Simplifying Complexity: How Definely Changes the Way Lawyers Work - Nnamdi Emelifeonwu - S9E34

0:00It's all about making complex information, complex workflows simple. First and foremost, you have to go through that hard experience of building those underlying tools. And we were very lucky that actually before the world started screaming and shouting generative AI, we were building really difficult solutions. But we were doing it the hard way, utilizing different technologies, different methodologies of techniques to build solutions that solve problems. Any company building something, ultimately, you're building for somebody. You're building for an end user. You're building a solution that you want and you hope people use and people love and people come back to time and time again.

0:34On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Namdi Emifeu. Namdi is the co-founder and CEO of Definely. Named as one of 50 of the fastest growing tech companies, Definely was founded by two former Magic Circle lawyers. Namdi is a former trainee solicitor and associate at Freshfields and his co-founder, Fergus McDade, set out to make legal documents more accessible, addressing the number one issue associated with drafting, reviewing and understanding legal files. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Nandi. Thank you very much for having me, Rob. Great to be here. Oh, it's a huge pleasure to have you on the show.

1:09And you know, we've got a lot to unpack in today's episode because it's a truly inspiring journey and everything you've been doing. But before we go into all of that, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast which is on the scale of one to ten with ten being very real what would you rate the hit tv series suits in terms of its reality of the law on the scale of one to ten if you've seen it i haven't seen it i think i've seen one episode a long long time ago i think the theory of it sort of is is fine in terms of you know they do do legal work purport to do legal work but it's just the timelines you know i think each episode they do something that usually takes probably about nine months and they wrap it up into one episode as a transactional lawyer, which is what I was, and even on the dispute side as well.

1:58It seems as though disputes can go on for years and they try and wrap it up into one episode. So I would probably give it a three or four based on that. A very justified three or four. And I tried to describe to friends, it's almost like a heart surgeon going to work one day and then they're suddenly a GP and then they're suddenly a hand doctor expert you wouldn't necessarily want that but all good entertainment all right let's start at the beginning then namdi tell us a bit about your background and career journey sure so i'm a former lawyer um so i you know studied law university then did a master's in law uh and i decided to go into law because i wasn't you know very good with numbers at the time all my friends were going to banking and i knew i wasn't very good with numbers and uh the other alternative was medicine or engineering.

2:45And again, I wasn't very good with math-based subjects. So law was sort of the natural fit for me. I was lucky enough to secure a training contract at Freshfields. So I joined there as a trainee solicitor. I qualified there and I qualified into the finance team where I worked as an associate for a further two and a half years. And it was during my time at Freshfields as a trainee that I met a colleague of mine who came over from A &O at the time, Fergus. He was a newly qualified solicitor when I was a training solicitor. And he and I sort of worked together on the first deal we did together and got to know each other really well.

3:24I really enjoyed my time at Freshfield. I got to work with some very, very intelligent people and some really, really high profile sort of transactions, transactions you wake up and then you read about on the Financial Times and you hear on the news. So it was really sort of just an incredible experience to be surrounded in that sort of environment. Yeah, no, absolutely. Cutting edge work. And I was just giggling to myself inside when you mentioned accounting. My late grandfather, who ran his own law firm, always said, you should be an accountant, laddie. And I didn't go in that direction. I was terrible with numbers as well.

3:54But let's dig a little bit deeper then just at the sort of life at the Magic Circle, because you were a trainee there. And then you were an associate of Fresh Roads, one of the best law firms in the world, undoubtedly. What did you most enjoy about training at a Magic Circle law firm? yeah i remember going um as a student to a lot of these open days and i remember listening to it was a former chair or managing partner sorry of um of violence and he gave really good advice he said you know the best training you can do um as a lawyer is training at a really good um you know uk law firm because at the time it was when sort of the us law firms were sort of trying to make their presence into the uk and he said that's where you're going to get the most structured training and you know uh you know they have you know these uk firms because they're more established in the uk they have a lot more resources i'm not sure that still holds true because i know the us firms have made a lot of sort of way into the into the uk market now but at that time they were still very early on and so the uk law firms uh you know had a lot more resources and i just felt as though i would get the best training uh you know environment and i think i i was very lucky and i think i was right you know i think thresholds offered and a lot i got a very you know a wide sort of range of different practice areas.

