The UK's #1 Nut Butter Started In A Shed: Pip Murray | Ladies Who Launch

0:00You entered a competition against, oh you're already laughing. I know what's coming. Against around 3 ,000 applicants and won three months of rent-free accommodation in a garden shed. I'm going to have to put context on this because that makes me sound really weird. This was in my really early days. So this was pre-launch and I was setting up the business. One of my mentors at the time sent me this link to this competition and it was called Escape to the Shed. And they were giving one startup the platform to basically work rent free in their office. And they were setting up a shed in their back garden and picking up one.

0:38And I quit my job an hour later. I moved out of my nice flat in North London. I moved in and it gave me basically three months runway. And that's when I did a crowdfunding. And like away I went. And that was it. So it was the most random thing I've ever done. Pip Murray is the founder and CEO of Pip & Nut, now the UK's number one nut butter brand. From market stores and crowdfunding to supermarket shelves and major growth, her journey is full of moments that look like luck from the outside, but were really built on taking chances, spotting opportunities and putting herself in the right rooms. So let's find out why she's a lady who launched.

1:27A light bulb moment launches your business, but consistent habits power it every day after. Today's episode is powered by Starling. Whether you're side hustling or scaling, Starling believes that with the right mindset and tools, anybody can be good with money. It's not about complex number wrangling or losing days to admin. It's creating a smart system of financial habits that can give you active control and build your confidence so that you can focus on being a founder, not the finance team. Search Starling Business to find out more about their monthly fee-free business account. I love starting these conversations by reading notes because this to me is just so, so impressive.

2:08You went from selling around 200 jars on a good day at mortby street market to more than 1.6 million uk households and counting buying pip and nut every year yeah wow yeah it blows my mind actually to think that many households are like eating it every morning it is you are part of their day you're part of their morning what do you think is the one moment in between those early days of like i said a good day being 200 jars at the market to those big numbers and you know almost reaching two million people's homes what was there one big moment that was really a gear change for you yeah I mean ultimately there's loads of tipping points like what Pippinat's been going 11 12 years now um but I think for me probably one of the earliest tipping points was when we first got our first national listing I think which was Sainsbury's it was in our sort of first year and you know it was still like relatively fresh out the blocks and at that point like we were and I was still hugely hustling to try and get like listings and still relatively small retailers at the time and it's funny because I often think like a buyer has no idea how crazy it is when that email lands in your inbox when someone confirms like from a retailer that big that you have won the listing and I remember I can still remember like where I was sitting in the office who was sitting opposite with me who sent the email I still send the the buyer who who listed us for the first time an email every year like letting him know that we're still doing really well and stuff but it the impact that had on the business because suddenly we went from being you know largely a London kind of yeah small startup to suddenly being distributed like nationally all around the UK and you're able to access people in a way that we just didn't have um so yeah the power of sometimes just like that one email for me was just I I still reflect on just like what a major it gives me chills because I just know that and the power and you kind of think when they send that email and it's so lovely that you're still in contact with that buyer but when they send that email do they know the level of sort of that life-changing moment do they do they know that or is it to them it's just like everyday business I just think it's just like literally every everyday business but for you especially something because to get to that point it's normally been like you know in my case like three years two years setting it up one year hustling at the start of the business itself yeah for you and it and it means so much to you you know when you're creating something from scratch from like something which was an idea which you believe in that you have purpose so when someone validates it like that and unlocks what is such an amazing opportunity to kind of scale the business it is I don't think you can possibly fathom what that means um but i do try and like i labor it every time we meet any retailer i'm like thank you for listening us thank you for giving us the charm this is huge yeah well let's go back to that because the pippinut story starts in 2013 and you were training for a marathon yeah so tell us all about how this played out yeah so at the time i was training for the paris marathon so you know I was 24 25 I was really keen runner I still run a lot today but back then I was a little bit faster than I am I'm a bit more distracted um but you know running for me was like always my go to loved it as a sport and I think with it I think largely I'm I'm actually just quite a greedy person like I love to eat like it is my my joy in life is food to spend most of my money on food and yeah I guess running was just like an excuse to obviously you know from fitness point of view but also you're always hungry too of course you can't be not hungry when you're running yeah and so for me like nut butter and um you know i guess i'm always thinking about like what do you eat pre-post run um and often i go to because it is filled with protein like it's rich in good fat like it's tasty it's like an easy thing to eat i'd always have like nut butter on toast so it was like my go-to and i think it just it was a product that i loved like i think it has um one of those sort of a bit like love or hate it yeah like people love it or maybe just don't get it me too and I was like out of the jar but back then you know most of the products that I could buy as like a consumer was just often quite processed filled with palm oil there