Tennis Pioneer Billie Jean King: Equal Rights, Wimbledon, and the Battle of the Sexes

24:55Yeah, well, that was Lynn Abbott's got me six Mars. I love their candy over there. It's great. But we got a 45-pound gift voucher. For winning Wimbledon. For winning Wimbledon. And what I would do with it is give it to Fred Perry. we used to wear Fred Perry clothes which means that it was a sign you'd made it you get your two Fred Perry and your four shirts and you'll see them in the old photos you know with my cat eye and I've got a skirt and of course Rosie and I we got our little you know we got our Fred Perry I would go to Fred and he would give me 45 pounds for it because he knew we were just barely getting by to get home and so if I didn't have the people of Long Beach like the Long Beach tennis patrons the Long Beach Century Club, individuals.

25:42Harold Guyver believed in me at a very young age. He was a world-class bridge player and loved tennis. He was a lefty. If I didn't have those people, I never would have played Wimbledon. In fact, Harold Guyver wanted me to go at 16, and I said, no, I haven't earned it. I cannot go yet. He says, well, you just lost to Maria Bueno, the best in the world, at 7 '5", and the third. Of course you've earned it. I said, no, I haven't earned it. I didn't want that responsibility unless I really could produce. So the next year when I went with seven teams when Kara and I won the doubles. So I felt like, okay, I started.

26:15And Clyde Walker was holding on. He had cancer. And he kept holding on to see if he had a Wimbledon champion. So when we won the doubles, he passed away the very next morning. So his wife said he was hanging on. He just had to know if we won or not. What was that like for you? It was terrible because I love Clyde. And I always, I think, God, if he could be with me every day of all my career and see what's happened? Are you kidding? So I talk to him every day. What role did he play in your life? He just was great. He just said, play because you love it. You know, and I would lose. I won one match the first summer.

26:53And I remember us walking outside the Los Angeles Tennis Club. He goes, Billy, you're a better athlete. You just don't have their experience. Just hang in. You'll be beating them in two more years or another year. Don't worry. Just keep working hard. you will kill them you're such a better athlete than they are I kept saying okay I trusted him which you know if you trust your coach that's huge and he never got to go see me play except maybe twice a year because he's a public park instructor and teacher so he had to go to the park every day he couldn't bop up to a tournament to see me play and he used to always tell me you have to think for yourself on the court anyway it's probably good I'm not there so he says I We want you to know you're by yourself out there.

27:35You've got to learn. Be a student of the game. And he taught me all the right things. And he said, only play because you love it. If you get to where you don't like it, quit. I had all these great instructions from my parents. My brother was very supportive. He used to count my trophies every weekend. He's so cute. You know, he's five years younger. We get along great. And he'd go, oh, sis, you're up to, you know, 200. I go, ah. You know, don't tell me, don't tell me. I don't want to know. That's yesterday. and anyway so Randy and I have been really supportive so I got all this positive reinforcement from Reverend Bob Richards my teachers I mean my third grade teacher Mrs.

28:10Hunter wrote home and said keep her in sports she loves pressure she's really well coordinated you know she's always a captain of the team you know so I got all this these moments they're turn everything all those are little turning points if you look back over your life what do you think Clyde would say if he had the opportunity to see all the success he had during your career. He would be so happy, though. And I just think about him every time I'd win anything. Clack! Explain the purpose behind breaking away from the tennis establishment and how that ultimately positively impacted women's tennis.

28:41It probably wouldn't have happened without the men contract pros. I don't know if people realize, but, like, Labor missed five years. Pancho Gonzalez turned pro, contract pro at 19. So they didn't allow those players, and they were the best players in the world, the men. We didn't have those opportunities. The men had the opportunities. But they helped because eventually Herman David at the All England Club, which is where Wimbledon's played, was getting upset. He realized that they didn't have all the best players playing at Wimbledon. It kind of woke them up because every time somebody would win Wimbledon, they turned pro.

29:19They weren't coming back. In my heart and mind, of course, I wanted the men and women together. I always wanted us to be one association, be one union. The men rejected us. And they're all my friends that I went dancing with, had dinner with, you know, all the, and that was hard to take, because they didn't want to be with us, because they want the money for themselves, and all the opportunities, which I don't think it makes a better world. I'm pretty idealistic about that. I still am. But that's the way it went. So we went to Plan B, the women, and that's when nine of us got together in 1970 with Gladys Hellman and signed a$1 contract with Gladys Hellman.

