Seven-Time NASCAR Champion Jimmie Johnson: Fear, Family, and the Drive to Keep Racing

28:16And we were both pretty sensitive to anything that happened on track. And then Mr. Hendricks sat us both down and had a conversation and kind of reeled it back in. Really? What did he say? I can't recall exactly, but he does a very good job of delivering his point in a few words. And in typical Mr. Hendrick fashion, laid it out there. And I honestly, once I saw the video, what happened, I knew how wrong I was. But there was a lot leading up to that moment. And he just opened the door for Jeff and I to kind of talk through it. And I think that conversation is very common amongst teammates. I mean, it's hard to not want to beat your teammate, especially when you're both fighting for wins week in and week out.

28:59You know, the tension that comes with that is pretty intense. In what ways are you a perfectionist? I would say in knowing when I get it right. Through my journey and moving through vehicles and series as quickly as I did, stats weren't something that I could hang my hat on. It was me leaving the track feeling like I did my best. And that's the thing I had to identify with at a young age and carried through Cup and ironically doing that all over again right now in IndyCar. Like what consumes your thoughts on a day in, day out basis? It's, you know, there's a lot going on in life now. So, you know, balance of work life, family life.

29:43but in that headspace of racing I had a swim coach teach me how to really visualize my my start my stroke my turn so I've adapted that to my my car racing stuff and depending on the upcoming race or the race that I just had as I'm building my notes or preparing for the next one I literally drive laps in my head sometimes in bed too right that's the best way to fall asleep for me just sit there and run laps in my head it's funny because i'll micromanage in my thought the lap and i'll make a mistake and i'll start over and so i keep working my way around whatever the track is and then before i know i'm asleep is there a specific track that you most commonly go to or a lot of times it's a track that i just left as i'm working on my notes to prepare for the upcoming race and then the upcoming race when i dive back into those notes when i'm able to drive in the simulator or even have a chance to drive the track it brings all that back and I just get into that visualization space.

30:39And does Shani know what you're doing? I'm sure I've told her about it but I don't know if she realizes how many nights I've fallen asleep to that. There's not some like look you get where she knows you're off in Never Never Land. You bring up a good point. Around race weekends even my friends know that there's fun Jimmy and there's race Jimmy and when I go into race Jimmy I'm definitely much more inside my head and less social. How do you beat yourself up? I think on mistakes that I've made, some are visible, some are not. You know, there are habits usually driven by fear in a race car that just get under my skin that, you know, I used the brake too much or I held onto the brake pedal too long or I didn't go back to the gas soon enough because fear was holding me back.

31:22And I'll start beating myself up on that. Like, man, let go. Like, you just got to send it. You know, as anybody gets older, responsibility increases. Yeah. Most often personal life becomes more consuming. How, if at all, do you think that impacts pursuit of excellence? There are older athletes now that are highly successful. And I've worked up this theory in my own mind that it's due to who's around them. first and foremost, their spouse and the support they have from their spouse. And Shani's support and understanding of what makes me me and chasing my dream. None of this would have happened at the level that it has or continue to take place if it wasn't for her support.

32:09I'm as excited today to go racing as I am. I was when I was a teenager. And I don't think that's that's very common. And it has so much to do with the people that are around you. But do you think it's possible to have sustained success long term and also have the kind of success that you want to have in personal life too? I think it's possible. I mean, is that ever a battle for somebody like you? It's all work in progress. And I think communication is key. But again, I pull it back to the most important person is your spouse and their buy-in and their support. And I wish I was a little bit better of an example of winning championships still right now today.

32:58But to win seven, you know, I've got into my 40s to win my seventh. We had children. I think that's a really good example of it. But currently it's Tom Brady. You know, you continue to hear these stories about he's the first one in the building, the last one out. He's working with second string guys. He's working with the kicking team. He is so embedded and great in that team. That's what it takes to continue to operate at a high level. I don't know him personally, so I don't know his family life, but it certainly appears that he's in a very good place and has that support at home, which allows him to spend the time that he needs.

33:31The seven championships that you won, what role do you think the fact that you had a lot of consistency among people that worked for the team played into the success that you guys had? For me, it is the foundation. I've only driven for a couple team owners. Sponsorship-wise, there's just a couple through my entire career. 17 years of marriage. I am the one that wants and needs a stable environment. So to drive for Rick Hendrick for all those years, to have Chad Knauss at the helm for all those years, that was the best environment for me to succeed. Why do you think the relationship with Chad worked?

