Has PRACTICAL MAGIC 2 got Mark spellbound? + NICOLAS WINDING REFN

0:00Simon Mayo: Now, Mark, I don't know why all these trendy podcasters need to sell such tat in their online shops these days. You'd have thought the show would have been enough for them. I mean, look at this tea towel. Simon, I think that's our shop you're browsing, isn't it? Oh, so it is. Actually, those Kermode and Mayo directors' chairs are very nice, and it's all incredibly slick and easy. That's probably what confused me. That's because it's powered by Shopify. Shopify is where you go to start your business. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, which means our top production team can concentrate on, well, whatever it is that they do.

0:34While Shopify does all the hard work, because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it.

0:41Simon Mayo: And Shopify checkout helps more customers finish their purchase. Then when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Simple. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk slash take. From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

1:22Why am I losing? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+.

1:35Simon Mayo: Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday. Including bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non-film questions answered as best we can in Questions Schmestions. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non-fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you.

2:21Simon Mayo: well i know this is old news by the time everybody hears this hello um hi but made me laugh go on quote inspired by the bravery and patriotism of apple and google we are changing the name of South Park to South America according to Matt Stone and Trey Parker I mean that's great in one sentence you have to it's very good think that's going to be quite fun isn't it because because Paramount Plus which is where they are is of course it's like they're doing everything that they possibly can to be really, really difficult, which is a splendid thing. They're like the naughty boys in class who can't be expelled.

3:11Because their parents pay all the school fees.

3:13Simon Mayo: That's right, yes, because their parents built a gym. Yeah, that's right. So all the teachers know that you can't get rid of these annoying kids because they're too important for the future. Because your money stream relies on them staying on site. uh anyway that was uh so well i've never been a south park fan particularly but i just thought maybe i'm going to start watching it now maybe everyone should subscribe to paramount plus although the money oh well never mind um isn't speaking of social media which i know you're desperate to talk about am i okay i'm desperate to talk about social media simon i saw a post this morning it it was probably on threads i think but i don't know if you thread really but But anyway, I often forget to.

4:01Simon Mayo: I mean, it's difficult to know how it all works. Yes. But anyway, there's a person called Max who posted this morning, a friend of mine got a tattoo on their arm that says, quote, comparison is the thief of joy. And it really inspired me. So I got the same tattoo, but mine's bigger and much nicer than his. There you go. Okay. I mean, that's almost good enough for the laughter lift. I thought of passing it on and submitting it, you know, to go before the joke council, but I thought, no, I'm just going to use it. Just going to declare UDI or whatever it was. Is everything okay? Yeah, I'm good. You know what?

4:46After recording this show, I am running to Newquay Airport, which I mean, I'm assuming that actually flights are going to be happening because obviously we're recording this on Wednesday morning and the last the last time I listened where are you heading this time I'm heading to Dublin because this is the gang of three mini tour of Ireland so yes so it's Thursday night we're in Galway it makes no geographical sense at all because we go we start in Galway on Thursday then we go to Belfast Friday and then we come back to Kilkenny on Saturday and I was doing an interview with with Radio Ulster and the guy said you know whoever booked that tour you should fire them I said that was us yeah yeah the tour manager got that slightly wrong exactly so yeah gang of three in the house are we still on the road are we nearly there the collective age in in the van

5:35Simon Mayo: is 184 that's quite fun quite good to still be doing that and of course don't forget to plug particularly when you're in belfast my uh appearance at the international arts festival Here's my news. Here's my news. So I was doing... Are you coming? Well, actually, I might do because I was doing the Radio Ulster show, and the gentleman with whom I did it is the gentleman who is going to be interviewing you. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I said, well, of course, you're really looking forward to it, aren't you? And he said, what? And I said, you know, the biggest event of the year. And he said, remind me? And I said, Simon Mayo, 40 years of broadcasting.

6:17Oh, yes, of course. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, that doesn't fill me with confidence, does it? No, he is looking forward. He's basically forgotten. We were talking about something. He's a big fan, Simon. He's a big fan, and I kind of set him up. Here are the details of Simon Mayo in Belfast. Belfast Arts Festival welcomes – oh, there's a big smiling picture of you – welcomes Simon Mayo to Queen's Film Theatre for a career retrospective celebrating more than four decades. not just four decades, hosted by broadcaster Ralph McLean, who I've got to tell you is a really, really top guy. I did two hours of radio with him in which I got to program all the music and he's fantastic.

6:55He really knows his music and he's really interesting and he's a big fan. It sounds like a combination of Ralph McTel and Don McLean. Yeah. And that's pretty much it. In terms of his, I mean, his musical knowledge is vast and all that stuff. Anyway, so he is doing it. The evening features archive clips, conversation, audience Q &A and a book signing opportunity that's the 24th of October Belfast International Arts Festival at the Queen's Film at the QFT which is absolutely brilliant so you've got a brilliant venue you've got a brilliant host it's going to be a brilliant night and there is going to be a

7:27Simon Mayo: book signing opportunity okay and but the best thing as we said last week six o 'clock means that you can come along and then still have an evening out somewhere I mean that's great if you start at six o 'clock and it's only 90 minutes long you'll be finished by 7 30 you'll be in pizza express by 7 45 incidentally i've just noticed further to this in the description of your conversation yes describing your mayo has been a familiar voice to generations of listeners his much-loved radio one shows of the 80s and 90s helped define an era of broadcasting and then he went on to become known for his acclaimed film conversations with mark kermode okay well um and then you say that's great remind me of when the gang of three dates are and i go thank you simon galway thursday belfast friday kilkenny saturday so later well you know sort of now uh what are we talking about which films well in a packed show this week we have reviews of practical magic 2 which is the sequel to practical magic which came out quite a long time ago uh pressure which is uh the latest d-day film fall two sequel obviously to fall one although it was just fall and everybody digs bill evans if you didn't if you haven't yet heard the uh brilliant interview that simon did uh with bill pullman that was on last week's show this week our special guest is well who do you think it is well i know who it is it's written on the script yeah but how would you say it nick it's nick well Well, I always thought he was Nick Winding Refn, but you found a video of him saying his name, which actually sounds much more like...

9:06Yeah, well, the... Nick Winding Refn.

9:08Simon Mayo: We've got, yes. I'm slightly confused because Danish fans say it's Nick Winding Refn. He's got a new movie on the way, which is called Her Private Hell. And so we'll be talking to him about that. And in take two... There's a big documentary release. Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger. Now, you may have heard of Oasis, Simon, because you were the top pop voice of a generation when they were at top of most of their pop. Was that, it was around, that was your sort of... Yeah. Yes, so not when I was on breakfast, but when I was doing mornings. Morning, yeah. In fact, when you and I were working together at Radio 1, when I would come in on a Friday, we'd do all the films in four minutes and all the videos in four minutes.

9:53Simon Mayo: That's right. And of which my favourite Oasis moment was Noel coming in and he sang Don't Look Back in Anger as a solo performance. Wow. And then at the end, I think we made reference to the fact that it's probably available at Camden Market already. Right now, yes. On a cassette. Anyway, okay, so some Oasis chat. You can take two ad-free by heading to our Patreon page. Just search Kermit and Moe Patreon and you'll find everything that you could possibly need. Greg Zed in New Jersey. Okay, so it's probably Greg Z. Z. and New Jersey. Dear Nostromo and Valley Forge, as a great supporter of your fine program for many years, I've enjoyed the light and shade you both provide vis-a-vis the art of cinema.

10:40Simon Mayo: I particularly appreciate the work of The Good Doctor in championing the horror genre, as well as advocating for the revitalization of such important films as Ken Russell's The Devils and for his disdain of the phrase elevated horror. Thank you. However, I knew there was a but coming. In last week's iteration, the doctor at one juncture muttered under his breath, horror always means something. Whilst I agree with you in 98 % of all cases, which I think is pretty much enough, I must respectfully say that movies like the Terrifier series, Hostel and Its Ilk, and indeed a Serbian film, surely offer nothing in the way of subtext, wit or satire.