29:53And she went out and got Virginia Slims. And of course, I hate smoking. And then she got Virginia Slims. And I go, you got to be kidding. And so she says, well, do you want a tour or not? And I have a contract with her. This is bigger than myself. I shut up. And they ended up being the most wonderful people I have ever worked with. And how did that ultimately progress the women's game? They had the money. They would send at least six or seven people every week. You got to remember, you got to pretend there's no infrastructure. Okay, we signed this$1 contract. We want to have a tour next year, right?

30:25Right. I mean, you guys are some of the best in the world in breakaway to go out on your own. How can we go play? There's no tournaments. We had to go get people to promote a tournament, which is very high risk. It's extremely high risk. You can lose everything. Nobody had any idea what was going to happen. I mean, you're literally breaking away to start your own league. My husband, Larry King, and I, not that Larry King, Larry King, and I, the one who made me a feminist,

30:54he and I approached British Motors in San Francisco to be a sponsor because you have a presenting sponsor you have the titles Virginia Slip but then you got to get local sponsorship and so that was my first entree into understanding sales PR all the different facets that go into happening an event so do you hear that? sounds like breakfast is ready because Quaker's coming in hot with morning nutrition, 100 % whole grain oats, and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next. Quaker, official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26.

31:41I, oh, let's go!

31:49But Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+.

32:12They said no. Jerry Diamond didn't want to do it, the publicist. But Shel Cavalli said, yes, we're going to do it. So the six of us, Jerry said he'd do it, though. There were six of us that owned that tournament, and then we owned another one in L.A. And then we got somebody, Nancy Jeff in Dallas. We got people in all these cities so we could have at least a series, a Virginia Slim series it was called in the beginning because we didn't have it. And it was amazing thinking back that this all actually unfolded and actually happened. And so I was starting to find out and doing the business side of it.

32:48And so basically since 68, I've been a small businesswoman because Larry and I put on an exhibition at the Oakland Coliseum. And so from reading the couple books you've written and the various profile stories that have been done on you over the years, you've been very open about your sexuality. Lately, yes. Not in the beginning. Right. Not in the beginning. Because I didn't know. I was paralyzed. Well, so you were outed, but explain why you made the decision to go public in a press conference. Well, I think. Because everybody around you wasn't encouraging you. No. In fact, my lawyer and my publicist was like yelling at me not to say anything and say it's not true.

33:26And I said, but it is true. Well, what she said, it wasn't all true, but the affair was true. Yeah. And I said, Marilyn Barnett. And I said, no, I'm going to tell the truth. So I fought with them for 48 hours straight, crying, telling them I had to do this. I have to tell the truth. And the media had always been fair to me. I mean, I've given them everything I had. I mean, I was always good to them. And I thought, you know, I just have to tell the truth because I can't live with it. And I'm not going to deny it. I just don't believe in that. And anything, if it's true, then be woman enough or man enough to stand up and tell your truth.

34:00But my mother always, one of her important things was to thine own self be true, even though they're very homophobic. But they came there. I got to hand it to them. They didn't have a clue what was going on. They showed up. They didn't have a clue what was going on. No, of course not. And you had tried to talk to them before that, right? I kind of had tried, but, you know, a lot of it was my hang-ups. I mean, let's face it, I was homophobic. I still catch myself once in a while getting a little lurch in my gut and going, ah, it still raises, ah. Of course, because you grow up in this environment.

34:31You know, this is, we're in the 21st century. It's very different. I mean, every five years it gets better. in the United States, but not in Russia. I mean, they've okayed hate now. I mean, I notice it. I think it's the civil rights issue of the 21st century. That and gender are the two big ones. Science is probably thrown in there, environment, that type of thing. This is the 21st century. This is what we've got to figure out. But it's an amazing... It's still not safe. It doesn't feel safe all the time. I want to take you back to that press conference. Okay, in 81, yes. What do you recall from it?

35:12I recall everyone being very tense. Everybody couldn't figure out, you know, you could hear a pin drop when I said, I did have an affair with Marlon, the whole meeting, because, you know, I knew all these people. It's not like I didn't have history with most of them. And Pat Kingsley, who was head of Pickwick at that time, had gotten their whole office behind this, because they had to get it done quickly. And he was your publicist. And Pat did not want me to come out, and I told her I have to, and then my lawyer, Dennis Wasser, did not want me to come out. In fact, they had denied the reports automatically without asking me.

35:44I was furious with them. I said, why would you do that? Well, you always do that. I go, I don't care what you always do. Do not do that. They were fantastic, though. Once we decided we're going to go for it, Pat was unbelievable. She came through big time. She got her whole office behind this because they really had to work fast, and I flew across the country and Larry and I did the conference and Wasser was very clear. It had to be very tight in a certain way. I said, well, I have to tell the truth, so tell me how I can say my truth. So, you know, but I told the truth and I said I made a mistake, but I didn't make, some people misconstrue what I meant.

