Steven Bartlett Gave Me £100K, Then We Grew 600%: Hello Klean | Ladies Who Launch

0:00Rochelle: What if the beauty product you were missing wasn't another serum or another shampoo, but in fact, better water? Well, Karlee Zhang turned£60 ,000 of personal saving into Hello Clean, a brand that makes shower filters and hair and skincare products that's now reached more than half a million customers and secures Britta's first ever investment in beauty. Today, we're finding out how she built an entirely new beauty category.

0:30Karlee Zhang: Three, two, one, zero. All engines running.

0:35Rochelle: I'm so excited to meet you and hear all about your story because I think what you've built is something so brilliant. And I'm always a fan of when founders sort of take a category that's really unsexy and make it feel super aesthetic. So I love what you've done with Hello Clean. But before we get on to that, I want to sort of go back a little bit because you'd already spent... I suppose years working inside beauty and luxury, including roles that connected you to the likes of Tiffany and Hood of Beauty and the beauty space. So I suppose you weren't coming into the industry as a sort of, you know, as someone completely outside.

1:16Rochelle: I suppose you already understood how beauty brands would speak to customers. What did those years do for you to help you understand the consumer that you're talking to, do you think?

1:28Karlee Zhang: Yeah. I think that like my experience, especially working in social media as well as content, it's given me that perspective that like everything comes from a problem. You're solving a problem for the consumer. That means you need to break it down and make the problem really easy to understand and comprehend. So I think that was definitely a great starting point for Hello Clean. because when we started it was like hard water lime scale chlorine it's a it's not the sexiest thing to talk about so it was like okay but in the end of the day it led to beauty concerns like dry hair irritated skin eczema acne how do you make that one plus one equals two but not overwhelm

2:16Rochelle: people and that's hard because you actually really you underestimate don't you when you're developing or building around how easy it is to overwhelm or confuse a customer you know you might go down a tangent and be super creative but actually it's quite confusing when a customer is trying to learn about a new brand you do need everything I suppose simplified for sure and I

2:39Karlee Zhang: think that like across not only in beauty but across many companies that um a lot of people become specialists in what they do, which is a great thing. But then you have like this echo chamber within the teams where they start talking in very technical jargon and assuming that because they understand each other and they're engineers and they get the technology. But in the end of the day, you're not selling to your counterpart. You're selling to somebody who's on an iPhone screen who's never heard of these things before. So you need to take yourself out of everything you know almost unlearn it in a way and then just learn how to spoon feed it to somebody who's seen

3:19Rochelle: this for the very first time that is such good advice because it's so true you get so caught up in thinking you're talking to your peers or people that maybe understand I remember when I first sort of entered the world of business in terms of me that looked like founding my baby brand and I remember I'd come from such a different space in what I did and I remember that everyone sort of spoken like acronyms and everything was I'm like what's a 3PL and what's the MOQ and what but they would just talk around me like that was the norm but I was a sponge to it and I you know I made it so but actually learning that was a was a big deal like you say everything just needs to be simplified if you don't know where you are precisely and I think it's also helpful within the team right when

4:06Karlee Zhang: you're growing like we always try to say like even when we're talking to each other we're still a very small team say things simply you know say things in layman's terms let's not confuse each other

4:18Rochelle: act like you're telling a child yeah that's what I need that would be really helpful for me so there was obviously a real knowledge of experience for the brands that you'd worked with and alongside so let's let's talk about the idea of Hello Clean because that really came from something much more personal so tell me a little bit about that yeah so my personal experience I had I was

4:43Karlee Zhang: born in western China then I grew up in Canada then went to school in Italy and then worked a few years in New York and then Europe subsequently like Dubai Berlin and then London goodness me it's it's a lot but I think you know throughout this process it was the studying and the working that every single time I moved, that my hair and skin really felt quite off. And what was really different is that they're not the same in each place.

5:12Rochelle: Right. Right.

