Wishbone Kitchen’s Meredith Hayden on Her New Book, Cooking in Style, and Being a Chef in the Digital Age

0:01Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Let's Get Dressed. It's your host, Liv Perez. I hope you're all having an amazing start to your week. I am leaving on my big trip to Japan tomorrow. It's my first time. I'm going with Alex for a few days and I'm so excited. Make sure that you're following me on Instagram, TikTok, all the things. Of course, I'm going to be sharing so many fun moments from the trip. And then follow me on Substack too, because I'm going to be sharing whatever we loved the most on there at the end of the trip. I cannot wait. And I've said this before, but if you guys have recs, please send them my way.

0:36I'm just so excited to explore Japan for my first time. But before I leave, I have to give you guys the ultimate parting gift. And that is today's episode. If there is anyone who we all know has impeccable taste, both on and off the table, it's Meredith Haven. Today, I'm joined by the chef, content creator, and newly published author behind Wishbone Kitchen to talk about her very much anticipated cookbook, which raise your hand if you literally pre-ordered it last year, because that is me. We also talk about how personal style influences her cooking and her go-tos in the kitchen, closet, and beyond.

1:12She also shares her thoughts on the state of food media, what it means to be an influencer in 2025, and of course, Martha Stewart. I hope you guys love today's episode. Let's go get dressed with Meredith Hayden. Welcome. We're here. Welcome. We're here. You came a far way to come on this podcast today. Such a long journey. I'm so brave. Such a long journey. Walked all the way here from a few blocks away. There you go. I'm so happy to have you on the pod. I'm so happy to be here. Truly. Long time coming. A very long time coming. And I knew when the book was coming out, I was like, yep. Gotta do it.

1:45It's our time. Totally. Do you remember the last time we saw each other? Was it the Tory Burch show? It was, but it was a very specific moment. When you were matching Martha? I had a really, yes, but I had a very, that was such a conflicting moment for me because it was like you were standing next to me and then Martha Stewart walks in the room and I was like something's happening I feel like I'm in I'm in the presence of like culinary royalty and I don't know where to look and if somebody asked me if this was like my Avengers I'd say yes if someone asked me to choose I'd rather like jump off the cliff no it was crazy I was fully oblivious that she was even standing right there you it's so funny you were because I I really like like introducing people and I really like like putting people together it's actually one of the reasons why I started the pod oh my god I love that in that moment I was like wait Meredith standing behind me I was like have they met I should have assumed obviously you guys have met but I was like wait like I should grab her like wait what and then the moment flew by so fast and it's one of those things that keeps me up at night well she was like clean love the dress was it a dress or was it the jacket it was a jacket and she wore it as a jacket I wore it as a dress yes and I said to her, I was like, Martha, I would take this off, but I'm naked underneath.

3:01And she was like, she like kind of winked at me. And I was like, oh my God, this is our moment. No, that was iconic. I know. I really wish I took a picture. I am not a picture. I have a picture. What? I have a picture. I mean, you have like a video from afar. It's like you're standing there going like this and she's like in the background on that separate repeat. And you're like, no, stop. I'm double thumbsing up. That is could be projecting because that's something I would do. That's something I Okay. In every picture. I'll have to pull it up after. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll have to pull it up. Fantastic.

3:31Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. Well, I'm glad to see you back here. Tell us what you wore to pod today. We always answer. We always open up with that. Okay. I wanted to go a little comfy and cute. We've got Levi's 50190s on the bottom. The best jeans. The perfect, most iconic. Yeah. Jeans of all time. I don't have the liberty of the patience to scour thrift stores and eBay for the perfect pair of upcycled denim. So this is my cheat code for that. Yeah, of course. And then this is like a little sweater jacket from Favorite Daughter. Love. And then some little loafers. And these Mimi loafers are seeing the street for the first time ever.

4:08They're seeing the streets for the first time. I'm out and walking and they're just so happy to, this is probably like the last few weeks I can wear them before it gets too hot. But I'm a believer in loafers in the summer. Even these like dark chocolate brown. Yeah. I am like very passionate about not paying attention to seasonal. But you live in California, so you can do that. True. Yes. But even then, like being here, if it's 80 degrees or whatever, like I'm still wearing a burgundy, I'm still wearing a brown. Okay. Then you're giving me permission to wear these in the summer. I would wear them with like a cute linen short and a t-shirt.

4:40Perfect. Yeah. That's where I'm at these days. Seriously. You wear so many hats. Every day when I'm following you on Instagram, I'm like, how do you do all the things that you do in a day? I don't know. Dog mom, most importantly. dog mom we love our dog moms there we go chef content creator what are you putting on every day to like tackle all the things oh I feel like I gravitate to a lot towards a lot of denim because it's one of the few things that gets better with washing like the main point of consideration that I have when buying something that I want to wear on a daily basis is like is this going to survive multiple rounds in the washing machine because I'm always staining my clothes when I'm cooking.