wasn't really much in the way of like a brand that really spoke to me as a consumer and yeah it kind of got under my skin like and um it was quite literally actually on some of those like long training runs I would like think about the idea and like it would go around and around and around and I think a lot of the reason for like eventually like tipping into it was just like I just had this underlying belief that there was something in it and that if someone else did it I like created what I had in my brain or did something similar I'd regret it and I think um I think often when you're starting something you really do it has to come from a passion point it has to come from and so for me that was food you know I loved the fact this was like a really nutritious product it was really simple like our almond butter has like two ingredients it's like really clean like so I just loved the simplicity of it yeah it delivered taste flavor and fun and and and nutrition so yeah that was the starting point and I quite literally bought a blender um bought some nuts and I sort of started making it in my kitchen in sort of north London at the time and it was literally so proper kitchen table stuff up and and took those like early recipes some of which were I don't think very good um looking back but some of them are actually still like in our portfolio now that we have a coconut almond butter that was what I created like back in the kitchen back then and yeah I tested them out at like markets and um went to kind of a market in South London called Motley Street and that was like my first step I think like getting the idea into something tangible then on to like a market store so yeah that's where I went and what what point did you sort of really realized that okay this is something that I'm deeply passionate about and something that I'm doing quite well and I like these recipes and this is sort of because even when we start these things they say that the best businesses are born out of something self-indulgent right and something out of a place where you're like I really want this and this would be great for me and you know nine times out of ten if you really want it there's a lot of people that are yeah of that same mindset as you when did you first realize that this could actually be a business I think it's often why I say to people if anyone starts to think about business like you've got to make it tangible real get it out in the real world as early as you possibly can because whilst a market store brand wasn't necessarily what I wanted I knew when I was starting thinking about the idea I wanted to be a national brand I liked the idea of having an impact with hundreds of thousands of people um but a market store was like the place that I knew where to start it felt like the first step that felt like relatively risk-free where I could get in front of consumers and ultimately was like a really basic form of like consumer testing like you're in front of people every single weekend speaking to people they're either deciding to buy it or not in that moment and they give you live feedback immediately as soon as they try as to why they are why they're not exactly and so I think that like getting that consumer getting in front of people as early as possible is key and I think for me when I started to get that like even though there are only like a few hundred people that certain bits of like positive like reassurance and validation of like what it was I was creating and to be honest just like built my confidence because I wasn't I wasn't working in food and birth before I started I was 24 at the time I was really young so for me it was like that that started to validate the idea in a way that wasn't just like me telling myself this was a good enough idea um so I think that was that was important um but then I think the second big moment sort of in within a similar time frame was like first fundraise like I did a pre-revenue crowdfund um on on Crowdcube at the time it was about 100 grand that I was looking to raise and again was like a huge I guess it felt a little bit like jumping off a cliff like you when you do a crowdfund you put it live that day and you don't 100 % know how many people are going to roll on in to kind of invest in the business and it is also a really public platform like all of your friends and family are going to see it everyone that's like very exposing it's so exposing yeah which i think is starting a business it is just a level of just continual exposure just the ride just the ride so that was my first lesson in that but it was definitely that moment where i was like this could either go really well and we'll fund it or or it will just be like the worst 60 days of my life waiting for like the the clock to end and thankfully uh i raised the money in about 10 days and that again was just like okay so there's people willing to put their money into this for equity um but they back it enough at this early stage that they believe yeah everyone works hard for their money right and you know for somebody to part with theirs to invest in what you're doing yeah will always give you that self-belief and that sense of okay this is this is gonna work you know this is land with people they're understanding what i'm doing how much do you think sort of making your own luck starts with being willing to act on something before that you'll know that it before you know that it will fully work if that makes sense yeah i i think luck is the outcome of being quite busy of like of of of taking risks calculated risks but still risks early on i think often you know if you are starting something you have to be active you have to start and actually put your money where your mouth is often your time like you know you are effectively making sacrifices quite early on in order to kind of test this idea and get it out in the world and just by doing that by getting it out to other people to investors consumers to whoever it is retailers like you are making that luck happen by just being active and and and and and driving that change but I you know I think luck is a funny thing because in some ways I think you know I'm really lucky in the way that I've got a really great family who've been really supportive on the on my journey you know I've always had them as like a safety net I think in many ways and I think other people aren't always that lucky to have that and so I think you always know that even though you know I've had lots of um proactive I've gone