THE END OF OAK STREET: “Why does it exist?” + SIAN CLIFFORD on LADY

0:00Now, Mark, I don't know why all these trendy podcasters need to sell such tat in their online shops these days. You'd have thought the show would have been enough for them. I mean, look at this tea towel. Simon, I think that's our shop you're browsing, isn't it? Oh, so it is. Actually, those Kermode and Mayor director's chairs are very nice, and it's all incredibly slick and easy. That's probably what confused me. That's because it's powered by Shopify. Shopify is where you go to start your business. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, which means our top production team can concentrate on, well, whatever it is that they do.

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2:22Hello, Mark. Hello, Sanj. I'm fine, thank you. I've got, I was just looking at the script here. Oh, don't do that. Oh, it's too late. I've seen it. And it just says Bonomi ensues. Yeah. Do I start the Bonomi? Yeah, yeah, that's your job, Sanj. As guest presenter, regular returning guest presenter, your job is to ensure that Bonomi ensues. Off you go. Okay, right. All right. Okay. Well, pat on the back. Mark, how have you been? You've been abroad, haven't you? I have, but you know how I've been because we've seen each other more in the last two days than we have because we've been in screening rooms together.

3:06It was like we went on a date. Because we went to see two of the movies that are out this week. And one of them, because A24 aren't signed up to the FDA, they don't do normal press shows. So we went to a preview screening at the Everyman in Belsize Park. We did. And we sat on adjoining sofas. Yeah, we had a sofa each. We did. I suppose if you were looking at it in date terms, I think it's interesting that we didn't choose the same sofa. No. Well, they chose it for us. They decided that we were both one separate sofas. Nice screening room though, wasn't it? It was really, I haven't been there in ages and ages, certainly not since it had sofas in it.

3:48That's the first time I've been there, actually. I mean, that's kind of weird, isn't it? When you think about, as a kid, going to the cinema, the idea of a sofa was just so far from it. These were the days, of course, when you had a smoking section. I remember kind of at the Odeon in Hounslow West, the right-hand side of the screen was smoking. Yes. Left-hand side was strictly no smoking. Yeah, which is just hilarious. In fact, everyone was smoking. Yeah, exactly. Because, as I've always said, having a smoking lane in a cinema is like having a weeing lane in a swimming pool. You all end up swimming in it.

4:22It doesn't matter where it's happening.

4:27Yes, but also what we didn't cover in our kind of two dates was you being away. You were in France, weren't you? I was in France. I was in Provence doing the Provence Arts Film Festival, which is where the previous, previous show had come from because of the weird way in which we do this. last week's show was actually recorded before the show that went out the week before but yes i was out in it was a provence arts film festival which is it's a documentary film festival last year the subject was documentaries about artists this year was documentaries about music so it was great i introduced epic the elvis presley in concert film which i know you and i both love um ian and jane who made uh the marion faithful broken english doc were there kevin mcdonald was there with one to one the john and yoko film um it was really good it was really really really good and then um and drove around for a little bit afterwards, which is why I have sort of the vague hint of a suntan because I was in the south.

5:20Although I suppose actually if you've been here, it's been Scorcio anyway, isn't it? Yes. I mean, you know, a hint of a suntan having been away means nothing anymore at the time. Really currency at the moment. And as I say, just as we're about to start recording this, I've just turned off Radio 4, which had warnings that today is going to be 37 degrees. I mean, it's like the day the earth caught fire. I expect Michael Caine to make a brief early role, you know, early career cameo appearance as a policeman. It's bloody hot. It's bloody hot. You're only supposed to blow the bloody planet up. I think this is the hottest summer on record now, I think, in the UK.

6:01Well, how are you managing with that? Have you got air conditioning? No, no, I haven't got air conditioning. I mean, it's, you know, I looked at various kind of hacks that came up on Instagram, which was, you know, you put ice bottles of water in front of a fan. Somebody else said you point the fan out of your window. What? I don't know. That's maybe to call the pigeons or whatever. Oh, no. I'll tell you why that would be, because that would be the theory is that it's drawing the air. That's it, yeah. From your room. Yeah. I wouldn't do that. No, I didn't. I didn't bother with that. It just seemed so kind of counterintuitive.

6:37that I couldn't be bothered with that. But yeah, it's kind of, yeah, especially at night, it's horrible when you kind of, you can't sleep, it's too hot, and yeah, you just get a toss and turn, really. My version of air conditioning is walking around in a Jonathan Richmond t-shirt and complaining loudly. And incidentally, Jonathan Richmond will come up in our discussions, because one of the films that you and I went on a date together for involves Jonathan Richmond's girlfriend, not her, the song Girlfriend, which was one of my, it was a great moment. Cool. Okay. Well, we'll work our way towards that moment, I think, from now.

7:14So what are we going to be looking at this week? Well, we're going to be talking about Tony, which is the new, well, I suppose it's described as an origins film for Anthony Bourdain. We'll talk about that. The End of Oak Street, dinosaurs in suburbia. And incidentally, we were discussing whether or not saying dinosaurs was a plot spoiler until we saw both the poster and the trailer which are full of dinosaurs so i think we're safe and lady which is a very anarchic uh low budget comedy with our special guest sean clifford the star of that film we'll be talking to her later on and in take two mark uh with the ongoing aardman reissues the pirates exclamation mark in an adventure with scientists exclamation mark or as it was called in america pirates band of Misfits and Sunny Dancer, which is actually really, really interesting.

8:09It's again, a low budget Brit pick, but a really terrific movie. So if you're not already subscribed to Take Two, you don't want to miss that. So sign up now. Absolutely. And you can get Take Two ad free by heading to our Patreon page. Just search Kermit Omeo Patreon and you'll find us. Mark, let's kick off with some emails. Dear Peter Two and Peter Three, I smiled when you mentioned the Orpheus Cinema in Bristol. I worked there as a teenager more than 25 years ago, around the time I started listening to you both. So it's an underdog in your competition I'd like to go to bat for. Okay, go ahead.

8:43The place was ruled by the wonderfully eccentric Mrs. Miles and her husband, Harold. Harold ripped tickets, muttered obscenities, and joked with customers while Mrs. Miles ran the box office with military precision. They resisted every attempt to modernize the cinema. I still remember the disgust on her face when I built an Excel spreadsheet that cut the nightly stock take from 30 minutes to three. We were forever running out of letters for the marquee. Harry Potter became HP, Lord of the Rings became L-O-T-R, and eventually things descended into nonsense. I distinctly remember trying to fit the Englishman who went up a hill and came down a mountain onto the sign and ended up with something resembling E-N-G-L-15-H-M-A-N.

9:30It does look vaguely like Englishman when you read it. The projection booth was run by a succession of characters, including one projectionist who regularly fell asleep and forgot to start films. On more than one occasion, we'd have to wake him up or fix the wrong film being shown. One of my favorite perks was controlling the foyer music and subjecting unsuspecting customers to whatever I was listening to at the time, mostly Black Sabbath. We got a few complaints, but more people asking what the music was. For all the chaos, what I remember most is the love of cinema. Children spilling out of spirited away, audiences cheering the return of the king, and even quietly holding the hand of an elderly woman who'd had to leave a screening of the pianist.

10:1425 years later, the Orpheus is still there, still independent, still half the price of many multiplexes, and still worth visiting. I'll be at the Bristol show in December. If the Orpheus somehow pulls off the impossible, I'll be a very happy man. and then a bunch of letters hello to Jason Isaac Zeta that's from Steve so that sort of suggests you're going to be in Bristol as well this December month yeah because we're doing the Christmas show which we have traditionally done in showbiz London but we're going to Bristol which is great which of course is where the good lady Professor Hur indoors is from and big fan of Bristol obviously we've been talking about Aardman for the last few weeks because of all the Aardman reissues one of Bristol's finest so yes come along to see our Christmas show, which is going to be in Bristol.

11:00And we are really, really looking forward to doing it. Do I need to, oh, I'm supposed to read you the special stuff. Christmas Movie Spectacular is back. Sunday the 6th at the Beacon Hall. Ticket information can be found in the show notes. Can I just say on the subject of the running out of letters to do the film titles, I've told this story before, but it's a formative story from my childhood. When we used to get the bus to school, the bus used to go through Elstree and there was a cinema with a huge big hoarding. I think it was called the Elstree Studio 17, a massive, massive hoarding. And every Monday morning, the bus would go past the cinema.