36:20I meant, I believe in monogamy, nothing to do with the gay thing. I think some people thought I said it was a mistake because I was with a woman, and that's not what I meant at all. Right. I meant monogamy. And if I knew what I know now, I would have made that clear. But I was a little under a lot of stress as well at that moment. That was very stressful. I've had some stressful moments. So has everybody in their life. Right. And it must have seemingly been difficult having to tell your husband about what happened. But you mentioned you were raised in a homophobic household. I would say that's one of our, maybe our little dysfunctions in our family.

36:55Every family is dysfunctional. What was it like, though, having that conversation with your parents for the first time? We still didn't get into it that much. They were like, I don't want to know, basically. And I'm like, I thought, I can't do it right now. I'll do it when I can do this. I didn't really put the pedal to the metal until I was 51 and went to an eating disorder place here in Renfrew in Philadelphia. And I was there for six weeks. There was two of us who were binge eaters is what I am. I had an eating disorder. And that really, what came out of that is the sexuality aspect, because I was feeling my pain in my stomach.

37:36What I would do is eat too much and kept pushing my emotions down in my stomach. That's a way we do that. A lot of people do that. And I'm totally classic that, but I don't purge, so I gain weight. And so I felt that. I have the same therapist from Renfrew today that I had, and I call her once a week. And she's never a big believer on the phone, but my lifestyle is horrible for meeting her every week in Philly. So she's been actually very good because she's very strict about the boundaries and she likes it in person. So I still have it. So I was 51 when I got comfortable in my own skin. Yeah. And so I was with a lot of anorexics and 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds who competed on.

38:22What was that like for you? it changed my whole life. It changed me so I could be comfortable in my own skin. And what did you learn there that made you? I learned about why I felt the way I felt. I learned where my pain was in my body. Because everyone, if I asked you where's your pain, I don't know, where do you feel pain? Well, my back right now from this chair. No, in general. I'm not sure. I know, people aren't sure. And I wasn't either. I had to think about it and feel about it. You know, you have to feel about it, not just think about it. And I said, it's my stomach. And I thought, whoa.

38:52She says, well, a lot of times it's when we eat, we push. It's the same as drinking too much when you feel pain. It's all the addictions that we have is really to block out pain. So when you see someone who's an alcoholic, you know they're in a lot of pain. Something's bothering them. So same with eating disorders, same with all these things. And eating disorders are a distortion. So you have to really, and you just learn facts. And you have every hour they have you busy. There's movement therapy, art therapy, group therapy, you have individual therapy, you have couple therapy, you have family therapy.

39:29I mean, you're talking about intense feeling and learning. And once you get, once I got clear, I was able to start living freely. But it took me until I was 21 to feel comfortable in my own skin. Is it true when you came out almost overnight you lost all your endorsements? I lost everything. And how does that happen? They thought I was a slut, they thought I was a terrible person. I wish I'd saved the letters because they were horrible. And these are letters from sponsors? Oh yeah, sponsors. What do you remember? You're a horrible person, you're a slut, we're dropping everything, I can't believe your character's horrible.

40:11And we can do that because it's in the contracts, you're out of here. and I probably had one sponsor that would have stayed in, but they offered me so little I made a big mistake. I should have said yes, but I didn't. But, you know, I was under such duress at the time. I was just, I wasn't thinking straight, that's for sure. I mean, it was hard. I was just trying to deal. How supportive were fellow players? Some were great. Some weren't so great. You found out who your true friends were. You really found out who your friends were. Most of the players were really good. I mean, Rosie Casals, Chris Everett, Martina Novotis, everybody was fantastic.

40:51Chris was really good. Didn't matter if we were straight or gay or anything. First of all, we don't know. I don't know everybody's sexual. Everybody thinks we know everybody's sexual. I don't know. I don't go around, oh, are you gay? Are you straight? You know, we don't do that. But we always got along really well. That generation, the first and second generation, we were very close. I was always very close to Chris, Martina, and then Rosie was my generation, but we mentored them like crazy. I feel a little bad now because I used to pound on Chris to be the president of the WTA, and I know she didn't really want to do that, but she did it.

41:24See, she sifted up. So I think we're really lucky that our group got along, and I think because of that, sometimes how you start is how you finish. No one really cares on the tour. Everyone kind of just supports each other, and sexuality has nothing to do with it. It's more about your personality. What are your thoughts on the state of American tennis today? We're not doing well. We're not growing the game anymore like we need to. The USTA, David Haggerty, said at the annual meeting that we need to, we have an aging, we're kind of aging, and we need to get the young ones to play. The reason I want kids to play, first of all, Well, the life I've had through tennis, if you make it to a pro, is one of the greatest opportunities.

