"Everyone Needs to Stop Making So Much Stuff": Tibi Founder Amy Smilovic on Finding and Refining Personal Style

0:00The following podcast is a Dear Media Production. Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Let's Get Dressed. It's your host, Liv Perez. Happy Thanksgiving week. I am thrilled that we're here. For those of you who don't know, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. I love it so much. I celebrate every year at my mom's house, and last year I was away for a wedding. I got no Thanksgiving food, no Thanksgiving vibes, so I'm really looking forward to being back at my mom's this year. My mom lives at the beach in Malibu. So it's a very untraditional Thanksgiving. Like there's no snow. There's no cozy bundling up in layers.

0:38We're like down by the water hanging out on the beach and it's usually very, very sunny. However, doing a Thanksgiving on the East Coast is definitely on my bucket list. I have never done it. Actually, even more specific, doing the Macy's Day Parade, like being at someone's house on Fifth Avenue and being able to look over the parade, that's on my bucket list. I would love to do that. I've been watching the parade since I was a kid. I would like sit on the couch in the morning and it was a tradition for me. So maybe one day I'll do that. But for now, on Thursday, you'll find me by the beach with my fam, eating my mom's famous banana Oreo cream pie, which I'm counting down the days until I get.

1:15It's a holiday week, which means it's the perfect time to be catching up on pods. So if you've missed some of the amazing episodes we've been doing lately, make sure you go check those out. And this week's episode is with someone who I love to follow and have really learned so much from. Her name is Amy Smilovic, and she is what I like to call a fashion mathematician of sorts. Through her 27 years as a fashion designer, founder, and creative director of the women's wear brand Tibby, I think she's built a foolproof formula for getting dressed every day through what she's coined the Tibictionary.

1:48She's broken down our closets into three parts, without fails, ins and outs, and had-to-haves, all things she'll go through in today's episode, in an effort to categorize our closets in a pragmatic way that makes dressing seamless. In today's episode, we chat through how organizing your closet by mood might be most effective. We talk about the process of finding those three personal style words and how important that is. And the upcoming release of volume two of her styling book, The Creative Pragmatist. I know you guys are going to love the episode. Make sure you take notes. Let's go get dressed with Amy Smilovic.

2:26Hey, Amy. Welcome to the pod. Thank you. You've been a highly requested guest. That's amazing. Highly requested. My mom, my sister. You're like my entire family just jumped in there and was like, get her. She's amazing. You know what? My family does that too. No shame. No shame. Do what you got to do. Yeah. It's like I have four sisters. It's like, give me some engagement, guys. Your family lives here? Georgia. Oh, my God. That's amazing. I didn't know that you're from there. Yeah. St. Simon's Island, little island, 12 miles long. Beautiful. Yeah, it was. I have been on a kick of wanting to explore more of America and parts that I have not seen and parts that are very underrated.

3:06And I feel like Georgia is a place I would love to spend some time. I love Georgia. I love it. And our team members from New York, like we just did a big shoot down there. Everyone had hash puppies and grits and everyone was so friendly. It was amazing. I went down to Savannah for a SCAD jury panel when I was in college. And it was unbelievable. Yeah. Savannah's just off the rockers, like insane. It's unbelievable. I don't know how to encourage people to make it a destination, like a stop on the way somewhere. But I spent four days there and truly was inspired by the people, the design, the art, obviously there with SCAD being there.

3:46But it was such a wonderful community. And Paula Wallace's story starting SCAD is, I think, one of the most inspiring entrepreneurial stories out there. I don't know it. Could you share? Yeah, so Paula, and Paula, if you're listening, I'm going to paraphrase and probably get some things wrong, but she was like a school teacher in Atlanta in her early 20s, and she really did not like the way art was taught in the schools. She felt like it could be much more hands-on and done in a much more interesting way. And she went home and told her parents that she wanted to start her own art school. And they were like, okay, you're crazy.

4:30Because they were just regular parents in a regular town in Georgia. And she found this really run-down building in the middle of Savannah, completely run-down. And for me growing up in Georgia, I mean, even in the early 80s, you did not walk outside. past sundown in savannah it was not a heavily inhabited place you did not feel safe on the streets at night and she found this old warehouse and her parents quit their job took money invested they the three of them completely painted all the walls and i think it was she said that that first year they got everything painted up and the first year i think she got like 30 students and it was either 30 or 70.