5:20The dog's always like throwing up and doing insane things. Well, you have a puppy still. I'm still considered a puppy. She's a puppy. She's six or seven months old. But yeah, a lot of denim and a lot of like cotton t-shirts, whether it's a plain white tee or I love like a heavyweight cotton long sleeve, whether it's striped or printed. But that's like my uniform most days. Even when I was a chef, I didn't wear like a formal chef coat or chef pants because I was like, okay, it's not that serious. So yeah, jeans and a t-shirt has been my uniform. And then in the winter, obviously throw a sweater on, but 90 % of the time that's what I'll be wearing.

6:04I always wonder if you've had like one of those Charlotte York moments where she's in the kitchen in that gorgeous Prada skirt and her daughter comes up behind her and puts the paint on her. I wonder if like anything's ever been totally lost to the cooking. You know, dribbling things on suede is a nightmare, a nightmare, but it happens often. I mean, yeah, that's happened several times. I like can't even remember a specific example, but I usually what I'll do is I'll throw on like a big baggy t-shirt if I'm hosting people for a dinner party or something like on New Year's Eve. I did this. I, by the way, your New Year's Eve outfit was so cute.

6:40Thank you. It's ingrained in my brain. sort of situation. The red tights, little hot pant. Yeah, I remember it. Me and my four best friends and their boyfriends in my house. And we were going to go cute and comfy and like just do jeans or whatever. And I was like, can we actually like dress up? I'm like kind of bored. And so I got everyone on board to dress up for no reason. All the guys were like, what are you guys wearing? Anyways, it was time for me to cook the steak and I didn't want my outfit to get all like gross and smell like meat. So I just throw on a huge baggy oversized cotton t-shirt.

7:10There you go. And it's my like protective layer. That's genius. Yeah. Because an apron, there's too much that's still exposed. Yeah. But with a baggy t-shirt, you can cover almost your whole outfit. Where are you getting a lot of your good tees? Oh my God. I mean, most of them are like old t-shirts from Nantucket and like beach vacations when I was a kid. I love a souvenir tee. Yeah. Like the one I wore on New Year's, I think was my Justin Bieber Purpose Tour t-shirt from 2018. But yeah, I love a souvenir tee. Me too. I really, I'm waiting for that era to come back where we were in like the souvenir tee, band tee era and they were all vintage.

7:50There's literally a store in LA that just sells iconic vintage tees. And I feel like there was a point in time where people were there like every weekend. I love eBay as well. Like I recently got a really cute Hooters shirt from eBay. It's really cool. I'm obsessed with you. What compelled you to buy a Hooters shirt? I literally just searched Hooters shirt and then I found one where like this guy was wearing a scuba mask and yeah, it was like a beachy Hooters shirt. Perfect. Like, okay, perfect. Keep it on brand. Yeah. Yeah. I actually feel like one comment I see on your Instagram often, not to sound like the ultimate creep, is that you have epic jewelry on all the time.

8:30Wait, I wear the same stuff every day. Well, your summer jewelry is really on point. Like, you've always got like a great kind of necklace situation on. Where are you getting a lot of those? So there are these two necklaces that I used to wear every single day. I'm currently not wearing them because they're tangled and I like can't take the time. Someone needs to invent the necklace detangler. Yeah. My best friend and I, when we were younger, thought about doing it. And then I remember there was a company that came out with like this little contraption that sits in the back of your neck and just.

9:00Yes. I keep telling myself I want to get that. Yeah. But I, again, can't take the time to find it. No, but I want something more seamless. Yes. It feels a bit. Yeah. I also feel like it would be heavy. Heavy in the back. Yeah. I don't know. But it's like a dainty, thin gold chain with a single diamond in the center. I think it's from Zoe Love. And I bought it for myself like four years ago. And then I also have a similar necklace from them that has a wishbone on it. Cute. And so those were my go-to jewels. And then I've been wearing these like little silver hoops that I got in like a PR mailer from Madewell.

9:35Oh, no way. Those are great. Yeah. They're just like, throw them on. Don't think about it. Yeah. But usually in the summer, I definitely gravitate to like a dangly or a pearl dangly situation. Yeah. I mean, I think about that picture. There's a picture of you with spaghetti vangole and you're wearing like an epic. The clam shirt. Yeah. The clam shirt for one is like, you can never get rid of that. I know. That needs to be passed down for generations. But like, I think you were also wearing like an incredible pearl necklace. Yes. That was J.Crew. I love that you just said that because J.Crew jewelry does not get the hype it deserves.

10:10No, I love it. It was like one of their big chunky pearl statement. And I got it for a trip to the Bahamas and I wore it with like all of my beach looks. And I was like obsessed with it. I did not wear it enough last summer. I can't wait to bust it out. During the Jenna Lyons J.Crew era, J.Crew jewelry was like my constant gift for everyone. It was the top of my wish list. I remember it was like very bobbly, but it was like, this was also like Gossip Girl era. We're like wearing like a little like like peplum skirt, like top with like the big. Or remember the necklaces that looked like Peter Pan collars?

10:45Obviously. And then they tied in the back. Yeah. So good. I had so many of those. So good. Maybe we should bring those back. We could. We could. I mean, maybe not the Peter Pan, but like I did love how fun it was. Yeah. It was jewelry that made it seem like it was part of the shirt. Yes. Right. Yes. Yeah. Miss those. I know. My one thing is I can't do a heavy necklace. So I don't know if I can go back to the bobble, bobble necklaces. It's just uncomfortable for you. Oh my God. Like that's kind of my problem with clothes and getting dressed in general is if something's uncomfortable and I'm going to feel it, whether it's like digging into my neck or digging into my side, I'm going to be in a bad mood for like the rest of the day.

