Deborah Meaden: Money shouldn't be the goal

23:48And then he shortened your name. At Debs. Yeah, that's right. He got the full fury. That was so good. That wasn't me. That was Peter. I didn't even hear him. Peter, he just called you Debs. Yeah, did he? And I was like, oh shit. Yeah, I think when I was coming over, I was talking to the taxi driver. I've been name dropping you all day. I'm not going to lie. And the text from the audience, you know, she's a boss, but she's very nice. And I think that's the reputation you have. Okay, I'll take that. And that clip was just like that. Do you tell me, so you know the cash they have out on the table?

24:16Is it real or is it just? Do you get asked this a lot? Is it just a layer of real notes? I'm sure you get asked it all the time. So it's been real once. And someone stole it. No, it was lovely. We were doing a trail for the show and they bought a load of cash in because it was around about loads of money time and we sort of walked towards the camera throwing a load of cash. That had to be real cash. And it turned up with a bodyguard. I was going to say. And I'm like, which one of us do you think they think is going to steal that money?

24:47So, well, it was once. Yeah, I think that's a hard note. Hey, as long as it was once, that's all that matters. I mean, it's a lot of cash in the logistics, like you say. I'd say you'd have like armed guards every episode if you did. Maybe the top note is real and then the rest is just stacks of fake money. Maybe. Maybe, who knows? Yeah, maybe.

25:08Last time we recorded, Tamein, you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes and yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much, yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp. It's a tech platform that makes self-assessment simple.

25:36Whether you're self-employed like me, a freelancer or a director like Demo, big dog. Instead of sending endless emails, bills and spreadsheets to your accountant, you just connect your bank, answer a few questions that are only relevant to you and your tax return can be ready in as little as 15 minutes. TaxApp is really easy to use and it's HMRC recognised software. So it's safe, secure and legit. The price is also decent. So if you're self-employed with one income stream, it's just£89 as a one-off fee. no big accountancy fees and we also have a discount code of course if you need to file a self-assessment this year give tax app a try we've left a link in the description and use the code money10 for 10 % off your first tax filing that code is money m-o-n-e-y one zero so mr carolet i hear you are a salesman elite salesman yes one of the best they say i've got a little bit of experience in the game yeah i could say i've done a few deals uh a bill a bill what what would your compliance team say about you they would say that i am always nagging them and that um essentially i just have i have beef with compliance i love the team compliance slows down all my deals because every time i get to the finish line they've got to check documents kyc uh gdpr and it's just a nightmare it slows the deal down by like two three weeks it's always on both sides as well as sometimes it can be blocked on the other side exactly well that's where today's sponsor can help.

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27:34That's vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. What I would like to know really is if someone listening to this, what makes a good business idea in your, in your mind? Well, um, it, there's gotta be a need for it. So I think somebody who identifies a problem that is a big enough problem. A lot of people come up with a problem that probably you're going to get once in a thousand years. That's not a business. So there are enough people experiencing that problem, understanding that market. Can you solve that problem in a way that you can sell it, whether it's a service or whether it's goods at a price that people will pay?

28:15Because again, if you come up with a solution of a problem, but it's so expensive, nobody's going to buy it, that's not a business. So, you know. Unless it's a 20 grand ice cream. Unless it's, and you're stupid enough to spend 20 ,000 pounds on ice cream. On ice cream. Can't believe you're even contemplating that. I just wanted the platinum and gold spoon. Yeah, but it might be horrible. You might not. Why don't you just go and get yourself a platinum and gold spoon made? Yeah, well. You can add it all to the rest of his gold. I'm a collector of gold. Oh, are you? Yes, I like a little bit of gold.