11:33And for weeks, letters were disappearing off the hoarding. So you'd get like the titles of movies, but with letters missing. And we just thought they were falling off, but they weren't. They were being stolen by local rapscallions so that in a follow-up move, they could then replace letters in an actual title of a film. And their greatest triumph was the morning, the Monday morning about, you know, 7.30, when the bus went past the Studio 70, which appeared to be showing a Beatles documentary called I Want to Hold Your Rear.

12:10I don't know it's always a tricky thing isn't it with kind of petty crime because if it's if it's witty there's a part of you that goes oh go on then go on then you're rapscallions that's what you are you're not little thieves no you're ragamuffins shall we have our first film Mark yeah and it's the one that we saw together not at the Everyman but in what used to be Warners and Theobald's Road which is actually now of course home of the of the very podcast which we're doing so the end of oak street um this is uh written co-produced and directed by david robert mitchell who made a splash with myth of the american sleepover made a name for himself in horror with it follows which i loved and then in my opinion at least torched his career with under the silver lake which i think is a kind of fall down as terrible as what happened to richard kelly after donnie darko so uh the end of oak street stars Anne Hathaway and Ewan McGregor as a suburban couple, Greg and Denise Platt.

13:10Their marriage is going through a rocky patch. He keeps ducking out family activities because he needs to pick up some extra shifts delivering pizza, and he's secretly sipping whiskey down in the basement. She, meanwhile, has written a book that she has not told any of her family about, but she's talking to a kindly neighbor about. And the book is clearly autobiographical. It's a story about a young woman or a woman who clutches a suitcase of stuff to her chest, ready to make an escape whenever she can. It's basically a way of her saying she wants to escape from her life, even though she says it absolutely isn't.

13:44As for the kids, they appear to be living in a Steven Spielberg movie. They ride their bikes around the neighborhood. They get into scrapes with the other local kids who chase them on their bikes. And then there's a family dog which keeps digging into the neighbor's garden and then getting into his lawn and pooing on his lawn. And it's all playing out in the 1980s, which of course is thought by many people to be the kind of, you know, the classic Spielberg parade. Then one night something happens. There is a huge booming sound, a big flash of white light. And when the family wake up, they discover, and as I said, this isn't a plot spoiler because it is all over all the trailers and all the posters, that their neighborhood has been overrun by dinosaurs.

14:20What's happened? How has it happened? How will they survive? Here's a clip from the trailer. I think that our neighborhood, our house our whole street has moved now the hell is that even possible get out of there run what the hell is going on get inside now I just heard a gunshot

14:49God's not gonna let us die here Rick you only go to church at Christmas and now you're telling the kids God's looking out for us What about the people who are out there getting eaten? Precisely so. So, faced with the imminent dinosaur danger, the family have to do the thing that we know they have to do, which is they have to learn to put aside their differences and work together in order to avoid becoming dino food. So, we watched this film together in the same cinema, although we were seated quite far apart from each other because you sort of sneaked in and I didn't see you. So I couldn't actually tell your reactions during the film, but it's a mishmash of different elements.

15:29I mean, the most obvious one is, of course, Spielberg. It's produced by J.J. Abrams, who in many ways is a kind of modern day Spielberg tribute act. There are the bikes, the suburban streets, the dysfunctional families beloved of Spielberg. There's the rampaging dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. There's a chase sequence in which you don't see the dinosaur. or you just see the things it's knocking over behind a fence, which is very reminiscent of some of the sequences from Jaws in which you don't see the shark, but you see the, you know, you see the barrels or you see the things that it's knocking over.

15:59And as I said, the whole thing plays out in the early 80s, which is kind of key Spielberg thing. And there's a score by Michael Giacchino, which is absolutely channeling John Williams. Lots of kind of triumphant harrumphing and then sprinkly, sprinkly, tinkly, tinkly, a little bit of magic. The main difference between this and Spielberg is that the whole thing has got a slightly less wholesome feeling. I mean, even amid the dismemberments of Jaws and Jurassic Park, the Spielberg stuff all kind of felt family friendly, which this doesn't. I mean, it feels a little, I don't mean this as a criticism, it feels a little scuzzy.

16:38I mean, it cost 85 million, which is a little bit more than the original Jurassic Park cost back in 1990, whatever it was, but it's a third of what Jurassic World Rebirth costs. So it is comparatively cheap for a dinosaur movie. I mean, unless of course you're talking about Roger Corman's Carnosaur, which famously cost less than a million, but then had rubbish dinosaur effects. I'm going to ask you what you think of it in a minute, but I'm just going to, Before I do, I'm going to say I thought there was a touch of Donnie Darko in the explanation of what actually happened. And of course, it's an explanation that makes no sense at all, but that doesn't matter.

17:14I mean, it makes more sense than Under the Silver Lake, in which the explanation was just, sorry, what? Some of the script is almost parodically shonky. I think Ewan McGregor's performance as a troubled American dad borders on parody and I think Anne Hathaway appears to be in a different film because she gives it 110 percent she does the grief the angst she does that thing about looking genuinely horrified which of course is a great Spielberg trope before you show the audience something terrifying show them somebody looking absolutely terrified and then they'll buy into it and I think she does that brilliantly um at times it felt to me as i mean i mentioned carl and so it felt like like a bit of a kind of big budget roger corman movie as opposed to a smaller budget spielberg movie there's the cats and dogs who survives rule that obviously gets invoked um and it's also got it's got a bit of a nasty streak which i quite liked i mean it's 12 it is top end 12 despite the fact that the the bbfc description of it is um It's 12 for moderate threat, violence, injury, detail, infrequent stronghold, moderate threat.

18:27There's dinosaurs running around biting people's legs off. I mean, I think that goes above moderate threat. I mean, it's sort of all over the place. And the fact that it's... I found bits of it genuinely thrilling. I found bits of it kind of genuinely alarming in a sort of Larry Cohen, cue the winged serpent kind of way. And I did find myself feeling genuinely uncertain as to who would survive, particularly after one key moment in which it's like, okay, well, all the gloves are off. But as I said, I think it is intentionally sort of trashy. And then we came out of the film and you said, I have one question.

19:12Why does it exist? so give me your take well a little bit yeah because I think you know there are a couple of shock moments in the film and that's fine but then that's like a jump scare equivalent for me is the thing you go oh but beyond that I didn't know who it was aimed for I mean I really like Ewan McGregor and I like Anne Hathaway and they are in different films though aren't they Sange they're in different movies They are in different films, yeah. But also, you know, it was things that perhaps bothered me, wouldn't bother anyone else. I mean, I kind of go, fine, it's the 1980s. But, you know, was that in the 1980s, was it kind of normal for kids to wander around with bows and arrows?

19:59I mean, it was things, did they? You couldn't wander around with a bow and arrow. Actually, who? Who wandered around with a bow and arrow in the 80s? He's a kid. Yeah, didn't you have a bow and arrow? And didn't you have like a sheriff's holster or something when you were a kid? There was just a thing. When I was about four, yeah. Oh, I see. Okay, fine. Not when I was kind of early teens or whatever age you're supposed to be. Okay. And so there were loads of things like that, which just felt really, I don't know. It's not quite, you know, AI has written this, but it was a little bit. Okay. It's a bit like you'd put it through sort of, you know.

20:33Just to be clear, Sanj, in a movie in which an entire suburban town is transported somehow and overrun by dinosaurs, your problem is that one of the kids has got a bow and arrow. That is the main problem I have. But it is kind of, I just feel that if you inputted all this into some sort of weird algorithm, it would give you what you have in the film. What do you think you would have asked the algorithm to give you? I mean, what would you have asked AI to create this? What's the question? It would be, could you give me something that's quite Spielberg? Give me something that's got a couple of shocks in it.

21:12Give me some family problems. And I'm not too bothered about how this came about and how they get away. And then it would go, yeah, about that then. And this may be a conditioning thing as well, because I think it's very difficult now to think about dinosaurs without referencing Jurassic Park. Of course. It's obviously such a game changer. And I thought even the dinosaurs in this looked a bit weird. Oh, really? As if they kind of said, yeah, I mean, some of them were kind of furry. And I thought, I'm just not used to that. I'm used to kind of like scaly-skinned dinosaurs. Okay. Rectillion. Right, but you don't mean they look bad as in the special effects were bad.