11:25Simon Mayo: They are simply rubbish in their collective entirety, and I'll not be told otherwise. In the case of the cesspool of celluloid that calls itself a Serbian film, it's the only film I can think of that I forbade my teenage daughter from watching. Simply because something tries to be about something doesn't mean it is. if any of the films i mentioned are about anything other than mimicking the experience of watching an autopsy video then i'll gladly admit that president caligulard is likewise about truth justice in the american way caligulard i haven't heard before that is fantastic and it's a hyphen so that's why i paused president caligulard thing is he wouldn't get that though would he no he wouldn't absolutely would not get that may i may i respond greg z in new jersey yes greg thank you may i respond very briefly um read this to the rehostile and the torch porn movies i i felt the same as you did although i then had a conversation with kim newman who i to whom i defer on all things to do with horror and kim had said look i don't like these movies but they are very popular and they are about something and i would suggest that actually it is worth reading kim on those films because i sort of looked at them in a i still don't like them i but i looked at them in a slightly different light after reading him.

12:43As far as Serbian film is concerned, the thing with Serbian film is that it pretends to be about something. I mean, it pretends to be a political metaphor. It isn't. It is a piece of trash, but it absolutely pretends to be about something, to have this whole great weighty undertow. Again, having known about the film and its progress and and how it got released and didn't get released. I know there are people who pointed it and go, no, no, no, it's very, very serious and this is what it's about. I know that that's the cloak under which it was. But if there is any message in Serbian film, it is absolutely lost under the welter of dross.

13:26I would also say the uncut version of Serbian film, I think is preferable to the cut version because the uncut version is just stupid. And the cut version actually, in a weird way makes the film seem more serious when you see the uncut version you go okay fine

13:44Simon Mayo: you're just taking the mick now okay okay maybe this is a stupid question why does it have to be about something why can't it just be there for entertainment and yes and there you go you walk out and okay fine i had a pizza i've forgotten about it already why can't it just be that that would be fine except that what happens in serbian film is not entertaining and so therefore it has to be justified by, oh, it's about something. No, it isn't. But why couldn't most horror films not be about anything other than just scaring people and giving them a good time? Being scared is about something. And there is certainly, there are the sort of rollercoaster things, you know, the movies that are jump scare movies and all the rest of it.

14:20They are still, in order to work, about something. I mean, the thing may be something really, really simple, like, you know, closed spaces. I mean, so for example, today we're going to review fall too. What is fall too about? It's about being on a precipitous height in danger of falling is quite scary if you're me. That's what it's about. Okay.

14:43Simon Mayo: So is this similar to the kind of Marxist idea that everything is political? Yes. It is exactly that. Famously, things like, I remember having this argument about modern romance, right? You remember I, I, I, I, Moosey. They also had a a hit called Best Years of Our Lives. Now, it's fairly safe to say that in the mid-'80s, for a lot of people, it wasn't the best years of their lives. And so by saying it's the best years of our lives, that was a political record, although modern romance aren't really at the cutting edge of anything, particularly, although they made some entertaining records. So everything is political and everything is about something.

15:16Simon Mayo: Is that what you're saying? Yes, exactly. But horror in particular, because it is a genre of metaphors, is quite often about things that are quite profound. Like it is about matters of life and death, but it can also just be about, ugh, look at this. Fine. I kind of thought that. So let's talk about a movie and then you'll tell us what it's actually about. Pressure. Yes. It's about D-Day. Oh, right. There you go. So yeah, there we go. That was, and moving on. So look, we've seen many screen renderings of D-Day. We've seen it from the point of view of the gliders at Pegasus Bridge in Longest Day.

15:57We've seen the American soldiers landing on the beaches in Saving Private Ryan. We've seen, there was that Eisenhower thing, wasn't there, Ike countdown to D-Day. And of course, from the point of view of Churchill in Churchill. But I know what you're saying, Simon, is that's fine. But what we really need is D-Day to be seen from the point of view of meteorologists. Excellent. This is exactly what we need. Because the weather and weather forecasting was incredibly important. That was absolutely central. Weirdly enough, when I was in the sixth form or something, I did a history project and I did my history project on D-Day, and weirdly enough, a lot of it was about the weather.

16:32So, weather-based D-Day film starring Andrew Scott as meteorologist James Stagg, who predicts that the conditions on the original date for D-Day will be treacherous, the originally planned D-Day. Storms, 10-foot waves. This, despite the claims of the American weather with Irving Crick, played by Chris Messina, who insists, no, no, no, it's all going to be sunshine and light. And he is a garrulous figure. His predictions are based on charts from previous years. Look, in previous years, this is what's happened. This is going to happen again. Stagg is the opposite for him. It's all to do with statistics.

17:06I want statistics. I want data. And he's kind of reserved and uptight to the two of chalk and cheese. And their findings are completely at loggerheads, leaving Brendan Fraser's Eisenhower to have to choose who to trust. Here Fate of the war hinges on this. All the pieces of the jigsaw are in place. There's only one imponderable that remains. I need a forecast. I'm, yes, I'm concerned that what you're asking me is scientifically impossible, sir. Long-term forecasting has really only ever educated guesswork. Monday is not long-term for Christa.

17:44Simon Mayo: Does Monday sound like long-term to you, Janet Somersby? No, it certainly does not, sir. Well, this is northern Europe, sir. Anything over 24 hours is considered long-term, meteorologically speaking.

17:57So it all comes down to George of the Jungle to decide.

18:01Simon Mayo: Good heavens. Exactly. George of the Jungle is absolutely in charge, and only people who are of a certain age would understand why that was a joke. So other key players, you heard Kerry Condon in there who plays Kay Somersby, who is Eisenhower's private secretary and confidant. There's Damien Lewis as Montgomery. There is Conor Neal as Air Chief Marshal's Trafford Lee Mallory. And I mean, it's a very, very good cast. And then there is Tamsin Topolsky as Liz Stagg, who is the pregnant wife of our meteorologist hero, with whom he has no contact, because once he's pulled in to come and do this, that's it.

18:39And despite the fact that he knows at one point that the hospital that she was going to has been bombed, he's completely out of contact. So the film is directed by Australian filmmaker Anthony Mraz, who directed the 2018 real-life thriller Hotel Mumbai, and co-wrote the script for this with David Haig, from whose 2014 play it is adapted. Now, I hadn't seen the 2014 play, but very well received. And of course, the title, Pressure, has a dual meaning. On the one hand, it's pressure. We have to make a decision about when to go on D-Day. That's the pressure. There is so much at risk. The other thing, of course, is meteorological pressure, because in the end, meteorological conditions will define whether or not they can go and whether or not the mission will be successful.

19:23So I think Andrew Scott is terrific in the lead. His performance is all about restraint. It's all about what he doesn't do. When he gets the news of the hospital being bombed, there is a brilliant scene of him barely reacting. But you can see that inside there is this massive turmoil. When he's being shouted down by over-eager generals who are saying, we have to go, we have to go now, we have to go, we haven't got any choice, this is when we have to do it. And he's sort of just standing. And you can see that inside he's broiling, but outside he's barely moving. And the restraint of that performance is starkly contrasted with the kind of grandstanding of those around him with all the military leaders who are all desperate to move.

20:05The only other person who has the same kind of sense of internalized anguish and duality is Kerry Conner's character. And I have to say, I think she's superb. She is really brilliant as the person who is quietly holding everything together behind the scenes. Her presence is variously efficient, mentoring, maternal, calming, stern, but most importantly, sort of all seeing. You get the sense that of everyone in the drama, she's the only one who can actually see everything, you know, to take a step back and see what's really going on. And it's kind of interesting because the Eisenhower character is haunted by visions of a catastrophic training exercise, which resulted in a pulling loss, and therefore is uncertain of how to move.