28:44It's a glinty gold. Yes. That's quite dragon-y, isn't it? Yeah, it is dragon-y. Yes, that is gold. Yeah. And then, you know, so do any businesses stick to your mind in the den that you've maybe invested in or went through that you were like, yes, that is it. Like that ticks all the boxes. So I was, yeah, yeah, several actually. But there's a business I was with this morning, funnily enough, called Fussy that set about, I mean, there was one line. Somebody asked me today, when did you know you're going to invest? They were good guys, two really good guys. it was it's a refillable deodorant product and they said the immortal we're on a mission to get single-use plastic out of the bathroom and at that point it was just like right bingo you've got you now need to lose me from a money perspective does being on the show cost you money then in a sense of the investment obviously you make money on the investments but it's quite a weird dynamic isn't it to get you on to a show that you essentially take a lot of risks to be on well it's funny isn't it?

29:42Because people go, well, whenever a business is successful, they go, well, the BBC should have that money. But of course, when I'm like, yeah. Who says the cheek of it? But on the other hand, I'm like, yeah, you don't want the losses though, do you? I like it. I can see that headline when a business fails. So yeah, I've forgotten the question. Well, it's just a lot of risk that you take from an outside perspective. So is that understood from the start? You're going to get an opportunity to invest in businesses. Yeah, and they are high risk. You know, they're higher, you know, they are at the risky end.

30:13That's what they are. But I think we're all there. You know, we all, we're not there to earn our money out of those investments. I know that sounds silly. No. But we don't need to do it. You know, it's not, you know, it's not going to, it's really not going to change our lives a lot. It's going to change the investee's life a lot. So to be a dragon, you've got to want to put the time in. You know, you've got to want to make a difference to businesses. it's not just about I'm going to put my money in I want a load of money back I've got a fantastic guy called well Martin and his wife came in with a product called Marksman and he said I've got Asperger's don't ask me any numbers because I haven't got a clue but I've got this little thing here and I think it's a little marking tool and I think everybody in the world should sell it obviously and now we've just signed a massive licensing deal in the US with a company and I get it isn't about of course it's about the money because that's the measure of success.

31:08But I just look at Martin now, I think your life. Yeah, you've changed his life. Your life's changed. You get to see your product out there, walk into all the DIY stores and there it is, there's a marksman, you know, that's a lovely man. I think the good thing is it gives people who are not in your world a chance just to get some experience from people who know. Whereas, you know, like VC and Angel investing in that, you could have the best product in the world, but if you don't know how to get in front of those people, it doesn't matter. It's going nowhere. Absolutely right. Whereas the show gives that.

31:33The one thing is, do you think that you invest in both your personal life and on the show? Does the show mean that you get a much better deal in terms of equity slice? I look for a better deal because I do think I bring more. You know, I'm not just putting my money in. Well, you can pick up a phone and people will answer. Yeah, absolutely right. So I will be honest. Yes, I do expect a better deal because people have got to think I've got a finite amount of time. So I've got to get a return for that time. You know, I've got to think this is well spent. Now, the return isn't always just cash. Sometimes it is just that lovely moment to think you have changed their lives.

32:09You know, I'm not saying that's because I'm such a lovely – I'm just – that's a reward. That's a lovely, brilliant moment. But I also don't – I don't want to be in business with grit under my eyes and grit under my partner's eyes. I want us to think we're probably both a little bit away from where we wanted to be. but equally not just because all that will happen you'll go out of the den and the deal will fall over you know if you push somebody too far then then they'll come out in out of the heat of the moment and think do you know what that's too much i don't want that i want to do a fair deal in the day and then you lose the chance to be involved i remember reading um you said you got the call from the dragon's den people and you thought do i want to do this because it might just change my life it has changed your life i can imagine that if you walk down the street people will will stop you they stopped me so they're definitely going to stop you do you regret the decision at all no not at all no i i've loved every minute of it and when i think about how hard i had to work to get some of the connections that i can make so easily yeah you know um it's amazing and you know it's business and i love i i love business i love i can't describe bit it feels like home you know i don't think there's another show that i could have done well there isn't you know i sit in that chair and it's it's home did you ever get any imposter syndrome if you know what i mean by that were you ever there like what the hell is going on you're not bothered i love that i love that you've always been happy no no no no you're fine i don't see you getting bothered yes but no i'm sitting around the kitchen table with you thinking what is going on tamane doesn't know what's going on either i do get those i get those moments sometimes And it's usually when I'm in the world of media, I'll be at the BAFTAs and think, I used to be a bingo caller.

