Financial Psychotherapist: How do you fix your money issues?

In short

Podcast Notes: Making Money - Episode: Financial Psychotherapist: How do you fix your money issues?

Episode Overview In this episode, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal discusses the deep-seated psychological aspects of money management, including topics such as overspending, self-sabotage, and building a healthy relationship with money.

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Key Takeaways

Understanding Money Psychology

Money as a Life Force: Money is intrinsic to daily life; our relationship with it can greatly influence our overall well-being.
Financial Anorexia: A term used by Vicky to describe individuals who hoard money and have difficulty spending, analogous to an eating disorder.

The Impact of Early Experiences

Childhood Influences: Early interactions with parents shape perceptions of money. Critical or absent parenting can lead to difficulties in money management as adults.
Behavioral Patterns: Individuals may exhibit black-and-white thinking about money that evolves from their upbringing.

Common Financial Issues

Self-Sabotage: Individuals may unconsciously destroy their wealth due to feelings of shame or unworthiness.
Money Secrets: Clients often have hidden struggles with money that they are ashamed to discuss.

The Role of Therapy in Financial Health

Therapeutic Process: Vicky emphasizes the need for emotional understanding behind financial behaviors, recognizing that money issues often stem from deeper psychological wounds.
Client Dynamics: Therapy often reveals that individuals projecting money anxieties onto others might have unresolved feelings about their own financial situations.

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Key Concepts Discussed

Relationship with Money

Control and Freedom: The need to control money can stem from a desire to feel secure and safe, while financial freedom can create anxiety for some individuals.
Generosity vs. Greed: Overspending or giving excessively can be compensatory behaviors for internal feelings of inadequacy.

Emotional Attachments

Feelings of Guilt and Shame: Individuals may feel guilt about their financial success or shame about their spending habits, which can manifest in various unhealthy ways.
Coping Mechanisms: People often use shopping or saving as coping mechanisms for emotional pain or feelings of unworthiness.

The Importance of Dialogue

Communication in Relationships: Open discussions about money within relationships can prevent conflicts and help partners understand each other's financial behaviors.
Taboo Nature of Money: Many people find it easier to discuss intimate topics over money, which can perpetuate financial issues and anxiety.

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Practical Advice

Self-Reflection: Listeners are encouraged to ask themselves why they make certain financial choices and what emotions drive their behaviors.
Understanding Limitations: Recognize that while money can provide comfort and security, it is not a solution to emotional or psychological issues.

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Closing Thoughts Vicky emphasizes that the journey to understanding and improving one’s relationship with money is ongoing and complex. She advocates for financial education and emotional awareness as pathways to better financial health.

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Recommended Actions

Explore Personal Motivations: Analyze emotional triggers related to spending and saving.
Seek Professional Help: Consider therapy to unpack deeper psychological issues surrounding money.
Educate Yourself: Increase financial literacy to reduce anxiety related to money management.

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For more insights on financial education, listeners can contact the Making Money team at makingmoney@getmost.co.uk.

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Transcript

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0:01You know what I love, Damo? Things that save me time. You don't have YouTube premium, mate, so I just don't believe that. Granted, I'll give you that one. However, I've got one for you. A great time saver in personal finance is Money Week magazine. They spend a lot of time distilling the biggest stories in personal finance down into consumable chunks, so you don't have to scroll and scroll. They give practical tips on savings, investments, pensions, the UK economy, the global economy. It's like your five a day, but for finance. If you want to give Money Week a try, you can get six issues in print and the app absolutely free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money.

0:34After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 a quarter on the subscription, which is exclusive to Making Money listeners. And that's moneyweek.com forward slash money. But there's a link in the description if you just want to click that.

0:48There's a lot of illusions that get attached to money. We all feel we should be better with it, but it's not an innate skill and many people haven't been taught it. Vicky Raynell is a financial psychotherapist who deals with a wide range of issues, from overspending to money secrets and self-sabotage. Her book, Money on Your Mind, looks at how we develop a better relationship with money because it pervades everything we do. Just a warning, we do discuss some issues in this episode, such as anorexia, that some listeners might find it difficult to listen to. I've seen people self-sabotage and basically destroy the wealth they had because of that, because they were so ashamed of having it.

1:26Yeah, I like spending money on other people, but I won't spend money on myself. So what's your sense of where that comes from? I think I want to start really broad and say, you know, why does it matter, the relationship with money? Like, why do you think that that is something that people should think about? Because it's a part of everyone's life. I mean, we earn, we spend, it passes through our hands every day. And so being conscious of why we do what we do with it puts us in a better position so that we can have greater financial well-being, which means we feel more in control of the choices we make.

2:04We're not acting impulsively or out of a place within us that we don't understand. So within the book, at one point, you draw similarities between, say, physical anorexia, controlling how you eat, and financial anorexia. And at first I found that line a bit jarring. Do you think it's as serious as that with money? Do you think that we should hold those kind of things together? you know? Well, what I was trying to say there is that sometimes it can be the same part of us that manifests in different aspects of our lives. So, you know, we could be quite controlling with food and quite controlling with money.

2:46And actually what they found is that sometimes when you're treating the symptoms and not the cause of something, people end up shifting. So And then they become financially anorexic because what you haven't dealt with is the underlying issue. Is that part of them that needs to control something? You know, why does it need to control? Where does that come from? And I think you're right. I mean, physical anorexia is life-threatening. But some people get themselves into such debt and into such a financially threatening situation that it does evoke almost primal fears because money is linked to our existence.

3:26And it ruins their life. It does. It might not kill them, but it stops them living. It does. And there's a lot of research that shows how debt or unemployment are linked to suicide rates. And it brings people, the lack of money or the threat of its lack, really brings people to very desperate places in their minds. And so that's dangerous too. Just for the listeners, what is financial anorexia? So it's a difficulty spending. it's when you can't allow yourself to have the good things that money can buy the same way that somebody with the eating disorder can't allow themselves to have food the good thing and so you become very controlling you know instead of calorie counting you might be opening your bank account a million times a day to check what's going on and you know look at those numbers over and over.

4:15And yeah, it becomes, it's restricting, it's withholding. Yeah. I think the way you hold those two things together and say food and money are not like separate things. They're just almost like ways that we almost represent our internal views of ourself. I thought that was really insightful. That's right. Because money is a symbol. It's an object that we can use or misuse to act out emotional issues. And we do that with food. And so you can think if we take the overeater, sometimes people overeat because they're trying to fill an emotional gap. It's not hunger, right? And in that same way, we can use money.

4:51We might start hoarding it anxiously, build kind of piles of wealth, because there's something within us that is uneasy. Maybe we're very deprived emotionally, and it's left an emptiness. And it's really kind of a hole you're trying to fill. Some people do with food other people do it with money yeah and um you can swing from one to the other and sometimes they match so i might go through these periods of like overspending and overeating and then i go like militant exercise i don't spend a penny and it's like they go with each other yeah and i think what you're talking about there is how there's some pervasive aspects of our personality that we can see acted out through money so some people can be black or white all or nothing.

5:35And that's what they do with everything. They either go to the gym every day, or then they stop going for six months. And then they do that with money. They start, you know, they go through, you know, binge spending to then really withholding and, you know, watching every penny for months. And so that's maybe just an aspect of how they operate in life. And they do the same with money. So you're described as a financial psychotherapist. What does that mean? And what kind of cases do you deal with? A financial psychotherapist is essentially a therapist that helps people unpack what's behind their financial behavior.

6:10So people often come to me having tried going to financial advisors or planners or maybe a coach, but they find that they know what they should be doing with money, but something is getting in the way of them acting the way they would like to. And that's something in my experience are emotions. And that's what I help them unpick and figure out. And so I see people that struggle with all sorts of different problems with money. You know, maybe they're overly generous or overly greedy. They might overspend. Or there's a lot of kind of conflict in couples or in families around money. Inheritance is a big one.