after the opportunity at the same time you've worked really hard yeah yeah of course and you've had but you've had like privilege and and you know that support as well that has got you where which is in some ways luck I think too yeah of course because like you say if you've got that not everybody has right and you're lucky that that is your the family that you're born into and that you know that safety and that support system yeah that you kind of that everybody needs and whether it it always takes village doesn't it whether it comes from a family or if it comes from a team or a friend or you know whoever your village is when the days are dark and hard and you they're the people that you lean on the most right and that you hold the dearest what do you think um selling face to face taught you that you could never learn have learned like writing a business plan at home so those kind of those like formative years in Pippinut's business being out on those market stalls selling those products what do you think because I think I think that is such a kind of grassroots starting point but it feels really important to what it is that you've done yeah I think it it 100 % teaches you that the consumer decides because I think you can have an amazing idea you can have an amazing idea for a brand and how you want to position it and what you think someone wants and you know the kind of portfolio and products that you want to create but only until you get in front of someone and they purchase it with their own money do you really get an indication as to whether this is going to be something successful and they will be the ultimate decider of the business so you always have to keep the consumer close to your brand like no matter how big you get even now like how we're trying to find ways that we can kind of hear and listen and learn from what people are saying and understand our consumer and what their needs are is like such a fundamental thing which I think you learn when you're like face-to-face selling um and I think as much anything else I think with food in particular like food is about joy and in and pleasure and you know it is also nutrition but it is largely we eat because it's a joyful thing and you're sharing with family so I think for me it was when you're selling face-to-face there's something or speaking to anyone about your product there is something so enriching about that kind of interaction that again it for me it taught me just how much I loved this business and the idea as well that your food the things that you make the products that you're putting in front of people should be there to bring people joy and so you know obsess about the detail make them as good as they possibly can be um because in doing so you're kind of in you know you're helping that absolutely that pleasure you know you the idea of sort of particularly in those early days getting the product to be as best as it can is so important to every founder to every entrepreneur when you're you know in that product base yeah business how important do you think it is to because people have very different views on this and we discuss this a lot on this podcast but how important do you think it is putting the product out there before everything was perfect because there's this idea as a bit as a founder that you know not everything is going to be perfect on day one and if you don't press go and start you're never going to start and you can sort of fix problems as you go or you can tweak and you can perfect yeah as you go and ultimately as you said the customers will give you feedback instantly and that might sort of well will alter how you move forward how it's kind of that inner conflict as a founder and every founder that I know is a perfectionist and wants everything to be you know a certain way how did that look like to you yeah yeah and it's building on what you're saying like there's a it it's that also speed versus you know do you get something out fast and get to the market quickly and capture the audience and be first or do you wait until it's really great and until it's almost perfect because I don't think anything can be perfect but until it's almost there look like at a market stall pippinart it was pretty rough and ready the products were not perfect I iterated all the time I was learning as I was going like it was it was as minimum viable product as you possibly can probably get and it was not the brand that I aspired in my brain to kind of want to have so in that lens like right from the get-go it was proper scrappy um however the point at which I chose to scale up the brand and decide to get it into retail and that's when like we really kind of launched um that for me is when I think you have to start to really sweat the details and yeah you know ultimately if you're selling in a national retailer and you get listings in Tesco Sainsbury's you don't have that long really to be able to prove yourself so you need to make sure your product and brand and your you know everything around it your supply chain is is is pretty solid it's good and it is to a level that you feel you're putting your best foot forwards and so when I think in that stage when you're scaling up you know you're working with manufacturers you're developing the product range you're working with a branding agency to develop it I think you do need to take a level of time because there have been moments where I've rushed product launches like three years into the journey with I launched a range of almond milks which you cannot find anywhere because they took they were in the market for 12 months and they failed royally and I put down to the reason one of the reasons why I think they failed was that I rushed the product development I was like ship it trying to get it out too fast I sold it into retailers before it was ready and then I had a listing that I was working towards and it was it was almost like tripping over at every stage because it just was trying to happen too quickly you're like this thing it just it was like destined at the start yeah yeah and I almost knew the moment it launched it wasn't going to work because I could see when consumers were trying our products it wasn't good enough and so it's a real fine balance it is isn't it and I suppose then that's at those moments that you're so by the point that you went to retail which is like sort of you know almost like don't run before you can walk because the point you went to retail you were ready because you've had those early