Who Regulates the Metaverse? Jacqueline Watts Explores the New Frontiers of Law & Technology - S9E37

0:00Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:I think now is the time. As lawyers, yes, we have become very siloed in terms of the different practice areas. But when you boil it all down, we come back to the point that we're helping people and it's dealing with the regulation of human behaviour and how we interact with each other. This is still going to be the case and there's still going to be some need for being able to interpret that human behaviour. It's a fascinating time to be a lawyer. I think it's a fascinating time to work in the law. because we're going through this revolution. It's a really intriguing time because society is changing.

0:36Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:And so as a result, everything else is going to change.

0:40Jacqueline Watts:On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Jacqueline Watts. Jacqueline is an emerging technologies lawyer at a boutique law firm, All-in-One Advisory. She is also the head of corporate commercial law. Jacqueline is passionate about discussing law in the virtual world, publishing her own book, Law in the Metaverse. Earlier this year, she was also on a panel as part of the City of London's Access to Finance for early stage SMEs. And at the end of last year, she spoke about legal issues concerning the metaverse and Web3 at the Tech Summit. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Jackie.

1:14Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:Hi, Rob. Thank you so much for having me.

1:16Jacqueline Watts:It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. And before we dive into all the amazing things you're doing in and around the world of legal, we do have a customary icebreaker question here on the Legally Speaking podcast, which is, On the scale of one to ten, with ten being very real, what would you rate the hit TV series Suits in terms of its reality of the law if you've seen it? I have seen it and it's a bit of a guilty pleasure.

1:42Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So, yes, it's always nice to be fat suits. I think really in my practice, it's probably about three or four. But I do do the odd bit of litigation and I do try and channel a little bit of Harvey into that. So maybe swinging up to maybe six for the litigation side, maybe in my head more than in real life.

2:03Jacqueline Watts:There we go. A very justified answer all round. And with that, we can move swiftly on to talk all about you. So would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

2:12Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:Yeah. So I have been practicing for about 12 years now. I started off and I wanted to go to the bar and I did the BBC as it was then. I went to the Netherlands and I worked I interned at the special court for Sierra Leone because I wanted to be a war crimes um humanitarian lawyer and deal with international um criminal law and I was working then when I came back as a paralegal dealing with um dealing with criminal law and prison law and appeal work so pretty much no any notorious criminal that we could google and helping that side and then I decided well I want to cross qualify I want to become a solicitor and I needed three work three months work experience and I applied where I still am 13 years later I went there for three months work experience and I never left so I just fell in love with the commercial and just realized that actually what does it mean to be a lawyer it means helping people I think and it means having that relationship that trusted relationship with clients and being able to to assist around that so um and yeah I just I've just never left

3:29Jacqueline Watts:well and that's such a great case study isn't it and it's lovely to see that you've found somewhere and it's felt like home and you've been able to you know flourish throughout your your career and I want to talk about emerging technologies because um you know it's an interesting area and I'm pro-tech myself because you are an emerging technologies lawyer. What led you to specialise in this particular area of law?

3:49Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So maybe by accident is probably the truth. So where the firm is located, so it's located in the city and it's on the Shoreditch Old Street boundary, very close to where the old Google campus was based. So I really cut my teeth and found my feet around those early stage founders, startups, scale ups who were going through probably about 10 years ago now trying to go through and make something in the tech space. So a happy accident, I think.

4:25Jacqueline Watts:Yeah, well, very happy accident. And it's all worked out for you for the good. So I guess the accidents happen. Talk us through what a typical day looks like then as a merchant tech lawyer, but also head of corporate and commercial at your current place. Give us a bit of a flavour of your days.

4:39Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So I'm not sure there is a typical day. So I work in a really small boutique firm and that's maybe the beauty of why I'm still there, because there is no typical day in terms of what I do. um i have a lovely team of lawyers who help support me and my clients range from early stage tech companies that are just starting out don't know where to start don't know what to do have a brilliant idea want to innovate change their own space and not know how that fits into the legal framework and what might need to be changed and as I said I do deal with a number of different clients I tend to see myself as a GP and I say this to my clients when I first meet them that from my perspective my role is more about triaging what their needs are helping them understanding what the bigger picture is and I may not be able to specialize in everything that they need but I can certainly point out and direct where they need to go, who they need to speak to, and what can be done.