42:12First of all, we're global. Like soccer is global. We get to meet people. We get our education. We get to travel. We have more opportunities in tennis than most other sports provide. I mean, I'll listen to my brother. He never got out of the United States. Right. I've been all over the world. I'm going to go to Singapore in the fall. he didn't have those opportunities and I don't think parents out there understand they get their kids in softball they get their kids in baseball they don't have the opportunities that tennis players get so I would think long hard also if you're a girl we make the most money now I know I think financial security when you're older is really important because you're not a burden on society you can get there's so many things you can do and also if you have children and take better care of them.

43:04So it's an amazing, I am so lucky Susan Williams asked me to play tennis. I thank her every day of my life. And she, you know, she gets a box seat here at the Philadelphia Freedoms right over there and comes to the matches. So she lives in Philly now, has two boys, married a great guy, a grandchild. And I just wish people understood. Also, it's a lifetime sport. And the health of this nation is not in good shape. We're all overweight. We have a lot of challenges. Tennis is something you can play for a long, long time. You get slower. Who doesn't? But it keeps you moving. If you look at the players, the tennis players, the recreational players that play tennis a lot, not one of them has a stomach.

43:49I mean, they're like flat stomachs. They're in great shape, and they're happy. How do you fix American tennis, though? Well, I think, well, I think my own world team tennis is part of that. We're only in seven cities. We need to be more cities. If I can get a child's backyard so they can afford to come to a match, now we're talking because I couldn't afford. My parents, for instance, we could have never gone to the U.S. Open. That's a cross country. But I could go to an L.A. tournament when I was growing up. That's what I had. I got to see the best players in the world right after the U.S. Nationals, which is considered the U.S.

44:23Open. I think you have to see it to be it. I got to see Althea Gibson, and I thought, that's how good I have to be. In fact, I probably have to be better than that, because every generation I knew by then got better. To me, I know every generation's gonna get better. And so it's not that way for today's players? Well, I don't, that's why if they can come and watch these professionals at Milan World Team Tennis, also we're in the community all year long, even though we have a short season, we're doing tournaments, We're doing clinics. We're working with the USTA, with the Middle States. I told them to stay out of the politics, grow the game.

44:58That's our philosophy in team tennis. Stay out of the politics, help each other grow the game. Unfortunately, there's politics which get in the way, but we're putting money into Hunting Park, for instance, in Philly, because we know it'll help improve the community. We want to make a difference in the community as well. Not just our three, four weeks we play. That's when we're showcasing, and the kids come out and get inspired. I want kids watching the Philadelphia Freedoms, for instance, or the Washington Castles, or the Austin Aces, or the Springfield Lazors. When a child in Springfield, Missouri, they've never had this kind of pro tennis there.

45:40They come out and watch the best players in the world. Those children can say, I want to play for my hometown team. They may take up tennis and have it for the rest of their lives. They may get a tennis scholarship. We need players in the pipeline who are going to be stars. If we didn't have Serena right now and Venus and some of the women, we don't have anything. And the men, our men aren't, you know, they're really good, but we don't have any great players right now. When people say what's wrong with tennis in the United States, they really are saying what's wrong with U.S. tennis. If I go to Spain where they have Nadal and all these great players, men players particularly, they think everything's fine.

46:16What impact do you think the Williams sisters have had on the sport? Fantastic. They reminded people of color and others that they can be a role model for all of us. They've transcended tennis. They're articulate. Venus has stepped up and been a leader in getting equal prize money of this generation. Serena is probably the greatest athlete we've ever seen since Martina Navratilova. And you said she could be the greatest ever if she played more. Well, she's got to finish. She hasn't finished her career. But there's no question Serena is the greatest. Martina, I've always said, is the greatest singles, doubles, and mix player.

46:58Without any question, she was amazing. She won nine singles at Wimbledon. She's an amazing athlete. Chris Everett was amazing. Chris Everett was so much better as an athlete than people gave her credit. They knew she was strong emotionally and mentally, but she's also had great balance, great anticipation, great hand eye. They didn't appreciate that part of Chris, but I appreciate it because I'm an athlete. An athlete knows. Two comments you've made before about today's players that I'm curious to get your thoughts on in terms of if it's still true. One, players today have almost no sense of history.

47:30Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition.

48:00Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

48:31This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom-scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. I would say the women have a sense of history of the original nine because they have to when they join the WTA, the Women's Tense Association, which is like a union.

