How to close the £100k wealth gap

26:19work. There's all the basics, but I think men should learn more and women should learn more. I don't think it should be a transfer of wealth. If you look more broadly, we are seeing actually a transfer of wealth at the moment. Women are inheriting more money than before and they're also making more money from work. We're slowly seeing a shift where women will also have more money, which is going to be quite interesting to see in terms of how financial institutions react to that, how do they serve women, maybe differently. Maybe women want something else from their banks, from their financial advisors, their wealth managers.

26:57We really think women are going to have more money and how are they going to invest this money now is going to be also quite interesting. You think that it will benefit men as well? I think, I mean, hopefully it will benefit everyone. Having a more equal society that's more balance should benefit, I think, everyone. Everyone knows a woman as well. Everyone's got a daughter or a sister or a mother that they would like to, you know, surely everyone. And then for me, even like recently on maternity leave, like I really appreciated having my partner's salary coming in on. So it's going to be more money for the household.

27:30For maternity benefits. Yeah, exactly. Other than statutory pay. Yeah, exactly. I think it starts at like 100 or like 80 % and then it goes down after six months or something. So it does make a huge difference to the household when your partner's earning more as well. And the UK is desperate for productivity and growth. And if 50 % of your workforce are not at capacity, it's the easiest way to just get them working and incentivize them to work properly. Get them working and also promoting women within organizations. Like women-led businesses tend to have a better return on investment. So it's promoting these women and making sure you have enough senior leaders, women on boards, women at the top management is super important.

28:12As a business owner though yourself, can you understand, and most businesses in the UK are SMEs, right? They're small businesses. They're not all these mega corporations. Can you understand the conflict and the pressure on those businesses to promote women that then might leave the workforce for a year, two years? That's hard for them to shoulder that? Yeah, I think it's hard, but if you have excellent women in your team, you want to promote them, you want them to be the best they can and give them the best opportunity. and I know it's hard and there's so many things in business, you don't know, but men may leave also your business.

28:47So I think there's so many uncertainties around that. So I think it's trying to nurture your employees and women and especially mothers because they tend to be quite time poor. They will really give the best to your organization and that's what I've seen from my experience. I work with a lot of women who have children. They're like mega efficient, they're mega committed. so again you know that's a good investment especially if you look after them they're loyal because they appreciate the flexibility and stuff so they show up last time we recorded to me and you were having some real dramas with your accountant so how's that been going mate they're sacked so drama sorted um they're a big corporate firm um they didn't really reply to my emails very quickly like took a week or two at times um and they charged me way too much i mean i've got pretty simple taxes and yeah they were charging me thousands they saved me some money but yeah, I had to move on.

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31:43That's vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. With the women that you speak to then, are there any mistakes that you see them making when they approach investing? I think the first mistake is not starting today. So they're sort of delaying because they want to do more research. And I think one of the big barriers is choosing a platform, choosing an investment platform. They're in front of this, like, I think in the UK, we have, what, 25, 30, maybe more investment platforms. And they're like, which one do I choose? I don't know.

32:15You know, you postpone your decision. And I'm like, that's okay. You're not marrying this investment platform. It's actually really easy today. Because the ISO rules are even more flexible. Exactly. And you can change that. So, you know, just get started. Pick a platform. If you want to do some, you know, there's some nice platform, as you say, where you can invest almost nothing. You can round up your savings so you can do that. It's just a nice and fun way that's not probably not going to pay for your retirement, but that's a nice way to get started. You can decide, you know, do your budget, decide how much you want to put something you, you know, you can swap.

32:45Maybe you spend less on this or you go, you negotiate or you renegotiate your subscription. You can sell a few subscriptions. The money you gain, you put it on an investment account on a stock center and you can get started. It's also telling them, you've been working for a long time. You probably have a workplace pension. You probably have a few different workplace pensions from previous jobs. Can you start with that? Maybe you could consolidate them, but you already have money that's sitting there. It's already invested. Can you actually look at your risk profile? We talked a little bit about risk.

