How I Max Out My ISA on an Average Salary

0:00If you've listened to the podcast for a while now, you'll know that in my early 20s, I had a lot of debt. Tens of thousands of pounds of the stuff. It wasn't really a great situation, but it did teach me a lot, and a lot of those lessons still shape how I think today. We've also had the pleasure of speaking to guests like Amy on the podcast, who pulled money out of an index fund during a market scare and then tried to stock pick to recover those losses. If you've had an experience with money that's changed the way that you think, we'd love to hear about it. There's a short form linked in the description, so if you're happy to share it, just fill that in.

0:31I was always terrible with money. You pay me£300, I could figure out a way to spend£400 of it. Obviously then, Covid happened. Went from a couple of drinks every single night, to a bottle of vodka every night, a litre of vodka every night, this way in the service. And then you're sort of like watching your bank account go down, and next thing you know, you're like, I've got£1 ,000 left and I've got no job. What am I going to do? Do you ever feel like you've started investing or trying to sort out your finances too late? It's like everyone else started years ago and you've missed the boat. If that's the case, this is definitely the episode for you.

1:05Dave is part of the Making Money audience. He reached out to us to share his story. I am not a high earner. Like most other people, I thought investing was just for rich people. I'd been investing for two years. And I had my first ever month where I made more from investing than I did from wages. I danced around my flat like an absolute buffoon. So your first ever podcast, David, today, but instantly my favourite ever guest because you bought three boxes of doughnuts. That's 12 doughnuts for two men. That's seven for doughnuts. You can't have a doughnut. I'm going to have a doughnut. And you also brought us some presents.

1:43I don't think they're for us. I don't think they're for us. I think they're for people listening to be honest, mate. Andrew Craig's book, live on less invest the rest why did you bring this book five copies five copies and what did you think about them um it this was the first book i ever read on investing uh i absolutely loved it i've read quite a few others and this one's still uh my favorite and it really gives you a good understanding right from the beginning like um basically taking it from a novice you know it's nothing about investing uh explains everything like what etfs are how to invest where to invest what sort of pitfalls to look for, what sort of fees to avoid.

2:22So, yeah, I just thought it'd be a nice little thing to do for people if they want to type into the comments, live on less, and then we'll just randomly give five of these books to five people who comment. Professionally even come with the what to type. That's so good. Are you sure you haven't done a podcast before? Yeah, that's so good. I mean, Andrew Craig's been on the podcast, so he's going to be very happy about that. I haven't read this. I read How to Own the World by Andrew Craig. Is this like a smooth read, easy read? very smooth and i mean i read this one then i read uh how to own the world um both of them brilliant books um and yeah because you know his company is called plain english finance and it is just plain english you know and it like i say it takes you from start to finish by the time i finished reading this i was uh i was just like yeah i'm ready to give this a go you know life-changing but then pretty much life-changing donuts and all i was gonna say damon's just like still eating so we'll get we'll sign we'll get you to sign a couple we'll sign one like random and it's just like potluck on who one who's synergy yeah we'll have a go but no that's so generous of you and it's really cool five people there so yeah leave in the comments live on less we'll also is there a way that we can do this for the audio listeners at all so they don't feel missed out ruth producer roof let's decide during this and we'll tell you at the end yeah we'll tell you at the end we'll think about that and we'll tell you at the end so that the people listening on audio don't miss out as well.

3:44Muno, thank you so much for that, and thanks for coming down today. Thank you. You're a chef, right? Yes, kitchen manager. Kitchen manager. Damien's going to love you forever now. Yeah, yeah. But what got you into being a chef? I suppose when I finished school, I didn't have any qualifications. I'm not an academic person at the time. so you know nuclear scientist wasn't really an option for me and he was talking to a mate of mine he was just you know we were having a conversation one day he's like what do you want to do and I spent years like working for my dad working in garages fixing cars so it's pretty much I can guarantee you I don't want to go and work in a garage you know and he says well I'm thinking about going to be a chef and I was like well I like cooking I like food I thought you know It'll be a job that's always going to be around.

4:35It'll be something I can always fall back on if I needed it. 30 years later, I'm still doing it. It's a proper graft as well. Yeah. It's not an easy job being a chef. It's long hours. Long hours. In the summer, it gets quite difficult in the kitchen. It gets really hot, but you get used to it. I think it's just one of those. I've done it for so long now. I actually enjoy it. I actually quite enjoy going to work. But yeah, it's not an easy job now. Now, my stepbrother did it for like three weeks and gave up and was like, they're crazy. That's not what they do. All they do is cook. We are crazy.