34:08We were in a very similar space starting off very hungry. Because that was your opportunity for both of you. For both of us. You each felt that, right? He had been in CUP a year or two prior to me. So our starting points aren't necessarily the same. But he started off sweeping the floor at Hendrick, right? He started at Hendrick, tried to climb up through the ranks, got to a point in time where there wasn't a vertical move for him, left the company, and then was brought back to be my crew chief. So, you know, his hunger was, you know, our hunger together was unmatched by anyone else in the sport.

34:43And honestly, through the years, we changed the sport in so many ways due to our desire and work ethic. And also, we should unmatch not just at the time, but in history, right? Testing was such a part of our success. And that's going to the racetrack and spending a day or two there to learn the track, update the car, bring, you know, engineer new ideas for the car. And many drivers and teams want to do the bare minimum of testing. And at Hendrick, we had the resources to test all the time. And Chad and I literally would. It made our communication better. It made our team better. We certainly found and engineered more tricks to the car and made the cars faster.

35:23But, and that was our sauce. we would test and practice and try over and over and over and we both wanted it. How was the relationship unique? We quickly had so much in common that a friendship, more than a work relationship started, like a friendship started. And then with the amount of trust we developed within one another and the success we were having kind of built that trust, he became my, you know, my third sibling. Like we truly have that connection like brothers. I mean, I hear enough stories about him that I can understand he can be a reasonably difficult individual. That's fair. You know, later in my career, I had a harder time with the pressure that he was successful with putting on me in my early days.

36:12We all grow. And I think the mistake we both made at the end of our time together was maybe not evolving enough within our relationship to the new us. And when times got tough, Chad reverted back to the crew chief that he was when we first started. Which was what? Micromanaging, you know, explaining where I was making mistakes, what I needed to do, how I needed to work on it. And what are you thinking when he's doing that? I mean, don't you want to tell him to like F off? I did. And that was kind of the start of the decay over probably a five or eight year period of time. And he and I both so wish we could go back and correct that.

36:50Because now looking back on it, it was a defense mechanism for him and he was only doing it because he cared. And I just got tired of hearing it. And he's really good at hitting you with a laser verbally. And after a while I got tired of doing that so I started firing back. And then we got so caught up - What would you say? I'm sure there's some audio you can find of us just melting down. He would push hard enough, and then I would just start in the car while racing, instead of being focused on the job, I would start thinking about what the hell I was gonna say to him. Your dad was saying he was a spotter, and he was literally working right next to Chad, as Chad would be destroying you on the radio.

37:31And he's like, it was just so uncomfortable. people were like, how can you let them talk to you that way? But the trust we had for one another, I would say 80 % of it, it was just a brutal truth. And honestly, even though it hurt, even though it pissed me off at times, that brutal honesty is what made us get better. And just at the end, if we could have handled it in a different way with one another, we could have stayed together through the end of our careers and potentially got the A. So you think that was the mistake, Like not knowing when to get out and just saying we had success, time to move on earlier.

38:08Mr. Hendrick's amazing at the human dynamics and helping people. And he tried and he had to sit down with. Like the Mickey Mouse cookies or something? Yeah, the milk and cookie story to literally professional help in a man that I still spend time with talking to today that was a huge help to Chad and I over the years. But we just couldn't correct it, sadly enough, those last couple of years. And last question on that front. Was there a moment or an argument that took place where you just knew in your head at that point, this is done? Yeah. And ultimately, Mr. Hendrick made the call. He's like, you guys are just fighting too much.

38:49And I assume we've kind of embarrassed him. In NASCAR, everyone listens, including your sponsors. So the way we were behaving wasn't ideal. but it got although it's kind of entertaining for somebody who was called vanilla for so long or any haters you know they love watching the meltdown and listening to the meltdown but we were at the uh the charlotte track in may for the the coke 600 and chad's way of motivating and really kind of hit me hard with things it crossed the line got personal and when it got personal that's when i was like wow okay what did he say gosh it's hard to remember and I'm so bad at this stuff but questioning my my commitment to the team we were just returning from a winter of living in Aspen that's the first time we'd been to Colorado and stayed for a long stretch we just won the championship we come back start the 2017 season and that really really got under Chad's skin that I I wanted to be in Aspen and not in Charlotte and things started to get personal then and in him questioning where my heart was with the team and the time and effort I wanted to spend and be with the team was really kind of that starting fracture point how did you guys repair it we didn't sadly but you're you're reasonably close again now, right?

40:15Yes. I think working through Mr. Hendricks splitting us up, you know, we, even though it was tough, we were still very honest with each other through the breakup and through the next chapter for both of us. And, you know, that, that honesty and respect and bond that we have just kind of worked its way through. And now we're at a spot that is really amazing. I'm running in the IMSA series and some endurance races in the IMSA series. Mr. Hendrick's involved and Chad is involved as well. And we're working together again. So it's come full circle and it's really just been out of the respect for one another and the honesty that we've had.