21:55What you mean is that the design of the dinosaurs, that they were rendered perfectly fine, but they were just a bit weird dinosaurs. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And again, I would put that, if I was writing it, I'd put it into an algorithm saying, I don't want them to exactly like Spielberg's dinosaurs as well. But just to be clear, you know, how that happened and how they get out of it, don't worry about that. Did you not have a good time watching it? I sort of enjoyed it, but it's, other than the things that, I mean, it just felt very pedestrian. it just didn't I mean all of those things that are set up like you know Anne Hathaway's problem and and Ewan McGregor's problem and the kids problem you know none of them felt real they all felt a bit sure I absolutely agree with that I agree with the he's got a problem how do we know oh look he's drinking whiskey she's got a problem how do you know oh she's written a book about a woman who wants to escape from her life with a yellow suitcase um yes that I agree with but I did think it was also, it was like the kind of thing that the film really wasn't interested in those things.

22:57It was just, it was like he woke up in the morning, went suburban dinosaurs. All right, fine. Let's do suburban. Oh yeah, no, I've got to write some stuff about why the characters are important because of course they're not. With the exception of Anne Hathaway, who, despite the fact that she's reading a frankly shonky script, is giving it some, you know, it's like Meryl Streep in Mamma Mia. She plays it like Hamlet, even when it isn't. And I think Anne Hathaway's performance is the thing that keeps it grounded. I did think, I mean, I love Ewan McGregor, but it was slightly parodic, his performance, wasn't it?

23:32It was a bit. And I agree. I think Anne Hathaway was great. And as I said, I like them both as actors. But yeah, I mean, it's not one that I'd watch again. Would you? I don't know. I mean, I enjoyed it a lot more than you did. I mean, I think it's essentially rubbish, but you know, but, but, but, but, and I, and I know there is a difference between Roger Corman making$1 million rubbish and somebody making$85 million rubbish, but I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it and I didn't find certain sequences in it genuinely kind of exciting. and there is at least one moment in it, which isn't just a jump scare.

24:08There is at least one moment in it in which I went, blimey, I didn't expect them to do that. Although it has to be said that they then do work towards undoing it. So, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is kind of, you know, Spielberg. I was sort of surprised it was a 12. I thought I, it looked 15 to me, but then, you know, kids today don't know they're born, do they? Well, that's the end of Oak Street. That's not a great title, by the way. No, although it is funny that the title appears at the end of the film. Yeah, that was quite funny. And it says, the end of Oak Street. And it's like, oh, that's quite well done.

24:39Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you rapscallions. Okay, still to come after the break, Mark. Still to come after the break, we have the box office top 10 and we have our very, very special guest. And that is Sian Clifford, who plays the titular character in Lady.

24:59Hey, Mark Kermode. Fancy a fun quick fire quiz? I thought you'd never ask. Great. How do you protect yourself from spoilers? We never watch the end of the film. Well, a bit impractical, but fine. How do you protect yourself from getting wound up by noisy cinema goers? There's no need. I'm a very tolerant man, as you know. How do you protect yourself from getting bored of The Exorcist? It's impossible. Anyway, shall we start this fun quiz? What's more fun than being well protected? Okay, is that part of the quiz? I'm doing the questions, thank you. How do you protect yourself from online scams?

25:32Ah, finally, a sensible question. NordVPN's next-gen antivirus. Blocks, scams and phishing before they reach you. Fake texts, dodgy links, your account is locked, emails, same app as the VPN, one tap. The biggest protection in the game. Correct, upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app. Head to nordvpn.com slash take to get an exclusive NordVPN deal plus four months extra risk-free.

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26:41Now it's time for the box office top 10. At number 10, US number 13 is Obsession. And this is currently, it's 13 weeks on release, Sanj. This is its 13th week of release and it is still in the UK box office top 10. That is extraordinary. for a really, really small, really thoughtful, smart horror movie. Incidentally, this subject will come up again in take two. It's just, it's terrific that it's done as well as it has. I'm really, really pleased. At number nine, US number eight is The Invite. The kind of film they just don't make anymore, a sort of adult comedy like they used to do in the 1970s.

27:20And I really enjoyed it. I thought the script was sharp. I thought the performances were really well done. I thought it was terrific. Yeah, I've seen this one. Oh, tell me, tell me. Yeah, no, I enjoyed it. It kind of reminded me of, I don't know, sort of Witt Stillman, those kind of films that he made. That's a very high bar, Witt Stillman. Yeah, Barcelona, Metropolitan, all those kind of things. You know, there's a love of language and words. It felt like a play. Carnage was the other thing it reminded me of, but I enjoyed it. The play of Carnage, the play of God of Carnage, as opposed to the film of Carnage, which is terrible.

27:54The play is brilliant, isn't it? absolutely brilliant film is awful that's the invite at number 8 in the UK is Ice Cream Man and I have an email here go ahead dear mint choc chip and bubble gum child 2 partner and I saw Eli Roth's cinematic masterpiece Ice Cream Man as a scream unseen at Odeon yes I'm obviously joking it was a mess a complete shambles truth be told my initial reaction was to for the first time ever walk out when the title card showed. However, Mark's words of always go in with an open mind echoed in my mind. And Lordy, did I regret it? This was a few, well, that's reasonably squishy clips extended to a movie length that greatly outstayed its welcome.

28:41The use of AI was apparent. I suspect Eli used it to generate the script. Write a script that's weapons mixed with Elm Street, mixed with Halloween 3. Then edit it, then create effects. A joke about autism and one about dad, played by Eli, wanting to leer at high school girls in bikinis both make an appearance. Ghastly in every way. Avoid, avoid, avoid. Tinkety-tonk and down with this kind of thing. That's from Gerard. It's interesting. I mean, this has been probably Eli Roth's worst received film, although it is by no means his worst film. I think it's very much mid-Eli Roth. It has all those things that you've just cited.

29:18The AI thing, some people had said, why didn't we comment on the AI thing in our review? At the point at which we recorded the review, Eli Roth hadn't done the interview in which he said there was no AI and then he said there was AI and then he walked it back and then he said later that the AI may have been involved in the animation sequences. So that was wild though. You know, to me, it's interesting that people have disliked it as much as they have. I just thought it was very middle of the road, bad taste, squishy horror. And it's not in the same level of awful as Green Inferno. And I think that when Eli Roth is awful, he is really, really awful.

29:53And I just thought this was, you know meh is very very vanilla there's a very very uh good and balanced review of it by kim newman in sight and sound which i was glad to read after i had done uh after i recorded my review um in which i think we sort of both feel on the same page but i think he enjoyed it more than i did but um but yeah no it is it is interestingly enough probably eli roth's most critically maligned film and people are saying things like worst film of the year i don't think it is that but it's interesting that people absolutely detest it at number seven us number six is moana again an awful lot of really hostile responses to moana and again my feeling was well of all the completely unnecessary live action remakes this is the one i disliked the least but that's probably because i like the source material so much i mean i like moana and and the live action moana is of course we didn't need it we already had the we already had the cartoon but it's got the same plot.

30:52It's got the same stories. And of course, in the form of Dwayne the Rock Johnson, it's the same. But I guess, again, people very, very hostile towards it. Maybe people have just finally got fed up with the Disney remaking their animated back catalogue in inverted commas, live action. At number five, US number five as well is Minions and Monsters. I loved Minions and Monsters. And whilst I was in Provence, one of the things that we did was we went to the train station at La Cietat, which is where the Lumies films, you know, train arrive, don't guard, don't station, whatever it is, you know, do I see that?

31:31And the good lady professor, her indoors and I, her outdoors as it was in this case, did a little film of us standing on that platform as a train came in behind us. And there is a joke about that film in Minions and Monsters, which I think is the most cinniliterate film I've seen this year and is definitely, definitely, definitely one of my top films of the year. At number four, US number three is Toy Story 5. Done terrifically well. Kind of, I mean, I didn't like it. It's the first one of the Toy Story movies in which I actually thought, okay, I've had enough of this now. I thought four was a step too far, but they got away with it.

32:08But we have had many people write in and say that they went with their kids, they enjoyed it. And that, you know, the message about, hey, maybe physical toys are, you know, more, there was a news story just this morning about how it's important to get people off screens and get them back to playing with real toys and using their imagination. I agree with that. I just didn't think the film was particularly good. At number three, US, no entry so far, is Paw Patrol, the dino movie. Now, I confess, this is the one that I missed because when I was away in France, this was the one I didn't catch up with.

32:41However, it is Paw Patrol. We all know Paw Patrol, so then the other ones, and it's got dinosaurs in it. So two dinosaur movies you're going to have to choose from, either the one that Sanj's question was, why does this exist? Or Paw Patrol, the dino movie. Yeah, well, if Paw Patrol, dino movie has a kid with a bow and arrow in it. You'll be cross. That's a great thing for me. Number two, US number two is the Odyssey. Obviously, we've talked a lot on the show about the Odyssey, including a spoiler-tastic discussion in last week's take two. So still lots of correspondence coming in, some of which you can hear in the Overflow car park in this week's take two.