5:11Yeah, but I worked in the kitchen as one of my first jobs as a pot washer. So I worked with the chefs and honestly, some of the best times of my life. There's just so much banter in there and it's always a good love. It's savage. Yeah, it is. It really is. As long as you've got a good team with you. I've spent so much time walking into work and before I know it, I'm crying in laughter and 12 hours have gone and I'm at the end of my shift and I'm cleaning down. You know, it does make for an interesting day at work some days. What was, I don't know if you can remember, but what was money like growing up?

5:42For me in the family, there was never very much of it. You know, my parents both worked, raising two kids. And times were pretty tough, especially in like the 80s and stuff like that. got a bit better during the 90s but you know there was no there was no holidays in spain we were lucky if we're going to port madoc you know for a couple of days in wales that was about it really um i think you know me and my sister leaving the house definitely helped you know and the kids finally bugger off the parents can enjoy themselves a little bit more but yeah we certainly weren't a rich family by any means so it's you and your sister yeah it's all right yeah And you said you weren't very good at school or academic.

6:26So what was that like? I'm dyslexic. Dad didn't really get diagnosed until I was about 12, 13. So I was always classified as being the stupid kid. The joys of the 1980s were not great in the educational system. So when I left school, like I said, I didn't have one GCSE. I could barely read. I had to teach myself how to read, basically. by turning the volume down on the TV and leaving the subtitles on. That's how I taught myself how to read. So, yeah, it was certainly a struggle. Like trying to find work when you walk in and go, oh, what did you do at school? Well, I didn't. You know, it wasn't always that easy.

7:09But, you know, in the kitchens, I never really seemed to care as long as you could read the checks. Yeah. How did that make you feel like at school? Did you feel that you were left behind? Other people did you not really notice at the time because you were quite young? certainly well i mean to begin with i didn't really notice here when you go into the senior years and you really see how far you're falling behind then then yeah that becomes quite noticeable it's once they put you into sets and stuff you can't unlike you know the exams you do there's a big split isn't there massively and they could never i think one of the reasons why they're testing me for dyslexia because they couldn't understand why i was always in the top group for maths the top group for science but then everything else i did okay at geography then everything else I was in the bottom group, you know, because English and literature, not a chance.

7:57RE, I'm atheist, I'm not interested in learning about that, so I just didn't do the work. I wasn't a very sporty kid, so I didn't ever do really well in PE and stuff like that. But you put me in maths and I could exit, you know, it was easy to me. And it just turns out that that's part of the dyslexia. living with a dyslexia at school as let's say i put an english exam in front of your piece of text what what happens you know what are the symptoms from your lived experience of that well um normally what happens is you open up the the exam paper um you try and start to to read through some of it you have to read every question a couple of times um it just slows you down more than anything else you know um once i got diagnosed used to say oh you can have like extra time and stuff with the questions and and whatnot but i think by that point because we're going through like primary school being told by the teachers that you're stupid um and then going in by the time we got to secondary school i just lost interest with a lot of it that's what i just i like i like science i like maths i'll just stick to those subjects everything else i'm just like i just turned up and didn't do the work.

9:07Did you believe them? Yeah. You believed that you were stupid? Yeah, at the time. It's crazy how much impact teachers have on your life. The bad ones, yeah. Yeah, and the good ones. The good ones can really change. If they believe in you and you feel it, they can really turn your life around as well. Do you feel better now about yourself? Well, yeah, I mean, no. So, you know, I read 10, 15 non-fiction books a year. I spent hours educating myself on different subjects. I've taught myself how to invest. I'm doing quite well at it. So clearly I'm not as stupid as what they thought. Where did that proactive drive come from?

9:52I mean, you said you turn on the subtitles and taught yourself how to read. A lot of kids would be like, well, reading's not for me. I don't need that in the world. And then teaching yourself to invest in reading all these books. What kind of change? Has that always been inside you or did something change and make you say, I want to read more books, I want to learn? I'm just really, really stubborn. So if someone tells me I can't do something, then I'll find a way to, if I want to do it, I'll find a way to do it. I think it's amazing because a lot of people will just accept that and then they write themselves off, essentially.

