How parents raise bad investors

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0:34After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 a quarter on the subscription, which is exclusive to Making Money listeners. And that's moneyweek.com forward slash money. But there's a link in the description if you just want to click that. Even when they're two, three, four, five, kids are starting to grasp the concept of money and that it can be used to buy things. Adults who have had financial education as a child are 40 % more likely to be in employment. They're far more likely to have a savings pot behind them. Louise Hill is the co-founder and CEO of GoHenry, a financial education app that helps kids and teens manage their money.

1:13Whenever anybody says, what's the one thing I can do to help my kids learn about money? It is give them regular pocket money. I'm not paying them to tidy their room. Do you know what I mean? There's certain jobs where if he's like, I want extra money, I'd be like, okay, let's come build a shed.

1:35I got my phone so I might play an audio clip in a bit it's on silent but yeah I might play play an audio we'll look forward to that it's it's my son talking about his Go Henry card oh okay yeah because we've got two yeah yeah for years as well so yeah we can have a talk about that and their feelings and the mischief that he gets up to with his card and the branding on the card. Yes, yes. Yes, at one point in time I used to, not to the kids, refer to it as track my teenagers. Because when they were kind of 15, 16 and, you know, out and about, I didn't want to be that helicopter parent of, you know, have they actually gone to the cinema?

2:18Have they actually, I don't know, you know, are they in Southampton or have they gone somewhere completely different? Little ping on the phone, see that they've bought cinema tickets. it's like okay good that tells you more about what they're doing than what they tell you yeah well entirely when they're yeah when they're teenagers yeah yeah well we want to have a conversation around preparing kids for adulthood and relinquishing you know throwing them out the nest and all of that stuff so hopefully you've got some insights there as well both from the data perspective and as a parent yeah yeah we'll try and bring our stuff because i've got two year olds so we've got like the whole kids range two nine eleven to twenty so yeah we're covered yeah yeah he likes he likes a bit of money as well doesn't he he's got a um what do you call it uh piggy bank right anytime he sees cash but he just goes to my wallet sometimes and takes out cash you see in the coffee shop when we get the cash out he's like money and everyone in the coffee shops laughing he's been doing that since he was like since he could talk he's just he'd love money so yeah but then you see how they also kind of don't get it in terms of i've got no money he's like yeah but you've got your phone you know and they think that the phone is like this infinite source of money or that it's not the same i mean it's like a degree a level of separation away from the notes well yeah it's all about yeah it's that challenge of how do you make digital money tangible no i mean i remember my son long time ago now um not long after i got divorced actually and there was not much money around and uh he was asking for some fancy pair of football boots because he's always played football.

3:49And I said, I can't afford it. I just can't afford it, McGinnsey. Stop asking. And bless him, he said, well, go and get some from the machine. And I can remember thinking at the time, he has no concept, does he? And then thinking, well, no, of course he's got no concept, that the money has to come from somewhere, that it has to be mine, otherwise I can't take it out of the machine if it's not in the bank. So you started it, I think what might be useful is, Can you explain what GoHenry is to people that haven't heard? There's a lot of people that don't have kids, so they might not be exposed. And then could we talk about why you started it?

4:24Right. What's GoHenry? So what is GoHenry? It is a debit card and financial education app for kids, teaching kids to learn about earning, saving, spending, investing, all of the life skills that they need around money. Started it 13 years ago. So we launched to the public in the UK back in November 2012.

4:54And where did the idea come from to answer that question? A real life parenting challenge that I was having. My kids were probably seven and nine or maybe eight and ten. And they'd both been bought the tiny little square iPods for a Christmas present. and kind of without thinking, I'd given them the login to my iTunes account, which had my credit card attached to it. And literally, they were having a great time downloading money without... Money? Downloading music, yeah, without a care in the world, without any concept that that was spending money. And as a parent, I was trying to figure out how do I get that connection across to them every time they click that button, they're spending money.

5:46and I did all sorts of things so some of this kind of gives away a little bit of my character I think in those days iTunes used to send you a email with an invoice attached for every single download so I started printing those out putting them on the fridge door with a magnet and then come pocket money day which in our house was Saturday morning when the kids were stood there with their hands out i would literally say to one of them you know i'd normally give you five pounds today but here's what you've spent on itunes you owe me 30 quid your mind is 700 sometimes it really was that but you know usually i mean they'd got 80p or they got 50p left and of course sad little face in front of me and i've joked many times that mom's you know mom's the bad guy again And I was joking with other parents about it and sort of telling them this tale because I thought I must be missing something.

