Why Focusing On Outcomes and Not Just Technicalities Will Save Your Deals - Björn Benckert - S10E06

0:00Björn Benckert:We need to get involved in every part of the business. When you're in a small firm and you don't have the brand behind you, you're much more exposed because suddenly you need to convince people that what you are delivering is actually worth something as opposed to just your brand that will underwrite your work product. And that's the challenge that comes with that. This is all about getting along with the other side, even negotiating difficult points. It's all about getting that compromise and also managing your clients' expectations. It's really important.

0:29Rob:On today's Legally Speaking podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Bjorn Bankett. Bjorn is the founder and managing partner of Avery Law. He is a corporate lawyer specializing in M &A transactions. Bjorn trained at Norton Rose Fulbright and worked at Durian Leboeuf LLP before founding Avery Law in 2012. Bjorn built the firm to provide the kind of clear, strategic and practical legal support fast-growing businesses truly need. So a very big warm welcome to the show, Bjorn. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. thank you very much for having me oh we're absolutely delighted to have you on the show today and before we get into your impressive career and all the great things you've been doing in and around the world of law we do have a couple of customary icebreaker questions one what is your favorite beverage and what is your preferred choice of footwear during a work day

1:20Björn Benckert:my favorite beverage is um yeah a lot actually i'm a big fan of coffee so So it gets me through the day. Any lawyers, kind of key drink to perform. And yeah, my footwear, yeah, it's probably some brown leather shoes, actually quite comfy. I do a lot of walking into the office, so I don't need to be quite comfy, but still kind of, I suppose, recently stylish, hopefully.

1:45Rob:Nailing it. Brown shoes with the latte. Into work we go. And with that, we'll talk all about you and your journey. So would you mind telling our listeners a bit about your background and career journey?

1:55Björn Benckert:Yeah, I came to England to study. I'm from Sweden, so I came here in 1996, studied history politics. And then I went to do the conversion, Nottingham Law School. And then I started off with got a training contract with Norton Rose Fulbright. I spent four years there in total. Then I got an offer from an American law firm called Dewey and LaBeouf. I was there for two years and then after that I wanted to see a different challenge I wanted to see something different than big law so I took a position with a family office here in London where I worked for about 8-10 years and then whilst there we kind of branched out and then founded Avery Law that's what we've been

2:52Rob:working on since ever since really yeah absolutely and there's there's a lot to unpack there so sort of going back to the the academic side of things you mentioned obviously history and politics at warwick then sort of studying modern english at history at university oxford what inspired you

3:06Björn Benckert:to pursue a career in the law in the first place good question well i mean i have uh my family lawyers uh my background so it kind of came with the mother's milk in that sense um i mean i wasn't hugely you know some many students I wasn't kind of massively passionate about that side of things but it's I just fell into it rather than anything to be totally honest it's quite a natural thing if you're doing history to go into law and I got a great offer and I thought well kind of pursue this and see where it takes me really so it was more curiosity than anything else initially to be honest there's no kind of no no big kind of life plan as such yeah but i think that's a good point

3:58Rob:about you know look at speak to a lot of lawyers obviously on the show and people around law and that curiosity point is so important actually and quite crucial to being a good lawyer which of course you've gone on to be from the start of your career and with that you've mentioned you've worked some incredible law firms you know norton rose fulbright as you mentioned sort of duane la but what prompted to you touched on it before but what really prompted you to leave big law and move on to a sort of new venture was there at one moment was there certain things you were

4:27Björn Benckert:you were not getting or wanting to get yeah there was i think it was it felt quite um stifling being in the big law firm obviously was the long hours which initially i are okay because i think you you you learn a lot by doing working long hours because you do more work effectively and so I think that's but at some point it just felt like you know you wanted to see the more the commercial side of the clients it felt like you were always kind of doing the same documentation without not really understanding the kind of commercial rationale behind it etc how clients are really thinking um so for me it was just more of a build up over a couple of years of just wanting to kind of see different angle of things uh than than anything else really no absolutely and obviously

5:16Rob:all of that rich experience you gained come 2012 you mentioned it you co-founded Avery Law and you know what gap in the market where you and David Turney who your colleague who has also been on the show would encourage folks to go back and listen to his episodes in one of our earlier seasons what problem or solution were you trying to address that traditional firms perhaps were not focusing on when you're thinking about launching Avery Law?