10:23It's so awful to tell a kid that they're stupid. Or make you feel stupid, even if they don't explicitly say it. when there's so many things that are different skills that involve completely different skill sets like being a mechanic right if you break down in the desert you got einstein and a mechanic there who's the smartest guy yeah i mean it's the guy who can fix the car and if you're on a desert island and there's some food and no one has to cook the chef is the most important person because like if you eat that you're gonna get food poisoning let me cook it for you so it depends on what what aspect of life you're what situation exactly you know it and i think that's the one Some of the better things about the educational system now is at least the training has been given to the teachers to actually spot the differences in children and allow them to excel based on their own special talents and stuff.

11:10Rather than just going, oh, because you can't do X, Y, and Z that's on this piece of paper that says you should be able to do it, you're clearly never going to succeed in life. Whereas I think the training now for teachers has become a hell of a lot better. But, you know, it's just 40 years ago. It's the Simon's Times of what it was like 40 years ago. Yeah, some of the dumbest people I've ever met got straight A's. Yeah, and some of the people who failed are some of the most intelligent people you ever met. Yeah, 100%. When was the shift of, you know, you believe in that, I am stupid, to actually know I can do what I want, I'm stubborn?

11:44You know, when did you kind of flip that narrative? Probably say it was my early 20s. I did a course on business. It was a free course run by a company called Rathbone. And it was just for people who were entrepreneurial, who wanted to go off and maybe start their own business. So it was a free three-month course. I thought, why not? And I ended up getting a hell of a lot out of it. I think that's probably what sparked me being interested in business, full stop. And the I can learn. Yeah. You know, I can do a thing and like get to the end of it. Yeah. I mean, slightly different, right? But I went to university.

12:30I was always someone that was just good at like school without really trying in earlier school. So I just thought I could just shop to an exam and I'll be all right. I'll blag it. You know, and I went to uni and that does not happen. You know, kind of get found out at that point because you've got to do the work. but I just never wanted to study and now I spend all day every day studying to make content for people but I love it and it's kind of like sometimes you've got to discover education at the right point in your life haven't you it's like absolutely I was too young for it almost I mean I went to uni when I was 30 you know and for a guy who left school with no qualifications to actually get into uni I thought was absolutely amazing I did a degree in business and I very quickly realised that this wasn't for me, you know, like trying to be bothered to Harvard reference anything at the end of it.

13:22I was just like, this is just a complete waste of time. We're not in America. This is what Harvard got to do with this kind of thing. But it did give me one of the most important lessons. I'm still paying it off, you know, gradually as well. But it did give me one of the most important lessons because all university technically is is a massive reading list. So if you want to learn something, just go and read a book. Facts. If you don't need, if you don't particularly care about having the qualification, then just go and read the books. Yeah. The one thing that university taught me, which I carry with me now, is that academic papers are a thing and that they exist and that they're good.

13:55And now I just carry that into the content. So it cost me 20, 30 grand to realise that academic papers exist. It's an expensive lesson, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. T's still paying his as well. So, yeah. Well, he's not paying it. Oh, yeah. I'll get around to it. I defaulted on my investment. That's a story for another day. Well, you know, they've got enough money. They don't need any money. That's what I think. They'll be all right. Yeah. So if we'd met you five years ago, where were you at financially then? Five years ago. So that would have been just outside of COVID. Well, maybe before COVID. Let's go before then.

14:28Before COVID, I was okay. I had a bit of money saved up. I was working in Aylesbury at the time, living above a pub. Well, I wasn't investing at the time. I did have a few thousand in the bank. um but you know before that um i was always terrible with money all my life i was terrible with money you paying me 300 pound i could figure out a way to spend 400 pound of it you know every time and it wasn't until i really got to late 30s when i was actually like well you know everything else it's everything's become a little bit boring now i've been to all the concerts i've been to all the festivals uh which i love doing but you know it's only so many times you can see the same band before you're like well i know nothing to do with that anymore um i've never really been into traveling or anything so i was like well i better start settling down and saving a bit and putting a bit of money away but then obviously then covid happened what happened then uh so i was living in living above a pub um so i was my partner at the time living in a one-bedroom studio flat um i mean basically locked away all that time was certainly difficult i think like most people we uh basically turned to alcohol in order to to get through it um which went from a couple of drinks every single night to a bottle of vodka every night to a litre of vodka every night this way in the service and that had carried on for months and then we came out of it and we thought, oh this is going to be wonderful the world's going to get back to normal and we went back into lockdown again and the drinking just carried on and then went into the third because we had that little mini circuit breaker they called it and went into the third lockdown in the winter and then everything just got out of control at that point because there was nothing else to do You know, I'd completed Netflix.