33:17I think your point about risk earlier, I think that's a big mistake of thinking, I don't want to take too much risk because I'm quite risk adverse. But actually, risk is more an opportunity. So I think reframing risk and telling them, you know, you're not going to use this money in your pension for another 30 years. You can take a lot more risk than, you know, the default fund you're in. So I think this risk and all the disclaimers around risk. Calling it risk is the wrong thing. Calling it risk is the wrong thing. Yeah, because risk in people's minds are life or death, right? Exactly. That's how you think about it.

33:46You don't think about it as potential upside and volatility. You know. So I think that's like a second mistake. So this one can be solved by really looking at understanding, you know, what you invest in and how you can build your portfolio. So I think, yeah, starting earlier and probably thinking about risk differently. This analysis paralysis, I see all the time. People take a month to decide the platform and then they're like, OK, now I've got to pick a fund. And that's another six months worth of decisions. And it's like just chuck the money in. It's not going to break it. You know, you can always change later down the line.

34:19Yeah. And what I've seen also is people who followed friends advice or followed the news and they jumped into an investing trend. So, I mean, we've heard like probably crypto. You've heard about that. I've lost, I'm familiar. I've lost, I've lost some money listening to friends and yeah, trusting friends. Now, yeah, you've got to do your - Ex-friends. Ex-friends. Enemies. And probably, probably do your research. If you, if you haven't investing any, invested any money and you just pick one crypto or one stock, that's probably not the right way to do it. So I would say if you want to do that, just invest 95 % into something that you think is like solid standard that follows the rules of diversification and long-term investing, and then have a bit of money to play if you can afford to lose it.

35:01And you may earn a lot of money, but you may lose everything, but at least you're aware of that. And I think if you've made these mistakes with investing, you may be like, oh, I've tried investing a few years ago. i've lost so much money but it's actually different it's not the same investing when we talk about you're speculating you're speculating gambling and you're on your trader and we've done a lot of podcast episodes around you know what is what is a trader versus a long-term investor don't follow the hype but i think it's really difficult to comprehend until you have actually made this mistake so it's talking to these people who can share and that's why we're telling them you know start very small make your mistakes very early with you know small amount of money you learn from your mistakes and we've all made a lot of mistakes i mean when i built my first portfolio i had just a handful of stocks trying to sell at the right time by the right time paid you know a lot of fees losing some money but i think until you actually experienced it and you have this you know skin in the game i think it's really hard to comprehend so if you start with a smaller portfolio you make your mistakes and then slowly you rebuild your you think a lot of people start like that i definitely started i was like oh this oil stock this one that one then you lose money and I literally didn't invest in stocks for like two years because I was like, well, I'm not good at investing.

36:12Bye. Like I just lost some money. I'm not doing that again. And I was like, I think I was in university in my first year. And then, yeah, a few years later I started again and like went with a bit more, a bit more knowledge. But do you think that puts off a lot of people? I think that puts off a lot of people. And when you, you look at some, some of the trading platforms and the social investing where you're like following stocks, we talk, you know, like Tesla and the headlines and people look at, you know, Elon Musk and they're like, I should be part of it or I shouldn't. I think they make their first investments.

36:40They're looking for a very quick return. They make an investment,£50. Two weeks later, they're like,£45. I'm just going to sell. That doesn't work. You told me I would make money with investing. It's really talking about this long-term, long-term. I think it's not a five-year's game. Unfortunately, it's like a 10-year's game. That's why we've been here long enough and people have I've followed us and stuff, but it's not just coming, giving a quick investment advice and leaving. It's for them to have this very long horizon. Yeah. I think the perfect analogy is like the gym and, you know, people can read all the theory in the world, but unless you get in there and start lifting some weights, you don't know what it feels like.

37:20You don't know what it's like. And you're not going to get ripped after a day. It takes time, takes years potentially. And people have that attitude with the gym. They think, okay, well, a lot of people want to get skinny real quick, don't know but yeah if you approach it the same with investing i've been investing now for over a decade and it's completely changed my life and i think that after 10 years you see some real gains you know that's when you start if you passively invest consistently and what's interesting is this analogy with the gym actually is people think you know i'm going to the gym i'm getting fitter i'm getting better but with investing it's actually don't touch your portfolio too often so you're investing you're buying you're selling you think you're getting better but actually probably you're not getting market returns.

38:01No, no. Having a more passive approach where you don't need to think of your portfolio and change your allocation and look at your investments all the time, some of the platforms can do that for you. As you say, you pick an index fund, a global index fund, and you just have a regular investment every month that goes into that. It's now super easy to do, but it's showing people that it's actually easy, that it works over the long term and you have to trust your patience and trust doing nothing with your investments. Yeah. I think Peter Lynch said it's not having the brain for it, it's the stomach.

38:35That's the most important organ in terms of investing because I can't give investment advice, but I could sit anyone down and in two minutes just say, do this, do that, and do that consistently every month for 30 years and that'll be okay. But can you ride that ride for 30 years? And I think that's why women probably make better investors because they have a better temperament. Men are more go, go, go, go, go, you know, they're more aggressive. They want to make a move. They just want to do stuff. Whereas women might be slightly more long-term focused. Maybe that's why the women make better investors in the data.

39:08I think, yeah, what we've seen in the research is women tend to be quite diligent. So they probably take a little bit more time to get started. But once they get started, I mean, if they work with an advisor, they tend to stay with the same advisor. They tend not to change their portfolio that often. So as you said, not react to market fluctuations, so maybe a little bit less emotions in their investing and the long term. So they align their investment portfolios with their goals very often and they have something in mind. They want to pay for their kids' education or they want money for their retirement and they will leave their portfolio grow until they actually reach their goals.

39:42One thing that was interesting in the briefing call that you did, you mentioned around how people treat their children and that we even treat children female like young girls differently to men like pocket money and things like this it's that embedded yeah it's that embedded i think when you look at financial habits they acquired from a super young age from three to seven years old so you may have had this conversation very openly with your family or sometimes you was just observing what your you know parents or people were taking care of you were doing with with money so So are your messages you receive like money super scarce and you may grow up with this mindset?

40:16And on pocket money, that's quite interesting that girls tend to receive less pocket money than boys. So again, you know, that's the parents, you know, starting this habit. But now what I see on conversations we've been having with some friends is that women tend to put more money into their girl spot now than boys to bridge the gap and to give them, you know, this head start in life. life, you can save for your child, you can put money into their pensions from child's pension. They're like, okay, just in case to bridge this motherhood penalty and everything we've talked about, I'm just going to give her a head start and put money into her pension.

40:56Again, having this conversation from a very young age is important. It's what you can do financially for your kids, but it's also teaching them how to manage money from a very young age. You can start really young with concepts such as delayed gratification and maybe budgeting, shopping lists, some things that are quite small. They will grow up with great money habits that they can then apply to their own finances when they start managing their own money when they're at uni or they get their first student loan. They will know how to manage this first income, how to put it into different pockets.

41:34The role of delayed gratification is important because that will teach them about investing and maybe spending a little bit less today to have more tomorrow. So yeah, it's super important to start, but we need to think about our own beliefs also around money and what we think when parents give more money to boys than girls. That's a massive gap already. I find that very opposite. Any time I wanted money, I was like, Dad, she'd be like, go and work. But my mom would be like, mom, and she'd be like, yeah, have some money. Then my sister, anytime she wanted money, she was like, dad, and he would just give her money.

42:04And then my mom would be like, no, go and work. So yeah, I think it was the other way around. But understanding the value of money, I mean, you said, you know, you want money, go and work for it. I think that's the best way, and that's the best thing you can teach your kid. You know, we talk a lot about pocket money and should you give pocket money or not. I don't think you need to give pocket money to your kids. I don't give pocket money to my kids for them to understand the value of money. but it's maybe working on very practical things or having a shopping list just for yourself. So they're working on the list with you.

42:35You go in the supermarket with them and you will see two products that are priced differently. One is white label, one is a brand. There's a big difference in price. Is one better than the other? What is the choice I'm going to make? And at the end, looking at how much money I've spent versus how much money I've budgeted. And slowly, that will help children make these daily decisions. What we've seen during COVID is, I mean, I'm sure you've done it, I've done it, like prone to impulse spending and especially on Amazon and online platforms, because now we want to buy stuff today. We want to receive it the next day.

43:07And that sends, you know, the wrong message to kids. Like you buy something, you get it tomorrow. They see all these Amazon packages. They're like, what did you buy today? Is there something new? Even if you're not spending a lot of money, but they see what you're doing. And if you don't explain, you know, what's the rationale behind it? What's the budget? what's you know the overall picture they can get a little bit lost and pick up some of these of these habits my parents were big on doing chores like do wash the dishes you get five pounds wash the car you get 20 pounds things like that but um you said before that you're rubbish at doing chores in the house yeah i don't get paid for them i grew up getting paid for chores i'm not doing it for free now there's an argument that you shouldn't pay the kid to do the chores really well that you They should just do the chores.

43:48They should just do it. I don't pay for chores. Yeah. There was when you spoke to our producer, you mentioned that you left the finance world because you were one of the only women in the space. Can you explain that decision? What prompted you to leave? So I left finance because I wanted to do something else. I think that was the first reason. I wanted to build a business. I wanted to solve an issue that was important to me. and Vespod was one of the solutions and one of the things I did. But looking back at my time in finance, yeah, I think very few women within the space. We talked about this pipeline.

44:30So a lot of women as junior banker, but then as you grow up and you become more senior, you will see less women in these types of jobs. And at some point I was trying to find role models or leaders, find women who have been doing this career who also had, I mean, it was important for me to have a family. How could you combine the two and juggle the two? And I thought, okay, I'm going to see what I can do in the world of entrepreneurship and see if I can solve some of these issues. But I think now that it's important to see more. I mean, it's still important to see some senior women there. There are now some pipeline.

45:09They're trying to solve these issues and get more women into these senior positions. But it's also, I think it's a great career. for women. So, you know, it's, you can make a lot more money. You're going to work on super interesting things. It's going to be really intense. It's going to be really challenging, but I would invite a lot more women to consider, you know, having a career in finance. And today, you know, it's not something I would, I would write off of, you know, going back to finance or, or investing. You know, I spent a lot of time working for, for private equity funds. So I was amazing you know to be to be able to do that so i think we'd love to see more you know more women also in in this space do you think it's fair to say then that say on the investing side or the trading floor where the expectation is maybe to work 100 hours a week say that the woman can't say i want to do that job and have kids because to the man it's like you can't do that job and have a life you just do the job yeah you know so it's how do we make this these places a bit more flexible and allow women to have whatever they want and not all women will have families you know uh so So it's making sure, and there's all types of diversities that we want also in these banks and financial institutions.

46:18And I think that's really what they're trying to do is to have different people work and make the bank and fill in these roles. But it's not something that is always working, especially if you have a job where you have to travel a lot of the time and you want to be at home with family or you want to do different things. So I think it's really a personal decision of where you see yourself. and it's also what your employer can offer you to try to help a little bit more and keep women in these types of jobs. So it's having this pipeline of women that are going to be here, that are going to grow through these organizations and be able to lead these organizations.

46:55You know, I don't think it's meant against women. That's, you know, this thing, it's how do we work together to have more diverse places? Because that's, you know, you have to reflect, you know, what's happening in the world. I think it's naive to think that women can't do a job that a man can do. Debra Mida smashing it. It's crazy. Yeah. It is crazy. And when you made the jump to being an entrepreneur, is that the same business that you run now? No, it was another business, actually. What did you do? It was another business, a little bit more tech. So I started to look at, you know, tech. And I was living in Shoreditch at the time.

47:29And there was all these really tech cool businesses. So I started to sort of consult and work with a few businesses. I was doing business plans for them. I'm looking at how they could raise money. and I started a business. It was a recruitment platform for startups. So very quickly, we put a team together, raised a bit of money. So I run this business for a few years before setting up Vespod. But I always had this idea for Vespod at the back of my mind, especially since having had this meeting with an advisor who asked me, where's your husband? And I thought there's really something to do in the space.

48:02But what wasn't clear for me was what was the solution? What is the product I could build? And I didn't want to go head on into tech. So I thought, what else, what else can I do? And Vespod started really as a, you know, weekly newsletter, the cliche of the, you know, kitchen table, writing, building your own website. And that's what a lot of people are doing today is, you know, what can you do without funding? And the goal was to, you know, bootstrap and try to make money from this business and not raise capital too early. Was your first business a failure or did you exit? No, we closed the business.

48:36So you can call it a failure. How did that feel? Yeah, I feel really bad. Pretty shit. Pretty bad. Sometimes good, sometimes shit. Pretty bad. No, super bad. Because also, as you say, working in finance and private equity, and then you set up your business, and people are like, you know, good luck and amazing. Your parents think you're a bit crazy. You still do it. And when it doesn't work, you're like, wow, I've done everything for that. And also, I think in the UK, in Europe, failure is not something… It's not welcome. It's not like America. It's not welcome. You're meant to learn from your mistakes.

49:11It's all about me. And I think you have to try otherwise. And I could have stayed in banking and I could probably go back to banking if I want to. So, I think I always had that in the back of my mind. That's not what I want to do. But I think you learn so much from actually… from failing. So, you're trying to… I mean, it's always this risk-reward. So, you know, the more risk you take, of course, you increase your risk of failure, but also of success. So I think it's, yeah, digesting this and learning from it. And I guess that's why VestPod, you know, has been bootstrapped and we're trying to make to be sustainable and we're trying to build a business in a different way.

49:49What's your like overall goal or like your purpose? Overall purpose is really to get every single woman to start investing money and hopefully build wealth. but we're here at the very beginning of their journey. So it's to show them the options they have. Of course, we need to do all the money management thing because when I started Vespa, I really want to focus on investing, but realize actually organizing your finances, understanding you have this emergency fund, you have different goals, you want money to be aligned with these goals and how you create these different buckets of money and then make your first investment.

50:23Make it quickly and slowly increase your contribution over time. So we talk a lot about how to make that easy for you. So leverage some of the platforms online, some of the robo advisors probably to get started, or as you say, invest passively in an index fund. So how can you do that very, very quickly? And then we talk about how you can try to save a little bit more, how you can make your life a bit more sustainable, how you can increase your salary, maybe build a sale business. So we try to talk to a lot of people who can help you improve your money journey. And I think it was important to have these conversations.

50:57Before setting up Vespa, I think I never had any money conversation with anyone, personal finance, not with my family. That was always something, a lot of secrecy around money, that it was quite taboo. It's quite impolite to talk about money. And same at school, especially at the time, I was like, no, for girls, especially, you don't talk about these things. So you don't talk about it, but then you just need to talk about it. and being raised in a world where I worked in finance and I raised investments and I make big investments to then not being able to talk about your personal investment, I really see a disconnect.

51:32We're trying to reconnect the two. We're trying to help women develop trust also in the financial world because you may not like banks, you may not like financial institutions, but you have to use these platforms if you want to grow your wealth. Trying to make it really practical to make it empowering and have this conversation. So it feels a bit like coaching, like talking to a friend about money and having a community where you can share. We hosted this big festival at Coco in Camden a few months ago where we had - I'm familiar with Coco. Yeah, familiar for the party and concerts. So we organize our festival there because we just want to change the mindset around money and investing so we could host these events in big banks.

52:20But that feels very corporate. It still feels a bit scary to see people in suits. So that was super fun to have people on stage, live music, and have this super honest conversation about how even people seem quite successful and these money experts who talk about their struggle with money and how we could all do a little bit better for our personal finances without the pressure of wealth and being rich and stuff like that. And the conversations around money are interesting because I see that a lot. And I've always been quite direct working in sales. Everyone would get their payslip out at the end of the month and everyone would look at their payslips together because it was like encouraged.

52:57Because it's like, if you want to be like them, you know, sell more. So I've always been quite open, but I'll sit with family or friends and now they'll be like, I've just got a brand new BMW. And I want to say, can you afford that? Because you haven't bought it cash. You've clearly got it on finance. This house that we're in is on a 90 % mortgage. and i know the rate's probably five percent but they're like i'm doing so well and i'm you know there's no you can't say that because it's rude you can't say that you can't say can you really afford the bema should should you not just put it in an index yeah because i know the answer is no you know but yeah like these kind of the it feels the whole the whole country's backwards on its conversations with money shows of wealth are championed and sensible conversations about how much i earn and how much i'm paid and you had a layer of you know social media on top where you you you compare your life with other people but as you say you have no idea you know how much money they actually have and maybe everything you know you you know debt and credit to to pay for all these things americans are definitely better at talking about money than europeans i think and but they're also better at going on social media and flashing in everyone's faces so they kind of feed into that but they i think they would be like can you afford that car they would just straight away hey dude are you sure you can afford that because you just borrowed 50 bucks off me last week like they would just tell it how it is whereas english people and i guess french people probably a bit more reserved and like you don't want to it's a bit crass to talk about money and all these things but it probably benefits you a lot talking about money from a young age and being open about it how different are the french to the i think it's a bit similar like we really don't like talking about it um but from my experience i mean i've had once a friend asking me you know how much i earn and i was still working in banking and i felt like wow i i can't tell her because maybe i don't deserve this money so there's a lot of conversations in your head yeah guilt also um And again, like comparison.

54:39So I think having, I think it's important in a group of friends to start having these conversations because you don't know what your friends can afford. And, you know, we talk about, you know, weddings and now there's lots of, you know, hands party and stag and, you know, you're like, you have to pay that. Gender reveal pie. Or you have to change. So how much have you spent on that cannon that puffs out blue smoke? Exactly. Put it in an index. My sister wants to get fireworks for a gender reveal party. I'm like, I'm not doing that. Yeah, I'm like, she wants the fireworks. I'm like, why? And she's like, we've got to let everyone know what it is.

55:06I'm like, it's a boy. There you go. Job done. We don't need to spend money to tell people it's a boy. Yeah, fling out a tweet. Yeah, exactly. I've done it now. It's on Instagram. Everyone knows. It's fine. No fireworks. But I thought actually that investing was a nice way to start this conversation because it's something that's quite new. It's something that's, you know, quite trendy. Your friends can be intrigued about it, especially like, you know, some of my friends, if they're not investing, we can talk about investing and, you know, how you can make your money grow and what does it actually mean, how you can get started.

55:34and slowly they're like, oh yeah, but I don't have enough money or I've been in this job and I didn't get raised. That will open a lot of other conversations or they're like, oh, we're struggling a little bit at the moment. You open all these conversations about money, starting with something that feels maybe a bit dry or that's investing where you don't necessarily have an opinion where you can do it. There's a million different ways to invest, but you can do it in a very standardized way today. You can give them very practical tips on how they can start investing and why it's important. They will start thinking about their own money and own investments.

56:10Maybe that's not something they've been taking seriously, but maybe not in a very organized way and not with external support. That's where they start to maybe see an advisor, or they start mapping their finances, or negotiating a salary. That will open up a lot more conversation, which is quite interesting. Yeah, and you can start with a pound. Yeah. You know, all it takes is a pound. And I think most of it is internal narratives that are destroyed if you just put that pound in and leave it for four months. Put it in, a quid, in a global index, leave it for a year and see how you feel. And at the end, you'll be like, oh, I can do this.

56:43My life hasn't ended. I haven't lost all my money. You know, can go again. Hey guys, did you know that we summarized all of our episodes in the newsletter? You can find a link in the description. and please remember this is not financial advice like we say a lot on the podcast investments can fall and rise in fact it's pretty much a guarantee past performance is no guarantee of future results so your money is at risk with investing and other fees may apply as with everything financial please do your own research we really encourage that because no one cares more about your money than you i'm damo and t this was an episode of making money from our company most it was filmed and edited by the team at flow spire jack and ben it was produced by ruth edwards and brought together by Will Stollerman.

57:25What about Ruth and Ruth is a dog? Yeah, shout out them too.