Phia’s Phoebe Gates and Sophia Kianni Want to Shake Up How We Shop

0:01Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Let's Get Dressed. It's your host, Liv Perez. Today we are joined by two entrepreneurs who I have loved following over the last couple of months, and that is Phoebe Gates and Sophia Chiani. They are the co-founders of an app called Fia. It's designed to help shoppers like us find the best deals across the internet via a price comparison tool. Basically an app for girl math. You can consider it your savvy personal shopper, or maybe even like Google Flights for clothes. In today's episode, Phoebe and Sophia tell us all about how they met at Stanford, the aha moment that led to FIA, and their mission to bring transparency, sustainability, and efficiency to online shopping.

0:41We also chat about what it's like building a business in your 20s right out of college, the best advice Phoebe's dad, casually Bill Gates, gave them while they were building the app, and how their podcast, The Burnouts, which is available on Alex Cooper's Unwell Network, is chronicling their entrepreneurial journey in real time. I hope you guys loved today's episode. If you want to try FIA out, It's currently linked in the description of this episode. I have loved using it, especially if you're looking for an item that maybe you don't want to buy full price or brand new. It also helps you track across secondhand platforms like the RealReal.

1:12So it's a major, major game changer for the fashion industry. Before we get going, a quick housekeeping note. If you love this podcast, you will definitely love my new Substack newsletter, Let's Get Dressed. As a subscriber, you will get weekly fashion deep dives, daily styling tips, trend forecasting, and access to an incredible community of fashion lovers alike. And as a thank you to you guys for being my podcast listeners, I'm giving you three months free when you subscribe for the full year. That's just$63 for exclusive content and access to my private style chat where you can ask me questions directly, like what to wear to a friend's wedding or how to style that new shoe that you just got for your closet.

1:52You can sign up through the link in the show notes and I hope to see you guys there. Let's go get dressed with Phoebe Gates and Sophia Chiani. Welcome to the show, girls. Thank you for having us. I'm so happy to have you both. Also, I love that you both just said that in unison. I feel like that's... That's the first time that's happened. Maybe like 24 hours a day together for the last week. So I think it's been happening a lot. Well, we always start the show asking what you both wore to pod today. Phoebe, let's start with you. I'm wearing a vintage little Chanel dress that I'm obsessed with. So cute.

2:23I'm wearing a secondhand Saint Laurent jacket. And I actually don't know what these boots are, but they're also from the real real. They're really good. They're really, really fun. I wear these a lot. I like a form-fitting boot. Sometimes when they're too, like, baggy and big, I feel like I'm, like, clunking around, and those are really nice. The only thing is taking them off is a real pain, but other than that, I love these. Yeah, you need someone to take them off for you. Exactly. What are you wearing? I'm wearing these vintage Dior heels. I am a diehard vintage Dior heel fan. I, like, get so many off the RealReal.

2:54and then I'm wearing a pair of frame jeans that I got on Depop question mark and then I got this at a thrift store actually in New Haven. Wow you two are big thrifters. Yeah I feel like the reality is for us now because really what Fia is is a price comparison tool so as you're shopping this idea that hey can we get you the best price in one click does the item you're looking at exist cheaper on a secondhand site and then also showing consumers what is the residual value of the item Is it going to hold its value or not? Most of our consumers are not flipping their items, but they want to know, hey, is this a good purchase or not?

3:26Or is it fast fashion? It's going to depreciate really quickly. And so for us, frankly, as we've been building it, I think we've really become converted into secondhand finds or finding things that we know are going to hold their value. Like I got the St. Laurent Fraser for 150 bucks off the RealReal versus like three grand. And so that for us has been honestly a little bit of a turning point. I'd say most of what we wear is secondhand, but we're a little bit unusual in that. How do you both get dressed every day? Like, are you dressing for a feeling? Are you feeling excited about like a specific piece in your closet?

3:55So you're building an outfit around that. Sophia, why don't you start? I think it honestly depends on the occasion. If it's something like we're filming content or I know that people will be seeing me, I will probably pre-select something the night before that's just like casual jeans and a sweater. If we're just going to the office with our team, I'm 100 % going to be in sweatpants, to be honest. And I'm completely different. On Sundays, I plan all my, like if I'm going to the office for the week, I'll plan every single outfit for the office that week. No way. And then I like wake up every morning and I just grab and select and put it on, to be honest.