5:02You know, you could do up to six seats of thresholds. You know, so I got to do various different, go to various different departments. I got to go on an international succumb to Amsterdam. So it was just a really great experience to have the breadth of range of work that a firm, you know, an international law firm like thresholds do to get exposed to that. Yeah, and plenty of exposure and great diversity, as you said, in terms of super early on into training. We've talked a lot about law. We haven't talked about tech yet. So that's a large part of what you're getting up to. So where did your interest in tech originally stem from and what inspired you to co-founder finally?

5:39Yeah, so I wouldn't necessarily say I had an interest in tech. I was very much interested in being an entrepreneur. And that was really the main driving force for me starting a business. when I actually qualified as a solicitor during my month off where, you know, people sort of go on holiday and take their vacation leave and travel the world or whatever they do, pick up a new hobby. I actually went to Nigeria, which is where I'm originally from. And I set up a retail, I guess, pop-up bench in the middle of Lagos market. So anyone who knows Lagos, Lagos is very, very hot. you know it gets to sort of 30 degrees you know during the day and I'm there standing in the middle of it with like a retail a bench full of like you know goods that I wanted to sell because I was the whole concept was I thought I could bring the concept of pound land to Africa and start that sort of concept so not only that I also arranged meetings with some of the big you know retailers like Procter & Gamble and Unilever and Nestle to try and see if that was a viable venture.

6:50Eventually, I realized that the effects would have killed the business. But I always had that ambition and that interest in entrepreneurship. Even as a lawyer, I remember when I started my training contracts, my supervisor at the time, my first supervisor, after about six weeks, said to me, you're great at being a trainee, but I just don't think you're going to be a lawyer for much longer because I was always talking about business. The tech element really came um because you know of the problem that we solved and realized that actually this this made it was a natural uh sort of uh synergy for sort of the interest i had and the and the opportunity that was there yeah no and again thanks for giving us that overview of your background i was just sat here my mother-in-law was um was was born in nigeria actually in joss and so you know when we used to go there and you know i know about okra star lager all of that great stuff um yeah really really really good times and memories and i also on my legal recruiting business have helped a lot of sort of um lawyers from nigeria transition to london because they have such rich experience particularly in the energy infrastructure projects um markets as well okay so let's go into defining then because it's a huge success story and congratulations but definely delivers ai tools for lawyers in a word but as the ceo and co-founder for folks that might have been living under a rock tell us about what the finally actually does sure so define me um is a productivity suite mainly focused at you know working on complex transaction documents so really high complexity low volume the sort of you know documents i used to work on as a lawyer when i was a finance associate and it really purports to help lawyers you know you know work efficiently within those documents it sits within the microsoft word interface so it was very important that we met our you know the end user the lawyers where they do most of their work which is obviously within sort of that word uh ecosystem uh and it helps lawyers create drafts and and uh you know review contracts so we have a variety of different tools that do different things but in essence what they do is you know you can essentially access you know precedent wording uh you know utilizing our vault product via your dms you can then utilize our draft product to read a contract edit a contract interact with a contract and then our proof product allows you to sanitize it and clean it up before sending it off to to your um to your you know to either to your client or to your colleagues we've then sort of leveraged ai and embedded ai within that utilizing our our enhanced product which essentially is our agentic framework to allow you know the agents to access those different products so that now then rather than doing those things manually you can actually now do them autonomously utilizing agents.

9:31Yeah and it's very impressive and I talk very openly on the show about the importance of mission-led companies now but also in the future and as you know Clio partnered with us and we get behind their mission to transform the legal experience for all. Here at the show we're inspiring legal minds transforming legal futures and Definely is on a mission to simplify the way the world understands information. So what is the meaning behind your mission? Yeah, so the finally, for those who aren't aware, it actually started off and I mentioned Fergus early on. So when I was a training solicitor, Fergus, who was the associate I mentioned earlier on, he, you know, we joined at the same time, and he's actually visually impaired.

10:07And so, you know, he was at the time, one of the few registered blind solicitors in the UK. So I was just always quite curious as to how somebody like him could do the same sort of work that I was doing as a, you know, you know, there's nothing wrong with my site. And it was hard enough trying to access the information in these contracts because they're usually multiple pages long. They're usually quite complex and convoluted and trying to access, as anybody would know, information in a contract is hard enough. But when it's a finance, it's a 300-page facilities segment or an SBA, that makes it even more complicated.