5:18And she told me, she said, when we found out that we got that many students enrolled, she's like, that's when I realized like we'd made it. And I was talking to her recently about this and I was like, you know, the beauty of it is when you start out doing something on your own, you get to decide the definition of what it is to have made it. Because I think right now, so many people take a route where they go out and they get investment money. they start talking to VCs, PEs, they imagine a big Shark Tank, you know, presentation. And the thing is, is no one, Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank would never agree that 30 or 70 students is qualifying as having made it.

6:01And so people shut down on their dreams really early on when they're not getting that kind of validation. But if you really just bootstrap things and set really reasonable goals for yourself, you can do it. You're not going to be a, you know, you're not going to have a 2000 enrollment in your run, but 30 to 70 students, like you got that. And now the number, I mean, she is one of the most successful schools in the country. And for sure, from a designer's point of view, when we get a SCAD resume now, you pay attention and they have got just the best in class offerings there. But the school's been around now for 30, 40 years and she's at the helm and she's transformed not just what a school, but an entire city.

6:51Completely. The entire city revolves around that school. It really does. And I really loved what you just said about everybody having a different idea of making it. What's your idea of making it? It's changed over the years, but when COVID happened, we were really forced to articulate exactly what success would mean to us because you were in a position where you were either going to shut down a company and do something new, shut it down and just walk away and hide or try and revamp things. And so myself, my husband, who is our CEO and our president, Elaine, we sat down and decided that we would define what it meant to make it.

7:34And we determined that it would mean that we would only work with people that we loved. And that meant internally and externally. So it meant stores and it meant our employees. It meant what we said was that everything that we did meant that we would have to have time for family and a life and enjoy what we were doing every single day. and the third thing was that we had to be independent and that just not even from a work perspective but just from a personal perspective not having to ask others for approval and have people dictate what we do every day was incredibly important to the three of us and so when we realized that it was about independence being around people that we really love and respect and family comes first those three things guided every decision we made from then on.

8:30So pre-COVID, when we had$300 million or bust written on our walls in the office, we were like, well, we don't need$300 million, and it also doesn't mean bust anymore. And$300 million had to come off the wall because it would have meant going out and getting outside investment dollars for it. If you get outside investment dollars, you're going to be in bed with people that you don't love, and you are definitely losing control and independence. So it's really understanding what motivates you and what's important to you, it just becomes a real benchmark every single time you've got a decision looming ahead.

9:06Like we said in our office, we were going to really memorialize why we made the changes that we did. And we had a thing recently where we had taken our winter collection and, you know, before COVID, but a winter collection might've had 150 styles. After COVID, we took it down to, I think, 40 or 50 styles. And right before we were about to show the collection to the whole team, Tracy and I were like, shit, there's only really 12 pieces here that will really make us feel new and excited. We were like, what if we just do 12 pieces? Let's do it. And we convinced everyone to do just 12 pieces. and our president wrote to us and she said, well, if you're going to do 12 pieces for winter, could you consider like doubling the amount of styles for resort?

9:58And I was like, Elaine, no, no, like that's not the point. Like, and she just wrote back and she's like, delete, delete, delete the email because we all have these brain farts. You have these knee jerks, but it really requires a team around you to be like, no, remember. And people say that to me all the time. It's like, remember the Alamo. As a consumer, I prefer that. Yes, of course. I would rather go shop at a brand that has a very distinctive point of view with a limited amount of SKUs. And I don't have to look through nine pages of your winter collection where I'm really only interested in two pieces.

10:32There's the famous Smucker study, business study from years ago where Smucker set up one test in a grocery store with like 200 choices of amazing different flavored jams and everything. I'm going for strawberry every time. I know. Well, they did in another grocery store. They did a thing where they had like, I think, four choices. The one with four choices way outperformed. And even with that, like Harvard Business Review case study. well-known, the Smucker study, every time some people go out with 100 jams, every time. Yeah. I just want four really good things, not 100 whatever ones. Really good ones that you know whoever made that jam really believes in them.

11:15I agree. Yeah. Before we continue with our conversation today, a quick thank you to our sponsor of today's episode, Cotton. Cotton's The Fabric of Now campaign is challenging everyone to make the natural choice, to give yourself enough room to breathe so that you can be more intentional in your everyday life and in what you wear. To me, cotton as a fabric, it just feels like a giant hug. It's the thing that I go towards every single morning when I'm getting ready to tackle my day because it's the thing that makes me feel most like myself. It feels like a second skin. Plus, it goes really well with everything in my closet and just makes dressing a breeze.