4:28And then on the weekends, like absolute like sweats, slob. And then we often go to the office on Sunday and that's the day I'm like, basically, like I'll throw on sweats over my pajamas and go to the office. Do you know who else does that? Who? David Beckham. William? Picks his outfits out every week before, every Sunday before the week. maybe we're alike in also our sports skills. Who knows? Totally. You're a pro soccer player. That takes a very specific kind of diligence. Like I would pick the outfits out and then Thursday would roll around and be like, what the fuck was I thinking? I'm not wearing that.

5:01That's me. Yeah. I feel like I have a couple staple outfits I go to. Like I'm a big re-wearer. So it's like, okay, I know that those like those work pants, like, you know, my like Wilfred, like Aritzia, like work pants, I know that I'm going to wear those. And then it's like, boom, put those on the rack. And then like four shirts, like I know I can throw on for the office with like an undershirt is easy for me. And then I'll do like a little heel. So it's like I just have like basics that I kind of repeat. Or if I know like I low cute was eaten in that one outfit, like I'll just repeat that like every other week.

5:30Aritzia workwear is undefeated in my mind. Blazers, work pants, anytime I have like a big meeting or something and I just want to look really good but not spend a fortune on something, I'm going to Aritzia. 100%. It's so good. I wish that they sold other places than just Aritzia. Oh my God, wait, you can get the best deals on Aritzia on the secondhand market. I am like never going to buy Aritzia firsthand for the work pants ever again. You can get them for like$80 on Poshmark and mostly Depop. Wow. Okay, I have to check that out. Yeah, see, you guys are influencing me already. How did you two meet?

6:05The two of us actually met as roommates at Stanford. So we met, we both had this mutual other girlfriend, and we didn't think that our sophomore year we're going to be rooming together. I thought Sophia was so cool. I was super nervous. And then housing ended up messing it up, and it ended up just being the two of us rooming together. Completely kind of coincidence. Don't you love when that happens? Absolutely. I was, I did cry. I did call my mom crying at first. I was like, I don't even know this girl. We're going to be living together. And we tell the story on like our podcast, but one of the first weeks, I was laying in bed and Sophia has this undeniable confidence.

6:36And I heard her like fake tanning in the mirror by herself. No guy's there. She's just by herself. And it wakes me up because she's so loud. And in the state of self-admiration, she's like, oh, this fake tan is developing wonderfully. And I literally came outside. I was like, Sophia, it's 3 a.m. in the morning. And she's butt naked just in front of the mirror admiring herself. And I like from that moment on, I feel like that's when like the curtain just like dropped. And we became super, super close and ended up just like being roommates together. And then, you know, as roommates do, we argued over clothes all the freaking time.

7:07Sophia will say that I stole her clothes. I'll say she stole my clothes. It was probably an equal mix of both. But that's when we really got excited about shopping. And we're like, what if we could actually innovate and like create something in this space? Yeah. What was that aha moment? Yeah. So when we first started working together, we were just trying to think of different concepts because we were at Stanford. We were taking like an entrepreneurship class. such bad ideas at first. They were horrific. We talked about it on the podcast, but like our first idea. You got to throw pasta at the wall and see what sticks, guys.

7:35You want to hear our first idea? Yeah, I would love to hear our first idea. We literally tried to build like a Bluetooth smart tampon. Like an aura ring for your pussy. Yeah, like that would tell you about your hormone health and stuff. And we realized, okay, we are not the right people to build this, nor do we know how to. And then so we really bonded because we started talking about, especially for me, like I was always secondhand shopping because my background's all in the climate activism space. So like I learned that like we have enough clothes in existence right now to dress the next six generations of humans.

8:04And like they're on average, there's like an 80 percent carbon reduction when you buy an item used compared to new. And so it was really important for me to shop in a way that was like aligned with my values. But I think one thing we talked a lot about is like shopping secondhand is pretty difficult right now, especially knowing if you're getting the best price. I remember I would like neurotically copy paste, copy paste into every single secondhand site, trying to find the exact same item and be like, OK, which one is the best price? And then we were kind of like, okay, wait, what if there's a way to kind of streamline and automate this for people so that in one click they can get all of the options and price compare from all the different secondhand sites so that they can save time and money in just one click.