5:38Björn Benckert:Well yeah it's a very good question. Yeah there are many things really I mean it kind of grew out of being in-house initially it was not something that I initially thought of when I was in the big law firms myself but it's well it's kind of a lot of the law firms are not client focused enough there is too much process going on processing law firms are sometimes more interested in protecting themselves than protecting the client there is not necessarily the incentives of lowering fees you know they're more interested in kind of perfect documentation and high fees which is not really aligning with the client's interest and I think for us having been in-house and seen that we just thought well we can actually start a law firm that changes that that's more commercial more client focused think in a different way so it's it's you know it's quite difficult in some respect to put your finger on it.

6:53Björn Benckert:But it's a question of almost the experience. I think a lot of people having worked with law firms, they would probably recognize and having this experience and recognizing these traits for dealing with big firms. And I think that's how we operate. This is different from that. And I think that's really what we want to come across. I think it's been more important as well when you're working with tech startups, growing firms, when you're not in the kind of corporate box ticking environment with a really big corporate, you're in kind of smaller founders or even growing family offices, people that want things to happen a little bit faster and quicker.

7:38Rob:yeah what i'm gleaming from that is is what you're touching on there which we talk about a lot on the show is being exceptionally client-centered really getting to the heart of what's important to clients listening to them hearing with them and collaborating with them not just putting the suite of documents together and this is how it's done it's actually probably taking them on their journey showing that you genuinely care about their business and yeah you are their lawyer and you're there thickened through to support them and exceptionally client-centered and with that I'd encourage folks to go and read Jack Newton, CEO of Clio, his client-centered book.

8:08Rob:It's fantastic for law firms. There's some great nuggets in there. And it's brilliant. And obviously, Avery Law has been hugely successful off the back of being exceptionally client-centric. For those folks who may be less familiar with Avery Law, tell us about some of the areas you specialize in and some of the services you provide.

8:23Björn Benckert:Yes, we are a full-service law firm, but we don't do private client work. We focus exclusively on corporate work. The two legs of the firm, I'd say, it's always M &A and equity fundraising. These are the two things we really focus on. That's what we want to do. That's our expertise. But together with that, we do data protection, employment, IP, everything that you will need as a corporate kind of along the journey because you're not going to do an M &A deal every day. You will need some employment support, data protection. There is some trademark. so it's basically supporting companies all the way from the journey from start to to exit basically um that's what we're kind of focusing on so we i mean it's not only founders but it's you know any any company along that journey really yeah and like you say corporate is the nucleus isn't

9:18Rob:it it's the starting point and through that there will be these other areas as these businesses grow like there'll be an employment issue or they'll be growing they'll be looking to acquire a workforce or what have you and that's the beautiful thing about corporate done well as a business development strategy and as a sort of way to drive extra revenue streams from your law firms you can really be quite smart smart about it and and look you are super smart living the other co-founder and managing partner of a firm that's done very very well since 2012 in london doing some really complex work what does your role involve as a managing partner and

9:49Björn Benckert:co-founder of a serious law firm yeah that's that's also very interesting i mean it's very very different from i'd say any uh wasn't necessarily a partner at the bigger firm but i think even even is different from a part of the bigger firm in the sense that we need to get involved in every part of the business it's running the deals it's marketing it's admin it's billing human resources so it's it's a full spectrum thing which comes from driving or running a business which i think anyone who's running a business will be doing the same thing but i think what's unusual is as a lawyer doing that to some extent because I think law firms are much more segmented you know you've got a marketing department you know general lawyers they will just do deals then you know and then you've got a billing department etc so I think partly when you're a smaller firm you get involved in a much broader range of issues and of course as you're growing you will of course get people on board to to do more of those uh functions of course but I think that's the kind of key difference and i think that's quite useful because we also see lawyers sometimes that are not don't understand that a lot of lawyers will just understand the fee earning bet that's that we're trained to do and they don't and i think that's a part of the problem as well because if you don't understand what it involves running a business then you're not going to understand your clients need of running a business so for us i think that's uh awareness and having doing all these things are quite helpfully uh you know working with our clients because i think it kind of aligns our focus and thinking in a different way the key point there is you're

11:28Rob:definitely more than a lawyer when it comes to the roles and what you're doing there are multiple hats that you're wearing you're a business builder you're making sure the firm's operating well you're obviously looking after your clients you're growing your own book of business as well that there's multiple hats that you need to wear as you're running this this organization and look But that leads nicely onto some of the cases in emerging markets. You've worked on a wide range of M &A transactions, sellers, buyers, power stations, mining company, oil and gas fields, you name it, commercial real estate.