6:49So the kind of all sorts of different presentations that have to do with money. But, you know, I call myself a financial psychotherapist, but any psychotherapist would be able to help somebody unpickle that because we're trained to help people figure out what they do with anything. You know, what is the meaning behind their use of all sorts of different objects like food, money, sex, all things. Why did you focus on money then? It was both a professional and a personal interest. So I had my own family had its complicated relationship with money and I really benefited in my own personal therapy.

7:28I'm picking all that and the impact that it had on me. But the professional interest is the fact that sandwiched between two psychology degrees, I have an MBA degree. And during the MBA, there are kind of behavioral finance classes in which you unpick kind of cognitive biases and things that kind of psychological factors that influence your relationship with money. But in the psychotherapy degree, money wasn't talked about very much at all. And so I thought, well, you know, we have the right skills and tools to help people understand the meaning of what they do and figure out what place within themselves it's coming from.

8:05Why are we not applying it to something that is so pervasive and part of our daily lives? And that's how I started kind of researching and writing about it. What are the most common issues or traits or the kind of problems that people bring to you with money? I would say there's a difference between the most common things that people bring to me versus the most common things out there. I would say maybe overspending is something that most people... That was my chapter. I read it three times. I'm like, why do I spend so much? Yeah, I like that chapter. But, you know, there's some things that everybody might talk to their friends about their overspending, maybe even in a joking way and so on.

8:49I think there are certain things that people come to see me about that carry a huge sense of shame. And it might bring them to therapy because they really feel there's nobody else they can talk to about. So, you know, money secrets is an example or, you know, really controlling dynamics and relationships about money and, you know, people feeling trapped in those. So, you know, I see people that struggle with all sorts of different things, but I wouldn't say it's representative of the most common money problems out there. Yeah, because you said around the people who kind of don't spend that, first of all, they're not going to spend on seeking out help, are they?

9:28Because they don't spend. And then secondly, as well, sometimes these behaviours can be championed as like virtuous when actually they're negative. You made an interesting observation around, say, the FIRE community. And that could be a place where FIRE, financial independence, retire early. It's about extreme frugality. People who have destructive behaviors could go to there and be welcomed, couldn't they? Absolutely. And then you can see how there's something that's being denied there. when you work so hard to make a point so strongly and you insist so much on how right you are and how wrong everybody is, I'd always question, what are you not saying?

10:09What are you trying to hide behind this more extreme behavior? And you're right, it's represented as something good, but maybe there is something not so good lurking in the background that is being, what we say, defended against. Yeah. Go on.

10:55A lot of it gets established early on. I think I felt like mine was a bit later, but I guess a lot of it's subconscious, so you don't really think about it. But when I was looking back, I was like, were my ideas of money formed before I was seven? I was like, you can't really remember much before you were seven, so it's kind of hard to tell. I think a lot of ideas about yourself in the world are formed before then or early in childhood, I would say. I think seven is a bit of an arbitrary number. So, you know, think about it. Your interaction with your parents will shape who you become. You know, if they look at you and smile and interact with you, you'll grow up with a sense that you're lovable, you're good enough.

11:35And so you'll approach the world that way. And if, on the other hand, you had parents who are really critical or maybe absent or always said no to you, then that will shape your sense of agency, right? So how are you going to walk into a salary negotiation as an adult with a sense that people say yes to you if your whole life you grew up hearing, no, you can't have this, you can't have that. And so I think in that way, it's those experiences. What do we expect from others? What do we expect from the world? How will people respond to us that really shape what we do as adults? How confidently we go out there and ask for money or start a business and so on.

12:16We also think that events later in life can shape our financial beliefs. It's not like seven and done. No, no doubt. Later as well. I mean, I've seen people who maybe have been bullied in secondary school and that left them with this, you know, it was a traumatic experience. It left them with a longing to fit in when they grow up in life. And so, you know, fast forward 20 years later, they buy all these clothes because in every group, in every circumstance, in every job, they have to dress the part. They have to feel that they belong. Otherwise, you know, the anxieties from back then, from those experiences, bubble up and feel unbearable.

12:55And that's their way of coping with that. I felt that my work life changed my perception of money. um when i was i became i was a broker i think when i when i graduated my first university and i was working in liverpool street in the city as a commodity broker and they were all about carry money clip so you always have cash and then they want you to spend your cash and stretch yourself so that you do more deals you keep selling and then they would have a guy who came in every week and he would measure people for suits and so like the top brokers would always be getting suit like a new suit every week bring all the materials you're like oh when i joined i'm I want a custom-made suit.

13:30So then I did some deals. I made some money. I was like, oh, broker, a suit guy, come to me, Taylor. Come and do me a suit. So he did me a suit. And they always expect you to spend money. And then also, when you're talking to clients, you have to ask for money, which is very, in England, very taboo. We don't really talk about money, let alone say, how much do you have in your ISA? How much do you have in the stock market? Do you want to invest some in commodities? Our minimum is£10 ,000. and just the process of saying, give me your money, it took like a while to learn, but then I feel like it changed my whole aspect of my outlook on money.

14:05And it's like, okay, spend, like the more you spend, the harder you work and then stretch yourself so that you always, you know, next month you'll be fine because you'll do another deal. So it's always like they kind of institutionalize us to always be not broke, but stretched, stretch. Get a bigger house, get a bigger car, buy more suits. So I feel like, and that was quite late in my life. Well, and as you're talking about this and reflecting on the experience, you're aware of maybe both the pros and the cons of that experience. So it made you more comfortable talking about money, which is an important life skill, right?

14:40But the downside was that maybe, you know, it was an environment that felt really competitive when it came to spending and it pushed you in a direction that then became uncomfortable. Be on the tube and say, I bet you that person gets off at the next stop before that person, 20 quid, and they'd just be betting on who's going to get off the train. It was ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Competition everywhere, right? Let's talk about some of it then from our own personal perspectives, because I think it's interesting after reading the book to reflect on it and get a free therapy session. So I'm 100 % self-denying, I think.

15:13In the sense of I'm very generous with other people, like you benefit from that. took me out to dinner the other night before the football was great yeah i like spending money on other people but i won't spend money on myself like i i feel guilty about it um i don't know and i i've got more money now than i've ever had and i still find it very difficult to spend on myself for sure so what's your sense of where that comes from i've always been obsessed with money one of my earliest memories was like hiding money under the sofa when i was about four i used to like like hide it and then my mom would like try and borrow it off me like i remember that and I used to charge her interest on the money.

15:50So she always used to say my dad was obsessed with money like me. Everyone would say that, but I didn't know my dad. So that, and then I had a lot of bad experiences with money in my 20s, which probably moved it the other way. So yeah, it's always been a dominant theme, money in my life. And how was she with money, your mum? She was pretty good. She didn't have much. It was just me and her. So she was like a spreadsheet person, and always doing, you know, like she didn't invest. She didn't really save, but I always never went without, you know, I always remember having nice clothes and things like this.

16:26Everyone where I lived was poor. So I didn't think that we didn't have much money. You know, it wasn't like I was consciously aware that we were skinned. I didn't realize people had lots of money until I went to uni and then I saw them. But your sense was that she had it under control. She didn't, or did she leave you with any kind of anxiety about it? no I just I was just aware that people had the word like I could see on TV that maybe people had lots of money I just liked money I just liked it I don't know I like the feel of it I like cash I think they look it look beautiful I liked collecting it and like lining it all up and counting it and my nan would have this massive penny jar and I'd just count it every day like tip it all out and line it all up and bag it up and take it to the bank I just love that it's quite common in children kind of uh pre-puberty kind of that sort of age to to play with money in that way to organize and stack it but obviously for you it became an interest to that you know in your whole life yeah and i know you've spoken in in other episodes about the kind of the debt and and those experiences and that's not much appreciated binge watched them Yeah, yeah.