11:55It's breathable and soft and comfortable. and honestly, it feels like doing that thing that you need to do for yourself to get grounded after maybe say a really hectic month. For me, that's going out in nature and whatever it is for you, it's that feeling of getting back to yourself. I love to go out in nature, put my phone away, leave my laptop at home, be with my loved ones and totally unwind. I feel completely recharged after I do those weekends and it feels so natural for me. It feels so good to leave those things behind and just get to the center of myself, Maybe read a good book, play a couple board games.

12:29That's really when I feel like my most self. And it's the same way that I feel when I'm wearing cotton. So cotton is asking all of us to recharge in your own way. Maybe that means putting your phone down for a few hours a day or just going out with your friends for the night and being really present. Whatever it is, you do you. Find that thing that feels natural and makes you feel good. Cotton is the natural choice. So go discover the fabric of now at thefabricofourlives.com. Let's get back to the show. I want to get into your wardrobe a little bit because you're one of my favorite follows. I really resonate with the educational side of what it is that you do.

13:05And I love watching you get dressed on Instagram. And I would love to hear a little bit about your process getting dressed. Is it, are you walking into your closet and feeling really excited about one piece? Or are you waking up in the morning and feeling like you want to go after a certain energy or emotion? I mean, yes to both, depending on when. So if I've bought something new that I'm really excited about, I'll go into my closet thinking, I want to make this work today. So once I've established that, it then is about getting it to feel right for that day. And then other times I just walk in and I'm like, oh man, it's gross outside.

13:46I feel gross. I want to feel better or I just want to lean into the grossness and I don't give a shit or whatever. But it is about figuring out how you feel, how do you want the clothing to affect how you feel, and then understanding which different pieces of clothing will do that. So that's, yeah. Is your closet organized in a way to service that? How do you have your pieces organized in your closet now that's helping you get dressed every day really easily? What's key in my closet is that I have all the fundamental pieces. there. You know, that I've got, you know, rows of black pants that have, you know, some have shape, some have different textures, some are different weights, but it really is making sure that I've got all the moods lined up and ready to grab, you know, something really baggy, something a little more sharper and clean.

14:46So to me, the key in the closet is to not be repetitive. When you really repeat a mood straight up, that's when someone's closet tends to get really tilted and dysfunctional. So a lot of people, you know, they buy the perfect black pant for them that's maybe long and lean cigarette style. And then they go out and they buy another pant just like it, but it's brown this time. And then maybe they see a red one and they're like, oh man, that's great. I'm like, now I've got the perfect pad. This is me, guys. I always say if you love something, buy it in every color, but I actually was listening to, I can't remember what podcast it was on, but you were like, don't do that.

15:27It creates monotony. It creates monotony in your mind. And so what happens is when you've got that perfect pant that makes you feel so tailored and chic, well, when you want to feel just really chill and approachable, all of a sudden you've got nothing to wear. so you know it really is having the that diversity of of moods in your closet so yeah you when you want to feel tailored and chic you've got it in that black pant maybe you get it if you get like the brown one as well but like I would say when you diversify in color I would jump to different color rings when you do that or I would diversify in terms of textures you know like if you've got that black slim tropical wool pant that you love maybe getting the same idea of that but in a nylon sporty nylon type fabric so next time that same look that you love on you it's giving a more sporty chill vibe and so it's changing up the mood i love the idea of dressing by mood and i actually was reading your sub stack and you said the same thing for packing which this is i've been so excited for this interview because it's so different than everything I feel like I've tried to formulate.

16:45I'm someone who likes to pack in outfits. And I was very, very inspired by you saying pack by mood. So like, let's take the skirt I'm wearing, for example, you would bring this piece and build like four to five looks around just this one piece. If you had that in the suitcase, I would be like... By the way, guys, this is like a houndstooth black and white houndstooth. You've got the cable cream sweater, the black Napa boots. So you've got different textures playing and you're definitely giving polished and classic. And maybe with the length and the, the boot with the low heel, it's got a modern vibe to it.

17:24So if I were then adding something to that mix, I'm probably not going to add like a cotton button-down shirt because that's like more of that. Like I'm going to add probably a really big red sweatshirt. So it's a totally different vibe than the classic modern. Yes, because if you put on a red sweatshirt with that big and oversized, then now you've got something like if you want to feel a little cooler and chill and you just maybe even are going down for breakfast at your hotel, you're going to do that. And then I would pack a black bodysuit and like really different earrings. So then if you're going out at night, maybe some sheer hose and a sandal.