49:10They give them not exams, but they give them history, and they have to fill out things, and they learn. Then we have this power hour every U.S. Open, and I get the top, and then we have other players come in, like Tracy Austin would come in, Leslie Allen, Katrina Adams. We have all these different players from the tour, from the old days that come in. It's quite an amazing hour and a half with the top maybe. They bring in like 15 to 20 who they think is going to be the best, or anybody can come. I get to know the younger players coming up, and we try to give them a sense of history. Because I keep trying to explain to younger people, the more you know about history, the more you know about yourself.

49:50And I keep saying, you guys, you're going to shape the future. Like your generation right now, Graham's going to shape the future. It's like a relay race. Each generation passes the baton to the next one. and I keep telling, I said, you guys, how do you want the sport to look five years from now, ten years from now? They go, they look at me like, oh my gosh, I never even thought of it. I go, well, you're going to shape the future. You're going to be voting. You're the ones who are going to shape it. And what are you going to do with your world when you go back to your village, your town, your country?

50:19You can make such an impact on your country. Look what Djokovic has done for Serbia. You know, it's been unbelievable what he's done. Not only has he He's trying to give them money. He's giving them hope. He's trying to keep people together, make them work together. I mean, Ivanovic is from there. They've got, you know, two or three or four people, boys and girls, that are from that Serbia. You know, 10 million people, when they were kids, there were bombs going off two miles away, and they're in the bottom of a swimming pool. You don't think they're hungry? That's what I try to tell American kids.

50:52Get hungry. Have fire in the belly. We've got to find—I tell you who does really great are usually first-generation Americans. Americans. Sampras, Chang, Agassi, Capriati, all these kids were first generation Americans. You know, one was Greek, one's from Iran, the other's from Italy. These kids were unbelievable. I want to talk to you a little bit about tanking. Tanking? Tanking. Tanking, that's not a good subject. Intentionally losing. That's a horrible feeling. How prevalent do you think it is in the sport today? I don't think it's very prevalent because there's always points, money. There's always total incentives.

51:29Most athletes in any sport, if they really love it, don't like it. How often did you do it back in the day? I did it once or twice, and I never forgive myself because that's not who I am. You said in your book once you actually tanked a Grand Slam final. It's horrible. It's horrible. Don't do it. I was in a bad way that year. I know exactly what year. I'm not going to say against who because I never want to take something away from somebody, you know, because they earned it and I didn't. What was the situation there? Vietnam was driving me crazy. I'd asked Larry for a divorce. He didn't want to give it to me.

52:03I was just a mess. You know, I just wasn't. I probably shouldn't have played that year. But I did. And I like I always feel obligated. I don't know. I just like to. I come from the old school where you you sign up and you play. You know, just athletes today quit so much easier. You know, if they're injured or in, they're doing the right thing because it's tough today. It's tougher physically than it used to be. But we played so much more. I mean, the year I made$100 ,000, over$100 ,000, 1971, I had to play 30 weeks. The players today would no more play 30 weeks than Man on the Moon. But it's harder today.

52:41There's more depth. We're actually, it's global. Sports are just a microcosm. of society, okay? So you take sports. It's just like our education. We have to compete with the rest of the world now. We didn't have to when I was growing up. We do now, and so, especially with technology and the world smaller, Americans have to step up. We've got to be able to compete. If America doesn't want to step up, we're going to just keep losing ground. But we've got to step up. Look at our infrastructure. We've got to get that right. I go to other countries. Never, that I used to feel that their countries look cleaner, better than our country.

53:15Now I go to countries, their country's got a better infrastructure, it's cleaner, and it gets me crazy. It gets me crazy. Another thing, you come back to New York at the airport, you've got to put in a credit card for$5 to get a cart. No other country does that. They welcome you. If you're going through customs, you get a free cart. Because, first of all, you have to have their money. We charge. As soon as they lay land, we're charging. I hate that. That doesn't feel welcoming to people. I want to welcome people who come here to our country because it's the greatest country. So we got to do great things.

53:55But be hospitable. You're going to charge them five bucks for a little cart to get out to this curb. They don't know what they're doing yet. They're lost. You know, it's scary when you come to a new country. Battle of the Sexes. When you took on Bobby Riggs, obviously it captivated the nation. What a lot of people don't know, though, or fail to remember, is that he actually played another female tennis player prior to you in Margaret Court and beat her. Explain how, when I guess she originally decided to play Riggs, you had a conversation with her. I know exactly what it was. It was in the elevator at the Virginia Slums of Detroit.

54:38and she announced to me that they're playing that they're going to play this match and I go Margaret do you know what you've done I said this isn't a tennis match but it is a tennis match and she goes I'm getting 35 ,000 I said that's fantastic I'm glad for you but first of all I don't think she knew that everybody that he had been asking me for years and he went to Chris Everett he went to others and she's the one that said yes which listen 35 ,000 dollars in 1973 was a lot of money. We're only in our third year of women's professional tournaments, you know, tennis. That's of having the tour and everything.

