and drive as quick as you can again. because if you get back onto the steering wheel being in charge, then you can overcome your fear. If you sit back and you cannot and you worry forward and backward, what is my fault, what can I do different? You need to get back into your old business to overcome all this. And therefore the timing, the shorter it is, the better it is. I believe it was 2006 you went back to the site of the crash with the driver that rescued you, as well as F1 chairman Bernie Ecclestone and a few bottles of beer. What transpired? The point was we had this stupid friend, Carl Hans, who was Bernie's caterer at the time, who said, let's go up to the Nürburgring place and we drink some schnapps there.

1:35:08So I said, why not? It was, I don't know, 20 years after, 30 years after, I can't remember the date. So we all drove there, stopped, The old Nürburgring was not used for racing. We raced at the new Nürburgring. So there was nothing there except the woods and the trees and the grass. And then Karl Hans, this idiot, dropped a pig ear. A pig ear. He cut off at home. He comes from the countries. And put his pig ear into the grass. And suddenly, three bicycle guys came by, German guys, pie-striving on the networking. And they saw me. Ah, Niki Lauda, what are you doing here? And I said, Karl Lange said, he's looking for his ear.

1:35:58And they said, what? And they really got upset with him. Yeah, because it was a joke they didn't understand. We had a couple of schnapps, we understood what he meant. And they really got upset. And then Karl Lange said to me, show them that you find your ear. Where do you want me to look? Go a little further. Go, go, go, go, go, go. And there was this pig's ear he put there. I found my ear. Thank God we took pictures with this pig ear. So it was fun. What did the cyclists say? They shook their hands and they left. Their heads and they left. I understand you don't remember the crash, but there was one time where you were smoking really strong marijuana in Ibiza.

1:36:49This was 100 years ago. Where you had recollection? Yeah. My cousin came and said, smoke this. I never did before, to be honest. And Marlene took a bath I did, and then I felt sick like you do not believe. So I had to go to the bathroom. and before putting everything out I was standing in front of my bathtub whatever I call it and I saw the hole where the water go through and I suddenly got locked up in this hole and get back the same impression I had at one stage at the hospital I saw myself flying backwards into a big hole very slowly very leaf, very nice flight. And I said, hey, what's happening now?

1:37:44I'm going to die. Because it was such a nice feeling to get this impression going down. And I immediately switched from my brain and said, no, no, no, no, no. You're dying, you're dying. Listen, listen to the doctors, listen to the doctors. And this came back only once in my life, like you just explained. When I looked at this hole, just trying to get rid of this stupid smoking thing. This came back once, and it was funny. It never came back before. It only came back once and never again. The other significant crash that you had in your life was that of a plane in the airline that you ran. How did you find out one of your planes crashed and 213 passengers and 10 crew members were killed?

1:38:38Lauda Air had a six-month-old 767, brand-new airplane. The flight was coming from Bangkok to Vienna, and I was called at 10 minutes to 10 in the evening from the news television channel, and the lady said to me, We had just had a report that one of your planes crashed just outside of Bangkok. So I said to her, let me check. Called the company and said, get in touch with the plane. And they said, we can't. So, and then slowly the messages came and it was right that the 767 came down. And then I went to the office in the evening and we all got together. and we thought I'd never been confronted with a terrible accident like this.

1:39:32What are we going to do? Let's make a plan. So I took a plane, next day came down there. The authorities waited for me, took me in a helicopter to this place which was on the border to Burma, basically, in some mountain places where the plane was crashed. So we landed, took a car, drove up, and suddenly I saw some white stuff and looked out of the window like napkins and other things on the ground. This is my napkins and as closer you got as bigger the pieces of the airplane were because the airplane came all the way down was spread over five kilometers and then I saw this whole terrible mess and the The impression was first of all my airplane, what happened.

1:40:28And then I saw the local people there taking rings and jewels from bodies lying around in the jungle. Mm. And luggage and pieces all over the place. I saw handbags of cabin attendants which I knew. So it was terrible. This was a scene which I will never ever forget. because for me this was the worst ever. It was my accident, nothing against what I saw down there. But I had a Boeing representative with me, which I took right from Vienna, who went there because I asked him in Vienna, have you ever seen a crash? He said, yes, so come with me. And there we looked around. We saw one engine here, the other engine there, and the frame of the airplane and some other places.

1:41:22and then I asked him if he can find out anything here, what he could see. He said, no, it's all a mess. And I saw on one engine the thrust reverse deployed, and on the other one, which was two kilometers away, the thrust reverse not deployed. And I said to him, why is this? He said, it comes up from 28 ,000 feet, don't worry about it, it's the way it is. crushes into the ground and that's the way it is. So, then we went home and then I was very proactive, telling all the time if there was no new news. Why? Because I was called by relatives to victims, every day, about 50, always asking me the same question.

1:42:16Mr. Lauda, why? And I immediately realized what is the most important for these people in all this sadness, losing one of their kids, husbands, wives, whatever, to give them a reason. So therefore, I pushed hard, like, you know, to not believe. I said in the first place, I said, if this is the responsibility of Lauda Air, that this airplane crashed, I have to resign immediately because I was not able to let an airplane fly safely from A to B. And as soon as I said this, it released me completely from making now the biggest effort to find out what went wrong. And I stayed in touch with the authorities.