40:53You mentioned a guy that helped you both in working through it. A therapist of some capacity, right? Yeah. Like how did he help?

41:09he's it was interesting because i i assumed you you go get professional help and you lay down on a couch and um you know the process is a certain way but for uh for you know what we went through um we spent very little time hashing out what happened and just assumed that we're going to put our best foot forward and this is how we do it so it was very little reflection and very little finger pointing of you said this no no you did that it was like it's a mess this is how we're going to get better and and it really helped us for a while and I would say um as far back as probably 2013 is when when we really had some professional help um and it got us to you know winning the championship in 2016 and then things kind of unraveled from there um but it was it was a big help.

41:59And a lot of, a lot of things learned in that moment has helped me just with life in general, my personal life. How so? I always felt like there was work, Jimmy and home, Jimmy. And I quickly realized that we are who we are. You know, there are different stressors on, on each side, but we all process, analyze, handle, react in the same way. It doesn't matter if it's personal or professional. And that's something that I thought, no, I'm just mad at work. I don't bring at home. Yeah, right. I don't overreact just at work on the radio with Chad. Yeah. You know, I'm overreacting here with my personal life as well.

42:34Are there tools that you learned or developed through the therapist that you found really helpful? Awareness, listening, and I'm sure I can still be better at that. I'm sure Shani would agree. That's just a male thing. Yeah. Hearing. And we all know as guys, you know, when you finally do listen, slow down and listen and let soak in there's you're like ah got it do you think she could tell a noticeable difference in you after you started going i i think so i mean she she lived through you know all of those emotions um and they were all extreme from extreme frustration to extreme elation and championships and um we've been joking since i haven't been on the cup scene um for for a year now but the journey that I would go through on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and she'd be in the bus waiting for me.

43:27I'd come back from a Friday practice. We're terrible, and Chad and I are fighting, and this is wrong, that's wrong. All of a sudden, Sunday afternoon, we're in Victory Lane holding up a trophy, and we figured it out. So just the emotional extremes that took place, she witnessed it all and has helped me navigate a ton of that. She gets far less credit than she ever deserves for really helping guide me through all of that stuff. She was the brunt end in dealing with those emotions from week to week, month to month, year to year. But she definitely would say that the professional help did have an effect.

44:05And then certainly professionally and personally and applying those things to my personal life. How did you find working out helped you mentally? It helped me deal with the stress. It was a great outlet to burn off frustration. I mean, still to still today. Yeah. Yeah. And then probably, I mean, one of the key parts of what makes you, you, right. Yeah. It's a great stress relief. It, um, and once I burn off that frustration, the mental clarity, and then just, I go back into my visualization skills that I learned and start thinking about a track, a car and the setup, whatever it might be. So I get my brain organized there if there are things going on you know in the workspace outside of the car personal life I just get organized so if I when I train the first part is burning through frustration then after that my brain starts getting organized really yeah and you know people kind of questioned whether it made sense to do a big bike race before a professional race that you had and you've made the point before that actually you found it helped you oh yeah If anyone's worked to run a marathon or a triathlon, any of these longer distance endurance races, you learn just how committed you have to be, how painful it is, the mental challenge that comes with it, preparation.

45:29Those four things are the same four challenges that you experience in your professional life. It doesn't matter if it's car racing. I think more did apply because it's a physical event in both elements. But the more committed I was on training and preparing for a triathlon or a marathon, the more organized I was professionally. It was wild how similar the two worlds were mentally once I got into it. How did you find you needed to tweak your workouts from NASCAR to IndyCar? IndyCar is much more upper body focused and a lot higher heart rate. For me, I have a low heart rate. And the longer the event, the more aerobic the event is, I'm just better at endurance events.

46:11When you shorten the distance and the heart rate goes up, that's against other competitors in my age group. That's never been my strength. So the IndyCar side has been fun to kind of address that and work on that and try to get uncomfortable. Like how have you done it? I mean, like what did you switch up? It's much more strength focused with a higher heart rate. For NASCAR, the races are four hours long. going on a four-hour bike ride and staying hydrated and having energy from nutrition. And then the mental commitment to sit on the bike for four hours was much like a cup race. But for IndyCar, 10K efforts, being on a rowing machine and doing 20-minute intervals on the rowing machine or a skier machine, the really high heart rate, shorter bursts of energy really is what IndyCar needs.