16:29There was nothing else on Netflix I wanted to watch. I played every game that I got in my Steam library. There was nothing left for us to do but drink and try and just get through another night of staring at the same four walls. You know, you wake up in the morning, cook a bit of food, try and do something with the day. You know, it comes till like six o 'clock at night, what do you want to do? Might as well crack the bottle open. We were, honestly, I remember we were cracking bottles of wine open at like 11am because like the only thing you could do was go to aldi do you know i mean and it was like well let's just go get a bottle of wine let's get out the house and go to park and then you're drinking and yeah i drank for two three weeks and then that's when i started the channel because it was kind of like am i just going to drink this whole period or am i going to do something but i think you're not alone in that a lot of people developed to like drank a lot throughout that period yeah and i think i've always been a pretty big drinker anyway always like going out, going to pubs, going to concerts and stuff like that.

17:30So then when it was a case of, well, now I'm getting 80 % of my wages, I've got nothing to do, it just sort of took over. Then at the end of COVID, we moved jobs. I went along with my gaffer, he got another job. He wanted me to go with him, and that didn't work out. So I ended up getting made redundant three months later. And then it was like, okay, now what do I do? I had to move back to Wolverhampton. Got a job when I was up there, which turned out to be horrible. Did three months and then basically cancelled my trial. Didn't want to carry on working there. And then sort of slipped into a bit of depression for a couple of months.

18:13Carried on drinking, of course. Nothing else. That just became the norm. And then you're sort of like watching your bank account go down and go down. And next thing you know, you're like, I've got£1 ,000 left and I've got no job. What am I going to do? I was lucky. I contacted my old area manager from Green King, and he got me a job down in Maidenhead. And I was just like, yeah, this has got to change.

18:40You've gone on a course of self-destruction. If you don't sort this out now and start rebuilding your life a little bit, then, you know, you carried on drinking like that. You'd be dead in 10 years. you know there's no way it could have carried it on but yeah so like i moved down to maidenhead um rebuilt an emergency fund didn't know i was doing that at the time didn't know what emergency fund was um and that's when uh i accidentally started investing to main i know you've been setting up your business recently so how's that been going pretty cool t unlimited is out and about um one thing i have found i was looking for a bank account and a lot of the big players in the game they don't they're not uh covered by the financial services compensation scheme so a little bit worrying because i wanted my money to be safe so i think i'm gonna go with tide because they cover up to 120 000 pounds it's a little bit worrying to me that you think you're ever going to have 120 grand i use tides instant saver account because i can earn interest on the money in my business account that i don't need day to day With a Tide Instant Saver account, you can get up to 4 % AER variable.

19:52Plus you'll get£100 cash back if you deposit£5 ,000 into your account in the first 30 days. If you want to try it out, you can use the code MAKINGMONEY, or one word, or just use the QR code that's on screen. We've also left a link in the description where you can find the terms as well. Variable rate is correct as of the 15th of January, 2026. So T, tell me the riskiest thing you've ever done. Mate, the cameras are rolling. I can't do that. You're trying to get me cancelled. I mean, most of my risky things were probably in my teenage years. But one thing I could say about finance risks, definitely invested in stocks with zero research, just because my friend told me to, his research was, trust me, it didn't go well.

20:31Wow. So clearly risk affects you in both your personal and business life. And that's why we're really happy today to be partnering with Vanta. They automate a lot of risk processes and help you see the risks in a centralized platform so you know what really needs your attention. Besides risk, the main thing Vanta does is automate compliance with security protocols that you need if you want to do business with larger companies or grow internationally. This is stuff like GDPR, HIPAA, ISO 27001 and SOC2. The beauty of Vanta is they make it easy to prove you're compliant with these standards, saving up to 90 % of the time it takes and on average half a million dollars.

21:06You can get started at vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description. For people who've, maybe not a similar situation, but people who they're like, my life is not going right. I need to sort it out or I'll be dead in 10 years or I'm going to be broke. What was it that made you say, I'm going to start investing rather than a lot of people be like, well, just let me get another bottle. How did you snap out of that? What made you think? Let me start investing. I've sort of pulled myself. I was still, you know, I still drink now. I still enjoy the drink. But, you know, certainly don't drink the way that I used to.