1:43:08I stayed in touch with Boeing every day to understand what happened. And it was a long ongoing thing because when we went to Washington right after the crash, about three days later, with a black box and a voice recorder, the flight data recorder was destroyed, unfortunately. It was supposed to hold up to 900 degrees and the tape inside should be alive, but unfortunately it was destroyed. Today all these voice recorders and flight data recorders are different at this time. So we had no indication of a flight data recorder because there you would have known immediately what happened. The only thing we had was the voice recorder.

1:43:53The voice recorder worked and the voice recorder, as I was flying the 767 myself, was the following. they started in Bangkok completely normal, pilots operated normal. And then when the accident happened in 28 ,000 feet, Mach Point A zero, the 767 was climbing. There was a huge rattle in the cockpit. You could hear big noises. The pilots did not speak to each other anymore. And I said there must have been something wrong so quickly that they could not even talk to each other. because if something goes on an airplane, the first thing is you talk to your colleague, checklist, what can we do, what is the action we have to do.

1:44:38And they didn't speak a word. You could only hear out of the microphone of the captain that he says, we are upside down, to himself, not to the other guy. And then he said, we're going down, we're going down, we're going down. So, and when this, when I heard this, I said something must have happened so quickly that they couldn't do anything. And then unfortunately, for eight months, we had to wait before Boeing found out on a test bed where they put the thrust river system of the 767, an O-ring fell out of a valve which pushed the trusty was out which can never do this in when you're flying instead of holding it in so eight months later then finally the cause was out it was a design failure on the trusty was system which brought this to the 23 people down tomorrow morning is knocking stock your fridge now how about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla or smooth caramel maybe, or white chocolate mocha.

1:45:48Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips? That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19 ,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs. So you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm.com. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. When the investigators initially came out with findings in advance of that, alleging it was your fault, you were immediately unconvinced.

1:46:34No, because I'm sure it could have been our fault too, but I pushed hard. I said that from day one, I don't care whose fault it is, I want to know. I had to go to a funeral in Bangkok where the last 23 victims could not be identified, put in one big graveyard. And this again for me was one of the worst situations because there was an elderly wife, woman, with a little kid about 10 years old who smashed something into this graveyard. And when I heard this and saw this, I went to this lady and said, what is the boy doing here? He said he collected all these mussels. What do you call it? The mussels from the sand on the beach.

1:47:28Like seashells? Seashells. He collected all the seashells on the holiday because he stayed with me longer in Bangkok and both of his parents died and he put them down there. So you can imagine, I mean when you have all this close to you, what this happens to, what happens to people in this moment, I was extremely affected by this. Then we had a speech there and I had to explain and did everything and then we had three different religions to make all this happen. And down there, I got a phone call then from Boeing that I should come up straight from Bangkok to Seattle. They know now the cause, and I should fly the simulator.

1:48:16So I flew straight up there. I had a simulator. As I was the pilot at the time, I could do all that. And when the fault happened, the airplane turned around and just crashed. So then I went to Boeing and said, fine. what are you going to do now? And they said, yes, Mr. Lawyer, it's not that easy. We have to look now with all the lawyers what explanation we're going to do. We know we have to do that. And I said, how long does it take? It takes a couple of months. Why a couple of months? Do we know the cause or not? Yeah, we know the cause. but we have to make sure that there's no risk in getting sued and this and that we have to find the right wording so that I cannot wait three months I don't want to so what we can do is following take a 767 up with two pilots exploit a trust reverse in 28 ,000 feet and if nothing happens then I want to be with them on the next flight and look at it myself.

1:49:25You can't do that because your plane crashed. Yes, but then make a release now. Because why do I have to have all the responsibilities since eight months on my back for this airplane crash? It was a design problem, not my problem. So please do it. They released on the same day the cause of the crash and then explained to everybody, because I said, for me, the biggest problem are the victims. These people need an answer, and the answer has to be understood why they all got killed. And this is your responsibility to tell these people. And then in the end, it took, unfortunately, eight months, then we gave everybody the explanation why this accident happened.

1:50:13So all the time delays of airplane crashes is the worst for the victims. If they do not get an answer, why I've lost my wife, friends, or kids. What got you into the aviation business was when you retired from racing, and it was 1979.

1:50:44How did you know and what did you say in conversation to your then team head Bernie Ecclestone that led to him tearing up your contract for the next year? It was very simple. Bernie is a hard cookie. There's no question. He knows his business. I was trying for him and I negotiated a new contract with him where I asked him for$2 million, which was a lot of money at the time. Bernie said there's no way I'm ever going to pay you this amount of money. You get 500 ,000. 500 ,000, I won't drive for you. It doesn't matter, this is the way it is. So he went to all the other teams and said if Lotto turns up and wants 2 million, just tell him there's no 2 million.