5:13Karlee Zhang: So like, for instance, when I was living in Dubai, I was having like quite a lot of hair fall, which really made me quite nervous. But at the same time, when I'm living in London, I was having like extremely dry skin. But then they would go away, for instance, when I had then gone back to Vancouver to visit my family. so it took me a while and I started to blame myself and I was like okay you know um maybe I'm not using the right products maybe it's my diet maybe it's my diet uh maybe it's my age maybe it's my hormones yeah so let's start taking like going down this rabbit hole and trying out different things yeah yeah and then in the end of the day I'm like okay maybe it's not me it's the environment that I'm in so then it was like okay is it the air and then potentially is it the water so that big aha moment came with like okay um it was water and specifically like hard water and chlorine as well as the metals that was um you know having these bad reactions with my body and then I started to look for a solution for myself and what was available like this was many years ago uh were either very big industrial water softening systems that were like and i was renting so you know it's not possible to start breaking down the wall and installing it so we're like okay that's um one option out of the way and then the second one was a lot of these diys because then you go on reddit it's like what do you do when you live in berlin and you got hard water and people are like okay let's put baking soda and then use um acv and then rinse your scalp with it to get rid of the buildup and you try it once and then it doesn't smell great and then it's such a huge hassle and then the last one was amazon so you have like um you know the shower filters the ones with the beads inside and i was like okay i would like to buy that but as a beauty consumer and also somebody who has worked in beauty all these years i felt like the experience didn't sell it to me the proof and the communication on how it worked did also didn't sell it to me right and the overall experience that i'm trying to get it didn't make me feel assured so i'm like okay maybe there is an opportunity beyond just oh let's sell a solution but like let's have a bring in a dialogue about how is water impacting our hair and skin within the beauty and wellness

7:39Rochelle: space and do you know this is for me where it gets really interesting because as you say shower filters existed right but it not in the way that we're seeing with you and and your story what made you believe I suppose that you could essentially take something that I suppose was viewed as like plumbing i suppose and turn it into a beauty and wellness brand this is where i think it's so interesting and so smart because it's almost something that shouldn't be in the

8:07Karlee Zhang: category but is yeah well thank you very much i think that like um it's again going into like the consumer's problem right they're not really looking to deal with a plumbing problem and And they're not really looking to get rid of the lime scale on their kettle. At the end of the day, they want softer feeling skin and more manageable hair and less flare ups. So let's dissect the problem and explain it into a way that like it's commonly understood in beauty terminology. And then it also goes into, you know, designing the product as well as the overall experience that like it feels cohesive and it feels like a product that you want to look at inside.

8:54Karlee Zhang: the shower so that it's not like a plumbing afterthought or it stood out in a very obtrusive way but something that it's like okay it looks nice and it feels good yeah I mean the aesthetic

9:05Rochelle: is so so strong and it's so crystal clear what you know from those initial sort of introduction into the brand I could instantly see what you were what you were doing right you're you're giving us wellness and like you say I'm not someone that is going to think about my plumbing but guess what if I'm I'm thinking about my skin and my hair and you know overall what water does of course I am and of course of course it makes sense when you think about it in hindsight that that it enters that category rather than the unsexy category of plumbing so what you've now got on your hand is this brilliant idea this concept that what in the way that you're bringing to market hasn't been done before how do you go about communicating that as we touched on earlier when you communicate it's got to be kind of simple we've got to understand it when you take yourself out of that space what was your first step in letting the consumer know what it is you're doing yeah so i um for the

10:10Karlee Zhang: first step before we even get into the product and the solution i think it is raising the awareness of what is inside your water, what's the difference between hard and soft water, and how is that interacting with your skin? Because I think, you know, as you mentioned, the showerhead, it can look good, but if you do just present that randomly to someone on the street, people are going to be like, what? But I've got a showerhead. Yes, yes. But I think the first step is like, okay, how can we have a, imagine we're having a conversation about Hello Clean at a dinner table and no one is allowed to mention the brand name hello clean right how do we open this so the conversation is let's talk about water yes and if we can crack that part and we can raise enough awareness and then the day the brand will equate to all of these conversations that we've built you know

