Does the new Austen adaptation suit Mark's sensibility? With George MacKay

0:00Simon Mayo: Now, Mark, I don't know why all these trendy podcasters need to sell such tat in their online shops these days. You'd have thought the show would have been enough for them. I mean, look at this tea towel. Simon, I think that's our shop you're browsing, isn't it? Oh, so it is. Actually, those Kermode and Mayor director's chairs are very nice, and it's all incredibly slick and easy. That's probably what confused me. That's because it's powered by Shopify. Shopify is where you go to start your business. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, which means our top production team can concentrate on, well, whatever it is that they do.

0:34While Shopify does all the hard work, because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it.

0:41Simon Mayo: And Shopify checkout helps more customers finish their purchase. Then when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Simple. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

1:22Why am I losing? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+.

1:35Simon Mayo: Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in Questions Shmestions. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non-fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you.

2:21Simon Mayo: what's up what's up what is everything is up everything everything is up in the so we need to explain at the beginning are you all right you're going to expire okay we need to explain at the beginning of this program how this is working. So I am not in Cornwall. I am in London's... Or Shedd somewhere. No, I'm in the heart of the Take HQ on Theobald's Road in London. Take HQ. Okay, that looks very lovely. Exactly. Well, you know what it's like, Simon. You've been here before. I was there yesterday, in fact. You were here yesterday when you were speaking to today's guest, which I won't preempt. But you and I were going to be doing the show in the same space.

3:05We are now not doing that. For complicated reasons, you are actually at your home in Showbiz North London. I am at the home of the Take HQ. And the reason I am here is because, and the reason I'm dressed as... Immaculately, like you're an elder statesman. Thank you. I will take that in the spirit in which it's intended, is that I am wearing my suit because I'm going from here to Heathrow to go to New York to introduce the director's cut of The Devils at the New York Film Festival.

3:35Simon Mayo: Have they seen your social media feed in customs? Thank you for bringing that up straight away. And I'm glad this podcast won't go out until after. So when you're listening to this podcast, one of two things will have happened. Either I will be ensconced in New York and, you know, gearing up to do the devil's thing, or I will be on a flight home because, as Simon just pointed out, they're a bit jumpy. But the other thing is the last four times that I've been on a plane, they have lost my luggage. And the last time it happened, I was coming back from Ireland. They lost my base. So I've got it back, but I have to have this suit to introduce the film because it's at the Lincoln Center and I have to be in a suit.

4:17And I figured the only way I can guarantee that they can't lose my suit is I have to wear it now on the plane. So I literally had to wake up this morning in Dean Street and then slub all the way over here to Theobald's Road wearing the suit. and then I'm going to be on the Elizabeth line wearing the suit and I'm going to think and then I'm going to have nine hours on the flight to get to there where they won't look at my social media. And then, so anyway, that's why I'm dressed as an elder statesman.

4:45Simon Mayo: So what time, when are you on stage? Not today, Saturday. I'm going today because I've got to, I'm doing interviews for the film because I'm, you know, because I'm sort of the, because I was involved in the restoration. So I'm the voice of the reissue. I'm being interviewed by Rolling Stone. You're the restorer, in fact. Well, no, because I didn't do the restoration. I helped them find the footage however many years ago it was. But we'll review it when it comes out. I'll tell you my review, film of the year. It's going to be fab. But I just want everybody to collectively hope that by the time you're listening to this, I am indeed in America through customs.

5:27I'm not Guantanamo. Yeah, and can you actually not make those jokes? Because I'm actually genuinely quite anxious about this, all right? Okay, yeah.

5:38Simon Mayo: How are you? I'm very good. So you're going to stand up at a podium at the Lincoln Center? It's on stage at the Lincoln Center. Yeah. On stage at the Lincoln Center. I mean, I did it at Cannes, you know. I did it at Cannes and it was fine. Is it the Lincoln Trump Center? Is it that place? No, that's the, what are they calling that? Kennedy. The Kennedy Center. Which he's apparently going to knock down because they said he couldn't call it the Trump Center. So apparently he's going to knock it down. Yeah. Well, there's an apology in take two, which I have to make because it's easy to confuse your American presidents.

6:12Simon Mayo: So I did last week, but we'll get to that. Did you? Okay. Yeah, in take two. Anyway, that's enough jaunty interplay for now. Why don't you tell us what you're doing for the rest of the show? I just want to say firstly to the listeners, it does actually say on the script, delightful jaunty interplay. That was it. I think we've done that. And then it says, Mark talks enticingly about, so the films we're reviewing, Heart of the Beast, Brad Pitt and a Dog, Borman and the Devil, which is a documentary about the making of John Borman's Exorcist 2, The Heretic, Her Private Hell, about which you spoke to Nick Winding Refn last week, or NWR as he describes himself, and a new version of Sense and Sensibility with our very, very special guest.

6:55Simon Mayo: Yeah, it has a great cast in, George Mackay. is one of those stars in an ensemble to dive for. And so George Mackay will be talking to us about sense and sensibility. Also, reviews in Take Two, available on Patreon. What are you doing there? We have a review of Baby Star, which is a film which concludes that social media, it's not entirely a good thing. And also, we have our five-question film club, Three Questions Your Majesty, which I'm very excited about this week. you can get take two ad free by heading to our patreon page just search kermitomeo patron and you'll find us there here's an email from well this is a very good start isn't it uh chris it's from chris it's going swimmingly yeah uh dear ketchup and mayo i followed the show through its many incarnations and i think this podcast is the best yet how about that that's it that's a good that's a good promise great chris with so many films now pushing well beyond two hours i've started treating bathroom break strategy as a vital part of my cinema planning the cinema after all doesn't have a pause button i've had two memorable experiences during the dark night i was desperate for the loo halfway through but i was so engrossed i refused to leave it was an uncomfortable victory but i made it to the credits my second experience was less successful at a sold-out imac screening of star trek into darkness i accepted defeat and went to the bathroom only to return and completely forget where i was sitting after awkwardly climbing through the wrong row and apologizing to numerous strangers i finally found my seat but spent the rest of the film mortified since then i always go just before the trailers do you or the vanguard have any cinema bathroom rituals and do you share the fear of missing something crucial while away um up with intermissions and down with extra large beverages kind regards from chris i mean that's there's a good point there about extra large beverages that's the first thing don't yeah don't have one i think your bladder is weaker than mine that's my uh hunch what is your but and you're seeing movies all the time what is your strategy sorry why do you think that my bladder is weaker than yours because you you seem to nip off to the loo more often do i i think so anyway i might be right but anyway can i just say can i just say never during screenings i don't ever leave the film to go to the loo in a screening and the reason you work that one through yeah the reason for that is firstly um when you're a film critic the first question anyone asks is what's the running time in fact my very good friend nigel floyd said that if he ever wrote his autobiography which he won't he's going to call call it what's the running time?

9:44So the first thing you do is what's the running time? And then, for example, say I've got a 10 o 'clock screening and the running time is over two hours. Okay? Yeah. Fine. In that case, no fluid intake before that. You know, wake up in the morning, maybe have an espresso. That's fine. But no fluid intake, you know, for at least a couple of hours beforehand and literally go for a wee at three minutes to 10 at the last possible moment. Last possible. Yeah, absolutely. That's, you have to you have to because i mean you think about if you even if you're an audience member i mean if you step out of star trek into darkness you could come go out to the loo come back they could be in an alternative universe they could be character you know it's i you yes you can't do that so and that's one of the that's one of the reasons we have to be very very very careful about

10:30Simon Mayo: it yes you have to be basically you have to you know if you have the discipline and mindset of a film critic chris you'll be fine it's if you're kind of slack and you just go oh yes i'll have an extra large diet pepsi thank you very much indeed although diet pepsi i don't like very much but you know anything large you you are going to have to uh disappear all the time but we do recommend the run pee app have you heard this yes it's identified the following micturation opportunities so basically it's a it's a it's a film app that tells you when you can go and have a pee without missing anything crucial yeah so for example in in the odyssey at 27 30 27 minutes and 30 seconds for three minutes and 50 seconds when Odysseus says with a little luck and the right winds we'll see some more of the world and still get home before Agamemnon there follows mostly scenes about sailing and pillaging for resources so this is this is very useful at 58 minutes and 50 when Odysseus says the men became more convinced that I offended Poseidon this is one big action scene that's easy to summarize so it's it's full of that kind of thing i didn't know this existed until this week so the run p if you think that you're going to see an epic and you know that you're not going even being disciplined the way mark is that you're not going to be able to make it it sounds like a crucial app to have so that they've seen the film and they can tell you when to go to the toilet yes can i just say i'm slightly offended that you think you think so poorly of my bladder i'm trying to think on what on what you're basing it because I've never in a screening with you.