1:51:26So I went to the other teams and said 500 ,000 because Bernie had a good network of people. But Bernie needed sponsorship on the car. Parmalat was the Italian sponsor which was sponsoring my cab for 25 years and we sat down with the chairman or with the CEO there and and for anyone to sign up the car sponsorship and Mr. Tansey asked him is Nicky driving? Sure Nicky is driving. Yes he is. He said I'm not driving. Why? Because I have no contract. He offers me 500 ,000 and want two million doesn't drive. I don't drive. So then Tansy said, then I'm going to not sign the sponsorship for the car. And he left us.

1:52:11Then I was sitting there with Bernie. He said to me, are you serious? Yes, I'm serious.

1:52:21Signed my two million. And then I expected him to explode. Then he said, no. Honestly, I have respect. Did a good job to drag me down here that he did not sign with me because I didn't sign with you. clever move. That was it. I mean he expected it and that was it. But then he was lucky because then I went to Montreal for the race and even when I signed for this two million contract I did not really feel a relief or happiness. It was a normal day for me. Then I went to Montreal, new car, new engine for Bernie, looked out of the window, misty day, terrible day, didn't feel well, got in the car and suddenly the curtain came down, I don't want to drive anymore.

1:53:09Surprised me like you do not believe, no real sign of it, except that I was miserable and I'm sometimes miserable. And then I said, you can't do that, you just signed the two million contract, just keep on going, keep on going. So I did another three laps, then realized, no, don't want to. I do not want anymore. Got out of the car, Bernie I need to talk to you, I'm retiring. I'm retiring. Are you sure? This is an emotional decision, think about it twice. Don't make a stupid decision now. I give you time now, don't practice in the afternoon, think about it carefully, don't make a mistake. Which I thought is very nice of Bernie.

1:53:52Then I thought again about it, no, Bernie you cannot change my mind I'm retiring. And he said, ah I saved two million. And then I retired for good the first time. And then the second time after you later came back, what about you starting to regularly think about the dangers of the sport made you realize it's time to go again? It was not the danger of the sport because I have to say when I came back in 82 with a McLaren it had a carbon fiber monocoque the first time carbon fiber strong as hell not like aluminium as before so the cars got much better in these days and the danger really was not anymore as bad as beforehand and then the second retirement was a real retirement not because of danger was simply I knew that all my life I cannot race I have to stop sooner or later anyway and when I stopped the second time I was sure it was the right decision.

1:55:00Yet Bernie who was thrilled years earlier to save two million on you made you a six million dollar offer and you still turned it down. Yeah I turned it down because when I came back I went to McLaren because Ron Dennis was the right man to call me at the right time coming out of retirement for two years and and then I started over again which again I wanted to prove to myself can I race after two year retirement because nobody has done this before and I have to say it turned out okay I won another championship I spent two days in Monaco with Nico Rosberg shortly following his retirement from Formula One and obviously wins the 2016 World Championship, is a Mercedes-Petronas driver, and then abruptly, unexpectedly retires.

1:55:54How fair do you think your criticism was of him? I think it was, from my point of view, completely normal because I'm in charge with Toto Wolf about our whole team. And if we get hit by our brand new world champion in November, that he's going to retire, it put us in a very difficult situation because we need the strongest his pair of drivers to continue to win and he left us just in the last moment. Even I respect his decision, the timing for us was really bad. And therefore I criticised him from the team point of view that if we do not find a quick replacement who is at least as good as he was, we're going to be in trouble.

1:56:40And I have to say my criticism is right. he called me a couple of times that look this is my view being in charge of the team as a racing driver understand I retired once with Bernie the same way yeah and then he had no driver so I did bad things to him too so if he would have criticized me had to respect it right because Nico made some comment that what you said to him privately was different than what you were saying publicly? No, I said to him privately, understand your decision. Which I have to. There's no choice anyway, but the situation we are in, if I look from the other side, where I'm responsible for 1 ,200 people, it's our decision.

1:57:24How do you feel about him today? I'm quite fine with him. I tell you, we have reacted very well, I have to say from a team point of view, to get Potas, because Potas is doing a very good job. a similar job than Nico does. Luis and Valtteri are pushing each other hard. So from the team performance point of view, we could replace, even in the last moment, Nico with Bottas properly. To what extent did anybody at all think there was even a remote possibility that he would retire? There was no sign whatsoever. I think he retired really because the pressure of Lewis was too hard for him to cope with in the future.

1:58:11Because Lewis is a tough cookie to drive for. And then he won the race with all these tricks, Lewis holding back and the others coming. And it was tough for him the whole year because Lewis was the world champion to get beaten. It was hard work. Do you think he's pleased with his decision now? Yes. He looks very happy, pleased. he makes no sign of any regret. He seems okay. If you had to guess, what do you think the likelihood is he ever comes back? Never. Never. Really? He continues like absolutely never. Why? Because he's so into his family, he seems to be so happy getting now the second kid.

1:58:48He's a different person. He took it all up because he wants to prove to himself that he can be world champion, like his father. and I think as soon as he achieved it he has no more motivation to continue. How did you handle the competition between Nico and Lewis Hamilton? It was very difficult because they certainly in the beginning everything was fine but it's more competitive they both got against each other because the last three years we had the Mercedes car which was quicker than any other car and we only raced each other. the competition was only between Nico and Luis who was going to be world champion and they were lifelong friends they were before but as harder the competition gets as more nasty they got to each other and they had no more relationship I would say the whole of last year in 16 and this for us was difficult sometimes because they worked so hard against each other even the engineering groups worked so hard against each other So we had in the team a funny situation, which I think we handled very well.