11:02Rochelle: collectively throughout the years so your mission was almost educating people in what water might be doing to them yes and was that like how did you do that was that visual like how did I'm so interested in this it's so it's it's almost notifying the consumer of the problem before giving them the solution in case they weren't already aware yeah I mean we tried a lot

11:27Karlee Zhang: of like different avenues um I think when we first started it was um trying a lot with ads And then as we grew, it was also working with specific talent and authoritative figures who had the credibility to talk about certain skin and hair issues. And then now as we're bringing in a lot of this production and shoots and video in-house, we started to produce our own educative content. one we launched recently was hk tv so it was a series of like little experiments that really helped visualize what is water doing to your hair and skin but done in a almost like wes anderson slash severance that kind of way so it makes people really stop and be like okay this is weird yes but i also really really interested yeah yeah but you know back way back in the day before you know we had any resources to do any of these um we started with something called a free trial because um that was the only option available to omar and myself right um we didn't have any marketing budget so we're like okay um we'll ship you the product you only pay for the um shipping fees and then afterwards um we charge you 30 days later if you want to keep using it because we were confident in the product and we're like sometimes you just need to like see it to believe it and we took a little bit of a gamble and it really paid off that's so yeah that's that feels such a

13:00Rochelle: kind of like a real old school authentic approach which is like you say when you're educating people

13:06Karlee Zhang: that's exactly what you need yeah I think sometimes you just have to be direct and to the point and look at what options you have and it's like okay well if I can't do big influencer events And if the biggest barrier here is trust, let's get the products into people's hands and just let them be our biggest advocates. And earn the trust.

13:25Rochelle: Absolutely that. You figure out what you want to do. You know the avenues. You've got experience in talking to the consumer and breaking things down for a consumer. in terms of like launching your own business how was that for you at the start did it was it something that came really natural to you or was it a bit like okay I'm across the creative and everything else but I'm not so sure about the business aspect how was it for you it's been

13:51Karlee Zhang: quite challenging I think since day one and I think still to today it's quite challenging um it doesn't really get um was it what was that say it doesn't get better it gets easier no it

14:02Rochelle: doesn't get easier it gets better yeah but you just get better at handling it exactly and absorbing the stress you become more tolerant to what it throws at you right yes um but you know i'm lucky

14:15Karlee Zhang: enough that i have a co-founder omer so he is you know he looks after operations and finance and then i look after the creative the brand as well as like the marketing and product development

14:26Rochelle: which lets you i suppose concentrate on your skill set i think it's so important i think that's when it's so nice to have a co-founder if you've both got your clear roles and responsibility

14:36Karlee Zhang: it works really well yeah it's like a left brain and like right brain situation but it also takes years of I think practice of communications between each other to handle the conflict and also to be confident in yourself and also leading a team because sometimes I feel like with business it amplifies everything that you are insecure about with yourself because it just gets thrown at you at a tenfold yeah you're so so right you're so right what did those early days

15:07Rochelle: look like in terms of funding and being able to bring it to life because obviously I can imagine with something like this um and the kind of I suppose the technical aspect behind it I can imagine there was quite a few revisions and prototypes and getting the product absolutely right what was it did you did you go for funding did you or did you use savings how did that look

15:30Karlee Zhang: for you yeah so in the beginning um we spent a year and a half doing like r &d and research and especially going into the asian markets where shower filtration was more of a household item right so interesting yeah and then um we took some of our own like uh savings so 60k in the beginning and most of that went into r &d because and there was not much left for marketing and hence you know the free trial and all of that but you know really in the beginning days we did a lot everything pretty much ourselves I had designed the Shopify written out like I mean or social media I did it myself customer service early emails on Klaviyo and yeah I mean you can you name it Omer was setting the ads but I think I'm really really grateful to the first initial customers who stayed with us and gave us a shot because what we wanted to try early on was subscription and it was because you know with shower filtration you always have to change the refills right of course so we're like okay um if this is a barrier let's get let's get them to see if they can stay with us for a long time and that was able that subscription that healthy revenue was then able to help us continuously fund the business um bootstrapped and what what was it like