5:49Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So it's, yeah, I see myself more as a legal GP.

5:54Jacqueline Watts:Oh, I like that, a legal GP. Yeah, being able to do, and that's to your point around no two days the same, right? You don't know quite what you're getting in terms of the problem or opportunity, indeed, in terms of the types of work you do. Is there something you're currently involved in or recently been involved in you'd like to share with us? And what do you most enjoy about the work that you do?

6:12Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So for me, what I really enjoy doing is working with innovative founders, founders who are trying to carve out a market, carve out a space that doesn't really exist. So I have clients who are trying to disrupt the sporting field, ad tech, and in fintech, working with them to say, well, actually, there isn't necessarily a legal precedent here, there isn't a right or wrong answer and I'm a big believer that a lot of issues a lot of ills can be solved with private law with contractual provisions being put in place and going back to first principles understanding on what you know what are we here what are we trying to achieve here and and working back backwards so just acknowledging that there isn't necessarily an answer or a right answer but I've been working with for example clients have been breaking into AI for about four or five years now and before we started to have mainstream discussions over what needs to be included what needs to be addressed regulation you know before we even had the idea of having any form of regulation or AI legislation and how do we deal with that transparency and so for me it's all about dealing with things transparently via contracts to try and solve some of those issues yeah no great great point and you know

7:46Jacqueline Watts:so I always encourage people contracts get things in writing yeah things actually yeah put in put in place is there a memorable case that you've worked on today that you'd like to share yeah so

7:56Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:Well, lots of memorable cases. I tend to work at the early stages, so I'm not necessarily always mentioned or something I can necessarily speak about. But working with clients who have broken through in the US and advertising, marketing clients, negotiating with most of the US networks, a lot of the UK broadcasters around the idea of integrating AI very early stages, what data can be used for training and what they want in terms of ownership of IP. So I think for me, although I can't necessarily diverge, you know, what actually was the name of the client, but it was cutting edge media AI that did that has revolutionized that industry.

8:47Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:And from the very outset, being involved with them, making sure that, you know, you can't just fit into a SaaS agreement, which some of these enterprise clients wants to try and shoehorn a lot of these innovation and innovative clients into. And I think that's where, for me, is a really interesting area working in this space is saying, actually, this is one opportunity where as a smaller business, where you're going into enterprise, you can say, I want you to, I want to use my terms. I want to use my paper because my product doesn't fit into your procurement terms. It doesn't fit into the same model as, you know, perhaps buying a SaaS product or perhaps buying a paper.

9:31Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:You know, I've seen this is this is going back a few years now, but I have seen procurement teams try and shoehorn tech products. It was before SAS products into just software agreements or even into just general procurement of goods. And it doesn't work. So it's actually a really nice space where you can say, even though I am the underdog here, I am completely aware that, you know, I'm selling into a very big organization. your terms just don't work for what we're providing.

10:04Jacqueline Watts:And I guess that's the power of being a pioneer, isn't it, in many respects? Because like you say, it can't just be a vanilla or what we've already done because people are innovating and things are moving and it's not fit for purpose for where the direction of travel of the famous Wayne Gretzky, you know, where the puck is going and these founders are seeing and having that vision. I think it's great that you can kind of fight their corner and make sure that the foundations are set for them as a business or the infrastructure so then they can go on to hyper growth and all those great things obviously we're seeing now in the modern world.

10:31Jacqueline Watts:I want to talk now about fast-growing things, metaverse and gaming. Again, I'm all in on this sort of stuff. I love it. I'm pro tech for good. But for those who think the metaverse is just a gaming concept, how would you define it in the context perhaps of your work and why should lawyers be taking notice of the metaverse?