33:58So I do get those, but not in my world I don't. When I'm doing what I do, not in my world I don't. Yeah. How do you see the social media business space? I mean, your Twitter's brilliant. It is. It's been punchy at times. The no BS business person. No, there's no bullshit, you're absolutely right. I saw someone the other day saying, why is it that Debra Meaden says the things that all business people should say? You know, you call out things that you see that it feels like others won't. I don't have shareholders. I don't have to worry about my image. You know, I don't. And anyway, I just find it hard not to.

34:38Fundamentally, I just find it hard not to. But you see Gary Lineker and he spoke out about certain things and he got into a bit of a flack. Yeah, but they undid that, didn't they? Yeah, they did. They did. They quickly realized, oh God. Yeah, they did. But you're in a similar position in a way. And I think what you say is spot on. And I think most people agree. You voice what the public is saying. It's nice to hear someone that's at the top say those things. But do you get pressure from - None at all. I've never been asked to tone it down. It's interesting considering that he got that. He has a lot more followers than me, baby.

35:09I don't know. I don't know. But I also don't forget, I don't work for the BBC. I do some work on the BBC. Yeah, whereas he's a payroll employee. Absolutely. it's a very different thing you know I've got a whole life outside of the BBC so uh and I certainly couldn't survive on the fee that they pay us well it's costing you money to be on that so how much sorry do you feel like you have to you can't say what you want to say all the time I think as you get bigger you have a duty to be more balanced yeah and that's I I'm I recognize that I don't know everything and that my view on the world is shaped by my own experience and that someone could be coming out from a different angle.

35:48And if I'd lived their life, I would think the way they did. So I try to be balanced. I try to not be, politics and money hit head on a lot of the time and you have to comment on it. For example, I can't ignore the economic impact of Brexit. I can't say that that has been good for the economy because the proof, it hasn't, it hasn't. It might be in the future, but right now it hasn't. But you say that and you instantly get called. You know, there's 50 % of the country that don't like you saying that essentially. Well, technically only 64. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What's my 60? And it's going like this.

36:20But you know, so you have to dip in there, but you can also end up just caveating away your own message and seem like you're too on the fence. So yeah. I think people are genuine, like people who are - You've got to have an opinion. You've got to take a side. But at the same time, it's also about recognizing that I don't know everything. I'm not as experienced as a lot of people out there. Well, and to be fair, I don't. And actually I like conversation on Twitter. I don't mind people coming back and saying, but what about? And I completely understand. People had their own reasons for voting Brexit.

36:49And I could so easily have also been sitting here thinking I'm wrong. You know, that was good. It could have been better managed. It could have been, absolutely. It could have come out well. But unfortunately, I was right. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, unfortunately, because, you know, it's not helpful. We've got some questions from the audience. We filtered them out. For the sensible ones. if we could just rattle them off that'd be great so people came in about esg or ethical investing you mean what do you think about it first of all i think you're quite passionate aren't you very passionate um in fact this morning i was talking to a big health organization about um supporting eco startups uh i am listen we have we have to be everybody has got to take this seriously.

37:37We've been battering the world for hundreds of years and it keeps standing up and going, oh, all right, I'll still feed you. I'll still give you clean water. And it's getting to the point where it's losing its battle against us. And we just need to help nature keep us alive. It's our support system. If you don't care about nature, if you just care about yourself, then just start looking after the planet because we can't survive without it. How do you feel about some, this is obviously a minority, hopefully, some businesses, they just pretend that they're doing all this. Greenwash. Yeah. I don't know what it's called, but yeah.

38:10And I used to work, when I was working in the city, there was so many companies just pretending. We did all the carbon credits, didn't you? Carbon credits, carbon emissions. And it was all just like, it was virtually signaling and pretending that they were doing something. And really, they just wanted more money and more clients. Do you find that happens often or nowadays it's less frequent? I think it did happen a lot. Sometimes intentional and sometimes not intentional. You know, they'll think, oh, we've got LED lights and we're recycling our plastic. So we're operating in a sustainable way, you know, which isn't really.