11:23Yeah. I mean, I would totally understand how for a chef comfort is key. Like you have to be in that all day, every day. I know. Yeah. It sucks. I'm curious for you how your personal style kind of spills over into the way that you cook, whether it's like how you set a table or, you know, how even you're just cooking for your everyday life at home. That's so funny. And I've tried to use this analogy in the past with other things, and I'm not sure other people have really understood what I'm talking about. So I'm curious if you'll feel what I'm saying. Since my sense of style and what I wear a lot is like jeans and a white tee, I recognize that pattern with a lot of other things I do where I start with a really simple base.

12:03And then I like to have fun with the accessories. So when I'm cooking, I'll start with something that's really simple, whether it's a roast chicken or a pasta. And then like to the blind eye, it looks really simple, but then there are all these like fun little secrets in the recipe that kind of make it a bit more me. And I've had that sort of approach with interior design since I've been furnishing the barn. I've noticed like, I do love loud prints and loud colors. But when it comes to the bones of the house and the bones of the furniture, I really do gravitate towards simple textures and simple colors and then go crazy with the pillows and other sort of accessories.

12:46I would love to know what your go-to apron is. I feel like you have some cute chic ones. Oh, oh my gosh. Well, La Double J makes some really fun, like loud prints that I like to do if I'm feeling sassy. But my go-to are usually just like the plain ones from Williams-Sonoma. They have just like the plain striped ones. You love a stripe. I know. And I love that for you. I know. I really do. And I think it's because I usually am wearing like jeans and a white t-shirt. So I like to incorporate a pattern that's a bit subtle because especially if I'm like not wearing makeup and I haven't like brushed my hair, I can't pop on a double J.

13:23Yeah, you really have to dress up for the moment. I know. So my more casual aprons are usually the Williams-Sonoma ones. So you've hosted some pretty incredible dinners and let's dress a table the same way that maybe we would like dress a look. Like, okay. Yeah. Tell me what's going down on the table. Like what is your blue jean of a table? What's your like tennis necklace of a table? Okay. Fun. I think if it's like a gorgeous wood table, I would go bare table, no tablecloth, But if we're going tablecloth, white linen. And then chargers, I really like doing a natural fiber charger. So whether it's rattan or some sort of like woven situation with like a little bit of texture.

14:09I always do white plates unless I'm like going funky crazy. But a white plate, dinner plate, salad plate, and then the napkin on top. I like to do a pop of color with a napkin, whether it be a fun napkin ring or a printed napkin or on my cover. I did plain pink linen napkins with a napkin ring and I stuffed dahlias into the napkin rings. So cute. It was like a very last minute sort of call because we had all these dahlias on the table and in a vase, but they were covering the food. But we still wanted the pop of color from the flowers, but we didn't want the height. so I like ripped them out of the vase and shoved them into the napkin rings and it ended up being like one of my favorite parts of the cover it gives such a nice like pop of color so I think maybe flowers would be my tennis necklace for a tablescape because it always just adds like so much life to a table yeah yeah I also love that you like had that last minute moment I find sometimes when I'm hosting it's like those little last minute things that bring in totally the personal touch to it.

15:19Like you have an idea of what you want it to look like. But like I remember last time I hosted, I was like, I need a color. And I went on my street and like pulled a few flowers from the neighborhood and was like, yeah, that's going to work. I know. And the best part about sticking with like natural fibers and white linens for the base is that you can whatever you find outside or whatever you find at the grocery store, whether it's some really beautiful citrus that you want to put in the middle of the table, it will all sort of go because you're not working with anything that's fighting the food.

15:48And I always love making such colorful food anyway, that I want that to be the color. Yeah. You want that to be the literal centerpiece. Yes. A hundred percent. I'm a tableware hoarder. Same. Like I don't need a big house in my life, but I need a kitchen with a lot of cabinets for my tableware. I just like, I collect it as I go. There's this one brand out of Austria that I'm obsessed with. Oh my God, what is it? Grimunder. I need to look it up. Yeah. I actually found it when Alex and I got engaged, the hotel we stayed at had these, like they're all of their plates for the restaurant were these like alpine white plates with like alpine flowers on them and then a hunter green rim.

16:27Gorgeous. And I bought the whole thing to like remind me of my engagement corny, but it was so cute and I use them every day. Oh, I love that. But where are you shopping for all of them? Because I feel like every time I see your tables, I'm like, oh my God. I feel like I also get inspiration from restaurants. Yeah. My wine glasses are inspired by a restaurant where I was like, these wine glasses are amazing. So I looked them up and ordered them. But one of my current faves right now is Rebecca Udall. I don't know how to pronounce it, but they're in the UK and they have the most darling tableware.