11:57Rob:It's been a really broad church that you've worked on. Can you tell us one memorable case or perhaps if not one memorable case, some of the best lessons you've got from working on some of those cases that might be valuable for our listeners?

12:10Björn Benckert:One case that I worked on was big enforcement of some assets in multiple jurisdictions. And it was kind of largely institutional sellers. And you had a different chance on one side of the table. But I think the truth is it would become very complex. And a lot of the management even left halfway through the transaction, et cetera. And, you know, people were kind of extremely risk averse. And at some point towards the end of the deal, you just had the lawyers on the other side just running the deal. And the client had almost, you know, at that point disappeared into the background. And it just became an extremely process-driven, risk-averse kind of transaction that dragged out and cost a lot of money.

12:59Björn Benckert:And from that, you realize, you know, what I've learned from that, This is the key thing is always that the clients, even commercial people need to run the deal. They need to be properly advised to understand what they're doing. But lawyers should not be running transactions. And quite often, I think you can easily that can happen in less or greater extent. I think the lawyers either feel like they want to show off or protect the client or for various reasons. And I think that's probably the kind of the biggest takeaway I have on a deal. That's kind of really impacted my thinking on how to operate transactions, how they should be run.

13:43Rob:That flows to where I wanted to talk next, which is around law firm culture, actually. And for you as a law firm owner, what were the hardest decisions you've had to make in the early days of Avery Law that have ultimately defined the culture of the firm?

13:58Björn Benckert:Yeah, I think it's the entrepreneurial aspect of it. I think we were very much focused on my earlier career. We were doing a lot of, as you kind of alluded to, international M &A. The first 10, 15 years almost, I was doing exclusively big ticket international M &A. and then when we founded Avery Law we switched over to much more domestic UK focused M &A more on the kind of tech side of things and that was kind of it's a difficult shift I think you know to to go from doing one thing to another because both in terms of client marketing and you know how you project yourself as a lawyer etc so I think that's definitely been I thought was the kind of biggest challenge that we had but i think that's defines us uh in a way than you know the entrepreneurial spirit and also that we can basically do anything we uh put our hands to you know we're not kind of tied in i think a lot of people a lot of lawyers they used to get very boxed into their own little narrow field and refuse to even think outside the box and i think that's not a very good trait i think it's important to be able to apply your legal skills and thinking to a wide range of problems and issues even if it's not something you're doing day to day i think that's something we kind of is that problem solving and thinking outside the box that you know where we really add value to clients yeah and that's what they're paying for right

15:33Rob:that's what they want you know they're coming to you with their problems or exciting ideas and they're leaning on you to make sure they could be executed and you know that they can kind of flourish and thank you for bringing up challenges um because it is so important obviously people look at your background and profile be like impressive impressive wow done all these days but you know there are challenges when you're running a business or you're you're a big ticket lawyer and you're going through your own journey and you're alluding it to to there and maybe touching on it but i want to go a little bit deeper taking yourself back to those early days particularly when you mentioned around the mna and maybe a little bit of repositioning how did you personally overcome those challenges were there any particular things that you did was Was it finding mentors?

16:10Rob:How did you personally overcome them and maybe advise others who might be struggling right now, starting up a law firm who have got challenges facing them?

16:19Björn Benckert:Yeah, I think you've got to persevere, really. I mean, the hardest bit, I think, also with that part of this was effectively that I think lawyers forget that being in a big firm, you do have a big brand behind you. And that brand is incredibly valuable. And I don't think a lot of people, when they are in a big law firm, they take that brand for granted. It's not something you reflect on particularly because you think you can just deliver. I think when you're in a small firm and you don't have the brand behind you, you're much more exposed because suddenly you need to convince people that what you are delivering is actually worth something as opposed to just your brand that will underwrite your work product.

17:02Björn Benckert:and that's the challenge that comes with that um and i think the only thing you can really do is i think it's a relationship issue and you've got to start small but it's the more deals you do and it's just clients seeing what you can deliver and being out there and you know just doing stuff respectively the only way i mean i think it's a slow grind you can obviously do some marketing around it and you know try to convince people um that you can deliver but i i think it's proofs in the pudding where you're going to start small i think and just build from there i think it's very much like a chessboard even to say you put the rice corn one is you just start with one and then it's two and then it's four and eight and 16.