6:43It's like, what else? There must be something out there that helps parents deal with this. And all these stories came out about kids who were buying things on eBay, kids who were running up bills on their gaming platforms, buying hair scrunchies for their little pony online, all kinds of things. but with no limits, using their parents' debit or credit cards and making big mistakes. You know,£600 gone,£2 ,000 gone. And what became immediately apparent was there didn't seem to be anything out there that let parents deal with it. And I guess what I realised was we'd effectively left kids behind. We were buying things online.

7:29We were transacting online. contactless cards had just arrived in the uk we were tapping with our cards but kids we were still giving them cash and yet they were already interacting with digital money they were they were interacting online and there was nothing there to help parents manage that and that that was fundamentally that was the idea for go henry it was how do we build something that helps parents teach their kids about money um and teaches them to use it the way that all of us as adults were using it and was there nothing like with the traditional banks not offering no i remember when i used to have to go in with like a little book and they would like stamp it and i remember getting my first but it was barclays and yeah you had to go with a little check paying in book yeah i used to have a post office book my nana used to take me in every every week when she when i went down to buy bread with her at the weekend.

8:26And yeah, that was still pretty much what was operating with the high street banks. Most of them were offering what they called a cash card for 11, 12 year olds, which was literally a card that would allow a child to go to an ATM and down, you know, take some money out, some cash out, nothing more than that. They couldn't use it to pay for things um and so and yet it was obvious that kids much younger than 11 or 12 were already using online services yeah and they're also their attitudes towards money form quite young so you you kind of missed the boat right completely yeah i mean there is a there's a big piece of research by cambridge university that if you speak to pretty much anybody in the field of money and financial education, they will tell you about this study.

9:23It showed overwhelming proof that financial habits start to be set from the age of seven. And a lot of parents are really surprised by that. You can imagine I've trotted out that piece of information many times over the last 13 years. Lots of parents are surprised by that. But actually, when you then talk to those parents and talk to them about how their kids react to money, even when they're two, three, four, five, kids are starting to grasp the concept of money and that it can be used to buy things, that it's a trading tool. And those habits, the way that money is talked about in the household, whether there is a sense of fear or a sense of lack of control or a sense of positivity around it, all of those things influence how that child will grow up thinking about money and if those habits are starting to be formed at seven the earlier you can start talking to your kids um doing some practical things around teaching them about money then the better we've talked about this before on the podcast like money habits are formed when you're very young and i was talking to my friend about go henry he said he made you i thought of it because you mentioned that you said we didn't have money he said he told his kids we don't have much money at the time and as they've grown older now they're like very um cautious with their money they always want like a safety blanket so it does affect how you perceive money when do you think the best time to start talking to kids about money is I genuinely think the earlier the better I really do the the key thing is that it's age appropriate so you're not going to talk to a four-year-old about compound interest clearly but if you're talking to them about choices you make when you're buying things or if you take a seven or eight year old, you might be in the supermarket and one of the really easy conversations to have is to look at the price of the big brand baked beans and then the supermarket owned brand baked beans and look at the difference in price and sometimes turn it into a game.

11:34You know, you can turn a lot of these things into a game with the children. Let's see how much money we can save today and let them look at the prices, look at the difference, decide to take the cheaper one and add up how much have we saved today. Maybe then you can give that to them to put in their savings pot. But there's all kinds of ways you can talk to kids about money in an engaging way that's learning by doing, which is something I certainly talk about an awful lot because I think it's not just theory, it has to be practice as well. How many kids do you have on the app now? How many accounts?

12:10Gosh, I think we're up to about, I think, 2.2 million kids have been learning about money with GoHenry. We were the first service in the world. I know that sounds mad, but we were in the world to offer this sort of service to parents and kids. What you've done really well, I'm going to bring my son into this, is you've allowed customisation of the card. I'm going to play a clip of my son talking about his. I don't know if you know that you can do this, but... Hold on one second. So I asked him... What are we going to find out? I asked him about his card. Yeah. If I play it here, will it play? Here.