16:59They call the plates crockery. Love. It's like so, so chic. Yep. But it's never in stock. I literally finally just was able to order the plate set that I've been wanting for six months. And it's just like white with a little cute sort of ruffle detail. Cute. I love it. Like a ruffled doily plate. Yeah. Like super sweet. Love saber, sabre, however you pronounce that for flower. Those are where my forks are from. I love them. Yeah. Yeah. What else? Juliska, which is like kind of like a classic. She's so classic. So classic. Everyone loves a Juliska on their wedding registry. They're everywhere. I got the Puro set and I just love it.

17:41I wonder how fashion inspires food for you because I know your first job was with Joseph Altazara. Yeah. Legend. We absolutely love Altazara. Love. Under this podcast roof. So I wonder if there was ever a time where just being in that environment inspired how you cook. Well, it's so funny. When I started working for them, I was still working at Condé Nast and I had no idea that Joseph was in fashion. And it wasn't until I was, no, I know. I like, I'm very respectful of people's privacy to a fault where I'm like, I'm not Googling you. I'm not going to stalk you. I'm just working here. And I show up, I do my job and then I go home.

18:19I don't need to like find out everything about you guys. I remember one day at work, they were like, we're not going to be in town next week because we're heading off to Paris for Joseph's show, but we'll text you when we're back. And at the time I was prepping my boss for Paris fashion week. So I was like, wait, why would Joseph has a show, have a show, have a show in Paris next week? Oh my God. And then I like went home and Googled that night. And then in the next morning I told all my friends at work and they're like, you're so dumb. You should like a vault, like you should have known that.

18:49And I was like, okay, well, whatever. But I don't know if, I feel like I've always really loved plating food and having fun with making it beautiful on the plate. When I was little, I used to tell my mom, I don't want to be a chef. I don't want to work in a restaurant. I just want to be the one who makes the food look pretty, which is so funny. I think that's so cute. I just have so much fun like playing with it. So I don't know if it's really a direct correlation to fashion in terms of just like, I like working with my hands and I like creating things. And I've always just enjoyed that part of food and fashion, being able to see something come to life in that way.

19:29But yeah, that's a little funny tidbit about working for Joseph. I mean, iconic in my mind. I actually think the first time we didn't meet, but I remember seeing you at his show a few years ago and I had followed you too. And I was like, wait, I was like, this is, I was trying to be like, do detective work and figured it out and was like, wow, that's pretty epic. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's literally the nicest person I've ever met in my life. That tracks. Yeah. He seems it. And the fact that at the end of every show he brings his daughters out. Oh my God. It just melts my heart. Yeah. Like I, it's just one of those things I look forward to every season.

20:03Well, I mean, I might be speaking out of turn or embellishing. I can't really remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure the first time it happened, it wasn't planned. Oh yeah. She just ran up out of her seat. She just ran out. Yeah. She was super young. She was super young. She was like four, right? Two or maybe four. I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't planned. And now it's become sort of a tradition, which is so funny because the first time it happened, it was a bit of like a panic, but it was adorable. And yeah, no, that's, it's so cute that they do that now. Again, the best things happen in those spontaneous moments.

20:36It's so sweet. Yeah. What do you think about fashion's kind of like weird obsession with food right now? I feel like we have like buttercore. There was like strawberry makeup last summer, the tomato laueve bags, which I know you loved because you're a big tomato person. Like, what do you think about all of that? I feel like it's really a sign of the times in terms of people's like exhaustion with things feeling artificial. I don't know. I like, I think that there's a correlation between these organic textures and inspiration from things that organically exist in nature and bringing those into fashion.

21:09You know what I mean? Like it feels a bit more grounded. Yes. I think about like what trended last year, like cottagecore, like coastal grandma, like all these things that feel really like relatable almost and grounded that it makes sense that food has become the thing. Where it's so tangible. I really don't know how to articulate my thoughts with this phenomenon because you're not the first person to ask me this, but I don't know. I think it's amazing. I love it. I've always seen parallels between food and fashion because they're two mediums that are so visual. So it's kind of like the pendulum's always swinging.

21:50This isn't the first time. It's not going to be the last, but it's so fun to see brands like Loewe celebrate things like tomatoes. I mean, that was epic. I loved it. Yeah. And then they had like the heels with the splattered egg. And they had the massive tomato at a show recently. I also think like I think about what I have been consuming a lot of in the past year. And like, it's a lot like I love your content. Like I love Nara Smith's content. Like I think food has really taken this like front and center moment that feels fresh and different. Well, it's funny you say that because food has always been front and center to me.

22:25Right. And so it's so funny to hear other people in other industries say that because I am like, wait, it's been like this the whole time. Yeah, you're like, I've been here. I'm confused. But it's so true. I mean, food is now making its way into mainstream pop culture in a way that it really wasn't. Yeah. A few years ago, even people like Martha Stewart are being celebrated in a way that I don't feel like she was celebrated during her prime. I agree. So yeah, it's just really exciting to see because I'm like, hello. Oh, is there a chef you love to follow? I wonder like who's on your radar right now?