17:39And that had an impact, you said, on why you're here today and what you do what you do. And I guess the question that I had for you was, do you feel that maybe you've kind of overcorrected? A hundred percent. I save more money a month than anyone I know. And I still feel like it's not enough. Every night I look at my spreadsheets before I go to bed to make myself feel comfortable. I check my bank accounts constantly you know like every like it's just constantly checking how much money I'm earning so it's all it's almost as if there's a part of you that is afraid that that could actually happen again yeah it's all going to go away yeah another part of you is conscious that that's kind of unlikely considering how you've set yourself up and all these measures you put in place but it's hard to get in touch with that and reassure yourself I also exist in a career where it can disappear in an instant you get cancelled or you say the wrong thing it's kind of like being a footballer like you get injured socially that can disappear and there's also this thing of potentially this can set my life up forever and I don't want to like drop the ball you know so it's the weight of the responsibility that this is yeah this is you yeah yeah i guess so yeah i mean i it's a blessing though because it's all led me to the point where i sit here and i help other people but yeah i definitely it's kind of crazy to think that like i have an unhealthy relationship with money behind the scenes but i do like it's an obsession well i think you were talking one of the episodes about um every time you spend a hundred you go and put away a hundred and it's kind of an atonement you know and addressing that guilt so it sounds like that's the biggest issue that you need to unpack you know where is that guilt coming from and i would i would suspect it's not just about money and i'd go and investigate there yeah yeah yeah yeah there's a like a big sense of feeling behind which is ridiculous actually ridiculous because I don't have a sense of being behind and I am behind.

19:51So I just don't understand how your brain works, mate. Behind what? Behind home. Behind like other people. Behind where I should be. Like I wasted my twenties and now I got to catch up. I think a lot of people wasted their twenties. Yeah. So it's about mourning the loss of those years. Maybe. Kind of accepting that that's gone and that you can only change what you do from here on. So it's almost as if a part of you is kind of stuck in that, trying to process the guilt that have to do with the debt and not using those years to get ahead. Yeah. And there's like all the guilt of like earning a good amount of money now and what comes with that and like worrying that I'll alienate my friends and people from where I'm from and my family, you know, working class guilt kind of vibe, which sounds so worries me.

20:43It's like a silly thing. It's a real first world problem. It's no first world. And to sit here and be like oh you know my my my wallet's so heavy my friends won't be able to relate to me anymore because i'm making too much bank my wrists yeah like i mean i'm not flashy like that so i don't i don't have anything but you know i i earn a good amount of money well it's not it's not easy and you're certainly not the only one to feel that it's difficult to spend and to enjoy money when our family didn't have enough or when our friends still don't have enough. And there's guilt or shame in that too. And I say shame, which is different from guilt, because a lot of people might have grown up in an environment where there wasn't a lot of money.

21:29And how were the people who did have money talked about? You know, were they the greedy rich? Were they, you know, morally corrupt? And when you become one of them, one of the people with money, then there might be shame because there's a part of you thinking, well, what does that say about me? You know, what will people think that makes me? And so there's kind of an internal conflict because a part of you, you know, knows that you worked hard and you deserve the money you have. But maybe there's a part of you that is, you know, ashamed because of those messages that you took in or internalized about what being somebody with money makes you in a way.

22:08Last time we recorded, Tomei, and you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes. And yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money. But yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much. Yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp. It's a tech platform that makes self-assessment simple.

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23:09We've left a link in the description and use the code MONEY10 for 10 % off your first tax filing. That code is MONEY, M-O-N-E-Y 1-0. So Mr. O 'Carolet, I hear you are a salesman. Elite salesman, yes. One of the best, they say? I've got a little bit of experience in the game, yeah, I could say. Done a few deals. A bill, a bill. What would your compliance team say about you? They will say that I am always nagging them and that essentially I just have beef with compliance. I love the team. Compliance slows down all my deals because every time I get to the finish line, they've got to check documents, KYC, GDPR, and it's just a nightmare.

23:49It slows the deal down by like two, three weeks. It's always on both sides as well, isn't it? Sometimes it can be blocked on the other side. Well, that's where today's sponsor can help. Indeed. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get secure and compliant fast and they stay that way. They do it by automating compliance with over 35 security and privacy frameworks like SOC 2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. Yeah, all of them. And this saves businesses so much time and money. According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers save over half a million dollars a year in costs. Not bad. And they also help you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster, which is great because everybody hates filling out forms.

24:26If you're a business that needs to prove security and compliance, visit Vanta.com forward slash making money to sign up for a completely free demo today. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. Yeah, I see it with my audience where they're, say, from a working class background or they're from a place that doesn't have much money. And then they get an okay job and they start to invest. And then they say that like people think that they're, they think that they're better than their people, the people around them. Do you know what I mean?

24:59It's like, oh, you're one of them now. You invest or you save. And they have this, they say in my comments, it's like, I can't, I try and speak to my family about it. And they say, oh no, that's not for us. Well, it's a dangerous thing not to kind of recognize those feelings and manage them because I've seen people self-sabotage and basically destroy the wealth they had because of that, because they were so ashamed of having it. and they just didn't want to, at some level, cope with the consequences. Of course, this happens unconsciously. They're not doing it on purpose, but, you know, making kind of a reckless investment or, you know, giving money to somebody without doing any due diligence as to what the opportunity is about.

25:38And it's all lost. And then, you know, you find that actually what was difficult was having money. And so they unconsciously found a way to rid themselves of it. I definitely find it hard to have money. to hold on to it. Yeah, honestly, I've got it. I'm like, what do I do with it? I better buy this. I better spend this. I better go on holiday. It's got to do something. It's got to do something. It can't just be sitting there. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas I'm like, it's got to work for me and I can only live off what the money makes for me. Do you know what I mean? Like every penny has to be invested. So go on, T.

26:05Let's go at you a bit. When you said people waste their 20s, like I spent my whole 20s just traveling the world. Like I didn't have a kid. I just had any time I had a good month, I just got on holiday. I was going on holiday like every two months into like Romania, America, like everywhere. So for me, I want to be like unbiased. So I asked my partner, how do you think my approach to money is? And she said, terrible. You don't know how to save. It comes and goes. And in the back of your head, you act as if you have a trust fund that will bail you out. You spend like a millionaire. That word for word, I spend like a million.

26:43Your Albanian misses. you get the most honest replies. Yeah, she's just straight, straight to like... I was sure the other day, she's like, you've lost weight. It looks good on you. Don't get fat again. He's like, yeah, if I put on weight, she would have told me you put on weight. Yeah, she's like, you put on weight, you don't look good. Yeah, I think it's part of the therapy thing. Yeah, I know, it's amazing though. Yeah, it's really good. But I mean, for me, when I get money, I don't waste money. So like, well, I don't think I waste money. Some others might think I do, but I like to stop looking at my watch.