21:00And she is aware of this, and she's also aware of what's happening to Andrew Scott's character internally, but she is still able to somehow keep her on the board. I mean, it's a very well-made drama and it is it is a different angle on the story now obviously having seen it and enjoyed it i then did the usual thing which is go and look up the historical accuracy and it turns out there's a bunch of things that people are getting agitated about apparently the norwegian sphere pettersen was the guy who actually in the end had d-day postponed it was his weather forecast that foresaw the gap in the storm that enabled it to go when it did.

21:42And as for Stagg, he was coordinating between three independent teams. And so there has apparently in Norway, their noses have been put quite out of joint. You can imagine, yeah. Yeah, exactly. There are also other things to do with the personal story in which events have been moved around for dramatic effect. And I have to say that when I was watching it, I thought, I doubt that actually happened like that. I'm sure that. But here's the thing. you know, it is a film, which is a film. And it is always the case with those war dramas, historical dramas, that there are going to be liberties taken.

22:16And despite the fact that he says at the beginning, a true story, you know that when we come to dramatizing anything, things are going to be moved and emphasis is going to be changed for dramatic effect. It's up to you how bothered you are about that. I have to say that I found myself gripped because I thought the characters worked well. I thought Andrew Scott's performance was really, was really terrific. I thought Gary Condon was really terrific. And I, as I said, from a very early age when I was a sixth former and I did my project on D-Day and it was all about the weather.

22:47Simon Mayo: I think Andrew Scott is on that list of actors who I would see in anything. Yeah. Whether it's a small budget or a big budget, whatever it is, he's sort of capable of anything really. I do think he's a genius. Yes. And I think it's one of those things, the hardest thing to do is to play repressed, to play internalized. It's very easy to grandstand. It's much harder to stand still. Brian Cox said that he was told by Lindsay Anderson once, don't just do something, stand there. hmm that's that's yeah that's great that sounds yeah that sounds as though that's the kind of advice that you would pass on uh if particularly bearing so if brian cox says that then that is then that's definitely true via lindsey anderson so yeah um if you see pressure we would love to know what you think about it correspondence at kodomeo.com is still to come after the break if indeed you're going to have a break because if you know you might not have any break but if you do have a break uh mark will be doing the box office top 10 i think that's what we'll be doing um mark will be reviewing everybody digs bill evans also full two practical magic two and our special guest is nicholas vinding winding refen uh it's one of those uh don't forget there are only a few tickets left for our big christmas special this year which is at the bristol beacon on December the 6th, you can get VIP tickets with the best seats in the house.

24:20Simon Mayo: Wow. Plus a 30-minute post-show meet and greet where you can tell Mark in person how to pronounce Niklas Vinding Refn. He said Winding. He said Winding, Simon. He didn't say Winding. He definitely said Winding. I'm going to have to ask him about that because... Yes, ask him. Danish fans say the Ws as a V. Anyway. And you can also explain to Mark why he's still wrong about Wally Pfister's Transcendence. There's so many opportunities to say, hey, have a chat. Back off. I bet you the redactor wrote that line. You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. I mean, he's also completely correct. Also, there are some seats available in the upper tier from where you can just shout at Mark why he's wrong about Transcendence for free.

25:05Simon Mayo: Well, not for free. So it's either the upper tier where you don't get the meet and greet or the 30-minute post-show fabulous. Do you think you get uppity in the upper tier? You probably will if you can't see or hear anything, but I'm sure that's not the case because it's the Bristol Beacon and everything will be great. It'll all be fab.

25:32Simon Mayo: Hey, Mark Kermode. Fancy a fun quick-fire quiz? I thought you'd never ask. Great. How do you protect yourself from spoilers? We never watch the end of the film. Well, a bit impractical, but fine. How do you protect yourself from getting wound up by noisy cinema goers? There's no need. I'm a very tolerant man, as you know. How do you protect yourself from getting bored of The Exorcist? It's impossible. Anyway, shall we start this fun quiz? What's more fun than being well protected? OK, is that part of the quiz? I'm doing the questions, thank you. How do you protect yourself from online scams? Ah, finally, a sensible question.

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26:38From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+.

27:14Simon Mayo: So here we go with the box office top 10. At number 14, Leviticus. Oddly familiar nostalgia corresponds with this. Thanks, oddly familiar. I just watched Leviticus, and it's a perfect example of the dual self trope that pops up in so many low-budget thrillers. The way the film turns each boy into the other's ideal is a neat echo of the 1970s Italian giallo, The Fearless Vampire Killers, where the monster is literally the reflection you're afraid of. It's funny how the script flips the script on the usual evil twin narrative, giving us a psychological horror that feels both fresh and oddly nostalgic.

27:55Simon Mayo: Love the tight pacing and the way the soundtrack keeps the tension humming. Great pick for anyone who loves a good mind bender. You're right. That is a very smart comparison. Yeah. Well done. Well done. Also, Mr. Ormer's oddly familiar nostalgia. How would you greet them? If they came to the meet and greet, would they be oddly? Welcomed with open arms, I think. Do you think? Okay. Number 10 is Paw Patrol, the dino movie. Yeah. Well, there it is. There what is? Well, I'm going to say the same thing that I say about it every week. because I haven't seen this. It's the other dinosaur movie. The week that it came out, there were seven films out, and I saw six of them, and I haven't seen this, and I haven't caught up with it.

28:41Five weeks ago, that is just saying.

28:44Simon Mayo: Five weeks, a month. Yeah, lots of films coming out, Simon. Lots of stuff happening. Number nine, number three in America is Coyote vs. Acme. The film they didn't want you to see, the film they wanted to write off as a tax loss, and what a bad thing that was, because it's actually a terrific film. And it's very funny and very smart and very sharp. And I think it's great that it finally got released because it was well worth waiting for. Number eight here, number 10 over there is The Dog Stars. Which is, to me, it felt like the kind of film that Ridley Scott made because he wanted to make the Bee Gees movie and it fell down and he had a couple of months to spare.

29:24So he thought, I'll do that. He is unbelievably productive. It is a very incidental Ridley Scott film. I think we have seen quite enough of the post-apocalyptic world movies that all kind of started to look a little bit the same. It's fine. There are individual sequences in it that are good. But this is only its second week of release. It'll be out of the top 10 next week.

29:48Simon Mayo: Number seven is The Death of Robin Hood. Courtney says, Dear Fryer and Tuck, while in Canada this summer, I saw The Death of Robin Hood. my partner father and i went in without any context as the advertising for the film was practically non-existent which i now appreciate is probably because they didn't know how to market it within a few minutes my father lent over to us and whispered we came to see the right movie and we absolutely had wow hugh jackman was brilliant playing robin with a constant hum of mostly restrained violence just beneath the surface not in the first half hour the highest compliment i can give is that i quickly forgot it was him the questions raised around morality redemption and justice have lingered and i find myself occasionally bringing them out and turning them over there's no right answer i also love the flipping of the structure michael sanoski who was on the show commented in your interview that he wanted us and robin to feel like we'd stepped into a different film and i felt it was accomplished but with enough skill that i was never quite sure which decision a character would make because either path felt authentic.

30:54Simon Mayo: I was disappointed to see the reviews in Canada were mixed and I can't help but feel this is down to poor advertising and a misunderstanding of what the film was. Those expecting two hours of helmet-crunching action would probably come out feeling short-changed by all the, quotes, boring talking. Personally, though I'm thrilled it's now being released here, we are absolutely going to see it in the cinema again. I'm looking forward to finally hearing what Mark thinks. So obviously he's going to catch up. Down with those who mistake niceness for weakness and up with resilient Canadians, says Courtney.

31:26Simon Mayo: Yes, elbows up, I believe is the expression. So I think Courtney might be onto something there as to maybe it was a difficult film to advertise because they weren't quite sure how to do that. Yeah, I'm sure it is a difficult film to advertise. I also would like to add that when Courtney says, see you again in the cinema, If you want to see this, you need to see it in the cinema. It needs to be seen in a darkened auditorium. Because so much of that first act, the bloodthirsty helmet crunching first act, is filmed amidst this unbelievable murk, darkness, mist, mud, blood, grime. And you need to be in an auditorium to actually appreciate what's going on.