8:41And to be honest, like I was a bad shopper. I was not thinking about secondhand at all at the time. And then Sophia put me onto these discounts and I was like, I don't want to get scammed. Like, I don't want to be a fool. Like, I want to get Prada Pants for 100 bucks. Like, are you kidding? It's ridiculous. And so our first iteration was really like, well, what if we just made secondhand shopping easier? And it really kind of developed as we kept talking to girls, we realized that people just want to get the best deal. 90 % of consumers want the best deal. And leaning in with that sustainability messaging doesn't actually work because it doesn't move the needle for people.

9:11What does is their wallets. So if you can align incentives and show a consumer, hey, that same item you want, yeah, it's an 80 % carbon reduction. it's also 50 % off secondhand, or hey, we found it on sale for you on another site and it does hold its value. That like kind of iteration of the product is really where we've come now of like, okay, what if we can just have Fia, which is the combination of both of our names, who's meant to be like your personal shopper, give you that insight as you're shopping. Guys, I'm still on the Bluetooth tampon. Why? I'm still there. It was, yeah. Because the concept basically was say, you know, you have your period every month.

9:46A lot of us are anemic. Like we have hormone health issues. And so we were like, okay, like what if you could knock out two birds with one stone? Totally. Like you wouldn't need to get a blood test anymore. And like every month you would have instant insights. For five minutes, it sounded like a good idea. Then once we were like, how would it actually logistically function? Does it connect to an app? Then we were like, we are way in over our heads. I like the way you guys are thinking though. We just weren't the right people to build it also. We really weren't like mechanical engineers. We wouldn't know how to do the tampon.

10:14And so I think for us, it became down to like, okay, what is something like that fits, you know, like the Ikigai chart of like, okay, what does the world need? What are we actually good at? And what can make money? And this idea of like, okay, and also like, what are we willing to dedicate for the next 10 years to work on? And for us, like, we're both pretty excited about fashion and shopping. We're not skilled. We're not going to be designing stuff ourselves. But hey, how could we just make that process easier for women? Because I think a lot of times we think about shopping, like it's really kind of demoted as like a non-intellectual task.

10:42But like, there is a way to shop like a genius. Like there is a way to get the best deals. Guys, girl math is a real thing. It really, really is. Yeah. And we realized really quickly, one of our first iterations was just showing you the resale value of an item because we're like, oh, people just want to know this so they can do the girl math and they can flip it. We realized very quickly that people don't actually want to flip items. That's a very niche community. What people do want is they want to know if it's a good purchase or not. And oftentimes resale value or knowing the material condition is a proxy for that.

11:10And so that's like what our new price graph does is telling you if the item's overpriced or not based on that. Okay, let's reel back. Tell me about the app from Square One. Tell me what a user would experience when they download Fia. Yeah, so Fia is a free shopping tool that basically you can download as an app. And the way that it works is as you're shopping, in one click, Fia tells you if the item is overpriced, if it's a low price, or if it's a typical price. And then it pulls all of the different options for you from across the secondhand market. You can really think of it as kind of like Google Flights, but for fashion.

11:42And so kind of like what Phoebe was saying, the way that it works is we have this price graph that tells you like this is the average secondhand price for the item. So if I'm looking at like a$200 dress, sometimes it'll tell me like the average secondhand price is$150. So that's where that girl math concept comes into play where people want to understand like, is this worth the price new or is it a better deal secondhand? A$50 differential is a mixed bag. For some people, it's worth it to buy secondhand. For some people, it's not. In another case, it's like you're looking at a$500 bag. The average second hand price is like$100.

12:15You're going to be like, okay, like I'm going to click view more and I'm going to go look at all the options in the Fia app. And then I'm going to price compare to find like which one is the best price for the best quality. And then ultimately we help people get the best deal. So it's basically like a mobile browser extension. So as you're shopping, the should I buy this pops up and then you click on it and then it gives you these pricing insights and these other alternatives. So for people who might be listening right now and say like, oh, I have honey or something like that. What is the core difference?

