Inside Zac Posen’s Gap and a New Era of American Fashion

0:00You're the creative director of Gap Inc. You oversee Gap, Athleta, Banana Republic, Old Navy, and you've shepherded such an amazing moment of reinvention there. Thinking about reinvention is such a part of American culture. That's what brought me to Gap Inc. When I got this opportunity, I thought that each one of these brands had so much more to tell. I always in my career took risk. Do you think that fashion brands have to be entertainers now? I don't always think that the best is like the newest, the youngest, the hottest. Like, please, how passe and boring. I think that in my generation as a designer, we were groomed by the system with the Calvin, Ralph and Donna to the Michael and Mark.

0:45And that was it. That's what success looked like. To any creator, entrepreneur, you will never know it all. And you should never think you do. Old Navy and Gap have had unbelievable collaborations over the last few years. And immediately I knew I wanted to work with Christopher John Rogers. Big news, that collaboration's coming out today.

1:05Welcome back to Let's Get Dressed. Before we dive into today's episode, make sure that you're following the show, both on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, so that you don't miss a new episode. In case you want to watch today's episode, you can head over to YouTube. The full episode is available there too. And when you're done, leave us a review. I always love to hear what you guys think about the episodes, and it really helps the show go. Now, let's go get dressed.

1:31Zach, welcome to Let's Get Dressed. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to have you here. And welcome to LA. Thank you. Are you happy to be here? Always. Always happy to be here. I was going to say, I feel like LA looks good on you. What is like the Zach Posen LA routine? What do you like to do here? Well, I have an alter ego. Doesn't everyone in LA? That has grown over many years to LA. You like Richard? Jack Rosen, J-A-C. Tell us more. And, you know, Zach touched down really as an adult, never really having spent much time here. I did have an aunt and uncle who lived here that I got to visit a few times, right?

2:09So as a young child, I have memories of a little house kind of off of Melrose with an amazing fig tree in the backyard. And I remember an early, early trip to Disneyland, you know, where I was traumatized, you know, by the Haunted Mansion and like total meltdown before probably not being tall enough to go on Space Mountain. And that was L.A. Yep. And then many years later and many years of the movies and the entertainment industry, which are a really big part of my upbringing and part of forming who I am. You know, I arrived here at 21 years old for my first Oscar weekend and my first trunk show on Sunset at a boutique store called Tracy Ross.

2:59The beginning of this amazing relationship that I've had with Los Angeles and Hollywood and the entertainment industry and kind of been like a second home for me. I get this energy when I'm here. The inner producer in me comes out and it's kind of an amalgamation of a lot of different learnings. I got to visit an amazing tour and got to see Walt Disney's office. It was incredible. And you felt it in the air. It was meticulous. I went into the library, right? Because there's all the clues of the storytelling that was told and stories that were going to come that never came to fruition during his time.

3:42Because his level of imagineering and his work ethic. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable to be that visionary, to be that driven with a level of perfection and sense of care of making the impossible possible. Understanding the real deep importance of bringing joy and dream to a larger public is something that I can really, really relate to. When we started to prepare for this episode, the first words out of my mouth were, he's always been my fashion Walt Disney. Oh, that's very kind. Like just a perfect marriage of entertainment and fashion and magic and wonder. Like I lived in New York in the mid 2000s and it was such a big time to be living there.

4:35And I always felt that way about you. And I actually, in learning more about you, heard that before you were at Gap, you thought about becoming an Imagineer. I did. And that is one of my favorite documentaries ever. It's an amazing documentary. Amazing documentary. and it all for me, like when I see you, all of that makes perfect sense. So I love that you opened this podcast. That's where it naturally went. That's where we are. I love that. What a cool full circle for you. Yeah. To have loved those things and then be able to like actually bring that to the world. I have like pinched me moments.

5:05Yeah, it's really, that is like - I had dinner with my CEO and it's like, how was your day? And I was like, well, I had this, this, and this. We share a real appreciation of great imagineers and entrepreneurs in that way. So, you know, the things that we kind of geek out about are very similar. You are someone who, to me, is at the epicenter of this incredible shift in fashion right now. Yes, it's about incredible product, and it's about clothes and all those amazing things. But I think in order to have a conversation with consumers today, you have to be touching a lot of things. You have to be doing the fashion attainment.