17:45Björn Benckert:i think that's how you you got to look at it you start small and and and work with your clients and they if your strongest clients are happy they will also come back and they will recommend you to to other people and it starts uh you know constant being at it constantly i think is the only way forward really yeah and it's sort of that

18:04Rob:that flywheel effect we we talk a lot about people have obviously a lot of people have read the book jim collins good to great and his flywheel effect but it's momentum isn't it what what you're doing is you're building momentum you know you'll do a good job for one client they'll then refer you potentially they'll come back for repeat business and suddenly that flywheel the more inputs going into it gets quicker and quicker you're building you're moving and your firm is suddenly you look back on a year and be like wow we did do all of that or we've come from here we've grown from here to here in terms of headcount or revenues have gone up from this or our level of tech adoption and the efficiency gains from it whatever it might be but it's taking small consistent habits and actions that actually compound over time building that momentum lead to you know successful law firms like yourselves you're mentioning there um sort of you know some of the sort of maybe own law firm versus global big law firms around brand and not having the brand are there any other big misconceptions people have about starting their own law firm versus working at a global law firm that you would educate people on well i don't know exactly what misconceptions

19:04Björn Benckert:people have in that that sense but i think it's it's certainly a big uh big difference uh i think and you're suddenly in a smaller team, you're expected to do more things, being more agile. You'll probably be thrown in at the deep end quicker in some respects, less hierarchical structure. So I think there's a lot of advantages there, I think, for junior lawyer. I think the biggest problem is, of course, is the kind of lack of brand that people get affected by. So people might be reluctant to join smaller firms because, of course, they're not going to have the brand on their CV if they go look for another job, etc.

19:51Björn Benckert:I think that's the key problem.

19:54Rob:Yeah, and it's a very valid point as well. But like you've alluded to with organizations like yourselves, the responsibility, the opportunities, the chance to be entrepreneurial, all of the upsides are very much there as well. And once those relationships are built with the clients, then of course you know it's it gets rather exciting let's talk more going back to your your own background now because um we haven't had many people have a scandinavian background on the show and i just wondered has that how has that influenced your approach to business leadership advising clients if at all probably not very much i don't think ultimately i never kind of see

20:30Björn Benckert:myself as um you know defined in that sense by kind of being scandinavian for me it's just be delivering good legal services really so i i wouldn't say that it has necessarily i guess it's always a funny talking point for people i suppose you could crack some jokes about it and i'm probably more direct maybe as a kind of cultural trait and then um many english people would be uh i suppose um and although over the years probably softened a little bit but i think there's an element of directness there that uh i probably have which i think people uh quite like I hope. But I haven't specifically targeted Scandinavian market or anything like that.

21:14Björn Benckert:It's been very much international London focused client base. So obviously I have a couple of Swedish clients, but not more so than necessarily any other English solicitor would, I don't think.

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22:29Rob:Now back to the show. I love you say direct. I mean, when I moved from London, middle of the UK, up to the north, you know, I found northern people up here to be very direct, and I quite liked it. They let you know where you stand. And, you know, I've got family. My older brother's married to a Danish lady, and, you know, their family. Always happy. Lots of fun whenever we spend time together. So, yeah, I was just curious. And I know, obviously, you have a broad church and sort of international perspective. But do you think, you know, and look, with Sweden, you've got legal tech organizations like the Gora that have just gone really big.

23:00Rob:Do you think Nordic startup scale ups are becoming so influential globally? And how does that play into Avery's work, Avery Law's work, if at all?

23:09Björn Benckert:Well, yeah, I mean, I do think Sweden has a kind of open minded, generally kind of open minded attitude. And Swedish people are quite international. obviously have the english as almost a second language so in that it's i think they have the base for that it's quite entrepreneurial culture quite willing to take risks generally so i think for sure it's going to grow and we well i don't think it has affected um maybe i am kind of part of that mindset to some extent in the sense that that's obviously why i'd be happy kind of start my own firm and doing that. But we haven't as such interacted too much with the Scandinavian tech market.

23:50Björn Benckert:You know, obviously various deals here and there, but it's not, it's still very much primarily London focused.

23:55Rob:Absolutely. And one thing you're very good at is deals and the technical side of the law with your clients. And I think I'm going to quote you here. I believe you said many lawyers derail deals by focusing on technicalities instead of outcomes. So can you tell us a little bit more what you mean by that?