32:13The film has stopped with me. the accents are a problem I think and obviously that's less of a problem if your ear isn't particularly attuned to them but I there are elements of it that have really stayed with me and it is true that the minute you get onto the island and Jodie Comer arrives it becomes a different film and that is exactly what Michael Sonofsky, incidentally wasn't Michael Sonofsky a terrific interviewee he was good, smart eloquent, knew exactly what he was doing I think he has made exactly the film that he set out to make the issue is that that is a hard film to sell to the public but it is an interesting movie with some and the dirt and grime where they roll and cake themselves is

32:54Simon Mayo: as it as it turns out in northern ireland which is where they filmed it and uh and i think that's where mark is going to be playing very very shortly with his rocking band you know when you do when you do your talk shall we both go to the place where they filmed the death of robin hood and roll around in the mud and murk. Well, I was with you up until that last bit of the sentence. Okay, fine. Sean in Winteringham. I went to a fairly full screening of The Death of Robin Hood at my local Odeon on Sunday. Enjoyed it very much. The first act reminded me somewhat of Valhalla Rising and the later acts of The Green Knight.

33:30Simon Mayo: I wasn't concerned by the initial darkness or the slightly off-kilter accents. I mean, certainly if you're in the cinema, Sean, you're going to be fine. It's just watching it at home is a problem. My enjoyment was only slightly spoiled by the couple who sat next to me, who I suspect had not watched the trailer for the film or read anything about it before attending. Excuse me. There were a fair number of, what's he doing that for? Who's that? There must be some reason he's doing this between the two of them. And when the particular character revealed his particular name, one asked the other, what's he got to do with Robin Hood?

34:07Simon Mayo: which actually because we know yes reveals that they're pretty thick these people who are sitting next to you because he's very much part of the legend of robin hood very much um it may it did make me smile though when following them out i heard him say to her as the worst film i've ever seen it's not robin hood if fryer tuck doesn't appear so okay so i think and sean says anyway We're up with films that take risks and down with the normal stuff. If you want to see a Robin Hood that absolutely has Friar Tuck as a key character or any character, do not go and see The Death of Robin Hood. I don't think it's a spoiler to say.

34:43Simon Mayo: I don't think he's not in it, is he? No, he's not. Also, I love that thing, and I've referred to this many times, that people will go and see a film like that and come out and go, that's the worst film I ever saw. And I always feel like going, come to my house, I will show you the worst film you ever saw. And what would you put on first? oversexed rugsuckers from mars that sounds quite an entertaining evening actually it really isn't um number six here is minions and monsters just fabulous and it's it's so great that it's still there you know it's it's held its audience it's the most cine literate release around it's just wonderful i i love it it's the dark side of the moon of all the of the top 10 because it's been hanging around for a lot longer than anything else at the end of oak street is at number five The other dinosaur movie, which I enjoy.

35:32I mean, it's nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. And Ewan McGregor appears to be in a different film to Anne Hathaway. But it's dinosaurs in suburbia. And hello to Sanjeev. Turns out everyone had a bow and arrow. And I beg Toy Story 5's pardon.

35:50Simon Mayo: It turns out to be the dark side of the moon. It's been there for 12 weeks. Toy Story 5 is number four here, number 15 in America. Yeah, Toy Story 5 has done terrifically well. As you know, I wasn't particularly impressed by it, but we have had a lot of emails from people who have found it moving and have been engaged by it in a way that I wasn't. I wish that I was, but I can't. Who was it who said, Father, I cannot lie? Who was it who chopped down the tree? Would that it were so simple. Would that it were so simple. Three here, six there, insidious. Out of the further... And I still haven't been to see it.

36:31Simon Mayo: Number two here, number two there is The Odyssey, about which we've probably spoken. I always feel car park. And number one here, and there is Spider-Man Brand New Day. So both those films doing amazing business. Yeah, and isn't it great? There are two movies that are absolutely dragging people into the cinemas, and both of them are pretty decent. Both of them are enjoyable. Both of them have got lots to be said about them, and they are. They're just, you know, people are still turning up in droves. It's great. All the whole stuff about, oh, this has just come in. The famous story of young, this is from the redactor, of young George Washington confessing, I cannot tell a lie after chopping down a cherry tree, is a complete fabrication, is it?

37:10Wow. Did he actually go, no, Dad, it wasn't me. No, it's nothing to do with me at all. It was an apple tree or something like that.

37:16Simon Mayo: Anyway, correspondenceofcerminemoe.com. There's more of this stuff in the overflow car park in Take Two. Search for us on Patreon to get that. and this and all the other stuff completely ad-free. On the way, it's our special guest, Nicholas Winding Refn. After this.

37:39Simon Mayo: Hello, Mark Kermode. Hello, Simon Mayo. Quick question, what's your autumn signature dish? Why are you asking? Because I suspect the answer is a takeaway. That is deeply unfair. But is it? Sometimes it's delivery. Well, perhaps it's your pans that are holding you back. Food sticking, pans burning, uneven heat. That's unusually generous of you. Gordon Ramsay uses Hexclad at home and in his restaurants. You could try them. They combine the searing performance of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick. So you get great cooking results without the usual clean-up headache. They're dishwasher safe and easy to clean.

38:18Plus, every Hexclad product comes with a lifetime warranty, so they could genuinely be the last pans you'll ever buy.

38:25Simon Mayo: Upgrade to Hexclad and make everyday cooking easier. For a limited time, listeners get 15 % off with our exclusive link at hexclad.co.uk slash take. That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D, hexclad.co.uk forward slash take. Offer excludes bundles and other items already on sale. Support the show and let them know we sent you.

39:14Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming Omnion Disney+.

39:28Simon Mayo: Now our guest today is Danish writer, director and producer Nicholas Winding Refn, whose work is... Well, how would you characterize his work, Mark? Well, strangely enough, we've already had a reference to one of his films. Somebody mentioned Valhalla Rising. I mean, he started out making kind of very tough, gritty films like the pusher movies but more recently they've been like the incredible stylization of things like neon demon drive i suppose is the one that he's most famous for which i think is a really brilliant drama but a nick wendling refin film now looks it has a particular stylish look to it the way the color palette works it refers to things like giallo movies and i mean they look absolutely amazing.

40:08Simon Mayo: Okay. So, yes, I guess, and he's been doing TV recently, Copenhagen Cowboy and Too Old to Die Young. But anyway, we will talk to Nicholas Winding Refn after a clip from his latest film, which is called Her Private Hell. Beautiful. Sweet. Powerful. You either have it or you don't.

40:35the moment you forget that

40:41is the moment you disappear

40:46have you heard there's been another victim of the leather man

40:53Simon Mayo: and that is a clip from her private hell delighted to speak to its director the legendary nick winding raffin nick hello how are you sir Very good, and thank you for having me. And just to be absolutely clear, it's winding and not vending, as the Danes would say. That is correct, yes. But I've learned through the years that the pronunciations will never be correct. So it was, I guess, why I created NWR, because that's something that everyone can agree upon. That's right. No one is going to get that wrong at all. Okay, so we just heard a clip from Private Hell. Introduce us to where we are with this film.

41:31Simon Mayo: what's the story you're telling here Nick? Well on a factual level it's about a young girl who searches for her father and in that journey she creates the perfect father and then ends up being caught in her own nightmare her own private hell and it's a fairy tale So okay so that's the sort of essential headline but as we just step away from that And I suspect this is the heart of what we're talking about. The catalyst for this film was what happened to you a few years ago. Do you just want to explain how you came to be dead? Well, it wasn't so much the catalyst, but my life has had many wonderful, strange experiences.