5:42You have to be doing the pop culture and the viral moments and really having a bigger conversation. I want to hear about the last two years of your life and this major moment that you have had in reinvention. One, of course, you're the creative director of Gap Bank. You oversee Gap, Athleta, Banana Republic, Old Navy, incredible brands, and you've shepherded such an amazing moment of reinvention there. But also what an incredible moment of reinvention for you personally. So I want to hear about the last two years. What has reinvention really felt like to you in practice? Wow, that's a great question.

6:15Well, I feel like I have over 20 years in fashion that led me to these past two years. Thinking about reinvention is such a part, again, of American culture, right? This idea of self-invention and reinvention are so at the core. and it's part of the cycle of creativity. It's part of like the cycle of nature. I mean, I can bring it down to like, I mean, I'm East Coast. I was just there. So like it's spring and it's like everything's coming alive again. And what is that excitement and what can you then plant in a garden? I mean, it can get that kind of grounded and earthy and into that. I'm a gardener.

7:02And so it's, it's, it is like, I don't know, like building a business is like growing a really beautiful garden. right? You have perennials that come back. They still need pruning and nurturing. That's like your P &L. It needs fertilizer. It needs editing. You have annuals that come in that are refreshed. That's like really great collabs. It's like all of those elements there and it builds on itself and hopefully grows and builds and gets better and stronger and creates something that becomes more meaningful and personal to the people that interact with it. When I got this opportunity, I thought that each one of these brands had so much more to tell and growth as well as deep integrity, right?

7:52Like they had lasted, they had lived, they had been through multiple different ups and downs and chapters, which within my life and career, I've had as well. And so I understood this. And the two things kind of aligned at the same time. I'd done some cool projects. And it was really important what the next thing that I do would be. I've had touch points with them that have collected new groups of people. and, you know, from being on TV to documentaries to starting so young for people that, you know, were interested in fashion when it was still in print. Because I started before the internet. The good old days.

8:33Good old days. I learned the system first and got to see that and really live it and live through the growing pains of the transition as well of media. But it's cool now. I think being on the other side of that, you kind of get to be the translator. I got it. I was always there. I always in my career took risk. I always, you know, I would always trust my instinct because I didn't come from the industry. I started really young working in it at like 16, but I didn't really know the industry. And so it was just like understanding feeling and culture and applying that to what my mother, sister and I were doing in the early stages of building my business.

9:18And I took a lot of hits for it. Sometimes I would say like even on our runways was like two years ahead. And really fashion is all about timing. So coming to Gap Inc, you know, I knew that this was an opportunity, if it was right, that was going to take a larger public on my next chapter. And I felt like for our four iconic brands, it was time for these brands to be reintroduced to a new audience. I've heard in an interview once you described Gap Inc. as a country, which I loved. That like made a lot of sense to me. I was like, each has its own state, but they all somewhat work together. And I love hearing that you say that it like took a second to really understand.

10:02I'm learning every day. Of course. That is the key. I just want to say to any creator, entrepreneur, you will never know it all. And you should never think you do. And you have to keep your eyes open, your ears to the ground. and if you want to be a great creator or an entrepreneur, you must be open to learning something every day. And when you're working on an enterprise level with a group of incredibly talented other members of senior leadership, with Richard at the helm, we're really working on the construct together collaboratively that isn't just what ends up in the store, but it's even company culture.

10:45And that's why I say a country, right? We have things, we are dealing with a lot of the things that, you know, happen in a country and we have to react to those quickly. But we also have to know like who we are, what we stand for, you know, what our community stands for represents. And there's like kind of different governing bodies that take part in there. And we are a human business. We are creative. At the end of the day, this is a creative corporate business, which I didn't even realize when I went into it and have over time. Like, it is so rare. It's so rare that something was built like this over time and has sustained and grown and lasted.

11:29Is there something in the beginning when you joined that you were, like, immediately excited to evolve? There were so many things. I haven't been into an Old Navy since, like, summer camp shopping. I mean, I was definitely like dreamed when I was a kid to being like, I wanted to be a Gap Kid. There was a Gap on 6th Avenue in the West Village of Gap Kids. You know, those original store designs were incredible. It was, you know, the idea of modularity, modernity, color. But I got there and the product looked incredible. I thought we could bring in great American designers. let's take a stance on that with Old Navy and you know I don't always think that the best is like the newest the youngest the hottest like please how passe and boring like there are incredible icons of fashion and great talents that can be from the established to the emerging to the stars of the time and let's have this opportunity to highlight them, sometimes tell their story to a larger public, but also provide incredible product of design to our customers.