12:05You've never, well, we're barely in screenings together, but when am I constantly rushing off to the loo? If we're in the pub, if we're in the pub, then that's different because if you're necking pints, then yes. I think it's just a general sense. Well, how can you have a, that's what offends me. That's what offends me is that you have a general sense of me needing to go to the loo. Tell us something that's out this week. Her Private Hell. Yes. This is a new film from Nick Winding Refn. Nick Winding Refn. Oh, yes, or Winding, or however, anyway, NWR, as he described it. Director of Drive, Only God Forgives, Neon Demon.

12:41I have to say, I've been a fan of many of NWR's films, which are perhaps best known for their glossy visual style, lots of pink, lots of blue, but I think at best have some real substance. Okay, so, Her Private Hell. Technically, this is a science fiction inflected thriller in which Sophie Thatcher is L, who, and forgive me if some of these plot points aren't quite right because it's a bit confusing. She's an actress playing in a film, apparently living in a tower surrounded by mist. Christine Frost is her new co-star, Hunter. Elle has a frosty relationship with her stepmother, Dominique, played by Havana Rose Liu, and who has married her filmmaker father, Johnny Thunders, Dugray Scott.

13:26And there is also a mythical killer at large, the improbably named Leatherman, which is presumably, you know, a killer who's got a useful Swiss knife attachment that fits like a multisome. Very good. Anyway, here is a clip from the trailer for Her Private Hill. Beautiful. Sweet. Powerful. You either have it or you don't.

13:56The moment you forget that.

14:02Simon Mayo: is the moment you disappear.

14:08Have you heard? There's been another victim of the Leatherman.

14:16Is he a ghost? A monster? A god? If you think he's playing games with you, he is. so towers princesses stepmothers evil monsters um it's it's it's a fairy tale as indeed uh nick winding ref and himself made clear now here's the thing because your interview with him was really great if anyone's listening to this and they hadn't listened to the interview go back and listen to the interview because what i'd like to do in this review is respond to the points that nick winding ref and raised about the film okay so he says this quote in the interview on a factual level, it's about a young girl who searches for her father.

14:59And on that journey, she creates the perfect father and then ends up being caught in her own nightmare, her own private hell. It's a fairy tale. Okay. So back in a few years ago, I think it was 2023. And you talked about this, Nick Winding Refn was technically, in inverted commas, dead for 23 minutes due to a leaking heart. And he talked about this experience of being medically dead. It was an operation that was going on. And that this experience reinvigorated his creative soul. He said, God killed me. But then he was saved by the Tom Cruise of surgery, was brought back to life by electricity, very Frankenstein, which re-sparked the flame.

15:36Okay. And he says, he then referred to himself in the interview as a visionary artist. And he did it sort of slightly self-mockingly. Incidentally, there is a very good video, which I sent you, of William Friedkin interviewing Nick Winding Refn, in which he calls himself a visionary artist and William Friedkin calls for a doctor. So he said that after this near-death experience, he came back wanting to contribute to humanity by making movies that can be a collective experience. That was exactly what he said, right? Okay. If Her Private Hell is a collective experience, I think that experience may well be one of sleeping or snoring or booing.

16:13He talked about the fact that the film, when it played at Cannes had contributed to the world because it caused uproar at Cannes, right? And he said, that's how you know you've done something right. Well, sometimes it is true that making a film that caused uproar at Cannes is you've done something right. Sometimes it's just because you made a film that isn't any good. He said he wanted to make a story for young people who were disappointed with the homogenous style of modern entertainment. And yet, I don't know how you feel about this. This looks to me like a film made by an older man who has absolutely run out of ideas and is just plagiarizing his own back catalogue and doing stuff that he's done before.

16:49He said that he wanted to make a movie that AI could never make, one that the AI algorithm would consider the enemy. A commendable goal. A commendable goal, and I agree that AI would never dream this movie up. But if this is the enemy of AI, then we are all sunk because this is not an enemy that is putting up much of a fight. You describe the film as resembling a near-death experience. And I certainly felt watching it that I was in danger of dying of boredom. You also said that it had a hallucinatory quality, which is a polite description of the film's narrative, which is just navel-gazing style over substance nonsense.

17:30This whole thing about, he said that the film's got a philosophy and the fact that it's got a philosophy is polarizing, and that's what makes it dangerous because it's got philosophy. And I was thinking, yeah, I love Videodrome. I love Videodrome, which that idea comes from. And I wish I was watching Videodrome. He also said, it's no longer about good or bad. It is about your experience as a viewer. Well, I am a viewer and my experience of it was definitely bad. It was absolutely about good and bad. And it was bad. He also said, I am very conscious of time. And when I'm asking people to give out what, you know, when I asked them to give their time, well, it's 109 minutes long.

18:06and I would like to ask for at least 19 of those minutes back. He said that the film, and I know he was being tongue-in-cheek, contributed to human evolution. I think it put the cause of human evolution back several years. He also then finally said towards the end, the film is an installation with moving images, to which I would say, fine, put it in an art gallery, get it out of my cinema. He said, it's an opera, a horror film, an action movie, to which I would say it's not operatic, it doesn't have horror shocks, and it's not got any entertaining action in it. He said that he loved making the film, which makes perfect sense because as we know, the more fun people have making a film, the less fun anyone has watching it.

18:41And the best thing about it is Pino DiNaggio's music because at least that gave me something to hang on to. Refn asked DiNaggio to write him an opera, which DiNaggio did. It's just a shame Refn didn't make a film to go with it. It is all style, no substance. It is a load of pants.

19:00Simon Mayo: Yeah. Insufferable is another word that I would use. in its your witness yes I mean it is certainly very stylish however in its faith I'm looking for a reason why it got a seven minute standing ovation at Cannes I know everything everything gets a seven minute standing ovation at Cannes it could be that AI looks at this film and goes shall we not bother you know let's I don't think if they come is that the best okay no I they're no threat that's what I mean when I said it's the enemy of AI. If AI looks at this and thinks that's the enemy, there's no point wiping them out. I mean, they're just doing, they're just gazing at their own navels.

19:43Simon Mayo: Yeah. It was just hugely, hugely disappointing. I mean, it's a really captivating story that he tells about how he'd run out of, um, run out of ideas. He's going to, you know, stop. Uh, then he, and you're absolutely right. He described, you know, the opera, his problem and the, the problem with the valves and the blood running the wrong way around his body. And the, you know, the Tom Cruise, the surgery, you know, it's very, very, very cinematic. And God brought him back from death or something. But you would think if God brought him back from death, God would have given him a decent idea because God did not.

20:19Simon Mayo: I'm, you know, I'm very pleased that him, that he is well. And I'm very pleased. So am I. And I like him and I like many of his films. That's great. But I, I also, I also think, I, I also think that he knows this is hooey. And I think that when he's saying, you know, I'm a visionary filmmaker, he knows it's hooey. I think he's just chancing his arm. Still to come after the break, Mark will talk about the box office top 10, Heart of the Beast, Borman and the Devil, and Sense and Sensibility. Gorgeous George Mackay is our special guest. And a quick reminder that there are only a few tickets left for our Christmas special, which this year is at the Bristol Beacon on December the 6th.