10:50Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So I have, whenever I speak about metaverse to people, they say, well, isn't the metaverse dead? say well no i think it's just going through a bit of a rebrand we you know there's so many interchangeable names terms that refer to you know it might be immersive technology spatial computing web 3 we're starting to have the boundaries of maybe digital assets around it as well um i think the eu have summed it up that they the eu are doing a massive drive in terms of regulation and forward-thinking innovation around the metaverse they call it virtual worlds from their um regulatory perspective and they've got that they're predicting that we're that you know we're not really going to see seismic change for the next 10 to 15 years so we're really at this cusp i think of changing the way that we're interacting the way that we work the way that we live the way that we have relationships with each other and so we and you know this really is now the fourth revolution you know we're going through an industrial revolution and this change I think we're starting to see it in real life now as lawyers with the realities of having to face AI coming at us and having to then acknowledge and make those changes and you know legal practice changes society changes we have to then react to that and I was reading something recently around the way that the law has changed and reacts to these industrial revolutions so we're talking about 1600s industrial revolution and you see we move from cottage industries we move to factories and we start to say well actually we need to have legislation to deal with working conditions so we start to see factory acts so it's the same for me in terms of where we are now we're going through this seismic change in the way that we work live interact and I think that we're very naive if we think that that's not going to impact on us as lawyers because for example roblox you know this has really taken um people by storm in terms of gaming but i think that it is a game but i think it does it a bit of a disservice to to refer to it in a condescending way as just a game it's a lifestyle people are spending considerable amounts of money um in terms of building commerce and um you know exchanging exchange of values you've got real you know you had ikea last year who advertised and recruited for a job a job working in the metaverse and so that then brings wider legal implications how do you deal with employment rights and um you know our traditional way in which we say well it's your place of work this is what jurisdiction applies this is what laws apply how do you apply that when it is immersive it is completely virtual and it's not virtual as in um you know zoom or teams this is immersive virtual where there doesn't necessarily have to be any physical connection between the people it's uh the next stage of the innovation

14:18Jacqueline Watts:yeah and and look change is the only constant in business and and life isn't it and i think you know like you you were talking to particularly roblox huge i mean what a brand what a success story in terms of what they've been able to achieve and you know things are going to change and digital matters you know we can't get away from the fact that we are digitally connected we're not too many years off all of us wearing glasses and you're having that world and i think we have to embrace it um but look at it from a lens of actually this is positive and these are the good things that come with it of course with some caution and we need to think about the risks and the regulation and that side of things.

14:53Jacqueline Watts:But absolutely, I think things will continue to change. And I think it's exciting. So let's talk about navigating the metaverse, though, on the flip side, because you believe people will still want to turn to traditional lawyers and real life courts. So it's vital lawyers understand this world and its unique features. So what are the three most important factors lawyers need to know to navigate the metaverse?

15:14Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So I think for me, one thing is about retaining the ethics and integrity of the profession itself and what we stand for in terms of our rules and our code of conduct, etc. So one thing when I was looking at this in a bit more detail is around the harm that could be presented because you don't necessarily know who is behind the mask. You don't. So if we think of the concept that we're going to be able to meet clients, speak to clients, interact with clients in a virtual arena, in a metaverse type forum. How do we know who that? How do we know, for example, in a divorce that we're not inadvertently speaking in the presence of a spouse, in the presence of children to the spouse themselves?

16:03Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:How do we deal with legal privilege and confidentiality in that space? So I think for me, it's going right back to jurisprudential values and looking at what do we stand for? What do we need to retain that we have now in the virtual space? So one of the things I looked at is the idea of the rule of law and the idea of justice in the metaverse. What does that mean? You know, the idea that the rule of law is effectively based on societal norms and the idea of what would. so how do we translate that when we're moving to a space where we have real-time immersive transactions that are happening simultaneously all around the world between somebody who's based in very different jurisdictions you know where do where do our societal norms come from do they come from the idea of where we live is it a community based and is it something that you know are we going to see metaverse communities that are aligned regardless of where you're living but creating their own societal norms within those spaces um so i think it's going back and saying what does it what does law actually mean and i think you said this earlier in the conversation and it's a word that i've been thinking about a lot which is pioneering this is a new frontier and I think we get the opportunity at this stage to draw those lines what does it mean for us to to be creating this new frontier and how does that transcribe into into the law and regulation and then I think the last point for me is how what values are we going to ascribe and what standards do we want in terms of the regulation and what I mean by that is we've already spoken about contractual provisions and private law basis now to at the moment most of the relationships most of the platforms most of the metaverse in its current iteration which you know that there is a debate over whether it really is the metaverse you know there's lots of um arguments around that or whether it's a proto metaverse you know the early stages of what we're looking for um but for me it's you know at the moment we're drawing lines based on terms and conditions based on the idea of metas terms of terms of service or on roadblocks or decentralands they're they're setting their terms of use and their rules as private tech companies and they're mandating those onto users there's already been cases many years ago in the US around you know what you're what would happen if you get shut out of one of these metaverses or one of these platforms and effectively you know talking about what's happening in in Roblox now you've You've got people having their whole business, their whole life on this platform.