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27:10I know, but like, for example, if I'm going to go and spend lots of money shopping, I won't just go to like Selfridges or Howard's. I'll go to Bista Village where it's 40 % off and I'll buy like five pairs of shoes and like buy loads of stuff. So I'll splurge out, but I'm not going to waste money on like an Alexander McQueen jacket for like 10 grand. Vicky's seeing through your bullshit here. I'm looking at Vicky's eyes thinking, oh, okay. I'll buy five pairs of shoes. I don't waste money. They were on sale. They were all on sale, 40 % off. So I'm saving. That addresses some of the guilt. But then like on holiday, if I go on holiday, I spend like I'm not coming back from holiday I'm like okay I'm here for 10 days I will come back with an empty bank account obviously I've got like investments but I will spend everything in my current account on holiday because I'm like I've flown all the way to Bali or to like wherever it is like Thailand I'm going to have fun here I'm not going to be like oh let's not get an Uber because I want to save money I'm on holiday so I spend money on experiences and like having a night like nice meals and holidays and so that if I die tomorrow I'll be like well I had a great life I've been to all these countries I've got all these experiences but then it's not really planning for the future as much as someone like Damo or probably the average person well it's about scale isn't it and in a way um you know I don't think people should always be measured about everything in life because then maybe you miss out on living and really enjoying life but it's about okay I know I enjoy going on a holiday and not really thinking about how much I'm spending and I'm going to allow myself to do that but I'm going to cut somewhere else right so i think what you're telling me is that for you that thinking kind of tends to apply in a lot of areas so you might you know go shopping and spend a lot and go on holiday and spend a lot and you know and then i'll ride a bicycle around london because i'm like okay i don't want to spend money on like fixing my car or petrol because i spent loads on this so i'll take the money from somewhere else so i don't mind like riding a bicycle or you know saving money like okay i'm not going to have any takeaways for two weeks because i spent loads on holiday so you do So I compromise, yeah.

29:09Well, so I can speak from someone who knew you at Union, and I think you're better now, but he would be like popping a bottle of champagne one day, and then the next day we'd be pushing his car into a petrol station because he's gone out of petrol. I've put like£1.30 in my car tank before, in my Mercedes. Like put 70p, and then the guy at the counter's like... But he's popping a bottle of Moet the night before, putting it on Instagram. It's like swings and roundabouts to me, yeah. Yeah, it's more swings than roundabouts. But I think Tomein has this kind of like, there'll always be more money. Like I've got this right now, let's get rid of it.

29:44You know, it's the more we'll come. Yeah, I'm very optimistic in life. So I'm always like, I'll get more money. It leads you to buy like things like cryptocurrencies and investment because you're like, yeah, why wouldn't I get rich? You know, it's coming. And you're the pessimist, right? Always thinking about worst case scenario and so on. That's why we're good balance. I'm trying to get him to spend more and it's working a little bit. It's working a little bit. when he's getting me to save more. And like the other day, we were talking about what should he do with his money? And I was like, rather than buying a gold watch, why don't you elevate your bottom standard of living?

30:16Get a robot vacuum so that it does the house so you save a bit of time. Because this is how I think about money. I'm like, how do I drag up the bottom? The worst case scenarios and the stuff that I would like, how do I get rid of those things? Not how do I fly private? I'm not interested in that. Or get a bigger house or all these things. Get a cleaner, get a gardener. Does it make sense? Because I got a robot vacuum, Guffy. Yeah, Guffy. and he like goes around and my son likes to jump on him and press the button i'm like stop that costs 200 pounds but um the vacuum just goes around and like clean zoom so now my missus doesn't have to vacuum as like once a week like a heavy vacuum but it's it saves a lot of time so you get the damien's like time is money and you want to do things like get a cleaner get a vacuum bring up the lower level of your life so that your life is easy and you have more time to do other things and like i think that was one of some of the best advice he's ever given me yeah we need a a lot of help and we're just talking to each other and driving each other into brick walls clearly but I guess like your natural tendency would be to spend more on items that are well that create an image luxury wealth like shows of wealth yeah definitely 100 % he didn't like that he's balling out we got I've got shells in my hair and he's shaking them in my face I had brain if you walk into a club he flips out his chains He flips out the Jesus praise and comes out like...

31:36You're a funny guy. It's true. It's true. It's true. Yeah, I'm very optimistic and I do like to spend... But I don't mind not having money. Like, that's the thing. Like, Damon seems to be scared of not having money. I'm like, if I don't have money for like a week or two, I'm like, I'm going to get paid. I'm going to... I've got like lots of different sources of income. I'm like, it'll be fine. Like, I'll just be broke for a week and then I'll just eat like baked beans on toast and sausages and I'll be fine. So like, for me, it's not like the fear of losing it isn't really there, which I need to have because you know now I have a kid and I'm getting older so I need to have a bit of fear but I just don't have any fear of not making money.

32:09So I wonder if your partner carries all the fear. Oh definitely oh definitely. You said that you're like I'm never stressed she's always stressed. Well and sometimes people kind of polarize in relationships and so even you know somebody who might have a natural tendency to maybe be a little bit more reckless with money if they find a partner who is quite responsible with money what ends up happening they become more reckless and she becomes even more responsible and she holds all the anxieties for the two of them and all the you know being sensible and all of that and the other person kind of uses the dynamic unconsciously to yeah to give that freedom to indulge in a way how do how do people how do you go about fixing these problems because one thing that was clear from you're almost like a point of last resort for some people where they've tried to go through all of like the quick hacks and tips and the things that it's like you know look at the sun in the morning and that'll fix your life yeah and then they come to you and it's none of that's work so how do you go about addressing these problems well it's about trying to figure out what is behind it so um and there's many examples in in the book about people who you know might have shown up with, for example, an overspending problem or what seemed like an overspending problem.

33:31They're like, you know, I ran out of money in the first week of every month. You know, my parents give me this allowance and it's gone after a week. And OK, so you start investigating, you know, what have you tried in the past? And they've tried everything on. I downloaded a budgeting app. I tried to go out with only cash. I tried, you know, all the tips and advice that they know them. So it's not not knowing. So what is it? And we try to unpick what they're spending on. Is it luxury items? Is it this, that? And it turned out for this particular person, it had nothing to do with what they were buying, but it was about getting rid of the money.

34:12Why? Because when they run out of money, they would call their father. and has the relationship with a father where actually since the parents got divorced the only time they ever talked to their father is to ask for money and so you see how for them fixing the money problem becoming a more responsible spender would have ruined a relationship at least that's what they thought they would have lost a relationship with a parent and so kind of understanding that and saying well how else can you build that relationship so that you're not you know self-destructing financially to do that that's what unlocked it it wasn't about budgeting tips at all and the father probably on the other side of it is like they only ever call me for money they probably resent the relationship as well like as a parent like i hate it when my son calls hi dad uh can i have five pound for v-box i'm like you little like ask me how my day was take me out for dinner before you like try and get me into bed do you know what I mean it was like it's funny that it can manifest in that way though it seems almost a bit abstract doesn't it well it and that's why it takes a little bit of time to to uncover like you see people that keep themselves tied to others uh financially and kind of orchestrating this these financial rescues uh you see it in couples but also in families because there's a part of them that is afraid of growing up or they're, you know, afraid of being left or abandoned in the relationship.

35:46And so having a partner that always, you know, saves you in some way or another makes you feel calm. It kind of calms that anxiety. It makes you feel looked after, you know, look, they're looking after me. They're looking after finances and, you know, they're a good partner and they won't leave me. Do you find that like some people need to be looked after and some people need to look after? Is there that kind of? Yes. So it always takes two to create a dynamic. And so you'll see that, you know, we'll be attracted to a person that brings out a dynamic that suits our narrative. so as i was saying before you know the person that maybe is afraid of the part of them that is a bit out of control might find a partner who feels very in control who feels you know gives them that ease that you know with this person i'll be fine they're going to keep me in check yeah she my partner told me like a week before she's like you know we've got rent next thursday we've got like electricity this day i'm like cool i just send her the money like i'm like because she knows I'll just forget or just be late or something.

36:55So she gives me notice. But they said, I think in your book, you said half, there was a global study, half the people in the world worry about money, but in the UK and US, it's probably higher. So like this is a - Even though we're richer. Even though we're richer, but we have more money concerns and stress and worries. Isn't that like, do you feel that when you see these people and like how many people are not coming to seek help if the majority of people are worried about stress? Like, what's the solution for all these people worried about stressing my money? Look, one easy solution is financial education.