33:20and a very number one is Spider-Man Brand New Day. Well, you leap in with an email, because I know that I can see from my script that there is a blank. I have to just explain to people, when there are emails, they put them on my script, but they blank them out so that I can't read them in advance. That's literally, they treat me like a child. Proper redaction. Yeah. Gosh. Spider-Man Brand New Day is number one here, and in America here is an email. Dear Mark and Simon, very, very LTL third-time emailer. On Sunday, my family saw Spider-Man Brand New Day at our local view. Enthusiasm for the film became clear when we had to book seats in row C, further forward than I'd usually choose.

34:00But this position let me do something I'd never done before when the BBFC card came up, to look backwards at the audience. I saw 300 excited faces of all ages lit in silver, sharing a moment of anticipation. When my son asked what I was looking at, I wasn't able to answer immediately. Spider-Man had made me cry before the Marvel logo had even appeared. All four of us loved the film, but my main joy was feeling cinema's going to be okay. 2026 has been the year movies really needed. Big films hitting big again, and smaller films from young voices, like Obsession and Backrooms, returning 500 times their budget.

34:39And if one of those young voices wants to make anything non-horror, I'll be right there in row C. I'm more hopeful than ever that years from now, my kids will be taking their own kids to explore new worlds through cinema. Hello to Jason, Toby, and everyone else who's still buying tickets. And that's from Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim Gomesall. Not Tim nice, but Tim Gomesall. Nice for Tim, that's what you're thinking, yeah. Happy movie going, Dad. Here's another one. Simon and Mark, long-time listener, first-time writer, coming to you from Dublin. I went to see Spider-Man Brand New Day twice during its opening weekend.

35:13The film seems to be generating a lot of positive reception from fans, and I'm glad that people are enjoying it. But much like its predecessor, 2021's No Way Home, I believe that this film will later be scrutinized. So to beat the hype train, I will say that it may be up there with homecoming for the best MCU Spidey flick. But even on a second viewing, the final act is a drag. The first issue is that, much like Mark, I too found the more character-driven moments to be the most impactful and entertaining. and when it devolves into wham bam thank you ma 'am action set pieces I clock out. On my first viewing I went by myself and on the second with friends and I was kind of dreading getting to that part as it takes up so much time in the final act.

35:54The fight with the ninjas in particular is a dread to re-watch. The second is that the mawkishly saccharine speeches that are supposed to deter the main villain are simply badly written platitudes that aren't convincing as a motivator. Generally, I think the final act is driven by outdated and overused cliches that you have guessing what will be said before it's said and have you rolling your eyes when you're correct. I did enjoy the film, and it's the most cinematic-feeling MCU Spidey film thus far, but I think it's far from a masterpiece. Spider-Man 2 is yet to be dethroned, and that's from Aaron Kavanagh.

36:29It's interesting with the amount of criticism and very detailed criticism that Aaron had that he went back to see it again. yeah absolutely weekend yes and he will have added to the fact that as of uh a few hours ago spider-man brand new day has crossed the 1.7 billion worldwide it's on course for 2 billion it is going to be one of the biggest selling movies of all time you said when you said it's number one it's very number one 65 i mean the box office figures are astronomical and that is to be celebrated. I mean, I have many reservations about the film. I enjoyed it, but I, you know, I think there are things about it that work and things about it that don't work.

37:10And I generally kind of liked it, you know, with, I said, with reservations. But the level of success it's had is breathtaking. And when you look at a box office chart with the Odyssey at two and Spider-Man Brand New Day at one, taking this kind of money. I mean, it is... Simon always says this. Anything that gets people into cinemas is to be celebrated. Have you seen this, Sanj? Yes, I have. Yeah, I kind of enjoyed it. I don't think it's my favourite Spider-Man film, but I kind of... I did enjoy it. And I think something I said to you when we came out of our date night movie, which is that, you know, the last time we had a Christopher Nolan film we had the summer of Barbieheimer and nobody's kind of done a similar thing this time and so I did suggest Toy Oddy Man 5 as the three films that have absolutely dominated the summer so far.

38:15Toy Oddy Man 5 is very very good but it doesn't quite roll off the tongue like Barbenheimer does it? No it doesn't well because there's an extra film in there so that's why problem yeah that's the problem okay right do that do that construction with just the odyssey and spider-man so what would that be that would just be the oddy man oddy man oddy man okay the oddy man okay and that works quite quite well i think that since the kind of money that odyssey and spider-man doing i think it's just the oddy man so last year it was barbenheimer and this year it's oddy man although because they didn't have the same opening day they didn't have the same you know go and see them both together but uh i mean i feel the same way as you did it's it's okay It's okay.

38:53Yeah, it's better than okay. I mean, as a cinematic experience, I thought it was good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not perfect. It's not Spider-Man 2 by any means, which I agree with the emailer, still remains the high point, but it has taken a staggering amount of money. Yeah. Well, that's your top 10 for this week. After the break, we are going to be joining and chatting to Sian Clifford, who plays the title character in Lady.

39:25Hello, Mark Kermode. Hello, Simon Mayo. Quick question, what's your autumn signature dish? Why are you asking? Because I suspect the answer is a takeaway. That is deeply unfair. But is it? Sometimes it's delivery. Well, perhaps it's your pans that are holding you back. Food sticking, pans burning, uneven heat. That's unusually generous of you. Gordon Ramsay uses Hexclad at home and in his restaurants. You could try them. They combine the searing performance of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick. So you get great cooking results without the usual cleanup headache. They're dishwasher safe and easy to clean.

40:04Plus, every Hexclad product comes with a lifetime warranty, so they could genuinely be the last pans you'll ever buy. Upgrade to Hexclad and make everyday cooking easier. For a limited time, listeners get 15 % off with our exclusive link at hexclad.co.uk slash take. That's H-E-X-C-L-A-D, hexclad.co.uk forward slash take. Offer excludes bundles and other items already on sale. Support the show and let them know we sent you. From the walls of Troy to the Tower of London, from Himeji in Japan to the Maginot Line in the Second World War, we've built fortifications for millennia. I'm Dan Jones and in my latest book Castles I trace 3 ,000 years of human history looking at these captivating buildings.

40:55It's an epic story of defiance, endurance and imagination. Castles the latest book from me Dan Jones available as an e-book, audiobook and in hardback at all good bookshops.

41:14Our guest this week is one of the UK's most compelling and versatile screen performers, Sian Clifford. From her unforgettable BAFTA-winning turn as Claire in Fleabag, to a series of highly acclaimed roles across television, film and stage, Sian has built a reputation for bringing intelligence, wit and emotional depth to every character she plays. She stars in a new film, Lady, and you can hear our conversation with her after this clip. I'm Lady Isabella. Welcome to Ravenheight Hall. Everyone's saying I'm the aristocracy's answer to the Kardashians. Hat! I did do a bit of team modeling. I have so many friends.

41:53I'm gone. Sam's here with his crew. I'm directing the film. Boo! Jesus Christ! Action! It's better when we do it together. Filming me as I embark on a journey of artistic discovery. Ha ha ha!

42:13Who is Lady Isabella? Why did you pick me? No, you look so pretty. Great, come on, guys. But if you leave, then who's going to film all of this? Did you just lock the door? That's really creepy. Isabella, what's happened to you? I can see through my hand! That was a clip from Lady, and I'm delighted to say we're joined by its star, Sian Clifford. Hi, Sian. Hello. How are you? And where did we find you this morning? Somewhere exotic? London, so yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, it is going to be 35 degrees or something today, and we've got an eclipse, so... Oh, gosh, it's all happening, isn't it, today? It's all happening out there, yeah.

42:51Okay, right. Well, something to look forward to tonight. So please tell us about the film, Lady, and a little bit about Lady Isabella Ravenheide. So the film is a mockumentary that takes a very surreal turn. it's sort of centered around this character Lady Isabella who dupes a film crew into her home to film her every move under the guise that she's struck a deal with Netflix but it comes clear pretty quickly that well her plan unravels basically and she's pretty lonely she's pretty narcissistic and we find her literally as the film crew are arriving and she welcomes them into her home. It's interesting you said narcissistic, but she kind of refers to herself in some justification as self-centred at one point, which is kind of subtle difference.