12:45And let's use that also to bring in people to see the rest of the amazing work that we are providing and amazing pieces. Of course, the opportunity immediately within the reach and scale and value proposition that Old Navy is able to provide was just beyond. It is something that takes time to learn. I mean, in certain places, other parts of the business felt like just a larger scaled version of what I had learned within my own brand or working at Brooks Brothers or from a corporate standpoint, working with Delta Airlines. I mean, I've touched in different areas in my career, but there's other elements that become a different kind of art and science.

13:35And that was really cool. and just the scale of what we're able to impact, but then work on slowly progressing or setting up the footsteps, basically, to get to those big unlock moments. Activewear was a huge thing. By the way, the activewear is very good. Old Navy activewear. I mean, it's beautiful. Our head designer, Sarah Holmes, who's head of design, is amazing. The compression is so good. I like PowerSoft. I feel like it is so underrated. So I'm here to say to everybody, Old Navy. Well, it's the best kept secret. Yes. It's the best kept secret. It really is. Today's episode is presented by Depop.

14:15If you know me, you know I am big on a closet reset. I genuinely think that when your closet feels organized, your brain and life does too. So how many things are in your closet right now that you have loved when you bought them? Maybe you wore them once or twice, but now they are just sitting there. Here's something that I have realized. that random vintage blazer or dress that you bought for that birthday or dinner, someone is searching for that exact vibe right now. And that's why I love Depop. It's a resale app where you can buy and sell fashion. But what makes it feel different is how easy it is to actually list something.

14:48You literally snap a photo and their AI-powered listing fills in the details. It gives you smart pricing suggestions. You can accept offers, boost listings. And it takes what feels overwhelming and makes it feel like a very low lift. Also, no seller fees. So if you're clearing out one bag, five pairs of jeans, or doing a full closet edit, what you earn is actually yours. So download the Depop app and list one thing that you're not wearing today. You might be surprised at how fast it finds a new home. And our denim. I mean, obviously, across the portfolio, we are denim. We're denim heads. So I spend time in the wash houses, which is where you develop denim.

15:28I mean, I'm a process person, right? I think sometimes I've been seen as a front guy or the razzmatazz at the front or as a performer, but I'm all a process person. I mean, I am a draper and an artist at core, and that's my happy place and actually where I think a lot of my personal inner magic can happen. And sometimes we get to see that work there. But I try to apply that same type of mindset of draping and that personal creative process into the architecture and nurturement and advice and care I bring to each part of all of the brands across the portfolio. It's so interesting to hear you say this because I find that you're both creative and execution driven, quite literally, you are a very hands-on person.

16:25And I find that as a creative, sometimes I will have like these big ideas, but actually putting them into play is very challenging. I've been a gown maker in my life, which is like being a baker. Right. For people who are listening who are creative, how do you actually implement these things? Especially now you're working at a huge corporate structure. Step by step. Core foundation. Idea. Are you writing it down? Tell me about this. And I have people that, you know, I go really quickly. In a large system, there's many steps. And it really depends on the task. It can be a color of a wash. It can be a talent for a campaign.

17:03It can be a conversation X, Y, and Z, Parker Posey. It can be active like Lindsay. You know, it can be that moment. My mom, who I worked with for many years, discussed it as trying to be a cultural receive dish. Ooh. That's how she described it. She's like, Zach, you're like a cultural receive dish. And it's like, it's not really, sorry, AI, on that one. I don't think that's something that can be totally algorithm. No chance. And it is feather in the wind. And it's just, and it's ear to the ground, of course, there. And it's having those moments and those feelings. And those are the things sometimes that have the real breakthrough.

17:46It's all, it's the. It's a sixth sense in my opinion. It's there. It's like the slurry of it. You have always had that sixth sense in my opinion. Thank you. I want to get into some of those real life kind of culture examples because I do think that you are someone that has such a knack for like following exactly or having a premonition about where the wind's going to go. I mean, Old Navy and Gap have had unbelievable collaborations over the last few years. You brought up Lindsay, Old Navy and Anna Sui. I want to know what this unlocks for you Because since you've joined as consumers, we've had unbelievable moments that you have brought to the forefront of pop culture.