12:42Yeah. So we're not a coupon tool. We're really just an insight tool. We want to be your personal shopper. So as you're shopping, we want to provide you with insights. And we will say, hey, this item is overpriced, girl. You should not buy it. Versus like a tool that's like, okay, if you're going to buy it, we'll surf the web and see if we can find you a coupon. Our real goal is to tell you if you should even buy it in the first place. Yeah. I mean, I love what we were talking about earlier with this idea of girl math, like breaking things down, I think is not a new concept, but it plays a really big role in FIA.

13:10Like how did you guys think to bring this concept in of like, okay, there is a cost per wear here when you're buying things. Like why was that so important for both of you to bring into the picture? Honestly, it was something that happened a little bit by accident. So the first version of the product that we built was we built a desktop Chrome browser extension that basically anytime someone was shopping, we would just pop up the most similar secondhand items. And for so many items, like there are not similar secondhand alternatives. It's like a brand new item. And then we basically were popping up very different items.

13:42And people were like, this is not helpful. Like, I want to know whether or not this item is available, like the same item secondhand or a very similar one. And I want to know the pricing difference so that I can make an informed decision. And so that's when we were iterating on the concept and realized, okay, The girl math that also plays into this is that people want to understand the quality and value of items. So it's like the boots theory where you're better off investing in and buying one pair of$300 boots than over and over again buying a$100 pair of boots that after a couple months is degraded.

14:15You can buy one quality$300 pair of boots. You can keep it for three years and you're going to save more in the long term than that person, the chump who bought it for$100 and had to rebuy it five times. Yes, because it just kept getting degraded. And I was the chump when we were living together. I was 100 percent the chump. And then I was like, wait, this is genius. We should just make something that makes that math easy. And I think what's really nice is that it's obviously very expensive to purchase that three hundred dollar pair of boots. And that's where secondhand comes into play, where it's like Phoebe can get this three thousand dollar quality blazer for one hundred and fifty dollars.

14:51And then the cost per wear is even lower. And so I think it was a combination of like things that we anecdotally experienced, things that we thought would fix a pain point for us. And then talking to hundreds of women and asking them, like, what would you want to see in a shopping tool? Like, how can we build an experience for you? And it was brutal in the beginning. These women would come in and be like, this sucks. I would never use this. This is so confusing. And then over time, they would come back and be like, oh, you actually fixed the things I said I wanted. Like, there's a price graph now.

15:19I can see the resale value. Oh, thank God it's on a phone and not on my computer. So that's where I'm actually shopping. And so we really built like an incredible community around Fia and the end product, like the app that we have live now is really a result of like all these incredible women that we talked to who were so generous with their time and so invested in our journey. I mean, shoppers right now, I feel are so disoriented, like they're online, they're in store, the in-store experience is challenging. You guys just had this incredible experience where you were able to ask a full community of shoppers what they want to see out of the app.

15:51Was there one piece of feedback that you got that resonated with you the most in building FIA? I mean, I think really the graph is the thing we're most proud of because originally we tried scoring, we tried percentage of whether or not you should buy. We tried, you know, different things on desktop and that just figuring out it needs to be a very basic graph. Red, too high, don't buy. Orange, this is a typical price. You know, you make the decision, here's the secondhand differential. Or green, hey, this is a low price. you should buy it. That graph, like getting that down to be as simple as possible was the biggest takeaway.

16:25And I think it's not just about the graph. It's about all these things. We made things way too complex in the beginning where we're like, before we launch, like we need to have, you know, 800 features and you need to have price drops alert at the time you launch, which by the way, we're going to build price drop alerts. I can't wait for it to tell me when, you know, my item that I'm looking for is, you know, lower in price or that, hey, the thing on my wishlist This is now available at the price. I want it. But like realizing that we just needed to make it as simple as possible and address the pain point that we had in the market was the biggest learning that I took away.

16:57And it wasn't like the first time a girl told us that, that we like, we're like, oh, like we listened. Like it probably took, frankly, a hundred people telling us for us to be like, oh, wow, you are so right. We are wrong. We need to simplify this in the way we're doing. It doesn't make sense. And I think that that learning we've taken into like now everything we do. This is so interesting to me because I think of Prontemp, which opened here in New York, the designer store that is like unbelievably ornate. And there's a bar in the shoe room and the design is so crazy. And I think about that in contrast to Fia and knowing that you guys, I read an interview where you said most of your consumers are Gen Z.