43:47Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday because in relation to her and, you know, what is the difference? And basically I'm doing an interview in character as her. And so I was coming up with responses along with our brilliant writers. so she gets accused of being self-obsessed which I think her argument would be that if you're self-obsessed you you don't think about anyone but yourself but if you're self-centered then you're choosing yourself for the benefit of all others so it's like putting the oxygen mask on yourself first. In terms of the feel of it it did feel like there was a lot of improvisation.

44:28Was that the case or was it very tightly scripted? There is improvisation in there. I mean, I'd have to look back at the script, but yeah, I got bolder with that as the film went on. But it also really, really helped me sort of become more confident and find her to just commit to that and go for it. So there's improvisation even in the very first things that we shot, because, you know, you're still finding your voice, aren't you, at the beginning of any project? And I mean, the script was absolutely incredible. But Sam, our director, and who co-wrote the script with his partner, Miranda, they really encouraged me to just let it fly.

45:10And because she's a character that she does have verbal diarrhea, I mean, she does not stop talking. I sort of knew that in order to have a real purchase on her, I just had to have so much in my back pocket to come up with. So it's sort of, it's part of the illusion of a mockumentary, having access to that and having that freedom to use that. But also I think it's, and this is testimony to your performance, your wonderful performance in the film, but it's that, as you said, she does have a sort of verbal diarrhea. So the moments in the film when she goes quiet are actually really powerful. Really?

45:51And so, yeah, they are. Because the thing is that you get used to a certain sound and a tone and you go, there's an assumption that goes with that. And then there are various revelations in the film that make you feel possibly otherwise. But also the fact that she then can't find the words or doesn't have the words and she's gone internally. I thought we're really well handled, I think both in terms of script and performance. Thank you. I suppose it's also the advantage of having a director who has co-wrote it. They can make those decisions on the spot. Exactly. And also they can be made in the edit, you know, the things that they can do to sort of stretch those moments or, yeah, and again, because we would shoot in quite long sequences, it was a bit like doing a play.

46:35The discovery that would happen whilst we were doing things was so helpful. And then you could sort of pick and choose what was working. and then we would rejig and then go again and run the full sequence. So I just wanted to say, because also part of Lady Isabella's charm is her affinity with performance art. And there's lots of different bits of performance art in it, which are very funny. So does that mean that we've got probably another film's worth of performance art somewhere? Oh, I wonder. I feel like that most of them have made it in there. There is one that we did with eggs, where I say an egg is not a period, which was born from a discussion at lunch, would you believe?

47:26I mean, I don't know why it didn't make it. And maybe there's others actually that I've forgotten. It was such a sort of intense 15-day shoot. We did live and eat together for that entire period. it was such a compact little unit that uh it is all a bit of a blur may i leap in here with the with the nerdy film question hello sean um so in talking about influences for the films the two for the film the two things that were cited was the figure of daphne guinness whose father was the eldest was it was connected to the mitford family and maritally connected to mosley and a whole bunch of weird stuff like that.

48:11And the other thing is the Maisel's documentary, Grey Gardens, which is about these upper class, it's a mother and daughter, upper class women living in this very run down mansion because they have fallen upon a hard time. So those two things were cited as possible stylistic influences. The other thing is the elephant in the room, which is in the trailer and is in the clip that we played at the beginning. So I think we do have to address it is it's a mockumentary in which the central character starts to disappear not metaphorically but literally so just contextualize all that on the one hand you've got the mazels and you've got Daphne Guinness and on the other hand you've got the incredible disappearing woman yeah I think it was really important for Sam uh that it wasn't just a straight-up document mockumentary like he really wanted it to have something that made it different and also went deeper into the character.

49:11And there are sort of all sorts of layers going on, some of which get revealed much later in the film, which I won't spoil. But I think from what I've heard him, the way he talks about it, that's where that came from, is he didn't just want it to be her bouncing around her house. He wanted it to go much deeper than that. He was like, how can we get under the skin of this woman? I mean, there's an irony. You know, this person that is desperate to be seen and driven by that sort of real cultural need that's in the ether to, I don't know, connect in some way with the world around her. well it was that was the choice was to make her invisible and how did when you were first reading the script when you got to the bit which went and her hand is disappearing did you just go oh yeah no it's fine of course because I would have thought that that's the moment in which you you go okay hang on this is not going to work I leaned in I was like yes you did um it was one of those moments to the script where you just think, okay, this is...

50:33And I think I maybe spoke to you about this before, Mark, but initially what came to me was actually this sort of incredible summary, breakdown, not only of what the film was, what it was about, and who was going to make it. They sent me a full breakdown of how they were going to do it. So they, like, right from the off, It was the most sort of organized document I've ever received on any project. I now know why. It's because their resources were so limited that the planning had to be, I mean, it was watertight. But that also made me feel safe. So I was like, oh, they absolutely know what they're doing.

51:17And they'd already done VFX testing. All of those things were sort of in place before I even came on board. and they showed me footage prior to my signing on, all of that stuff. So I sort of knew that visually it would work. I knew that there were certain limitations that you had to basically create a really clean line around the skin in order to do that. So I was so game for that. And also as an actor who would rather not be on camera, I know that's absolutely preposterous thing to say, but I absolutely, I think where Isabella and I differ is that she is a performer and I am an actor and I hide behind my characters and I'm an introvert and I've been told by every director I've ever worked with that I physically turn my body away from camera involuntarily.

52:17I don't know I'm doing it. I mean, it drove the last director I worked with to absolute madness. because we were, you know, we're running out of time. And he said, I just need you to just face the camera. Which you think is kind of a fairly basic requirement. It's a fairly basic requirement. I mean, I genuinely do not know I'm doing it. So I don't think anyone since the Lumiere brothers has been given that note. But I think with her, she's the opposite of that. That's all that she wants. And in some ways, the invisibility, actually, that kind of drew me towards the part. Because there was, again, a safety in that.

53:01I'm like, oh, wait, I can perform and not be seen. That was like, the freedom in that for me was extraordinary. Yeah. Just saying also that, I mean, there were lots of themes within the film, actually. I mean, it is very funny. But one of the ones for me certainly was this fear of being irrelevant. and finding a reason, finding a purpose and finding a value. And I wanted to ask you, this is just one actor to another. I mean, it's easy to feel relevant when you're working. And so, you know, how do you cope with the fallow periods now, especially with social media now playing a much bigger part in people, I don't know, assessing actors?

53:47Yeah, well, I stay offline. I came off during COVID. I sort of deleted everything. It's changed my life, is the truth. If you remove yourself from that noise, it's a legitimate and very speedy way to protect yourself. That's really helped. I also, you know, I have a strong meditation practice and yoga and all of that. I'm really deep into kind of self-inquiry myself. You know, before Freebag happened, I was ready to walk away from acting and I was getting into producing and it was going pretty well, actually. And I was also running a side hustle of teaching meditation and stuff like that. And I thought, you know what, I could have quite a nice life doing this.

54:39And I'd kind of destroy friends of mine in a way that, um, where their whole identity was, was caught up in it. And I think I learned fairly early and maybe it's because the second I graduated, I got a temp job and I just was like, you know, and I didn't grow up with a lot of money. So I think my attitude was always to just, to just work and make sure that you can, you know feed and clothe yourself and keep a shelter over your head so I sort of went straight into the workforce and that also keeps you busy I think for me it's finding all the things in your life that nourish you beyond your job when your job is sort of a vacation all of which is a really useful way in to I suppose for you as the actor kind of accessing Isabella P.S.

55:37And the things that you're avoiding are the things that she's drawn to, you know, for her reasons. Yeah. And I empathize. I totally see this sort of the maelstrom that we're caught up in. The last two things I just wanted to mention was it's great that in the credits that Ricky the Raven gets credited as Walter De Niro. Walter De Niro. Walter De Niro. And can I say that this was one expected. I always love these moments, actually, when I'm watching a film. Your delivery, simply, of the word Spielberg absolutely made me hoot. So congratulations on that. Thank you. Oh, gosh, I have to watch it back.

56:23So thank you, Sean Clifford. Thank you for your time. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. So lovely speaking to you. You too. Thank you. and that was Sian Clifford and now Mark's review of Lady yes I feel I have space to speak it was really great hearing two actors having that conversation which is the kind of conversation that a critic cannot get involved in but okay so just to recap in case you're just jumping straight into the review so Lady a mockumentary written and directed by Samuel Abrams making their feature debut Sian Clifford as we heard there is Lady Isabella, the aristocracy's answer to the Kardashians, being interviewed or profiled at her home by Laurie Kinston's Sam, who's this wannabe filmmaker who believes that he is making this film for Netflix.