10:41And so I was always really just intrigued by how Fergus was able to do that. Of course, he couldn't um do it in an efficient way because of his disability and although he had various work arounds like text to speech which he used it just wasn't really productive uh for him so he and i brainstormed uh you know and got our heads together and uh the spark that we came up with um i went away to build a sort of you know proof of concept or prototype of that of that idea and realized very quickly that actually that was something that could help me also access uh the information easily as well. And, you know, as I said, there's nothing wrong with my side.

11:15So I figured if I could use it, then pretty much every lawyer could use it. And indeed, anyone working on contracts, not just lawyers. So I think one of the things that we're really, really proud of is that this problem started to really help somebody who was marginalized, and where there was really no solution to help him. And, you know, it's now being utilized and helping thousands, you know, tens of thousands of lawyers globally, you know, sort of, you know, read and understand and access information in these contracts more efficiently. And for us, we think that actually it can be used outside of law.

11:46The technology can be utilized anywhere where contracts are read, not just lawyers' rights, tax memorandums, accounts and reports, really any sort of sector where you read contracts, we think the technology can be applicable. And the sky's the limit with that. And it's great because everyone can find and complain about a problem, but not everyone can show the grit, determination to go all in to actually solve that problem. And it's a wonderful story like you said through meeting fergus and what you've been able to to achieve so again thanks for giving us a bit of insight into that and i kind of that touches probably on the early stages my next question is actually going to be talking us through the stages of actually building defiantly from that starting point to where you are today um you know is defiantly now what you envisioned it to be when you first started building the tech company given the particular explosion we've seen in this ai revolution of late yeah it's a really good question i think anyone that knows me at the start you know I thought you know I don't think you ever dream of you know what happens uh when you have an idea and seek to bring that idea to life you you know there is no blueprint um I don't have a entrepreneurial background and as I sort of mentioned earlier on I don't have a tech background either so I really you know there was really no blueprint or no expectation other than the fact that I knew I wanted to try and you know I wanted to start a business I wanted to bring a company into life and I had this idea which seemed really really um you know fitting uh with the skills I had and sort of the ambition and the energy I had um you know when you look back at it it's very easy to say you know yes you know all of this was to be expected because um you know we did the right things but the reality is that everything we did you know um we there was an element of luck you know we had to you know there's various times and when I you know ran out of money and you know had I not been lucky enough to find investors to invest in the company we'd never would have survived there was various times where things went wrong uh you know when we were trying to sort of pitch to you know law firms or corporate legal teams and you know again had we not been lucky to have you know a champion within that organization we probably wouldn't have won that cup that customer right so um a lot of it is you know obviously working hard and having a great team around me um and being able to you know really hopefully motivate them to you know build this probe the solution but a lot of it you know is is luck and we're really sort of lucky to be in an environment where you know legal tech generally is just exploding and it's really really great for every stakeholder not just the end user but the law firms the vendors and really anyone you know you're seeing a lot of investing uh sort of interest in this sector as well i think that that's growing the market and expanding the market and the opportunity for really everyone involved.

14:28So we're really excited. Yeah, and we also see a really exciting time for legal tech. And we're going to talk a little bit more about sort of the investment journey as well. But entrepreneurship's hard, right? And, you know, I think it's very easy to kind of see the headlines, see the success. But you were sort of alluding to there, and it's what I wanted to ask next, actually. Some of those challenges, the obstacles you faced when building the finally, because there may be other legal tech entrepreneurs listening to this that feel they have this great idea, but they can't break through. So just give us a bit of a flavor of some of the challenges and obstacles and maybe how you overcame them.

15:02Yeah, I think, I mean, particularly as it pertains to legal tech, I think one thing people don't realize is just how long the buying cycle is in law. I think it's actually quite, you know, it's quite unique, actually. I don't think, you know, from what I understand, you know, and I've never, I haven't worked in any other sector, but from what I understand, other sectors are not as, you know, the time, the buying time, the process is not as lengthy as, you know, the sales process isn't as lengthy as it is in law. It can take up to, you know, 18 months sometimes, probably longer. There are customers that we've been working on for years and, you know, we still haven't signed them and, you know, it's still ongoing, right?