55:16Tennis became professional in 1968, so we're only into five years. Everything's in a very tenuous position, very. Men and the women. And he kept following me and saying, let's play, we'll make lots of money. He was one of my heroes, too, so I knew who he was. and I was very clear on what he'd accomplished. And I just kept saying no, but when he played Margaret, I tried to explain to her what it meant about social change. Right. But you've got to understand this elevator discussion. We're going down to get a car to go back to the hotel. And we weren't in the same car as when we went back, so I had to talk pretty fast.

55:53I said, whatever you do, please win. You have to win. You have to win. Because all I could see was the tour going bye-bye after all this work. Right. And, you know, just people saying, why should we even care about the women? And I was just seeing all these things that could happen. I was just mortified. I was petrified. And then she loses. She lost badly, though. Your reaction. Oh, I was so upset. And I said, okay, I have to play him. I just immediately said I was in Japan or Honolulu, wherever I found out. And I said, I'm going to have to play him now. I knew everything was on the line. And Title IX had just been passed the year before, June 23, 1972.

56:31and that was a huge piece of legislation. Everyone thinks it was for women, but it was really, it's for both genders. It says no sex discrimination. That means for either boys or girls, but we were so far behind. There were gender quotas in college and universities. For instance, if you were a woman and wanted to go to Harvard Medical School, 5 % of the class was women. So we're always going to get the, we're never going to have a chance. No athletic scholarships for women. When I went to college, I worked two jobs at Cal State LA. I thought I was living large, but 30 miles away, Stan Smith, who was number one eventually, had a full scholarship to SC.

57:12Arthur Ashe, who's of color, got to go to UCLA on a full scholarship. I did not get to because I am a girl. So that's why the gender is so important for the 21st century. I mean, we're still making 77 cents on the dollar. But anyway, to get back to the Bobby Riggs thing. She loses. She lost badly. And then you know immediately that you have to. No, that was it. As soon as I heard that she lost, I go, I'm going to have to play him now. That's exactly what I said. I'm going to have to play him now. Because you just didn't want that to. Oh, I knew that I had to turn people's thoughts around about us.

57:45That they had to think that we can do things. That we can actually walk and chew gum at the same time. And I wanted to make sure the tour continued. And I knew we were going to get humongous exposure. I knew it was going to just touch the hearts and minds. I knew people were going to go crazy. They did. I mean, I knew they were going to get crazy, and they did. They were making bets. You're too young, but they were making bets. It was like a Super Bowl. It was worse. You apparently secluded yourself for a while leading up to the match because I guess you wanted to make yourself comfortable with just beating a man.

58:16But what do you recall from that actual match? Not a lot because I was in the zone. What do you remember? I remember very clearly the day before when he and I met that he wanted three out of five set I mean I remember us I said you want three out of five sets you're much older than I am but he said no I want three out of five I said okay and I go I don't know when we decided that actually see I'm not clear on the timing I was so nervous when I when we first announced it but what happens with me with everything is I get really nervous and I get calmer and calmer and calmer and calmer as I get closer.

58:54Now, I don't remember this, but two people said to me, Rosie said she came in 20 minutes before the match in the locker room because she had to announce that she wanted to know where I was at, you know, mentally and emotionally, and I told her I was going to win. She told me that years later. Well, you actually called your brother the night before the match and told him to bet everything. Exactly, but I didn't find this out until just a little bit ago. Randy told me, sis, you called me the night before and you told me to bet the house on you. I said, I did? I said, I don't remember all that. He says, sure.

59:28And he says, I put the notice up on the locker room door and every guy bet me. And he said, you know what? I got a whole big plate of chicken wings and I watched that match and just started thinking about counting that money. He says, that was great. What were your emotions going into the arena? Calm. I had to say calm. Everything. I had to be absolutely in the zone, one ball at a time. In the beginning, I was going to play my game. I was going to serve volley. I was going to be real aggressive. But what I decided I was going to hit the ball, decided I was going to hit the ball slowly as I could, as softly as I could, and then I was going to run him at least five points.

1:00:03Whether I won or lost a point didn't matter. I was going to run him into the ground. And I'd already made that decision when I got to the umpire's chair, so I walked out to the baseline. We started hitting, warm up, and I'd made my decision, and I stuck to it. After you end up winning the match, Sports Illustrated's Frank DeFord said, and this is in the couple of years that followed, you'll likely go down as the most significant athlete of the century, more significant than Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, even Jackie Robinson. And another article said your closest cultural kin are not athletes, but people like Martin Luther King Jr., Hugh Hefner, and the Beatles, people associated with a movement that affects great change because of the impact that match had on the women's movement.