20:57Simon Mayo: So if you'd like the chance to appear in abridged versions of Scrooged and Die Hard? Live on stage, head to the ticket link in the show notes, which is http colon forward slash another forward slash www.fane.fane.co.uk forward slash kermode hyphen and hyphen mayo. Are you serious? Yes, that's what you do. Or just click on it and everything is a lot easier. Or just Google it.

21:35Simon Mayo: Hey, Mark Kermode. Fancy a fun quick-fire quiz? I thought you'd never ask. Great. How do you protect yourself from spoilers? Well, you never watch the end of the film. Well, a bit impractical, but fine. How do you protect yourself from getting wound up by noisy cinema-goers? There's no need. I'm a very tolerant man, as you know. How do you protect yourself from getting bored of The Exorcist? It's impossible. Anyway, shall we start this fun quiz? What's more fun than being well protected? Okay, is that part of the quiz? I'm doing the questions, thank you. How do you protect yourself from online scams?

22:08Ah, finally, a sensible question. NordVPN's next-gen antivirus. Blocks, scams and phishing before they reach you. Fake texts, dodgy links. Your account is locked. Emails, same app as the VPN. One tap, the biggest protection in the game.

22:22Simon Mayo: Correct, upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app. Head to NordVPN.com slash take to get an exclusive NordVPN deal plus four months extra risk-free.

22:56vision how is this possible don't miss the two episode premiere of marvel television's vision

23:03Simon Mayo: quest nothing bonds a family together quite like mortal jeopardy now streaming on disney plus

23:17Simon Mayo: okay let's rock with the poptastic box office top 10 starting at number 10 Vengeful out of the momentarily I think actually it's a shame that this Insidious movie isn't going to be sticking around in the top 10 any longer because actually I think coming up every week with a new title for it of which Vengeful out of the momentarily is actually very good it does remind me of Pond of Wood or Quantum of Sausage that's at number 11 over there but it's 10 over here number 9 here 7 over there Transformers 40th anniversary event. Yeah. It's an event. But if that's the 40th anniversary, then that is the Transformers that came out.

24:02Where are we now? Go back 40 years. 86. Yeah, so it's not the Michael Bay one. It's the other one. It's the... That's the same as Graceland.

24:12Simon Mayo: So it's the Graceland anniversary this year. So that's how I know. Oh, was it? Oh, wow. The album, Graceland. Yes, yes, yes. 40 years of that. Bad Apples is a number eight here. nothing over there. I mean, I think Bad Apples has got some interesting ideas and I love Saoirse Ronan. I think the problem is it doesn't push the ideas hard enough and therefore there's a kind of credibility gap because Saoirse Ronan's character does something that would only make sense if the comedy was more outrageous. And if the comedy isn't more outrageous, the satire isn't more outrageous, you end up just thinking, I don't think that would happen, which is a shame.

24:48Simon Mayo: David near Sheffield says Hi guys, the film felt like two tonally different tellings of the same plot mashed together and unfortunately poorer for it Saoirse Ronan is excellent in the darker and more realistic version but the tension and sadness she brings is made somewhat inconsequential by some sitcom-like scenes worth seeing if you like dark comedies or just for Saoirse Ronan alone Yeah, I mean Saoirse Ronan is always worth the price of admission And like I said, the film does take a swing. I just, I think it doesn't land. That's the problem. Number seven over here, 21 over there, Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger.

25:26The good lady professor, her indoors, said, I was listening to the show. You really like the Oasis doc. And I said, yeah. And she went, well, that's just, but you don't like Oasis. And you went off to work going, oh, you've got to watch an Oasis doc. Which is true, I did. And so, you know, I did enjoy it. I did like it. I mean, it's not a brilliant film, but I did like it and I did say those songs are bangers. And so it demonstrates that your preconceptions can be changed during the course of reviewing. Go in always with an open mind, which is what I did. What was surprising was that she was surprised that I went in with an open mind because she knows me too well.

26:02Simon Mayo: It's hard. And with music, it's hard to have an open mind, isn't it? Because you know what you like and you know what you don't like. So it's testament to the film that someone who doesn't really like Oasis enjoyed the film. Yeah, and I did come out of it thinking those are solid gold bangers, those songs, which I hadn't been thinking when I went in. So yes, it did its job. Well done. Number six is Spider-Man Brand New Day. Done fantastically well. I liked it very much. Yeah, it's good fun. Number five is The Odyssey, number four over there. So congratulations to those two films for basically propping up huge cinema box office returns, which is, you know, it's great.

26:41I know that there is... Have we got more overflow car park of love about these in Take Two? Or have they now run their course?

26:48Simon Mayo: I don't think there's any odyssey, but there is certainly more conversation about these films in the overflow car park. Pressures at number four. I enjoyed it. The Good Lady Professor, Her Endors, and Child Two went to see it. And The Good Lady Professor, Her Endors, his verdict was goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a biscuit, missus. and Child 2's verdict was, oh, for heaven's sake. I mean, I liked it. It's a good old, you know, it's exciting weather. And I think that the performance, yeah, it is a very old-fashioned kind of film though, but I did like it. There was some, you know how many WhatsApp groups you're all in?

27:30Simon Mayo: I'm in a WhatsApp group with my brother and sister. Oh, my sister went to see it, really enjoyed it. Good. I was talking about, you know, because it is marketed in some places, as the untold story of D-Day. But my brother, who has written a book about D-Day, said it's literally in every book about D-Day. This story is in every single book. It is not an untold story. Well, it was even, as I said, in my school project about D-Day back in 1976. So, you know, it wasn't that untold. Number three over here and number nine in the States. So it's a top tenner. That's Shaun the Sheep, The Beast of Mossy Bottom.

28:05Simon Mayo: Matthew Jones in County Westmeath, Ireland. Dear Bitser and Farmer, Sean the Sheep has been with me for my entire life. From a close shave to his long-running TV series and excellent feature films, he's always been a source of joy. Add to that my lifelong love of Frankenstein stories and the universal horror canon, and I was eagerly awaiting this latest Aardman effort. As a Sunday treat, I went to see Sean's latest adventure and can report that it wasn't as good as I'd hoped. Oh. It was better. Oh, good. Oh, good. Okay. eschewing dialogue and exposition it is pure cinema classic mad scientist and movie monster tropes are transformed into a story that's moving hilarious and surprisingly thoughtful the film is packed with nods to frankenstein beauty and the beast evil dead and even a spider man too yet as mark says the references work whether you spot them or not the i don't know if you said that i think you probably did i did i did yeah the animation is astonishing particularly the complexity of the wool and fur work.

29:04Simon Mayo: Blending the heart of the first film with the pace of the second, this is a first-rate family film and perhaps an instant Halloween staple. Tickety-tonk and such, now more than ever. Matthew Jones in County West Meath. Okay, very good. And impressive to get in the top 10 in America, because a lot of these British films do not do that. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree with every word of that email. And I would say that This has now created a new Halloween double bill, which is Wallace and Gromit, Curse of the Were-Rabbit, and Shaun the Sheep, Beast of Mossy Bottom. They are now absolute, that's a perfect double bill for Halloween.

29:42Simon Mayo: Number two here and there, Practical Magic 2. I didn't like it. Many of our listeners did, and they went along, fueled by Lady Petrol, and had a very fine evening. And we had a very interesting discussion off the back of it about whether or not code of conduct rules apply to certain movies. And the general feeling was, listen, if you're enjoying the heck out of Practical Magic 2, in whichever way you want, that's fine. And number one here and in Canada, Resident Evil as a new entry. Tony from Tophampton. Dear Nemesis and Tyrant, I just left Resident Evil in the IMAX, and while it's not a direct adaptation, it nails the look and feel and flow of a resident evil game.

30:28Simon Mayo: Good. And the wide camera locking around the protagonist is the grammar of the modern entries in the series. However, what I'm really corresponding about is the screen experience at the moment of a, I guess this is going to be carefully worded at the moment of a canine caused masonry adjustment. Mine boggled. the perfect stranger sitting next to me launched their popcorn into the air with a yelp showering us both in sweet and salty i'd previously assumed that this kind of thing only happened in films and we had a good encode compliant laugh about him scaring me more than the movie all the best okay it's a popcorn thrower that's good casper fedelo casper fedelini which is an incredible name must be a movie star anyway hi there long time viewer of the show i just got long time viewer of the show okay yeah i just got back from resident evil tonally the film was nothing like i expected which works both for and against it the jump scares are effective and the visual effects are great yet it lacks tension mark's evil dead 2 comparison is spot on except that the film wears its horror comedy badge rather more openly.