18:07So now like you've got something that is so like over the top, like ready for, you know, an amazing bar or whatever. So really like choosing a few key, it doesn't have to be the bottom. The top can be the key thing as well, but those key items and then being like, okay, I need super chill vibe. And then I need something that's like really cool for going out and something really classic. So don't think then three outfits. You want to keep, you know, morphing what you've already got in the suitcase. I think that's a great way to pack. You get, it's basically thinking in like multiples. It's like you get way more out of your suitcase.

18:46Way more. Say you're packing for a four-day trip. How many key pieces are you bringing? I mean, if it were me, I would, if you started right there with, I think it's about putting on like one thing that you know you love. So if we're going to start with that, so we've already got the other things, right? We've got a bodysuit, we've got a red sweatshirt, and we've got a pair of heels. So you've got three things now in addition to maybe what you can even get by wearing on the plane. So now I'm going to pack a big pair of like nylon sporty slouchy pants, like pleated nylon pants or track pants. And I'm going to wear that with the sweater.

19:25I'm going to maybe tuck those pants into that boot and then I'm going to have a big blazer on with it. So now I've added a sporty nylon pant and a blazer. So now I'm wearing the blazer, the sporty nylon pant with the bodysuit and that's creating an interesting look. And then I'm definitely wearing the sporty pants with the big red sweatshirt and maybe the heels and the hosiery and that's like a weird going out thing. I mean, you're kind of done. You're done. You're so right. And like, depending on where you're going, if you're going to Paris, you're going to pick up like a great extra two items.

20:01If you're going to Asheville, North Carolina, you're going to get a great t-shirt. Like you want to also be able to pick up some things where you are and not be so saddled with what you've brought. This was such a perspective shift for me. I can't wait to try this next time I pack. Amazing. I love how you analyze your closet. Like truly, there's a science to it. Yes. And I also have one of the reasons I love following you is because you've been able to break down the experience of getting dressed into something that feels really approachable. You've packaged it very well. And I know you wrote a book called Creative Pragmatist and volume two is coming out soon, which is so exciting.

20:40We'll talk about that a little later. But I want to get into some of those key phrases because a frequent question I get asked on my channel and in this podcast is really just how to get dressed every day, how to pick the right thing out, how to style a great pair of bootcut jeans. It's really the basics and the fundamentals. And that's why I really resonate with what you do. So talk to us about what a creative pragmatist is. A pragmatist is someone who really resides along the scale of highly creative to highly pragmatic. They move along that scale comfortably. They don't feel like they have to be stagnant in any portion of the scale.

21:19There are days where they can be very creative. There are days where they can be just really like much more minimalist, like a Sarah Harris or someone like that. And then there are days where they can just be right in between. And maybe someone like Tamu McPherson would be the stereotype of what that is. I love her so much. Right. And so, I mean, Tamu is a good example where, you know, you can see her just feeling very comfortable in a weird brown suit just as much as she is in a brown suit with a yellow bag and amazing earrings. And then taking the brown jacket, a yellow bag over a green dress with like weird tights.

21:59And, you know, but it's all Tamu every time. She doesn't look like she's flipped into a different individual. No, she like exudes joy through her dressing. She has such an archetype of her style that every time I see her on Instagram, I'm like, there she is. Yep. But she very much has those three adjectives. Everything that she wears is she always looks like she has ease to her. And ease doesn't mean that you're, you know, strolling along the beach in Malibu. Like ease means you don't look like you're about to bite someone's head off, you know, or you just don't look like you're the one who's going to be like, I'm calling the manager, you know.

22:36And then everything that she does has an air of modernity to it, but it's always a bit of familiarities there, right? Like there's something there that's going to be, you know, hearkening to something classic. So it's someone who really defines themselves as chill, modern, and classic, and it's always on their body all at once in some way. And so it's really key that you define who you are. And not everyone's a creative pragmatist at all. And in fact, 90 % of my friends are not. They would define themselves as super creative, feminine, edgy. They've got different adjectives that they would use.

23:22It's key to understand which ones really apply to you and lean into that when you're getting, not just when you're getting dressed, but when you're buying things. It's like you got to tackle the opportunity early on. So when you are buying things in the future, you really need to know where does that sit within your personal style and what is that going to do for you? I've always had a hard time with three words, not conceptually, but in practice. I feel like maybe I'm someone who sways on them, or if I pick my three words, I'm suddenly like, wait, I want this other word. Maybe one of my three words should be indecisive.