19:11Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:Should a decision around that be based on private individuals, albeit tech giants, or should we be moving more towards a public law perspective and we regulate these tech giants by standards of reasonableness or the way that we'd look at administrative law? because we don't elect, you know, who's going to make decisions in meta. We don't elect these people. So I think it's kind of rethinking what do we want and how does that reflect the safeguards that we've installed over centuries, I think. And I think this is where, you know, you're saying we're going to turn to traditional justice and traditional lawyers and traditional real-life court systems because it's safe for people.

20:04Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:People are used to that. People know that, you know, we've already seen that online there's many forms of alternative dispute resolution. There's different ways that you can deal with issues online. But it comes a point where users say, I'm going to turn to court. I'm going to escalate this to litigation because we've we've formed centuries of safety around what that looks like for a final arbitrator of fact to say and law to say this is how it should be interpreted.

20:39Jacqueline Watts:It's fascinating, isn't it? It's you know, it's interesting to see where things will go. And you were touching on regulation. That was going to be sort of my next question. You know, who regulates the metaverse? So I guess sort of building on what you were saying there, anything you would add and, you know, what would you like to see as an ideal solution? So I think that going back to that whole idea of justice, the rule of law, and, you know, centuries ago, we said there should be a separation between in politics and judiciary. And so having the divergence of who's in charge, I think that as we evolve to a proper metaverse where there's the ability to move between universes

21:26Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:and between platforms, proper interoperability. interoperability so you can actually move and you know I buy a virtual handbag for my avatar in um in Roblox and I can move that with me I own that that's that's part of me and I can move that and use that in other platforms in other ways I think if we start to look at that then we need to go back and say well actually how do we how do we regulate how do we govern this this new space and one thing I think we have to be quite alert about is do we impose western standards of of governance on that are we going to turn the metaverse are we going to colonize the metaverse effectively and say this is the way that we think is right you're going to have to have a democratically elected whatever that means um person who's in charge of the metaverse and to do that we're shutting off other systems that that don't subscribe to the same basis us and who's to say that we are correct in the way in which we're doing that so are we going to see lines drawn where it's pretty much territorial you know we invade part of the metaverse and say this is going to be governed under English jurisdiction and these are our rules and this is how it's resolved and see different territories take control of different spaces i don't know i think this is something which is as yet hasn't been determined but one thing i know that the very early stages around this um is that the judicial task force are looking at the idea of um parity in terms of um private law and in different jurisdictions and different Commonwealth jurisdictions and doing a lot of work around what that means because I think that as I said before this this idea of being a revolution we've never had to encounter something like this before where actually we are we are creating these rules from nothing and what are we going to do and I think now is the time to be doing it and the EU definitely are very much thinking around that side there's really interesting um interesting use cases and interesting evolutions around for example the commodity of data that the idea of data in this space um where you know our currency is going to be data and so the eu looking at the idea as to who should own that data and it should be going back to the individual it shouldn't be that these tech giants own the data so there's going to be quite a lot of changes in the eu around the idea of a digital passport and the right to be able to move that around with you so i think there's there's going to be a lot of changes um speaking to different people some people think these changes you know just as we've had the avalanche of AI when this gets going we could very much see the same sort of avalanche take over when I think we have somewhat and I love AI you know I I've got lots of clients that deal with AI I've been involved with it for a while but I think that we've that's only a very small part of the picture where we're at now and I'm actually writing my second book at the moment, which is all about the industrial metaverse and the industry 4.0 and the idea about, in my opinion, the coming together of all these different emerging technologies we've spoken about for probably the last 10 years.