22:58Yes. I have a long list. I'm trying to think of like, I mean, I love a Stanley Tucci moment. Like I love a non-chef chef who just like is filled with personality and doesn't follow rules and just kind of like cooks from their soul and in a very like whimsical kind of way. He's so passionate about it. I know. And it cracks me up because like sometimes I get really passionate about certain dishes or certain foods and I'm like, oh my God, it's not that serious. But then when I see him talk about food, I'm like, well, maybe it is serious. No, it's very serious. Yeah. And for you too. But yeah, I love seeing how, and then there's that guy who makes fun of him, Matt Friend, I think.

23:36Oh, my favorite. That stuff kills me. Too good. And now I can't watch Stanley Tucci without thinking about him. No, I know. I'm like, this would make a perfect spoof. Perfect. He's like a walking embodiment. He's like a caricature of himself. That guy eats so much pasta. I know. I'm pretty jealous. I know. It's a pasta for lunch every day. Did you read his memoir? No. He has like his, he has like strong familial ties to Italy. And he like document or he recounts this time where he lived in Italy with his parents when he was growing up. And I'm like, just so jealous. Yeah, I think for me, that's what draws me to food or is that familial history that can tell a story through food.

24:16Like, did you see the new Anthony Porowski show on National Geographic? I think he basically takes different celebrities every episode and has done a lot of prep work in the beginning to kind of trace their ancestry through food and then takes them to the place of their family history and eats food. I need to check that out. Incredible conversation around food and their family and culture. Florence Pugh is on it. Oh, so fun. Yeah, she's a great non-chef chef to follow. Also a great non-chef chef to follow. She's hilarious. Yeah, it's fun. While we're talking about East Coast Summer, I have to share with you guys the number one place that I've been shopping for all things summer wardrobe and honestly makes the best pieces.

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25:33There's a beautiful stitching on it too. And it's casual enough to go from the farmer's market to dinner on vacation. And then of course, I love the Chloe crew neck. This is my beach sweater. It's a striped crew neck that comes in a lot of different colorways. I have it in navy and white and then also white and black. And it's one of those pieces that I just wear time and time and time again and cannot wait to bring out when summer comes around. You guys can find your new spring and summer uniform at Jenny Kane. Our listeners get 15 % off your first order when you use the code LIV, L-I-V, at checkout.

26:04That's 15 % off your first order at J-E-N-N-I-K-A-Y-N-E.com using the promo code LIV. Let getting dressed be one less thing to worry about. Let's talk about your cookbook. Okay. I'm so excited for you. Thank you. And I've gotten a sneak preview of it. To me, it feels like an ode to East Coast Summer, which if you've lived on the East Coast, is something that feels really tangible. Like it's something that I actively crave and think of. And so I love that you've like distilled it down into this book. Thank you. What did you want to accomplish with your first cookbook? Well, I feel like it's funny, similar to the food comment, East Coast Summer is all I know.

26:44And I didn't really realize how different it was from or how identifiable it was. But I'm really glad that you picked up on that. A lot of the inspiration from the book came from family recipes and just like family stories. There was a part of me when I first started writing the book where I was really preoccupied with like what would impress other chefs, what would impress other people in the food industry. This is my debut cookbook. I really want people to take me seriously. and I started trying to come up with all these fancy recipes that are like complicated and use niche ingredients to kind of like prove like I know what I'm doing.

27:21I know my stuff. But time and time again, I just kept going back to these simple dishes that I actually make for myself at home. And that's where I landed with the tone of the book was simple home cooking that is just naturally inspired by my life. I feel like some chefs, they take their food direction so far away from what they grew up with, like kind of in spite and whether that's because they grew up with food from cans and like they're kind of rejecting that sort of mindset, which I think is totally valid. But I was lucky enough to have a mom who loved to cook growing up and was just very much like a Rachel Ray Martha Stewart mom.

28:06So she was really my muse for this whole book. And that and then also just produce is always something that I go back to when I think about seasonality and what I want to make the front and center of a dish. I think it's really fun to play with vegetables that way. I love that. That just like sparks a lot of inspiration for me because I think when I think of produce, I think of just so much color. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I also really related to what you just said about, you know, going off and doing this kind of big thing that feels like your debut and wanting to impress the other people in your field.

28:42I think it's really hard to be a creative on Instagram these days. Oh my God. You are just inundated constantly by other things and the idea of what you could or should be. I think also in a male dominated space like food, I struggled early on to sort of lean into myself while still being taken seriously at work. And, you know, going into a restaurant working as a line cook, but then also wearing earrings and wearing makeup and wearing lip gloss and wanting to talk about Bravo and Kardashians was sort of my first battle at not losing myself in a space that doesn't typically favor femininity. And again, while I was first posting on Instagram, first posting on TikTok, I hid myself a lot for that reason.

29:36I worked with this private chef agency that told me, oh, we see you working really well for bachelorette parties. You know, we have some really high profile clientele that might not be a good fit for you. So we think you should stick to, you know, doing these lunches and bachelorette parties, which to be fair, is true to some sense. Like I am so much fun at a bachelorette party. I would imagine. Like hire me for your next party. But I just, there was always that like unspoken, you're too much to be taken super seriously in this field. And instead of resenting that, I just found a way to make that a strength rather than a weakness.