21:42but I think what really changed was I got myself sorted I got myself a few thousand pounds set up in the bank and it was random just one day I had a beep on my phone it was Nat West and just going we've just started stocks and shares ICD you want to apply I was just like well I know shares are the way forward like most other people I thought investing was just for rich people you know because of the lack of education out there but i thought yeah i'm gonna um i don't mind investing my spare 50 quid a week to see what happens but uh but yeah i mean didn't really know what i was doing like it comes up with like the risk profile do you want super cautious cautious medium bit of risk or high risk i was just like i'll have a bit of cautious you know i don't want to be the bottom one no one wants to be that guy no one's picking high risk either at the same time you're thinking well yeah high risk that's not for me but what you don't realize is that high risk just means 100 exposure to equities yeah you know if it was actually explained to me that way you probably think like oh it's it's like you know base jumping or whatever it's like the worst possible high risk is you think you're gambling yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah and which is not what i've never been a gambler no so that's definitely what i would not have wanted to do but then i read this book and then I realised what high risk actually was the first thing I did was I changed it to maximum risk but yeah I mean that was really the thing that got me interested in it.

23:18I would say that then I had a meeting with my manager about progressing and he sort of fobbed me off at the time and that was where I was like well the exact words that we used was just train yourself you know and and you know why why should i bother investing any time at the time he was my bdm at the time why should we bother investing any time into you he's how it felt to me so i was like okay well i'll just i will train myself but it just won't be running a pub it'll be in something different i was i've always been interested in business and investing just a great way of saying it because you're like investing in yourself exactly like you're literally through like the active investing so then it was when i went right amazon type in investing hit enter and the first book that came up was live on less so i just bought that read it i was like okay now i know and you think that gave you like a good foundation to start investing yeah and it also got me interested in the subject like i've read like 10 15 books on the subject now yeah and i probably would not have started if it wasn't for this one the um you said at the start of all of that i And new shares were the way to go.

24:28How did you know that? Well, you've only got to look at what was going on with NVIDIA and it was all over the news, the immense climb that that company was on and what was happening with the Magnificent Seven. Not that it really gets spoken about enough on the news. But you just kind of had it in the peripherals of your life. And I knew from studying business. I knew that when you buy a share, you become a part owner. Yes. whether it be just you know one millionth of an owner depending on how many shares there are obviously but you still you still own that little bit of the business and then you you basically profit from the from the outgoings of what that business is making so you know whether it be through a dividend or share price appreciation you're going to get that little bit of reward from that business like most people I was just like yeah but what if the business doesn't do well you know what if it becomes like another um canon or you know another company that you know ericsson stuff like that that have had their peak and now where are they now just in the trough somewhere every business on a long enough timeline is going to do that exactly yeah and that's when i found out about you know the wonderful thing that is index investing i was just like that's it i'm definitely sold now i never knew you could just buy the whole of the s &p 500 or buy a global index um you know once i found out that i was just like that's where my money's going no worries where did you find that out in the book because my i'm asked because my friend rufus i was just talking to him the other day and he owns like a film production it's called the production fixes filming kind of what our guys do here uh filming episodes uh documentaries he earns good money and he says oh i don't earn enough to start investing i've bought i've got some amazon shares some Nvidia shares some Netflix shares and some water company but like I don't have enough to invest in a global index and I'm like you do know that what you're doing is more risky than just investing in a global index he's like oh yeah but I can only put like a hundred pounds a few hundred a month I should probably wait till I've got a big bag and I'm like you can put in two pounds a month just start you can literally do with one people think oh if I buy Amazon shares it's safer than buying a global index I'm like it's not so you are buying Amazon shares when you buy a global index exactly so I explain that to so I'm glad that this book actually kind of put you on the right path because i think like i started you just pick random stocks that you know what i take from your story is like it's just like the littlest nudge at the right time can just change someone's life um the regulators often kind of want to put messages everywhere that are like this is risky this is something to be scared of but just nat west going oh do you want to stock some shares ice and you're like in that moment you're just at the right time you're like yeah okay you know And that's life-changing.

27:07Exactly. One interview, one meeting with a manager, and you didn't like the outcome. And you suddenly think to yourself, well, nuts to it, I'm going to do something else. So just want that one little nudge in the right direction. And it can change things around. I'd never thought a couple of years later I'd be sitting there and everything's going a bit mental in the world at the moment. I was looking at my account on Sunday, I mean, I was up like 31 % in like nearly two years. I never thought I'd see those sort of gains in my entire life. It's mental. No, you know, and you're still doing the same job, you're there, but you've got this other thing, this other you almost, just working away in the background.