years reiterating yeah tweaking in the smaller set in that sort of safety net of yeah what you were doing so that was your it wasn't perfect on day one at the market yeah but of course over that time and being there you perfected it to the point where you were then ready for retail yeah so you had that as you went yeah 100 and for anyone like starting something up it always takes longer than anything like no matter what like I thought you know I'd quit my job it would take a year it took two years and like it is painful because often you're relying on other people like relying on investors to whether they're going to invest in you than rely on manufacturers whether they want to work with you it takes far longer so also just have that compassion as well if it is taking a bit of time it's normal um but I do think when you start a business up like that idea that i said earlier about you know get to market faster you can be first and like beat beat beat whoever it is whoever it is that's a competitor in your brain yeah but but the beauty of business is that it's all in the art of execution like if you can execute something better than someone else and that's not just on day one but like every single day really try and do your best to kind of make the right as best decisions as you can and like execute the brand build the brand world out in a way that is you know better than yours you're gonna you're gonna win eventually and I always held that belief even with fifth and that in the early days that I was gonna do it I was gonna execute better and and I was gonna make sure that it didn't matter if I wasn't necessarily the first to market but I was gonna really make sure that you know I was gonna try and um deliver it you're so right because we have these imaginary it's funny how the brain does that thing doesn't it where it's like I need to do this now yeah because somebody else is going to and like of course but that's life right like we've and we don't know that and sometimes we'll make decisions because we just think let's go yeah and I think I think founders of everyone has fallen into that oh yeah so impatient trap before you know where you just think okay but what if but what if and it's a it's kind of a weird level of paranoia isn't it like this founder that we think might be doing this thing that we don't even know that we've dreamt up yeah yeah totally and they're like restless the whole time you're just wanting to get to the next stage faster than maybe you can a light bulb moment launches your business but consistent habits power it every day after today's episode is powered by starling whether you're side hustling or scaling starling believes that with the right mindset and tools anybody can be good with money.

21:29It's not about complex number wrangling or losing days to admin. It's creating a smart system of financial habits that can give you active control and build your confidence so that you can focus on being a founder, not the finance team. Search Starling Business to find out more about their monthly fee-free business account. I want to talk about sort of, I suppose the most literal example of doing something unconventional to give the business a chance. You enter the competition, yeah against you're already laughing i know what's coming um against around 3 000 applicants and won three months of rent-free accommodation in a garden shed yeah tell me all about this and what it meant because you obviously left your job and yeah tell us this story i'm gonna have to put context on this because that makes me sound really weird i want the context it's great i'm teeing you up your team yeah so um this was in my really early days so this was pre-launch and I was setting up the business so I've been working it for about I think nine months at a time so yeah about 24 I'd got the kind of products ready the branding was ready the manufacturing was ready and I was at the point where I was like I need to probably quit my day job post-market post-market so I was sort of scaling up at this point but I was pre-launched right and I knew I needed to quit my job I knew at this point like I needed to give it more time but I had racked up a load of credit cards I had zero funding at this particular moment in time and yeah I didn't know how I was going to like fund my life I living in London at the time um and also like quit my job at the same time and start this business and so on a whim of one of my mentors at the time sent me this link to this competition and it was called Escape to the Shed it was run by a company called Escape to the City and they were giving one startup the platform to basically work rent-free in their in their office and they were setting up a shed in their back garden of their like head office where they were going to like house this an entrepreneur for the summer and so on a whim I applied and then it was a space book competition which shows how long ago it was a space book competition and I'm Pippin up one and I remember getting the call from the co-founder and he said like Pip you've won the competition and I was standing I was working at the science museum at the time I was standing outside the science museum and I was like I'm gonna have to follow through with this I'm gonna have to quit my job and I quit my job an hour later I moved out of my nice flat in North London I moved in and it gave me basically three months runway three months no rents no like overheads when it came to offices and it gave me time it gave me three months and that's when I did a crowd fund I did a crowd fund over that summer and raised 120 grand placed the first order and like away I went and that was it so it was the most random thing I've ever done I am not someone that does something like that but it's so brilliant because and also as you say like you then you got that phone call and then you think okay I've got to follow through this now because sometimes we can just sort of get in our own way and would you have had the you know sort of balls for want of a better term to to quit your job because you know you know that is scary it's a risk and even though it's a risk that you know you want to take sometimes you just do need that moment where someone sort of backs you into a corner and says now yeah yeah but without that competition would you it could have just changed the trajectory of the path for you i think as well it's it's yeah there's sometimes you need the nudges yeah for me that was it and it gave me the opportunity to