31:43Simon Mayo: Here I kept waiting for, in quotes, the serious bits and was left wanting. It's very funny overall and combined with the zombie extravaganza and a brisk runtime, it makes for an entertaining ride. The packed theatre certainly seemed to agree. Still, I wish director Zach Greger had shifted into a more tense register now and then so the comedy could act as relief rather than just the default. The ending in particular has a few characters who feel a touch too goofy for the roles they're playing. Oh, and Brian, played by the fantastic Austin Abrams, could have done with a sidekick, if only so that 85 % of the dialogue isn't him talking to himself.

32:20Simon Mayo: It's no weapons, but it's a lot better than any of the Paul W.S. Anderson's renditions, which I think are frankly awful. Casper Fedellini. Yeah, I mean, I tend to agree. I wasn't a fan of the Anderson movies at all, and I really enjoyed this. it absolutely isn't weapons. It's a very, very different register. And as I said, I read an interview with Zach Gregory in which he said that after early preview screenings, he had cut a lot of the jokes out because people were finding it too funny. I still thought that it was very funny in the Evil Dead 2 way. I mean, I really enjoyed it. One thing I just want to clarify, there's been a couple of comments under the video because under the video that appears on YouTube of this show, which people said, I can't believe how snobby Kermode still is about video games.

33:08I'm not snobby about video games. I say I don't play them because I don't. It's a way of saying I haven't read the book. It's not saying I haven't read the book because I have a problem with books. It's I haven't played the game. I haven't read the book. I am explaining that that is the context with which I am seeing the film. I'm not snobby about them at all. I think that they are a great and wonderful art form. They are just not a great, wonderful art form in which I am well-versed. So get over yourself.

33:35Simon Mayo: Plus also, it has to work as a film. So again, you don't like Oasis. You go to the documentary, you like Oasis. Precisely. And I really enjoy Resident Evil. You go and see this and you still like it. More of your takes on Resident Evil in the Overflow car park in take two, including a suggestion of what it's about. Search for us on Patreon to get that and this and the other, and all of it ad-free. Speaking of which, here are Smads.

34:03Simon Mayo: Hello, Mark Kermode. Hello, Simon Mayo. Quick question, what's your autumn signature dish? Why are you asking? Because I suspect the answer is a takeaway. That is deeply unfair. But is it? Sometimes it's delivery. Well, perhaps it's your pans that are holding you back. Food sticking, pans burning, uneven heat. That's unusually generous of you. Gordon Ramsay uses hex clad at home and in his restaurants. you could try them. They combine the searing performance of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get great cooking results without the usual clean-up headache. They're dishwasher safe and easy to clean.

34:42Plus, every Hexclad product comes with a lifetime warranty, so they could genuinely be the last pans you'll ever buy.

34:49Simon Mayo: Upgrade to Hexclad and make everyday cooking easier. For a limited time, listeners get 15 % off with our exclusive link at hexclad.co.uk slash take. That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D, hexclad.co.uk forward slash take. Offer excludes bundles and other items already on sale. Support the show and let them know we sent you. From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest.

35:39Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+.

35:52Simon Mayo: Is it George Mackay time, Mark? It is. It's always George Mackay time. so many movies in so few years Peter Pan private peaceful how I live now sunshine on leaf for those in peril pride captain fantastic true history of the Kelly gang still remarkable 1917 also remarkable Munich the edge of war femme which he came on the show to talk about in 2023 and the beast also in 2023. And now he stars in the rather famous Sense and Sensibility. You will hear my conversation with gorgeous George Mackay after this clip. This house will always be home. We will find somewhere else just as nice as the money father left us.

36:36What money?

36:43Simon Mayo: My condolences. It was my father's dying wish that I should assist those girls. Why must dying people always wish for something extravagant? You hate her too. Admit it! Argh! He's not handsome, is he? You go. Shhh! Forgive me, Edward Ferris. Eleanor Dashwood. I like him. I greatly esteem him. I greatly esteem him. Eleanor, use those words again. I shall leave the room. And that is a clip, as you may have realised, from Sense and Sensibility. George Mackay, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm really well, thanks. How are you? Good to see you. I'm OK. Where are you? It looks like a hotel room, but you could be anywhere.

37:30I am in, yeah, I'm in the south of France because I'm working here. OK. Anything that you can tell us about? Yeah, it's the, I believe so, the Ocean's Eleven prequel. OK. No, it's great.

37:43Simon Mayo: well it's it's great to speak to you uh sense and sensibility i've just walked out what which i realize sounds wrong uh it's the film finished and i left and and now i'm speaking straight to you so it's still um very up there in my mind and uh for the credits that you were going to start with the credits at the end george all the credits run and then it says with george mckay and then it says and fiona shore but it's with is that your first with i mean that's like a grand statement that is it is it's funny yeah my missus picked up on that um yeah it is my first with um which was it which was a privilege i don't think i was aware that it was a with until until i saw it last um last week but no it's great i mean i'm just so happy to be part of this cast in general it feels like a really exciting bunch of actors to to be telling this story but yeah i'll take a wither and end so in introduce us to uh i mean obviously it's been around a couple hundred years but uh uh yeah people will probably know it but introduce us to to this take on it and your version of edward ferris so it's in a galaxy far far away um it's um so yeah our version obviously i'm sure many people would be aware of of jane austen's uh book and and previous incarnations but um the story for those who don't know is it's it centers around the dashwood sisters um the dashwood family but namely the dashwood sisters um eleanor and marianne eleanor who's played by daisy edka jones and marianne who's played by esme creed miles one is represents in her being sense and one represents senses sensibility um one is kind of marshals her feelings um and it's the sort of gravity of the family and the other one is much more kind of impulsive marianne is much more impulsive and emotional than hers um and at the beginning of the film their father has passed away and because of that the house then passes to their brother as was the way in those days meaning that the women of the family um because he's going to move in with his not so friendly new wife um they will they'll be kicked out basically.

40:03And just before that happens, as the clock is ticking on that happening, Fanny, the sister-in-law, her brother Edward comes to stay, who I play. And there is a spark between Edward and Eleanor and a never acknowledged palpable sort of romance begins. And then the sisters and family have to leave to another cottage in Devonshire where I mean, I can tell you the whole story where the rest of the story sort of unfolds. And yeah, but the story is, the film is, that's kind of the first third of the story. And then it kind of weaves and winds beautifully beyond that point. But for me, it's a film about balance, basically.

40:47Simon Mayo: And it's directed by Georgia Oakley. And if I've got this right, she's the reason that you wanted to do this, that you're not a particular Jane Austen fan, but you are a Georgia Oakley fan. Yeah, totally. Like I, I saw George's first film, Blue Jean, and I thought that was absolutely beautiful. And no pun intended, this George's sensibility as a filmmaker and the way that she told that story, when I knew that it was her who was helming this, because I think I probably had some kind of preconceptions of an Austin period retelling. and is that necessary right you know I don't know it didn't it's not usually something that I would jump at but when I knew that it was Georgia helming it um it became something completely different because of the beauty of that film the the tonality of how it was told um and just it made a lot of sense because of the emotions of that film which is um set in the 80s in the north of England about a lesbian woman who is sort of, has come out and is kind of having a lesbian relationship in a sort of quite a secret way, but not sort of completely out to her workplace and the rest of her and the other parts of her life.

41:59And the kind of, all the suppressed emotion and longing that was palpable throughout that film felt so akin and relevant to the emotions of sense of sensibility. So it made kind of complete sense to me. What did she say to you she wanted from your Edward Ferrars? She didn't really say, this is what I want, but she said, the first time we met, I said, should I read the book? Because I hadn't read the book and I hadn't seen any other versions. And she went, well, you can, you don't need to, but what I would like you to read is Mary Wollstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Women, because that will give you a historical context of the time, of the sort of, the thinkings, the sort of feminist thinkings of the time.