38:41So I think it happened. It still does happen a bit. It used to happen a lot. But I actually think with the new ESG regulations and the new regulations that the EU have brought in, if you want to trade with the EU, you've got to comply with their regs, is really pushing for a lot more transparency. So and that's coming from the finance houses. So, you know, investment is now pretty well regulated. What does sustainable mean? To use the word sustainable, you know, you've got to comply with A, B, C, D. And once it starts at the investment level, that pushes down through. Now it's corporates have to comply, you know, and in a minute it'll be SMEs, you know.

39:18Trickles down. Definitely getting, it's definitely getting better. But I always say to the consumer, if somebody says they're sustainable, ask why. Or if it's too hidden in their website, don't trust it. I should be able to do a couple of clicks and find what they mean by sustainable. If I have to look too hard, they don't mean it. Yeah. I sat down with Vanguard and had a conversation with them about ESG and put the idea of greenwashing to them and said, you know, you're just charging more for people that want to do good things. And they basically said, the pressure comes from the client. They want ethical funds, whatever that means, you know, because everyone has different ethics.

39:54But then we go to the businesses and say, if you want to be in this fund, you need to do this, this and this. And that's obviously good for your share prices if the 100 billion in assets is getting poured into these companies. Absolutely. So it does, like you say, trickle down from the top. Big difference, yeah. And if the pension funds, you know, so people like Aviva, I mean, Aviva, they're insurance companies. They're worried about climate because at some point we could all become uninsurable. They will have no business. Yeah. So they use their investments to move. So they haven't stopped investing in fossil fuel companies.

40:25companies they've said you've got to give us a plan to get out of fossil fuels you know show us a viable plan and as long as you stick with the plan we'll fund you the minute you stop we defund you right so so it's help it's not just because you can't just turn it off if you just turned off fossil fuels everybody would be furious yeah you know there'll be no flights nobody will be going on holiday you know just stuff wouldn't work so so you can't do that you've got to have a you've got to have a proper plan. So you've got to cut companies a bit of slack as long as they're moving forward, in my view.

40:58Do you really favor businesses that have this ESG or you said the single use plastic thing, you know, are you all over that then? So if someone's coming into the den, if they can have that angle to it, they might be a bit better. So it is quite funny. So everybody comes into the den now, you know, talks about the business. They look at me and they go, and it's sustainable. Okay. As I patting you on the head, there you go. Exactly. And I'm like, why? You know, and then I sort out the ones that have just got a couple of LED lights and recycled their plastic versus the ones who are fundamentally sustainable.

41:29Has anyone come on Dragons Den with an idea to replace water bottles? Because every time I buy a water bottle and I try and reuse it. It's called a tap mate. If you're on the go. Is bottled water not the biggest con that's ever happened in history? I drink tap water. I drink tap water. It's completely free. I mean, I'd be a big in town. But if you're going to like, I play basketball and I guess like an Evian bottle, I fill it up with the water from the tap and I go, but still you've got the plastic bottle. Sometimes you just can't help, but like you should have free sources of water maybe. I think they should.

41:55You know, you're stuck at a petrol station, you need a drink, you've got to get the plastic bottle. Exactly. The thing about plastic, plastic is actually a fantastic material. It's not plastic per se. It's the way we use it. Single use. It's the single use. It's the way we discard it. You know, actually it's going to be part of the solution because plastic, carrying around plastic water bottles in terms of the environment, other than the plastic, is much better. There's far less carbon involved than glass bottles or mining of aluminium. You know, glass isn't always the answer. But the trouble with plastic, it's in the environment forever.

