Title: Arnold Palmer: Golf Legend, Presidential Friend, and Global Icon

0:00Arnold Palmer, one of the most beloved golfers to ever play. On this week's In-Depth Podcast, we look back on the life of the late Hall of Famer who died in September 2016. We'll relive the journey that made Palmer a legendary competitor on the course. How would you describe the emotion of winning your first Masters? It was probably the biggest thrill of my life. And one of the most popular athletes of all time. I got to the door. There standing in a leather flight jacket was the president. His personality and approach changed the perception of the sport in the 1960s, the decade he brought home six major titles.

0:44But Palmer credits all his success to one person. Because of everything he taught you? Absolutely. We sat down with Palmer in August 2015 in his hometown of Latrobe, Pennsylvania, at the same course where his father worked and lived and taught a young Arnold to love the game.

1:05So I actually wanted to start off by talking politics with you in terms of presidents you've spent time with over the years. Tell, if you don't mind, about the first letter you received from Dwight Eisenhower, then president. Well, he was, he invited me to play golf with him at Augusta. And of course, that was quite a thrill. And I accepted very readily. How did he invite you? Well, he said, would you like to play a round of golf at Augusta? And I responded with, absolutely, whenever you say. and he said very soon thereafter and I went to Augusta and we played. What was that like? It was great of course I had been around presidents before but not quite like Ike and with all the Secret Service men and everybody there it was it was quite a thrill and and he is so great a man that he made you feel pretty proud just to be with him and talk to him and that was fun you wrote in your autobiography that your relationship with him quote eclipsed any relationship I'd ever had with an older man besides my father how so well he was just a great guy to know and to talk to and he made you feel great he made me feel very proud that I knew him and that I was able to talk to him the way I did and of course the only guy that I really ever talked quite like I talked to the president was my father what sorts of discussions would the two of you had oh Oh, it ranged from everything to you name it, from golf to personal relationships to how I felt about the world.

3:25If you're referring to Ike, mostly golf business. And he wanted to know as much as you could tell him about the golf game. And I did. I told him things that I really probably never told anybody else. What did he want to know? Oh, he wanted to know everything I thought when I was playing, how I approached the game, how I approached people that were associated with the game, and things that most people wouldn't even think about asking. What do you recall from your 37th birthday surprise? Well, that was very special. I was going to Laurel Valley that day to play a round of golf with some of the members.

4:27and I was on my way out the door and my wife was sort of holding me up and I couldn't figure out why she was holding me up and I said, Winnie, I've got to go. I've got a golf game this afternoon. Well, she says, don't rush. Just wait a minute. And she was delaying me for a purpose and the purpose was that she knew what I didn't know and that was that President Eisenhower was flying in on my airplane to greet me for my birthday and spend the day with me at Laurel and around the house and just doing things that men do. And finally I just said I got to go and about that time there was a knock on the door and I said I'll get it on the way out and when I got to the door it was a screen door and they're standing in a leather flight jacket was the president and he was he looked great and he his first remark was you suppose you could put an old man up for the weekend and of course that thrilled me to death and And I said, naturally, come on in.

5:52And he came in, and then we started talking about what we were going to do. What do you remember from speaking to Congress on what would have been his 100th birthday? Well, I was pretty nervous about it, and I was thrilled also. So, and what I did was just talk about Ike and my association with him and the things that I remember that he said and did that were so just absolutely fantastic things about his life and not too much personal stuff, but more what he was doing, how he conducted his life and everything that he said was I just hung on like I couldn't hear enough and I felt great about it too.

6:57And so I talked about all the things that we talked about whether it was eating food or playing golf or the clubs we use to play golf and so on for a long time. President Richard Nixon once invited you and Bob Hope to his San Clemente home where he had his team of senior advisors gathered, advisor Henry Kissinger, vice president Gerald Ford, other national security folks. What was discussed there? Well, it was sort of a summit meeting, you might call it, with those people. And it was concerning the war that was going on and how to conclude it as quickly as possible with the least loss that we could suffer.