42:37And also I think, and in doing so, it made me feel that it's a book that Edward would have read, you know, and a man of that time who would have read that book and felt comfortable and unthreatened and championed those ideas. is, it then became very clear to me, her take on Edward Ferris and that there was an openness and with that openness, a confidence and an agency in him, even though he's quite shy and cautious with his feelings and isn't sort of outwardly ambitious in a way that most sort of male heroes sort of in certain kind of romantic books would be. But there was a kind of quiet confidence and openness that came with an understanding of the understanding the themes of that book and what Mary Wollstonecraft was saying that made it, I don't know, that was a very clear start mark for me on her version of Edward and our version of Edward.

43:31Simon Mayo: So the book comes out in 1811. So Britain is still fighting Napoleon. The Regency period has started. So George III is mad and there's a regent. The Luddites are protesting and so that that's happening mary wilson craft has written this book you are uh deep in this story and i find it's fascinating the fact that you hadn't read the book and you hadn't seen any of the other movies no not even a television which would have been like a i can see how that would have been a blessing have you since gone and watched the ang lee version for example just, just for reference? No, I think this Christmas I will, because I understand it to be amazing.

44:15It's like, and everyone always said, yeah, I did Sensibility. And they went, oh my God, the first version's amazing. It's so good. All right. I hope we don't mess it up, you know? But no, I will. And I just didn't want to be, you know, swayed by the good bits or the bits that I wanted to change. because actually when I then read the book, I was quite surprised that the Edward Ferris in the book, given the Edward that I interpreted from the screenplay, because Diana, our writer, I think she wanted to sort of draw out the love story between Edward and Eleanor and kind of have that longing and that yearning between them feel more palpable and more potent.

44:53Where in the book, there's a sort of, he's not ambivalent, Edward, but he's sort of seriously lacking in kind of any agency and confidence. And when I read that, I thought, oh, this is quite a different man than I think, than our version of it and than our version of him. And then it was kind of about cherry picking the bits that were useful and landing somewhere kind of much more sided on the script, but somewhere in between.

45:17Simon Mayo: Yeah. Well, I haven't had a chance to talk to Mark about it, but my opinion of it was you absolutely didn't mess it up. I thought it was delightful. I thought it was great. You know, the Ang Lee film is terrific, but it's 30 years ago. You know, this is a whole new generation has come up and they want their own sense and sensibility. And I think you've delivered it. And Daisy and Esme, they feel like they're sisters. I know they've played sisters before in Pond Life, but you believe that they're sisters. Yeah, yeah. And I think that was one thing that, you know, Edward aside, I think that was something that Georgia was very clear.

45:53and that is very clear with this is it was the love of the sisterhood that needs to really be front and centre of this film.

46:00Simon Mayo: Just explain some of the, I'm trying to avoid the word process, but you and Daisy, how you got your act together, you know, how you developed that relationship because... Yeah, got our act together, two acts together. Didn't you write each other letters? Yes, and that sounds slightly more kind of woo-woo than, you know, That was an element of, but in a way, it's a kind of, just the fact that we did that is, I think the key with Daze and I is we felt so comfortable with each other. I'd met Daze twice before out and about and was always very struck by her. Like she's just wonderful as a person, as an actress.

46:41And I think we kind of approach things similarly in terms of we like to do our homework. We feel very enthusiastic about every project that we do. and so to just be met with the person you're playing opposite to have that same enthusiasm as you you just we immediately felt very safe and comfortable with each other so we ran our lines loads we i would run i mean pretty much all my scenes were days but i'd run scenes that i wasn't in with her so it's just about time spent and then the letters was like we don't actually have that much time together to establish this kind of the the love before the longing and um so we just wanted to flesh out what that summer was really it was a whole summer and autumn and kind of so we just wrote a couple of letters of the time in between as to like would you like would you like me to escort you to the garden perhaps we could you know take a walk around the grounds together and it's you know nothing too heavy but just um it just built a bigger picture of of the time that we had together before there is the inevitable gap is it more difficult to play someone who is

47:43Simon Mayo: repressed and where everything is going on internally? No, I don't know. Not, I don't know if that's more difficult. Um, no, no, I don't think there's ever sort of one that's easier one that sometimes you kind of wish that you just put like, just loosen up, just say it, but it is the nature of the man. And I also think, but maybe I think I'm sort of akin to Edward in a way that I don't think I'm as kind of buttoned up as him, but like you sort of I guess cautious you know with certain things cautious with with big feelings and um and and I think days is not necessarily not even cautious but just like you kind of just measured maybe measured uh and I think days is is sort of similar with Eleanor in that way that it's not in any way a kind of lack of feeling it's just an ability to kind of get on top of them and I think when that when you get on top of them too much it becomes repression um and that's probably where edward sits a little bit yeah you and you certainly bring you both bring total commitment and and and you are you are famous for that and chris nolan talking about matt damon for odyssey was was talking about how matt damon's attitude was infectious and the way he was um rippled out on set but people talk about you in the same way george that your that your attitude on set is extraordinary and that is infectious and other people pick up on that do you recognize that is that something you're doing on purpose i was very kind i i think um i don't know i'm just i think i think enthusiasm is infectious and what i don't think you can kind of i think it's a bit knowing to sort of go i'll be the sort of enthusiastic you know i think you know that it like people reverberate on one another and and and so i must say like i was in and out a bit more with this one, but Daisy, Daisy particularly, she, she led the line on this one so much with her attitude.

49:36There was never a day, there was never a bad word. There was never, you know, she was never too tired for anything. Um, so it's kind of, you know, yeah. And you, and, and of course for me coming in and out, I was totally led by that. If you ever feel a bit like, Oh, you know, behind the pace or something, you just watch days and days and as me and the rest of the crew who were there all day every day um and go off that yeah yeah yeah i'm sure every film that

50:01Simon Mayo: you do leaves an imprint of some kind on you but when you rose of nevada which as mark has talked to great length about the bullocks super 16 camera uh and the fact that it runs for 27 seconds and then everyone has to stop yes does that and so does that make you more accurate as a as an actor You know, you, if you have one take on this, get this right or we're all going to have to wind the thing up again. Does that make a difference? A little bit. You know, it's something that Georgia spoke about with this. She's wanted to, this is shot on 35mm film. And she said part of that is it's an aesthetic choice.

50:41It's a kind of tonal choice. But she says, I also do like inherently with film, there is that kind of everyone's on their toes. You hear kind of everyone ready and the clapperboard goes on. and just before you hear and it's like a kind of you know this is your bit there's no fluffing and as soon as your bit's done it stops and i think there is an inherent yeah there is an inherent like we're on stage now you know and and that kind of tension i think is actually useful um yeah so so it's um it does make you more accurate you just you're just aware even more acutely aware of like when you're on, so to speak.

51:16Simon Mayo: Of all the, this is a slightly broader question, but you've been in more than 30 films, I think. Of all the, and this will be a top of the, the first thing that comes to your mind, I think, of all the characters that you've played, which is the one which is closest to the real George Mackay? Probably. The one that your family would recognise? Edward, I'd say. You see, I was guessing that maybe you're a bit like Edward, but I didn't want to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what? It was actually a pleasure because, again, I love playing things that are very outside of myself or kind of, you know, the surface level things are very different either in their physicality or the way they talk or where they're from.

51:58And obviously this is a period piece, but I think the kind of fundamentals of who, at least this Edward, who I'd like to be, because again, when I read him in the book, I thought, oh, that's not who I thought. but yeah I'd say Edward is pretty pretty close and I'm pleased about that

52:16Simon Mayo: I think the film is hugely enjoyable I'm sure the purists will get cross about it but George thank you so much for giving us some time and all the best for Ocean's Eleven the prequel whatever it is that you can't tell us thank you very very much cheers Simon cheers George thank you very much George MacGyte talking about his role All in the ensemble cast of the new version of Sense and Sensibility. We were in the same screening. I had to dash off because the interview was literally like 20 minutes after the credits rolled. So I don't really know what you think. But the film had finished. I just walked out of the film.