42:22I always felt that, in a way, I've been very lucky. at very specific times through my existence. And the most lucky probably showed itself when I, some years ago, was dead for 25 minutes. And prior to that, my creative flame had kind of just vanished, meaning that all artists go through a period or realizations, should I say, where that flame of the creative desire either vanishes or burns out. And in my situation, I was empty inside, meaning that I'd come to the end of the road, which I was in a way, had made my peace with. But also I was like, but I'm still so young. I have so many years left.

43:20What am I going to do? Because that's all I can do is to express.

43:27and then God killed me and I was dead for 25 minutes because I had what is called a leaking heart which means that my blood was running backwards in my heart suddenly because of a bowel issue your blood was running backwards yeah wow okay and I was happily saved by what I would say the Tom Cruise of surgery, who saved me and rejuvenated me. And through electricity, I was brought back to life. And in that process, my creative flame was reignited as if I was 24 again. And that's been an absolute blessing. When you describe that leaking heart,

44:19Simon Mayo: your blood flowing backwards and being brought to life with electricity, It's a very cinematic way of describing what happened to you. Well, I'm a visionary artist, I guess. So are you like George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life? You've got a second go at this. I am George Bailey because I was able to say, Clarence, I want to live again. I had the ability to say to God, I want to live again. And he granted me that wish. I interviewed Ridley Scott a while back, and he's speeding up. He's making more movies now than ever. And you get that feeling that he's on borrowed time. Is that what has rekindled this flame for you?

45:01Simon Mayo: Because Private Hell, it feels at times like a hallucination, like a fever dream, almost like something that you would see. People talk about near-death experiences. It feels like something that came out of this process. Or would that be completely wrong? it wasn't so much to process because once you die it just goes black but when I did come back I decided that I want to make movies again not because of movies themselves because there's movies everywhere around us but I wanted to contribute to humanity by making films for a collective experience going to the movies is all I know It's still my favorite thing to do.

45:48But I decided I wanted to make a movie that the AI could never make. I wanted to make a movie that the algorithm would consider the enemy. I wanted to make a movie for all the young people out there that felt that entertainment has been so sanitized and so controlled and so pre-designed that it's essentially something you can watch on speed on your iPad. So Her Private Health has a philosophy. Like always, you polarize your opinions. It's how you penetrate the mind. But then it gives the validation of the experience because it's no longer about good or bad. It's about your experience as a viewer.

46:38whether you see it in the cinema or an iPhone, it's you. You know, time is very essence. So I'm very conscious of time and I'm conscious what I'm giving out when I'm asking other people to give their time. That exchange is very important to me that it feels that I'm validating the viewer as much as they are validating me, the creator, that we're one in a way. And to do that, you need to penetrate the shield that gets stronger and stronger because we shield ourselves against the mundane of the system. And when something finally penetrates, it can either, like in Kant this year, create an uproar of anger that's out of proportions, or it can generate love and support like it's flowing with glitter.

47:35but that's when you know you have done something right you have contributed to the human evolution

47:42Simon Mayo: it sounds nick as though you almost made this film on instinct i think it's a good way of describing it because i did make the film very instinctually so would that mean that was there was obviously there was a screenplay for everyone to work with what does it what does that mean on a day-to-day basis when you're making a film on instinct like that i've always shot my films and even my two shows I created in chronological order because there were a lot of them based on what I felt or what I wanted to do if I wanted to change or if I wanted to adapt or I came with a better idea or something would happen you know I never liked this conform of being constrained to just duplicating something you know coming up with the idea developing a screenplay shooting a screenplay and then post-production which each has their steps of evolution has to, in my opinion be one constant flow it's like it's one movement and that is the only way that I get excited it's the only way that I can do what I do and I think on Her Private Hell I wanted to take that to the extreme because the film is essentially is an installation with moving images.

49:00It's also an opera. It's a horror film. It's an action movie. There's some sex, comedy, glitter, camp, a lot of music.

49:12Simon Mayo: Neon. It's an opera. Yes, on the opera and the music, what was your brief to your composer, Pino Donagio, legend, of course, don't look now and so on. What did you say? did you say to him you wanted all of that you told him all the contents that were going to be in the film go ahead and make it or what did you say usually uh when i make my films or shows i know what the music is because of my dyslexia i've always have to rely on music and um i heard private hell was the first time i didn't have the sound but i knew that i wanted to make it completely artificial, which meant on sets, on actual built sets with paint and brushes.

49:55I loved making the film. It was a tough film to make because everything was so instinctual that you had to really go inwards to go outwards. But halfway through making it, I suddenly realized, of course, all of this is an opera because it's all fake like an opera. And I love opera personally, but I always wanted to make one with moving images if I were to and this was the one, it was so apparent so once we wrapped shooting and I started looking for a composer I needed a composer that does film music and opera so you go to Italy, turns out all the composers that I knew were dead except Pino De Nagio who was in his mid 80s and retired retired but I was such an admirer of Pino's work from his obviously his days of Nicholas Rogue or was it Brian De Palme or Dario Gentoo or the many other amazing you know films he's worked on I was able to have a lunch with him in Milan and I said to him Pino how would you like to write an opera and he very easily said sure he would love to write an opera and I said okay that's great because that's what we're making.

51:12I sent him part of the script so he could read a little bit what it was about. And then I would show him the first visuals and the first cuts. And then I would collaborate with him. And I made it very clear that in an opera, you start with the music, obviously. Now we've reverse engineering. We're ending with the music. So whatever I've built, if your music doesn't serve as that and can build the bow, that movie falls apart. So I basically gone in and gamble on black, because if this doesn't pan out the way I hope, this film will just disintegrate. And I obviously get high on those kind of gamblings.

51:54I love that kind of only one ability or one option, because creativity functions in fear and danger, in my opinion, creatively at least. So, yeah, it was all on Pino. and I will happily say I think he did a masterwork and he gave the movie the blood that it needed.

52:15Simon Mayo: Recently, Nick, we had Michael Sonowski on the program talking about his new film, The Death of Robin Hood, and his next film is Death Stranding, which I believe you gave your likeness to for the character Hartman, which I imagine is a direct result of what happened to you a couple of years ago. Would that be right? Maybe you're going to be in the movie, I don't know. Well, Heart Man was created by Hideo, my friend, and I'm the eye candy, yeah, Hideo Kojima. But that was done way before my situation because Death Stranding is a game from many years ago, practically. But Hideo and I have had a lot of laughs about how me playing Heart Man and in his game actually turned out to be the Hartman in reality.

53:07So it's kind of a running joke between us. You are the Hartman. You need to be in the film. Well, I always say that I essentially am Hideo Kojima in Death Stranding because Hartman is, in a way, Hideo Kojima. But again, he's also my best friend, so maybe I'm biased.

53:24Simon Mayo: Having made this the first film for 10 years, having done some streaming shows, Nick, what next? Do we wait another 10 years for a movie? Do you go back to television? Where is your passion next? Well, I don't think that something is going back to anything. I think everything has just, again, emerged to one singular being more than ever. So I'll just go back and make another movie next year. Because I think at the end of the day, what movies do contribute is to collective experience. It's what brings us together in a room where we can all share. And I do believe in the days of technology tearing us apart in many ways.

54:05We need to remind ourselves we are humans and we need to stick together. And cinema is the most still inexpensive and most, in my opinion, entertaining way of spending your time together. And it's a great way to fall in love in.

54:20Simon Mayo: The movie is Her Private Hell. Nick Windingref, and we appreciate your time. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Absolutely. And if you see Her Private Hell, let us know what you think. Mark will be reviewing it in a couple of weeks time when it's out, correspondenceatcodemo.com so let's talk about Everybody Digs Bill Evans because we have talked about this already but it's out this week so time to talk about it again yeah so the Bill Pullman interview is in last week's show if you haven't heard it go back and listen to it because it was a terrific interview I thought he was a really smart guy so this is biograpping can I just say the sorry to interrupt the FT interview with Bill Pullman And its headline was, Everybody Digs Bill Pullman, which is, of course, entirely correct because everybody loves watching him in everything.