16:55Rochelle: for you at the start because you're almost like I said before which is what fascinates me about this so much is that you're almost like crossing categories with with what you've brought to market was it kind of because I've had founders on the podcast before that you know have launched businesses and they were like it's actually quite tough at the start because we're really having to educate people about almost a new category because nobody was doing it so it was quite hard for instance now if somebody wants to launch uh you know a different variation or take on a product like hello clean you're kind of there as a look what hello clean did we're going to do it like this but we're going to do it different but before you were brought to life no one was doing as far as i know anyway as far as i can remember what you were doing in that crossing the category so was it was it a challenge to i may be at a retail level or a buying level was it Was it a challenge to get people to understand what it is you're bringing to life?

17:55Rochelle: I think it's a challenge like throughout. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:59Karlee Zhang: Yeah, with retail, they were like, yeah, we'll put you in the tools section. And we're like, no, it's not in the tool section. People are coming because they have hair issues. Yes. Like, please take the whole range because we also have body scalp as well as the tools in them. They're designed to work together as an ecosystem. Yeah. So I remember having that conversation with Sephora and we were tiny and the buyers were like, I'm not sure this is going to work out. Same with like Selfridges and stuff. We're like, just give us a chance, you know, we'll prove you wrong.

18:30Rochelle: So you really have to fight to keep your brand together in those. You would think I remember the naivety in me when I'm like, OK, I've got a baby brand and we launch in, you know, we launch in Boots. And as it grows and there's new NPD and different things that we then bring to store. I just want it all sat together where my little cocoa is we should all be on one shelf or we should all be on one sort of you know end of our gondola and that's how it looks but actually different you'll talk to a different buyer about a different category because it doesn't cross over in some stores and I think I really underestimated that when I launched a brand I'm like what do you mean can't we just I don't want that over there with you know we had vitamins at one point I don't want it over there with the supplements i want it together with and it's a really hard sort of fight

19:18Karlee Zhang: to keep those products together 100 and i remember one of the arguments that i had used on one of the calls was that consumers don't think in categories they do not only businesses do so you did really

19:33Rochelle: well there up front were they were they quite willing to give you a chance or was that a bit of a battle there was some back and forth um but I feel like I'm always quite like a nagger like I will always keep nagging you until I get what I want and they're like can we just give her this please because she's not going to leave us alone annoyed with her yeah just do whatever just say yes so she stops calling me I recognize myself there that's me they have to they're like I can't answer the phone to her one more time um I want to talk about doing everything yourself because you started Hello Clean 2019 when you started um and I suppose because yourself and Omar had very different strengths what meant what that meant was that you were able to build I suppose a lot yourselves so because that you we spoke before about he was sort of operations and finance and you were creative and sort of all the front-facing stuff when it then came to hiring when you got to the place where you're like okay we can we're going to look to take on our first hire and you know that first role what did that look like for you if you had your sort of clearer what was what was the first hire and why was that important yeah first hire uh was social media and

20:57Karlee Zhang: content right just because of the nature of our business being direct to consumer it has to be a content-driven like business whether it's telling the story in an organic way or it's through ads but it's education it's the awareness um so yeah we were working with like um freelancer for like social media as well as a little bit for brand um and then that lasted for about a year or so and then the official first hire was then a um brand executive who is now the brand manager

21:33Rochelle: wow I'm still you're still with them I love it when that happens because I suppose they have such a big understanding of what it is you do and they're on the mission with you with that um with the I'm always interested when people have like a social first strategy because it's what a lot of businesses do now because it's super important we have the access to be able to use those platforms what what was your strategy when it came to social was it a sort of always on approach when it came to posting was it constant education how did that look how did you because that's one thing that I think you did really well is sort of stand out above the noise your social you know what the content that you delivered just sort of really stuck out and I think that's what every young founder wants right they want to make sure that their social game is strong so they can sort of make way in a world full of noise what was your plan when it came to social

22:31Karlee Zhang: social at least in the last couple of years i've done it has changed so much as you've seen when i used to be social media manager this was in 2018 it was very much looking at content verticals and posting schedules and monday we're doing this um wednesday we're doing swatches um friday we're putting like a creator content or something like that and i feel like at least with my business that's really changed and we no longer approach it this way we approach it with a brand first and narrative right so um beyond just oh doing a campaign for a launch but what story are we going to tell this quarter so for the three months to come if we can establish a narrative that's going to be going around then naturally the launch of the product would fall into it The events would also need to ladder into that narrative.