52:54That was very funny. Yeah, it was the credit starting. Let me start by saying Sense and Sensibility. Certificate, you. Upsetting scenes, very mild, threat, sex, reference, language. and on the BBFC site, Threat and Horror, one. Language, one. Sex, one. Nudity, one. Alcohol and smoking, one. Theme, one. Violence, nil. Discrimination, nil. I mean, God bless it. This is a big mainstream youth certificate film. There aren't enough of those. So, George Mackay, obviously, in that interview, just covered a lot of the ground. And if you haven't heard the George Mackay interview, do go back and listen to that because that set so much of it up.

53:30It was interesting that the whole thing about him not having seen the Ang Lee, because the Ang Lee version, you know, Emma Thompson famously did the screenplay and that version was so celebrated that it kind of became the version that was in everybody's minds. This is very different. So as George said, this is directed by George Oakley who was BAFTA nominated for Blue Jean, which I really, really liked. And I think it's the feature debut screenplay from Diana Reid. Ensemble cast, George is one part of a huge ensemble cast, which includes Daisy Edgar-Jones who came on our show for When the Crawdads Sing as Eleanor, the sensible one.

54:08Esme Creed Miles as Marianne, the not sensible one. Catriona Balfe as their mother. Frank Delane as the clearly untrustworthy Willoughby.

54:16Simon Mayo: Does anyone do posh and untrustworthy better than him? He's fantastic. He's very, very untrustworthy, isn't he? Herbert Nordrum as the clearly trustworthy and, if truth be told, clearly Norwegian, Colonel Brandon. Being very Alan Rickman-ish. Very, very elementary, although, you know, I wonder whether he'd seen the film. And, or actually with, George Mackay and, actually, and Fiona Shaw, who literally steals every scene she's in as this garrulous character who just laughs and drinks and takes over absolutely everything. So the story is set up at the beginning that the Dashwoods are going to be evicted from their family home because the house, because of the society they live in, is being passed to, not to her, but to a man.

55:08And so it's very clear at the beginning that there is something going on which is to do with money and with gender. You know, it's not just a romantic story. It's a story which has, you know, a social underpinning. And it was interesting that George said, actually, what his director wanted him to do was to read the Wollstonecraft rather than read the Austen first because the politics of it were very, very important. It is also, as George Mackay said in that interview, it is a film about sisterhood and the relationships between the two sisters, well, there's three sisters, but it's the two central ones, is the strongest bond in the film.

55:42And it really helps that they look like sisters. And in fact, the whole family look like a family. Didn't you think they genuinely looked like they were all of a tribe?

55:52Simon Mayo: Yes, which is often not the case. And that's fine. And you can live with it because different members of the family often look very different from each other, but they certainly do look like a tribe. And as I mentioned in the interview, because Daisy and Esme had both played sisters before, maybe that was, you know, they had a head start on that. Yeah, and it doesn't hurt that they are both absolutely brilliant actors. And I believed in them 100 % as individual characters, chalk and cheese, opposite sides, the sensibility, but also as sisters. I think the casting of Elliot Somner, who was terrific as Freddie Miles in Ripley, which we really liked, was a bold and, I think, well-made choice.

56:37And Fiona Shaw, it was every minute that she was on screen. She was just like, yes, and here is the scene that I will just carry off with me. I thought it looked wonderful. George talked about the 35mm. I was reading an article about it, which said that they used a mixture of 35mm and digital through vintage Panavision lenses. And I love that idea that once the, if you're shooting on film, everything snaps up a little bit. But it's also, the way that it looks, it's got this misty, earthy feel to it. I mean, the earthiness, I suppose, is something that we saw very prominently in Joe Wright's Pride and Prejudice, which I wasn't a huge fan of, but I did like the kind of the mud on the shoes of that film.

57:19But I thought this had a, I mean, at times I was looking at this thinking there's a kind of almost Barry Lyndon-y feel to the visuals. It's a very visually brooding film, which is in stark contrast to the Ang Lee, because the Ang Lee is a much, as I remember, much brighter. There's hardly any sunshine. It's very cloudy through the whole film. It is. It's very cloudy. It is Wiley Misty Moors, even though that's not, you know. And it's got a great score. It's got a great score by, and it actually says score by, not music, my score by Roger Goodman. and I hope I'm saying this right, Gula, G-O-U-L-A, who is a London-based composer who worked on Everybody Digs, Bill Evans, which we talked about recently, and that Oscar-nominated documentary, All That Breathes.

58:04And I thought the score was great. I thought the score really got under the skin of it. Again, sort of, you know, quite passionate, quite physically resonant. I mean, it felt, I know that it works with acoustics and electronica, but I thought that did a really good job of sort of grabbing. so I mean I found it engaging I found it moving I cried more than once I mean at the end I was kind of wiping really? yeah I did I did I mean that's partly due to the fact that it's a brilliant story it is a brilliant story and because hey guess what I don't know whether you know this Simon but Jane Austen really knew how to write stories it's a very different piece to the Ang Lee and I did go in thinking it's very I mean it's funny you almost think that the Ang Lee is fairly recent.

58:52Then you pointed out it is 30 years ago. And of course it was at the beginning of Kate Winslet's career. I mean, it was, it was one of those performances that cemented her as this kind of, you know, fantastic all around performer. But I enjoyed this very much. I liked the way it looked. I liked the way it felt. I liked the earthiness and I liked the thing. And I, and I thought that the scenes between, between George Mackay and Daisy Edgar Jones worked really well because the thing that I really like, this probably says something about me, is people not saying things to each other, people being uptight, people being, and he's right that this version leans into that unfulfilled longing.

59:30And I think that's what made the end work so well. I might complain slightly that the poster is a plot spoiler, but I think that's perfectly fine.

59:41Simon Mayo: The other thing to say about Frank Delane, who plays posh Willoughby, but instantly you know that he's not to be trusted. No, he's wrong. He, I was just checking it, he played Tom Riddle in Harry Potter. And once you've been Voldemort, I think there's always a little part of him that is going to be... But he's got that glimmer, hasn't he? He's got the cheeky, you know, which is like... Do you remember when Tom Hiddleston came on the show to talk about the Essex Serpent? He was in that as well, playing exactly the same portion.

1:00:20Simon Mayo: just taking too much of everything. Yeah. Shirt undone. Yes. Too sloppy, too casual. Your parents would say, don't hang out with him. Too much hair. The other person I just wanted to mention, he's well down the pecking order, but I believe his name is Turlo Convery. But basically he's Jack Black and he plays Sir John Middleton. Oh, yeah. Every time he comes on as Fiona Shaw's brother, I think, who owns this cottage. But anyway, he is jovial Jack Black. He is. And he has the best pair of St. Bernard dogs I have seen in a movie. My ambition is to have two St. Bernard dogs. I would love to have two St.

1:00:58Simon Mayo: Bernard dogs. I would think that maybe as they've just come over the Misty Moisty Moor, that they wouldn't be quite so impeccable. But they were just, it's very dog. If you love your dogs, this is a good dog film. And do you agree with me that it looked, I mean, I love the palette of it. I loved the fact that it felt grounded in the land. Yes, and in contra, maybe it was a deliberate choice to take it away from the Angley sun-filled weddings and all that kind of stuff. It's grey. There's a hint of sunshine at the end as things are getting somewhat better and more exciting, but essentially it's overcast and broody.

1:01:35One other point. One other point. A lot of expressive dancing. And I was thinking while I was watching it, I'm imagining that those are anachronistic dances because a lot of them. I'm sure they are. I'm fine. Okay. You don't think they were actually doing those.