47:01How many marathons and triathlons have you done? One marathon. I'd say 10 half marathons and then 170.3 triathlon and then a bunch of sprints and an Olympic distance triathlons. And what's on your bucket list of kind of athletic endeavors to still do? New York Marathon is on my hit list. You've done the Boston. Done Boston. New York's on my list. Anytime soon? I thought I'd be doing that this year or next, but I don't know how I'm going to fit it in with my IndyCar and IMSA obligations. Pretty taxed as it is, and the training is a little more unique for IndyCar and away from the marathon, long-distance stuff.

47:47So it might be a few years out there. What else? I mean, there have to be. I've always wanted to do a full Ironman. And I haven't been in the pool in a few years, so that seems really far away to consciously go after that. But I loved a mountain bike. And with having a home in Colorado, there are a few big mountain bike races there, like the Lendl 100. And that's been high on my hit list, too. With Lance? Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's ridden it in a few years. Probably five or six different buddies that I mountain bike with on a regular basis all did it. And I'm on a text chain with all those guys and watching them get ready and the harassment and then the harassment following the events have been pretty cool.

48:30And I look forward to doing that one. How long before you think you end up doing it? It's in August, end of August. I probably need to look at the calendar. I feel like with the amount of time I spend in Colorado in the summer, I could at least, I might not ride the time I want to ride, but I could at least finish it. A couple of crashes I wanted to bring up, and you've covered these plenty of times before, but the first one being the Alltel car crash where the brakes give out. What do you remember from that? Cars, you crash often, and some are going to be bad, but that's really the first time when I just thought it was over and kind of went limp in the car.

49:08And thankfully, I did because preparing for the impact and lowering my head as I did and going limp was the best thing for me. this crash took place before soft walls were mandatory and before we had any of the mandatory restraint systems in the car to prevent a basal skull fracture, which is the injury that killed five drivers and the fifth being Dale Earnhardt Sr. So I was fortunate that I did hit a soft wall just out of luck and the track put some foam barriers in that corner. And on my way flying into those foam barriers, I thought the foam was concrete and that's what led to me going limp in the car and thankfully it was a series of soft walls and I was able to walk away from that crash.

49:51What do you remember thinking it's it's happening? It was and then I knew the the racetrack went to the right and I tried to make the turn and I was into the grass and lost control of the car at that point and I had no brakes when I first when I went to slow the car down the brake pedal went to the floor had brake failure and 150 miles an hour with no brakes. The Baja 1000. Yes. and you lose control of your truck. Baja was a wild experience because I literally woke up crashing. Sounds crazy, but - What do you mean? I fell asleep. It's probably three or four in the morning. Been in this rough terrain, bouncing around, easy to stay awake.

50:32Finally got onto a smooth road, a nice long straightaway, and I just got too comfortable and nodded off. And I woke up just before I went off the road, and there was a sharp 90 degree turn. and tried to hit the brakes, went straight off the road. And as I was going off the road, there was a huge boulder. And I hit this boulder and the vehicle went straight up into the air. And I recall seeing the headlights just shooting into the darkness. And I had no idea what I was gonna land on. And I was just coming out of a mountain range, how far I was gonna fall. And thankfully it was just a steep embankment and tumbled off into the darkness out there.

51:10What do you remember thinking about out there? Because you were out there for a while. It was probably a full day before we had the truck onto a trailer to take it away. What's wild is this is a 95, so communications weren't like they are today. And then the team itself has vehicles that leapfrogged the race truck going down the race course. Just in case you're not in radio communication, they can keep up with you. My chase truck, as it's called, got into a fender bender in a small little Mexican town, and my chase crew was arrested and put in jail. So when I crashed, the vehicle that was supposed to find me, those guys are busy emptying their pockets and giving away everything they could to get out of jail.

51:57I mean, I don't know if more was made of this than that actually existed, but it caused you to reflect on kind of what you wanted to do? No, that was a big moment. I mean, I think I was 19 at the time. Earlier that year, I had a huge crash. There was another mistake made at literally mile one of a 400-mile race where I destroyed the truck. The off-road stadium truck racing that I'd been competing in, really fast. But every time I was in position to win, I flipped the truck and crashed again and made a mistake. So all of this led up to the Baja 1000, that big crash. and I knew going into that race that my job was in question the next year and here I am again with a totaled race truck almost killed my co-writer the crash all the all the impact was on his side and I had you know give it a day to sit there and think about the aggression I had and I was going to be out of a job so literally after that moment we used a term in dirt racing about flipping and getting upside down.