1:59:58Even if they crashed each other out in Barcelona and had some terrible damage to the team, not scoring any points, we handled it okay. How did it affect the team? We had huge competition between the team, which in the end was sometimes too much. But we put some regulations in. We told them, especially in Barcelona, when they crashed each other off, this is unacceptable for Mercedes. We have to win. One of you guys has to win. You cannot have each other off. So we had some rules put in, they understood. What were the rules? You are not allowed to. You have to pay penalties if you do it again. Or we're thinking of releasing your contract.

2:00:39Because we are team players here. The team cannot destroy each other. This was the thing. Toto came up with some good rules and in the end we had peace again. they fought hard and the accidents got reduced between themselves. In what ways were they nasty to each other? They had no relation, which is always bad. So they were so bad that they didn't even say hello in the morning to each other. I don't expect them to have breakfast together. If they don't like each other, you don't have to sit down and have breakfast. But they had a relationship that was really bad. It affected Luis mainly and Nico.

2:01:18So it was fine, but not easy. How did it affect Lewis? Lewis got so upset about him that even on their performance, sometimes they lost because they're playing tricks to each other and one didn't show the other one what setup he's using, which is bad for the team again because we both want to go forward, not only one. So they played all the tricks you can do, which I understood. I did myself too, but for the team, it was pretty tiring. At what point was the relationship the worst where Lewis actually started to distrust the team because of his competition with Nico? There have been some mistakes done that we did too.

2:02:08We changed once the mechanics one year to the other from Lewis's car to Rosberg's car and the other around. We did not tell the drivers, especially Lewis, beforehand, we're going to do that. They were upset about it because they didn't like each other, so suddenly they didn't like us. The logic change was to exchange the mechanics because we need to change them around anyway, so it was nothing against one of them to help the other. It was a simple system change we did. But we should have communicated to the drivers a little better. But there was a lot of aggravation going on last year. This year it's all different.

2:02:45When the relationship was at its worst, I believe you sat down with the two of them in a room together. Take me into that room and what was discussed between the three of you? No, we had discussions. I have to remember when, yeah, in Barcelona, when they hit each other. Toto and myself, first of all, explained to them that you can't do that. Very simple. And then the question was, whose fault was it? Because Niko was in the lead, Luis tried to pass him, Luis went to the inside, Crossberg blocked him on the inside, then they crashed, and both cars were out. and this was in the first lap. So not very clever.

2:03:35And then the big discussion was, whose fault was it? And for me it was clear that Lewis was too aggressive, going to the right, hit the grass, couldn't stop his car and then hit him off. Even Rosberg moved. And I said right away, straightforward, what is my opinion? And I said, if I have to choose between the two, it's more Lewis's fault than Nico's fault. And Lewis did not appreciate that because he was in a different opinion. And then... What did he say? He said, why do you criticize me? I said, excuse me, I cannot accept that you guys crash. And then we have nothing and nobody's fault it is.

2:04:22For me, it has to be somebody's fault. And then Lewis really got upset. and then Nico said yes you win it's your part two you move to the inside why did you not leave room enough for him that why should I I want to win the race so and then I asked Luis to come down to Ibiza to speak to me personally which he certainly did and then I said to Luis that red light flashing on the back of the cars today means that you do not have full power because the battery pack is not putting electricity in the engine. When that light flashes, you know you have 150 horsepower less. Therefore, we have this light installed, all the cars.

2:05:10And I said to Luis, when you followed him, did you see the red light flashing? I sure did. Why did he go on the inside? You You know he has 150 horsepower or less. Why didn't you pass him easy on the outside? Comcast is delivering extraordinary experiences in live sports through the incredible broadcast and storytelling from NBC, innovative and personalized viewing features on Xfinity and Peacock, and the country's most reliable Wi-Fi. Viewers can enjoy every game-changing play faster and more seamlessly than ever, all in a network built to deliver unforgettable moments as close to live as possible.

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2:06:29Yes and no and yes and no. But the good thing with me, I think, is that apart from the engineers and the team, I can speak the driver's language. So if I speak to him, I ask him these questions, maybe I'm wrong. But at least we speak the same language and we have respect to each other. Before you signed Lewis Hamilton, I believe you went around the paddock, asked people for their feedback on him. What sort of comments did people make? As I did not know him, I asked him, is he an easy guy to get on or is it difficult? because I had to find a way to talk to him. Some people said he's difficult, some people said he's easy.

2:07:16But then in Singapore, I had to meet him, I wanted to meet him, and I went up to the paddock and said, I want to talk to you. And he said right away, yes, and he said, yes, come up to my room, hotel so-and-so at 2 in the morning because practice was so late. He said, I've never been up at 2 in the morning in somebody else's hotel room. So, nevertheless I turned up there and Luis did not know me, I did not know him, apart from who we were. Right. And I have to say, straightforward, same language, he was completely open, transparent, asked me the right questions. For example, he asked me one question, why the hell should I leave McLaren and come to you if you are now fifth in the Constructors' Championship?