30:18And that was through social media. And now I have an army of girlies who think and feel and are passionate about the same things that I am. So I'm glad that I was able to like get over that eventually. But there's always going to be in the back of my mind someone saying like, oh, she's just an influencer. But at the end of the day, that's them projecting. It's nothing to do with me. So just got to keep your head down. It is really tough. I will say like even from personal experience to if you if you do something online, doesn't matter if you're really good at it or excel in the field. People will still say she's just an influencer.

30:57Yeah. As if that's a negative. I'm like, you guys. I always like come back with that and be like, of course, the female led industry is the we're just influencers. I honestly am like the more people who I'm going to let people think that way. I'm not going to, you know, waste my breath trying to convince people otherwise. But it is such an amazing industry and jokes on them. Jokes on them. How did you get over that? I feel like there's a lot of people that feel that way. It's like I have this personality or this thing and like it's just going to be too much. I shouldn't do it. So I had filmed my first viral video October 2021 and it was a vlog of me out in the Hamptons catering for this really fancy family and this amazing compound in the Hamptons.

31:47And I documented the whole weekend. I filmed it and I never posted it because I was like, oh my God, who cares? This is like the stupidest thing ever. I'm not going to post this. So I kept posting just recipe videos. That was kind of like what I was originally posting on social media for the first year. And then I had seen a piece of advice. I have no idea who said it, but it really stuck with me. And it was like, if you're feeling like you're in a rut with content, just think about what content do you like to consume? and then go for that. Instead of keeping these like barriers on what you think you should be posting, think about what you want to be watching and then see how you can kind of make that your own.

32:24And I found myself watching a lot of vlog content. And so I was like, okay, well, I have a vlog that I filmed and edited that I've never posted. So I guess I'll just post it and see what happens. And I posted that in March, 2022. And that was my first viral video. I really like the follow what you like to watch yourself. Like, I think that's a great kind of rule of thumb if you're feeling lost and don't really know where to start. Because I think there's sometimes we get too rigid with what we think we should post, whether it's, oh, Alex Earl was really successful with her Get Ready With Me videos.

32:55So I should be posting Get Ready With Me videos. Right. Right. Or I was looking at a lot of other food creators who are getting a lot of success on TikTok and they were posting these super high def, super like sort of really well lit, like really high produced food videos that are using these super fancy cameras. They're zooming in, they're getting all of these like, and I tried to do that, but then I thought, you know, there's always going to be someone with a nicer camera. There's always going to be someone with like a more eye grabbing recipe. I can't depend on food video trends to continue my relevance.

33:31I really need to find what makes me special. And it just turned out to be me myself was kind of what made my account stand out from everyone else. Like imagine if I was still only just posting food and like never showed my face or talk to camera. When I do podcast videos with people or like interviews with people who are on Instagram, I go back to the beginning. And yeah, you were very much just posting plates. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember seeing the first day in the life you did and there were like thousands of comments on it. And I was like, yeah, there's, there's a very strong desire online to just get to know people in a deeper way.

34:08In a human way. It doesn't have to be so manufactured. Yeah. I think people really do gravitate towards that kind of humanity, especially now where people are really sensitive to like things feeling manufactured and things feeling too. Incredibly. Yeah. And I think you've done a great job of connecting with your audience in different ways. I wonder for you, you know, having your sub stack, you have your YouTube channel, you have dinner with friends, which we all love. What is it like being in the food space right now? Like it's so different than it was when we were growing up, like in the Martha world, digital has changed everything.

34:46So what is that like for you now? Yeah. I mean, I think like the media space is in a really weird place right now where everything to produce on a professional level is so expensive. And so all of these production houses, whether it's producing shows or movies, are so reluctant to take chances and are kind of stuck in this formula of food competition shows. They know it works. so we're just going to keep doing that and repackage that a million different ways and like who cares if anyone's actually learning who cares if it's even a good show as long as it's getting viewers and we're generating ad revenue so that's kind of made me really jaded towards pursuing a real cooking show on television because I don't like any food shows right now yeah it's not that I don't like any there's definitely like exceptions but just overall I don't love what these shows are prioritizing and that's views and clicks and like rage-baity sort of content and so what I love about being a digital creator is being able to make whatever I want and so long as people are interested that is all that matters and so that was kind of my mindset going into YouTube was I don't want to wait for a big company to give me a platform to have my own TV show or have my own cooking show.

36:06I'm just going to make it myself. And it's been so much fun. I like am so sad that my leg has taken me out of YouTube for the time being, but I'm just so excited to get back to it. It's really such a special place. I firmly believe that YouTube community is the most engaged and cares the most about the person that they're watching. Totally. They're so deeply involved. What do you think? Yeah. And I think like with TikTok, there's always that pressure of like, keep people interested, keep them engaged. They're going to keep swiping. You got to hold their attention. And so sometimes I feel like I can't even really get to the point in my videos before people swipe or I can't really spend time talking about something like technique driven.

36:52I have to be interesting, be entertaining, whatever. But with YouTube, I'm like, okay, the people who are watching this actually want to know those kinds of things. And so it's really empowering and also fulfilling to have a kind of platform to directly connect with people who care about the same things that I do. Yes. What is exciting you right now? Obviously, you have this cookbook coming out, but what's exciting you just in the digital space? I think every day, every week, we sort of see somebody who's considered an influencer or just a TikToker sort of surpass that title and sort of like break free from that category.