18:22So what has that unlocked for you as a creative? Well, it's affirming. It's affirming in some places. I touched the wind. You told you so. And, you know, it's something that when you are in business and you are, you know, challenged, running your own business is challenging. You know, my career was challenging with many wins, right? I'm never playing a small violin. Right. Feel very fortunate within all kind of moments of my career, but definitely challenging at times. It is affirming. Like, it's like, okay, and now I have basically the right platform, right? It's like being in the right place with the right resources potentially to do them.

19:09and not saying that it's not challenging even to get big ideas into work, but it's like I'm in the right place where I can use those different instincts that are more than just what talent to wear. A dress, which has been, you know, was a big part, I think, of within my own career in spotting kind of the up-and-coming talent and who to dress them in, and I still apply that today. You know, I love that story of comebacks. I love the introduction of newbies. I like icons and obscure. You know, what's fun about this is one of my favorite things I remember reading, I think it was in your profile in the New York Times, Richard Dixon, who's the CEO of Gap, said that one of the most appealing things about you as he was considering bringing you in was failures that you've had in the past.

19:58The fact that you have failed. He said that was so appealing. And I find that interesting in what you're saying right now, because it is true that once you had the right infrastructure, the sky was the limit. You have to swing big still. You're not going to hit all the time. You have to be okay with that. There's something about resilience. You have to have that resilience. It is try again, try again, keep trying. You're responsible. You want to hedge your bets each time. Do you think that fashion brands have to be entertainers now? I think brands are entertainers in themselves. I don't think fashion needs to be entertaining always, but I think it's a choice.

20:37I think it's a choice of how you want to speak and what the scale of business attached to it need to be. There are quiet artists. There are artists that should be quiet artists. I don't think there's one way or the other, and I really hope that in culture, we learn to understand that. I think that in my generation as a designer of me and my peers, we were groomed by the system with the Calvin, Ralph, and Donna to the Michael and Mark and maybe Narciso in there. And that was it. That's what you had to be. That's what success looked like. I think the time trajectory of expectations of growth for that just didn't line up with the times.

21:27Obviously, we're in a changing time, retail, forget even direct-to-consumer. That came later in the game. Boy, do I wish I had direct-to-consumer and totally, for better or for worse, fantasize if social media and Instagram had existed when I was starting out. Social media has made brand designer and fashion and brands in itself a joy in entertainment. We have to step back like a thousand feet, like when we look back at this in, in 20, 50 years from now to a hundred years from now, you know, it's funny. Right. It is. I mean, we're like this, like, you know, human race that is like obsessed as these like global obsessions with brands and identity.

22:13And it's so quick and momentary. I mean, it's like, it's like, I don't know, it looks like gambling or it looks like probably what that experience is the first time we saw like like Timu or Shen or like, you know, whoa, it's like going into a casino for the first time. Like how kooky this must look and funny. So you got to laugh at all. Like you got to be like, okay, sometimes, you know, we have to take it seriously. Like we so deeply care and, you know, the care that we do within our collaborations, within our product, when we're doing a couture piece and the standards. And I mean, I can get snotty and about fashion and what I like and what I think is integrity to the extreme all day long.

22:51But it's all, I mean, it is clothing, right? It is part of our identity. There's a protective element to it, but it's not a necessity. Which is why I actually think now more than ever, I actually enjoy that there's a bit more entertainment to it. It doesn't feel as serious. It doesn't. Well, the system is different. Right, of course. Let's talk today, like, you know, Anna is on the cover of Vogue. So that's a monumental, like, I don't know. That rocked the boat for me this morning. That's a rock the boat. It rocked the boat for me. And it blurs reality with fiction. And that is a fine line, you know, that I have always been interested in to definitely have played with.

23:31Like, it's what is, where is that when you are a public entity in that way? And obviously at the forefront and the inner workings. I mean, it's amazing. I'm very happy that Anna did that. It's great. That's a mic drop. I thought it was brilliant. I think I'm really resonating with a lot of what you're saying of your beginnings in fashion because there's a nostalgia there. I'm nostalgic for the, you know, original feeling of like there was that separation. There was fashion and then there was entertainment. And so when I first saw it, I was like, wait, I kind of liked when they were church and state.