27:52Yeah. Like from your past activity that you've put to work and 24-7, it's amazing. Yeah. And when you start seeing something, I mean, after a couple of years, like October. So I've been, at that point, I've been investing for two years and I had my first ever month where I made more from investing than I did from wages. Wow. How did that feel? I danced around my flat like an absolute buffoon. I embarrassed, there was no one there but I would have embarrassed myself no problem whatsoever. You've only been doing it two years? Only been doing it two years. It was 300 and something pound more than I picked up in my wages that month.

28:29Are you prepared for a bad time. Yeah. You know that. Well, Trump's already given us the signs of what one was like when he introduced the tariffs. Yes. And recently, at the time of recording this with the Iran stuff, we've had a double wobble. Yeah, yeah. But one of the things with reading this book and reading How to Own the World, it prepares you for a crash as best as anyone can prepare you for a crash. So when the tariffs got introduced and I watched my portfolio dropped by like 11 % in a week. I just invested more. Yeah. And I chucked another£2 ,000 in my cash savings. And I was just like, it was hard to do.

29:13It was hard to do. It wouldn't be hard for me now, I'd definitely do it again. Because you saw it there. The first time that you do it and you look, everything's going in the red and everything's just going down. And then it went back up again and then it went back down again. and I'm like, now's a really good time to put a bit more money in. And I pretty much hit the bottom, which was a nice bit of luck. Yeah, yeah. I think the key thing, the big difference is if it happens for a few years. We've been quite fortunate, touch wood, in the sense of the recoveries have been rapid in recent memory, especially since COVID.

29:45So if we see something that's like a two, three-year drawdown, that tests everybody's mettle, even people like me. That is not a nice feeling. but if you've got that in your head of I'm just buying the same thing for cheaper than I did yesterday and I still don't need it for another five or ten years. And I think if you just realise that by dollar cost averaging in every single month, no matter what the market's doing, you know, you are going to be picking up these things on sale. I'm only hitting it because you said you didn't want him to hit the buzzer. You're dropping dollar cost averaging on us.

30:15I'm not going to get a buzzer in. Yeah, no, we know what it is. But can you explain what dollar cost averaging is for our newbies? Basically, whether or not it's every week, every month, or whatever, as long as you keep buying the same every single time, whether or not it's going up or whether or not it's going down, you are going to be basically spread over time. You're going to get the best result because you're going to be buying at highs, but you're also going to be buying at lows. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, nice. World War One Investing, do you remember your first ever investment? Well, the first one was with the bank.

30:48because the first thing that I brought was the Vanguard Global Index. Oh, wow. You started to know. By yourself? Yeah. You mean when you'd come away from NatWest? Yeah. So I was still with NatWest, but I wasn't happy with them. So what happened was I'd read the book now. I think I was halfway through Own the World. I was randomly in Maidenhead Town Centre, took it into a Big Mac, and I'm looking at my bank, which is over the road, and I was like, I want to go and ask them because I want to know where my money is. I thought, is it in the S &P 500? Is it in the FTSE? Have they got it in? You know, just where is it?

31:23You know? So I walked in and asked the person behind the counter. I was just like, could you just tell me what my money's invested in? They're like, oh, no, we can't do that. I was like, what do you mean you can't do that? That's literally your job. I was just like, oh, no, we have another company that handles the investments. I was like, but you can't tell me what I'm actually investing. Like, no. I was like, okay, well, you know, I've been learning about fees. Can you tell me what the fees are? oh no I don't know the answer to that either and I was just like yeah this isn't for me so that's when I opened up it was my 24th birthday my birthday present was opening up a a cake with Vanguard and I said I'd have bought£1 ,000 worth of the Vanguard Global Index you are not dumb David sitting there opposite that NatWest to go and ask those questions mate and then to take that action is...

32:18A couple of weeks later, because they'd realised I shut my account down and I was moving all this money over. We were trading 212 then. I was moving all this money into trading 212 and I think I was just depositing a bit of cash. And they were like, would you like a financial health check? I went, this should be a giggle. I was like, all right then. So, because he sits in the cubicle with this guy and he was just like, I see that you've shut this account down. I was like, yeah, I wasn't happy with the service and I've learnt quite a bit about investing now and I've took a different route and this is what I'm investing in and these are the books that I'm reading and, you know, I think I was on Rich Dad, Poor Dad by then or something like that.