23:27Karlee Zhang: Whoever we work with on an influencer perspective on how we educate and what type of hooks we use are also going to go into that. So I think as long as that's quite sealed, then you will not run out of things to post rather than going with a social team and being like, OK, today we need to highlight three benefits of niacinamide. I'm just randomly saying. Yeah, yeah.

23:52Rochelle: But you're always feeding it. it's like a holistic approach so you're feeding into the whole picture rather than like you say certain specific social call outs it all has to bleed into one story and I think that's what a lot of brands look to do now is that building this world and every time there's like a different part of that world and it all needs to bleed in to another how long do those concepts take in like if we're if we're like measuring time how long does it take you to come up with those concepts from like the thought to the execution um thought to execution roughly about two three

24:28Karlee Zhang: weeks so it would be myself and our creative lead and the brand lead kind of like um aligning all on this before it goes to the wider team i mean that's and that's impressive that's a really good sort of pacey amount of time yeah we're fast when we talk about the decision that you made where

24:48Rochelle: obviously you know being bootstrapped and starting the company in that way and you let people receive the shower filter without paying up front um you gave them that 30-day window which was you know that which was a way of making it work when you when the business has then grown and now there is that marketing budget to play with what comes first for you where do you notice that the biggest reward is when it comes to marketing i think with marketing short term wise you will

25:22Karlee Zhang: always see the conversion drivers um like lead to an immediate sale for instance these are the ads right yeah um they're the emails um but i think in the longer run for any of the brands to um last I think in this very competitive world, I think it needs to go beyond that. And it's looking at holistic 360 and whether it's sometimes even working with creators. We have two sets of briefs, creators for pure taste making where we don't have any sales expectations versus the ones that have sales. But I always say we have to have a healthy balance because too much of conversion can ultimately come in and damage the brand.

26:08Karlee Zhang: but too much of um brand stuff it can also become quite fluffy in the end of the day we need to make the numbers meet to yes sustain the business that's so interesting i've never heard anybody

26:21Rochelle: put it like that so you you work with maybe creators based on some are tastemakers but they might not necessarily convert and then some you use for pure conversion yeah that's really smart because i think people assume that everybody has to convert and that's it's everything has to lead to a sale but there's merit in trusting someone's credibility and if they like something that you feel that you will too but that might not necessarily generate an instant sale but long

26:50Karlee Zhang: term yeah it could I think for long term and um especially I think with creators it's I think gone are the days where people are like oh this is great and then everyone's like check out yes um It's people who follow creators is because there's something about their personality or the way they appeal that they really trust. And they want to stay in this conversation. And I think as a brand, you cannot rush the sales process. I would rather much work with the same creator three, four times. And maybe that's when the actual sales comes. But we build a much more genuine relationship together rather than.

27:29Rochelle: Yeah, it's having that authenticity. but it's really interesting that you say that as a founder because a lot of the time brands are just out for okay did that work did it convert no who's next you know and I think it's like you say having that real brand association with an influencer that's when I feel like I really believe the story and I think it's I think and people can spot it now a mile off like you say gone are the days where you go hi guys buy this and everyone buy it that just doesn't life doesn't work like that we're all too savvy it's a saturated market um I want to talk about Dragon's Den because that was in 2023 yes I always feel like that is probably one of the bravest things a founder can do is have that Dragon's Den moment because to me it feels I mean it's terrifying isn't it the idea of like knowing how much you believe in something and the idea of pitching it in front of people that you know when it's a tv show and it's kind of not like a typical pitch is it there's a lot of pantomime that goes with it right because it's a tv show tell me about that moment and what it felt like putting yourself in that position well I think you know if you let it if you ask me on a

28:53Karlee Zhang: personal level of being outside of founders shoes yes to go on tv i would probably be like no never don't like being in front of camera but you know you do it for the business and you put the business before this is what happens when your brand takes over right it's like okay this is going to be a great opportunity for the brand here i go yeah and um we had filmed it in 2022 you know you do it the way in advance. And I had remembered that they had given us a call and said, oh, you know, we're from Dragons Den. I was like, I just moved to the UK. I'm like, what is Dragons Den? And they're like, oh, we have some questions about your financials.