2:08:04The McLaren is a much more competitive car. What did you say? I was for 10 seconds speechless. I said, what should I tell him now? He's right. And I said, but what would happen if you would win a world championship in a Mercedes? Because you can then prove to the whole world that you've been the first world champion in a Mercedes. Then I thought, this was half of my victory to make him think in that direction. And then I got him really on the competitive edge to say, join us. And I tell you, I will do everything I can do to give you a competitive car. This I can assure you. With all my efforts, the whole team will support you like you do not believe.

2:09:00and years later or one year later I met him again and said I was right now what do you mean I said I'm gonna give you a competitive car because the last three years the last four years he had the most competitive car he could get and in McLaren it went the other direction so I have a good relation with him I know him I like him we speak the same language we have respect of each other good what do you respect about him? He's the quickest guy. This is for me most talented guy around today. He's easy to handle in a way for me at least. Even he's completely different to all the other guys. He enjoys life in a different way than anybody else.

2:09:46He travels around between the races. He tweets from everywhere. He comes back he's there he's fit you need to give him this freedom that makes him strong some other guys do it completely different they train every day they concentrate but Lewis is Lewis I like him he performs fantastic why do you think Lewis and Valtteri get along better than Lewis and Nico so there's no friction at all they like each other they have breakfast with each other they They speak to each other. There's nothing wrong at all between the two from the baseline point of view. Therefore, it's much easier. And Potters is as competitive as Lewis is.

2:10:29He out-qualifies him sometimes. He wins races. So for Lewis, he's a big threat. Nevertheless, the personal relationship is good. Why do you think that is? Different people, they respect each other. I don't think they like each other or they need to be friends. they need to respect each other in a fair way and in the end Nico and Luis was the other way around and therefore we had a very good start with Valtteri now being with Luis in a different positive relationship. Right I mean what do you think accounts for the difference in respect versus... The personalities. Okay. He's a Finnish guy, Valtteri doesn't talk much, funny guy, strong guy, good personality, strong character, they fit.

2:11:15What do you think of Valtteri about us? He's outstanding for me, the performance he did put in, because everybody said in the beginning, we want to see if he's as quick as Nico is. I tell you he is. He's getting more and more competitive. Every race he gets more experience with the team because it takes a while to get used to all this. He's doing a perfect job for us. What can you tell us about the team order? In Budapest, we gave Bottas the position back, which he gave Luis beforehand. We promised him, or I didn't, but Toto did, that we're going to change back, and Luis lost three points because of that in the championship.

2:11:59And I'm thinking different, because I won one championship by half a point, and I lost another one by one point. So I know very carefully you have to watch the situation of these three points. At the end of the year you can lose them. So I think we have to see what Ferrari is doing in the future. If they continue to support Vettel that Kimi is always following him, I don't know what we have to do. We have to wait. It depends on race by race. How are we gonna win the drivers and the construct a championship? if Ferrari does continue to proceed in that fashion what do you think you have to do I think we have to apply team motors we have to but I think that Potters will understand really yeah because there's so many points behind Lewis that he if you have the choice who can win against Fettel it's only Lewis now because of the points difference in theory he can but the theory is wrong everybody progresses with points so I think it's the right moment we explain it to him that the chances of Lewis are much better than yours, I think he will accept that.

2:13:05How difficult do you think it will be for him to accept? It is not so difficult that anybody thinks because I've been in a similar situation in the past. When you have no chance to win the championship in an easy way, you have to give the full support to the other guy. The other guy has more points from the beginning. Why? Because he was quick and better. If he would have had more points, he would have been the other way around. This is, I think, easy to explain. One of the very few people you liked, a smaller number of people you respected and the only person you envied, the legend James Hunt.

2:13:44Explain that if you don't mind. Hunt I knew from Formula 3 days. We were going up the same development more or less trying to be a 4.1 driver. So we liked each other because we were doing it together. Then I got my first chance in Ferrari, which I blew him off in a way because he was suffering of getting a proper 4.1 car. Nevertheless, we stayed in a very good relationship. Our relationship only turned down a bit when I had my accident, Monza onwards, I came back and he was really competitive because he had a fantastic quick McLaren my Ferrari was already suffering from performance and he drove on a level outstanding and when this competition gets that bad then you don't talk to each other anymore because you want to win races so we only had a little downturn when he really beat me in my communication level.

2:14:52But when he won the championship by half a point in front of me, I said to him, I'm more happy that you are the world champion than any of the other guys. And that really shows how good our relationship has been. What did you envy about him? He was a fantastic personality. He was funny. He was a man which you never forget when you know him. James, I mean there are very few people which I say they are still alive, you know, even they are dead in many years. If you can say this about somebody, he has been outstanding because the people you forget, you forget. But the people who especially for my life and Hunt was a big part of that, I will never forget.

2:15:40He's still alive for me. What do you remember from sharing a London flat with him during your Formula 3 days? A lot of, how do you call it, politely intercourse. Not with me, I have to say.