7:57And that was what we discussed. My recommendation was some of the low-altitude bombings and things like that. And we talked about everything in the war, how to save lives, how to get the war over with and come home. How surprised at the time were you to be invited to participate in that? Well, I was too, but they knew that I was a pilot and I enjoyed fighter airplanes and fighter aircraft. And I did fly a lot. So that was part of the reason, I assume. President Gerald Ford, on his outgoing day in office, what did he do? I'm not sure. Didn't he meet you for a round of golf? Oh, the last day he was in office.

9:03The last day he was in office, right? The day that he became just a U.S. citizen from president was the first day of the golf tournament. He was my partner. And he was a little late. He showed up late, and we went on and played from there. And I know you've played golf with President George H.W. Bush on many occasions. You spent time with Presidents Clinton and even Obama before. How about your most memorable state dinner? Most memorable state dinner? Oh, my, I'm not sure I can remember them all. There were numerous heads of state that I went to the dinners at the White House at the request of the president because his guest had requested that I be there.

10:09And so I was thrilled with that. And I went and took my wife, and she was thrilled, and it was a great experience. You worked with the late Mark McCormick for many years, the legendary agent who kind of, in a sense, pioneered the industry. and first, obviously, the two of you working together and then his creation of the global sports and entertainment management firm IMG. What do you think made the relationship the two of you had so successful? Well, I can only guess on part of that, but one thing, when we made our deal, I just said to Mark, Mark wanted to do a contract, and I said you don't need to do a contract.

11:08We'll just shake hands on what we agree on and if there's ever a difference, we'll talk it out and he agreed to that so we shook hands on the deal and it lasted until he passed. During a time when athletes just did not have agents, that was something completely new. what made you decide to take him on as your agent? Well, I knew him when he was at William & Mary. Went to school there, and he played on the golf team, and I played on the Wake Forest golf team. And we became friends from a distance, and we talked occasionally. And that started the relationship. and then, of course, the fact that we were both out of school now and into our lives of business, and we're now going to be doing something that is meaningful to both of us.

12:16So we became friends and business friends, and it worked very well. He stuck with the deal that we made, and when he started to branch out or what he thought was branching out, he had to come and see me to make sure that I would approve of what he was doing. And in the instance of Jack Nicklaus, I agreed it was okay if he represented Jack and Gary player and as I recall I think Doug Sanders was one of the guys that he was helping a little bit and so on. How hard was that for you to all of the sudden feel like you had to share your agent with other people? Well it was something that was my personal thing, and it was what I wanted to do with my business life.

13:29Up until then, my wife, Winnie, was doing most of the work, the sideline work, in the office right here, and she was doing fine. So I was in no hurry to hire Mark, not that he wasn't a good guy or it wasn't a good deal, and certainly there were things that he could do that she couldn't do. But I was reasonably happy, and finally I consented to let him do it. And it was all right, and he was a good guy. I liked him, and he was very smart and very efficient, so it worked out pretty well. Tell about the conversation the two of you had at the Plaza Hotel Bar. Oh, he was talking about my going, leaving Wilson or going further with them.

14:34And he was asking me for permission to go talk to Mr. Bowman, who was president of Wilson. And finally, I agreed to that. And he went and made an appointment. And in short, he made a deal with Wilson Sporting Goods for me. And it was pretty much a lifetime deal. And he called me one day and he said, Arne, I got a deal with Wilson for you. He says, you and I need to go see Judge Cooney, who is the chairman of the board, for final approval of this deal. And so we went to Chicago and met with Judge Cooney. and of course the way I tell it to some of my friends was I learned what a lecture really sounds like and what did what did he say well he just told me that he had all the best golfers in the world he didn't need me and had Sam Snead and Gene Saracen and Patty Berg, all those good golfers.