17:34And just hearing you talk about that graph and how that graph and your user really crave simplicity, they're total opposite shopping experiences. What do you guys think about that? I mean, I think it's interesting because Gen Z and millennials just generally have very different shopping behavior than previous generations. So like 80 % of millennials in Gen Z consider the resale value of purchases before they make an item, like before they purchase it. And that's very different than my mom would never consider buying an item on the secondary market, nor does she know how to resell an item. And I think that also part of it is kind of to what Phoebe was saying, a big thing that honestly, we've had to learn how to do has also been to sift through feedback.

18:16And so yes, it did take us 100 people to tell us, but I think it was important because let me tell you, 100 people have told us to do a lot of different things that I'm very glad we didn't end up doing. Because when you press someone on the spot to be like, what do you want to see? They're going to be like, I want a digital closet that like blah, blah, blah. And we're like, that's amazing. We cannot build that right now. And nor does it like technically solve a problem. And so I think for us, it was also about like you can tell someone there's a problem with something, but that's very different than saying here is the solution to like shopping is super overwhelming.

18:48There's so many choices. It's very visually cluttered. That's a problem. Totally. Us having to be like, OK, how do we solve that was like a completely different ballgame. And so I think that's why it took a lot of iteration, trial and error, looking at other companies and their UI. So we tried like scoring. rings. We were like, this item is a seven. Better, still confusing when we were like, this item is green, good, low. Perfect. That was the easiest to understand. And I think when you talk like a store like that, like we're not a retailer, right? And that luxury experience is so important, especially when you are, you know, spending money on, you know, an item that you're going to have forever.

19:23You want that luxury experience. You want the in-store of like the bar, et cetera. I think for us, like our goal is you, the expectation for that discovery layer is very, very high. And our goal is to be your assistant at the end of that discovery layer. So while you're wowed by, you know, this amazing experience you have on an incredible e-commerce site at the end, we're there if you want to just give you those insights of, hey, at the end of the day, is this item overpriced and is it a good purchase or not? We're not going to be the ones wowing you with that incredible, you know, discovery experience, but we are going to be your helpful shopping assistant at the end to tell you, hey girl, you should buy this or actually, know that bar was amazing, but these things are still overpriced.

20:04While we're on the note of really good buys, I have just started to curate my summer wardrobe and have been getting so many good pieces from Jenny Kane recently. I have a discount code for you guys if you're looking for the perfect everything for the upcoming summer season. Great sandals, the perfect beach bag, sweaters, and dresses that can take you from lunch to a summer dinner party. There's one dress that I've been wearing nonstop from them. It's called the Blair dress. They have it in navy, white, and a few other colors. And it's just like the perfectly chic summer dress. It's not too like big and girly.

20:40It's quite refined. It has this very satin-like finish, a boat neckline. And it's one of those dresses that you can easily put black pumps on and go to an event or throw on sandals and go to the farmer's market on the weekend. In the summer, I live in those dresses that can take me from day to night because I just feel like I'm out all day long. I really love it paired with their Gia sandal. It's just a classic leather thong sandal that they have in a bone white and black. Perfect, easy, effortless. I feel like we've been talking about sandals a lot recently on the podcast. And if you're looking for a good pair that you're going to have for multiple summers to come, these are a great pair that are under$350.

21:21There are so many good pieces for your summer uniform. I'm truly going to be living in these. For a limited time, my listeners get 15 % off your first order when you use the code LIV, L-I-V, at checkout. That's 15 % off your first order at J-E-N-N-I-K-A-Y-N-E.com using the promo code LIV, L-I-V. Let getting dressed be one less thing we're worrying about this summer. What are both of your best Fia buys? Oh my God, I was telling Phoebe this. I was like, the moment that we are able to do this, I will actually feel like we made it. But there was this pair of black Dior heels, but very specifically, they had like a blue mesh underlay and I could not find them anywhere.

22:01They were like sold out or something. So they were only available on the secondhand market. But again, they would always sell out or they would be in the wrong size. So I found them listed on, I want to say the RealReal, but it was in the wrong size. And then I used Fia. This was actually the desktop version at the time, but I used Fia and then I found it in the right size on the RealReal cheaper than what I was looking at. And I actually like was about to cry tears of joy because I was like, hey, we got an affiliate commission. Let's go. But also to feet. Oh, my God. I was like, oh, my God, our product is like actually working.