53:00I still had years of off-road racing following that, and I never got upside down again. And I went from being a guy that would always be known to run the fastest lap, but never see a checkered flag, to a guy that then was seeing plenty of checkered flags, and I started winning championships. So what changed? Just a long conversation with myself about stop it. Like, identify with 100%. And I was comfortable on the other side of 100%. And dialing in at 100 % was everything. How well do you remember the embrace with your dad after that when you guys met back up? It was huge. And he told me before the race, you know, he had a dream.

53:40Be careful. I'm like, you're crazy. And as I was sitting there in the darkness, vehicles would come by and I would stop them. Hey, we've crashed. We're fine. My dad's in the next pit. And everybody knew my dad. Please tell him I'm OK. And it was 60 miles away. I forgot to tell my dad. So as I don't arrive, my dad knew this mountain range, knew that I've been in a crash. No one is reporting anything. Communication is so minimal. And he had to sit there with all of that for a long, long time. So when I saw him, there was a big embrace. Do you remember what he said? No, I remember tears and I don't see tears very often with him.

54:16And from you too, right? Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, I was hanging on. And yeah, I had tears as well, but I'll never forget his face walking up to him. and just seeing the relief, you know? And what's wild is I see him and I'm running to him. It's like, once again, dad's right. Like, you know, parents are always right. You never want to admit it when you're a teenager, but he was right. Tell about Charlie Meatballs. His name? Well, actually, I guess it's Animal Anna production company, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, gosh. Yeah, you're right. Production company. I was going more towards the production. I've always had an interest in photography and also have always loved documentaries.

54:59Wait, I should ask, though. It's your pet, right? Yes. So when we decided to start the production company and we were looking for a name, we recently just added a pet to our household and the kid's named Charlie Meatball. And we sat in on a meeting kicking off the production company and the icon of Charlie's face pops up in Charlie Meatball Productions. And as I dug in more and looked around at production company names, they're kind of off the wall and interesting and thought, man, it works, let's do it. What made you decide you wanted to go down that path? I've been very fortunate to be surrounded with very smart people and people that are willing to take some risk and get out there and try to develop companies.

55:43And along the path, the folks at Oxagon knew my interests and saw an opportunity to start a production company. And we've been working hard. COVID has not been easy on green lighting, documentaries, really anything, as you probably so well know with your career path. So we have a few projects that we've been working on, including one of my own with all the content collection we've done through my career. I have years and years of video and still images. We have a book that's coming out that really documents probably 15 years of images that we've been able to take. I've had professional photographers come to tracks and just collect stuff.

56:30All of that's just been kind of a passion and burning in the background. And when Oxagon knew about all this stuff, that's when the idea of a production company came together to formalize it. What else do you have interest in doing with it? I love docus and really finding interesting stories to tell. Again, I thought I would have a bit more free time right now. Yeah, I was going to say, is this something that you can spend any decent amount of time with right now? I have some good partners. We've purchased some life rights to a few interesting stories. And more than anything, we're waiting for budgets for 22 to kind of come along and see if there are opportunities with any of the platforms.

57:07We have one that's close, and we're negotiating hard on right now. What obviously without giving details like like what makes you say you're close? We bought life rights to a very interesting man named Randy Lanier. He he was a race car driver for a long period of time and pretty talented. But his cars were always unsponsored. And so there is a great question as to how can you go racing without sponsors? and then he was arrested for trafficking marijuana and bringing it into Florida. So there's a very interesting story to be told with his journey from Virginia to Florida, getting caught up in the drug trafficking scene, then going racing and winning some of the most marquee events, being an IndyCar driver, then, of course, being arrested, his journey through incarceration, and then now where he is in life.

58:03So we've been negotiating with the studio now for a while, and I think we're at the final stages of it. What are your business interests? Business interest has been pretty plain, honestly. I felt like I've taken so much risk in the car and have been able to earn at a pretty incredible rate that it was more about preservation and making smart moves. So, and again, through contacts, people I've met along the way, we have a lot of commercial real estate. So it's nothing flashy. We own a lot of dirt and buildings and then try to find tenants to come in and do long-term leases. And what part of the world?

58:43There's more here in the South, but I have stuff in Michigan, some in Florida, some in Texas. But I'd say primarily on the East Coast and more of the Southeast. What about long-term? That's kind of the long-term. the play honestly is amassing, building equity into the properties and the buildings and having the right tenants that are in there. So I think it's been a great move to preserve and then also give me the long-term runway. How about best and worst financial decision you ever made? Right now, I would say some of the art we've purchased has been our best investments. And with Shani's interest, and I've had an interest in collecting, but we've bought some art.