1:01:51Simon Mayo: It's the kind of dance you do if you've been to drama school and you've had acting lessons and you're pretending to be a sheep possessed by the devil or something like that. Yeah, the dancing was very, very strange. What is that you're doing? Anyway, I enjoyed it. Big thumbs up from me. Okay. That's Sense and Sensibility. thanks to George McKay for talking to us. Now, even though we're already feeling bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, here we go with a rather fine laughter lift. Oy. Obviously, you'll be the judge of that. Mark got some bad news. Thank you. I'm afraid my next-door neighbour got kidnapped by a rogue group of mime artists.

1:02:32Simon Mayo: They did unspeakable things to him. Hey. So, anyway, the police have been very busy in showbiz North London. Mark, they arrested a duck at the Hampstead Heath Ponds last week. What for, I hear you ask? What for? He was selling quack. He's selling quack, OK. The set-up was better than the punchline in that joke. And finally, you won't believe this, Mark, what a week it's been for crime in the Mayo household. The good lady's ceramicist who endorsed has turned into something of a kleptomaniac. I got a call from the local constabulary at work yesterday Hello, hello, hello, Simon Mayo, the officer said Please can I have a word with your good lady wife?

1:03:15Simon Mayo: Oh, can I have a word? Yes, can I have a word with your good lady wife? She's been spotted on CCTV at the roadworks in Kentish Town and has taken everything inside I couldn't believe it But when I got home, all the signs were there Hey Hey Okay Kind of started on a high note and then sort of tailed off a bit after that Still to come What are we What are we What's going on Borman and the Devil And Heart of the Beast And if you've enjoyed What you've heard so far You shouldn't put that Straight after Laughter Lift You should put that Somewhere else Plenty more film And non-film related stuff Waiting for you over in take two Such as One Frame Back Our extended viewing feature And also Questions Shmestions In which this week We're asked How you define a film That's worth seeing In the cinema Okay just search Kermit and Mo Patreon and join us over there where you can you can where you can get both takes ad free you can plus our exclusive fortnightly extra extra show Take Ultra which features Mark and I enduring the murky world of our YouTube commenters commentators commenters I think I'm doing more of the enduring than you are but yeah that's probably right I'm looking forward to these ads now good

1:04:40From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest.

1:05:03Simon Mayo: Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+.

1:05:33$45 for three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

1:05:46Simon Mayo: Okay, well, that's enough of that. Let's do a movie review, which is, after all, what you're here for, Mark, apart from enjoying all the fun. Yes, and I'm particularly enjoying all the fun of Borman and the Devil, okay? So this is a documentary by David Kittredge about the making of Exorcist 2, The Heretic, A documentary that I have described as the best film ever made about the worst film ever made. This has been a labour of love for the director who interviewed John Borman many years ago and has spent the years since then amassing interviews with the key players like Louise Fletcher, who is no longer with us, Linda Blair, and a great roster of contributors.

1:06:24And the film recounts the story of how John Borman, the brilliant director of Point Blank and Deliverance, and William Goodhart, an acclaimed Broadway playwright, got together with celebrated actors Richard Burton, one of the greatest thespers of his generation, Louise Fletcher, who was Oscared for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Max von Sydow, star of The Seventh Seal and, of course, the original Nexorcist, and James Earl Jones, voice of a generation, to spend the biggest budget that Warners had ever earmarked for a film to make a sequel to one of the most successful films of all time and somehow managed to make a movie that in the Golden Turkey Awards came second only to Plan 9 from Outer Space as the worst film ever made.

1:07:07And incidentally, it was robbed because it is the worst film ever made. Never before in the field of cinematic endeavour have so many, with so much, delighted so few. Here is a clip from the trailer. It's a sort of spell. It's cast over people to make movies. In 1975, Academy Award-nominated director John Borman was offered the opportunity of a lifetime to direct a sequel to the blockbuster film The Exorcist. Borman's follow-up was enormously ambitious and had the biggest budget in Warner Brothers history. And on June 17, 1977, Exorcist II The Heretic opened to sold-out theaters across the country.

1:07:49It was one of the biggest disasters in Hollywood history. David Lean said to me once, he said, John, you know, we all make failures. Try not to make a famous one. And this became one of the most famous failures of all time. I mean, you know, God bless John Borman for saying that about his own film. So the brilliant thing about the documentary is that even now, many of the people involved in the film don't appear to have any idea of why it all went so badly. Least of all, John Borman. The short version is, after the success of Exorcist, Warners wanted a quick cash-in sequel. and they thought, I know, we'll get the detective to go investigating the case and we'll use outtakes.

1:08:26Then, of course, Lee J. Cobb, who played Kinderman, died. Blatty wasn't interested in writing something and also, as he told me, that he wasn't asked. Ellen Burstyn didn't want to come back. Jason Miller and Max von Sydow's characters were both dead. Lee J. Cobb now wasn't there. So they decided to solve the problem by, first, let's bring von Sydow back from the dead in flashbacks. Let's get an A-list director who really didn't like The Exorcist the first time around. In fact, when he was offered it to direct, said, not only do I not want to make this movie, I don't want anyone else to make it either.

1:09:01Cooking up a half-witted metaphysical thriller in which Richard Burton flies to Africa on the back of a locust, James Earl Jones spits an African plum onto a weight whilst dressed as a locust, and Linda Blair puts a flashing Walkman-like thing on her head that enables Burton's father Lamont to enter her dreams before she turns into a sexy split personality in a nightie whose house in Georgetown falls down and falls into a hole after being attacked by, guess what, locusts. And none of the things that I've just said don't happen in, they all happen in the film. What's Richard Burton doing on a locust?

1:09:37And there we are. That should have been literally production meeting number one. Sorry, what? Now, the context for it is this. After Borman made Deliverance, okay, he had been he got amazing reviews he was told he was visionary which he is he made Zardoz Zardoz is a film which manages to be boring despite starring Sean Connery in a red leather jockstruck but the point was he said about this that this was the chance to make something visionary and enriching a film pardon me I'm knocking my things up because I'm waving my hands around to make something inspired by Teilhard de Chardin's hive mind world mind thing a chance to make a metaphysical thriller that would undo all the bad things that The Exorcist had done.

1:10:20So foolhardy at the beginning. Actually, if you want the metaphysical thriller, Blatty was off doing that with The Ninth Configuration, which incidentally wanted...

1:10:27Simon Mayo: Sorry, just on a pause there. What is a metaphysical thriller? It is about the concept, well, this in the particular case is about the concept of a hive mind. So in the original film, right, the whole point about the original film, it's not about the girl. In fact, they actually say that explicitly. It's not about the girl, it's about everyone else in the house. In this, it's like, oh no, no, it is about the girl. It's all about the girl because the girl is actually part of a breaking out hive mind phenomenon. She is part of a super good future race who will help join everybody together in the world through a hive sort of telekinetic spirituality that will then draw upon it the demonic figure of Pazuzu, who is not mentioned in the original film.

1:11:10I mean, it's nonsense. It's absolute gibberish. and it's just absolute complete claptrap and the astonishing thing is that the whole thing with the first exorcist is really grounded in reality it's scary because it looks like it might be happening this has got its head so far up its backside it is laugh out loud funny it is full of people talking about hive minds and locusts and saying is there no hope after the brushing of the wings is there no hope my wings have been brushed and going on about the good locusts and Blatty hated it because it trashed the original Friedkin called it the product of a demented mind.

1:11:47The makers in the documentary do keep insisting that it would have been received so much better if people hadn't kept connecting it to The Exorcist, to which the answer is it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for The Exorcist. I mean, it wasn't like Warner Brothers were sitting around thinking, oh, you know, we've got$8 million, which we'd really love to give to the director of Zardoz to make a film in which Richard Burton flies to Africa on the back of a locust and Linda Blair's house falls into a big hole after being attacked by locusts. And if I have one criticism of the doc, it's that it does allow people to say that.

1:12:20But the reason the doc works, and this is the genius of it, is that David Kittredge is a brilliant storyteller. I mean, every sequence in this documentary is really, really well put together. It's like triple layers within triple layers. It's really informative. It's got brilliant animation that helps tell the story. It's not just talking heads. But most importantly, it could only have been made by somebody who on some level actually did admire the swing of Exorcist 2. I couldn't have made this film because I just think Exorcist 2 is the worst film ever made. But I am really glad that this documentary has been made by somebody who doesn't think that, by somebody who thinks it so nearly could have been brilliant and then it all went wrong.