2:15:59What made that time so fun for the two of you? In the 70s, the time was different. I don't know how old you are, but I guess you have not been in Woodstock, have you? 31. So you have not been in Woodstock. Born in 86. I don't want to sound funny, but in these days it was normal. Some people today don't understand what I'm saying, but in Woodstock times things were different. It was a different life of living. It was a lot of fun around. What was the day-to-day like for the two of you back then? It depends. We were different. He was driving one way and the other. So the day-to-day we didn't meet much, but at the end of the season we had some fun together but by small competitive we got this less it was so in the last four one years it was more difficult with him who got more girls he he absolutely he beat me by far the hunt was he didn't care I tell you he was whatever he could get he took he had fun and enjoyed himself but in these days we all had fun I have to say it doesn't depend of how many we don't count them but it was it was the typical racing drivers life where the danger was difficult so we knew we had to live extensively in the time we had available which anybody would do we were not different to other people and it was a good time I have to say.

2:17:24Tell about your birthday party in Vienna and then testing the next day in France. Birthday party in Vienna was funny because I was asked by a guy here I knew to do one I I invited James certainly to come along. He did come along. I went home at 11 because I knew next day I had to fly down to Borica and test. And James asked me if I can give him a lift. I said, yes, certainly I will do that. And I said, listen, you be at 7 on the airport because I have to leave. I can't be late for this test. Ferrari will fire me. So James said, yes, yes, yes, I'm coming. and 5 to 7 he turned up at the airport with the same lady which was dressed in all white I remember this very well like today and all her white clothes was a bit dirty all over the place I don't know what they have done he had his radio on his shoulder he always had this radio with him where he played music and turned up completely pissed on the airport said James you are a disaster get in the plane let me take off and off we go, down to Borey car, James was sleeping, I had to wake him up with a plane, we're here, we dragged him out and off he went to McLaren, I went to Ferrari, I went out in three laps, my engine blew up, thank God the engine blew up, now I have five hour rest for an engine change, I could sleep a bit, and then the practice went on.

2:18:50And suddenly there was big panic, a car crashed, practice was stopped, I saw this McLaren parked on the right side of the long straight and I said, the tires are on, the wheels are on, there are no marks, there's nothing more happened. And I got out of the car and James was sitting in his car sleeping. I said, are you nuts, you idiot? Oh, Nicky, I'm so tired, I can't drive anymore. So this was a typical James testing day after a long night in Vienna. The lunch you had with him much later on at King's Road, what do you remember from that? I remember very well when James retired, he put himself unfortunately in a very terrible personal situation.

2:19:35I think he was drinking too much. He lost all his money because his brother invested his money into Lloyd's company, which went all the way down. The share price went down. So James ended up with no money, completely broke. And I called him because my relationship The ship told me to do that. I said, I'm coming over to Hingen, let's meet. And he turned up in Kings Road in a cheap restaurant with a bicycle with no air in the tires. He looked completely finished, long hair, clothes dirty, and sat down. And I said to him, are you nuts or what? What do you mean? Look at yourself. Get up and look in the mirror.

2:20:23I know. James, you're going to kill yourself if you continue like this. I have no money. How much money do you need? I don't know, 300 euros, pounds. I'll give you 300 pounds. But do something. Don't drink. I give you the money, I support you all the way, but come back. You have to come back. I had to do this a second time, and then James was better. Then he was clean like you do not believe, worked for the last three years of his life for BBC, commenting the races, completely fit like you do not believe. And we all were happy that James was back with us. And then unfortunately he called his doctor in the middle of the night.

2:21:11I was told that his chest hurts, the doctor said don't worry, lie down. And the poor guy had a heart attack and got killed. so it was really a sad moment for me personally because I don't think it was necessary that if the doctor would have been there he might have saved him. What was your reaction when you heard he passed away? Terrible. I was shocked because of what the experience I had with him bring him back from being broke and finished to an absolute perfect life not drinking at all, not smoking, nothing fit like anybody else and then die, this was terrible. You got divorced many years ago, and after that you made the comment that you'll never marry again.

2:21:55What made you change your mind? So I got to know Birgit, who is my wife. I knew her for eight months, or we dated eight months, and had a kidney problem. And I asked my son, Lucas, if he would test to donate me a kidney. he came to Vienna, did the test and his kidney did not fit. The doctor said it is good to put in me. And then Birgit said I'm going to do the test. And then I said why I want to do the test? Because I would donate your kidney. I said you will never ever donate my kidney because why? I'm ill and know you now since eight months. Why? I will never do that. I do the test. She did the test and she did fit.

2:22:46And then she said, I want to donate a kidney. I said, no. And then she gave me for about three months always the same impression. I do it for you because I love you and this is the way it is. She never was frightened or asked questions. Is it dangerous for me? What can happen to me? Never. It was just a pure approach. I will do it. and then after a long time thinking about it then we went then when they pushed her away in the hospital to start the operation praying that please nothing should happen to her nothing, nothing an operation is always an operation and then then I got her kidney and now this kidney works 100 % right I have the same creatinine level like you have if you're fit and it is fantastic so after three years four years I married her but because not of the of the kidney donation because I knew that she was the right woman to marry and then we got twins Max and Mia so I was really lucky that all these things happen today.