12:49Into the mic. How do I make it go speaker? I think it would just well, won't it? Let's see what he says, and then I'll explain if you don't understand. Who's it again? Yeah, Bob. Do you want to... Oh, you can choose whatever animation thing you want. What the name is. Yep. Actually, Gojo Mama. what else uh gody's nuts gody's nuts so basically you know you can put the name yeah yeah so he like gets they come through the post all the time i was like why has he got gody's nuts on it and he started going gody's nuts on it and he started laughing at me yeah so he loves that like i don't know how rude they can take it but these nuts seems to pass your filters yes and there are filters yeah yeah yeah you know you've only got to think about the demographic that are choosing the names yeah you know you imagine the uh creativity of an 11 year old boy yeah yeah you see them do you know how we built some of the filters um we actually gave our customer support team um the task to come up with every rude word they could possibly think of um they were very creative i can imagine and because it's got the go that gives like a bit of creative license you can just put something a sequence off the back of that i think the uh the data point is interesting because what you've got is millions of data points around how children spend and i don't think anyone will have ever collected that kind of data obviously you can see all the creative ways that they try and swear on the front of their cards yes but what other interesting insights have you pulled from millions of kids gosh there's some some incredible um information in there and i think probably first thing i should say is we don't sell that data to anybody we don't share that data with anybody we do produce what we call youth economy reports that look at how children are behaving with money and the the actions they're taking and the way that that's shifting over the years i said we've been we've been going 13 years now so you know how kids how a 12 year old was using money seven years ago is different to how a 12 year old is using money today and of course that's fascinating um things are shifting quickly um and the other thing we do is we i guess we we try and elevate the voice of children and teenagers so we produce kids eye view reports and that might be on anything anything that's going on in society we did a kids eye view of the cost of living crisis because of course when the the cost of living crisis hit the press as a phrase and we were all talking about it in terms of how that was affecting adults and families and jobs um kids pick up on these things so it was really interesting to look at how that was affecting kids too we did one fairly recently kids eye view of the property ladder fascinating you know there are a substantial number of kids using go henry cards who their savings pot or their savings account is saving up for a house does it say on the pot Yeah, yeah.

15:55So that's how you kind of get the data. You can see they can name the different pots and things. They can name the different pots. Yeah. Awesome. Yes. Last time we recorded, Tomei, and you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. And they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes. And yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive.

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18:21If you're a business that needs to prove security and compliance, visit Vanta.com forward slash making money to sign up for a completely free demo today. That's Vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. So yeah, all sorts of data points. One of the things that fascinates me and I'm really excited about, But I guess for the future, that's going to sound very grandiose, the future of this country, 37 % of kids using GoHenry, Gen Alpha kids, we were looking at Gen Alpha at that point in time, Gen Alpha kids using GoHenry have got a side hustle going on.

19:09So in other words, they're earning money from somebody other than mum and dad, parents. Yeah, exactly. And that might be trading clothes on Depop or Vinted. It might be, you can actually see buying in supplies and then presumably they're making things and selling things on Etsy because they've got money coming in from Etsy. um social media influencers um people earning money from gaming all all sorts of things but this concept of a side hustle really interesting at how that plays out as they go into adulthood and what that means for the workplace going forward what is gen alpha like what age range is that uh currently age 14 will be the oldest might have might have just tipped into age 15 but yeah and is that all the way down to that is that the current generation i've got a gen alpha baby have Have you got a general put at two?

20:03Yeah, two, right? I think it's... 14 till... Yeah, do you know what? I am less clear on the lower age limit. So we spoke to an anthropologist who said it's very fashionable to name a generation. If you can be the person who names them, you become very famous. So what's happening is generations are becoming smaller because people keep trying to name new ones. Then there's a chance to name the next one. Then they can be the person. The only generation that was ever meant to be one was the boomers because they were so big. But then we just named everything and everyone wants to, you know, but yeah.

20:31So maybe your little one is outside of the alphas. Yeah. The alphas are like, I call them, they're like the skibbities, aren't they? Like the skibbity rizzes and all that. Yeah, well, I think I might be too old to even know what that means. I just say it because it sounds good. It sounds like you're hearing your kids say it and you're like, oh, skibbity. I was going to say, so my kids are now 27 and 24, and sometimes there are things I say, and my son in particular, who's a 24-year-old, just looks at me and goes, mum. It's like I don't go there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where are they spending their money then?