24:04Like I kind of liked when the entertainment was mocking the fashion or, you know, we were, they were separate entities. But then as the day went on, I was like, wow, this is a massive shift for fashion. This moment alone. So what if, why not? Yes. Like it opens the doors in a different way to, I think, a peek inside high fashion. And I think it further solidifies, I think, what you like to call is fashion attainment. I do think, and it's why I asked the question, is do you think fashion has to entertain today? And I absolutely think it does. And the fact that that came out this morning, I think is a perfect example.

24:38It can happen in big ways like that. It can also happen in the power of the clothing and the product when you put something on. Right. Right. Because that is itself entertainment. My favorite red carpet looks in the past year have been gap looks. Laura and her, that look at the Met Gala I thought was sublime. Thank you. I loved what Barbie just wore to the Oscars. And I read that that was inspired by the big gap shirt. It is the big gap shirt. A whole skirt is a shirt. Enlarged it to the size of her very itty bitty. cinched waist with a serious corset in there. I mean, we did some serious boning and cinching that she loved.

25:15Incredible. But it's to that and then basically the whole front of it and then the sleeves are just tied in the back. I don't know. I was looking at these like beautiful photos of Winona Ryder in Age of Innocence and bustles. And obviously like, you know, 1880s are like somehow, you know, again, feather in the wind, which is interesting, especially in a moment of invention and change. I don't know why. I mean, I always try to look at times in history, I mean, like fashion history, and thinking of that time, I think of like the trains starting and, you know, what was happening, right? Like the change of the world, basically.

25:56And maybe we're at that kind of certain period of time there. It's been a fun place for me, at least within all the different corporate work that I do. to have a creative output. I apply that same kind of energy and passion to the work in terms of how we take Old Navy into the future. Anna Sui, that was an amazing one, right? It was like, who could we bring in? It was our first collab. It took about a year to convince everybody at Old Navy to do a designer collab. When you're in a country, there's lots of planning and systems. and sometimes painfully, you have to be patient and find the right timing, the right resources.

26:39And Anna has a sense of whimsy to her. She's the original cool girl and it was a big success. And so once we saw the first product coming in, I will say it was a really interesting collaboration because it was also part of the digital transformation of Gap Inc. that's happening, right? As we look into the future, I'm a sponsor of AI in the company from the creative side. And that's a lot of responsibility. I mean, I said early when I got together, what's our superpower? It's like, well, we're close to the center of the world and the transition of technology. And I actually don't believe that they are going to fight each other if we participate in evolving it.

27:25So you're advocating for it in the office? Yeah, I think in the right places, absolutely. I think that it is a responsibility of creator. I think it's inevitable. I won't get too boogie that I think it's like next life evolution. What defines life is a really interesting conversation today. And I quite frankly don't know. I wouldn't broadly say that, but I think that it mimics elements of it and mindsets within a wide cultural receive dish. But it is important that all creators at every level take the helm of that. Our responsibility to our work, to our humanity, and to the algorithm itself. So part of that was that we use these tools to kind of bring our design process quicker and faster with our manufacturing partners.

28:24and it was like we were our team was in the archive with Anna I mean she pulled out her you know the original grunge dress that was made and we got to remake that and she'd never re-editioned that and it was like being able to story tell a part of American fashion with an icon that felt like almost more relevant to me at this moment than she'd been ever and I was like let's I felt like so honored to be able to take that opportunity and to take her world and bring it there. And that 90s nostalgia felt really right. And then, you know, you look at the different kind of cadence, like if you're, you know, like an orchestra and you're bringing the sound down, then you bring it up.

29:06And then it's like, we're going into spring and joy and color. And I wanted to celebrate an incredible young American designer at the forefront. And immediately I knew I wanted to work with Christopher John Rogers. Big news. You heard it here first. Yes. that collaboration is coming out today, which is very exciting. I wanted Christopher so badly. I thought that his sense of color of American heritage clothing reinterpreted was like the perfect match for our second collaboration for Old Navy. Anna was our test baby. And then, you know, Christopher becomes our sophomore. And, you know, he is bright.