25:17Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:the big data talking about cloud computing talking about immersive technologies AI coming together for example use cases like digital twins and connectivity around real life now you know how do we merge together real life and this digital space and I think once that clicks then there's going to be seismic change in terms of it so we as lawyers I think part of our role is to interpret what clients need how they're living and society to be able to advise and so really for me it's about understanding what's happening and trying to be ready as much as we can be to deal with it because people are people and I think that's going back to the point I said about being a GP in that we I think as lawyers yes we have become very siloed in terms of the different practice areas but when you boil it all down we come back to the point that we're helping people and it's dealing with the regulation of human behavior and and how we interact with each other and so this is still going to be the case whether we you know unless it doesn't matter anymore and there's no humans, then there's still going to be some need for being able to interpret that human behavior.

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27:27Jacqueline Watts:If you're ready to leave frustration behind, visit clio.com forward slash UK to learn more and see why Clio continues to be the go-to choice for solicitors across the UK. Now back to the show. Thank you again for such, you know, a thought out in-depth answer there, because it's important, isn't there? And, you know, this is going in this direction of travel. You know, we are going there, whether we agree with it, disagree with it, or have othering views. And so it's important we have this conversation and we debate it, discuss, educate around it. And, you know, I think just on that, you know, in terms of as lawyers being forever curious, open to learning and helping the everyday person, What are some of the examples of people who might be using the metaverse or thinking about using metaverse more?

28:10Jacqueline Watts:You know, some simple crimes that people may be less aware of that you should maybe thinking about. And are there courts in the metaverse or does the prosecution take still as of today in real life courts?

28:20Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So there is they have tried people in the metaverse, which I think it was a South American country that had the first ever metaverse court case. but it's traditional law being tried in the metaverse and the same that the Dubai Arbitration Court also has the ability to be able to have hearings in the metaverse. We saw the online safety act come out which has established a number of really this is this is my my legal curiosity Very interesting new types of crimes, which I think is a realisation that can be exploited in the metaverse. For example, they had more around communication offences, cyber stalking and harassment.

29:18Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:There's a very interesting new piece of a new offence around deliberately causing an epileptic fit. and to be so using that which is really um i think there's a risk of that in the metaverse where it's effectively exploiting known vulnerabilities so it's um there's there's examples it was a campaign in respect of um it's a known thing which is which is really really terrible that trolls on some sites especially epileptic societies and community type web pages put flashing images to try and cause that reaction and I think that's a really interesting inclusion within that in the regulation because not everybody there's going to be different issues that present themselves in the metaverse for example you know wearing a headset if you're gonna have to work in a headset the guidance at the moment is to only wear it for you know less than an hour in terms of that exposure so we're going to have different forms of health and safety considerations what if somebody falls over you know they're working in the metaverse at home where does the liability sit in terms of that and what changes are employers going to have to implement to be able to safeguard around that um there's also i think the other thing that i find quite interesting in the metaverse space is the idea of doing business in the metaverse and how you you know we've we've we've formulated with you know i think as as a society we say this is where the harms are and this is where the law and regulation needs to come around and try and fix or address those specific harms so one of those areas around consumer protection and the you know the the reams of protection that's in place around that how does that translate when things are being sold in an immersive experience where um you know the opportunity to manipulate somebody's thoughts are very real you know you've got now technology that is able to interpret and use thoughts you know albeit the um way in which those are exhibited maybe by um sweat or by the way that we're moving in our eyesight and being able to advertise deliberately because of the way that somebody is behaving um where do we draw those lines where do we say that we need to protect individuals how do we stop and i think this is a very real conversation it's having now where we're starting to see off comms codes starting to be implemented around online safety around age verification which is just the start of those conversations around what we need to do to protect the more vulnerable people in society from the harms that this digitalization is going to cause them so how do we you know how do we incorporate terms that someone's selling something in the metaverse how do we how do we protect and make that bring up someone's attention and you know where where what are we going to do to and i think that's where I'm very exciting and interested around it is advising clients on that space the the use cases for the innovation because we're not there yet in terms of necessarily litigating and dealing with it so we don't really know how a court is going to interpret that we have a good idea we have you know we have case law to fall back on we have principles to go from but we don't really know how it's going to be finally determined so some of it is around just implementing security safety and best practice around that i'm not sure if i answered your question but

33:41Jacqueline Watts:you did and it leads nicely on to another question i was going to ask because you're talking a lot around sort of that you know due diligence you know and what kind of due diligence should businesses do before launching products or services on platforms like Roblox or Decentraland or others?