21:04I mean, you've got such a broad range of kids, right? You've got young adults down to like children. But could you give us some insights about like the spending behaviour? Yeah, again, it's fascinating. There are some kind of gender stereotypical things. So if you look at gaming, very, very strongly weighted towards boys. Plenty of girls gaming, but it is still strongly weighted towards boys. I think in one of our youth economy reports we wrote the phrase that teenage girls are keeping the high street alive and well girls in particular and I do mean teenage girls 11 plus use it very much as a tool to socialize with so it's going out on the high street going to a coffee shop going to the cinema spending on the high street those sort of things and then I think what's really shifted in the last couple of years is the use of food delivery apps it's incredible to see i think it was 113 percent increase um 23 to 2024 in the amount of money that kids were spending on the deliveroos just eats etc wow is that post-pandemic almost post-pandemic yeah Yeah, maybe that kind of pushed it out.

22:28It's also, you know, I think it's showing what we see is kids making, and teenagers, making active decisions about the brands that they spend their money with. So there is really a consciousness about the fact that money gives you choices to put your money where you think a brand is sustainable. They're seeking out sustainable brands, ethical brands, moving away from some of the fast fashion and perceived as not so sustainable companies, not just in the fashion sphere. And then convenience. So I think that speaks to the Deliveroo's and Just Eat's. It's this kind of sense that it's really easy to get things quickly and make things happen quickly.

23:16and they lean into that and that's how they spend their money. Do you have data on saving, like between boys and girls, who saves more or different age groups? Yep. What's interesting is there isn't a big differential between girls and boys on saving. We should probably say we strongly encourage saving within the app. So if somebody's not using the savings pot or our high-interest savings account, we will gently nudge because one of the habits we really want to encourage is that when money arrives, so the concept that money has to come from somewhere, so maybe you have to earn it, but you also get your pocket money.

24:01When that money lands, you have a choice on what you do with it. So we encourage putting a little bit away into your savings. We make clear there's a choice to use your money for good so to donate a little bit to charity we're we've just about to reach 750 000 pounds donated by go henry kids to the nspcc over the last few years and that that's in micro donations so i think the average donation is is five six seven pence something like that that's amazing because where else can you give five p you know you can kind of aggregate the collective power of all those kids yeah absolutely they still get the lesson that it feels good to give and it's a nice thing to do and the partner is perfect because it it highlights them that they're probably pretty lucky and there's lots of kids out there that aren't i think so and and you know our aim is to help kids set healthy money habits that by dint of the word habit they take into adulthood because if they go into adulthood confident with money understanding that you know when they're eventually their salary comes in they can put a little bit away to save it they can put a little bit into an investment they can choose to donate to charity if that's what they'd like to do and then the rest is spent then that's fantastic that that will create a generation of money confident adults who are less likely to get themselves into financial difficulty are more likely to have savings that help them ride through the inevitable hiccups that life throws at you.

25:45So, you know, it makes a huge difference. Does it work? Because you've had some kids that have come out the end now, I'd imagine, and you can probably say, look at them. I don't know if you have that ability to follow them around or have case studies, but some of the kids that have been through the GoHenry system, how are they? Make me sound like a stalker, yeah. I wander around after them. You were the one who said that you follow your kids around. This is true. This is true. No, obviously, when they leave the GoHenry universe, we don't know necessarily. However, we have done a few pieces of research with them.

26:16And actually, one of the ones, lovely story, Henry. You might not know this, but the original Henry is the first child ever to use one of our cards. So when we launched, we were called Pocket Money, spelt with no vowels, so P-K-T. MNY. And we realized very quickly, that was a very stupid name for a digital company, because nobody could say it. Nobody could spell it. Nobody could spell it. People used to phone up and say, you know, can I speak to Louise Hill? I was like, oh, God, this was a bad idea. So we changed the name. And it was always going to be go something because I talk incessantly about having a go, you know, trying stuff, having a go, and learning by doing.

27:03So it was going to be go something. And it was almost chance. But one of the team who was flagging our beta test customers so that we could strip them out of reporting came over to the group where we were talking about what would the new name be. and she said, guess what the name was of the first child who ever used one of our cards? And it was, at the time, an 11-year-old boy called Henry who lived in Bristol. One of three brothers, they'd all got what were then pocket money cards, now go Henry cards. And, yeah, he now has a hoodie which says The Henry. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I kept introducing him, this is The Henry.