37:31So you have people like Addison Rae who are able to, you know, finally evolve and graduate from her TikTok days. And so I think it's really inspiring to see people appreciate those kinds of creators in a new way. And it gives me hope that like one day I won't just be an influencer. Not that I am, but I was going to say, girl, I don't think I this look at what's in my hands. I know. I know. I don't know. It's an incredible cookbook. It's just so fun to see people who started on TikTok as well flourish in their career. Yeah. And pursue passions that they've always had, like Charli D 'Amelio on Broadway.

38:09It's just like so incredible. It just makes me more excited for the future. I mean, I have to say, I feel like you really kind of shook the ground of the industry last year when you bought your house. I know. I was saying that the other day. I really do. I kind of feel like there was a weird shift in the way people viewed me when I announced that, which, I mean, whether or not that should have been necessary in order for people to take me seriously is another conversation. But I definitely noticed, like, people were like, oh, okay. And it's kind of a shame because it's kind of like people are like, oh, okay, like, you're actually making money on this thing.

38:46And I'm like, yeah. You're like, yeah. But again, jokes on them. it's hilarious that you picked up on that too because especially from people who aren't in the digital creator space they were kind of like oh like it was like it almost legitimized what I've been doing right as if the millions of views didn't already I know right I know but that's just the way this industry works unfortunately I think I'm really excited to see where it goes in the next 10 years yeah but I think right now like we are still stuck in that antiquated way of thinking where like Like in order for you to feel that validation or almost like legitimacy from specific peers, it took you showing, oh yeah, hey, like I bought a house in the Hamptons and I live there now.

39:29And like. But don't worry, I won't forget who was there before. Right. The house in the Hamptons. It's always going to be in the back of my mind. In this digital world, was writing a cookbook always the aspiration? Yeah. I wonder how that that balances for you. I've always wanted to write cookbooks. I just love them so much. I love having like a finished piece of work, which ties back to my love of just like creating things and seeing them come to life. And I've always collected cookbooks. And I knew that, again, with digital kind of taking over, getting a book deal is harder than ever these days because people don't want to take risks.

40:09They don't want to, you know, take someone who's new to the industry and take a risk on them. So I knew it was going to be a challenge, but I had so much fun writing it. I can't wait to write another one. I think that people are also sort of finding comfort in written physical copies of work, because nowadays, if you go on whatever blog or whatever sort of website, there's like ads popping up everywhere, including my website, like whatever. I'll be honest. We got to keep the lights on, guys. Exactly. But it's just such a quality experience to be able to sit down with a book and like not have a million things popping up on the screen and like your iMessage in the corner and your email dinging and to be able to just like have a moment of peace with something.

40:56I started my career in publishing and I've always loved magazines and I've always just like loved that about magazines is you can kind of really unplug and just like focus on what's right in front of view. So yeah, I am looking forward to a long career of cookbooks, hopefully. I love that. Yeah. How did the illustrations come together for you? Because it just, this feels like you jumping off the page. Yeah. And I want to know what that process was like. Okay. So I always knew I wanted the book to be beautiful. And especially knowing that a lot of my audience doesn't necessarily cook a ton. And I collect cookbooks and don't really cook from cookbooks a ton.

41:42So I wanted to make sure that it was a fun book to flip through and look at and experience, even if you had no intention of actually recreating the recipes. So I was scrolling on Instagram one day and I had this beautiful watercolor illustration on my explore page, went to this girl's profile, you know, went to her website. She sells gorgeous prints. And I reached out to her and I was like, would you be interested in doing the illustrations for my book? Wow. Later, we find out that she used to do the illustrations for Willie Pulitzer, which is hilarious because I worked there for four years. That tracks.

42:14Yeah. That tracks. And we just had so much fun making these. So the inside, I wanted to feel like it was sort of inspired by a vintage wallpaper. But then each chapter has its own little illustration. And so there are little Easter eggs like that's supposed to be Citarella. love and a little seafood bar. And there are lots of bunnies because we had bunnies visit us on set every day in the Hamptons. And I started to think of them as my good luck charm. So we were able to put a lot of personality into the book through those illustrations. How did you pick what you were going to wear on the cover?

42:52Oh, my God. Well, that was our third time shooting for the book. It It was supposed to be one photo shoot, 14 days, all of the photos done. Okay. We ended up doing a second shoot in the Hamptons. Thought we got the cover, which is the blue one on the inside. I thought that was going to be the cover. Love this. But I love your eyes here. I know. I know. And then there's another one that was supposed to be there. Anyways, I had no idea what I was going to wear until literally five minutes before. I had no idea what I was going to wear. I pulled a bunch of looks, but it really was something that came together in the final seconds.

43:26Like, I bought those napkins the day before, didn't know how to bring color into the—I didn't want to go overboard again with the color of my outfit because I really wanted the food to be the color. And I remember my editor was there, shout out Molly. She was, like, a little bit apprehensive of doing a beige seersucker against a beige wall because she was like, you might just, like, blend in. But I was like, I kind of want to blend in a little bit so that the food jumps off the page. And that was a dress that Veronica Beard had sent me. Super random. I had brought it not to wear for the cover, but to wear out to dinner.