29:33I was like, what if you're a

29:35Karlee Zhang: scam? And they're like, no, we're going to send you an email. But, you know, I'm really glad, all in all that I had gone on it because it's it's one of those moments where

29:47Rochelle: it puts you outside of your comfort zone yes and it puts your brand in front of 15 minute

29:54Karlee Zhang: BBC prime time that no amount of paid media will ever be able to do that and because it's an actual show that there it's there I guess their job to make you uncomfortable so if you're able to withstand it it brings a lot of credibility to your brand so but I think you know something that I definitely learned from that experience is um I feel like maybe me or sometimes I see it with a lot of my female friends when we're nervous we're not comfortable with silences and we want to talk through the silence and explain ourselves yes but I remember before going on that show I was like Carly just remember don't try to over explain say your thing say clear and just zip it yes do you

30:41Rochelle: know what that is it's such good advice because we've all been there and when we're kind of over explaining we're passionate about something we don't want to leave anything out then all of a sudden it's like this big word salad and you're just talking and you can't you can't then pull it back I always think that's good life advice too when you're on you know have an important meeting on a call and it might be negotiation time don't be scared of silence because actually someone else will fill it so if you leave it someone else will fill it and you can that's quite a good boundary to have for yourself precisely um so let's say steven bartlett ultimately offered a hundred thousand pounds with the final agreement in the den structured around 7.5 percent after some quite full-on negotiating how i mean no one wants to go on that show and not be offered any money right that's ultimately how did it feel sort of at that point with Stephen getting Stephen's

31:37Karlee Zhang: go ahead oh it felt really good it was really nice because um before going on the show they were like oh which dragon did you want it's like Stephen because he gets it yes and it was just a big confidence booster what advice would you give because it's such an interesting take now

31:56Rochelle: and lots of people do I mean the applications you can I can only imagine must be through the roof when it comes to a show like that what would your advice be if someone said to you I've got the call up and I've been asked to go on would there be I suppose any advice before and after like how

32:10Karlee Zhang: to handle it there is an advice I can give in terms of preparation right um I had done a little bit of color theory with the post-it stamps so I thought about all the potential questions that they can ask so green was going to be around um finance yeah pink was going to be around the future of the company orange was going to be around product development and i still have a photo of it my living room wall i stuck it all oh i love that and then i think uh one week before that it's just looking at it so it's immediately like if you ask me that question even if it's worded in a certain way i know immediately the three type of bullet points that i would talk

32:54Rochelle: about that's so and you did that all with color theory yes that's so that is such good advice i love that that's so so brilliant because it is it's just being ready because you can and that's what i think that's where that show is exposing because you can see founders sort of and you know entrepreneurs crumble when they know exactly what they're talking about but the nerves and the situation and the environment that it's in can just get the better of you and then you've forgotten everything yeah just don't forget to breathe yeah make sure you breathe and make sure you remember those bullet points because there's nothing worse than walking out of a situation like that and thinking oh shit I forgot to say this and I forgot to say that that's the worst feeling ever yeah

33:36Karlee Zhang: but I mean after the show it was always been like super positive I remember people like um DMing me I don't have much of a following but they were like um where did you get your green top

33:48Rochelle: never mind all of that serious stuff I love your outfit I'm like Zara I love that so much it must be also a different thing and I always think I've sort of worked in and around media but like not coming from that background as you say if it wasn't anything to do with your business you probably would never have been on camera weird all of a sudden people being exposed to you overnight particularly when like you say when these shows record there's normally like a good time before it actually makes the telly a year later it must be weird overnight people going oh I see I've seen you on that and sort of being exposed to everything you