1:00:49But how did women react to you after that match? Well, actually, men and women have reacted fantastically well. The women come up to me. What it did for them is it gave them courage and self-confidence to ask for what they want and need, for instance, let's say a raise. In fact, I came to Philadelphia two days after that match. I walked into the Philadelphia Bulletin, and everybody stood up and clapped. And men and women, they were good, they were fair. And the women ran over to me, though the women did, and says, Billy, Billy, for 10 years we wanted to ask for a raise. We never had the guts to do it.

1:01:17We asked for it. I said, more importantly, did you get the raise? And they said, yes, we should have asked years ago. I said, good. So I think it gave them self-confidence and courage, and they stood taller. Okay, women, it gave more self-esteem. For the men, I get men coming up to me in their late 40s, 50s, 60s, and they were young when they saw this. and they start getting tears in their eyes because they go, that match really affected me as a young boy. They go, I have a daughter now, and I want my sons and my daughters to have equal opportunity. And when they say that to me, I am so happy.

1:01:53When people forget getting back to the women, 1973, and I was shocked to learn this, women couldn't even get credit cards without the signature of a man. Yeah, we had to co-sign with someone. So that victory, how do you think it impacted how women viewed themselves? I think it changed men and women's thoughts. Because even President Obama was 12 years old when he watched the match, and now he has two daughters. He said, that match changed my life. He says, I know I raised my daughters a little bit differently, a little bit give them more. I just know I think differently because of that. And that's what guys have.

1:02:31So if I don't affect both genders, I'm not happy. Because everybody goes, well, look at all the bets they had against each other. I said, no, here's what it did, though. It brought everybody together. Rosie says if you lost, that she believes it would have set women back 20 years. I totally agree. Really? Oh. I mean, that much? Oh, see, you're so young, you can't get the flavor of what was going on. There were marriages that happened because of that match. There was 100 million people in the world. That was a lot in those days. You've got to remember, we only had four channels in 1970. We didn't even have cable TV.

1:03:03There was a lot of focus. There wasn't all, you know, nowadays there's so much going on in the stimuli that comes in. Four channels. We had the three top ones and we had PBS. That's it. No cable, nothing else. We were just going to touch-tone telephones. How concerned were you about its impact on Title IX had you lost? Very. In fact, I was more worried about that. Because I wanted the hearts and minds to start. You can have legislation, but if people don't believe it in their hearts and minds, they'll get around it. And they're still trying to get around it, okay? Girls high school today, right today, it's exactly where the boys were in 1971 and 72, okay?

1:03:46People think we've cut up. We're not cut up. We're not even close. We're 75. I told you, 77 cents on the dollar. When I played Bobby Riggs, we're at 59 cents on the dollar. Women of color even make less than that, okay? I think women of color are 59 cents right now. That was 1973 for white women. So it's just, we're not even close, but it just shifted. I wanted the hearts and minds of people to match up with the legislation that I don't want a boy or a girl to be discriminated against because of their gender ever, ever, ever. And we still are, and I don't like it. I don't like it when anyone is discounted, any human being is discounted for whatever, whether they're of color.

1:04:27I don't want a boy discounted anymore. I don't want a girl discounted. I don't want somebody that has challenges, physical challenges, whatever. I don't want them discounted ever. You don't do that. Just think if you were discounted. If every person would think about, if I'm discounted, how would I feel? And you don't like it. So don't do it to others. Treat them the way you want to be treated. This is really not brain surgery. This is so simple if people would just stop and take a beat and say, how would I want to be treated? The golden rule is my parents were huge on that. Always think about how would you feel if you treated someone like that?

1:05:06So if I screw up because I have a hot temper and say to them, I better go apologize. But I better not do it again either. Because, you know, some people keep doing it over and over and say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, no, no. You can do it once. You can't keep doing it. Pace Checkout is offered by your banks and credit unions. So when you shop online at participating merchants, your cards appear in one place, ready to use and kept up to date. And the best part, your actual card number isn't shared when you check out. Because boundaries are healthy, like no work emails after six. One small step for boundaries, one big leap for checkout.

1:05:41Pays, it checks out. Activation required. See Pays.com to learn more. Terms and conditions apply. Are all batteries the same? That's like asking if all soccer players are the same. Take Messi, the most decorated player ever. Is there any other player who has achieved that? No, just him. Now take Duracell. Is there any other battery with power boost ingredients inside? No, just Duracell. Remember, goats only trust goats because they're built different. And Messi only trusts Duracell. World Team Tennis, co-founded in 1974. You said it's your greatest contribution to the sport. People don't realize it yet.