57:14I bet you can't believe how lucky you are making this film for Netflix. It's going to be filming Lady Isabella as she embarks on this journey of artistic discovery to turn my suffering into spectacle. And so the aim is to discover who is Lady Isabella, And the answer appears to be that she's a posh fantasist with no friends who is in the process of, get this, organizing a talent competition that she wants to enter and win. So that is how absolutely egocentric she is. And Sam soon realizes that he's been taken for a ride, that this thing isn't backed by Netflix. And then, as we've said, it's in the clip and it's in the trailer, something happens, which is that she starts to disappear.

57:57like literally disappear her hand starts to become invisible in the clip you heard i can see through my hand and then suddenly the whole project becomes interesting genuinely because it's it's something that's genuinely out of the ordinary so the whole thing about what's the film about on the one hand yes it's this mockumentary about this this character you know are they self-obsessed or are they self-interested is that and if this it's something into which Sian Clifford throws herself with abandon. I mean, the early scenes when you're first meeting Lady Isabella, it's just like, wow, that is really, really going for it because she's just talking, talking, talking all the time.

58:38It's absolute nonsense. But then when the disappearing starts to happen, she becomes kind of introspective. She says, this has happened for a reason. I've been leading a shallow, meaningless existence. I deserve to disappear. There's a very funny conversation in which she tells somebody, I'm disappearing. And they say, well, listen, many people of your age think that they're not saying, no, no, I'm literally, literally disappearing. But of course, what that tells you is that the disappearing is about something. I mean, the thing that it put me in mind of is, well, if you think about Lily Tomlin in The Incredible Shrinking Woman, which is itself, you know, a parody of The Incredible Shrinking Man, or that whole idea about the invisible, mind, the disappearance of somebody either shrinking down, because at the end of shrinking man, there's the whole thing about, I realized that I was still part of God's creation, no matter how small I was, or the invisibility thing.

59:33People don't see you. People literally are just looking straight through you. So it's a metaphorical thing about something that is happening to that person, but it's amplified by the fact that that person is not just somebody who wants to be seen, somebody who wants to be seen on television and on film in the same ways. Do you remember that film to die for with Nicole Kidman in which there's the line about if you're not doing if no one's watching what's the point of doing anything so it's particularly sharp because it's got a very modern edge to it so it's not just about um you know a person of a certain age realizing that they're no longer the center of everyone's gaze but it's also to do with that happening in a media obsessed age in which everybody apparently wants to be on camera all the time and I think you know on that level it is a film about being lonely and isolated in this particular age and the most important thing to say therefore is it's also a comedy and it is quite often laugh out loud funny i mean i think her performance is just one of the most out there performances i've seen and she leans into all the you know the eccentricities of it it was funny because she's talked about the u.s office and parks and recreations being two of the greatest shows ever made um she obviously played a role in fleabag she has a role in ballad of wallace island here she's absolutely center she's front and center all the way through i thought it was lovely in the interview when you were asking her about that thing about you know how you deal with all the social media and everything and i'm saying well as an actor i actually don't like to be seen on camera so the idea of playing somebody who's literally invisible was actually really funny so i think the thing about this is it's it's phenomenally ambitious for a film made in fifth shot in 15 days pardon me i'm obviously the editing everything else would take a lot longer it's it's really really ambitious and it's aiming very very high and bits of it don't work bits of it are kind of you it's it's sort of ramshackle and messy but i would always rather see something take a big sweep and hit some of its targets and occasionally fall over than see something play it safe.

1:01:40And whatever you think about, Lady, it does not play it safe. I think that since I saw it, I thought about it quite a lot. I saw it a while ago because I did an onstage with Charlotte at the BFI. And the more I think about it, the more impressed by it I am. And when I saw it, I was laughing at it and thinking, this film is mad. This film is completely mad. I can't, I'm not quite sure how they, you know, how they got to this point. But the more I think about it, the more I think that there is real method in that madness. I think hats off to the filmmakers for that level of ambition. I should say the screenplay is by Sam Abrahams and Miranda Campbell Bowling.

1:02:23And it is very, very well written. And I get the impression that anything that looks like it's completely improvised is always better written than you thought it was because it takes very good writing to make something look like you're making it up on the spot. And I think it's got ideas in its head. And I think it is all over the place, but in a way that, I mean, End of Oak Street is all over the place. The difference is End of Oak Street is all over the place at$85 million, you know, and with enough resources for people to have fixed all the issues. With this, it's small and scrappy and made on the fly, and it's ramshackle and just a little bit genuinely crazy.

1:03:05Some bits of it don't quite work, but the bits of it that do work more than justify the bits that don't. Like I said, I'm trying to think what else is out there like it, and I'm struggling to think of anything. Because obviously you can make the comparison to other mockumentaries. We've had loads and loads of mockumentaries. That's fine. But I'm struggling to think of one which does that and then so seamlessly melds it with a science fiction idea about somebody disappearing. What did you think of the film? I really enjoyed it. I mean, I do think it's bonkers. And I think what you were saying in terms of the chaos of it sort of made sense in terms of the chaos that Isabella brings to the inside.

1:03:49She is chaotic. Yes. An agent of chaos. agent of chaos and and as i said in in the interview you know for me it was about um being relevant it's about aging it's about having a purpose and that you begin to realize is true of both characters is both of them coming from this desperation to feel relevant you know somebody wants to be seen as a great filmmaker because then he'll be relevant and for her as well given and all the things that she's gone through, that lack of focus that she has around her is kind of, am I relevant anymore? And so that I kind of enjoyed. And I do think that it's always tricky, actually, as a performance, when you've got to play a caricature, in effect, someone larger than life, it's always a really tricky thing in terms of getting that tonally right.

1:04:41Yeah. Because if you simply exist as a caricature, I think, you know, that works. There's a reason why TV comedies are half hours. It's because beyond a half an hour, it can't support caricature. It's very difficult to. And the examples that there are of ones who've made films started off in a half-hour format, in Mr. Bean and stuff like that. And so I think that she was very deft in the way that she played that caricature at the beginning. It was kind of slightly unlikable, I think, for me. Deeply unlikable. Deeply unlikable. A rich Aristo who is setting up a talent competition that she wants to win.

1:05:23Yeah, it's a kids' talent competition, incidentally, that she wants to win, that she's going to enter and win. But all of that thing, you know, lying about it being a Netflix deal and all the rest of it. so it's really kind of it is testament to the writing and to Sian's performance that the moment when that begins to shift when you start to see what's under her skin or not see her skin at all actually does work quite well so yeah you reminded me of something else when you said out of focus do you remember Deconstructing Harry in which Robin Williams plays a character who has lost focus and literally becomes out of focus.

1:06:08And there is a similar metaphor thing happening. I mean, there it's played entirely as a gag about being out of focus. But that thing about, I think I'm out of focus, I think I'm invisible, I think I'm shrinking. All those ideas that science fiction films have reveled in, and horror films for years and years and years, because they mean something. There is a similar thing here, isn't it? That her being invisible is like him being out of focus in deconstructing Harry. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the, also, you know, documentaries where the filmmakers are involved in the story. Yeah. Because I was trying to think of what, it was Nick Broomfield did a lot of that.

1:06:45He was always there with his boom. With his boom. And also the other one I could think, I thought was Man Bites Dog. Yes. Where the kind of crew get involved. And that's always, again, another tricky thing because you go, who is the subject of this now? Yeah. And if I got one minor gripe with the film, which I did really, really enjoy, and I'd definitely watch it again, was that when you do a mockumentary, I think you have to follow the rules of the documentary. And in the rules of the documentary, you can't preempt the action. You have to follow the action. And so one of the things in this that happens, and this was my gripe between Spinal Tap 1 and 2.

1:07:26Was it somebody with a bow and arrow? change do you know what in this film someone with a bone arrow I would have absolutely bought go on go on it's the fact that and this was the difference between the two spinal taps is the first one absolutely followed the rules of the documentary the second one once you start having reverses you start going okay that's not a documentary anymore and so the only point in this and it is a very minor crime was that suddenly there was a point at which I started to think how many camera crews are there there's one with her in the room there's one with him outside they're both following each other so that was the one thing where I kind of thought okay, that's not quite the documentary kind of law I get that, but I would say that if that was your one minor gripe about a film about an unlikable initially unlikable posh Aristo who wants to enter a kids talent competition and then discovers that she's going invisible if your main criticism is how many documentary crews they're meant to have there.

1:08:28I think that means it's worked a lot better than anyone would have expected. I mean, my assessment of it is none of this should work. And the fact that it does is quite remarkable. I'm in complete agreement. There you go. That was the lady. Okay, so now it's that time where I feel like my esteemed career in comedy has all been leading to this point, where I demonstrate my performance prowess in delivering the very best in overheard dad jokes. So skipping merrily without a care in the world before tripping over a sleeping, dachshund and face-planting in front of your boss. Yes, it's time for the laughter lift.

1:09:02Oh, dear.

1:09:08Oh, hey, Mark. Hello, Saj. What? Hello. I said Simon, Saj. You did? I know. It's okay. I'm so sorry. It's a compliment. It's a compliment where I come from. Saj, go on. Hey, Mark, what's the difference between a bad hunter and a constipated owl? I don't know, Sanj. What is the difference between a bad hunter and a constipated owl? A bad hunter can shoot but can't hit. Hey! Hey! Thank goodness I didn't have to spell that out. Mark, did you hear that the famous singer Sting has been kidnapped? No. Yeah, I mean, the police have no lead. Hey! Hey! This is actually quite high quality, that joke. Hey, Mark, I watched a BBC documentary on how ships are kept together.

1:09:54Did you? Riveting. Okay, less good. Less good. You kind of peaked with Sting. The runway was the shoots but can't hit. And then Sting was the high point. And then the riveting was like that. Everyone's a critic. Yeah, literally in this case. still what's to come mark well our date night tony okay we'll talk about our date night after this

1:10:38and we're back or didn't go anywhere depending on who you are okay so we have an email here dear Barabrith and men menin menin menin Welsh fruit loaf and butter long time listener first time emailer BA Ons and M-A-R-C-A in illustration five-meter swimming badge. Five meter? I mean, that's three splashes, isn't it? I mean, you can jump back. Oh, you're a child, like a baby.

1:11:10I started listening to your Witterings in the mid-90s when we could put Radio 1 on during AA level art on Fridays. I've followed you in your different forms ever since. Something seismic has prompted me to get in touch, and it's particularly good news to at least one fellow listener. This week at the National Estadfod. Icededfod. Is that it? Icededfod. Icededfod. Icededfod. Icededf. Is it the, is it? Icededfod. Yeah, I mean, I think technically we, yeah, like that. But, you know, the goodies said Icededfod, and I'm sticking with that. Don't you remember? It was the old goodies joke about it comes from two Welsh words.

1:11:45Iceded, meaning bored, fod, meaning stiff. Icededfod. Of Wales, held in Hlantud, in Pembrokeshire. It was announced that an official version of Star Wars A New Hope, dubbed in the Welsh language for the first time, will be broadcast on the Welsh language channel S4C at Christmas. As a Welsh-speaking Star Wars fan, I am giddy with excitement. And upon hearing about it, I immediately thought of your Danish correspondent who is learning Welsh and how this will be fantastic learning material for him. Please pass on this news. So long and thanks for all the Jason. P.S. I haven't seen it myself yet, but please don't forget The Christophers.

1:12:25And that is from Sean. Very good. So, diach and far and body da. Very good. And can I just say, just to stave off the inevitable wave of criticism, the good lady professor, her indoorsy's family are Welsh. So I'm making the goodies I Steadfod joke with love, not with malice. Just the very idea that anyone could make a nice Steadfod joke with malice. No, it's just such a strange kind of like conception. Okay. Well, thanks again, Sean. And should we have another new motion picture, Dr. Kermode? Yes. So this is the one that you and I went to see together at the Everyman in Belsize Park, in which we both had our own sofas.

1:13:08And it was like it was an early evening date, wasn't it? We would have gone out for a meal afterwards, but I had to go and do a meeting. And I said, you're going to go for the train. You went, no, I'm just parked outside because you are so showbiz North London. It's like, no, I've just... Well, it's only 15 minutes from my house. I know. It was quicker. I know. But also, yes, in classic date kind of terms, you know, it's kind of how about a dinner and a movie? And so we just did the movie. Just did the movie, yeah. And then you left me. I left you. Yes, I'm sorry, I abandoned you. Anyway, okay, so Tony.

1:13:41So Tony is a... Well, it's described as a biographical comedy-drama. um it's directed by matt johnson who directed co-wrote and starred in um well most recently nirvana the band the show the movie which we had reviewed on the show just uh just a few weeks ago original script by todd bartels and how it was featured on the 2024 blacklist the blacklist is the list of the best as yet unproduced screenplays which has become actually a kind of fast track for screenplays to get produced um the finished script is currently co-credited alongside johnson and matthew miller with that original script so 70 set story follows a young man known variously as tony only his mum calls him anthony or flaco which is spanish for skinny apparently although we hear in the movie that it's spanish for a bunch of other things that they're making up he's played by Dominic Sessa who played the central gangly awkward student in the similarly 70s set The Holdovers which I really really like so it this seems like a strange thing to say and I don't know whether you agree with this as an actor I think that he has I think Dominic Sessa has a very 70s face do you know what I mean by that I do yeah and do you agree with 70s early 80s yeah yeah there's just there's just something of that era about his face it's it's not it's not a criticism.

1:15:04It's just something about the quality of him. So we meet him, Tony, apparently acing an interview for a writing scholarship. He's got a dumb idea for a coming of age novel, which he pitches to a panel who he thinks he has super impressed. He thinks this so much that he tells his parents that he's got the grant already. And he tells this girl that he's trying to impress that he's got the grant. And when it turns out he hasn't, he skips town and heads off to Provincetown on Cape Cod, where the girl of his dreams to whom he lied about the scholarship and played by Amelia Jones, Nancy, is spending the summer.

1:15:40So he gets there. The place is basically, well, it's Amity, isn't it? And Jaws is playing in the local cinema. So that's, you know, that's the time setting. He's got no plan. He's got a lot of front. And somehow he convinces the girl of his dreams that he's a writer. And then he also visits and gets thrown out of, and then gets taken into a restaurant run by local restaurateur, a chef, played by Antonio Banderas. Here is a clip from the trailer. Okay, so I'm just going to walk you through the basic vision. It's a coming of age story. Excuse me, I need to speak with you. Didn't you punch a hole in the principal's door?

1:16:18You know, a lot's changed since high school. I'm a writer now. The truth is I'm about to get this huge writing fellowship. Hello? Mr. Bourdain, the committee has decided to go with another student for the fellowship.

1:16:37I need a job. You work in the kitchen before? Sorry. Yeah. We open Wednesday to Sunday. Start at 11 a.m. What time is it? That means that you are here at 10.45. 11 is late. Anyone late is fire. You know I can cook too. The kids say he's a cook, chef. He's not a cook. I'm a writer, but I said I know how to cook. And that's the central thing. I'm not a cook. I'm a writer, but I know how to cook. Incidentally, that trailer features See No Evil by television from the Marky Moon album. And I don't remember that being in the film. Do you? No. No. I don't. What is in the film is Jonathan Richman's girlfriend.

1:17:19If I were to go to the museum, fine art in Boston. First I would go to the place where they keep the stairs. And I don't know whether you noticed, but when that happened, I let out a little squeal of delight because I was just so thrilled that that was in there. So along with being taken in by, not taken in in a bad way, taken, looked after by Antonio Banderas' chef, he's also taken under the wing of Leo Woodall's womanizing, more accurately, I think predatory, Sal. He was a young man who literally cuts notches on the doorframes of the young women he beds. And there's a gag about him knowing the state regulations for statutory rape.

1:18:03So, you know, he's a predatory and unpleasant character. And that's basically it. It's the story of the summer that changed everything. The summer in which this young man discovers his true passion, which will turn out to be cooking. He learns to love and respect his fellow man and woman. You know, he's obnoxious for most of the movie. But by the time we get to the third act, he has a kind of, you know, a sort of a coming of age revelation. And most importantly, he discovers who he really is. So it is on one level, it is a non-superhero origin story, which literally, and this is not a plot spoiler, the last line of the movie is, name?

1:18:45Anthony Bourdain. And he might as well have said Batman or I'm Spider-Man. I mean, it's laugh out loud funny that, isn't it, Sanj? Yeah, it was a kind of, the name is Bond. Anthony Bourdain. So the whole thing leads up to the point that he becomes Anthony Bourdain. Now, the plot is inspired by Bourdain's own account of working in Provincetown, Massachusetts, which he recounted in Kitchen Confidential, which is a very celebrated memoir, which I have not read. And the reason I say this is because I knew very, very little about Anthony Bourdain before seeing the film. In fact, just before the film began, I said to you, what do you know about Anthony Bourdain?

1:19:32And you said, well, you know, he was very famous, very celebrated, took his own life, you know, and that was it. And that was pretty much all I knew. If I hadn't been told that just before the film began, I think that one of the real chubby moments in the film might have looked a bit different, which is there is a moment in it in which Antonio Banderas' character, he says, what's that picture? And he says, oh, well, that's a picture of this chef who had to prepare a really, really splendid meal. And when the fish that he had ordered didn't turn up on time. He took his own life. Yes, he was preparing it for Louis XIV.

1:20:16Yes, yeah. He says, sorry, but why? Well, because the fish didn't turn up. Now, if you now know, which I know everybody else knows this about Anthony Bourdain, but I didn't because I know I'm culturally quite stupid. That did seem like a very, very obvious kind of, you know, big moment in the film. Would I have noticed it if I hadn't known before? And in a way, it doesn't matter because the thing is, I think everybody else who's going to see this film will know. They will know about Anthony Bourdain and they will know about his story. So I think it's safe to assume that those alarm bells are not just clanging for me.

1:20:49As for the rest of it, and I'm really interested to hear what you think about this. I thought it was an odd mix of ingredients. There is a bit of the bear in there, in the kind of, you know, the pressure cooker environment of working in the... it's not just pressure cook, it's kind of existential pressure cooker world of the kitchen, isn't it? Which we have seen in, it's something that's become part of the cultural landscape. You know, when you're working in a kitchen, everything is completely manic. And also it's a matter of life and death. It's like the joke, you know, football is not a matter of life and death.

1:21:23It's much more important than that. There's a bit of burnt. And do you remember that film with Bradley Cooper, which starts with Bradley Cooper getting to the end of shucking a million oysters to pay penance for his single 10 ,000 oysters, however many oysters it is. So shucking oysters has become a bit of a trope for the coming of age thing in chefing. And there's a whole bunch of stuff here about him learning to shuck oysters. And at the beginning, he can't do it. And then he does do it. Then he stabs himself. It becomes a self-harm thing. But then it's something that you learn to do. There's also a bit of Elvis's clam bake in it, which I think, sitting next to you, I was not alone in noticing that when they were talking about having a clam bake, I did think I was going to need to turn to you and go, don't sing.

1:22:05Don't sing, Sanjus. I was very close to bursting out. You can dance in your seat, but don't sing. There's also a casual mistreatment of marine life, including shooting tuna fish with a gun, like that scene in Jaws in which they try to shoot the shark and the lobster stuff, all of it, which is kind of authentically unremarkable in a very 70s way. Here's what I think. I think it's impressive to see a film in which so many of the characters are unlikable for a lot of the movie. I mean, whether they're mopey, whiny fantasists or raving, misogynist chauvinists, it is a reminder that the ethos of a film is not the ethos of the characters in the film.

1:22:46A film's morality or a film's approach to life is not defined by its characters. It is defined by how it approaches its characters. There are some very good needle Drops, as I just mentioned, which endeared me very early on. There are some terrific films. I think Antonio Banderas has never been better. I thought he was amazing. And I think it's his English language career best performance. For one thing, I could have just drowned in his voice. I mean, there's just something about the way that he's got, he's like Morgan Freeman. He's got one of those voices. You just think, just talk to me, just keep talking to me because the sound of your voice is amazing um and i think his character is the real beating heart of the film i think his character is the moral voice of the film i think his character is what the film is really centered upon um i also think it's ultimately insubstantial but maybe that's the point i did laugh out loud at the final line about the origins thing i don't think you were meant to but it is funny isn't it It is.

1:23:54Go on, tell me what you think. I kind of, I largely agree with you. I mean, I think, you know, as a standard coming of age story, which is what it is, I guess. Yeah. It's one small chapter in Antoine Bourdain's life. Yeah. It kind of worked fine. It was fine. And I think that what made it compelling were the performances. I did think, I think Dominic Sess is really watchable. Yes. But also I completely agree with you. Antonio Banderas he's just this guy but also it was very difficult for me not to think any moment he's going to go bus in boots it's the same voice that's a very good impression do that again Sanj it'll never come back but yeah he is the beating heart of the film and in a way just within the confines of this story I didn't, at least for me, I didn't sort of see why Anthony Bourdain fell in love with food.

1:24:57Is it Bourdain, not Bourdain? Oh, Bourdain? Bourdain, you're probably right. I don't know. I'm sure you're right. I think, I'm sure he said Anthony Bourdain. I'm sure it was Bourdain. But it was, yeah, you know, so there wasn't that, the food wasn't shot in that kind of way, that even in The Bear, that you get a sense of the food being a character in some sort of way, you know, Babette's Feast or any of those things. Anything which, you know, where you go, the love of food is essential to it. And I wasn't absolutely sure what it was about the relationship between him and Chef. I don't think he's given a name in the film.

1:25:41No, he's just Chef, isn't he? Why that kind of becomes an inspiration to him. I wasn't quite clear about that. And something I read that in Kitchen Confidential, Anthony Bourdain described what appealed to him about that first kitchen, because there were a series of kitchens in real life, which they've condensed into one, is that they were like a band of pirates. and that's what he loved about it. Suddenly there was order in that. And so I didn't get quite the clear sense of that. I mean, you know, afterwards when I read Pirates, I thought, oh, okay, well, you've got the kind of, you know, scallywag pirate and you've got the dutiful one and you've got, you know, somebody who's a bit foul-mouthed.

1:26:24Do you know what I mean? It's kind of that band of pirates thing. I kind of went, oh, okay, afterwards, but it wasn't clear purely from the film for me that that was the appeal. because he gets stuck there, as opposed to him being, I don't know, mesmerized by it. But otherwise, you know, overall I did enjoy it. I have to say, just going back to something you said, which was that if I hear a squeal of delight in a darkened cinema, it's not something I'm going to investigate.

1:26:58Just saying. But as far as the film itself is concerned, do you agree with my it's kind of incidental is there something oddly about it yeah honestly I think that for me the most compelling thing, the most compelling reason to see it are the performances yeah which are very good which are fine yeah good okay well that was Tony that was Tony there's just time for a quick what's on where we ask you to tell us what we should go and check out. Here's Steve from apparently the UK's most easterly film festival. Hi Simon and Mark, this is Steve inviting you to join us for the Sunrise Film Festival which takes place from the 20th to the 23rd of August in Lowestoff Suffolk.

1:27:48Discover 263 films across 52 separate screenings curated from over 1100 international submissions including including shorts, feature films, music videos, and virtual reality. For more details, visit sunrisefilmfestival.co.uk. See you there. Thank you very much, Steve. And that's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Jen, Eric, Josh, and Heather. The producer was Dom, and the redactor was Simon Paul, who is having a lovely time in Sicily. In take two, we're directing you to the Overflow car park for more chat about current film releases. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, there is plenty more waiting for you over in take two, such as five question film club.

1:28:34Three questions, your majesty. Three questions and questions, in which this week we're asked, why is it that low budget indie or indie-esque films that break through into surprise mega hits are almost always horror films? Perfect one for Mark. And don't forget people of Bristol and beyond, Simon and Mark will be at the Bristol Beacon on December the 6th. tickets are on sale via the link in the show notes. You can get both takes ad-free. Just search Kermode and Baskar Patreon. Yes. And join the church. Mark, what is your film of the week? I genuinely have no idea what you're going to say. No, no.

1:29:10Here's the thing. Firstly, that Bristol accent was terrible. That's right. I'm just flagging it up. I'm just saying I'm not from Bristol, but... No. That's fine. Okay. You were absolutely... Honestly, you're Anthony Bourdain, It was your Antonio Banderas was perfect. Everything else was fine. And then he just dropped it with a bristle thing. So film of the week, it's a difficult one. I mean, I enjoyed End of Oak Street much more than you did. And I think therefore, since I'm being even handed, that's not going to be film of the week. And I think as far as Tony's concerned, we both thought, hmm, man.

1:29:48So my film of the week, because I think for the fact that it takes such a big swing and Sian Clifford really gives it some welly, let's go for Lady. I am in complete agreement without a squeal of delight being involved. Simon, hooray, and Mark, hooray! We'll be back next week. Hooray!

1:30:17Hey, first time? Love those sneakers. Thanks. Thanks. Depop. Got them cheap. Oh, yeah? Okay, downloading. There's loads on there. Wow. Wish I'd had this last week. I just paid full price for mine. Oh, right? And you can't get these ones anywhere. Find what you want for less on Depop. Oh, sneakers worn once. Excellent condition.