33:58Host of Legally Speaking Podcast:So as a minimum, understand the terms and conditions that they're signing up to and understand what they actually own and what they're permitted to do. So for example, for Roblox, you don't own your avatar, so that's owned by Roblox. So that goes into really interesting conversations around image rights and the idea that if you're going to be generating goodwill in this space in respect of an avatar who should own that and you know if you're talking about celebrity use in the metaverse how you know how do you protect that brand and that goodwill in terms of in terms of the physical representation of yourself and there's already been there's already been cases around that so it's I think if you are in that space and you're dealing with somebody who already has a reputation then it's having the conversation with those platforms and as I said before saying we fall outside of your general terms and conditions we you know our client already has that goodwill is going to be a digital representation of them we want to be able to use that avatar across multiple platforms we want them to be able to use that online for their own advertising you know for their linkedin profile or for their x account and so being able to use that so it's it's really i think going back and saying we we have to now um when we're advising clients consider about their profile their presence in the metaverse if you're advising clients who are you know on private client considerations and death or divorce do they have any assets in this space you know we're starting to already think about digital assets what about virtual assets which have got a considerable value but understanding it might have considerable value that's been invested into it does it have value does it actually have any value can we actually pass it through um inheritance rules or instead is it something that dies with the individual and how do we how do we classify that and how do we know what they have where it is and um so i think it's looking at real life issues in that space you know understanding that we are still going to have relationships we are still going to have work um you know employment we're still going to have businesses and be selling and how does that change so for example if you are registering a trademark now are you going to make sure that you also cover the virtual representation of those goods and services and how then does it how does it look in that space so for example um if you are you know in the metaverse take an example of coca-cola if you're going to buy a bottle of coke in the metaverse your avatar can't really drink that so do you have the licensing rights to be able to use that um representation because what is the what is the purpose of that can of coke that can of coke is then um really about the branding and so it's having a a different conversation it's not the same and i had conversations with i'd say conversations i think maybe you know heated debates around the idea of um you know isn't it just the same as going into a shop and buying a can of coke well it's not the same because when you go into a shop and buy a can of coke for example you're buying the drink that's inside and advertising is the secondary purpose that really the brand itself has determined this is how I'm going to collectively gather this goodwill but in the metaverse it's the flip is the a complete reverse and so how do you ensure that if you are Coca-Cola that somebody's not exploiting your brand and has the right permissions and used to be able to use it so I think there's a lot of change coming and it's just being alive to the fact that this is what is happening it's not the metaverse isn't dead um it might be called different names now um i think everyone has a different name for it but um that the the evolution of the internet the change in way that we are you know as a society of digitalizing everything the commodity of data everything is changing and it's just being alive to what do we need to do to actually protect our client not necessarily only in real life but also now making sure they're protected virtually as well yeah and that's going to be

39:11Jacqueline Watts:so important and you touched on so many points there you know i was going to mention which is so so valuable around the virtual assets piece, particularly around inheritance proceedings. As you say, the IP, you know, the amount of challenges that are going to go with that. And you gave some great examples. So, yeah, I think, like you say, you can't assume that everything's going to stay the same because it's not, and you need to be, you know, and that's why we try and bring these sort of forward-looking with solutions, conversations to the show. Because it's, you know, it is the direction of travel.

39:38Jacqueline Watts:And I think it's the people that are really prepared to have the conversations and innovate. And like you say, hotly debate, but try and get forward. so we make an impact on the world but for good with what we're doing and earlier this year I believe you were on a panel as part of the City of London's access to finance and early stage SME so could you tell us a little bit about that panel discussion you had and what were the key topics you discussed?