15:38So I think that's the first thing people don't realize. You think, you know, it's only fools and horses. It's nothing like that. You know, I always say to people, whatever timeline you have, you know, realistically add seven years. that is always the feedback I give to people because it's a really lengthy process it's also a very lonely process as well you know in the early days where it was pretty much you know just myself trying to figure everything out and you know didn't really know what I was doing and you know you have to have that sort of self-drive and that self-motivation to keep going when there is there are no answers there's no sort of you know easy sort of book to read to say okay this is what I do next you have to figure figure everything out yourself so you have to really be also quite curious as actually not be afraid to go out and try things and ask questions and ask for help importantly as well uh you know our company would not be anywhere where it is if it wasn't for all the people who sort of helped us uh to get here be it my team be it my um investors be our customers um so yeah it's it's it's a really really difficult um you know i'm not going to sort of i think there's a tendency to um people make entrepreneurship like glorify it and really focused on all the great things and the successes and the highlights of it but the reality is that those things are actually very very few and far between the real real reality is that actually most of it is quite boring and quite you know it's a drudge it's drudgerous right it's it's not fun it's like a lot of it is your your back is against the wall and you're trying to sort of find find solutions to problems you're facing every day but that's why the story cuts through i remember you know and that's why you know you hit the headlines when these successes happen because when i set up my businesses i remember a mentor said to me rob if you have 50 good days in a year you've had a tremendous year uh like an outstanding year and to your point there you know the more risk you take potentially the luckier you get as well and and staying in the game and i love that you talked about self-accountability and self-belief because i remember again a mentor said to me very early if it's meant to be it's up to me you have to take self-accountability particularly when the chips are down you get those knockbacks and i think it's really sage advice in terms of lawyering.

17:45And there's some law firms that I would still love to recruit and transact with, you know, nine years in to the industry, you know, that we still haven't quite broken through. And I think if you see this as staying in the game, nurturing, fostering relationships, adding value, really becoming client centric with what you're doing, eventually they will convert. And you've touched on before a bit about defining your solutions, but I want to go deeper because what you're building is truly innovative and it is really helping day-to-day life of legal professionals. So you have the following solutions to finally vault, draft, enhanced cascade proof and pdf so can you just touch on these sort of briefly and a bit more about what the solutions offer sure so i guess the best way to describe the solutions is the chronology of how they actually work when you're you know a contractor you know a sort of facilities agreement right the first thing you want to do is you know create and draft that contract in accordance with you know whoever you advise in their sort of wishes and you know the sort of what they're trying to achieve.

18:41Typically what would happen is that you would go to either a senior lawyer and say, hey, is there a precedent we've worked on previously with this particular client? Can we have that precedent? And we would use that as a starting point. That's what Vault tries to emulate. It accesses your DMS. And you can actually now, rather than having to go speak to somebody, you can actually just type in a few key searches and it comes up with, okay, this is the fitting sort of provision or clause of definition or even document as a precedent. And it sort of has your gold standards that you can sort of choose as a firm and utilize that.

19:16Once you've then done that process, Draft, which is our sort of our first product that we launch, what that does is it's USPs to allow you to just stay in one place. And from where you are, you can interrogate the contract as well as manipulate the contract. So what that means is that I can actually in that 300 page contract, I can be on page 10. And from there, I can read the entirety of that contract, as well as any related contract, as well as edit any part of that contract without ever having to leave page 10. Then you have, once I've done that, I've created it, I've reviewed it, negotiated, drafted it.

19:48I don't want to clean it up before I send it off to my client or maybe to the partner who's, you know, or to the more senior lawyers. That's where proof comes in. So that's a proofreading solution that allows you to sanitize the contract, you things like square brackets that are missing, if there are any undefined terms to remove all of those issues. And then finally, our PDF solution essentially is what Draft is, but for PDF contracts, as we know, we tend to get a lot of PDF contracts and they can be quite tricky to review or to navigate through. So it brings a lot of that functionality that you have in Draft within PDF.

20:24And then Enhancer Cascade is our AI offering. So as I mentioned, Enhanced the way we think about AI is that AI really, really works if you have the underlying tools for which those agents to call upon, right? So the reason our enhanced product works so well is because we have vaults, we have drafts, we have proof, and now they can call upon the best tools, which are these underlying products we have, to do the task at hand, right? And then Cascade is a first of its kind, which we're really, really excited about. So this tracks the consequential changes that happen when you do something to a contract.

21:00So let's say I change the definition of the financial indebtedness. It can say, okay, now I've done that, I may want to go and look at the clause financial indebtedness. I may want to go look at my change of control provision, my events of defaults, my reps on warranties, and it tracks the first, second and third layers of changes throughout the contract as a result of making a change, a particular part of that contract. And that is so, so valuable because I've interviewed professional liability lawyers and you know one word can potentially cost billions and so that that level of quality of what you built is is fantastic and okay you you talk about sort of defiantly making and accessing and understanding information within legal documents simple i love how you sort of describe those workflows there and i always talk about you want fusion rather than confusion when you're trying to implement and do things but how is to finally delivering on that what would you say separates you in terms of that real ease of understanding information yeah i think for For us, it's all about, you know, understanding the problem and going really deep into that problem, right?