24:02Well, I mean, or, you know, it's not, you know, it doesn't have to be a negative though. Like I think that maybe you crave to be more chameleon like and unexpected, you know, like the idea of someone being able to anticipate your next move might seem like something that would just be horrible. Right. I definitely like to shape shift in my clothes. I think I dress for an essence. Yeah. Sure. Of course I have those days where I love, you know, know, I have that key piece I'm excited to wear, but I definitely chase a feeling. Like today, I really wanted kind of like classic New York, maybe a little like Ralph Lauren inspired, but I've always had a hard time finding those three words because of that.

24:40So for people who are listening who might also be like me, what do you recommend? What's the way into finding those three words? It's really about thinking of them as first principles. You want to drill down on words to describe yourself that once you've drilled down to them, you've really gotten to the core essence of something and that it can't be drilled any deeper. So for sure, I would imagine in your repertoire, it's got a classic has to be in there somewhere. And so once you've got classic done, you want to search for words that build that out a little bit further rather than being another synonym.

25:26You know, sometimes people are like, I'm classic, I'm heritage. Oh, yeah. And, you know, and it's like, oh, those, you know. It's all the same. It's the same. Look up synonyms and you'll find them. So it takes a while. And one of the things that we talk about is you define who you are in terms of these adjectives that are, but the ones that don't lock you in. I mean, chill is hardly, you know, putting handcuffs on you. That's why I like it. You know, it can mean a lot of different things to different people, but we also have people talk about what their modifiers are. So if I'm chill, modern, and classic, and if you turn out to be chill, modern, and classic as well, well, we can still be the same adjectives, but we don't interpret them in the same way because you modify them.

26:17And for me, things having a bit of humor to it is a way that I usually modify what I'm wearing. I really like to fuck things up a bit. What would you say to someone who looks at their closet and just has a bunch of stuff and no idea what to wear? I think that you need to understand who you are. You've got to get your adjectives down. Once you get that down, I break apart my closet into three categories. And that's what I call the without fails. Those are the fundamental pieces in my closet that every time when I put them on, they speak to chill, modern, and classic. They are my identity straight up.

26:55And for me, someone like me, that probably comprises is about 50 to 60 % of my closet. And then there is a portion of my closet that I call in and outs. And those are things that I'm really drawn to. I have an emotional reaction to them in that I'm like, oh man, if I buy that new Tibby or Lueve or Bottega, Balenciaga or something of, I'm just using those brands because they can conjure up quick images. But if I bring in that one item, it's going to make that blazer or those pants that I live in feel all of a sudden brand new. But those things that I'm drawn to, once you understand your adjectives, I can look at a, again, I'll use Loewe for an example.

27:47I can look at a Loewe top and be like, oh, but it's got this big sculpted sleeve and it's a really strong saturated color. And the fabric is really like strong and it's got an interesting point of view to it. I can look at that and be like, that is something that even though it's got all that strength and modernity and point of view, there's still elements of it that are still chill and it's very modern and it's still quite classic. And that's why when I look at the love and I love it, I understand that it's going to have a place in my closet where I can look at something from Chloe and say, oh, that's beautiful.

28:29I really love that. I can really appreciate it. but maybe there's one too many elements to it. There's, there's one bit of softness that is just too feminine for me and, and I can make one outfit for it, but I'm not going to make like multiple, multiple outfits. That's a big one. So I tell people when you're shopping for new things, you know, if you put on a top, but it requires the bottom from another brand to actually give you a feeling that you want, that's when you want to back away from it. But if you can put on that top from the way they, and you can put it with your favorite pair of pleated nylon trouser pants.

29:12And when people see you, they'll say, oh my God, that's so you, but it's you like 2.0 you, you know? And so those fundamentals with everything new that you buy, that's crazy and pushed, Those fundamentals keep you grounded and they make it so that you see yourself in something. So in your closet, you've got the fundamental pieces. You've got these things that are meant to come in maybe for two years, three years, and then you'll put them away for a while, but you don't call up the real, real. You put them away and then you're going to bring them back out later on when you're in the mood again for something cropped and big.