34:26Karlee Zhang: do and love yeah but in the end of the day I think it's work you know I see that you do it it's it is part of me it is part of Carly but it is more Hello Clean than Carly yes yes and tell me

34:40Rochelle: what did it do for that moment do for hello clean was it an instant like because i've had um i've had founders on the podcast before that have been on shark tank or you know or the den and done something similar and instantly the phone sort of blew up overnight and actually they wasn't prepared for what came next as in logistically being able to feel because there was such a spotlight on them by being on that show that actually they wasn't really ready in the back end to fulfill orders and you know because sometimes it can really blow up for people overnight

35:16Karlee Zhang: so for that year um we grew 600 percent gosh um and i think you know part of it was um the immediate effects of dragons then but we kind of anticipated that this was going to happen so out of the very limited amount of like cash that we had we invested into you know having the products ready having the ads in place having dragons then ads in place working with creators saying that they've seen this on dragons then and showing their experience and then all of

35:51Rochelle: that to then really compound the effect which is probably why having that year for it to play out it almost gave you a long time to get the strategy in place as to how you'd use that as a tool to your advantage.

36:05Karlee Zhang: Definitely. I think it all happens for a reason. If it had launched in that episode, if it had launched in 2022, I don't think we would have been ready.

36:13Rochelle: Yeah, that's so interesting. So there you go. If you're thinking of going on it, use that year to get yourself ready. So I just want to ask you, when it comes to fundraising, was that something that you always wanted to do or something that you kind of you wanted to hold control for as long as possible?

36:31Karlee Zhang: When we first started having conversations about fundraising, I always had like a big question mark, especially with some of the more traditional short term investors that we've met. So these are more, you know, the venture capitals. It felt like, you know, they had a playbook. They had a system and it's get the brand because we worked with some similar brands. Let's scale it and then let's make an exit. and I was like I'm not really sure if that would fully be applicable to us just because it's kind of like it's a weird brand it doesn't fall under any of the category and also I wasn't really aligned with the type of like um short-term thinking and I think you know in the end of the day right like capital money it doesn't have feelings but when it comes to running a team it's all about the people it's the partnership and how we are going to be interacting with each other not when oh you know sales are through the roof or you're growing by 600 but if you are a bit slower this year are you going to have a conversation with me that um starts with an accusatory tone like a blaming tone yes or are we going to be collaborative together and try to to work it out.

37:54Karlee Zhang: And so VC wrote was definitely like, I think, a no-no. And also spoke to some and they were like, oh, I think, you know, Hello Clean can be great in B &Q. And I'm like, but I just spent like an entire hour explaining to you about hair and skin issues. So I'm like, okay, this is definitely like a bit of a red flag situation. But luckily, I think, you know, we met Brita. They reached out to us and it was like one of these investors that you don't expect to have. And they were just like, we really love what you're building. We really love the category. Brita as a brand, we will never get into something called Brita Beauty.

38:35Karlee Zhang: But we trust you to do your own thing. And we can give you the resources as well as the knowledge, as well as the support and expertise that you need. and in the end of the day it's a 60 year old kind of like family business so they are definitely more patient I would say compared to the other financial models in my opinion I bet I bet that

38:59Rochelle: is like the dream fit isn't it and I suppose sometimes it is holding your nerve and just waiting for the right partner to come because it really is and we discuss it a lot on this podcast that it is a marriage you would call it a marriage I will call it speed dating in the early phases

39:16Karlee Zhang: um because you really try to read people the best you can and I feel like a board room can only tell you so much you have to grow together you have to grow together and how do you grow if you don't even know each other so it's like go to dinner go to drinks and it's what you would look for you You know, when you're dating, are they nice to the waiter? Are they rude? Are they like talking on the phone while they're speaking? Because these are all telltale signs about who a person really is.