2:24:08And with Malini, which I have a very good relation with her, Birgit and Malini get on very well in Ibiza. And how does that work? Because I understand the three of you will go out together. Yeah, but it is mainly to say, first of all, Birgit, yes. But Malini has always been, like I explained before, she always wants that the other people are happy. She doesn't give any restrictions to anybody because of her behalf. So there are very few people around the world who say, I want you to be happy, and I put myself happy in another position. And therefore there was no problem at all that she would get on with Birgit, and she did from the first day.

2:24:51And for Easter, for example, we have all the kids together in Marlene's house. Lucas has a kid, Matthias has two kids, so we're all together celebrating Easter in a fantastic way everybody put together. Why did you need the kidney? Because I had a kidney failure, not a failure. It goes down, certainly, and didn't work well. It could have been damaged out of the accident I had 76 in the beginning because I had a completely organ stop at my time. If the kidney does not fully recover, it could have been the cause. It's not fixed. But I needed the kidney transplant. And that was your second one, right?

2:25:30My brother did it before, but it only lasted for eight years. And this one now for 12 years. How strange was going to your brother and asking for a kidney? I didn't actually ask for him. He knew that I had a kidney problem, and he came to me and said I would do it. Because this is an important message, maybe, to understand. And to donate a kidney can save somebody else's life. And it is very simple today in modern medicine to do that. But as people don't think about it, you know, in Austria, you don't need by law a written. I think in America it's the same. You need a proof that if something happens to you, your organs can be taken.

2:26:22In Austria it's the other way around. if something happens they can be taken and I can only say to people right where you legally need to that yes you are available for organs if something happens to you because it can save and help any other body's lives and people really don't really get the message much more people donate now or when they have an accident they can take the kidneys but it needs to be to make the people aware if you understand the problem for you is no risk if you donate me the kidney if you are properly treated but it can save my life how close were you to your brother at the time that he not that close to have to say because my brother and myself lived different lives completely but nevertheless he thought about it and did the same thing as Birgit did.

2:27:19Did that make it weird at all? The fact that the two of you weren't close? No, not at all because he again said to me, yes, I'm going to do this. It took him more time, I would say, than Birgit, but he did exactly the same thing. And I tell you, I would do the same thing if I can to anybody, even to a stranger. So you mentioned you have two twins, Max and Mia, a boy and girl. You have older children as well. To what extent, looking back, would you like to have been around more for your older kids or around for them in the same way you are? This is a very theoretic question because it was not possible.

2:28:04because the times with Malena and Lucas and Matthias was my racing, was my job to make it simple and I had to be different to be able to fulfill my job like I explained in the beginning. Now I have more time, I have no risk at all and now I enjoy my little kids that they grow up with me or I grow up with them because it keeps me young, I have to say and it is fantastic what my life is today. but I do not regret the past because I had no choice in the past. It was different times and this is the way it was. With Lucas and Matthias, I have a fantastic relationship. So everything in the end worked out very well.

2:28:47What's it like for you now having kids later on in life? Fantastic. I mean, it is unbelievable because every day they have a new experience with them. You grow up the way they speak their language, the way they understand things. It is every day a new positive surprise. What do you like most about it? I like most about it that I really feel them strongly. I think it's the other way around, too. We have this typical father and mother relationship. Birgit freaks out of something they have done, not me. And then they look at me, and if I think if Birgit has done a little bit too much, then I always say...

2:29:32And the kids laugh again. So you're kind of the soft one. No, no, I'm 100 % the soft one. Because she's a tough cookie with them. And therefore we have this good relationship. I mean, the kids like me very much. Birgit says, if I pick them up from school, which I had to do yesterday, if I have time, I do it. And then she says, you have to take Max to the doctor. because Max two days ago said there's an earache. And I asked him, he said, does your earache? He says, no. So are you fit? Yes. So what the hell, you have to go to the doctor. So then I called Birgit and said, what the hell, you have to go to the doctor, the kid is fit.

2:30:18No, when you are in spa, I want to go to Venice with him. And for flying, I want to make sure that the ear is fit. You have to go to the doctor. So, OK, what the hell is the doctor? I said Mia come, we go to the doctor and we go to this first time I've been this is a lady doctor very nice and in the outside room where you have to wait my kids said hi is this the doctor where all this playground is. I said I have no idea, I've never been there you've been there with your mom a hundred times but not with me so then we come in this room, playground where they can swing forward, balls forward six kids in there crashing into each other because they're playing there so hard they stop you, you stop here the mother went in to see the doctor I had six kids around me trying to control them, not to hurt themselves even where I had the doctor then I saw the lady doctor, I said are you crazy these people can, he said I'm here anyway, but I don't need a doctor when they come to the doctor.