27:51The, this is him. Yeah, but last time we spoke to him, which was a few months ago now, he is a comms officer at Bristol University, all grown up, obviously, in his late 20s now. And yeah, he launched a piece of some content for us called Go Henry Grads, looking at how he uses money, how he thinks about money, how some of his peers and friends were using money and some of the differences. this well thankfully it wasn't my son otherwise you might have been called go these nuts so yeah but yeah lucky it wasn't him the first customer the investment piece i'd like to talk about that i'd like to talk about how you view investment and kind of like the products that you have there because i think you've made some interesting choices which like you know i agree with personally but how do you view the investment for kids like what products are available what are you what are they invested in if you if you have that like yeah yeah yeah um so i oh i'm gonna have to guess when we launched it i think about three years ago we launched a junior isa uh stocks and shares junior isa and yeah you said interested in some of the decisions we made um listeners will know in the uk there are two types of junior isa available just as there are two types of isa available, a cash version and a stocks and shares version.

29:16And from our perspective, when you look at the length of time that an investment is held, the longer the length of time that investment is held, the safer, and I'm going to put that word in inverted commas, the safer that investment is because it rides out any peaks and troughs in the market. And when you think about investing for a child in a junior ISA, if you're starting when they're born, or even if you're starting when they're five, six, you've got 13 years, 18 years for that investment to ride out all of the market ups and downs. It's not something that can be taken out again. So you've not, it's not like putting an adult putting money away in a stocks and shares ISA that they need out in four months, definitely because it's the deposit for their house, when what the market is doing at that point in time might affect the value of what they get out.

30:24It's a long-term investment. So we were very much of the opinion that we need to teach kids, we need to encourage parents to invest in stocks and shares, particularly when it's for a long-term period which a junior isa is and um by dint of that help parents teach their kids about investment as well so yeah we have a stocks and shares junior isa um initially it's been made available just to go henry customers um we've had fantastic take up of it we've got a big number of customers using it and what we would like to do is expand that further because at the moment what the product doesn't let parents do is well unless they show their kids it on the app they can show the kids how much money they've got in the junior ice they're saving for them but actually as a parent if you can talk to your kids about the fact that you're putting away money for their future again you're setting that seed in the child's mind that that's a good thing to do this is the responsible thing to do that you're in that as a parent you're literally investing in your child's future um and again that sets a great habit and mindset for the child to grow up with you mentioned obviously around food orders and the fact that they have this kind of instant thing that the investment piece is all about delayed gratification which i think is like a crucial money lesson you You know, the sacrifice of consumption today for the hope of greater consumption tomorrow is how my economics teacher defined investment.

32:02But it's that point of like, yeah, you spend your money and you get your burgers, but there's this bit here. And then in 10 years, they'll be like, oh, crap, that's done well. I've got more than I put in, hopefully. Yeah. What are the investments that they can buy within that? You know, what are the suite of funds? It is. Right now, it's a single diversified fund with BlackRock. Okay. So very, very simple. when we did the research around it that the it's very interesting when you look at the british public's appetite and knowledge of investing um you'll know we we've operated in the us since 2018 if you compare that to the american public's appetite for investing there is a substantial difference i think 50 of americans invest whereas in the uk it's much lower Only 6 % of adults have a stocks and shares ISA.

32:52Absolutely. Absolutely. So even if you look at ISAs where people are effectively saving, I think 70 % of ISAs are cash ISAs. That number might not be exactly right, but it's that kind of proportion. And in my head, that's a shame. That's a shame. In the UK, we're missing a trick. If we could get the public to understand that unless it is a time-limited investment, like the example I talked about, if you're investing long term, the best thing to do is start young, put a little bit away every week, squirrel it or every month, whatever works for you, squirrel it away and leave it there. diversified portfolio not buying single stocks and shares um not not playing around with with day trading that kind of thing but a safe balanced portfolio keep putting the money away let compound interest do its work it's insane how it can change you know over if you think a 20 year old to a 40-year-old, a 20-year period, or your child's junior ISA, 0 to 18, the difference that compound interest makes from the amount you've put in to the amount that is available at the end of it, that could fund your child's first car.