59:36We have a few that if you just look at the multiple that it's increased by, you just scratch your head. It's been pretty awesome. And over what period of time? It depends on the artist's journey and their path and where they are in their career. Some as early as four years, others probably 10 or 15 years. And then honestly, the worst decisions I've made has been with boats. Oh, wait, what's this? I actually heard like your first big purchase after you started making money was one for the Colorado River. Pickle Fork boat with a big engine on the back, a little lightweight boat that traps air under it.

1:00:12That's why it's called a pickle fork. And it gets up and dances on the water and goes way too fast. That one wasn't overly expensive. When I moved to North Carolina, I was driving in the Xfinity Series. The first purchase, again, that I made was a boat, but a bigger and faster one. This one now has three engines on the back. And the second time I drove it, I about crashed it. I was running along at 120 and hit a wake. And when I hit the wake, the boat went airborne, and all the air trapped under the boat almost blew it over. And I literally took it back to the dock, put it on the trailer, called the guy back and said, I can't have this thing about killed myself.

1:00:51And then I found out how quickly a boat depreciates when you take it off the lot. So I took a bath on that one. How about best financial advice you ever got? I've had access to meet so many people and to really lean in on those relationships and contacts. And then that's led me to the commercial real estate side, which I think has worked really well for us over the years. Before you made it big, how did you find smart ways to save money? Smart ways to save money. I guess there's the question mark of can I expense this or not? Am I really working? Does this work today or not? Is this work today or not?

1:01:34But I just grew up in a very frugal environment figuring out how to make things work. And my dad, thankfully, instilled the notion in me that when you buy something, you go buy it. And you don't finance it. If you can't buy it and pay for it, you shouldn't buy it. And I recall trying to get my first home loan. And I went in and I had one thing in mind. And the amount of money that I could put down, which was almost three quarters of the purchase of the home, they're like, hold up. I mean, you can have so much more of a home. And for a split second, I thought, really? I can have a big house on the lake?

1:02:14And I'm like, no, no, hold on, hold on. Don't do that. So within that and really understanding the value of owning something, I think has been probably the best thing I was taught. Retirement. Describe the feeling when you knew it was over in NASCAR. The grind, more than anything, had kind of changed me. And I wasn't holding up to the core values that I kind of held for myself. And I was just grumpy for the last, you know, last couple of years. And, you know, the breakup with Chad and moving on was was probably the peak of it. There was some excitement and starting over and working through developing the team and bringing it back to its form.

1:02:57The last two years were there was some new excitement that came on. The last year that I was in the car, Cliff Daniels came on board and he's somebody that had a lot of history with. and I could see the team we were building. But even with all of that excitement and commitment from the individuals on the team that I have so much respect for and care for, making the decision and saying it out loud that I was going to retire or stop NASCAR took this weight off my shoulders that I didn't know was really there. And what was the feeling you first had where you started to know personally before you even articulated it to anybody?

1:03:34I thought it and said it plenty of times to my wife in moments of frustration, and she just let it pass. And then... When was the first? Gosh, I would say probably 17. Okay. Maybe even 15 or 16. You know, there's just some moments of frustration of like, what am I doing this for? Like, I don't have to do this. You know, I don't need to be this pissed off at times, right? Like, I don't need to do it. And then we'd win a race. And you're like, oh, that was just, you know, an overreaction. I'm good. Then you stop winning races and you don't have that moment to kind of reset. Changes things. And it became more serious.

1:04:20And I was saying it more regularly. Was it hard to know that that would kind of deprive you of the ability to keep going after eight? It was never about the number of championships for me. I couldn't believe that I won one, five, six, seven. I just couldn't believe it. My goal was to win a race. So I cleared that hurdle in year one. That put pressure on me that was part of the grind. And then I realized subconsciously what was weighing on me. What was it about that that made you realize it? There's a window of time where we could essentially win at will. and we always knew we were going to make the playoffs and we always knew we were going to be a championship threat.

1:05:03And then when that starts to slip and you can't reapply and make up that difference, the team, you know, there was a point where it was like, well, we'll just work hard and we'll figure it out. And it continued to work over and over. And when that started to fade, you know, that's kind of an eye-opening moment. So we were talking about economics earlier, and you look at NASCAR since 2015. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Dale Jr., Carl Edwards, Danica, Matt Kenseth, you go on, you know, all retired during that period. How much do you think economics played into that? NASCAR's been going through quite a bit of change since Tony, even prior to Tony's retirement.

1:05:48The playoffs have changed a couple of times. The rules continue to change. And a lot of that is to help the bottom line. And ultimately, the bottom line has moved so much because the way fans consume our sport has changed a lot in the last 15 years or more. I would say that through earnings and potential for a team, it's been down probably 50%. 50? Yeah. I would say that from a driver contract standpoint, from 2015 to where it is now, is probably half. Even for the top drivers? For the top drivers, yeah. And what starts that whole process is the tune-in numbers. Tune-in numbers drive the sponsorship numbers.