16:00And for the deal that we had worked out, it was a little beyond. He didn't think that they needed my expertise in their staff. What are you thinking to yourself as he's saying all this to you? About yay high. I felt very, I was mad at Mark, for one, for thinking that he had made a deal with Wilson for me for life. And of course, when this all came up, and it did, and it was hashed around, and that we ended up walking out with nothing. How was it, though, almost a blessing in disguise? Well, of course, I've often wondered that question myself. You have. I often wondered what it would have been like had I stayed with that deal, if it had worked.

17:13But they turned it down. They didn't want it. Everything I had won up until then was with Wilson equipment. I won golf balls, clubs, bags, everything. And I now had nothing. I had to start over. I was angry. And I say angry because they had made Mark think he had a deal. He didn't. And I didn't, and we were starting over. I didn't mind. I really did not mind. I thought that there would be certain curtailment in the deal with Wilson and myself that maybe I wanted to do more, wanted to go further into the world of sports. But that ended it right there. It ended everything. and of course immediately upon leaving we started negotiating to make new deals.

18:27Well and it freed you up to be able to do so many other deals which ultimately led to all the sponsorship success you've since been able to have. That's right. Explain how you now have one of the hottest selling brands of teenage girls clothing in Japan. Well, that's good news. It's great news. Surprising news. And Asia is good for us. It's a good business. I had some good success in Asia, and Japan particularly has been good to me. Korea has been good to me. And, of course, that would have been Wilson Sporting Goods if I had followed through or if they had followed through with the deal. I'm not unhappy at all having done all these years without the association.

19:40Some of the people, however, that were with Wilson that became good friends of mine in the years that I was with them were hurt. and I was sorry for that because they were good people and they enjoyed what they did and they went on to do the thing that they were doing but it was a hurtful thing to me and knowing what I know now that the judge was wrong by his decision was not very nice but it didn't bother me too much. And you now have hundreds of Arnold Palmer stores internationally selling your clothing and apparel. How do you go about deciding what business ventures to get involved in? Generally, it was things that I used, one way or another, and that was the decision that I usually made.

20:46if I didn't use it or if I didn't like it I didn't make a deal I didn't give them a chance to say no you're not doing following the rules so I just really followed all the rules of the business deal and it wasn't bad it was it was pretty good actually and has been pretty good and and really it's just living up to yourself, making yourself honest and feel like you were doing the right thing. I want to talk to you about some notable moments from your career. The latter two moments I'm going to mention being a couple of the biggest highlights. The first one perhaps being one of the lower points and that being the 1966 US Open.

21:35You lose a six shot lead, six holes to go. Explain what you're thinking walking up the 18th fairway. Well, let me correct you a little there on six shots. It was actually seven. Seven. But that was with nine holes to play. And I hit a few bad shots, not knowing anything about what was happening the other way. And I missed a couple putts, made some mistakes. But under normal conditions, you know, who's going to shoot the kind of golf that Bill Casper shot in that last nine holes? That was exceptional, good golf. and some great putting and great playing to tie me. And I missed a little putt at 17.

22:41I remember about a three - or four-footer right straight uphill, and I was mad at myself for that because at the time I thought, well, that might be the open right there. But it didn't happen to be. We tied, and of course then I lost in the playoff again. But it was hard on me for a while. It was one of the biggest defeats of my life, and it was the National Open. It was something that was very, very important. But those things happened. I lost some others. not similar but I lost some other tournaments and some other playoffs and and and yeah I suffered but overall I felt that I was very fortunate I was very lucky to to be where I was to win what I did And to say that I had lost the Open, I did.

23:54And I played poorly in the nine holes after having played very well during the tournament. And there was nothing I could do about it. And I said, well, as my father always said, just grin and get on and get to the next tournament. What was the toughest part of handling kind of the aftermath of the loss? Well, most of the people that were my friends, they didn't change them. They were still my friends, and I was thankful for that. And it encouraged me to go on and play some more golf and play better golf, which I did. And I won after that. So it wasn't the end of the world. It felt like it for a while, but it wasn't the end of the world.