1:06:30What makes you say that? Well, first of all, in 1962 when Larry and I met, we were sitting in the library. And, of course, we were talking. We shouldn't have been, but we were. I said, I always want to make tennis a big sport. And he says, it can't be a big sport. I said, why? He said because the challenge is going to be that 50 % of the players lose first round, 75 % have lost by the second round. So very few players are ever getting known. He said the top three men and women will control everything. He's correct, by the way, to this day. He's correct. So he said, well, I want it to be a team sport.

1:07:04I said, I want it to be a team sport. I love team. I don't like individual that well. I'm good at it. In fact, I'm great at it. But it doesn't make me get all excited like I get excited with mixed doubles or doubles or a team. And I grew up in team sports. So we started talking through the years. And I said, I would love men and women being on the same team. Because that's why I want the world to look. I want us to champion each other, be good to each other, the kind of way my brother and I are to each other. And I really believe in that's what we have to do. And that's why you said it represents your philosophy.

1:07:38It totally represents, because if you think about it, we have a set of everything in tennis. We have a set of men's and women's singles, a set of men's and women's doubles, and a set of mixed. So you have equal gender representation throughout the night. When a child comes to watch a match, he or she is watching boys and girls, men and women, cooperating in this common objective, just like men do in team sports and women do in women's sports. But we're doing it together. So a child, the socialization process that happens for them, they don't know if this is happening. They're learning because it's fun, but learning that way is the most fun and also it sticks with you better.

1:08:15So a child sees the men and women and what they see is sometimes the males in the leadership position or the female and other times we're in supportive situations. And as we go through life, as we go through life, daily life, sometimes that's the way we should live. Sometimes we step up and lead and other times we back up and we support. And that's how you're going to have a successful life. that's really how you're going to have, there's three things that I've found that people have inner and outer success. Relationships are everything with yourself and others. Keep learning and keep learning how to learn.

1:08:50Like I'm 70, so technology is obviously a place that I go to ask the eight-year-old to help me. And then be a problem solver. Be a problem solver. And those three things, sports teach you those things. Sports teach you how to solve problems. You mentioned President Obama and the impact the Battle of the Sexes had on his daughter and bringing them up. You were honored in the past few years by him with the Medal of Freedom. What a great day. What do you recall from that? Well, I never expected it. I would appreciate it because I know Arthur Ashe had gotten one. And then I realized no woman athlete had gotten one, which was not good.

1:09:32So it's good news. It's nice to be the first, but then it makes me sad in that why weren't someone like Althea or other women that I knew in other sports as well hadn't gotten one? But it was such an honor that day because Sandra Day O 'Connor, one of my sheroes, was there. And I say shero for girls, he rose for boys. All these people were there that I admire, and I couldn't believe I was sitting side by side with them like, oh, my God. it's such a weird it was just I my whole life flashed in front of me thinking yeah because you think about okay I think about my parents my brothers Susan Clyde you know Mr.

1:10:12Brennan all these different people that helped me in my lifetime without them I wouldn't have made it so at Long Beach the public system it's going boom boom boom my my brain's going like boom boom boom like that as I'm as a reading I'm thinking about the past and all these people that made a difference in my life that I wouldn't be sitting here. It really represented all those people and me, is how I looked at it. So it was kind of a fascinating experience to go through that as he's, you know, they're reading off things and saying, you know, and I'm thinking, wow, you know, and then I just, so I just kept thinking about all the people that got me here.

1:10:46I'm not sitting there because I did it. It's because everybody helped get me there. Yeah, I had to go do certain things, but it was, it's really a team effort. Everything's a team effort when you think about it. That's why I like team. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot, Graham. It's great meeting you. Nice meeting you. Good luck with everything. You're still young. What's your dream? To continue doing this. Really? I know. You're a big shot already. You're going to be bigger. Oh, please. Our superstar. Yeah, maybe so. You will be. You are. I can tell. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Billie Jean King.

1:11:18If you want to see her attempting to improve my subpar tennis game, head to youtube.com slash Graham Bensinger. If you get a chance, give us a rating and review. Thanks again for listening. Uncovered windows can make your home feel up to 20 degrees hotter. Stay cool and save up to 50 % off custom window treatments during the 4th of July mega sale at Blinds.com. From outdoor shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy. Get free samples, expert design help, and professional measure and install services. Or DIY with confidence and support every step of the way. Shop up to 50 % off site-wide, plus huge savings on doorbusters, right now during the 4th of July mega sale at Blinds.com.