kind of have time I think time is such a powerful thing in those early days that you really often just need time to work on something and for anyone that might be listening to this now that thinks okay that's me I've literally just quit my job because I'm going to give this thing a go was there ever a moment during that sort of you know three months or that summer that you'd set yourself to okay this is where I'm going to give it a go that you thought what on earth have I done what on earth am I doing almost daily oh and I mean I was living in a shed like it was weird I was living in a shed Michelle what do you think every day I think my mum and dad honestly thought I'd had some sort of nervous breakdown um so yeah it was quite strange and um and yeah I think it you know until you have a product tangibly in your hands until you're actually selling something you you really only have an idea still at that point so i think there was still that nervous and what if the crowdfunding wasn't successful what if i wasn't able to raise the investment so yeah it was a really nerve-wracking phase but equally i kind of also was like well the worst that can happen and i often think this in the first year or so the worst that can happen go and get another job again like is it doesn't happen you know yeah but you look giving it a go giving it a go and let it and take that pressure off a little bit because it's not like take calculated risks you know don't expose yourself so much that you're you're not able to come back from it but equally you can normally find a solution if it weren't to go to plan super early on yeah how do you convince in those early stages how do you convince other people to believe in something i suppose this sort of alludes to the crowdfunding moment how do you convince people to believe in something when it's still so small was that ever a challenge or you know I suppose it's articulating that and getting across your passion yeah when you're doing something in that vein can be because when you're putting something out to crowdfunding right like you say you've got that window of time and you kind of hope that it doesn't tick along and yeah no one engages with it how did how how was that for you yeah it was quite challenging I mean I turned crowdfunding partially because when I was trying to raise money for it I I couldn't I couldn't raise the funds privately through just angel investors and so crowdfunding almost was my last resort right it's like I'll open it up to like a friends and family round effectively plus some other people who hopefully join the bang work and after them I think though when you're building a brand and especially when you're raising investment you do have to get it a certain way down the line to know that when people are putting money into your business and sort of buying into your your business you've you've got enough of the legwork done and so you know for me at that point I'd I'd developed the brand you know what you see today like the identity the logo the packaging was all done um and it looked really sharp it looked really distinctive it was really different and i'd use a really great agency to kind of develop the you know the like the look and feel yeah which i think is super important i think the way you can find like validations for what it is that you're doing so whether it's you know having really great early stage you know mentors who you can reference who say that they're feeding into you or you know you've got great branding agency on board who's going to develop the brand and create it is what it is you've got in your mind and something tangible and other proof points you know at the time I had like a kind of early stage confirmed listing with Selfridges again it's sort of another validation so when you don't have necessarily the track record which I didn't at the time you're constantly looking for like examples that you can point people towards yes to validate yes yes this isn't such a risky punt that you've done just amazing I'm not just like yeah there is something in this And I think and then underlying within all of that, I think, is an element of data, what you can get your hands on, at least when you're a small and early stage.

28:57But to, again, validate. So whether that's consumer feedback, whether that's market data, trend data, all of these things, I think, nudge and suggest that this idea, this business that you're creating is, you know, more of a positive opportunity that's going to succeed. it's that validation isn't it so let's talk about this early sort of selfridges commitment which i mean it is that store that is major when when selfridges gives you their sort of gold star or that sort of seal of approval for every founder it doesn't matter sort of what the business is because it's that store that houses you know from food to fashion to beauty to you know electronics to have sort of selfridges interested in retaining you i think will always do that thing that you're like yeah and did you get did you have that same reaction oh my god like the selfridges food hall is iconic it is amazing and so when you get stocked there not only is it a listing it's great but also they only list like the hippest brands yeah the things that are on trend and it like quality quality products um and the beauty of when you get a selfishness listing is that you've got that to then help you get the next listing and you can't really get much better when it comes to selfishness as your first customer because your ricardo's your um you know whole foods your sainsbury's they all look to you know a store like that as like a as a trendsetter and so It's like Tastemaker almost, isn't it?

30:39100%. So it almost like sets you on a path that, again, it doesn't mean that it's going to necessarily work out, but it certainly gives you that platform to then start to kind of like build your distribution and start to, you know, demonstrate that the brand is something that they should, someone else should list as well. The credibility almost, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. And like you say, it becomes that retail, it has that knock-on effect to other retailers. It really, really does. Yeah. But yeah, I remember, I think I sampled hundreds and hundreds of times in those stores in that first year, just because like it's your it's your first proof point that you really need to make sure it's like the best case study you can put forward to them at the next retailer that you speak to.