1:13:02And so I completely disagree with the director about the value or otherwise of the film. Incidentally, I want to be clear about this. John Borman is a brilliant visionary director and has made brilliant visionary films. And hats off to him for sitting down to do a long interview in which he talks about a film that really damaged his career quite badly. But I think that it's really important that this doc is made by somebody who at least accepts the possibility that this could be good. It isn't. It is the best film ever made about the worst film ever made. And I loved it.

1:13:33Simon Mayo: Is it a documentary that is cinematic, Mark? I thought so. Yeah, I absolutely thought it was. Not least because it's got some clips from The Heretic, which you have to see on the big screen, but also because the animations are done really well. I mean, I saw it in a cinema and I think it absolutely is cinematic. Okay, let's bring you some movie news and some movie adjacent news. This is our much acclaimed What's On feature. You can send us audio stuff. You can send us videos. We've got a video here from Linda Marrick. I'd love to recommend a really exciting screening that's coming up as part of DZ Fest, the Algerian Cultural Festival in London.

1:14:11The film is called Algiers, and it's a gripping mystery thriller screening at Cine Lumière on Sunday, 27th of September. The film centres on the abduction of a young girl and the investigation that follows. The film explores memory, trauma, and some of the unresolved tensions of Algerians' past. And afterwards, I'll be chatting to writer, director, Shaqib Taleb Ben Diab. Please do come join us if you can, and if there are some tickets left. Thank you.

1:14:43Simon Mayo: Yes, thanks for the video, Linda. Send us your videos to the usual address. Did you admire her spectacles there? I did. I mean, I admire Linda's spectacles in real life because I see her at screening. She's a terrific critic and she's a really smart person. And that does sound like a really terrific screening. Correspondence at co-demo.com is where you send your videos and your audio clips and your general correspondence. What else is out? Heart of the Beast. This is the latest from David Ayer, the respected director whose CV includes End of Watch and Fury. And more recently, The Beekeeper and Working Man with Staith.

1:15:18This is based on a script by Cameron Alexander that featured on The Blacklist, seems to happen every week now, almost a decade ago. Brad Pitt, for it is he, is retired Army Special Forces veteran James Belmont. He is haunted by visions of a mission which wiped out his entire unit, the only survivors being him and his combat dog, military dog, Odin. Now, he and the dog go flying in the mountains, not unlike Jacob Elordi's character in The Dog Stars, you know, who goes off flying with his dog. getting away from everything until, whilst midair, James has a seizure, a heart attack it appears to be, going over Alaska and drops the plane into a lake out of which they just managed to escape.

1:16:04And then they are 58 miles of hostile terrain away from the nearest road. And between them are all manner of obstacles, treacherous waters, precipitous log bridges, bears, ravenous packs of wild wolves, all of which they must get through together using their survival skills because that's the thing that they have. Here is a clip from the trailer. You are the first person I've ever seen this far out. What kind of line of work are you in, James? Army Special Forces retired. Hey, did I notice some silver in your dog's mouth? Owen was a combat scouting dog. Target hit him in the mouth with a brick.

1:16:44So get his leg? Yeah. I hope you gave that fellow a piece of your mind. I shot him in the head. Damn. Is that it? This region here is the heart of the beast. Most folks learn that the hard way.

1:17:05So, James and Odin will need all their survival skills to get through this one, and they are in many ways mirror images. They're both highly trained, highly battle-scarred operatives with issues. Odin lost his leg in the war. Brad Pitt's arm is injured, so they've both got an injured limb. They both have PTSD flashbacks. The dog wakes up in the middle of the night dreaming of the terrible thing that happened, as does Brad Pitt. As the tagline says, survival depends on their bonds. Now, there are precedents for this kind of man and dog bonding movie. There's the Japanese movie, Hachiko Monogatari, which told the true story of the Akita dog Hachiko, which we talked about because it was remade in 2009 with Richard Gere as Hachi, A Dog's Tale.

1:17:51Much closer to this is that film Dog with Channing Tatum, which Channing Tatum co-directed. And he starred in as an army ranger with PTSD, taking a combat dog with aggression issues to be euthanized. But of course, during the course of the journey, they bond. Now this, so Brad Pitt and a military dog, both with PTSD, surviving in a hostile world. And the thing is, if you're going to make a movie, you know, Man and then, you know, Beast, the only way it can work is if you've got a lead performance, because obviously it can be largely nonverbal. So what you need is somebody who, you know, who is a star, who is very physical, who can express complex emotions without saying a word, you know, through physicality, who you believe doing the action also has got fragility, you know, those big eyes that seem to sort of draw you in, you know, proper movie star power with depth and fragility.

1:18:50And this film has definitely got that. It's also got Brad Pitt, who is almost as good as the dog. And I'm now going to give you a space to laugh at that joke, which it took me a long time to set up. Thank you very much. Yeah. I was terrified you were going to jump in and spoil it. The thing is, I think Brad Pitt is coasting a little bit in this because the role isn't really that complicated from his point of view. I mean, he's one of the film's producers and it does feel a bit like a vanity project designed to say, look, I may be 62, but I can still fly a plane, make a fire, fish, hunt, splint a broken arm and bond with a dog.

1:19:27Also, getting an exec producer's credit is Damien Chazelle. And that voice you heard in the clip was J.K. Simmons, who appears to have wandered in from a different film just to do a little bit of talking before the plane goes down and then it's Brad talking to the dog or talking to himself. I mean, it's a strangely pointless interlude, but hey, it's J.K. Simmons. As for the direction, look, the director knows how to do action. The film, it's 12A for moderate violence, but there's plenty of wincing. There's plenty of stuff that I had to hide my face from. There's some well-mounted individual set pieces.

1:20:03The plane crash is done well. There's the bit when they've got to go on the bridge across the ravine. That's done well. It's all individually well done, but it doesn't add up to anything. The thing that does surprise me is that the script was on the blacklist, not because it's not very dialogue heavy, because, you know, obviously you can have scripts that are brilliant that aren't dialogue heavy, but just because it just doesn't really have much that's original. I mean, the flashbacks to combat are very, very pat. They're very cliched. I can't imagine that the film is going to have much traction.

1:20:33I mean, congratulations to, I think it was four dogs that played Odin. I mean, it's definitely their film. But they are the best thing about the film. And Brad is definitely second banana. Do you think it would be, you know, did it need a Leonardo?

1:20:51Simon Mayo: Would he have been better? Because he can do those. Well, he gets to fight the bear in Revenant, doesn't he? It's not Brad Pitt's fault. It's that the material is kind of thin. He's a combat-scarred battle veteran who can only get through this if he gets on well with his dog. Right, okay. That's it. Okay. Heart of the Beast. I know all the ads say only in cinemas. It sounds from the way you're describing it'll be on screening fairly soon. I mean it's yeah it is what it is is it a wide screener is it something that you should see in the cinema I'm not sure it's something you should see okay okay don't even bother well that's it for this week this has been a Sony Music Entertainment production this week's team Dom, Eric, Josh and Heather the redactor Simon Poole in take two we're directing you to the Overflow car park for more chat about current film releases giving you some film viewing suggestions related to one of this week's new releases which is Sense and Sensibility, so we're doing best Jane Austen adaptations, TV or film.

1:21:55Simon Mayo: And don't forget, Avon ladies and Avon gentlemen, we will be at The Beacon in Bristol on December the 6th for our Christmas special. Tickets are on sale via the link in our show notes. You can enjoy festive Bristol's Christmas market in the day, then head on over to The Beacon for Christmas nonsense with me and him in the evening, because it's an evening show. You'll really enjoy it. Very good. Well done. No. Mark, what is your film of the week? Borman and the Devil.

1:22:29Simon Mayo: Jaw on the floor.

1:22:34Simon Mayo: And we're back next week.

1:22:41From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

1:22:47Simon Mayo: It's like I'm losing my... The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+.