37:28So a lot of the anxiety often is down to not understanding money, not knowing enough about it. You know, we all feel we should be better with it, but it's not an innate skill and many people haven't been taught it. So we're anxious because we don't understand. We don't know what to do. We're too ashamed to ask and we don't talk about it to other people. And they've done studies that show that when they teach people more about money, they become less anxious about it. So that's in one way an easy way to address it. I feel guilty about my position in the world because I teach people those basics.

38:07And I know that it changes their life because it turns them, it's like zero to one in terms of they don't invest, now they can. And through that process, if they do that for 20, 30 years, it will change their life. But then I still carry all these kind of things behind the scenes with my own financial situation of like, you know, the issues that I have. And it's like, I feel like an imposter almost. Like I haven't figured out the money problem. I invest and I've got plenty of it, but. That sounds like the money problem is over. Yeah, and it is. I solved one problem, but then I've got like, I still feel the same.

38:38I still feel like, oh God, I've not got enough. Like, you know, I don't know. But does that kind of deny the fact that you're helping people or is it exactly what informed your passion, what fueled your passion for helping people? You know, in a way, if you hadn't had those experiences in your past, you probably wouldn't be here talking so passionately about this and teaching people. Yeah, no, 100%. But you do feel like you should have the answers. I guess you've, you like, you probably like people look to you like you've got the answers. and you might go home sometimes and think you've got situations in your life that you wish you dealt with better but yeah it's you almost feel like you have to be perfect and that you want to say at the end of the yellow brick road where I am life is great and everything around the concerns goes away but yeah it doesn't I will say like where I am now financially is much better than where I was and like there's the I can pay for things I can provide things and that's an amazing feeling but i still i still refreshing the spreadsheet all the time which i don't need to do that well but i think what you're telling people is that it's always a work in progress we can always get better at it and we can't stop trying and we can't beat ourselves up for the things we don't do well we can only learn from them and try to do better people people say to like they say to us but like we see in the comments as well they're like oh thank you so much the podcast has like changed my family's life and now investing it's made such a difference and i bump into people and she's like oh they say the same to me and i'm like to be honest it's changing my life too because i'm learning the same things you guys are learning it's changing mine it's like yeah the journey like you said going from zero to one night i was pretty much only investing crypto and like a few stocks and shares and now i've like got my son sip isa my my isa like everything's like moving in the right direction so it's i think it's a journey and when you said your friends said or your family said oh it's not for me this this whole investing thing it's not for me is that from like you said people it's a lack of knowledge or like insecurity and they're like oh i don't know it so it's not for me it's too risky i'm not involved is it yeah i think people avoid it because yeah it's an easy defense to avoid it right to say it's not for me i'm not good at it yeah i'm bad with money yeah you hear that all the time but actually i challenge that And I say, okay, when you say you're, what do you mean that you're bad?

41:00Well, you know, I don't, I don't really understand the whole kind of pension thing. Okay, so you feel you don't understand pensions and what else? And they're like, well, you know, it's, I'm good at budgeting, but you know, I just don't understand investments. And I'm like, okay, so as you kind of try to unpick that, you get to a point where you're like, this person isn't bad with money. they actually don't know enough about investments and would like to learn a bit more, you know, go and find out more about it. And that eases the anxiety. You know, you can make it specific. It's not all vague and in the childhood.

41:36You know, some of it is quite simple. If you allow yourself to ask some questions to yourself, you can do that in conversation with somebody, but it's about, you know, investigating what's behind this fear. What is it? Is it a fear that I'll lose everything? Is it a fear that I don't know enough about it? Where can I get that help? Who can I ask? Yeah, I think like what your book like made me realize was I can sit here and say to people buy a global index fund inside of an ISA and do that for 20 to 30 years. And you won't you won't die poor and you won't have the decision in retirement of should I eat or should I turn the heating on?

42:11But it won't take away the underlying issues that you manifest through money that are nothing about money. they're more about how you've been bought up who you are your own insecurities and what's happened to you in life and maybe I was thinking like more money would fix those things in me but actually I probably need to have a conversation with myself or with someone like you to to dig that out well and that is a a common belief for people that money will fix whatever it is you know the conflict in the family, or it will make me feel more worthy, or finally, my dad will take me seriously, or whatever it is.

42:52And then they find out that actually money didn't fulfill those promises. And they come to therapy to, you know, find out what will give them those things. How can those problems be addressed? But yeah, there's a lot of illusions that get attached to money. And it's quite disappointing to find out. And there's cases in the book of clients that, you know, come because they have no more space on the wall for their achievements. And actually, despite all the wealth, they're still unhappy. And that's a difficult place to be in because it carries a lot of shame. So there's a lot of kind of wealthy people who might struggle with money issues and not feel like they can talk about them because aren't you supposed to be happy if you have?

43:40Everyone's telling them they're living the dream. I always look at like the royal family and billionaires and think they're probably pretty miserable people these. Because to get to that level, like the royal family especially are in a golden cage, right? And then like Elon Musk and these people are just working to the bone, everyone looking at them, everyone judging everything they say. But everyone's like, oh, they live in the dream. Even like a celebrity, say like a Justin Bieber, can't leave the house. Imagine not being able to leave your house. That's a crazy thing, right? Yet we don't think about that, do we?

44:11Their worlds are tiny. We think they live in these massive mansions, but we can roam. They're in a compound. But somehow we still believe that money will make us more lovable, We'll buy us friends. We'll buy us all these things that we're missing or we're longing for. Everyone knows money won't make them happy, but they want to find that out for themselves. But you mentioned there was a correlation to wealth and happiness. Is it like a vague correlation or is it like up to a certain level? Well, I'm always suspicious of kind of studies that try to measure happiness on a scale, right? Or through a questionnaire.

44:51And there's a lot of contradicting studies around this. But overall, they find that once you have enough money to cover your basic expenses, there's a difference in how happy you feel about your life. So wealthier people will overall feel happier about their lives. But when you look at their day-to-day happiness, they struggle just as much as everybody else. so you know we all have our ups and downs our mood swings our you know emotional struggles and that's uh that's universal money won't fix that i do think having money in a bank account like an emergency fund having a well-funded pension and investments there's like a sense of security that comes with that that just makes you walk around the day-to-day a little bit easier like the feeling of instability when you've got nothing when i used to get paid when i was in debt and all my money was gone that is like your backs against the wall like you feel horrible it's like it's there all the time and that's why kind of the i think it was 70 or 80 000 pounds or dollars depending what study you look at like above that level that's when they say uh that you know people overall feel happy um but it's below that level you're struggling with you know you don't have enough savings and you might not be meeting your needs adequately and so on.

46:18I can't remember Fitzwolf of Wall Street because as a broker, they made us watch all the like sales films, but there's one film and they're like, yeah, they say money doesn't make you happy, but if I had to go to court - Look at the smile on my face. That's another one. Ben Affleck. Ben Affleck, that's a great film. Ferrari. Not that one. Yeah, he's like, if I have to turn up to court, I'd rather turn up in a tailor-made suit in a Ferrari than like on the bus, like home, like yeah, or being homeless. So it's like, it doesn't bring you happiness, but it, like David said, brings you comfort and security and it makes things a little bit easier.

46:48Do you think a lot of this is to do with money being a taboo? Because I think you said in your book, I like the quote, people would rather talk about what's in their pants than in their pants pocket. So like people would rather talk about sex with their friends and family than money, which seems like a bit - So true. Yeah. Women will talk about like, oh, how was he in this? They won't talk about their wages. Yeah, exactly. So like, why is it such a taboo? I mean, I get it in England because, you know, we're very like proper and traditional, but in America, it's a taboo as well, it says. And like, yeah, you think it's such an important topic.