22:00We have been working with sort of lawyers over the last five years, really going really deep into understanding the way they work on these contracts. We are fortunate enough to work with some of the biggest, you know, law firms and corporate legal departments globally, you know, the likes of, you know, A &O Sherman, Slaughter and May, DLA Piper, you know, Evershed, you know, Cravath, but also the likes of like JP Morgan, Barclays, Ikea. So we've really worked with these companies to understand the problems that their lawyers have when working on sort of complex contracts. And we've worked with them and added all of those, you know, the feedback we've received from them over the years, you know, into our roadmap and and work with them to build solutions to solve those problems that are, and solutions that are really tailored to the problems as opposed to just being generic.

22:54So the way we think about sort of what we do is that we really go, we focus on going deep and really understanding the workflows. And for us, if you can do that, that's how you simplify. It's all about making complex information, complex workflows simple. And for us, it's all about simplifying that and coming out with the best sort of, not just the best solutions, but also introducing those solutions with the best UI, for example, the best user experience, so that ultimately what you're doing is creating a solution that the best fits for the end user and the problem that they have. I love that because you're exceptionally customer and client focused there, and that obviously builds trust.

23:33And you can be specific. Listeners will be sick and tired of me saying it, but specific is terrific. When you've read that, it's so, so true. and that sort of inch wide and mile deep really going in onto the heart of the problem. So I'm going to be more specific then. You've talked about that, but give us a couple of examples then of some of the specific pain points, both law firms and lawyers that you've sold. Yeah. So, I mean, Cascade is a very good example of that, right? You know, we realize that actually there is, you know, if I'm a junior associate, there is no, you know, there's no manual that tells me how to actually review a contract.

24:04A lot of the time I'm like, you know, spending hours and hours trying to think about you know what are the changes that happen and the sort of natural consequences that happen as a result of any edits i make uh to a contract before i send it off you know if i'm brave enough to send it off to the partner to do their final review right um and so you know cascade was one of those things those problems where we were working with lawyers and saying hey okay let's think about that workflow with you right you know yes it's not it's never going to be a hundred percent sort of uh you know you know technology you're going to still need the lawyer in the loop uh to do the final checks and make sure that the answers are sort of you know fit for purpose but we can get you 95 of the way there right so that you're not having to spend 100 of your time doing that you're spending really that five percent where you need that like really high value review uh you know but how can we utilize technology how can we use the experience that we have working with some of the biggest and best law firms and corporate legal teams globally and the technologies that we've built out over the years.

25:08How do we leverage these tools to create a problem that sort of gets you sort of, you know, a lot of the way there, right? And Cascade was that we work with our law firm, you know, customers, as well as our corporate legal teams. And we worked with them for the over the last 18 months. You know, we sat with them, we told them sort of, we went through the various workflows with them we review the contracts with them we went you know we iterated on the on the solution we you know had the first version got it you know does that do it okay yes that's good but think about this or you know add this and we did that we went through that sort of back and forth and i think it's only to your point being sort of customer centric like that and really going deep and working hand in glove with the customer uh and the end user that's how you get sort of solutions that are fit for purpose and not just trying to see, you know, what's what what problems they can solve.

25:59So we are very, very happy, you know, confident with our solutions because they're already battle tested. You know, I think one of the things that we pride ourselves in is that we are, you know, I think it's going to the times when people actually launch, you know, solutions out of the box to solve a problem, right? You know, nowadays you hear about a lot of these AI tools that are, you know, hey, we've got this AI but we want to work with customers to see what solutions they can solve. And I'm like, no, surely that is not the way to do it. Surely the way to do it is to identify the problem with that end user, go through those hard yards of solving and going deep and helping them coming up with the right solution for that and then launching and saying, hey, this is the solution for that specific problem because we've battle tested it.

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27:20If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. I think it's such valuable advice there and you make a good point. It's hard, right? Yes, it all sounds lovely, but actually it's hard because they're challenging you, but they're giving you that feedback that's fit for purpose for that market. So you'll have the right market product rather than trying to be just everything and hoping and sort of guessing demand. That is the demand telling you what you need.