1:06:29That obviously drives the purse and then certainly the sponsorship on a given car that a driver shares in. And then for the top drivers, when all of a sudden you have the realization to be a 50 % pay cut, you've already had success and you're thinking about the grind in the 38 weeks, it gets to the point where it's like, why? Yeah, I mean, it might weigh in on some. I was very aware of my investments and what they earn in a year. And even at 50%, there's no way those investments were going to come close to that. So I always knew it was my greatest source of income. But I was fortunate to not need to stick around for pay.

1:07:13and really once I recognized the grind and how it kind of snuffed out that flame in me, you know, it was time to move on. And I really thought that when I was done with NASCAR, I was just going to dabble in racing. I had no idea what was about to all start. And on the financial front, what impact does that have on kind of the non-top drivers? The great fortune being a top driver and a 50 % reduction, you know, it's still a big number. and is the sport has been evolving and actually kind of on a downturn. And now I believe it is ticking up. But on that downturn, the guys on the bottom side, I've heard rumors where these drivers can't afford permanent or temporary insurance, which is just kind of standard issue in a sport with so much risk.

1:08:01And you hear drivers, I can't afford it. I'm not going to do it. If you were running the sport and you could make, you know, any changes you wanted, what would you do? I've always firmly felt that there's just too much racing in NASCAR. That's my opinion. And I've had that conversation with executives at NASCAR and, you know, there's varying opinions. But I just feel like, you know, from February to November is a long stretch. and I personally have close friends that had an experience where the tracking at home, close to home, had one event. When it went to two races at that track, they stopped going.

1:08:45Reducing the schedule down to 25, 28 races, I think, would be the ideal way to go about it. But just the kind of pandemic year, how strange was it on the sports front, not having the family around? It was wild. I mean, it was my final year, you know, a year that we planned to celebrate as a family. We told the school that, hey, the kids aren't going to be around much because this is dad's last year. But at the track, there was the bubble and the family couldn't, my family couldn't travel. And this celebration of my career, you know, I feel in some ways we didn't get to have our family experience that we wanted to in that final year.

1:09:24Obviously, the height of social issues during the pandemic, you were at the forefront of that in NASCAR. If you don't mind, just from what you recall from when you found out about the alleged noose to before that race started, take me through what you remember. Yeah, the discovery, I think, happened in the afternoon, and then it hit the press during the evening. Next day, we're racing. I had already gone to bed and wasn't aware of what had happened. So I wake up in the morning, I'm traveling to Talladega for the race. I understand what's all going on. And I just reached out to Bubba and said, hey, man, if you don't mind, I want to come stand with you during the National Anthem.

1:10:12I just thought that would be a friend thing to do to show my support to Bubba. And then that word got out. And before I knew it, I had drivers and team managers all saying, you know, hey, we want to do that as well. Within a few hours, it evolved into what it did. And we all decided to push his car from where it was on the starting grid down to the head of the field and show our support as an industry for Bubba. You know, just a crazy set of circumstances. And we were at the track the day before, and with an airplane flying above, pulling a Confederate flag, there were parades going on and protests outside the Talladega racetrack as well.

1:10:57It was just a very heated environment. And then the noose showing up in the garage stall, you know, just kind of tipped the scales at that point. And regardless, the FBI found out the noose wasn't there for that reason or not. How powerful was that moment on the track that day to be in it and seeing the sport coming together like that? So powerful. And people walking that I wasn't sure where they stood. I wasn't sure what their feelings were. You work next to so many people in the sport, you just don't know. And you see these people in passing. But, I mean, everybody came out and pushed that car, got behind the car.

1:11:40I mean, it was incredible to see. It's such a powerful moment. When I found out that the noose wasn't there for the reasons we thought it was, I had such relief, and it was wild how the reaction was for others. But what do you mean? You know, the controversy that followed and people that thought the sport was trying to make something of it or remember just all the charged energy and atmosphere around around that period of time and um you know i wish nascar handled things a little differently with their press release i think a few words would have changed if a legend noose was in there would have been different but the backlash that followed was so different than the relief that i personally had thinking thank god you know thank god there wasn't a noose in bubba's uh garage stall right and also So good that the year caused some positive change in NASCAR.