47:18Why is it such a taboo when it's so important to all of our lives? Well, I think it's because it means different things to different people and the parameters that we each set around, you know, what's frugal, what's excessive, what's risky, what's not. They're different for everyone. And so if we don't know what's going on in the other person's mind when we bring up money, then there can be a lot of fear of judgment, of criticism. And so it's safer to not bring it up and not mention it. But I think it's because of the differences and the less they're talked about and the less it's normalized, the less we understand.

47:56And so you see, it becomes kind of a vicious cycle. It gets worse for us. It's like politics, isn't it? You don't know what the other person's beliefs are. So it's probably best just not to talk about it. You don't want to rub someone up the wrong way or say something that, you know. Makes you look bad. Or makes them feel bad about themselves. True. Do you think the goal is to be emotionless about money then? No, not at all. I think it's about understanding the emotions that drive your money behavior. So, you know, when you're about to sign papers for a mortgage, you can't not feel emotional about it.

48:29And you should feel emotional, but you should feel a tiny bit scared. But it's, you know, you're about to take a big responsibility. But I think it's understanding the emotions that is helpful. So that, you know, if you're putting all your money into one stock, because actually you feel, you know, a bit uneducated when it comes to money. and you feel a bit ashamed of admitting that you don't understand much about other stocks, but everyone's investing in that one stock. It's kind of trying to, so you're going to put all your money there. Well, that's important knowledge to have, because if you know that it's your shame about not knowing that is making you invest all your money in one place and not diversify, then you can step back and say, wait a minute, am I doing what's best for my money or am I just acting out of this feeling of shame?

49:22And so whatever the situation is, knowing that there are feelings that are driving it, it gives you a choice about whether you are going to listen to those feelings or not. You have some questions that people can ask themselves. You kind of alluded to one there. Are there others that you think people that might even not think that they have an issue can ask? Hmm. Well, for example, if you're struggling with a money behavior you're unhappy about, you know, try to spot patterns. You know, when is it that you do this? Let's say it's overspending. You know, is it when you're out with friends and you're always the one buying an extra round?

50:00Well, you know, what about being with friends? Or what about that particular group of friends makes you want to spend more? Yeti. Yeah. Well, every time I go here, I'm like, he didn't buy a thing. I'm helping you. You're like, you and me. You're like, ah.

50:19Another therapy session for today. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, no, no, no. But, you know, depending on what it is, try to think, well, what if I don't do it? You know, what if I don't spend in that occasion? What feelings come up for me? Do I start feeling bored? Is it lonely? And then you start identifying what are the feelings that are driving you to do that. And I think, you know, in your case, you were saying, well, if I don't check my bank account, I start feeling anxious. I start being afraid that, you know, I'm going to find out something bad, bad news or whatever it is. And so kind of unpacking the feelings that are driving you to that behavior, I think, is helpful.

51:00And also, what would you lose if you were to give that up? So in some cases, for example, you know, OK, if I weren't overly generous, if I didn't kind of bring two bottles of wine every time I went to a friend's house, then I would feel inadequate. I would feel, you know, that people, my presence is not good enough. And so I always feel like I have to complement it with something. And that's why I'm generous. So I think asking, you know, what would you have to give up emotionally to change this behavior, I think is also helpful. Yeah, it's like you maybe don't feel like you're good enough. And that's why you want to provide like this value that's like, I'll pay for dinner or I'll bring the two bottles.

51:46Yeah, you're compensating for something. Yeah, he says I love champagne. He brought two bottles of champagne. We're having a meal after this to celebrate buying the podcast because we, me and Will, the co-founder at the back, bought the podcast and I bought two bottles of champagne to celebrate it. Are you compensating for it? I was like, damn, she's good. I was like, one for me and one for everyone else. Cheers to have a good one. Then he leaves, ah, yeah, then buy a pig. I bought some IPAs. Yeah, okay. Two IPAs, he bought two bottles of champagne. You bought two tinnies. Mr. Overspender. Yeah, I know when to overspend though, you see.

52:24But I love spending money on other people. That makes me feel good about myself. It doesn't feel like it's wasted. The same with my son. But then I do worry about that. This is one thing I wanted to talk to you about children because I think it resonates with a lot of people. One answer I don't have, like people always say to me, you should create content for kids. I'm like, I have no idea how to be a good parent in terms of money habits. My nature is to provide my son with everything because I might not have had everything. And I think that that's the wrong thing to do. It's a natural response to want to give our children a different experience from the one we had.

52:59And it's, but sometimes we end up kind of overcorrecting and doing the opposite, as you've said. And so I think we teach children about money in many different ways. I do think it's good to teach them about the value of money. So give them that experience, you know, the allowance early on so that they can have the experience of managing their money, making those choices. You know, do I spend? Do I save? Do I, you know, put it away, give it to a friend? You know, all of those things so that they can start to really understand also all the feelings that come with, you know, the joy of giving it to a friend.

53:39But then maybe the regret that you've given too much away and there's not enough for you and so on. but I guess what you're saying is that you're not teaching the limits around money that you find so helpful and that you had to learn the hard way and so you need to be mindful of that I also love going to like a wacky warehouse or like you know have you been to a water park they're amazing you can't go as a 35 year old man by yourself so I'm like in there I'm like this place is great. Let's go. You know, every weekend we'll go do something. Well, that's great. And I guess you can do that. But it probably teaches him that that's normal.

54:17And it's not. When I was a kid, we went to cinema once a year and that felt like a big deal. And I appreciated it. The cinema to him is like standard Friday. This is basic. Yeah. Get me an ice blast and I'll have the usual. I mean, I'll have the same. You're right, Terry. The usual. The usual for me. Shut the M &Ms in. Yeah. But I think what could be helpful is a lot of times we make, decision in our minds and, you know, that children don't see. And so maybe doing a little bit of that out loud. So saying, look, you know, we came to Wacky Warehouse again, which is quite an expense. So maybe we'll save on the whatever it is, the popcorn or the ice cream this time.

54:58Or, you know, even in the supermarket, you know, if you bring them along, kind of talk them through kind of the process that you go through in order to make the choices. So, you know, if you reach out for one cereal, say, actually, I'll go for this one because it's a bit cheaper. And then they can start learning from you that, you know, you are making money choices in a kind of mindful way. And so you can, in a way, teach them that you can enjoy money and go to Wacky Warehouse, but that somewhere else you're going to have to save. So maybe, you know, we'll buy the cheaper bike and uh rather than the you know top end one but it does work because i had the other day i was i was had a business expense and i took a picture of a receipt and my son was like what you're doing and i was like oh i'm i'm taking a picture because i can get the vat back on this because it's a business expense it's definitely a business expense and then um now everywhere we go he's like he's getting the receipts he's like you get six pound vat back on this and he became i was like no that's not a business expense it's a meal out but he became so aware of it and he's like can i check your back check your back and every receipt he's getting he's like looking so he really took that yeah and there's some clever books out there that can teach kids about uh money in kind of a simple age-appropriate way and that's the other thing you need to do things in an age-appropriate way you don't want to kind of overshare about your financial anxieties with a child because that will you know only overwhelm them and it's just about giving giving them experience with the thing itself.

56:27But one of the points that I make in the book is that we're teaching children about money in many other ways. You're teaching him about giving and receiving when you're giving and receiving in other ways, when you're giving a compliment or whatever it is. And so they learn a lot about sharing with siblings, about equality, about fairness in all these other areas of life. And that's useful for how they'll behave with money later on as adults. When you said that it's natural for people to want to give kids a better childhood than they had, or I had a great childhood, so I would be like Damo. I'm like Damo.