55:05Yeah. But also, I thought he was a very engaging interviewee. I thought he sounded like he was properly thinking his way through his answers. So biographical drama about the legendary jazz pianist. This is based on a novel by Owen Martell called Intermission, directed by Grant Gee, who's a British filmmaker who's made films about Radiohead and Joy Division. made a film which I reviewed many years ago, which I really like Patience After Sebald. I really liked that film. He won the Silver Bear at Venice for Everybody Digs Bill Evans, which takes its name from one of Evans' most celebrated albums.

55:41The script is by Marco Halloran, who co-wrote and starred in one of my favourite Irish movies, Adam and Paul. It's a film I absolutely love, and it is worth pointing out. if you're watching everybody digs bill evans although the action plays out in new york and florida it is an irish film production as you said when you were talking to bill pullman about it so opens in new york city june 1961 um bill evans is trio um he's played by anders danielson lee who is an actor musician and physician as you pointed out last week and he's not entirely sure which one of those careers he's going to pursue um they play this near perfect gig and we begin with a musical number of them playing this piece and you watch him and his bassist sort of interacting on an absolutely intuitive level it's black and white visuals moody jazzy get a lot of stuff you know looking at scott la faro's hands on the bass strings and evans's fingers on the piano there is the whole sense is that there is this bond between them Then what happens is that that number intercuts with a car crash, which kills the bassist.

56:57Evans is left traumatized because this lightning in a bottle partnership between him and this perfect musical partner is interesting. Bill Pullman said, you know, one of them was very confrontational, the other didn't like confrontation, but somehow between them, they had this synthesis. But that partnership has now been extinguished with devastating results. Here is a clip from the trailer.

57:21Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce Mr. Bill Evans. To play, you gotta be present.

57:37That's gone now.

57:42Simon Mayo: You need to find a replacement. That's not possible. To the great Bill Evans. Isn't that what all the papers say? I love the sound of his voice when he says that. Yeah, the great Bill Evans, isn't that what he has got? He has got an amazing voice, hasn't he? I mean, he is a real proper presence. Anyway, so what then happens is that Evans retreats into solitude, into heroin addiction, briefly moves in with his brother before being sent to Florida to the home of his parents, played by Laurie Metcalf and Bill Pullman, who you heard there as the father. And most of the film then plays out there, in this remote location away from New York City, away from his life.

58:31And as I said, the source novel is called Intermission. I haven't read this. Have you read the source novel? I have not. Okay. But Bill Pullman talked about how, and it's about an intermission in a musician's life. And the quote that Pullman said to you is, sometimes an intermission is part of the music, which I thought was a lovely phrase. And so just as the relationship between those two players was the heart of the music. So the beat of this intermission is the relationship between him and his father, played by Bill Pullman, and they're chalk and cheese. His dad is garrulous. He drinks too much.

59:06He sings badly in the local bar. He understands that his son is a genius, but he doesn't really know what that means, or at least he can't quite express what it is. He's got a chip on his shoulder. But over the course of the time that they spend together, he sort of softens and opens up. and you made a point in the in the interview with bill pullman that as far as bill evans is concerned his life is chaos but the time that it isn't chaos is when he's playing and one of the things that we get is a recurrent image of him not playing the piano there is a piano sitting in the corner of the room that he doesn't play and it's sort of a symbol of the the chaos reigns because he's not playing and there is a key moment when he moves towards playing and it's like, okay, this is some form of resolution.

59:58You also brought up in that interview a key scene in which the family listen to the record. And that is a really hard thing to do, to film people listening to music. I mean, you see the needle go on the vinyl, but then you watch their faces. And I think that one of the the triumphs of the film is that grant G does a, does a very good job of capturing the sight of people listening to something. And again, this kind of relates to what I was saying about Andrew Scott. It's very hard to, it's very hard to do low key. You know, there's a lot going on inside, but you're not doing anything on the outside.

1:00:36And I think he does that really well. There was another interesting thing that Bill Pullman said in your interview was that he was worried at first that, you know, it's a black and white film. it's about addiction the subject matter is quite dark is there going to be an audience for it um and it's got a scene of people listening to music in it i think we have to admit that the demographic is fairly niche i mean the film is made with a lot of love and affection its editing is very jazzy and non-linear i mean we leap backwards and forwards most of the film is in black and white but there are these throw forwards to color sections later on which in a way is kind of interesting because it shows you the future whilst living in the past.

1:01:17So you sort of know where all the individual stories are going by these other intermissions, which kind of break into the black and white. The other thing I think we do have to say is it is a tale about people who are difficult to like. I mean, none of them really know how to communicate with each other. And it's a film in which people don't communicate with each other other than musically. Actually, the most communication you see is in that opening sequence when he's playing the piano and he's looking at the bassist and the two of them are kind of, they are obviously completely in sync. And so it's, it's that weird thing about the people, the people are isolated.

1:01:51They're not communicating other than musically. Heroin addiction is a depressing thing in any, in any world at all. And I don't know whether you felt the same way, but the level of smoke inhalation and heroin injection did make me start to feel physically quite unwell because you say you think how can the human body continue to survive under these circumstances yeah it's a sickly film in that regard for sure that a perfect phrase it is a sickly film what an absolutely brilliant uh summation of it at times it reminded me a little bit of um there was a film that anton corbin made uh life which was about the period in which Dennis Stock and James Dean travel back to Indiana to do that sort of famous photograph.

1:02:40And it's, you know, that's really what happens. Apparently nothing happens, but that's quite an important thing. And this is a film in which not much happens, but a lot happens under the surface. Incidentally, it's worth mentioning that Adam and Paul, which is that film I mentioned earlier on, in relation to the screenwriter here, takes a lot of inspiration from Waiting for Godot, which of course was famously described as a play in which nothing happens twice. And I think in an odd way, that description sort of applies here as well. It appears that not much is happening, but there is a lot happening under the surface.

1:03:24And I said the most monumental moments in the movie are a scene that you talked about in which they listen to a record and a scene in which his parents upstairs hear their son for the first time in a long time start to play the piano again.

1:03:39Simon Mayo: Yeah. So the title of the book, Intermission, kind of says everything, doesn't it? Because the whole film is that intermission. It would be easy to talk this down because, like you said, there is a lot going on beneath the surface. And it's interesting that we were talking so much about Andrew Scott and the pressure film, because he'd have been great in this film as well. But if you're in the right mood, I think this is, you know, it's a splendid film. It's very stylish and they're all great performances. It's just that it is sickly and not much happens. Twice. Yeah. But that opening jazz sequence, as soon as it started, I thought, oh, well, Mark will like this bit.

1:04:20Simon Mayo: It looks beautiful, doesn't it? Thank you for thinking. And also, I'm trying to remember the last time a film spent three minutes literally drooling over a double bass player's left hand. Yeah. It's jazz bass, though, so does that count? It is jazz bass, yeah. It does count. If you do dig Bill Evans, correspondence at codamero.com, time for the laughter lift, which is a very, very welcome thing. Let's get on there and play this jazzy tune. Here we go. There's no bass here, is there? Well, there is a bass, yeah. Oh, yes, there is. dum dum dum yeah okay we just went a little bit jazzy there anyway mark um the most unsurprising news of the week go on was a new survey that says 77 percent of people are idiots and i can totally believe it fortunately i belong to the 33 percent of intelligent people yeah very good very good i could kind of see it coming but well done of course and mark did i tell you about my last trip to copenhagen you didn't we we were awaiting our luggage at copenhagen airport when a poor little old lady fainted right onto the baggage carousel she came around eventually hey that's good i quite like that mark did you catch the uh the sad news this week that the married couple who were the inventors of the brochure both passed away this week so rest in peace lee flett and his wife pamela anyway uh lee flett and his wife lee flitt and pamphlet if you want it i always say his wife pamela if that was a bit of a mess okay rest in peace lee flett and his wife pam pam you sort of swallowed the pam bit i said it was the delivery it was it was the way you tell them.