27:54So I love that. Okay, I'm going to stick with being specific because we've talked about the finally vault, but let's go a bit more into that because it's a Microsoft Word add-in, an AI-powered drafting system. Brilliant. So talk us through stage by stage how the vault actually works. again for lawyers listening in first time they've heard about to finally they need to go and speak to their bosses and be like we need this yeah no absolutely so when you think about you know agents became all all the sort of you know the raw sort of probably you know about 12 18 months ago uh whatever it was and everyone got really excited about agents but then you know when you sort of take a step further and say okay it's great that we have an agent but really the way we think about agents is that for agents to really work you need an underlying tool for which that agent can call upon right if you don't have that underlying tool it's literally just essentially leveraging an lm which anybody in our opinion can do right so i think first and foremost you have to go through that hard sort of experience of building those underlying tools and that we were very lucky that actually before the world started screaming and shouting generative ai or or sort of agents we were building really difficult solutions but we were doing it the hard way it wasn't sexy it It wasn't easy.

29:01It wasn't leveraging. It was utilizing different technologies, different methodologies of techniques to build solutions that solve problems. That's how we got our drop solution. That's how we got our vault solution. That's how we got our proof solution. And then we were just very fortunate that actually now the world has sort of tuned into agents. And actually, as I said, for an agent to work, you need the underlying tools for which those agents can call upon. So that's what vault does. Vault is our agentic offering. But Vault leverages the underlying tools that we've built already to do various things.

29:34So when I'm reviewing or drafting a contract, what Enhanced does is that it can call upon Vault to say, hey, I want to draft this contract. But can you leverage DefineVault to get me the precedent to have the best sort of wording or the best document to start with? And then simultaneously, I can also call upon defining proof utilizing our Enhance offering to say, hey, can you proofread and sanitize this contract at the same time? Right. So Enhance allows our sort of agents to call upon the underlying sort of vault draft and proof tools to do various things. And that's a powerful ecosystem, isn't it?

30:12I think if you can build that and they work flawless, then, you know, it's going to be super powerful and you're going to reduce that friction. you're going to improve those workflows you're going to make a lot of life for lawyers better um again all sounds great but legal tech can be very intimidating you know we're seeing buzzwords we're seeing headlines we're seeing lots of things but there's no point building the tech unless we're getting that high level of adoption and that's actually carrying through with the results the efficiencies the pass on the gains to clients etc etc so how again specifically is to finally ensuring the tools stay sophisticated but are super easy for the lawyers to actually use so they're adopting them.

30:49Yeah. So I think, you know, and that's a really, really good point. I think there's no point having these great, you know, technology and AI has incredible opportunities, right? And there's so many things that we can do with it that we haven't even scratched the surface. But I think as it pertains to law and the legal industry, one of the biggest barriers is that actually are people utilizing these tools, A, but and also are they utilizing it then, you know, in a way where they're sort of getting the sort of ROI on them, right? And I think that's an important thing for any company, right? Any company building something, ultimately, you're building for somebody, you're building for an end user, you're building a solution that you want, and you hope people use and people love and people come back to time and time again, right?

31:31And for us, that's always been sort of key to this business. You know, when I started this company, I've always said, it's actually, you know, what we do with our customers is more important for me than trying to win new customers because actually that's how you grow a business. It's by satisfying your existing customers because guess what? They're going to come back. They're going to expand with you. They're going to grow with you. And they're probably going to increase your sort of your revenue more so than you will get from just getting new logos. Like if you think about sort of when you go fishing, right?

32:01It's all great having, you know, catching a lot of fish. But if you have a massive net, a hole at the bottom of your net, you're just losing the, you know, the fish you catch as you do so. So for us, it's always been very important to be super customer centric. You know, from the outset, we have customers all over the world. I've recently just, you know, put, we've recently just put something in place where we go and visit our customers all around the world at least once a year. We speak to our customers regularly. We go out to them to train them. We work with them to find champions to help, you know, train the champions so that they can be, you know, trainers of trainers, if that makes sense.

32:35So we work hand in glove with our customers all about making sure, A, that they're, you know, getting the ROI that they sort of wanted and they hoped for and that they're paying us money for. But also just to make sure that they're satisfied. One of the things that we are really, really sort of key about and one of the sort of KPIs that we have is how do we make sure we are super responsive to our customers? How do we make sure that when they sort of work with us, they're not just getting another vendor, they are getting a partner relationship where they're working side by side with us as a trusted partner?