57:10I want to give my son everything, like anything. He's almost two, so he can't really speak very much. So he can't tell me what he wants. But I know when he wants an ice cream or like whatever, I take him to the park a lot. but isn't it natural for people like to not want to save on your kids like you work hard for your family so if they want to go to the amusement park like every day and you can take them every day wouldn't you want to isn't natural to be like not show them restraints because the rest of the life they're going to have restraints you can't do this you can't go there you can't do this like you need more money for this you need more followers for whatever it is but like shouldn't you want to just spoil them when they're kids if you can because that's why we work so they can have a good life well i think though you've you said it i think the word spoil says everything you know uh it's great to give to children and in a way we experience joy when we give them and see it through their eyes and it makes us feel good but i'd rather spend something for him than myself it feels better yeah yeah and also we kind of live vicariously through them you know if your parents never took you to disney and you take your own children to disney it's almost as if you know The child in you is going to Disney.

58:15And that's a great feeling. And I don't think people shouldn't do that. But I think you need to overall as a parent think, you know, am I just saying yes to everything? And so I'm not teaching this child any limits. And how is that setting them up for life? Because then they'll grow up and feel that, you know, money will always be there. It's, you know, unlimited. And they want to learn. Everyone will give them stuff. Everyone will give them. They'll always get what they want. And are you being the best parent for them by modeling that? It's a hard thing to do, though, isn't it? To deny a child when you just want them to be happy and love you.

58:54But, you know, sometimes there's kind of nice ways to do it. You know, if a child wants, you know, three scoops of ice cream, you don't say you don't have ice cream. You can just say, you know, we'll get the small one today because, you know, three scoops is, I don't know, six pounds. and you know it's so you're gonna I'm there with 10 scoops like you can have the little cone right how do you feel about giving allowance though because you said you said great points on like it shows teaching them how to share and like the value of it and looking forward to allowance and how to spend but and like budgeting but doesn't it it seems like giving them free money shouldn't you like I said in another episode my parents made me do some chores for like allowance and then everyone was like what chores you shouldn't make your children work for money and I'm like what?

59:41Why not? It's a slippery slope because then when where do you draw the line around you know what are they responsible for at home? I was responsible for loading and unloading the dishwasher and setting the tables so and then if I wanted extra money I could wash my parents car and I did a terrible job every time and then they took it to the car wash after because I was not very good at washing the car but yeah it was like things like that. But I think that's that's a good way to do it like there's things that we're all expected to help with at home and then there's things that are exceptional that we can get paid for so you know washing the car or you know whatever a gardening job or something like that right but not making it uh conditional otherwise um i guess you'll create really lazy children that won't want to do anything what about so in a relationship then i want to flip it on the other side rather than looking internally what happens if someone's got a relationship with someone that they think has money issues like that's dragging down the relationship saying how do they address that so well talking about it uh would be a good start i think it's people argue about money they don't talk about money very often um so it ends up being a dynamic in which you're kind of pointing at the other and telling them that they're doing it all wrong and that doesn't lead couples anywhere.

1:01:02What's more helpful is try to help the other person understand why they're doing what they're doing. Do you see what you're doing? Do you see the cost of it? Where do you think it's coming from? Why do you think you behave in this way? And in a way, what I've seen a lot is that there's pluses and minuses to everyone's approach to money, as we were talking about your approaches, right? So maybe the downside of your approach is that you might not enjoy money as much as T does, but the downside to your approach is that maybe you're not kind of building those reserves and planning for the long term in the way.

1:01:45And what ends up happening in relationships is that we point at the negative thing of one person's behavior without acknowledging that there is a downside to our own as well. And so I think getting into a place in which we're both talking about there's pros and cons, but let's try to find a compromise in which our approaches become complementary instead of thinking of ourselves as incompatible when it comes to money. I think it's helpful. Looking at the book and some of the more extreme examples that are quite fascinating, you know, like the edges of like the financial personality in a way. Yeah, you mentioned some of the cases that you deal with in the book, some of the more extreme ones like FINDOM or financial domination.

1:02:32Well, that's an extreme form of financial self-sabotage. It's basically people that go online and find somebody to dominate them financially. So what they're doing is they're giving financial control to this other person, the dominatrix, who makes financial requests and they obey. So this can be, you know, go to the ATM and take out this money and give it to me or buy me this thing. And it's tricky, it can become quite addictive. There's a lot of people that do this under, you know, the influence of drugs and, you know, when they're not thinking clearly, who can lose fortunes? And so they get a kind of some kind of psychological release by feeling powerless in that dynamic.

1:03:21And, you know, when you start working with people who struggle with that, it links back to early experiences, usually of abuse, in which they felt powerless back then. And so they recreate that experience of feeling powerless. But this time they have the power to say when it's going to stop, right, by ending that conversation. And so they kind of triumph over the trauma back then. So you can see how something so unrelated to a money experience can manifest itself as a money problem. Who's on the other side of that? And how are they comfortable dominating someone where they just extract money from them?

1:04:00Because they're kind of like scamming the person in a way, aren't they? We're scamming with consent. Yeah, but it's still like you would feel uncomfortable probably. You'd be like, I don't want to do that to someone. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. And like if that's where people get their kicks, then okay. Well, you know, I think there's a lot of ethical issues with that because you're essentially exploiting people who are very vulnerable emotionally. And most times they don't have a clear mind when they're making those choices. And so there's, you know, there's different ways to help these people.

1:04:32And fortunately, you know, banks are becoming better at dealing with mental health issues and, you know, trying to help people who get into models because of those. And so, you know, I have the case of a client who called their bank and said, look, I'm addicted to Fendom and I've spent all this money there and I'm working on it with a therapist. I'm trying to beat this habit, but can you help me with this debt of accumulating? So the bank forgave some of the debt and put in place measures so that any time he went online and created a transaction, there would be a 24-hour period in which he could regret and could go back and undo what he did, which was really helpful for this person.

1:05:17It's quite nice for the banks. Banks aren't normally so friendly and responsive. Yeah, but there's different organizations kind of lobbying in favor of people who struggle with mental health issues and that get in the way of their making sensible financial choices. Yeah, one of my aunties was bipolar and she would just throw all the money away basically in 24 hours when she'd have like a manic episode. She would just get rid of it all. Yeah, so there's very strong links there. Now there's more research coming out showing that people with ADHD have more money problems because, of course, part of having ADHD is being quite impulsive.

1:05:58And so that comes out in your financial behavior as well. Do you see any other forms of extreme, you know, like the Fyndam? Is there other ones that are like that? Well, I think there's extreme in all of our money behavior. So I've seen extreme generosity. You know, people who become in a way masochistic by giving everything to others and being left with nothing. Or with financial anorexia, there's, you know, the example of somebody in the book who, despite having millions in the bank account, can buy themselves a coat. And so you see... Yeah, he would walk in Milan, like freezing cold in Milan, and said that he felt strong because he didn't need the coat.

1:06:41Yeah. So if you grow up in a family in which there's pride and deprivation, you know, maybe parents were, you know, martyrs in some ways and they showed that, you know, it's a good thing to do to give everything to others. And then, you know, that's what you might do when you grow up. It made me also like think about friendships in the past that where I've like kind of moved away from them because I thought the individual was like a bit of a dick. But actually I was probably being, I wasn't understanding their side. So everyone's knows someone who's like really tight, tries to get out of paying for their share of the bill.