2:31:19Anyway, by the way, long story short, Max is fit, he can go. And then the kid said to me, now we go and eat ice cream. Sure we go and eat ice cream. I picked him up from school, now we have ice cream. So we come home, where have you been? Mia says, ice cream with daddy. you want ice cream. I told you there is no ice cream because too much sugar and forward and backwards. Biggie, hello. If you make me responsible, pick the kids up from school, which normally I don't do, I decide then what is good for us. So we go and eat ice cream. If you send me again, I do the same thing again. But this, I guess, is normal marriage discussion.

2:32:04We were talking about this a little bit at the start of the interview. You've obviously had fabulous success during your life and career. With that comes great wealth. How do you avoid your wealth dampening your kids' desire? The wealth, I mean. I tell you, I keep them completely underground. When they travel with me, this is my plane, which is a private plane. I tell them exactly what is the difference. When they go to Venice, they use a schedule plane. so they know both sides of it and they do understand. Kids are very easy to make sure they go in the right direction as long as you tell them.

2:32:49Why are we flying a private plane? Because we have one. But we will fly again or we will no fly if we have no plane. They accept all that if you give them the right message. How do you view money? For me it's easy to say. If I have money it's fine. If I don't have money I can adjust always to the money situation. I have no problem traveling tomorrow with scheduled planes, if this is the case, because I always had my feet on the ground. If I'm able to fly a private plane, I certainly prefer it. Easier, nicer, but I can do without it. I don't have the importance, I want a private plane. Sure, I want a private plane, if I can afford it.

2:33:32In this relationship, I'm always unaffected by all this so-called wealth, because I know if it's here, I use it. If it's not here, I can be as happy as before. What's an example of you loaning somebody money over the years, and how did that impact the relationship? I think loaning money to somebody impacts no relationship. It's dangerous even, I think. So because the first question is, why do you need money? so there can be some reasons why people need money and if I do understand them I give it to them but for me a loan is always bad either give it because you have it and you give it to them and that's it but the loan things I had a cousin once who was sick and he asked me for money I loaned it to him he said I'm going to give it back to you he never gave it back to me so I learned my lessons out of this but I give money if I really think they need the money and I can help them.

2:34:30And I have no problem with them. But not as alone. When it comes to investing, I understand from talking to, I guess, your money man, you like taking big risks. Why? Because I always took risks. I've never been, let's say, called normal. I'll tell you one thing. We are living today in a very streamlined world that everybody thinks if we need WhatsApp or Twitter or whatever, what is the President Trump using? Twitter. Twitter, right. This is a good example that if the President uses it, then everybody has to use it. and if I understand that these streams are happening I funny enough always think the opposite because even in my racing competition if I understood that one guy is doing one thing and he's not successful why should I follow him?

2:35:40So I have this learning out of my long experience even in business decisions or private decisions, if everybody goes one direction, I think immediately the other way. And I tell you, from decisions I've taken the other direction, I would say I was 90 % right. It takes a while for the people who all streamline in one direction, ooh, there's one guy who's doing it the other way. I'm quicker thinking the other way first than to follow what everybody thinks is right. because that gets me revved up up here, what is right and what is wrong. So whenever these developments in the world get, I first of all think the other way around.

2:36:25And as a lot of people are going in one direction, I'm much quicker going in the other one. Although you've given away or gotten rid of your awards and trophies over the years, what would you say is your most valuable possession? possession? possession means item

2:36:49trophies I won't give them away no I don't have them I tell you I have everything up here I think this is the difference I'm not living at all in the past if you would ask me what happened then and then and what did you do here and there I cannot I cannot hang on to things from the past like trophies because I got them once, they are ugly. This is the first reason I give them away. I don't like them. I think I remember maybe two or three trophies kept because they look nice. You can use them to put the flowers in or something else. But trophies itself, they are most of the time ugly. So therefore I don't like them.

2:37:33But my real advantage, I think, is that all what I've been through my life gave me a lot of experience in easy decisions, sorry, easy life parts, difficult life parts, plane crash, accident, so I have a lot of experience. So when future problems come up, and in the first approach, I think this is easy to handle. I nearly killed myself and came out of death and recovered. I have no idea. Let's say I break my leg six times now. I would not be bothered. I go to the doctor and say, fix my leg. It takes longer than my other accident because I know I've been through bad experience. So I would think I'm very good and have learned a lot through life.

2:38:24Therefore, I have a very stable condition and I can react today on more or less everything better than other people because I know where I've been through and what I've done in the past. While you aren't one for credit and accolades, how special was your encounter with Nelson Mandela and what he said to you? Nelson Mandela, I will never forget. He's a typical man like Ferrari, who I find is the most charismatic man. His story is unbelievable, unbelievable what happened to him and what happened. What he exactly said to me, I cannot recall now, but I know that it was an important moment for me to see somebody like him in what nice and calm way, even being through such a difficult life, he talks to people.

2:39:18He's a very charismatic personality. And I think this is the most important. You have to remember these things, not in trophies and stupid things, Just remember them and recall them all the time on day-to-day life to react accordingly. Thank you very much. Thank you. That'll do it for this edition of the In-Depth Podcast. You can check out video clips of my time with Lauda, including a tour of Vienna and an all-access pass to the Belgian Grand Prix at youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. You can also check out content on social, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and now TikTok, at Graham Bensinger.

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