22:34I was able to ID understand this heel was this heel and was able to pull all the relevant options, including other ones from the real real. And I was like, OK, if this is providing value to me, hopefully there are other girls, too, who want to be able to find an item they really are looking for or find it for a lower price. and like we're able to provide that value for them. Should I, would I have rather done that on my phone? To be honest, yes. So I think we still had some way to go. But I think it was at that point that I was like, this is like solving a problem for me. Like this is actually something helpful and useful.

23:05So I still like, they're my favorite pair of heels now. And it's literally Fia blue mesh, which is so funny. That's amazing. Yeah, it's your savvy personal shopper. Yes. Wow, your marketing is even better than ours. We're going to use that. Here I am, guys. It's your savvy personal shopper. I love it. And Kris Jenner was an investor, an early investor in you guys and one of the first guests on your podcast. I would love to know from the Queen Momager, what was the best piece of advice she's given you so far? Honestly, Kris is just such a marketing guru. I think she's part of the reason why we've also really leaned into creating media.

23:40Like there's a reason why they have the keeping up with the Kardashians and then they also have their own individual brands and then they sell things. And so I think for us, like a lot of what we've learned is that's kind of how we view the podcast is us as founders, like going on open sourcing our journey, like the shitty parts when the app is breaking, when things aren't working, we're balding a little bit. Yeah. And so and then hopefully with that, like we get people invested in our journey by just being honest and transparent. And then if they feel compelled to check out the product, like that would be amazing.

24:14But honestly, more important, I think it goes back to the idea of the community portion of like, the whole point is we want a community that is honest with us about this thing sucks or wow, this thing is really fucking amazing. And I think through the process of like, open sourcing our learnings on our socials, doing this podcast, like we've just continued to make the product better and better. And I think that's something that she has definitely done the best out of anyone I can think of at. And so I think her kind of giving advice on that has been extremely helpful. Also, just one thing, even kind of unrelated to Fia, but like general advice I think that we've gotten that was really good is she talked a lot about how whenever there's something creative, her family does.

24:52She's the first person that's asked to leave the room. And when they come to review a contract or there's any business deal, the CEO gets brought back in and she's there to negotiate the deal to make sure there's always an out for her girls, etc. And to make their passions, you know, actual businesses. And that like kind of high level learning of being really honest that, hey, I'm pretty good at this. This is my magic touch. And wow, I really suck at this has been a huge learning for me because there used to be a point in our relationship where I would be like, oh, well, we can both just do everything.

25:21And then we sat down one day and we were like, okay, well, frankly, Sophia, you're better at the marketing stuff. Okay, I'm really good at this. Like ops product stuff. Like, okay, let's sit down and figure out like where we both have our stride and where we can be honest. Like someone asked me today something about some, you know, marketing asset for Sophia. I was like, about that. Like, that is not my strength. Like, I should be the first one to absolutely leave the room in that situation because that's not my strength. And I think being honest about, like, just generally, whether you're starting a company, whether you have a co-founder, whether you're in a romantic relationship or in a friendship or you're at a job, like, just being honest of, like, hey, I really suck at this and I'm really good at this and this is what I enjoy, I think has been a huge learning for us.

26:00What has been the biggest challenge in building a fashion app? Honestly, probably not letting our own biases affect the product. Like we are staring at this app for like 24 hours a day. Like it starts to all blend into one thing for us. And so when we think something is really amazing, makes a ton of sense. I mean, honestly, the onboarding process has been our number one struggle. Enabling a Safari extension is low-key, extremely difficult. It's like a five-step process. Yeah. And so there's a lot of drop-off that happens in our onboarding funnel. And it started genuinely at like 2%. Like we would have 100 people go through.

26:39Only two would successfully get the end. So we were freaking out. At this point, we were literally like, is this even a salvageable idea? I don't know what to do. We just worked on onboarding two months. We have 40 girls come to the office and test it out. Luckily, people are so down if you tell them there's free pizza somewhere in New York. Like, Bill Conn. Thank God. Absolutely true. But it literally was the onboarding was so bad that like we had one night where we couldn't get like 40 people through. Like we got one out of 40 through and we were going to rip our hair out. I don't think we saw our boyfriends for two months.