42:29Or, you know, every bit of plastic that's ever made is still sitting in the environment. So to me, it's more about how we use plastic, recycle plastic, you know, and certainly don't use single-use plastic. One thing that kind of infuriates me is just how much plastic everything's wrapped in in a supermarket you know i mean i'm not asking you to fix the world here why is that the case why don't they change it well because um uh in some cases it prolongs the life of the fruit or the vegetable and you've got to think about the carbon footprint in produce and the water used in producing the goods so if they actually end up turning up rotten you know that's bad news too this is what i'm talking about plastic can be a good thing you know um listen i'm not advocating plastic my husband is fantastic he's he's banned from Sainsbury's in Taunton because he stood at the till unwrapped all of his good plastic stuff legend I know you can imagine there's a cube behind him going tutting away he's like I didn't ask for the plastic I just want the apples you know so yeah he is a legend so I definitely don't advocate plastic all I'm saying is that you know we are we are a bit aren't we we do this thing a plastic bad no not all plastic bad you know some plastic actually good.

43:41The next question from the audience, if you had 50K, what would you do with it? I mean, I'm sure you've got 50K, so. One day, one day. If I'm the wildest dream, what am I going to do with 50 ,000 pounds? Oh, what would I do with 50K? If you've never had 50K, what would you do? I think if you only had 50K. If I only had 50K. I thought it was more like if you got a lump sum of 50K. Yeah, but I mean. Like a tax rebate. But it's a very different proposition. I love that you're debating what my 50K is. Is it a lump sum? Well, We're going to give it to you. We're the ones providing it. Yeah, to you.

44:11Not that recorded. Excellent. I think we've got to put a bit of stakes because from an audience perspective, it'll be a very important 50K. One of the only 50Ks. Okay. So if I got a surprising 50K, what would I do with it? I would probably spend a bit because it would make me feel good, whether it would be take a bit of a holiday. and then the rest I'd probably split into four different investments. So I would spread my investment because I probably, if I've only just got my 50K, I'm probably not a sophisticated investor. So yeah, I would probably spread it across investments. When you say investments, not everyone's got access to the new Tangle Tees or whatever it is.

44:53So do you mean like actual companies or stocks and shares? Well, probably some stocks and shares. probably a pension you know people don't think about their pensions soon enough you might find you might want to do a bit on crowdfunding or something you might find something you really care about you love a product and you can make some quite small investments and make some you know you can lose your money but you can make some decent returns on that as well yes very similar to being a dragon on say like a crowd cube which is a you know early round investment you've got to wait until the IPO or you have it's got to be money you so this is a lump sum of 50 000 and I wasn't expecting.

45:31Yeah. So, which means that I can put it somewhere. You can have a little play with it. And it can stay there until it, you know, until it actually returns me some cash. Or if I lost it, it wouldn't break my, you know, wouldn't break my home. If someone's trying to assess a business in the way that you would in a Dragon's Den in a snapshot, what would you say the key numbers are that they should probably have in a rush? Oh, it's really simple. So turnover's good. Yeah. Gross profit's good. And net profit. And you want year over year to see if there's growth in that, I'd imagine. So you'd like to know last year's, this year's, the year before or something.

46:05Yeah. And sometimes, depending on the industry, I would know, for example, that if it's a tech industry, then probably what I would be looking for is good growth in turnover, probably flatlining profit, possibly losing money for quite a period of time because that's the industry it's in. another industry I would say well actually I would be expecting profits from you too you know so you've got to have a level of understanding of an industry that's what I was saying about if you're going to invest in something try and make it in something that you fundamentally understand you know not just investment in investment terms but you know how the how it works when people buy things is it a Christmas gift you know type thing we see that on the den don't you you you all say I've got experience in this field because of this so you've got a comparable that you can compare the numbers you know it should operate at this kind of margin and if it's not there's something wrong here exactly yeah yeah yeah and then sorry it was Nellie Sultan who asked the last question and then Ollie Turby said what motivates you and has that changed throughout your career so in the early days um it was definitely it was money because I didn't have money so obviously it was money um I I I like my version of success you know everybody should know what their version of success is.

47:19And it really shouldn't be cash. Partially cash is fine. But if somebody just says, because I'm a multimillionaire, then I feel quite sad for them really, you know, because success to me is creating the life that you want. You know, money helps you do that. But it is only the tool for doing that. So, you know, whatever my version of success is, achieving that version of success, that's what motivates me. And that can be, that's not just, that's not getting to an end game and looking back and thinking I was a success. Every business I get involved in will have successful landmarks. And each one of those is a yee-hee moment.