1:06:15Simon Mayo: So what's still to come? Two sequels. Yes, two sequels. Two sequels. Fall 2, Practical Magic 2. Sounds like a football score. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, that's hostage to fortune. There is plenty more. That's a threat waiting for you over in take two, such as Five Question Film Club. Three Questions, Your Majesty. And Questions, Shmestians, in which this week we're asked, what exactly is the blacklist and who has access to it? Oh, okay. I can do that.

1:06:51From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+.

1:07:21Simon Mayo: So you're not worried about hosting the whole family for the holidays? Why would I be? Wayfair had everything I needed to get the house holiday ready. What if Mike brings his cheerful dogs? My tree has tons of five-star reviews telling me how sturdy it is. But what if everyone's plus one brings a plus one? We'll see how extendable this extendable table really is. And extra chairs are on the way. Okay, what if there's a blizzard and everyone has to sleep over? Ready to go with extra bedding and towels. From guest-ready essentials to holiday decor you can trust. Wayfair delivers.

1:07:57Simon Mayo: Okay, now we get to the football part of the show. Fall 2, Practical Magic 2, score draw. Points are shared. What do you say? What are we doing first? Well, let's start with Fall 2, a.k.a. Fall 2 dead point. so this is billed as being from the producers of Obsession which is honestly not the best way to sell the film because Obsession and Fall 2 have almost nothing in common all right just to be absolutely clear if you loved Obsession and thought I want another psychological drama like that Fall 2 is not the film for you it's not saying it's a bad thing just saying weird way to sell it it is in fact the latest from German-Australian filmmakers the Spearig Brothers whose CV includes the sci-fi thriller Predestination the Saw film Jigsaw, which I quite liked, and the biographical horror movie Winchester, for which you interviewed Helen Mirren.

1:08:46Oh yes, I remember she came into the studio. She did. She came to the studio, Queen Helen Mirren. And I, when I was watching it, had to be elbowed in the ribs by Alan Jones because I fell asleep and started snoring. So anyway, this is the sequel to the 2022 film Fall by director Scott Mann and co-writer Jonathan and Frank, who together wrote this. And apparently the first film became a big hit on Netflix, as a result of which they announced two sequels, the second of which will be directed by Scott Mann. There was something about them being made simultaneously, so maybe that's already happened.

1:09:24So first film cost$3 million, took$21, thumbs up. Two women climb up a decommissioned 2 ,000 foot TV tower, and then a bit of the ladder falls away and there are precipitous consequences. Good. One of those women was Shiloh, who for obvious reasons cannot be with us for the sequel, although she does appear in flashback. Instead, we have Shiloh's sister Jax, played by Harriet Slater, wrestling with the loss of her sister while clearing out her belongings. And in the belongings she finds a scrapbook of planned challenging climbs okay she then meets her sister's friend loose played by arsima thomas who convinces her that the way to overcome her grief about the loss of her sister is get this to follow her sister's dreams to put her fears behind her and do one of these insanely deadly climbs that she has found in the scrapbook of no that's exactly

1:10:29Simon Mayo: You're the wrong lesson to learn. The lesson to learn is be a librarian. That's the lesson to learn. Don't climb anything. Stay on the ground. So the next thing you know, they're in Thailand doing a plank walk around the peak of Mount Kwon, a precipitously thin wooden walkway jammed into the rock on metal bars, which the mountain has got features like the devil's elbow, which is every bit as welcoming as that sounds. And their guide is Tom Brittany's John, who they enlist for a whopping price since the walk is closed due to rock falls, rain and earthquakes in the area. But still, they decide to go.

1:11:12Here's a clip from the trailer. OK, welcome to the ancient plank walk. Take a deep breath. One foot in front of the other. But then, flip it off. We're in. Look out.

1:11:37Get back!

1:11:45Help us!

1:11:47Simon Mayo: I'm sorry, I have absolutely no patience for them. They had all the warnings they could possibly have that this was a stupid thing to do. and if you carry on like that you're going to get yourself in trouble anyway sorry well so right as i said in the first film you know a section of ladder up the tower fell away leaving two women to survive by attempting to signal their presence to people on the ground using flares mobile phones and shoes dehydration and hallucinations make it all the more difficult in the sec in the sequel a section of plank walk falls away leaving two women to survive by attempting to signal their presence to people on the ground using a light signal, mobile phones and a walkie-talkie, oxygen depletion and hallucinations make it all the more difficult.

1:12:29So in many ways, this is a fairly by numbers rerun of the original, slightly more expensive. This was 3.4 million, but still stripped down and still, I have to say, vertiginously terrifying. Now, I need to be clear about this. I am scared of heights, right? And the directors here know how to play on the fears of people who are scared of heights. I spent large parts of Fall 2 overwhelmed by, you know what visceral clutch is, right? I don't, but I can guess what it might mean. Yeah. It's a condition that I have called it, you know, watching it was contraceptively upsetting. The script is nonsense, right?

1:13:10From the initial setup, you know, hey, get over your sister's death from falling by going somewhere that you may fall from. To the hallucinations, see previous film. The big plot twists, which are even more obvious than the mountain that they're hanging off. And then the second plot twist, which enables a third act standoff in which they basically recreate the rope bridge scene from Sorcerer, but higher up and without the trucks. So the plot is laughably perfunctory. It doesn't make the, it doesn't matter because the film knows how to make you hide your face behind your hands as people hang and generally stumble from terrifying heights.

1:13:53I mean, the three main performances are engaging. I mean, despite the rubbish writing, I still believed that these were real people in real danger, really hanging off things. And I did actually find myself at one point, I'm not proud of this. I found myself at one point whilst I was watching it and thinking, I'm not going to look away. I'm not going to look away. I'm not going to look away. And I actually said out loud it's only a movie it's only a movie it's only a movie now critics who are less scared of heights than me some of them you know have been less impressed i mean and that's fine because the writing is shonky the plotting is shonky it's all it it's it's all fantastically perfunctory like that but i once met and kissed the feet of philip petite who is the guy who tightrope walked between the Twin Towers.

1:14:38Because to me, I just don't understand that at all. And I am absolutely... Do you remember when there was the feature film of The Walk? And they did it in IMAX. And there's the moment when... Because obviously there's no actual footage. Do you remember that? I do. Absolutely terrifying. Oh, well, honestly, for a stripped-down budget film, Fall 2 had me in exactly the same paroxysms. As I say, hands up, I am scared of heights. But they knew exactly how to do it and how to go, you're scared of heights? Well, we are going to prod you like that for 90 minutes, or actually prod you like that for 70 minutes, and then we're going to redo the bit from the end of Sorcerer.

1:15:22So honestly, on a visceral level, it absolutely worked for me. I'm not proud of it, but it absolutely pushed my buttons.

1:15:31Simon Mayo: It's like if you've got arachnophobia, It doesn't have to be the greatest movie about spiders, but if there's a load of spiders, it's going to absolutely freak you out. Yeah, yeah. And congratulations, by the way, for not mentioning the V word at all. Which V word? Because Vertigo is not the fear of heights. No, it's not. No, absolutely. It is acrophobia, which is the fear of heights, but it's kind of an inconvenient truth, really, to quote another movie and a vice president from back in the day when things were fine. Okay, well, Fall 2 sounds quite fun, actually. Yes, it is. Unless you are acrophobic like Mark.

1:16:12Simon Mayo: Okay, so another reissue, another sequel in just a moment. But first of all, we have a couple of dates for your diary. Here's Norrie Valentine from Totnes Pride. There are all kinds of events happening for Pride this year, but of most importance there is a celebration of queer film happening at our wonderful not-for-profit cinema there are seven films showing across the four days of pride this year ranging from new releases like lesbian space princess and mad fabulous to queer classics like cabaret and pink narcissus that's the 24th to the 27th of september more information visit totnestpride.co.uk thanks for listening and hello to jason there you go nori knows how to do it nori valentine So again, that's totnerspride, one word, dot co.uk.