27:04We joke about having a bald spot. Like we I think we both have matching bald spots in the back of our head. Like it was because those two months we were just like, oh my goodness, like we've built this application, but we can't get anybody on it. And that was like a huge that was a huge struggle. I think the reason was because we were looking at these screens and we're like, yeah, this is so easy. We're so smart. You just click this button and you turn it on like anyone could do this. User experience is a huge thing. Phoebe and I were just talking about that, about another platform. If the user experience is bad, I'm off.

27:35And they're probably not coming to you and being like, hey, like, can you explain to us what's confusing? And so we're watching these girls, like they're clicking all over the screen. They have no idea what they're supposed to do. I'm sitting there like literally with my mouth open so shocked because I was like, this was, I thought this was so simple. Like I spent 10 hours looking at the screen. I thought it was dummy proof. And then but then you talk to them and then they're like, well, I thought that this thought I thought I was supposed to click there. Right. I didn't know that that's where that was.

28:02Like you should highlight it more clearly. Or like I thought I was supposed to click on the arrow. Like you should have a tip pop up that says don't click on the arrow. But this is such a good learning. I mean, I think about how many moments I've had in my career where I'm so zoomed in on the thing. And if you don't take a minute to zoom out and think big picture or like bring someone else in to kind of get you out of that. It's not a creative rut, but like if you're looking at something for so long, you're probably missing a million other things. Yeah, a hundred percent. And we were missing a lot.

28:30But I think part of the perfection is the enemy of progress is our onboarding. Even still, like even after our launch, we were like, oh, there's like a couple things that are still confusing. And that's OK. Like it's better to we needed more data. Like we needed to get tens of thousands of additional people going through the flow to really understand like where is the most drop-off happening? Like what are people still confused about? And now we can use a lot larger scale data to further optimize it. But at a certain point, it's like, do your best, get as much feedback as possible, then rip the damn band-aid and it's good enough.

29:02And then you can continue to make it better. But I think that's also something we really struggled with is when is good enough? Like we kept aiming for 100%, 100%. Like that's never gonna happen. And at a certain point, you need to know, like I have put in my all. This really is as good as it can be in this period of time. I'm ready to get way larger scale feedback. And like there's always more more to improve. Phoebe, your dad has obviously dramatically changed the tech space. Is there any guidance he's given both of you as you've begun to build an app that I think will change fashion? I think he's very honest with us.

29:35He's not a shopper. He's not our target consumer. I have been helping him get, you know, good deals on his khakis now through the FIA app. Thank goodness. So we're getting him on that 100%. But he's been really helpful on figuring out how to be a better manager. Because I think he's learned so much through his career of like, you know, when he was young, like there's all this stuff about him being like super ruthless and actually learning how to give feedback to someone who isn't doing a good job, but in an actionable way of like, instead of just being like, wow, this sucks, like being like, oh, okay, this is how this can be improved.

30:07Or this is why this should be this way. And giving feedback to someone in a way that actually motivates someone. Like, I think it's something he really struggled with for a really long time in his career. And it's like advice that's just been golden for me of like learning how to do that. I'm bad at that. So I would so appreciate that advice. I think it's very underrated. Being a manager is incredibly difficult. Especially when you're a woman. Like, people just think you're a bitch. Like, if a man said something like that's just direct, honest feedback, you're going to be like, oh, yeah, OK, if a woman says it, all of a sudden it's like, oh, she's being so mean to me.

30:40Like, this is so rude. But it's just like at a certain point, you need to realize like honesty and transparency is the best way. Yeah. What are you guys excited about now with Fia? It's out in the world. I feel like I always hear with apps like the hard part is not getting it together. It's after. So how are you guys feeling now? Well, first, huge shout out to our team. Like this, we could have never done it without them. People were pulling all-nighters up until the last minute. And like I think we're now at number 23 on the top charts for shopping. which is like the most competitive category.

31:13Like basically cried tears of joy this morning, could not believe it. And so I think first acknowledging like this is a win. We worked super hard and I'm so glad that it's out in front of people. But two, like the real thing that we now need to understand is like in a month from now, like in two months now from now, what does the usage look like? Like what's the LTV of the customer? Like is the retention good? I think retention is the big thing that we're gonna be really focused on is like amazing. thing. First step done. We got people to download the app. Like the second step now is, are people going to continue to use it?