1:07:17Stop looking at me. I was like looking for agreement, not saying it's you. He's a generous guy. I'm too generous. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. That's not what I meant. I was like you know like I had a friend once who bought my son an ice cream was like I'll buy him an ice cream I was like oh that's nice and then when we got back to the house he was like can you have that£1.20 back for the ice cream and I was like oh that's a bit I was like that's a bit out of pocket I heard about that yeah I heard about that recently someone had a play date and then afterwards the mum sent an invoice they're like your kid sat on my couch that's like wear and tear like 50p they had like two juice boxes from the fridge that's like£1 each like I cooked them lunch and I'm like whoa you send your kid for a play date invoice afterwards.

1:07:57They're like, I would obviously do the same if my kid went to yours. So can we just like, and then they paid it, then I was just like 16 quid or whatever. But like, you don't expect that. But I guess that's probably from the past issues. We carry a blueprint of what relationships are like, right, from the past. And so if you grew up, let's say, in a family where people were rapacious around things, it was all about, you know, survival of the fittest in a way. And then you bring that to your adult relationships and you might, you know, be counting every penny. But for others, you know, it's really hard to give because they feel depleted internally.

1:08:39So if you don't feel you have very much in you, then giving is very difficult. You're left feeling kind of impoverished or maybe exposed because you're you're afraid it makes you vulnerable to have given how could if you encounter that kind of person in your life and you you like that person but you find that part of their personality really hard to be around it makes it hard to go out socially if they like trying to shirk on the bill or like trying to get the best deal how can you manage that as an individual well Well, I'd say, I think talking about it sometimes can be helpful. And, you know, there's different ways to do it.

1:09:20It's not like you're going to sit down your friend and be like, we need to talk about how stingy you are. But, you know, sometimes, you know, we hear things through jokes, for example, are you being tight again? Or, you know, so you can help them see what they're doing in a way that isn't too kind of critical or judgmental. I think that that's helpful. And then you expressed something, you got it off your chest and they might have heard it or might not. Some people don't want to hear what we tell them. But I think, as you said a minute ago, sometimes we need to understand and empathize with the fact that this isn't coming out of malice or trying to be a bad person.

1:10:03Sometimes it's coming out of an insecurity, or maybe that's what people did to us. They never gave. And so we grow up and we're not giving. So maybe keeping that in mind that maybe your friend didn't receive very much. You know what Ollie would say? My mate Ollie would say, you've got short arms and deep pockets. Anytime you don't pay for a round, he's like, you've got short arms and deep pockets. So like, he was every single round, so you're going to get around because he's going to keep making the same joke and get it again. I've got long arms, so I can't even get away with that. I've got long arms.

1:10:34You've got long arms as well. Ollie's a legend. How long does it take people to work out these issues on average? I mean, I know it's a big question, but is it like one and done? I'm weighing up the cost here thinking, can I spend this money on myself to fix these issues? Yeah. So, you know, if you've spent whatever it is, 20, 30, 40 years being one way, you're not going to change in a week. So two sessions. Discount mobile issue. Yeah. I think sometimes just figuring something out about yourself can have a powerful effect, right? Like the dad thing with that woman. Exactly. Now, that doesn't mean that the next day the relationship was fixed, but it already set her down the right track.

1:11:25But we're all different, which is wonderful, but also frustrating. and in therapy some people make amazing progress in a few months and other people are there 10 years later and what does it look like just because therapy we all i mean you've got the couch on the front of the book right so it's like we have this like stereotype maybe like the sopranos or something lying on the couch and confessing what what is what do you do what does the session look like um so with my clients they sit in a chair across from me they're not lying down. And the session starts with what's on your mind or in the very first session, I would ask them what brings you here.

1:12:05And we take it from there. You know, there isn't a formula. I don't say right now, tell me everything about your childhood or anything like that. But think of it like pulling a thread, right? So the money problem is sometimes the tip of the iceberg, you know, just what they present with and then you start going into well why and how and how are you feeling in that moment who do you do this around and what do you think they're thinking and kind of chipping away at it from different angles is what helps you get to you know what this is really about you said something really interesting off camera that i'd like to repeat because i thought it was quite interesting where you said i have to be a blank canvas so that people can project their views on me.

1:12:49Can you just explain that again, please? Yeah. So you were asking me before about why do therapists not talk so much about themselves? And there's something called a blank screen. It's a concept in psychotherapy, in which basically we try to be as neutral as possible so that people can show us what they project on us. And that tells us something about them. So for example, you know, I have a bit of a mixed accent. People always ask me or often ask me, you know, where are you from? And I try not to answer that because that, when I ask people back, you know, where do you think I'm from? I'll have some people say, well, you know, you're so warm and giving, you must be from a Latin country or a Mediterranean country.

1:13:36And that tells me something about kind of the blueprint of relationships they carry. You know, they expect to find somebody who's warm and giving. And then I have other people who say, well, you must be maybe a Russian or, you know, Eastern European because you're kind of cold and stern and ungiving. And of course, I'm the same person to all my clients, but you know, what they expect to find in the other is different because we're all different and we all have an internal world that is shaped in different ways and expects something different. so it tells you something about them the way they view you yeah it's it's really interesting where are you from i was literally i wouldn't ask when i met you i was like what do you think italy what do you think i've got no idea which i don't know if that's very telling but honestly i would have absolutely no idea but that's good you've got to keep that secret though you can tell us off the air it's kind of cool that like it's hard to pin you know like that's interesting that You could be Middle Eastern, you could be European.

1:14:39Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not Japanese. No. And of course there's, you know, there's the external kind of stereotypes that give clues. But I think often there's a lot in when I ask people back, well, why do you think that? I think that's when you get the good insight. Yeah. Yeah. My partner's a therapist and she says that when people are talking about relationship stuff or like talking about things, they're like, you wouldn't understand. And she wants to be like, I literally went through exactly the same, like same thing as you, but she can't because you've got to like people, people judge you and they kind of not judge, but they, people make their own idea of you and like they get very biased very quickly.

1:15:16So they're going to assume, make assumptions that may or may or may not be right. So it must be how sometimes you might want to be like, that happened to me or I know exactly what you mean, but you're like, no, can't give anything away. Just got to be like a blank canvas the whole time. I'll give you an example. I have, I worked many years ago with a client who always felt misunderstood. He always felt like the different one, the odd one out. And he couldn't imagine that other people could have similar experiences to him. And he was convinced that I had no idea about the culture he comes from and what that culture is like and so on.

1:15:54and the interesting thing is that i grew up not even in the same village as him but in the same neighborhood but he could not possibly consider that oh i wasn't but you didn't die into telling no i never but you know it was always like well you know it's so what i would say back is it's so interesting to me that you'd think i'm yet another person that cannot possibly relate to you or understand you you know and left it there but yeah wow so to bring this back to the audience or to finish on something for the audience a lot of people watch my content because they want answers around money and i tend to focus on the practical of like put money here do this here and it will sort your life out do you have any kind of like something that people can take away to think about for their for the other side which is the emotional attachment to money well always ask yourself why you know why are you making the choices you're making what are you trying to say through money what are you hoping money will get you and are you maybe idealizing money too much and uh you know hoping it will resolve all your problems or is you know are you coming at it from um from a sense of feeling kind of conscious of its limitations but also hopeful about how it can enable happiness or some good experiences.

1:17:45encourage that because no one cares more about your money than you. I'm Damo. Banti. This was an episode of Making Money from Our Company Most. It was filmed and edited by the team at Flowspire, Jack and Ben. It was produced by Ruth Edwards and brought together by Will Stollerman. What about Ruth and Ruth is a dog? Yeah, shout out them too.

From the publisher

Vicky Reynal is a financial psychotherapist who deals with a wide range of issues, from overspending to money secrets and self-sabotage. Her book, Money on Your Mind looks at how we can develop a better relationship with money, because it pervades everything we do.

*Warning: We discuss some issues in the episode such as anorexia that some listeners might find it difficult listening to*

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