1:16:57Simon Mayo: And here is Dan from Christchurch. At the regions in Christchurch, Crying Fest returns from September 18th to the 20th, bringing cult cinema to the big screen on rare 35mm celluloid prints. Among the films, there's no such thing as a vampire, a long-lost BBC film discovered right here at the theatre on an old 16mm reel, alongside Existence, Vamp, Basket Case, Tenebrae, The Wicker Man, and many more. it's a chance to see cult films the old-fashioned way films from actual film for ticket details visit theregent.co.uk that was Dan giving it all he was selling that he was in voiceover mode it is a great venue it is a really great venue ok that's the Regent in Christchurch and as Dan mentioned it's theregent.co.uk please send in your videos to the usual address which is correspondence.co.uk dot com so fall two we've done his his the is the other sequel we're talking fall two practical magic two um the sequel that no one would have been no it should be practical magic two oh that's right because it's because if it's because if it's a go um chelsea one tottenham two no no no no no no apart from that anyway that would never happen Chelsea 1, Tottenham 2.

1:18:18Simon Mayo: So the winning side goes up. If it's a draw, it's sort of up and then down. Dad-a-dum, dad-a-dum. Practical Magic 2. And then if it was Practical Magic 0, how would you be at full 2? Practical Magic 0. 0. That's how it goes. But it's not, it's 2. Well, that is the review. So, the sequel that no one was asking for to a film that most of us can't remember. You know why you would remember Practical Magic 2? the magicians no no no when dvd was a new thing you and i both got sent a dvd player at the end of the 90s and they sent us a selection of dvds and one of them was practical magic that's how long ago it was wow i from that bundle i just remember contact putting that on and thinking that's a good film and in the space sequences wow that's actually silent and not full of the hiss from the tape which is precisely truly incredible precisely but honestly that's how long ago it was in the time since the first film came out an entire new format arrived succeeded and then became obsolete and now we have the sequel so um the original was adapted from a novel by alice Hoffman, directed by Griffin Dunn, and starred super hot pair Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock as the Owen sisters, modern day witches, with a family curse that will kill anyone that they fall in love with.

1:19:51Film cost around 70 million, and I think in total took around 90. So not a hit. Although apparently over the years, it's developed a cult following, partly because you know there is stuff going on in it and partly because people i think discovered it on dvd anyway now all these years later we have a sequel adapted from alice hoffman's 2021 novel book of magic the final book in the series apparently with screenwriters akiva goldsman georgia pritchett and kelly marcel good and directed by suzanne bia great that's quite the team and starring Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock. Wow. Back as... Sounding good.

1:20:34Sounding good. Gillian and Sally Owens, the latter of whom has been widowed due to a seemingly ongoing family curse that, despite what you thought might have happened at the end of the first film, hasn't gone away. Here's a clip from the trailer. No magic is stronger than sisterhood. Cast by fate, tested by time, and never broken. What is wrong with you? Are you like six? Are you six?

1:21:05You need to get out there, Sal. Have a little fun. When was the last time you were touched? I have my family, and I'm not receiving texts with photos that I did not ask for. Oh, let me tell you about Chad. Oh, we know plenty about Chad. Come on. Hi! Oh, look at me! You're a sexy person. You're so cute. I remember when mom would tell stories where everyone who fell in love died you don't believe we're cursed no we're owens women love us are undoing so sally's got two daughters carl kylie and antonia for whom from whom she has kept the truth of their their magical heritage although the nicole kidman character has constantly said them you don't fall in love don't fall in love just have fun play around don't fall in love but Kylie then tells her hunky boyfriend that she loves him.

1:21:58She's not been saying it, but she says she loves him. And he is immediately hit by a car and put into a coma. So the spell must be broken. Truth must be told. Old secrets must be outed. All of which involves a trip to Mary England, first to London, and then to the rural countryside in search of a way to break the curse again. Also back are Diane. I always get this wrong. Is she Weist, Weist, Weist, Weist? Has she ever starred in a film by Nick Vinding Refn? No, anyway, her and Stockard Channing, with Rachel Weisz, that's right, yeah. And none of them had vertigo, as lovable aunts Jet and Francis, who appear to have wandered in from a remake of Hocus Pocus.

1:22:45So look, it took nearly three decades to get this sequel. Honestly, watching it felt like it was taking three decades to watch it. I mean, it's 130 minutes long. It should have been 89 minutes long, maximum. It is lumbering, contrived, inert. It is a sort of hodgepodge cross between the witches of Eastwick and Harry Potter without the subversive energy of the former or the playful magic fun of the latter. And the main problem is the writing. It is written like an accountant's log of mechanical plot points and contrived character machinations. I mean, it is like watching a group of writers moving a series of somewhat shopworn chess pieces around on an endless board that just goes on and on and on with no purpose.

1:23:38I mean, these are good writers. These are good writers and the script should not be this bad. You've got the guy, Lee Pace, who picks the kind of short straw as the tattooed magical professor for whom Sally gets the hots. but his entire role seems to have been written by the people. Remember the coffee adverts from a long time ago about, oh, you know, coffee. And then what was the guy, you know, the guy Anthony thingy, you know, he was very, very charming. And he had. And he had. And he had. He died recently. He did. And he was very, very charming. He was a great screen presence. Well, this seems to have been written with a, let's do that.

1:24:21Let's do that. Every single time we see that guy, he'll just, you know, it'll be a short thing and he'll be fantastically attractive and everyone will understand he's fantastically attractive um he just stands around smoldering with or without clothes um and i think it's meant to be sexy honestly it comes off as smug but it's not his fault it's the writing's fault on the plus side i think sandra bullock has always been a top-notch comedian and i think you know she does that kind of trademark deadpan asides thing she does that really well she i mean the first time everyone really became aware of her ability for it was while you were sleeping which incidentally was a Radio 1 movie of the month.

1:24:56See it first and for free with Radio 1. And she gets all the laughs that are in the film. They're not really laughs. They're more sort of chuckles. But the material gives her so little to work with that you almost end up feeling like everything she's doing is just Sandra Bullock doing Sandra Bullock. As for Nicole Kindling, she is absolutely in Nicole Kindling mode. I mean, brittle, you know, it's meant to be racy ditsiness and it just comes off as contrived rather than anarchic and lovable. And it's a real shame because in the middle of this stodgy mess, there is a positive female-driven narrative with punching above its weight star power.

1:25:37I mean, I haven't even mentioned that Maisie Williams is in it. I mean, that's how the cast is so big. I didn't even mention that she's in it. And it is a refreshingly upbeat story about female companionship and friendship. And, you know, when we do that thing on Take Ultra in which we read the comments from below the line on YouTube. And it's always like, oh, he's so woke. As long as something's written by a woman or directed by a woman, he will say it's great. He's got the rogue mind virus. Well, if those people were telling the truth, I would absolutely love this because it ticks all of those boxes.

1:26:09The problem is it just feels like a box ticking exercise. It doesn't feel like an organic drama. So firstly, below the line YouTubers, who are the rogue mind virus? No, that's not what happens. I wish it was the case that just because something had a bunch of values to which I aspire was good. Unfortunately, it isn't the case. And I so much wanted to like this. And I so much didn't.

1:26:39Simon Mayo: that is it for this week this has been a sony music entertainment production this week's team dom eric josh and heather the redactor was simon pool in take two we're directing you to the overflow car park for more chat about current film releases don't forget people of bristol and it's environ we'll be at the brizzle beacon on december the 6th tickets are on sale via the link in the show notes you can get both takes ad free you just search comodome patron and join the church mark what is your film of the week well i think largely because andrew scott is terrific and kerry condon is terrific and the story is always worth revisiting pressure we'll be back next week and another take has landed just alongside this one so we'll talk to you soon

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