1:12:35Correct. The positive asymptomatic COVID test. How frustrating was that? And I ask that, too. You know, obviously, 20 people have gone through far more, you know, significant stuff during the pandemic than not being able to race. But, I mean, for you and kind of your year and your streak. Yeah. Still today, I'm not sure if I ever had it. I had a false positive. And what I regret the most is not going back and taking a second test. Why didn't you? It was so new. And we were trying to be so cautious. And my wife was positive as well. And that's how it started to me. That I just assumed that I had had it and didn't think that a chance of a false positive could exist.

1:13:26trying to do the right thing. You know, we instantly go into quarantine mode. This is Friday afternoon. I get this news. Monday morning, I'm negative. Tuesday morning, I'm negative. I mean, I just, I think I had a false positive. Describe what that night before the race was like, the race that you would have otherwise been competing in. I was still under the assumption that I was positive. Granted, I didn't have any symptoms. So I'm thinking, wow, I'm so lucky to be asymptomatic. Yeah. Now, Monday morning when I got the call back and heard that it was negative, then I hit the ceiling and was furious.

1:14:01Oh, really? Oh, absolutely. I mean, thinking I might have COVID-19 and the concern, pandemic and all of that, it wasn't easy to watch the race, but it was what it was. It was a reality I had to accept. I want to jump ahead to IndyCar, but preceding that, the impact that the Formula One ride in Bahrain had on you. Being in an open-wheel car, high downforce car, just blew my mind when I had a chance to drive the McLaren F1 car in Bahrain. And I started asking around if there was a way to get to Formula One. That was something that really interests you. Yeah, I knew that Formula One was owned by a U.S.-based company.

1:14:45I know the need for an American-based driver in Formula One. And once I realized what it took to receive the license, that you have to kind of come up through the European racing series to earn enough points to earn the license to drive a Formula One car, I was like, it's not going to work. But I looked around, and that really got me thinking about driving open-wheel cars. And even if you didn't have to come up through the European racing circuit to get the license, what would you be doing to yourself? You would have just been stopping NASCAR because of the grind, and then you're going to possibly go to Formula One.

1:15:20I mean, it's I'm sure it's a grind. It's such a premier form of racing, but it's only like 20 races. So, you know, in my eyes, it's almost half. I mean, global travel schedules. I mean, and that's one of the thing that fuels fuels my wife and I is travel. And so to think about working globally and traveling all these amazing places seemed seem pretty cool. Was she on board with the idea at the time? Absolutely. Yeah, if we could pull it off. Yeah, global racing, absolutely. So you started looking into that, realized it wasn't going to happen, and then your head turns towards IndyCar. It does, and at the time, the CEO of McLaren, Zach Brown, was open to me pursuing the path of Formula One, and then they also have an IndyCar.

1:16:09And in the beginning, that was really my first opportunity to drive an IndyCar. was the McLaren IndyCar. And then my situation for the Brickyard 400 coincided with the timing of the test session. The pandemic hits, McLaren's not able to take me to the track and test the car. I've known Chip Ganassi for a long time and he's like, hey man, just come give it a try. See what you think. So then that ended up being my first time driving the IndyCar. And again, just the experience of a single seater, open wheel car, high downforce. That's when I found my energy to pursue this. Because up until that point, I really thought that full-time racing or such premier high-level racing was behind me.

1:16:55A likelihood it continues beyond the two years. I'm all about it. I'm actively trying to figure out how to end up in 23 and beyond, just having so much fun doing it. What's like involved with making that happen? Having a seat available with the team. So wherever the team's plans are heading, and then clearly having the corporate support to do so. So my commitment's there, my family's buy-in and commitment's there. It's really just the team and sponsor pieces. Have you now committed in your head to running the ovals? I'm at a really good place with it. And my family is following where I am. And I've thankfully been very honest with my wife through it all.

1:17:41And to have the two test sessions, I'm in a really good place with it. But now is the hard part, and that's team and sponsors getting all that stuff worked out. I was convinced ovals weren't for me to start this process and sign a two-year deal. So now it's kind of complicated mid-contract to sort it all out and see what the team's capable of doing. Because it'd be nice to be on there next season. Yes. Yeah, I would love to be in the Indy 500 next season. And then if I'm running the 500, there's an argument. I would have a better 500 if I was to run the race before, which is Texas. And then if you run those two tracks, those are the fastest tracks.

1:18:20I may as well run the other ones. So there's still a lot to be sorted out, but I'm as close as I've ever been to running an oval, and especially the Indy 500. Thank you very much. Thanks, buddy. Hope you enjoyed the conversation with Jimmy Johnson. for more racing content, a tour of Johnson's Trophy Studded Charlotte Warehouse, and a ride along with Mario Andretti, head over to youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. As always, we really appreciate your feedback, and let us know who else you'd like to see or hear on the next show. Thanks again for listening.