39:47Rochelle: You're so right. You're so right. And I think it's just making sure that you don't do that before you're ready. I want to talk about how the business and the brand itself has grown because, you know, we started at filter and then into shower care. You've expanded into hair, scalp, body care. and now I suppose you're increasingly talking about shower care as a category in its own right was that always the plan or is that kind of where the journey is taking you um it's always been the

40:19Karlee Zhang: vision um consumers don't think in categories they come to us and they say oh you know my scalp feels dry or um there's a really annoying like red patch on my leg but in the end of the day it's the water that is the common thread with some of these issues so we obviously we can't fix everything but we can make the water work for you right and I think that you know something I always want to be transparent about is you know the shower filters are great and they reduce the chlorine as well as the heavy metals as well as a certain amount of scale but it's not a water softener so if you are living in a hard water area you need both you need the topicals as well as the filtration right filtration it prevents and it reduces some of the impurities from getting in contact with you but having actual wet products that are formulated to work with your water are going to be able to deal with the issues that you're already experiencing that's interesting

41:23Rochelle: yeah and I suppose that's then when it becomes that whole again holistic approach because it isn't just the filter it's it's more than that how how does it feel if you look at hello clean back in 2019 to fast forward to 2026 how does it feel to see that growth I suppose as a business but also for you as a founder too it feels quite surreal because so many things have happened

41:55Karlee Zhang: and you almost can't keep track. But overall, I think it's made me a more confident person. It's built a lot of really meaningful relationships in my life. And it's also great to see that, you know, I've always wanted to work in marketing. I've always wanted to work in creatives. Before starting Hello Clean, I applied for a bunch of jobs. But, you know, those jobs didn't work out, but I ended up doing a lot of these jobs inside my own company,

42:24Rochelle: which is every job yeah and has your idea since then you know and it probably in one breath seems like forever ago but equally I can imagine not that long ago too has your idea of success changed since then and now?

42:47Karlee Zhang: Not really, because

42:52Karlee Zhang: I, first of all, don't think I am successful. And I hope that I don't ever come to a point where I think, oh, I'm so successful. Because that's like, you know, that way I can keep climbing, I can keep growing. Well, as if you already consider yourself successful, then what is the next thing to look up look forward to I think sometimes we find when you

43:14Rochelle: when you're reaching different goals like you said you don't ever want to get comfortable or complacent because then what's next but when you're reaching different goals along the way or your goals might change you know some people think I want to hit this many sales I want to hit this many followers I want to you know focus on different goals but actually when they're in it and maybe those sales and those followers have happened their idea of a successful life or a successful business is one that means that they can take a holiday in peace or they can you know how they want to feel as a founder and their idea of a success as a founder has changed

43:48Karlee Zhang: from way back then for sure and also the other two side is success on how other people view you yeah or success in how do you view yourself or the previous work that you put out there and maybe to give an example for for instance with our team we don't really look at views or likes or even comments too much in terms of social we care more about the shares and saves and these are not public yes um information it just shows that it's more valuable the um content

44:19Rochelle: or the hook or whatever we're putting out there but you're almost it's like almost word of mouth the shares always mean that someone's saying have you seen this we need to look at this yeah i suppose it's more impactful right and then i ask each guest to leave a tip almost one piece of tangible advice that you think someone that is maybe listening to this right now and is kind of in awe of your story and thinks I'd love to build something I don't know in a similar vein or enter a category that kind of didn't really exist um what would that advice be

44:57Karlee Zhang: um don't start a business based on trends and vibes those can come and you can tap into these conversations and tap into vibes but if everyone this year is doing a cold plunge business is it really the right time for you to also get into that cold plunge business Because in the end of the day, it's whoever throws the most money at it is going to win. But maybe it would be worth looking at something that is unsexier, but you know that there's a real need for it. And then the vibes can come when you can try to make it more sexy.

45:39Rochelle: Yeah, that's such, yeah, it's such a good point. You're so, so right. It's the untapped things that people haven't quite, quite got there yet. And that's, that's exactly your story, right? it's you've made the unsexy sexy and that that's what it's all about thank you thank you so much i've loved hearing about everything it's such such an incredible story such an incredible business and like i said you've made the unsexy sexy so well done you thank you thank you don't forget to follow us on apple and spotify or wherever you get your podcast to make sure that you don't miss out because next time i'm going to be talking to another incredible lady who launched.

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