29:50He's shining. the pieces are so cool and beautiful in this collection it's like amazing dresses with great prints separates a killer tote bag amazing kind of cargo pants which hark back to like our old navy cargo but like done luxe with a matching jacket which i'm matching jacket there yeah you look fabulous i mean the details are amazing very cool great polos and this heavyweight cotton with big color, beautiful stripes with a cotton woven color. I just think the pop, the color, the contrasts, that sense of joy. Old Navy is a house of joy. And we invite everyone to come play with style. That's how we look at Old Navy.

30:37What's the one piece you're like everyone? I can't choose. But what I am choosing to do is get the tote bag. It comes in this beautiful fuchsia and red. Fun. Almost like a Bugondelia fuchsia. And it's in a canvas and it has tubular piping in it. I mean, it's a really chic, cool tote. It also comes in a natural canvas with a contrast black trim. There's a little CJR, which gives us like a little prep element into it. I'm going to want like the white shirt with the rainbow colored buttons. That is like so quintessential CJR, which I love. I love that you brought that in. I mean, Christopher to me is one of the best designers today.

31:17He actually was one of the first guests on this podcast six years ago. Oh, wow. Yeah. I met him actually, believe it or not, I met him when we were both in college. Okay. He didn't have his brand yet. And I went down to SCAD because I was on the jury panel for his senior year. He was showcasing his collection to graduate. And I will never forget seeing it. You knew it right away. Right away. It was immediate. Was it the plaids? It wasn't the plaids. There were a lot of feather boas, bright pink, bright orange, a lot of stripes. It wasn't the collection that we know now. It was like the pre, pre, pre collection to his first collection.

31:51His scad collection. His scad collection. Having been in high fashion like that, but now designing for millions, like Old Navy is one of the most beloved and biggest brands in the country. I wonder what you think about American fashion today as someone who has just seen it in so many different forms. I mean, I've seen this evolution, this morphing of an industry and being a fashion designer. I think I'm optimistic. So I think it's an amazing opportunity moment. I think with actually social media, you have an incredible opportunity as a creator to build your world, to think about it broader, to be able to express it directly to your consumer.

32:34although challenging you don't have as much retail to wholesale to i do think there's power in in direct to consumer and the learning of that and a power of taking re-ownership of expectation of scale i think that that was something that was just as we talked about early that was so much in play these demands that were put on a generation that i grew up in of how big could you get how big licenses could get you know and these formulas that were in place Just like, you know, the press was a formula and how it worked. These were formulas. And it just doesn't apply to today. And I think that having that authenticity today as a creator, you can build a really strong brand that has really important moments and DNA and integrity that have impact without necessarily, you know, being the biggest designer brand on the block.

33:33I think about that a lot as someone who's spent the last 12 years in fashion and seeing like what resonates with me and what doesn't. I completely agree with you. I feel like 10 years ago, it was about scale. It was like, how big can we get? How global can we become? And I think the things that resonate most with me now are the people that don't, like their ambition is to make something really good. It's not to go to the moon. Like you'll go to the moon with the product, but I have felt that shift in fashion and I think it's for the best. Yeah, I mean, education and working with students have been really a part of my entire career.

34:06And I will say that I've watched a transition of topical. It was really interesting. I mean, I've watched topical in terms of like to form to now construction. So I feel like for a long period of time, designers that were emerging would work on topical solutions, embroidery, technique. Then it became kind of form, shape, right? And it was almost topical shape and form. Now, when I see emerging designers, they are so obsessed and in touch with things that when I started were like my obsession and things that were which were about construction, form, seeming, and that being the integral design language.

34:59I don't know if that's like that. Maybe social media has zoomed in people, look closer at something. But that is what's happened. And it's really exciting and refreshing to me because for a long time, and they all have their great place and purpose. I love an embroidery. I love topical and I love form, but at the essence, the anatomy and construction of clothing seems to be such a priority for designers emerging and that in touch with form that it definitely will result in some great experimentation. And, you know, if we can figure out how to make some of that and start bringing that to a larger audience and to a larger consumer base, I think I'm really excited.

35:47I want to look forward a little bit. What are the things that like just light you up now when it comes to successful moments? What is the barometer for you that feels like something has truly worked? Oh, when I see it on the street. Love. That's really simple. There's nothing better. There is nothing better than seeing that moment. You know, I think being part of somebody's like special day, like a wedding in my past life, and it's still really important to me. Like if I get the opportunity, which never and very rare, you know, to see that, like those have been really special moments. It's like being able to paint somebody's portrait as a one of a kind piece.