31:46That's like the question that like in a month from now, in two months from now, et cetera, like that's going to be the big thing that we focus on. But for now, like step one, we got a little bit accomplished. And so I think we're just excited to get more larger scale data of like lots of random strangers downloading it and for them to give us feedback. So I think we're going to make a concentrated effort, especially on our socials, to just ask people, hey, be brutally honest. What do you hate? Because that is what we want to know. Like, that's going to help us improve the most. I mean, look, the AI frontier for fashion, I think, is about to be huge.

32:18There's so much innovation that can happen. And obviously, you guys are at the forefront of that. So it's a very exciting time. Thank you. Yeah, of course. We're so excited. And we're so glad that you're talking about it. Yeah. What advice do you guys have for people? I mean, both of you fresh out of college, starting this company. What advice do you have for, you know, following your dreams and starting something, especially at a young age? There is no resume requirement for starting a business. You don't need to have had the perfect career. Me and Sophia are non-technical founders. We built a fashion app and we barely know how to code, right?

32:50Like we can do from some front end stuff. We learn very quickly. Coding is not, you know, the thing that we excel at. And so there is no like perfect background you need to have. You don't need to have perfect experiences to start a business. If you clearly have an experience where you see a pain point and you want to create something you think is going to solve something, then you should just do it. And I think you need to allow yourself to go and do it. And I think that that's something that, frankly, we really struggle with as women. First of all, the industry is against us. We know that only 2 % of venture capital funding goes to female-founded businesses, which to me is a huge, huge downfall of our society.

33:22But also, it's a huge market opportunity. Think about that. If 2 % of the capital is just going to female-founded businesses, do you know how many things in the female life that we can improve? How many things that I know that all my girlfriends struggle with that I'm like, wow, someone should build a smart tampon. Someone really should, not us because we're not scientists. We're not mechanical engineers, but someone should build that. And so I think that there's so much opportunity in this space. And I think allowing yourself, whether it's a business or not, to go forward and create something, even if you don't have the perfect background is a huge thing.

33:55I really love that you both found something that was a pain point for both of you and just went after it and solved it. I think for me, those are always the most incredible businesses and the ones where I also fall in love with their founders too. I'm like, oh, they genuinely had this thing and had the initiative to go fix it. And I loved hearing about it. To be honest, it's so perplexing to me that so many of the other fashion tech companies, honestly, Hot Take, are all founded by men who very clearly do not understand. Or are creative directed by men. Yeah. And I think that's just so crazy because it's like most consumer spending is coming from women.

34:28And I go and I look at these apps and I'm like, dude, like you clearly don't understand what the girlies want. And I think that that's something that's been so wonderful for us is just really rallying around. We want to build the tool for the fashion girly, like the girl who wants to shop smarter. She wants to be like a genius. How can we do that for her? And we're just so excited. There's so much more to do. Like shopping is a wide open category. There's so much innovation to be had. And so this hopefully is just the beginning. Well, I can't wait to see what you guys do. But FIA is now available on the App Store.

35:02And when you download the app, you also have to approve it to install into your Safari, right? Exactly. So what you're going to do is you're going to go to the App Store, you're going to install FIA. We're going to show you what we do, how the price comparison works. You're going to click a button that'll take you to Safari, and you're going to toggle us on and allow us to appear on every shopping website. That's a really key thing is not just some websites, but to say for every shopping website, so we can give you the insight wherever you're at. And it's just a three-step process. And that's how you're going to enable Fia.

35:28I can't wait. You guys are going to enable my shopping addiction. That's really what's happening. Well, let us know how it goes. You need to give us the honest feedback too. I will. Of course. We need your expertise. I definitely, I'll be all up in there this week. I just did it last night. And then you guys also have the burnouts. It comes out every Tuesday. If you guys listening want to hear more about their entrepreneurial journey, highly recommend going and listening. Just listening to the two of you go back and forth is honestly so much fun. I really loved watching it on YouTube. So go check that out too.

35:53We're going to have some fun argument episodes coming up soon. Thank you guys so much for coming on. It was so much fun. I'm so excited for the both of you. I've been listening to this for a while, so it's an honor to come on. Oh, thank you. That's so sweet. Thanks, guys.

36:23Thank you.