29:48And then in my closet, I have something that I call had to haves. and those are things that they don't have to make sense to anyone but yourself they're oddly emotional and you wanted them and you can't really explain why if someone came to me and they're like why did you buy that over the top fendi beaded weird skirt that is a mini skirt when you don't never wear many skirts. Like why? I could give you a hundred bases. I'm like, I don't know. I was really drawn to it. Yeah. And there's some things that are meant to be art in your closet and that's okay. Yes. And the thing is, is making sure that when you bring in those pieces that are meant to be art or that are meant to be art that you like hang up once or twice a year, don't get duplicative on those and don't purge them either.

30:43So purge things that overfill, overfulfill in that category. So yes, I just bought this Rabanne beaded like sequiny, jangly silver and gold bag, but that's it. I don't need, when I have an urge for a bag that I can fall in love with, I'm like, no, I've got that one bag in there. I'll wear it twice a year or whatever, but I don't need more of those bags. And I know from people that it works because we laid down this as principles over three years ago, and people write to me all the time and tell me they're buying so much less than they ever have. And I know that it works because when I set out to redo the book and come up with the CP edition too.

31:33I wanted to include new principles because that seemed like what you would want to do when you're doing a new book, but there were no new principles to add. And I didn't delete any of the principles. I was like, fuck, these were solid. And it almost got like, if I were to add more principles, it would be like, psych. It's like having a toned down collection. I didn't have to add new principles. And over the last three years, since I wrote the first book, I found clearer ways to describe them. I found better examples to communicate them, and I updated all the sketches. So I ended up rewriting the whole book, but I didn't change one of the principles or any of the core concepts behind the principles.

32:17That's really exciting. Yeah, because if you bought into it, you're not, you're going to really, like, it's not like, psych. A quick break from today's conversation to shout out our sponsor of today's episode, Birdie Gray for all of my winter brides and spring summer brides coming up too because we love being organized and planning ahead. I highly recommend checking out Birdie Gray. They have the cutest, most budget-friendly dresses that are perfect for any wedding vibe or aesthetic that you're working with. They believe that a wedding should look and feel great without breaking the bank, which is why all of their bridesmaids' dresses start at just $99.

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33:53Let's get back to the show. So addition two is just a deeper dive into the principles that are already there, that are already part of your foundation. That are already, yes. So if you bought the book before, I think you are going to get, I hope, much more juicier information to help you even better understand what you believe you already understand. We printed it. It was printed in London and they'll be on their way soon. Oh, that's so exciting. I can't wait to see it. I often get asked from people who are redoing their closets or they want to go and buy some new things. They're feeling like a little stale in their closet.

34:33And a question I'll get asked is, where do I start? What item do you think I should start with to help kind of redesign and re-inject some life into my closet? Well, I think that what I would define first is when you're saying re-inject some life in your closet, what most people are struggling with is they've got so much life happening in their closet that they're really just looking to create a stronger through line so that they can be more experimental with purpose. and and then other people are like literally you know they are literally starting out and and those people tend to be in their late 20s when they're like I'm ready for I know who I am and now I can't wait to get started with this and purge who I was and really get started with who I am I get that frequently from that age range but then also from new moms who are looking to revamp their style after having a baby yeah and and usually the new moms though a lot of them They were the younger person who had the crazy closet.

35:36You got pregnant, you had the baby, and then you're like, shit. So now you're figuring out not only just who you are from a style perspective, but now who are you with these little things running around you? And so that's where those fundamentals are key. And fundamentals are things that you really want to figure out, like, what are the perfect bottom pieces for you? And that's where you don't want to get duplicative if you know that you need the perfect eased out pant, the perfect tailored pant, the really chill skirt, the really sporty tight bottom. You want to really check off different moods and textures with what your fundamental pieces are.

36:23And you can get started with five or six pieces there. And I would definitely do them in neutrals. Do not try and like tackle that with something red or purple or yellow, but get those neutral items down and then get your, for me, I'm someone who wears jackets a lot. I prioritize, I would do jackets for me ahead of tops because I'm not a top person, right? Yeah, 100%. A great jacket can transform jeans, easy pair of pants. Yep. So if I'm going to be starting out my closet, I'm going to nail with two or three different jackets. I'm going to have something really oversized. I'm going to have something longer and leaner, and I'm going to have something more bulbous, rounder or something.