31:19I love nothing more than seeing someone sampling in Self-Produced Food Hall. I know. Like that is like this is like real bougie energy, isn't it? But I love it when I'm like wandering past and I'm like, oh, what's that? And I really and I've met podcast guests in that way. um Cara Keane who owns a brand called Super Keane which is like gorgeous cereal um that my daughter has a lot of allergies and it's one that she loves and she can eat every day um and I met her and I'd randomly bought it the week before because I'd seen it and thought this is a gorgeous brand I love this brand and she was trialing it and then I met her had a great conversation and she came with the podcast like I just love that space I think it's so cool and I think that's your point it's like people almost go to self just to discover stuff yeah you're like open to like new brands when you're walking around the aisles and obviously it's like you know it's like a perfect little mooch isn't it yeah so it's also that like when you've never really when the brand is new like you're you ultimately are trying to like get in front of many early stage kind of you know it's that classic first a thousand fans like people that shop in i don't know self-sust tend to be like early adopters considered yeah more likely to give something a go and so again you're trying to get in front of those people because whether it be that they like post it on socials whatever like that it does more than just you know a sale from self-discences yeah it's almost the right customer it's like the invested customer they're like considered shopper they're not in a rush yeah they're there to sort of educate themselves on what's new and yeah which is why i think like distribution is like marketing often you think of it like a sales channel get into retail like obviously you want to get into tesco sainsbury's ads or whatever but actually where you're listed and where you're stocked it's such a like strategy in itself like i'm in the first year we focused so heavily on getting listed in all like the hip gyms and like boutique like yoga places all of that because we knew that our demographic was shopping there we knew that it gave us access to kind of again those early adopters who are more likely to kind of give a product like ours a go a new brand a go and who probably are again the tastemakers who who set the tone of whether this brand is something that's sort of got the zeitgeist so i think again like really like thinking about how where you stock your product it's such a intentional thing and and and really like use it to your advantage when you're building a brand it's not just about all the other marketing that you do it's actually where you're listed it's just as important yes yeah absolutely that i'm just reading my notes here so obviously you have the self-dust moment and then that's followed by as you said the sort of knock-on effect major retail rollout from then Sainsbury's began second Pippinut in 2015 which obviously you've described as a pivotal moment for you receiving that email from the buyer we spoke about earlier by the first year of trading the business generated around 600 ,000 pounds in sales fast forward a decade and the scale of pip and nut now looks completely or vastly different um give us a sense of the scale of pip and nut today yeah so today today we're the number one brand in the uk for nut butter so yes yeah we um tipped the scales last year actually and it was like madness a real madness but um so that was huge and and so we're around sort of 40 million in sales now this year and growing really fast um and and kind of got a real kind of broad kind of product portfolio now um but still like largely in the uk like we're still really focused on building the brand here um but yeah our range is really growing we've got kind of a range of snacking products which is again i guess doing the same thing that we did in nut butter which is bringing a natural delicious products that's sort of removed of things that you wouldn't necessarily recognize into the same problem that exists in pretty much every single product category in in supermarkets so cereal bars are similar like so many healthy uh looking products have ingredients in them that you probably wouldn't know you think you're picking the healthy option you think you're picking a healthy option so yeah we're tackling that new category which is a funny one actually because we kind of got to like the number one in in nut butter and holding on to it and it's a different kind of mindset when you suddenly get to number one you're like instead of chasing the whole time you're you're out front so you've got a different energy to it yes with our snacking range we're like right back at day one again we're like the challenger brand in that category we're up against some of the biggest you know general mills unilevers mars they're all in these kind of in this category so you're again having to like embrace that real like challenger brand mindset of like every pound has to you know one plus one has to equal three with your marketing like you're always having to kind of embed that and sort of be scrappy in some ways so we've kind of got this funny stage where we've kind of got scale but we're also like starting again again yeah which is quite which is actually a lovely position it is great because you miss that startup energy when you're with growth you've had the scale of course it's fantastic and that's what every founder wishes and hopes for but the idea of starting again is exciting I'd assume it's exciting and it reminds you that it's tough like at the start like building something and you have to really really work for it like it's not a given so yeah it's kind of humbling in that sense but also like you get the wins you get those wins where you just yeah yeah where you where you've grafted and it's like a stepping stone like you say that those wins they feel really I mean well they land very differently don't yeah rather than everything being a given how has your role changed as a founder from the girl in the garden shed to you know 40 million in sales like how has your role changed is it any different or how do you want it to change yeah no it's it's really changed I I use the title CEO now which I still to this day will do bunny ears whenever I say CEO everybody that I know that is