36:29But even when I had a line in my past life at David's Bridal, truly Zach Posen, like that had a special purpose because I knew I was, I knew what I put into each one of those pieces. I guess that was a good learning lesson for like making at scale with construction. Yeah. Never thought about that in there. I was like hands, needles and pins in there working on those pieces. But seeing somebody on the street like that, just so cool. And then seeing when somebody reinterprets it into their wardrobe and style every day. I think every job you have just chips away at like the sculpture of what it is you're going to feel most filled by later in life.

37:06You just don't know what you're going to learn from it. Right. Even if it's bad, even if it's a job you don't like, like I really think you're always going to take something away. You know, what was possible? how to push construction, you know, and I mean, the people that worked with me were really great teachers of what was possible, how to be smart about making things at scale in that way. And, you know, I didn't see that as a, as a confine. I saw it, you know, as, as an opportunity. And I think that's how you have to, how one, whatever field they're in has to look at, at, at their building blocks of life.

37:40I also think that finding one's creativity, I feel like my purpose, I'm here for people to act on their own creativity. It's tapping into your own imagination and the expression of it through creative choices. Those creative choices can be really simple, but I think they're as important as sleeping, kissing, as eating. I think expression of creativity is a human instinct. And that can be how you make your eggs in the morning. That can be how you choose to dress your kids for school, how you dress yourself. It can be how your Instagram looks. These are all creative choices. And taking that responsibility of self-expression is something that I think can be really fulfilling.

38:40And I hope that somehow my purpose, whether it's being able to create and bring, create myself and make people dream. And that inspiration, not only just on their fantasy of wearing that piece, seeing somebody and feeling that they're beautiful, or just knowing that it's possible to even have a career where you can make something like that is, is a purpose. You have the most incredible creative advice, but I also love the way that you style Gap and you style Old Navy. And so I want to get some great styling advice from you for all of our listeners, starting with, I want to know. Yeah, drumroll everybody.

39:20Really big, hard-hitting questions. What is your best piece of advice for elevating a pair of jeans? A great belt. It's that easy. I think a really good belt. And it doesn't have to be a fancy belt. I found like a belt in my hubby's like closet and I thought it was like really fancy and something that it was like, no, no, no, that was like the$2 belt. But it just felt good. It looked good. And it gave that confidence. I think it makes the shape of an entire outfit. Yeah, totally. So I think a great belt. What makes that there? I mean, I like a burnished finish. I don't like a brushed finished.

39:54Okay. I like a honed finish. Always look for like a brass. Okay. Brass is a great color. It goes in silver. It goes with gold. It's in between. I like when it just has like a matte, smooth finish as if it had been like a saddle, you know, a piece of a horse that's been worn. What is one thing that you think every woman should have in their closet? A little black dress. You got to have a little black dress. Have to. Everybody needs their Audrey moment. And I think the little black dress can have its own interpretation for everybody. Oh, totally. I'm not, I don't wear a lot of minis. I feel really sexy in like a midi.

40:30mm-hmm. You could have a low back. You could have a little cowl neck. But to me, that feels like an Audrey dress. I feel really sexy in that. Listen, it's shape. Yes. Black is silhouette. It's shape. It becomes a frame. It's human. It is expression in that way. Black is a color that actually takes interpretation in many different ways. I am all an advocate for color in the world and expression, but I think it's a staple that every woman should have. Okay, lastly for men, what is an easy way to look good every day for guys? Put on a shirt. Just put on a shirt. Just put on a shirt, guys. Just put on a shirt.

41:09Please. Put a button-down shirt. You can wear that with jeans. You can wear khakis. You don't have to put on a suit. Button-down shirts. A great, an Oxford shirt, a great colored shirt. If you're not going to put on a suit, put on a jacket. I think shirting, you know, just always, you know, great white shirt is so elegant and chic men and women. Like that's just such a great, great look. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. It was so great to chat with you. And during such an exciting time, I hope that we see you next at the Mecca. Maybe. We'll never know.

41:41We'll never know. Gotta get busy. We're holding out hope. Can't wait to see it. Thank you so much again. Thank you.

41:59Thank you.