24:51And as I went on and on and won some more tournaments and had a pretty good career, I was thankful. The National Amateur Championship, when you won that, what did your dad say to you afterwards? Nice going, boy. that's all he said but that in a way wasn't that the first time he complimented you my father was very tough he was never one for throwing out rewards or congratulations and and when he said nice going boy I knew what it meant and I felt it and I was grateful. Your long-time assistant Doc Giffen was quoted as saying without winning that you may not have had the confidence to turn pro. How to what extent would you agree?

25:57Well, I called it the turning point. And it was the turning point in a way. It gave me the confidence that I needed to go ahead, turn pro, and get on the tour and play. And, of course, with the contract that I had with Wilson, which goes back a few years, it was pretty restricted because I wasn't getting a lot of money. I was doing enough to survive, and I was able to play. And for six months, I couldn't get any money other than what was not PGA events. So what I won was pro-ams and events that were not PGA-specified events. And I managed, and then I ran into a man by the name of Spencer Olin, chairman of Olin Matheson Chemical Company out of St.

27:07Louis. and I played with him in the Greenbrier tournament and it was a pro-am and we did pretty well. And he shared his winnings with me, which was strictly amateur. And I made some money and I felt like I was now ready to go. And people may forget the money you could make playing on the PGA Tour back then when you were first starting out. It's unlike anything the players are making today. I mean, you're driving from tournament to tournament with a trailer on your car, staying in motels, just literally trying to make ends meet. What do you recall from driving up Magnolia Lane into Augusta National for the first time?

28:06Well, it was, of course, the greatest thrill of my life, going to Augusta to play in the Masters. And, of course, I remember Magnolia Lane very well with the trees and all the things that happened. and then getting on the golf course and seeing the golf course. I remember Ed Dudley was the pro at the time at Augusta, and it was a thrill seeing him. And just being at Augusta made me feel like I'd made some accomplishment. Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, as a young guy when you get there, not only see them, but see them all chatting with each other. What's that like? It's a thrill.

29:04You know, I was raised the son of a golf pro, as you know. And we used to talk about these people that you just mentioned. And I read Byron Nelson's book, and I read Summer Sarzen, and I read Jones. And I remember things that happened to them in their golfing prowess, and I was thrilled. And to know them, see them, play with them, eat with them, was the greatest thrill of my life. Why did it bother you that Ben Hogan never called you by your real name? Well, that's funny because it did bother me. And I wasn't ever quite sure why he didn't, but until the day he passed, I never remember him calling my name out and pronouncing my name Arnold or Palmer.

30:12It was Hey You or something like that all the time. And I objected to it, but there was nothing I could do about it. What was your reaction when you overheard him at the Masters questioning how the heck you got there? Well, geez, I didn't know you knew that, but that he was with my friend Jackie Burke and he said his exact remarks were how the hell did he get in the masters and of course when I won the masters I I personally had a little personal satisfaction from that. But as it turned out, Hogan and I became friends. I never held a bitterness or anything against him. I thought he was a great talent, a great player.

31:18He proved he was a great player. and I accepted that and accepted him. He did his thing, I did mine. How would you describe the emotion of winning your first Masters? Well, you can't put it into words. It was a thrill. I was so pleased to just be there and be playing at Augusta. And then when I won and had the good fortune to win the second time, it was probably the biggest thrill of my life. Jack Nicklaus, I believe you remember putting the green jacket on him when he won his first Masters and then him turning and giving his winning ball to Bobby Jones. What about that made it so emotional? Well, of course, Jack and I were friends.

32:27We were friends from the beginning, from the day he turned pro. And that friendship has lasted through all these years. And I'm very pleased and proud to say that I'm a friend of Jack's and he's a friend of mine and that we've gotten along as well as we have. It doesn't make us uncompetitive. When we play against each other, we play as hard as we can play, and we have all our lives. He's beaten me, and I've beaten him. That's what makes the game of golf so great and what will always make it great, and the fact that Jack and I are still friends. His father was my friend, And I feel some indebtedness to his father and the fact that he was a great guy and that he was a friend of mine.