37:07so then I get three jackets and and ideally one's in like a tropical wool one's in like a nylon type fabric one is you know if the tropical wool was a navy maybe the third blazer-y type thing is a lighter color light gray or something like that and then maybe I'm going to make sure that I've got the range of the t-shirts that I need I've got the range of the button downs that I need And so right now, that's, you know, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, you know, 14 pieces that you need in your closet. And ideally, you've invested a little bit more than what you would normally spend on something. Because when you get those pieces right, you want them to last forever.

38:01I want to highlight before we close out one of my favorite of your tips, which is one ton or none. Yes. It's helped me so much in getting dressed in terms of what you were just saying, where the eye goes, training your eye. Yes. Could you talk us through what that is? One ton or none came about because I really try and help people figure out where the antsiness comes from when you're getting dressed. and what is your eye seeing as a result of how you feel that maybe even no one else is seeing. When you come out and your friends are like, oh my God, that's perfectly good. I don't know why you're upset.

38:36And you're like, it feels off. And one ton or none really gets to the essence of what is often off when you're getting dressed. And when your eye doesn't settle, you don't feel settled. And, you know, feeling settled is a really big thing because when you don't feel settled, it's hard to focus. It's hard to go into a meeting and tackle something at hand. It's hard to go in and analyze a problem properly. And it makes you snap at people. I snap at my husband. He's like, what the fuck did I do wrong? And I'm like, it's not you, it's my belt. Yes. That's a whole title. That's a good subset. It's not you.

39:17It happens all the time. It's my shoe. So I'm actually thinking about how many times that's happened. Yes. Yeah. You're like really pissed. Yeah. And you're like trying to figure out why. Yeah. And so your eye darting around can really make you crazy. And so even with what you're wearing right now with the cream and the tweed and the black, a red leather belt. Would be crazy. Like, where am I looking? I don't, I don't know. You know, right now my eyes landing right on that cream sweater. So even though you've mixed in a lot of different textures and everything, the eye is still going right to the cream sweater.

39:55And it's why you can look at a Balenciaga runway show where they're wearing like all this crazy color down the runway, yet there's something very oddly settling about it. it's your eyes not going focusing right in on like the turquoise skirt because it's also got the laminated pink high boots and the purple weird blouse and the print you know like it's so over the top that that's a ton and you're just seeing this kind of fabulousness down the runway and that's why i hate like in magazines when they talk about runway to reality and they'll show that over-the-top Balenciaga look. And they're like, mimic this look with a turquoise pair of pants and this printed Diane von Furstenberg blouse.

40:42And you're like, that doesn't work. It doesn't work. That doesn't work. Why? Because like your eyes bouncing around and then you're like, I'll put a sensible shoe on to calm it down. And you're like, that did not calm it down. That didn't help. It didn't help because it made your eye, you know, it didn't need a sensible shoe. It needed a weird ass shoe and a weirder bag. And you really have to lean in when you're doing that. I think it's a real bigger, go bigger, go home moment when you do ton. Yes. Yeah. Because if, if your eye is going to two different places, you did not nail ton. And that's why Leandra Medin for me is always a really great example of ton, a good ton for sure.

41:25I love, I love ton style. Yeah. That's where like my heart sings. I get so excited about it. I'm not good at it, but I love admiring it from afar. We always close out the show by asking one question, and that's if you could change anything in fashion right now, what would it be? I could write a stub stack with like 100 things that I would change in fashion right now. The number one thing I would do is everyone needs to stop making so much shit. Yeah. Just stop. This is honestly becoming the number one answer. Everyone says this. Stop it. I loved the example you gave in the beginning of like narrowing down your collection to key pieces.

42:00I think that that is such a great example to set for so many people. And I really hope, again, as a consumer, I would love to see more of that. Yes. Narrow it down. But that's why a quick wraparound, even as a brand, you have to figure out your adjectives because a lot of people get confused and they think narrowing it down means I am going to only do really dresses with lace and I'll do eight of them in eight different colors. And that's not narrowing it down. It's really lean. You know, you can be broader with less as long as you're doing it within your adjectives. It's when you are trying to be too many things that you get all over the place, but you also can't be too singular because then it's one note flat.

42:43Once people are done with that dress, they're done with you. Yeah. Let's like no more 60 look shows. I'm good. No, I'm good. No. Yeah. Give me a focus. Yes. Give me your three words. I agree. Thank you so much for coming on. I love you. I love getting inside your brain for a little bit. It's so much fun. And there were so many things that you said that are principles that I live by. Yeah. And you've completely changed my perspective. So thank you so much. Cool. All right. Thanks.

43:21Thank you.

43:50may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.