47:57So find those moments of success and give yourself a moment to literally go, yeah, that was good. We did that. And I feel absolutely entitled to say when I've done a good job, I feel quite happy to say, do you know what? I was blinking good then. Because I will also say I was rubbish and nobody can tell me any different. I love that. Because I know whether I'm good and I know whether I'm bad and you won't influence that. I'm not silly. I really struggle to kind of celebrate my wins. You rationalize them away as luck or something like this. Whereas you're, I love your attitude. It's so good. No, just do it.

48:34Just do what I do. Just say, yeah, that was bloody good. Yeah. But I do feel also, otherwise you can get a bit Peter Jonesy. Full of yourself.

48:49you gotta know when you got it wrong you know and you got it you got it you got it but don't carry it around with you just i don't like that so do you have a moment and then say because i mean i'm great at celebrate i celebrate everything oh i found a pound i'm like oh i did this oh i got a like on instagram i celebrate everything i will go to the pub let's get some champagne out of the way we got a new follower on instagram um but like when when you do something badly how do you like without letting carrying it around with you that's what i do i kind of brush everything bad under the carpet um and then anything good i celebrate but i don't carry it with me i'm just like i normally ignore but i'm optimistic so i ignore bad things he's good because he's full of parking tickets oh yeah i'm getting better i'm getting better i've got one congestion charge i need to pay actually just remind me but yeah i'm getting better with the parking tickets congestion charge is still stinging you do need to face up with the bad stuff you know that and i sometimes I get letters in the mail and I don't open it for like a week and my partner is like open your mail I'm like I will it's just let me do this first let me do this and then one day I'll like what do you think's going to happen when you open the mail they might give me a bad news or like a fine or a bill or I don't know and half the time it's like but what do you think's going to happen when you don't open it and I have to worry about it at that point in time I worry about it it's tomorrow's problem when?

49:57manana? manana? no I tell you what I do kick it down the road something bad I've done something wrong I've got it bad I just think about it. What was it? What went wrong there? I thought that was good. I didn't intend to get it wrong. I didn't intend to be bad at something. So what did I do that was wrong? Then it just goes in the toolbox. It just said, don't do that again. That didn't work. Don't do that again. And then move on. I even do that with text messages. If someone texts me something bad, I don't open the message for like a day or two. And I'm like, okay, let me think about what I'm going to reply.

50:28And I just don't reply. Then after two days, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it now. And then I just reply and I'm like, unfortunately, blah, blah, blah. So I kind of like to put off bad things. I don't know. I deal with them eventually. I just don't like to. It's interesting because I always, I always in business, you've always got things you don't want to do. You've got calls you don't want to make. You've got people you've got to let go of sometimes you don't want to do. The minute I felt that, I had to do it then. Straight away. Straight away. Because the more you think about it, I think the bigger and the worse it gets.

50:57The bigger it gets, 100%. You know, just deal with it. So I think that's probably, you know, that's what I do. I literally think, what have I got right? Yeah, okay, I'm not doing that again. Don't mind that. This has gone from a chat about money to a therapy session. I need it, thank you. Appreciate it. I've got a lot of therapy that I need. Yeah, you've sorted my kids out. You've sorted me out. Amazing. Saving the planet with plastic, everything. Yeah, yeah. Job done. Yeah.

51:26If you want a summary of this episode with all the links we mentioned, sign up to our newsletter using the link in the episode description. And do keep writing in. We love hearing from you. So send us a question or tell us what you want us to cover in this season at makingmoneyatkindling.media. If you've just started listening to Making Money, we want to take you on a journey to grow your wealth. So we suggest starting at the beginning with our very first episode with the Financial Times consumer editor, Claire Barrett. I'm Damien Jordan. I'm Tamayna Carole. This episode was recorded by Jack Hobbs and edited and produced by Ruth Edwards.

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