does the same thing what is that I I don't know is it a female thing who knows but I think there's something about when you're a founder and you kind of start to transition be like do I want to continue being more of the founder kind of visionary or do I want to continue running the business and being like you know the strategic decision maker at the same time and yeah actually within like about three four years ago I kind of had a real kind of it's actually just after having my my daughter first year in her the first year that she was on here I kind of really have that kind of wobble of like what do I want to do should I am I still the right person to run this business is it still right for the brand like should should I move aside and allow someone else who has proper experience to like drive it forwards and I spent about a year looking for an MD I thought you know what this is this is my moment to kind of like take more of a creative role and and and and let the commercial side land with someone else and spent 12 months searching and came all the way full circle right back to it because I think sometimes I was listening to all these like interviews and they would be saying stuff to me and I was like I know this like I I also know how to do this or what you're saying to me isn't necessarily moving me me or the business further forwards and if anything I I kind of came back to the idea that I just I had still so much energy for it and I just knew that I would put more energy in than anyone else would running the business at that particular moment and I think it's often a thing that a lot of founders go through which is like should I keep running the ship or should I hand it over and this idea that actually a founder doesn't have necessarily the skills to run a bigger business um but actually I think you sometimes have to ground yourself it's like you know the business in a way that no one ever will like because you have seen it from every every season every season and I think that gave me the confidence to say that actually i'm going to continue running it but as a result it's quite a different job now to i can imagine it's so interesting i was at a dinner last night and karen brady was there and i mean she fascinates me yeah and we were talking and somebody was having this exact conversation like you know i think i'm ready to hire but i'm finding it really hard and i'm not you know it's like a really shit time hiring and it's not going down well and is anyone going to look after this in the way that i you know she stood up in the room and she said one advice you know one piece of advice that i'll give you after someone that's hired a lot of people i would ask them one question and one question only in an interview and i'm like what's that what's that and she was like i would say tell me something about my business that i don't know and she said it's it's so interesting how that and that's not like necessarily it's not a statement I want you to tell me if you research this road, I want you to tell me something that I don't yet know.

40:17And that's the people that I entertain. It's so interesting. I love that. Of course, like I know this back to front and inside out. But if you're telling me something that I don't know. Then you should 100 % get in the seat. Then 100%, yeah, let's go. This is it. It's not an arrogance to say that I am better than or smarter than. But it's back to that point. Somebody really has to move it along. Yes. Like really has to turn the dial. and you have to also be ready to let them do that and i'm ready if you're going to and that's what she was saying if you can't like jump in like where you're on board but there's no point doing this because i unfortunately i have been here for every season i don't know exactly what works and what hasn't historically so it's interesting now it's time for three two one some financial questions powered by our friends at starling bank bank on a mission to give founders confidence and control over their finances.

41:08And these are going to be financially skewed. It's a conversation that as women sometimes we shy away from, which, you know, is silly because this is ultimately how this works. I want three habits from you that, you know, when money was really tight in the early days of Pippin' Up, that you sort of still haven't been able to or wanted to shake. So three habits that have been important to you that have stayed with you. yeah from the start yeah yeah I think the first one is around certain bits of the brand like early days no budget you end up doing your social yourself you know you're you're you know you don't outsource it to agencies like part of it is literally but not by choice you're just doing it because you don't have the means to pay someone I think there are certain bits of the business like for me like our social and particularly our creative side of the business that we try not we don't outsource because actually I think you learn way more because you're closer to the data the consumer um and and you can move faster so that's one habit that we've not stopped um the second one is just like commercial like always be selling like I still now like will always prioritize being in front of customers first like you know spending the time out in the trade like because that is ultimately the lifeblood of the business so that was always where I started in the early days was like making sure commercially we were like really all over it um I think the third habit for me is always know what's in your bank like never lose sight of it like I still now will make sure that I've like got sight on our cash balance I don't got brilliant CFO he's amazing he takes obviously a lot of the heavy lifting around the finance away from me but that doesn't mean that you should excuse yourself from knowing what's going on financially within your business and assuming that someone else is completely covering it like you should know it's your job and I think when you're in your first year like you're obviously only ever looking at your cash flow you're permanently on it so yeah that's never left me either yeah good very good advice very good advice um what are two ways your relationship with money or perhaps wealth has changed as the business has grown yeah I think with money um my relationship is that me money is is choice um it gives you