44:04Yeah. And I ended up just loving the dress. And we tried on a million different dresses, shot a million different dresses, but that one just ended up being everyone's favorite. I also love It's a Perfect Summer Dress. I know. Like this is instantly going on all the mood boards. I know. Right? It's really cute. It's so good. So May 6th. May 6th. Available everywhere. Yes. So exciting. congratulations thank you to close out the show I want to do a little lightning round okay with you okay best restaurant in New York oh my god I'm so bad because I don't go to enough restaurants everyone's gonna get mad at me but I really do love the polo bar I'm sorry come on I have my birthday there I would have it it's the best restaurant for me in the world and I love it I can't even get in there but when I do love it love it so good I know it's like a schlep to get there.

44:53I waited on hold the other day for like 30 minutes. Yeah. Favorite dish in the world? Spaghetti and meatballs. You're a spaghetti and meatballs specifically? No. My mom's or mine. Love. Yeah. Favorite shoe right now? I'm still rocking the Adidas Gazelles. Love. I'm a Samba girl through and through. Samba Gazelles. I'm stuck in flats for the rest of the year, so my options are limited. Comfort is key. But yeah. Crucial. Yeah. Crucial. Most recent splurge in your closet? Oh my God. The Gucci trench. The Gucci trench. I can't. When you showed that, I was like, oh my God. Good for you, honestly. She's gorgeous.

45:27Have a glass of champagne and buy it. I know. I woke up with such scaries, but she's timeless. We love her. I think if you wake up with scaries, it means you did the right thing. Okay. It means you did the right thing. That's perfect. What's your go-to cocktail? I was just saying the other day, now that we're getting into summertime, normally I would say a martini, but I really love a watermelon vodka lemonade in the summer. Ooh. Bouvette. With like watermelon chunks in it or just juice? Just juice. Okay. So the restaurant Bouvette in the West Village, I used to live on top of it and they had these dangerous, amazing, no dangerous, dangerous, amazing watermelon vodka drinks.

46:03I have no idea what's in them, but I think it's just watermelon juice, vodka, lemon, and sugar. And then they put a nice hunk of watermelon on the side of the rim. Love. Just like eat it. Love. My favorite summer drink. Love, what is your go-to condiment? Probably hot sauce, but I also love, I'm like very passionate about condiments, obviously. Yeah. I can't pick one. Hot sauce, Dijon, sour cream. Sour cream. I love sour cream. I think it's sour cream. Favorite celebrity you've cooked for? Joseph. Duh. Duh. Love. Chef you want to cook with? That's hard. I'll say Stanley Tucci. That would be fun.

46:42It's fun. I would tune in. Fun. I would say Martha, but I would be too scared. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stanley. Stanley. Yeah. Yeah. Favorite recipe from your cookbook. I really love the short rib bolognese, which is more of a fall wintertime dish, but it's, I love a short rib pasta, but I also love bolognese, which has like the white wine and the sort of lighter taste. And I just combined the two. And it's also something that's like really easy to make for entertaining because you just throw it in the oven for three hours and then it comes out amazing. Yeah. So yeah, I love a hands-off dish like that.

47:19Love. Yeah. I hate asking this question because you just came out with a cookbook, but what's on the mood board for your career? Like restaurant? No. Show? What is it? Like what's the one thing? Don't quote me if I say no to the restaurant thing. Guys, don't quote her. No. I just want to keep doing what I'm doing right now, but even better, I feel like every time I get my footing, I get bronchitis or I break my leg. And I'm like, okay, wait, I like really am trying so hard to get into like a rhythm with this whole like career thing. The cat of nine lives. No, like something keeps happening that throws me off course.

47:54And I'm like really just trying to perfect what I'm doing right now, which is balancing writing book number two, hopefully, consistently posting on YouTube, consistently posting on my website and on Substack and sharing more recipes. Because again, like I just keep getting thrown off course with injuries and illnesses. It's okay. It's giving you a little resilience, you know? Totally. Like we're learning a lot of life lessons here. But I think in the grand scheme of things, I really don't picture anything drastically different from what I'm doing right now. I love that answer so much. Because everyone always, like, whenever people ask that, I'm like, I don't know.

48:34This. This. It makes me so happy to hear you say that. It doesn't need to be bigger than what you've already accomplished sometimes. Like, this is so much fun and reaches so many people and is a great job. And it's also like when I'm going up against people like Martha and Ina who had 20 years in the industry before they started writing books, I kind of feel like I'm playing catch up where I'm like, I need to take the time to continue to learn about food and then also take on new projects like learning how to garden and learning how to sew. Yeah. Because those are things I genuinely want to do.

49:06So those are kind of my priority now. I had the founder of The Real Real on the podcast yesterday and she started The Real Real at 52. Wow. So that's incredible. So much time, so much opportunity. It's a long game. Exactly. Yeah. Well, congratulations again on the book, guys. It's out on May 6th. Pre-order it on Amazon like I did. I'm so happy for you. And I'm so thrilled we finally got to do this. I know. Finally. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

49:35Thank you.