34:15It could fund a deposit on a flat. It could fund a very glamorous gap year. You know, big goals for people in life. We could be funding this. We should do the same. they should do the same with pensions and they should front load the pension responsibility to kids like wean out the state pension over a generation and put the money in a junior sip for kids at birth by government and then you know because like the you let you let compounding do the lifting the time yeah so by the by the time they're 60 there's a lot of money now you ought to enroll them at 18 or when they start working as well so yes but yeah i think i think that decision that you made is like one of the best the bravest business decisions because like you know i see other providers cash ises are infinitely more popular yeah if you have cash ises you will get more inflows trading 212 introduced a cash isa and it like trebled the size of their business in a few months because british people love cash ises whereas what you've done is go no it's not the right product yes so what we're going to do is try and educate our people and i do think that that's that's a good you've done a great thing there thank you i do you know what i i really appreciate you saying that one of one of the things we talk to um everyone in the company about is it's the customer's money first and our second and we you know we genuinely believe if we look after the customer's money that will ultimately drive um success for go henry it it's when you start putting the company's money first that you lose you're not doing the right thing we should be doing the right thing for our customers and yeah it was it was a it felt like a brave decision because we knew we would get fewer junior isis set up but i still fundamentally believe it's the right decision you'll have kids that invest when their parents don't i bet yeah and i bet over the long run the parents will be like oh maybe i should invest because well that's why i'm hoping the rub off I mean, we know from customers writing in, from parents writing in, that when kids start to save, it's amazing how often we will hear from a parent who says, I can't believe this.

36:32I've been watching my son save or my daughter save. I've started saving. I've never saved in my life before. It's, you know, that rub off effect is considerable. I got a junior, sir. Damo is my son's godfather so he puts money in every month well done one of the nice few nice things he does for me yeah it's me his son mate exactly he doesn't even do anything nice for me he just likes my son just just employ him yeah and then digs me out all the time but um I think I think it's amazing you guys like Damo said offer stocks and shares junior ISA do you have any plans of uh junior SIP because like you said the compounding does its thing so yeah I got my son to sip and i'm thinking if he in 60 70 years the compound is going to be crazy and i wish i had the junior sit when i was a kid so yeah uh i'm gonna not at the moment no um i am gonna say when my kids were young and uh the the what was it called what is it called child benefit the child benefit payment came in when when i got past the first few years ago henry when we didn't have two pence to rub together um and got to a point where i felt i could afford to i actually set up sips for both of my kids and um i used to put the child benefit money split it in half because you get a little bit more for the older one but split it in half and put it into um their sips and and frankly then forgot all about it um it got to a point where um i just had that money going in every month and it was only when the first one hit 18 and I got contacted by the sip company to say oh you know we're about to tell Isabella she's got x pounds in her sip oh yeah I better tell them about that yeah amazing what can we talk about fees on the the service so how do the fees work for the the actual card itself and that service the more like the banking like side and then what about the investment side the um we charge we have three tiers um in go henry so the the everyday tier is three pound 99 a month um the uh the next tier up is the plus tier it's 5.99 a month um only people with and that tier you get of a high interest savings account which pays out interest daily so that kids literally, once they've got 30, 40 pounds in there, literally every couple of days they'll get a little ping to say, another 2P interest has gone into your account.

39:14Again, trying to set those habits. And then we have the max tier, which you can have up to four kids on the max tier. They get the high interest savings account as well. And that's$9.99 a month. But as I said, that's for up to four kids. Okay. And then the investment stuff, is there like a fee for the junior? Is it just like a fund fee? BlackRock fund fee? And it's like a global portfolio? It is a global spread portfolio. Yeah. We literally decided to keep it super simple. We've had so many conversations over the last couple of years about do we release a green fund and do we release a female founder fund?

39:57They even suggested. I think they might have been trying to sell to the audience, me. But, you know, or a US tech giant fund. And our decision has been keep it simple. I think you make the right decision. I think you present choice and people get paralyzed. You're trying to convince people that don't invest to invest. Once you start introducing like female founder and big tech. And it's all like fund managers just want to sell things in vogue. They'll come back the next week and go, buy this AI fund. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's like the anthropologists. They're incentivized to move the units, you know, whereas you just go, no, no, like global, sensible.