options and the power of that and i think particularly when it comes to kind of fundraising you know there have been times where we've been unprofitable and we've been raising capital and that runway is running out and the pressure is on and you are having to make maybe decisions on what investors you take on board and that that is really really hard especially when you're under the cost that actually you've got two months runway you need the cash so when you've got when you're profitable it gives you choices and that power that gives you and it's so empowering empowering that means that you're not chasing cash the whole time and you raise money when you want to raise yes there's a real difference in that um and with wealth yeah i mean i'm you know a really big believer that you know in like running a business one of the privileges is that it's also can be wealth creation for your team like so everyone in Pithnut has equity in the business about 13 % of our business is allocated to options and if we're lucky to kind of get to the point where you know that realizes like for me a big part of building a brand is that the people that have helped me get to where I am have have their success as well and benefit from it because they've done so much the heavy lift as well so yeah I think for me the wealth is obviously an incredible privilege if you manage to get to the point where you're lucky enough to have it but it's only great if it's shared and and you've got that kind of sense of people being there with you yeah so that for me is i love that i love that uh and one thing you really want the pepper nut over the next few years yeah so last year beginning of last year we launched our own foundation so it's a charitable foundation so 10 % of our profits go to the Pippin Up Foundation which donates money to charities that support community meals and and and loneliness for people that are really sort of desperate and and in need and so a goal of mine is that we reach our a millionth meal in the next three years that we've served to communities I think the beauty of when you do that is not only is the business being successful but in the process you're helping people so that for me is that's incredible and you will and you will it's incredible um and then lastly i want to talk about because we focus on the business and the finance and the raising and the you know the figures and the data and everything else in between sometimes as a founder we can lose ourselves in all of that yeah and we've we sort have all had that point where we're like oh this is you know I'm in the trenches here or how do I separate myself from the business and it's a really hard yeah it's a hard thing for so so many women what does success now look like to you as a founder and how you want to feel yeah as a founder in it like as yeah as your idea of that changed and do you does that mean a slight change in a role or you know less pressure or like how do you want to feel as a founder and what would be your like sort of blue sky setup for you yeah yeah yeah it's definitely shifted over the years um I think having kids it's just it does change your perspective of like how you want to run and like what the reason why you're doing this for um like for me one of the most important things is that I'm learning and getting energy from the business every day.

46:58If I'm lucky enough to turn up at work every day and feel like that level of hunger to want to do the stuff that I'm doing, that I think is success, to love what you do. I think it's such a privilege to have the choice to run a business and build it and hopefully enjoy the journey. Having said that, there is a limit to how much I'm willing to now let it encroach on my life. and I think particularly in the early years and you'll know this like you you give up so much you probably aren't the friend that you always that you want to be or I certainly wasn't same with your my partner and kids like you don't get those early years again so I think if I'm lucky enough and successful enough to be able to have enough balance that I can be you know mentally available when I'm at home like that for me is really important so I'm much more disciplined than I've ever have been but I'm also still not quite there yet yeah well that's always work I mean that's just the way it is but I think that is a real privilege as well I completely agree and then finally what's next for Fear for Nut I mean it feels like it's well it's already world domination but what's what's next yeah I mean for me like we are right at the early stage of like scaling our snacking business like side of the business so that is like the sky is the limit with that um and international as well is a big focus so we've just started like reaching out into Europe which is like a whole new kettle of fish because it's different culture language like supply chain all of that so I feel like I'm learning again with doing that so how do you take the playbook of how we built the brand in the UK and like translate that across European markets is currently what I'm thinking about so but ultimately like I want to create a business that has impact and I mean positive impact so you know I'm really passionate about you know we're a B Corp how we can really embed like the triple bottom line into our business like really push the you know how progressive we can be as an employer and as a business as a whole so yeah I don't want to I don't want to at whatever point I might step away from the business I don't want to look back and regret that I could have done a bit more like whether it's environmentally or socially um yeah so that's a big passion point for me amazing well thank you so much i've loved chatting to you and it's been so incredible to hear i mean what a success i mean i read my notes and i'm like wow the success story is incredible but it's always i think comforting for a listener to you know know that there's always bumps along the way and you started from such a grassroots place that it's such an inspirational story.

49:43Thank you. Thank you for having us. Don't forget to follow us on Apple and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss out because next time I'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched. If like me you're a watcher then please follow us on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe.