How to get a pay rise: career coach's proven steps

In short

Podcast Summary: Making Money - How to Get a Pay Rise: Career Coach's Proven Steps

Episode Overview In this episode of "Making Money," hosts Damien Jordan and Timeyin Akerele discuss strategies for securing a pay rise with guest career coach Yota Trom. Yota shares her proven system that has helped over 500 individuals, including a significant transformation of one client’s salary from £35k to £150k in just 2.5 years. The episode covers the importance of understanding one’s worth, preparing for negotiations, and employing a strategic mindset.

Key Takeaways

Understanding Your Worth

Mindset Shift: Many individuals believe that performing well will automatically lead to rewards, but this is often not the case.
Self-Evaluation: Yota emphasizes the importance of evaluating one's own roles and responsibilities to understand if they are performing at a higher level than their current position.

The Importance of Strategy

Creating a Case for a Pay Rise:
Document roles, responsibilities, and examples of accomplishments.
Identify what an individual would need to demonstrate to qualify for a promotion.
Internal vs External Benchmarking: Knowing competitor salaries, leveraging LinkedIn and Glassdoor, and networking to understand one's market value.

Negotiation Tactics

Confidence in Asking: Feeling deserving of more can significantly impact negotiation outcomes.
Timing of Conversations: Ideally, discussions about promotions and salary increases should take place outside of performance reviews to avoid ambushing managers.
Silence is Golden: After stating a desired salary, waiting in silence can lead to more favorable negotiations.

Building a Personal Brand

Value Creation: Personal branding is not self-promotion; it’s about providing value to others and establishing oneself as an authority.
Visibility: Sharing knowledge and personal stories can enhance a presence within an organization and attract opportunities.

Additional Insights

Handling Objections: Managers may have budget constraints; being prepared to negotiate on other benefits (like flexibility or additional perks) is vital.
Resilience: If an individual does not get the desired increase, it's crucial to evaluate whether the current job is the right fit.

Step-by-Step Strategy for Getting a Pay Rise

Self-Evaluation:
Document current roles and responsibilities.
Collect examples of achievements and contributions beyond current duties.

Market Research:
Use platforms like Glassdoor and LinkedIn to find salary benchmarks.
Gather information from peers and mentors about industry standards.

Prepare for the Conversation:
Develop a clear case for why a pay rise is deserved, including potential benefits to the organization.
Prepare a script that starts positively and includes an ask for a meeting focused on career progression.

Negotiation:
Present the case confidently, being specific about what is being asked.
Be open to feedback and discuss possible alternatives if the initial ask is not met.

Follow Up:
If the request is not granted, ensure to set clear goals and timelines for revisiting the conversation.

Conclusion Yota Trom’s insights provide a practical framework for individuals looking to obtain a pay rise. By focusing on self-evaluation, market research, strategic negotiation, and personal branding, individuals can significantly enhance their chances of career advancement. The episode encourages listeners to take ownership of their worth and actively engage in their professional growth.

For more personalized guidance, Yota Trom offers coaching and resources linked in the episode description.

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Transcript

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0:01You know what I love, Damo? Things that save me time. You don't have YouTube premium, mate, so I just don't believe that. Granted, I'll give you that one. However, I've got one for you. A great time saver in personal finance is Money Week magazine. They spend a lot of time distilling the biggest stories in personal finance down into consumable chunks, so you don't have to scroll and scroll. They give practical tips on savings, investments, pensions, the UK economy, the global economy. It's like your five a day, but for finance. If you want to give Money Week a try, you can get six issues in print and the app absolutely free by visiting moneyweek.com forward slash money.

0:34After your trial, you'll save an extra£5 a quarter on the subscription, which is exclusive to Making Money listeners. And that's moneyweek.com forward slash money. But there's a link in the description if you just want to click that.

0:49So this woman is coming to me. She's making 35K. She's bringing millions to the company. I was blown away when she told me her salary. I was like, what? And now she's making 150K. Do you want a pay rise or a promotion? Hell yeah. Pipe down. Yota Trom is a coach who's built a system that's helped at least 500 people get one. I would say my minimum would be 20 % more, minimum. I got people up to 50. We grew up learning that you do what you do really well, and magically you will be rewarded. But that doesn't work.

1:22It's really interesting the world you kind of, you are dealing. You know, the people and your clients. I read in the case studies and stuff. It was super fascinating that, you know, like I would never consider that as a service almost. It's like go out and pay someone and they'll go get you. They'll help you get a pay rise. You know, that's a. So I didn't consider that as a service myself when I was starting. I was more focusing on leadership. But of course, you coach people and then it's the time when it's their performance review. So they were like, can you help us? How are we going to have the conversation with our manager?

1:56What are we doing? So I started helping them and then they had results. So they were getting more money. They were getting the promotion. So then their colleagues would see that and they would think, oh, who helped you do that? Can they help me do that? And I started getting more and more and more people. So that started being a big part of what I do, but it was all through referrals. I was actually not advertising that at all because I was thinking leadership, that's where I'm good at what i want to do but the more i start getting results then just so many people were coming over for that it's easily measurable as well isn't it they speak to you they get the pay rise like that worked whereas like good leadership is is not as tangible sometimes the thing is that if you help them be better leaders usually that will result in a promotion yes because they have better results their performance of the team is increasing all of that but what was really fun is that i was coaching people and then their managers would ask them who helped them negotiate and all of that so then I would start having the manager and then the manager of the manager so I would start from like an individual contributor and then I would coach all the way some conflicts of interest where everyone's like sat around the table had your coaching because they they would notice they say oh something changed the way you talked like that was different they would say oh well actually I had a coach and then they would be asking can I talk to your coach as well because people assume that managers know how to negotiate their own promotions and pay rises and all of that, they don't.

3:26Because no one is actually teaching us this. And, you know, from me coming from corporate background, like I worked in very big companies, worked for Amazon, worked for Yahoo, I was massively underpaid because I didn't know these things. No one is actually teaching us how to go about that. And I feel like that should be basic knowledge where we just learn how to do it. This was something from the briefing that made me feel okay about myself because I worked in sales, to me and similar, quite cutthroat, high-pressured sales. We were ruthless with each other. And I think people assumed that then we were good at asking for the money that we were owed.

4:05And I was probably underselling myself a lot. I was like the best person at the job, but then wasn't demanding pay rises and was just seeing higher commissions as my reward. Not going, I need you to double my basic because, do you know what I mean? it was just like well i'll just sell more and i think what i've observed through my clients is that most people they don't even know that they deserve more so for example someone would come even for a chemistry call to see how i work what do i do and the first question i ask is how much is your salary what's your full package all of that and within half an hour i can tell how senior the person is like i've done that for hundreds of people so for me it's easy to understand the level of seniority.

4:47And I know everybody's salaries across different industries, different levels of seniority. So I know where they should be roughly, what's their band, their band. So immediately I'll tell them, oh, you're massively underpaid. And they would say, what? And I said, yes, you should be between this and this. And they say, you're delusional. You're crazy. And then a few weeks, months, depends after, they get the money and they realize it's just because they didn't even know that they were already at that level they didn't and they didn't know what's going on in the industry market rate is yes do you think this is really common then that people don't know and that they struggle to kind of ask yes and i also think it's a confidence thing uh and a mindset thing so a lot of us we grew up uh learning that you do what you do really well and magically you will be rewarded but that doesn't work like very very rarely you will have a manager who is going to go out of their way to promote you, to give you more money.

5:49So you have to ask if you want to get what you deserve. But also I think it's really important to know what you are asking for, because if you ask too much, they will not take you seriously. If you ask too less, they will think you're not good enough. You are not convincing them that you're actually worth the money that you are going for. So I think it's also important to know exactly how much isn't it really hard to do that though because your company like businesses don't always like to let people know how much employees are earning there's like this company called glass door and you can kind of see how much the average salary is in a company but it's pretty like you don't know if you can trust it you don't know if you can trust it and you don't know if you're more senior than that person in different circumstances so how would someone go about finding what the what they should be what the benchmark is um i think there are a number of different ways to go about that usually what i like to do is combine all of them so i won't go just i would use glass store for example or linkedin salaries a lot of companies even if you go on linkedin in the job section you can see the band yeah and i think i would start even a step before so first is identifying what is your title so a lot of people they might be senior or already there might be performing at that level, but they might not know about that.

7:08So first we need to identify what is their level of seniority, where they are, what is the title that actually describes what they're doing, which might not be the title they actually have, or usually it's not the title they have. And then we would look, Glaston, we would look LinkedIn. We would ask other peers, might not be in the same company, but across the industry, mentors, coaches, people like me who know people's salaries and they can understand a little bit the market and where things are going so i feel there are a number of different ways one of my favorite ways actually is getting a job offer so what i say to all my clients is that once a year they should interview all the way until they get an offer a lot of times people resist um on that because they might think oh it might not be as ethical or but my boss my current employer might find out and not be happy but it's your right to know what you're worth in the market um otherwise how will you evaluate yourself um but i think you end up then getting kind of managed out and like your opportunities close off at your current organization i need to take today off because i'm going for an interview obviously you're not saying or you can say i need to take today off because yeah that's yeah Most people are like, I don't feel very well, I'm going to take today off.

8:27But then if you come back two months later, you're like, I got this job offer. They're like, wait a minute, all those sick days were you interviewing? Well, actually, first of all, I think you can do it really discreetly. Like you don't really need to tell them that you're doing that. But it's more about your own self-confidence. Because that's the best way to actually understand where you are now. And where would you place yourself in the market? And a lot of times with clients that they were trying to get them a pay rise or a promotion, that is giving them also more confidence to negotiate more, to ask for more because they know that actually, yes, I could get that money somewhere else.

9:08Sometimes they might decide actually even leaving the company and going for the other role. So we might do it. Sometimes I will just challenge them, for example, to do it as a test when I see their emotional blockages, confidence issues, imposter syndrome. So I'll just push them to go through the interviews just so they see for themselves. And many times they might just decide, you know what, actually I hadn't realized what I could get. And that's an amazing offer. I want to go for it. The thing is, like a lot of times we get stuck in our own environment and we think this is our only option. and I think especially when you work in corporate with what's happening over the last years you need to have as many options as possible you always need to explore your options and know what your options are so you can make the best choices for yourself because the company would also make the mess the best choice for themselves yeah they're going to sack you if they need to exactly there's no loyalty so I feel it's it's your right to do that you're not doing anything unethical.

10:10Yeah. So you've developed a system, essentially, that you run people through. Do you think, I want to go through the system step by step, but first of all, do you think anyone can kind of apply these steps? Yes. Do you think it applies to every type of work or in every type of kind of setting? Yes. So I do work a lot with people in tech because that has been my background and where I worked when I was in corporate. But I literally have clients from all industries, different roles from law to HR to product to engineering to design to everything. It doesn't really matter. It's more about being strategic about how you're going to ask and making sure you're maximizing your chances.

10:50So it doesn't matter really where you work at, whether it's also the size of the organization doesn't matter. Maybe the chances that you have can be different depending on the size of the organization, the opportunities there are internally. Usually within bigger organizations, it's way easier to get promoted because there are all the steps in between. There are different levels of seniority. So there's more opportunity, but it can be equally effective to a small startup. You can also, my experience from going from large corporate to smaller was it's much easier to make a big impact, big fish in a little pond, as you might say, and to rise up and to really show like, this is the value I provide.

11:32Whereas if you work in a 10 ,000 person organization, you're quite a small cog. You might not - Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes there aren't roles for you to move into if you're in a small organization. Yeah, and it's hard to - If there's only like one manager, you can't then become the manager if he doesn't - Also your direct reporting. Like I would work often under the CEO or something and it's kind of like, you know, I'm doing a lot of work here, here it is. Though for larger organizations, there are other ways that we can generate opportunities. So for example, one of the things I'm using a lot is personal branding and i feel so many people in corporate they are missing huge opportunities because they are not exploring that path i want to talk about personal branding in a second and later i want to go through the steps first of all because i think it's important that people can kind of like visualize how they would go about it we you mentioned the kind of the job search steps that you did there through say like linkedin jobs and things like this is that step one or is There's something before that.

12:27So for me, the first step is to understand where you are right now. So it's about evaluating what is my level of seniority? How am I performing? So usually I get people to do a self-evaluation, to fill in a self-evaluation worksheet. And basically the way we do, we do it in an Excel or in a template, whatever. And what I ask them to fill in is the first column is roles and responsibilities of where you are right now, your current level of seniority. A lot of companies actually have specific descriptions of their roles. For smaller companies that might not have that, then I will ask my clients to kind of create a little bit their roles and responsibilities list based on what they're doing day to day or based on what they were hired to do initially.

13:13So we do that. Next to that, we have the second column, which is all about examples. So what I want them is to give me at least one example of where they did this thing. So, for example, if you are a project manager and one of the things that you need to do is launch a new feature, let's say. So I will ask them, can you give me an example of when you launched a new feature? What was the feature? Very short sentence. I don't want them to go in depth or anything, but just at least one example. Then the next column is all about if we would get the promotion, so we would go one level up, how would that list change?

13:51So let's say a project manager would have to launch one feature, a senior project manager would have to launch 10 features or other project managers who are launching features. So they might have more management responsibility. And then I will ask my clients in the next column to fill in when did they do that? Do they have examples of when actually they might have done something that is one level up? this is usually a aha moment for most clients because they do not realize that they have already been doing things in the next level and they just assume they were doing what they were supposed to do so the majority of people we will see that well actually I'm doing 60 percent or 70 % of the next level.

14:41I just, I had never sat down to document that. And if that's the case, then it's very, very clear that they are up for a promotion because they are already doing part of the work at the next level. Of course, you cannot be doing a hundred percent. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to be promoted. And a lot of, for a lot of roles in order to fulfill all the requirements, you actually need to be in that position. So you cannot have, let's say, management responsibilities if you're not a manager. But there will be a lot of other things that you've been doing along the way that already demonstrate that you've been overperforming and you're due promotion.

15:20So a lot of times that step is already enough for them to realize, oh, I actually need, deserve a promotion and I should go for it. Do you think people are honest though? I think a lot of people think they deserve the next layer up and they'll be like, oh, you know, I once crossed a lady across the road. So I showed like, thinking outside the box. Actually, it's the opposite. Most people, I have to push them to think that they've done things. So we will see one of the roles and responsibilities and they'll say, I've never done that. And I would push and say, have you actually not done that? And I will ask more questions and more questions.

15:58And then they realize, oh, well, actually, I have done that. So usually we have the opposite problem. And also the people who are so confident, they wouldn't ask for my help. Yeah, this is a good point. They've already been knocking on the door. But I would say that's a very, very small percentage of people that they would feel so confident to be going up there and asking for more money and all of that. Most people have the opposite problem. I think confidence is really, really important in this area. I've applied for lots of jobs and I have no problem applying for a job. But asking for a pay rise is like a whole, I'm a very confident person, but I think it's like a whole different area of the brain.

16:37I can talk to the CEO. I can be like, oh, I did all this. But when you actually go in and say, can I have more money? It's like, it seems like it's like a whole really alien. And I feel it's because we don't know how to do it. So it feels awkward. So I would say the first step for me is evaluating. There is also a fifth column. So, and the fifth column is the smart goals for columns. So there, if we identify, because some of my clients might not be ready for the promotion. They might not have been doing the things. But actually, I will use this sheet to have a conversation with their manager and say clearly, hey, I want to be promoted in the next round.

17:13These are the things that I have been doing. These are the things that I think I need to do in order to be promoted. Can we agree together on a plan? So my best case scenario, they will be promoted within two, three hours of coaching. Worst case scenario, they will be promoted in the next round. And the reason that happens is because we don't leave anything to luck. We make sure that whatever the manager requires to promote them is there. So we will have all the smart goals. They will be taking biweekly with their manager, how they're going towards those goals. So by the time the performance review is there, there's no reason not to be promoted because they've done the work.

17:54The manager agrees. So immediately we're dissolving all the objections that might come up. So you get them to outline, I really want to stick through the flow of this so it's in a logical order for people listening. You get them to fill out the structure and the roles that people perform. You get them to highlight if they're doing that. And if there's a 60 % of the role above that they're doing, you're going, okay, you're ready for a promotion. For a promotion, yes. and i had cases where people didn't follow my advice and they actually asked for more and that didn't turn out really well someone quit the job after a few months right because they got they got they took the promotion you were like you're not ready for it and then so the company was it was through the crisis so a lot of change was happening a very big organization and um she had the conversation and they said we want to promote you um and we're going to give you almost like 40 percent more of your salary we want you to be a manager an individual contributor at the same time red flag because someone who is just becoming a manager there's no chance they're going to be succeeding by doing at the same time they want you to do two jobs almost they want you to do two jobs they didn't equip here to be a manager so i feel like when someone is a first-time manager there are a number of things that they should learn in order to make the transition because management, people think, oh, that's a promotion.

19:20Well, no, that's a career change. Whatever made you a very good individual contributor is probably going to make you a horrible manager. What's an example of something they need to learn, just like one thing? I would say a simple example is that a really good individual contributor is having so much attention to detail, is following everything really closely. As a manager, you actually need to let go of that and trust your people. And if you try to control everything, you're micromanaging, So people will hate you and they don't want to work for you. And there are many other examples that is actually a pure contradiction of like whatever, for example, like you're very good at one specific domain.

19:57As a manager, you will manage people with very different skill sets. So you will need to kind of develop a different way of seeing things, more zooming out rather than zooming in. So I feel there is a big difference. So once you got that position, she got the money. She was super excited. She said, I want to do it. two three months later the team actually asked to not be managed by her that's the worst thing can happen as a manager and especially imagine if it's your first management position because she thought oh i'm not made for management i'm not good i don't have the talent and i told her you've just not been set up for success in the first place that's why i thought you shouldn't have taken the role and the promotion because you were not ready so my intention is not to get people as much money as they can I want them to get what they are worth so I wanted to be fair last time we recorded to me and you were having some real dramas with your accountant so how's that been going mate they're sacked so drama sorted um they're a big corporate firm um they didn't really reply to my emails very quickly like took a week or two at times um and they charged me way too much.

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23:18That's Vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. so first step we're evaluating where we are we're doing our evaluation sheet we're like okay you deserve the promotion then based on what we have the second step for me even before they have the conversation with the manager is finding their number and the number is what is the salary that they deserve so there is where we're going to do some work usually as i said because i have so much experience by now i will help them i kind of know already by then what they should be asking for if If not, or if it's an industry I don't really know inside out or in a specific market, maybe different country, all of that, I will get them to do their research.

24:02So peers, mentors, Glassdoor, LinkedIn, applying through other jobs, combination of all that. And we kind of then know what is roughly what we're going to go for. Let's say we want, we understand that the salary band might be 80 to 100. For example, we want to get 90. So we're going to ask at least 100. So we have room for negotiation. So we know the number. And then step three is have the conversation. So in order to have the conversation, we need to build a case. And the case can be different for each person. So for me, I want to understand what are the things that I can leverage in this specific situation.

24:43So first of all, the reason I built the case is because I know that most managers, they don't know how to negotiate. So I want to hand them over everything that they need to say so they can negotiate with their manager. I'm not expecting them to figure out how to ask for the promotion of my client. I actually coach them through my client on what they need to say and how they need to say it. So I'm building the case and the case I'm looking to a number of things. It can be, first of all, we have the list of what are the things that they've done, what is the next level, how they performed higher than what they are now, all of that.

25:19Then I'm looking, what other things do I have to leverage? For example, is the team getting bigger? So does that mean that the manager might need someone else to lead some of the people? Then I'm going to use that as an argument. I'll get them to say, well, the team is scaling. I would really love to support you through that. Management is towards where I see my career going. that would be an amazing opportunity for me xyz so i might leverage that so i will see what are the things that i can use um some people might say you know what that project came up and i ended up having way more responsibilities so maybe it's not connected exactly with the next level up but it's actually demonstrating a mindset where someone will take on more responsibility they're willing to go out of their comfort zone so i will see what are the things that i can leverage and then built a very clear case of why we want the promotion, why we deserve it, and how that is going to benefit the organization as well, and specifically the manager.

26:18So it's not just how it's going to benefit me and that I need that. It's also how it's going to benefit the manager. And also the other thing is it's really, really important for the managers to understand that that's a win-win situation. And we need to actually tell them. We don't never assume that they will figure that out. We actually tell them why is that a win-win situation? How is that making the person more engaged, more motivated, make them feel more loyal to the company, all of that. So then we build the case and then we prepare a script. Can we talk about this script then? Yes. I mean, I don't know if we can go through one now or anything.

27:01But what kind of conversation, how is you shaping the conversation in that room? So first of all, I will tell them, even if sometimes we do that during the performance review, but ideally, whenever the client comes to me, I will ask them to have the conversation, even if it's out of performance cycles. Because we want the manager to know what is the intention and we want to make sure we have as much time as possible to build if we need to build more skills or prove their worth. So I will just have the conversation straight away after our coaching sessions. So first step is you actually tell your manager you want to have a conversation about your growth, the next steps in your career, your progression, all of that.

27:46We don't want this to be a surprise. So it's not like the manager is coming in a meeting and we're ambushing them like, oh, by the way, I want to talk to you about my promotion. Because a lot of people, they might be first time managers, so they might have never had this conversation. We want to give them time to mentally prepare and to know that they're going into a conversation around growth and all of that. So we send the invite specifically for that. And we go straight to the point. We don't start talking about other things because then the conversation might drift. And then most of my clients, they would say, oh, I never have time to talk about that.

28:17Yeah, that's because you're not making it very, very clear that this call or this meeting is going to be specifically about that. So then we talk about, so we get them to the meeting and then we say, hey, like I really always start positively. So I appreciate the team. I appreciate how much you've supported me. We don't want to lie there, of course. So what I tell my clients is what are the good things that your manager has done for you or the company? Start with that. So always start with a positive note. And then the way we want to do that is we've done, I've done some work. Sometimes they might say I've worked with a coach or on their own.

28:54So I've done some work around where I'm currently at at the moment, and I've realized that I'm actually performing higher than my current level. I can share with you an Excel sheet that I put together where you can see what are the things that I have been doing over the last year. And what became really clear to me is that actually I have been doing a lot of things in the next level. So I would like to have a conversation to see how I could actually be recognized for the work that I have been doing and see also maybe like there I will always adjust, as I said, on the client. But I would say something like I want to make sure that the company actually sees my value, understands what I bring on the table.

29:43But at the same time, I want to have the opportunity for growth to contribute even more. Um, so I would like us to have a conversation to see how that, um, can happen. And then they opened the actual Excel seat and they go through with the manager. It has happened to me multiple times that only by doing that, they get the promotion instantly, multiple times because the managers hadn't realized how much work the person was doing. Sometimes even the person hasn't realized how much work they have been doing. So, and, and I have like case studies and stuff like that, where people are like, I got promoted after two hours of coaching.

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30:19And the reason is because we just told the manager, I have been doing all this work. The manager maybe was super busy, especially in scale-ups. I see that happening more and more because managers are going nuts. They have the teams are scaling. They don't really have even time for one-to-ones actually with their people, right? So you tell them that and they realize, oh, you've been right. You've actually been doing all this work. You should have had the promotion already. And immediately they get promoted. Some other times we might need to convince them. So we tell them all that. If we're doing a performance review, we want to make sure the manager agrees.

30:54So at the end of the conversation, we will ask, so what do you think? How do you see that? Do you agree that I have been doing all these things? Or do you see that maybe I haven't been doing some of this stuff? And then we're trying to see where's the manager, because what we want in order to get the promotion, the manager needs to support us. So if the manager is not convinced, I want to understand what are their objections. and then what I will tell my client, if we have objections, don't keep pushing, just take the objections and bring them to coaching. So then we can see, okay, how can we address these objections?

31:28What are some other things that we could use? So we leave the manager some time to think about it because even for them, it might be, okay, how am I doing that? What do I need to say? At the same time, what we're doing in parallel is also building the network around that. So usually when we have the performance review, there are calibration meetings, which means the manager is not the only one who is making a decision. There are other decision makers. And what we want is we want to make sure that whatever is the person has been doing is also visible to other, to the people who will be deciding about that.

32:05It can be the manager of the manager. It can be peers, different people. So we want to have maybe some conversations with people saying, hey, I'm putting myself for a promotion and I just want to get your feedback on what do you think. We're not telling them, I want you to support me unless you have a great relationship, but we want to let them know that, hey, I'm actually very excited. I'm putting myself up for a promotion. Hopefully all the work that we've done could help towards that. Let me know if there's anything else that you think I should be doing to strengthen my case. So we try to have a plan around what needs to be done.

32:41So if it's the performance review, obviously it's too late. There's not so much we can do, but if we are anyway from one, two, three months before, then we do have this amount of time to do the things that need to be done in order to justify the promotion. So we have the conversation, let's say bad case scenario. We don't get the promotion in that round. We are not ready. We fill in the fifth column of the works, of the evaluation sheet where we say, okay, these, these, these are the things that I need to do. So then we have a clear plan to get it in the next round. In the good scenario where the manager is, okay, yes, you deserve that.

33:21I'm going to fight for your promotion. Great news. They get the promotion. Then it's the moment when we will discuss about the salary. So we don't want to go in the beginning to the manager and say, hey, I want the promotion and 30K more. We're not doing that because then we're asking for too many things. We don't, we're not maximizing our opportunity for negotiation. So we want to take it one step at a time. So usually when they get the promotion, the manager will be so happy. They'll be like, yes, I'm so happy to announce you got the promotion and 5 % increase, something like that, which is horrible increase.

33:55I mean, that's the worst that can happen. So usually they will always offer you less than what you're worth or what you want, because they might have constraints in budgets or they might think, oh yeah, they would be happy. They were making so little money. So even that now makes a difference. So that is the moment where we will talk about the salary. And the way we start the conversation, first of all, very excited, very grateful. Thank you so much. It's been amazing. You've been so supportive. I mean, this person really made an effort to get you promoted. So acknowledge that. Even if the salary that or the rise they're offering you is not the best or what you would like, we still need to acknowledge that the manager made an effort to get you promoted and get a title.

34:44So first we're acknowledging all that. We're very, very grateful. And then you can say, well, actually regarding the salary, I had a different number in my mind. So based on research that I've done on the market and what I'm bringing on the table, what I would be really happy with is 100k um and then you stop you don't say anything after that because most people what they're doing is they're trying to justify where they deserve their 100k but that immediately makes you look insecure and that you don't own your number so you just say i think what i would be really happy with would be 100k and then you wait for the reaction and then whoever speaks next they faint yeah that's the real sales tactics yeah some like poker stuff and you just stay in silence looking at each other until someone talks take a sip of your drinks like real slow have a little stretch but you need to give them some time right because if you are asking 20 30 40k more like even in percentages if we talk 20 30 40 percent more like i i would i would say my minimum would be 20 % more for a promotion, minimum.

35:58I got people up to 50 % more, especially if we're changing companies. That's when we can maximize the increase in the salary. But even with the same company, 20, 30 % is very, very doable if you know how to negotiate it. Sounds big, 30%. But people get it all the time. Especially if you've been underpaid 20 % already. Exactly. You're actually getting just a 10 % on market value, right? But you know what's the big difference that I think it will either give you the promotion or not? Your confidence. If you saw that you actually believe it and you present it as it's common sense, obviously I should be at 100K.

36:36That's my market rate. That's what I've been doing. I've just been underpaid for so long. Then that's different, right? That's giving you a completely different level of negotiation. The manager will probably have some objection or the budget. We don't have the budget. That's too much. and what we want at that stage is to give them time. So we are saying, okay, I understand that's a significant pay rise, but as we've established already, even from our previous conversation, is how much is the impact that I'm bringing the organization and being happy and feeling like I'm actually valued and rewarded for what I bring is only going to increase my performance, my motivation, my engagement at work, the loyalty that I have in the company.

37:18so I would really appreciate if you could see what you could do and then we can have another conversation go make it work Larry it's like some Tarantino stuff and then you just sat there with your coffee like get it done I really appreciate it thank you in advance for your cooperation you do kind of back them into a corner in a nice way yes but also like there maybe we can bring more things in like if they brought revenue if they saved money So you can bring more financial, more information around financials. So that's a good place to say, okay, well, actually, I brought X amount of customers in the company.

37:58Or customer satisfaction has increased 20 % since I started in this road. So there we want to bring even more things because these things are actually going to help the manager to negotiate. so again we want to hand over to the manager what are the things that they need to say to justify the money that we're asking not arming them with the tools to go speak to their manager and go well he does exactly and also that's why we're asking a little bit more because the company they won't hit so if when if i want them to get 90 and we've asked 100 i don't expect that they will get 100 but i expect if the company want to give them 80 let's say if the band is from 80 to 100 and they give them the lower band 90 is meeting them in the middle so the company feels oh we negotiated them down we made a good deal and then we got the money that we actually wanted from the first place because if you meet if you ask 90 they're going to negotiate you down to 85 for example so we always want to have a little bit of room so they feel oh well actually yeah i am doing something because they cannot tell you no to everything they cannot say no we're not giving you any more money.

39:04No, we're not doing this. And also the other thing, once they come back with whatever is the number, maybe there are other things that we can negotiate about. So maybe objectively, they don't have the money, but realizing that actually you're under bait, they might give you other things. So that might be flexible working. It might be less hours of work. It might be more days off. It might be more stocks. It might be benefits. It might be coaching. It might be different types of things that we can get so in there are cases where the companies are very small and they objectively cannot do much but there are so many other things that they can bring on the table in some cases we even just negotiate the title yeah we had a question from a guy called sam that was basically that didn't we i don't know if there's much point reading it out now but he basically asked to main was doing extra duties and he had an idea basically doing 69 of the job already so i basically need a raise um but yeah sam asked something very similar to what you just um what you just said he said should we only be pursuing routes that pay to a pay rise or should we also consider other benefits like reduce working week for the same pay which of course frees up time for investments into the self and other benefits which might be harder to see and my answer to that would be yes but i think you should still get some more money get the money first?

40:24Something, even like if it's a lower percentage, but at least get something. Because for me, the main reason I want that is not just for making more money. It's also the sense you have of self-worth. And for me as a coach, when people get the promotion and the paid eyes, they feel a responsibility that they need to perform higher. So actually that is helping me to unlock further potential because they will think, oh, they acknowledge my effort, they're rewarding me I want to do more for the company so people always see it and they would tell me all the companies would never want to hire you and I'm actually that's not true because if your people really feel you're valuing them and there are opportunities for growth they will want to be part of the company and they will want to do more um for you for the for the team for the manager all of that so I think you need to get at least something just so you feel good with yourself I didn't get the right raise I wanted once but they said uh we'll pay for your parking so you can because I was taking the bus to work and I wanted to drive and they said we'll pay for your parking spot in the in the hospital car park so you could you love that clout didn't you so like to me I'm like okay they care about me they gave me my own spot did you get a name no it was just like a number yeah I had like a scanning signal you painted a t on it a capital t um yeah so I felt valued I'm like oh I can it made my life easier I don't have to take the bus anymore I can drive to work.

41:48And it's, yeah, it shows that you care about me. Because there are small companies that they cannot really afford a massive pay rise. And I think then it's up to the person to make a decision whether whatever the company is offering, maybe they cannot even give you the promotion. As you said, maybe there's only one manager. There's no levels in between. The team is really small. So there's not really an opportunity for growth. But then it's up to you to evaluate. Okay, now I know how much I'm worth. I know what I can get on the market. but you know what I really love the culture or I really like what I'm learning um in this company or there are some other benefits and then I will get people to evaluate uh whether okay I'm actually happy like now I know what the company can do I know whether I'm going to get the pay rise or not uh there's no question marks there or doubt or hope or anything it's very very clear but then it's up to you because the only thing we can control is where the environment that we put ourselves.

42:44You cannot control the financials of the company or the culture of the company or anything. But what you can control is where am I putting myself? Is this the environment that actually gives me maximum opportunities for growth and development and makes me happy? And I think we need to be a little bit selfish about that because we're giving so much time in our work and we deserve to be happy. Everybody deserves to be happy and feel worthy and rewarded and appreciated. So that is the only thing that is 100 % in your control, the environment. I think the nature of your work will mean that you work with people that earn more money.

43:20The numbers you've mentioned, like 80, 100K, it's probably because these are the kind of people where they'll go pay a coach because a 20 % uplift is massive, right? But what about people that work in low-paid industries? So for example, I had a client, when we started working with her, she was making 35K. So coaching was just the benefit that the company was giving. And then And she found me through referrals. I was going to say, they weren't paying for you, were they? Yes. To tell them, no, I mean the company. Usually when the company is paying, they don't give me a brief. So it's like they could pay for you to go in a conference, but the person might use their budget for a coach.

43:55So the company doesn't give a brief. It's just you have an educational budget and you just can use your educational budget however you want. To get a pay rise. It's genius. Yes. And a lot of them, they would use it for career growth, right? Because as I said, most of them, when they come, they don't realize that they are underpaid or that they are already at a more senior level. So they would come to say, oh, I want to grow my career. I've been stuck in this role for X amount of years. People told me that you help them with career growth. So I want to see if you could help me. So that's how they would come.

44:27So this woman is coming to me. She's making 35K and she's doing sales. She's bringing millions to the company. I was blown away when she told me her salary. I was like, what? Like literally, I think I work with her, I still work with her actually, two years, two years and a half. And now she's making 150K. And for her, the biggest thing was mindset. So when I first asked her to go from 35 to 50K, she was doing sales. I mean, like, as you said, in sales, you see the numbers, you see what people bring on the table. It's really easy to negotiate. Probably that's one of the easiest cases to negotiate a pay rise.

45:06And for her, it was a mindset because she said my mom made like the higher salary my mom made was 35K. And most of my friends are around 35, 40K. So I feel that's already like I made, I am in my early 30s and I'm making 35K. She was very grateful. She thought she was doing amazingly. So she wouldn't see how much she could get. So then we pushed her to 50K. From 50K, we took her to 80K. And sometimes it was just money, so no promotion, no title, just readjusting the salary. And for her, the way we positioned it, especially from 50 to, I think it was 85, the second jump she did, is we need to reevaluate my salary.

45:57So we didn't ask for a pay rise. We asked for a reevaluation because she was so underpaid, given what she was bringing and other colleagues as well. And I happened to work with other colleagues, so I knew everybody's salaries. Of course, I couldn't disclose that, but I knew how much we could push for that. And she didn't get any rejection. They said, that's fine. The company's still happy to pay for the coaching. Again, that's educational budget, you know. Yeah, they're like, goddammit. 35K to 150, good investment there. Yeah, good investment there. We triggered it. Yeah, but can I say something?

46:38Now, this person is the right hand of the CEO. And she wouldn't do that if she didn't feel she was able to do that. So the money played a huge role in her confidence and how much more she would push herself. Because when you go from 35K to even 80K, you think you are good. You think like, if they pay me 80K or 85K, I must be really, really good. And we started building the confidence. So the more, the higher the salary was going, the confidence was increasing. So she would take more ownership. She was like, yes, I can do a workshop for CEOs. I'm making like 80K. I am very, very worthy. She wouldn't see anymore herself as this junior person.

47:21So that is a massive benefit for the company. Like she made them so much more money just because she got the confidence to present herself. Now she's a VP. so that's a massive um gain for the company ollie who i know you know he sat here and he said the same skills that earned me like 15 000 pounds a year when i was a musician now i mean millions and i do the exact same things it's just a reframing of like the scale of the skills and how i apply them and i think a lot of people you know say we look at the investment banking industry and we think these people are on another planet i bet there's people in other industries that do similar things every day, work just as hard, get paid 10 times less because they're just not quite in that space or...

48:03Or they might not know. So this woman, if you think about her reality was, my mom made 35K. That was the maximum salary. So when she reached 35K, she thought she's made it. She couldn't even think how far she could go and how quickly she could get there. But she was doing the job already at just like the more money she was making she was doing it at a higher level but she had the skills how many pay rises was that from 35k you said to like because you said it's only two and a half years so that's quite a lot of how many times did you ask for uh a lot of times twice a year i would say twice a year for her yes can most people do that or is that if you're no that's an exception she was really underpaid and she was really underpaid and she When I asked her, I remember in the last one when I told her, you need to ask 150.

48:53And she said, you're crazy. You can't ask. And I was like, just ask. Like, how much money did you bring to the company? She was like 2.5 million. Let me get half of that, please. And I said, and you really think that 150K is a lot of money? If they would lose you, how much money would they lose? Because she had created all these relationships and people were actually buying hair. They were even pitching her to do consulting work out. So this money, they would go to the competitor, whoever she would join. And they knew. I knew, like the CEO, he's a smart guy, right? He knew what she was bringing on the table.

49:35So there was no chance he would risk losing her because she was so, so valuable. The problem is she didn't think that was doable. And, yeah, she did it. Yeah, I think as someone who was an employee and someone who now hires people, try and ask what is my value to them in terms of how hard am I to replace? My editor, right? You know, it would be a horrible task to replace him, to go and find someone to train them up. We've worked together for so long now that I can give him very simple instructions for complex tasks and he will just deliver that. That's worth so much money to me. Exactly. But that's why I say the right number is important.

50:14So the money I told her to ask, it was totally fair. I still think she could get 30K more. Well, she's the right hand to the CEO. Exactly. I'm sure the CEO is earning a lot of money. So, you know, it's a scale up. So the company is growing like crazy and she sees their main person doing all the client relationships. So I knew what I was telling her to ask was realistic. And I feel that is important. if that is what's important because if you ask something that's not realistic or you're not bringing that value in the organization they obviously are not going to take you seriously and you're not going to get any money we've got another question from the audience actually that i'd like to jump in with i think applies here sure mx horty wrote recently one of my colleagues left and after about a year of struggling with his workload a new colleague was finally hired i'm in my late 20s and he is late 30s and he has similar experience to me whilst working with him we were chatting and he told me his salary which is 55k i was shocked as mine is 45k how should i go about asking for a pay rise with this fact in mind and how do i word it that i found out my equal is earning 10k more than me for the same job at the same grade so i would say that's so common.

51:28So first of all, I would say, don't feel bad. Like that's what's happening in most cases. It's because we don't know, right? It's exactly what I've been saying just before. We don't really know where we are. And of course, when someone comes in, so the quickest way to get more money is to change roles and to change companies, actually not change roles to change companies. So obviously when someone is coming in from another company, he will have a more competitive salary. So if the person who asked the question has been in the same company for many years and they've been growing slowly, it does make sense that they're making less money than someone who is just joining from the outside.

52:08When I was working at Amazon, I had so many colleagues that they would leave Amazon because in Amazon you have very clear performance cycles. It's very, very difficult, not impossible though, but very, very difficult to get promoted outside of specific years and all of that. So they would leave, they would go and work two, three years somewhere else and then they would come and there would be two levels up. And that they could have never done it within the organization just because the way the organization is working. It's so annoying, isn't it? It is. But it's happening. You don't reward loyalty.

52:37Yeah, it's the reality of the game. Yes, but you just need to know it and work around that. So first of all, I want to say that that's really normal. Don't feel bad about that. Like happens all the time. The way I would go about that, I guess the new salary is probably confidential. So probably you cannot say that you know the other person's salary, but actually, even if you could, I wouldn't say that. I would follow the exact steps. As I said, I would evaluate myself, my worth, what I'm bringing on the table. So now you also have more data. So I would definitely leverage what this person is doing.

53:09So if you're doing the same thing, you can actually, instead of saying this person is getting paid more, you can say, well, actually I compare myself with X of the things that this person is doing in the role as a new hire. And I see I'm already doing all of these things as well. And then I did some, my research to understand where I stand on the market. And I realized that actually, so if you want 55K, I would say 65. So I would say that my market, if I would now go somewhere else, it would be around 65K. So I would like to see what you can do because I feel like I'm not valued for the things that I bring on the table.

53:48And I want to see if the company is willing to actually acknowledge X, Y, Z. I would probably highlight some of the things that I brought on the table, especially if there are things that this person brought that the colleague didn't, because there might be new in the role and all of that. So I would highlight a little bit the difference in the performance without talking about their salary. I would just say, that's what I feel I deserve. And that's what I would get if I would go out in the market. so what could you do they're in a good place because they know the number right like that's a bit of information it's like a real good ace up your sleeve to know they're paying that to someone so if they offer me any less than that i'm not being valued here you know yes and then it's a decision right so i think if you follow the steps all the things that we said before you ask the right number and all of that if they still say no then you know that they wouldn't give you the money anyway so then what happens if you get bad manager so either someone who doesn't care about your promotion or someone who's trying to suppress your progression because again in sales yeah there were certain people it's like oh he's too good at selling to move forwards and like you would see bad people they would kind of move them up the chain because it's like they're wasting leads or they're not as good at selling yes you know so the people who were bad at selling got promoted um yeah how do you deal with that again as i said i would think about whether that's the right environment for me because a lot of people, one of the things that I see all the time, people are under a bad manager.

55:13And the problem is not that you're not going to make more money. You're not going to progress. It's that the belief that you're building about yourself and the belief is I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy or I don't have this skill. So usually when we have this type of scenarios, the manager is not only not promoting them, but it's actually consciously or subconsciously, not really helping them build their confidence. It's probably hitting their confidence. So for me, that's really, really dangerous because if you believe you are not worthy, that can damage your whole career. And my job is way more difficult when I need to help people rebuild their confidence.

55:51So when I see they are not in the right environment and there's no chance we're going to be promoted or get more money, then I think you just need to leave the organization or change team, if that's possible. but all the cases that i have seen people trying to go against the manager that didn't turn out well i've definitely had that before like a manager who's sometimes there's like politics so they favor some people or i went i worked in a like singaporean company before and they only really wanted to promote people who were from singapore and i was like one of the few people from europe so it's uh so sometimes it's out of your control so i just left and got a raise most of time i've got a raise has been changing careers i've only got a raise twice actually asking for one because i think it's just so much harder and like that's what i would ask you is that because you were not you were afraid to ask yeah and like the one i left when i was there for a year and the boss was suppressing me i would i was doing the most deals and everything was going great but then every time she'll be looking for issues and i don't really create issues i mean i create drama i create drama but i don't create issues i'm a very everyone loves me in the company you know but she would be like always like putting these little seeds in and making me lose confidence in myself i'm like but i'm doing the most deal she's like yeah but this manager says that he doesn't like you because you caused this i'm like but i didn't and i realized when i left that she was just she just didn't want to pay me more yeah and so yeah a lot of the times it is personal or it's politics and i think that's really really dangerous as well because also we know right like positive reinforcement is the best way to actually get your people engaged and to help them perform higher so if you have someone where you don't feel this appreciation or you don't feel the drive from your manager then i think my my go-to would be leave the company or leave the team one thing i would say is that when it happened to me when your confidence gets knocked so if they don't give you the raise you then applying for jobs seem you're like oh i suck there's no point applying for jobs because no one's going to hire me like i didn't go that deep but like you feel like what's the point of quite like they don't give me a raise here who's going to hire me for more so like you really got to like dig that follow your structure and dig back into your confidence and be like okay this is not the right situation i need to leave rather than be like oh this sucks but nothing's ever going to change i might as well just keep doing it and i do get a lot of people actually that they come also for helping them find their confidence yeah especially i would say women who are coming back from maternity is a very common example uh where they feel oh i haven't been everybody was progress is has progressed i am still where i was before My brain is not working because I've been one year out of work.

58:22So that is a really common example where we need to rebuild the confidence for the person. Actually, yesterday I had a coaching session with a woman who is starting next week from her maternity. And she said, just before my maternity, I was about to get a promotion. But then obviously I got the maternity. I stayed pregnant, so I had to leave. And she said, do you think I can still ask for the promotion now, although I've been out for a year? And I said, go for two weeks, start to get yourself again, you know, in the role and everything. So, you know, what's, you feel confident in where you are.

59:00And I said, definitely, you should still ask for the promotion. Maybe we need to build a little bit of your confidence to get there. But the next promotional round for her is in June. So I said, we have all these months now to work towards that. So for her, it was just the confidence because the skills, she had them already. She was about to be promoted. It's just life happened, essentially. And if an organization says no, and then you say you're leaving, and then they say, okay, we'll give you the pay rise. Do you think at that point you should be like, no, I gave you the, if you followed all these steps?

59:33Well, it depends. I think some of my clients, actually, they are making the decision to stay. Well, at that point. but if they even if sometimes they even have an offer and they have to give bargaining chip yes yeah so even they might reach all the way to the offer they might still love the company and when they see they actually got the money they realize well i don't really want to change are you actually valued if you've got a literally threatened to walk out the door before they they give you the money that's not an optimal scenario i will agree with you but I have seen that happening quite a few times and the people decided to actually stay because there were other things that they were valuing a lot I would say in most cases if I think of examples I would say that soon after they still decided to leave what's your you've worked with a lot of different careers and industries what's your success rate for getting people raises?

1:00:36So I would say maybe around 90%. It's pretty high because the thing is, if you follow the steps, there's no way you're not going to be promoted because even if you don't get promoted immediately, it's impossible to not be promoted in the next round if you do all the things that you have agreed with your manager. We had cases though where the manager said, I agree with all of that, but objectively we can promote you in a year. And we knew that this would be the timeline, but when the year comes, then you get the promotion. So I feel if you're really clear and you set goals and you make sure you are on the same page, you and your manager are on the same page, and then your manager is on your side, you're regularly checking in.

1:01:21So that's why I'm always saying all the one-to-ones, start with a very quick check in. Hey, just wanted to review the performance goals that we set and you go through column five and you're just taking all of this stuff just to make sure that I'm actually performing. What we don't want is we don't want surprises, right? And a lot of people get in the performance review and I say, what do you think is going to happen? They're like, I don't know. That shouldn't be a surprise. By the time you get there, you should know if you have been performing, underperforming, overperforming. That shouldn't be something that you find out on the spot.

1:01:57That is also failure of the manager. So if that happens, it means also your manager hasn't done a great job. So if their manager is listening, they need to make sure that the person knows what they're working into during the performance review and whether they would deserve to be promoted or not. Yeah. And I think the key message is take them seriously. Like they're for you to get more out of the business. It's not just like you're being told how you've done. It's take ownership. Essentially for me, that's the thing is like what I do with my clients is I get them to take ownership. Nothing more than that.

1:02:31Because we're always expecting, and I was the same when I was working in corporate. I never asked for more. I was just expecting, oh yeah, I did all this work. I never went prepared of why or how or what or how much money I want. I was just waiting to see what they will give me and how I would feel about that. But I didn't have a number when I was stepping into the room. And I think I lost huge opportunities. That's why I'm so passionate about, because seeing that how easy it is and how possible is for people i feel like everybody should be doing that or at least give it a go because worst case scenario what they're gonna do they're gonna say no no one got fired because they asked for more money and then you have a definite answer as well of like well i'm not being valued here so i'll leave rather than sitting there going when's it going to happen when's it going to happen and the realization that in in the workforce it's not those who deserve it's those who ask exactly like you know and i think i work a lot with women and all of that and i think women especially find it even harder to ask um if i am honest yeah no i think i think you know there's something in in the stereotype i work with some ferocious women who would who were getting like they were like on the performance reviews getting their money you know they were hammering it and i was like oh crap they're getting paid yeah yeah yeah but then i also like you say you work in environments where it typically it's the men that feel more comfortable asking those questions i work a lot in tech as i said so that's been my industry for many years and there of course there's a lot of discrepancies for salaries you know women are always a minority so you also do not have women to look up to who are doing that and i feel that's also where that might originate from my mom said that when she was working back in the say like the 90s and the 80s she was like if you didn't smoke you didn't get the promotion so people would start smoking so that they could talk to the boss in the smoking area and might be part of the club um so she's like yeah you know that's how i started yeah the non-smokers didn't get promoted because it was a good opportunity to talk to your boss kind of off the record um yeah but i mean make like a proper conversation it doesn't have to be off the record you're not asking it's your right to ask you're working for money you're not working for a hobby right so i've fallen i've fallen foul of that of that this thing of i almost i'm grateful for the business that i work for when When I'm delivering like 10 times more than anyone else.

1:04:55And it's like, thank you so much for the opportunity. I come from Greece, right? So for us, for many, many years, that has been the mindset. You should be grateful that you just have a job. But actually, and for me, that was huge. Moving in the UK, moving to the UK, realizing that, well, actually, no, they are also lucky to have me because I'm bringing so much value. So this is an equal relationship. It's not just me being grateful. they should be also grateful for what i bring in the organization yeah we got another another point here nice long one for you to make to make those reading stuff out loud you do you love to hear my voice um who's this oh tom tom sent in this question i work for a small constructing business with six employees in a project manager role how can i approach a discussion regarding a real terms pay rise where there isn't a significant hierarchical structure above me to progress up the ladder sorry i read that a bit funny you read it like a grade four level like a kid at school like the blue dog sat on the bus um okay how can i approach a discussion regarding real term pay rise when there isn't a significant hierarchical structure above me to progress up the ladder i've recently been given an inflationary increase on last year but i feel that i've developed in my role since a year ago.

1:06:19Amazing. Exactly. Go back to the podcast, the beginning of this podcast, do all the steps, because that's what I said. A lot of, in a lot of cases, the company doesn't have any structure whatsoever. So we need to create that. So I would say, make a list. Your column one would be, what were you doing when you first hired or maybe a year ago? And what what are you doing now? So how that has changed? So he's mentioning having more, stepping up in his role, doing more things. So what are these things? List them out. So kind of create your own one level app job description, kind of, and then use that and say, look, that's how I grew because now maybe we do not have a benchmark to compare to, but you, the benchmark is yourself.

1:07:04So what I would say, if I was him, I would say, I've done so much progress. I developed these skills. I brought X, Y, Z specific value. That's why we want the Excel. So everything is documented. And then the manager can actually take a look and be like, oh yeah, they did this. They did that. That was great contribution. And you can say, yes, I received the 5 % last year, but I just don't feel that is actually representing what I'm bringing on the table. So again, have a number in your mind. So you would say, I would actually, in that case, I would actually say my number. So let's say if he's in 40K, I would say what I would be really happy with would be if we want 50, maybe ask 55 or 60, 60, maybe from 40 to 60, you're pushing it.

1:07:48So I would say 55 though, you can easily ask 55 and maybe you will get around between 47 and 50. So that's usually how they will negotiate you. You can say, I would like 55 because, and I wouldn't say because things are more expensive. A lot of clients, they're trying to find external reasons. Focus on what are the things that you bring and what are the extra things that you bring. And you can say, having this salary will also give me the motivation to also do this, this and that. Tie that with your manager's goals. So what are his performance goals that he needs to deliver? And you can say, I would like to step up more and being recognized and give them the opportunity, even financially, that for me emotionally would actually unblock me and will allow me to contribute and do X, Y, Z.

1:08:36This is a plan of the things I want to bring over the next few months. And I feel this salary is actually reflecting all of these things that I just mentioned. And then you don't talk anymore. Then you do the silence. Then you do the silence. Take a sip of the coffee. Light up a cigarette. Because 5%, I mean, it's nothing, right? Yeah. Like the cost of living has increased so much. It's not even a real term. Like you said, you've got an inflation-adjusted pay rise, which people need to recognize that all that's done is keep you where you are if you've had inflation adjusted. Most people haven't even had that.

1:09:09So there's another layer to the argument of I'm actually poorer than I was two years ago by working here. But also the loyalty element. So I think if he's been working for some time in the company, I would also use that as part of building the case. I'd say, look, you know how much I love the company. I really see myself helping you build and grow more. and uh but i need like that's what my market value is so i also need to feel like i'm doing justice to myself and what i deserve so i would also use the loyalty card as part of the bargaining what about self-employed people like how do how do self-employed people ask for more money that's interesting um i will use my own self as an example um when i finished the uni for positive psychology and coaching psychology.

1:10:00I did a master's when I was doing my career transition from like corporate to entrepreneurship. I've been told that we should charge 50 pounds an hour and that's what coaches are charging. That is ridiculous. Like that's not what coaches are charging. But of course, when I was first starting, I didn't know any better. I thought my teachers, they knew what they were talking about. All of us thought about that. And I think the good thing that I did in my case was build a really good network. So with other coaches, so I start listening how much money they were charging, how they were going about their business.

1:10:36And a lot of times, especially because a lot of the work I do, you can actually, my clients have monetary returns. So it's very easy to actually see what you're bringing on the table. So then I remember cases where my clients would make more money than me. And I would say, I'm doing something wrong here. That's not the right mindset. But I think as an entrepreneur, it's really important to have other entrepreneurs around you and especially being intentional about having entrepreneurs that they're doing even better than you. So you can benchmark yourself compared to them because otherwise I think the confidence can play a huge role here.

1:11:19I was coming from a corporate background. I didn't know any of the things that I share today. I didn't know any of these things back then. I didn't know how to negotiate. I didn't know how to evaluate my worth or anything like that. So for me, I had to do a huge mindset shift from corporate employee to entrepreneur and a business owner and, you know, having goals and want to scale the business and all of that. And I think my rates were increasing as my confidence was increasing. So seeing my clients getting results, that was building my confidence. But the significant difference made when I surrounded myself with other entrepreneurs and I saw what other people were charging.

1:11:59I remember being part of a mastermind just a few years ago. And it was a mastermind, all coaches, different coaching businesses. And what I wanted to bring on the table was rates because I wanted to see what other people think. I was thinking I was making good money back then. I was pretty happy. And I tell my number and everybody starts laughing. There were, we were 10 of us, nine people started laughing and I say, okay, done. And they're like, we didn't tell you anything. I was like, you don't need to tell me anything. If I have nine people laughing when they hear my rate, I know I'm not charging nearly enough to what I, I deserve.

1:12:40So I think there it's a little bit different because there are not really any benchmarks. and also I feel it's what is the value that you bring but also how much confidence you are projecting to the person who's going to work with you because if you don't own what you're going to charge they're not going to pay you that money. You can be the best, I don't know, designer in the world but if you don't convince them that your design is worth that amount of money because that's what makes you different and unique and what is the benefits and all of that people are just not going to pay you for that we we can't want to come back to something that we said at the start that i said i'd bring in you talked about personal brand um and the importance of that within a workplace and how you can kind of leverage that i obviously am a firm believer in in that my whole career is my brand right but and to main's doing well aren't you i'm trying that brand coming up well what's the insta handle you need to get better oh yes so good show uh t is making money if you're following on instagram just jump on t is making money best instagram profile out there yeah yeah we'll link it in the description for people if they want to follow this reprobate um but yeah so how how do you see that within a work setting though because my personal brand is the business if that makes sense yes whereas what you're talking about is like almost building like a an industry focused brand is that right so you become like an expert but you're still working you're not like a an influencer as such?

1:14:07Yes. So first of all, let me give you some background on that. So I left corporate, didn't have any network, didn't know what even personal branding was, didn't know any of this. And then all happy. I thought, okay, I did a master's. I learned about coaching and all of that. I'm going to build my business. Well, where do you find the clients, right? Because you don't have a network. No one knows you. No one knows what you do. So obviously I burned all my savings in the first year because I had zero clients. So I realized that I need to put myself up there, make myself known, what do I do? So I started working on my personal brand.

1:14:46And then my business went pretty well, pretty quickly. I would say the first year was really tough, but after that, people got to know me. I built a community of 6 ,000 people here in the UK, did lots of events. So I really built my personal brand into my industry and what I do. And that resulted in successful business and all of that. And then as I was coaching people, I thought, wait a minute, what if we start using personal branding for my corporate clients instead? How can I use the skills that I have developed as an entrepreneur forced to build my own brand, but do that for corporate? Which is, the mindset is similar.

1:15:28Maybe the practice is a little bit different. So I started testing through my clients. I didn't know how that would work. So we started, let's say someone was looking for a job and I said, okay, I want you to maybe do one LinkedIn post every week and talk about what are your values? What do you love about your work? Give some value to the people. Is there a specific area of expertise that you think would be useful for other people and all of that? And what I've seen is that when people were going into an interview, the recruiters would say, well, actually we looked in your LinkedIn profile and we think you are a little good much because your values really align.

1:16:04So I started realizing that people are noticing what we're posting about. And the personal brand is not just externally for LinkedIn, because that's what most people think, it's also internally. So within the organization, how can I make myself known? Because the best way to accelerate your career growth is if people know who you are. So when your manager is going to ask for a promotion, they know who he is already. They know what he's bringing on the table. I don't need to convince them. And for me, personal brand is not about self-promotion. I think people need to change their mind about how they're seeing that.

1:16:41It's more about how do I give value? How do I share my knowledge with other people? Because then your personal brand stops being all about you and it's more about the value and what I can bring to the people looking at what I do. So I feel there's such a massive opportunity for corporate because there are so few people doing it now that immediately whoever does it stands out and they become the past the go-to person exactly huge huge opportunity and what i would say is um you know say like on linkedin there's a there's a real ickiness around some of the posting and what the criticism i have for people on linkedin is that they feel corporate and they feel a bit kind of like i'm super excited to announce it and it's like no no yes be genuine be authentic be yourself um so like talk about the things that you talk about you know for when i worked ir35 was this like change in legislation it was huge for contractors and if someone just bought a bit of their own personality and goes like this is what it is this is why it's crap and this is what you can do about it and mixing a bit of personality you go so much further on these platforms that are like starved of exactly you know or like genuine Yeah, just relatability.

1:17:50Yeah, like LinkedIn is full of people talking about like crap. Demo hates LinkedIn. But also, even if we look around conferences and what are the most popular talks, the most popular talks are people sharing their own story. So, I don't know, how has it been being a working parent? How has it been getting promotions in an industry where you are a minority from gender, from race, from different reasons? so people really want to see you and your own story and your personality and that's when we really create a really strong personal brand is when we tie it to who you are but it's remarkable how much how much easier it is to get promotions if people know you oh yeah well the opportunities just come to you i mean i you know like exactly people literally just come to you and say can you do this thing exactly because you're the person who speaks about but also we think about the biggest companies there are two biggest progress problems that companies have one is retention and the second is talent attraction right so how do we keep our people and how do we attract more people and they pay so much money 15 to a recruiter to find someone or whatever exactly that's a huge amount of money but what's the best advertisement for companies about the culture it's their people if i go and say i worked in amazon it was the best experience of my life that's what i learned that's how i grew that has way way more value and leverage than any advertisement or anything that they might do so if the company realizes that you're willing to put yourself out there they are going to be sponsoring you to go in conferences to do this to do that because they want people from the company in order to be their best to promote you know to be represent them yeah the best represent exactly i think this is so powerful because i was that company the the boss was kind of might not give me my confidence i was applying for a job for about eight months and i was just It's like doing interviews, not getting them, not getting like past the first round or not getting an interview.

1:19:46And then I did a post for the podcast. And then I don't know what we were talking about, but I posted something. And then I had like six people saying, are you looking for a job? Will you like a job? And it wasn't even about my industry. It was just about the podcast. And then they're like, oh, are you looking for a job? And then I took one of, I interviewed with them and I got a job. The job I work in now was from someone reaching out to me on LinkedIn from a post that I posted after I spent eight months applying for jobs on LinkedIn and not getting them. and even like the dream job I had, I went there, got to the final round, didn't get it and then their competitor hired me from LinkedIn just for my post.

1:20:17So it is really - From a post off making money? Off making money, yeah. So it was like, I don't know what we did. Did he sign the release? 15 % of your ass is mine, mate. It was like, I need that salary. Yeah, so yeah, it is really powerful. It wasn't even about, oh, I want a job in this. It was just about - Well, it's just such a valuable skill to have someone who can put themselves out there, right? And it's very rare. That's what I mean. If there is one advice I would give to people is start thinking and being a little bit more open about personal branding, because usually the number one objection I get about that, actually, there are three main objections.

1:20:53They don't know how to do it. They don't have the time to do it. Or they have really bad examples of people doing it really badly. The ones that you said, I'm excited to do this. I'm great for you for being excited. How is that relevant to me? And why would I read what you just wrote? And I think, but on the flip side, there are people who are doing it great because I bet that there is at least one person that you follow on social that you really like what they say, you find it useful. So try to be that person instead and don't focus on the other 100 people that are doing it badly because that's where the opportunity.

1:21:27And if you remain true to yourself, you're going to stand out because there's only one you. so for me if you share that value and that information that immediately is is something that you will make it will make you feel good first because i think you should be proud of what you're putting out there uh even if it's not perfect doesn't need to be perfect it just has to be real yeah yeah i think that's the key be real yeah real recognize real i don't know how you got here but real recognize real yeah

1:22:07I wish I'd known all of that when I was trying to get a pay rise. If you'd like to work with Yota, we've left her details in the description for you. We also want to make it really easy for you to do some of the things that we went through today. So we've created a free newsletter laying out all of the steps because there was a few of them. Plus, Yota's created a free workbook on how to value yourself. You can find all that linked in the description and I really hope it helps you get what you're worth. Please remember, this is not financial advice. Like we say a lot on the podcast, investments can fall and rise.

1:22:35In fact, it's pretty much a guarantee. Past performance is no guarantee of future results, so your money is at risk with investing and other fees may apply. As with everything financial, please do your own research. We really encourage that because no one cares more about your money than you. I'm Damo. Banti. This was an episode of Making Money from Our Company Most. It was filmed and edited by the team at Flow Spire, Jack and Ben. It was produced by Ruth Edwards and brought together by Will Stallerman. What about Ruth and Toothless a dog? Yeah, shout out them too.

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