33:23And Jack's a friend. Barb's a friend. The family are all friends. And I'm pleased and proud of that. Whether it be in the business world or on the golf course, what about the rivalry did you find motivating? Just the fact that he was so good, that he was a great player, and he had a knack for playing the game of golf and played it very, very well. And the fact that once in a while I beat him, that was something that I was very proud of. How do you think you guys most differ? Differ? Differ? Well, I'm not sure I can even explain that. We're similar in a lot of ways, but we are competitive in every way.

34:22Our lives are competitive, and the fact that he was my opponent didn't make any difference as far as our relationship was concerned. I wanted to beat him as bad as I could beat him every time I ever played him and vice versa. And he'll tell you that. But it didn't affect the fact that we went out and went in a bar room and had a beer.

34:53Occasionally I said, Jack, you got the ball too far forward in your stance. Move it back a little bit. You'll hit that driver better. And he did. And it was, that was the problem. It wasn't, so we helped each other. And that was part of our friendship. It was six years between your first major win and your last major win. 24 years between Jack's first and last. You've obviously had far more business success than he has since playing. But I was speaking to somebody close to you the other day who said deep down you would probably think that Jack put more time into his playing game than you did. How true do you think that is?

35:46Well, I think he practiced a lot, but I don't think he practiced more than I do. I don't think that's just a figment of your imagination or someone's imagination because I practiced a lot. The first year I was on the tour, those hands were raw from practicing and playing. Both shoulders were sore from the bones, and I had to have cortisone shots. So all of the above is just a question of what really happened. and Jack, I think, had some problems the same way and as I did. But the fact is that that's the game of golf and the fact that I can say if I needed some help, I could go to Nicholas. How much did it mean to you, his speech, on that congressional medal ceremony day when you were being honored?

36:54I can't tell you how proud I am to be an American, how proud I am of the medals that I won from the presidents of the United States. The Congressional Medal, the things that are things that you just shove away and just say, I'm thankful for the fact that I was fortunate enough to win them. What about it touches you? Well, the fact that Congress and the United States and the people have endorsed an athlete to receive these medals is something beyond belief. and I am extremely proud to have been there, done that, as President Eisenhower, you know, knowing him, being with him, having him call me his friend.

38:04How can you say how much it means? The funeral of your late wife, Winnie, conflicted on the final day of tour qualifying school for Jack's son. Jack had been at all days of the tour qualifying school, but him and his wife obviously skipped the final day of tour qualifying school, fly out to the funeral. and afterwards you and Jack are sitting in front of a television watching his son on TV, who ultimately ends up qualifying for the tour. The two of you have your arms around each other in tears. How would you describe the emotion of that?

38:57Well, you know, it's like my grandson is on the tour now, and he misses from time to time. And I see Jack rooting for him. And it's the same as my rooting for Gary or Jack or any of the Nicklases. It's something you wish them well. You want to see them succeed and you want to be proud of that. And I think that rooting for them means a lot more than anything you can do. I want to take you back briefly to when you were younger and growing up. You mentioned a little earlier about your father. How would you describe what he was like? Well, he was a tough, hardworking golf pro. And he learned both ends of the business the hard way, by experience and by personal work and fun.

40:13And he was tough. He never let up. He stayed tough all his life. And, matter of fact, I think about it, he died a tough guy. He played 27 holes of golf the day he passed. And he was tough. What do you think you most learned from him? Oh, he was honest. and he was probably as honest as I've ever seen anyone. He said it the way it was. He did it the way it was. He helped everybody he could. He contributed. Probably the toughest guy that he dealt with was his son.

41:12and

41:16what did he teach you about manners oh well you don't have time for me to tell you all of that but he he was great on manners I see people in my life and I think about my father teaching me to pick up a fork and a knife or a spoon and eat. And they're too bad they weren't children for my father, because he would have taught them how. Why did your father say you were his worst hire ever to run the golf pro shop? Oh, well, he picked on me. As I said, his son, he was tough on me. He never backed off.