How to handle property in the new world of interest rates

26:29Yeah, me too. Like my friend bought a house in South, like past Southeast London somewhere, held it for about eight years and he's just recently sold it. And now he's renting in Putney. But like for him, it was like a big deal buying it. But then once he had it, he's like, I'm so broke, I can't go out for drinks. He used to be buying all the drinks, partying. And now he's like, then he was like, look, I've got my mortgage. You guys come to my house, we'll drink at my house. So like he stopped going out and now he's in Putney. He's like, I'm liquid again after eight years. So it does tie up a lot of your capital for quite a while.

26:59Yeah, the one benefit of my ISA is in my phone, I have the ability to just exit that at any point, withdraw it tax-free and anywhere in the world. Whereas with a property, I can't do that, can I? It's a benefit, but it's also a danger because you can do silly things. One of the reasons that people have success in property is you can't do silly things. like if you go like oh no so disaster market's going to crash and you need to sell well then you need to fill out all these forms go and talk to an estate agent six months later you still need to be going no the market's going to crash most people are like take it somebody fucking take it you'll have that emotion for an afternoon and then like that's been that's been my downfall I'm like oh let me sell this and buy this and I'm like why did I sell that and buy that that was not the best decision but sometimes you get a nice timing like when the market crashed and created COVID and I bought loads of airlines but other times I'm like oh I'll buy this crypto and then it crashes and I'm like I probably should just help on to left in the ISO so yeah it does have its benefits and flaws but everyone always goes all the property guys just go bricks and mortar money in bricks and mortar it's the safest thing so I do see a lot of property maximalists out there so are you are you not concerned about a crash let's say let's say property prices drop 20 or 30 % tomorrow 30 % does that worry you that would not be good yeah because because by that point it's like well all your equity's gone at that point.

28:23Let's say you bought in the last couple of years, so you've only borrowed 75%. It's like, yeah, I mean, the logic still holds, like, if the market drops by that much, I can't see mortgage lenders calling in all the loans, which they might be entitled to do, but they're not going to, they don't want to own millions of properties. So it's like, at that scale, it's just like, if you're the only one defaulting, then you've got a problem. But if everyone's defaulting, the bank's got a problem. So, okay, well, you know, eventually over the years, it will come back and you just ride it out. But you still don't want to actually go through that experience.

28:58But if the air comes out a bit for a couple of years and so you have this real terms correction, that would be the best result for everyone because everyone talks about how unaffordable properties become, et cetera, et cetera. So if it just quietly becomes more affordable in the background relative to earnings without anyone really noticing, that's probably for the best. Quite a magic trick, wouldn't it? For prices to normalise, incomes to catch up, for us not to really lose much nominally on paper. Yeah. And for actually then a load of buyers to be like, oh, I can get involved in this and off the prices go again.

29:31It'd be like the perfect crash in a way. Absolutely, yeah. Last time we recorded, Tomei, and you were having some real dramas with your accountant. So how's that been going, mate? They're sacked. So drama sorted. They're a big corporate firm. They didn't really reply to my emails very quickly, like took a week or two at times. and they charged me way too much. I mean, I've got pretty simple taxes and yeah, they were charging me thousands. They saved me some money, but yeah, I had to move on. Slow and expensive. Pretty much, yeah. This is one of the reasons that we're really happy to be partnering with TaxApp.

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30:33If you need to file a self-assessment this year, give TaxApp a try. We've left a link in the description and use the code MONEY10 for 10 % off your first tax filing. That code is MONEY, M-O-N-E-Y 1-0. so mr carolet i hear you are a salesman elite salesman yes one of the best they say i've got a little bit of experience in the game yeah i could say you've done a few deals uh bill a bill what what would your compliance team say about you they will say that i am always nagging them and that um essentially i just have i have beef with compliance i love the team compliance slows down all my deals because every time i get to the finish line they've got to check documents kyc GDPR and it's just a nightmare it slows the deal down by like two three weeks it's always on both sides as well as sometimes it can be blocked on the other side exactly well that's where today's sponsor can help indeed Vanta helps companies of all sizes get secure and compliant fast and they stay that way they do it by automating compliance with over 35 security and privacy frameworks like SOC 2 ISO 27001 and HIPAA yeah all of them and this saves businesses so much time and money According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers save over half a million dollars a year in costs.

31:46Not bad. And they also help you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster, which is great because everybody hates filling out forms. If you're a business that needs to prove security and compliance, visit Vanta.com forward slash making money to sign up for a completely free demo today. That's Vanta.com forward slash making money. There's a link in the description though, so you can just click that. what we want to look at now is the investment piece if i took it all off you today so i want to hear a little bit about your journey how you got into it if i took it all off you today would you go the same way would you start with property i would um because for me it was a good gateway investment it's something that i was able to get enthusiastic about like some some people get enthusiastic about index funds i wasn't one of them and so but but it's like i i got i just sort fell into property in that I had savings, I had the ability to invest in something.

32:43Property is something that a lot of people in this country gravitate towards. And in the process of doing that, I just found it really fascinating and just got deeper and deeper into it. And that ended up opening me up to understanding a wider range of investments. What does your portfolio look like at the minute? So I started investing about 17 years ago. Started like most people do, just because it seemed like a good idea. Got a bit of money, what are you going to do? Started buying in London as close to where I lived as I could, because again, it's like the easiest thing to do. I know the area.

33:19Then as time went on, I started getting, well, two things happened. One is London suddenly got a lot more expensive. As you'll remember, it bounced back really quickly after 2008. And it's only that this doesn't look like value anymore. the rest of the country looks like much better value. So I got more comfortable going out to other cities. I've tried to, I've sort of tended to focus my portfolio on sort of like key cities. Like I like the East Midlands, I like Manchester and the North West. So I try not to just buy absolutely all over the place. But in practice, I don't manage any of it myself.

33:53I used to manage the ones in London myself, but now I don't. So it doesn't really matter where it So when I started, I was just buying like one bedroom flats in London because it was cheap and it was the easiest thing for me to do. I like having a bit of a variety. People get very religious about houses versus flats. Like people hate flats or like, oh no, houses too much hassle. I quite like having some of both. And recently, now I buy everything through my company because it's the easiest thing to do. Like we find investments for others. and so it's easiest to just kind of take my pick from what comes through.

34:27And it's not all of that. A lot of that tends to be off plan. So you do have to be careful when buying off plan. So if you're going and doing it. It just means before it's built. Exactly. For people who don't know. I used to sell them. I worked for a company called Night Knocks. We did a lot of developments in Manchester. So there are things, we've done a video on it. There are things you have to be aware of if you're doing it yourself. But so now that tends to, that's where I get my property to run. Some of them tend to be off plan. but I don't have strong opinions for it. It's hard to get diversification in property because you're not going to own hundreds.

34:59And so I try to get what I can. Do you think it's worth it now starting from nothing property investment in today's market? Over the long term, yes, I think so. But I'm aware that for a lot of people, it's not an option. Like you said, the capital you need to get involved is so high. Like you probably to get into property investment today you'd be looking at needing what at least 30 grand at least and that's a lot it's a lot so for many many people just aren't going to have that choice but if you but if you did it's like you just inherited a load of money then i wouldn't say yeah property's the only thing it has to be that but again it's just like you've got this you've got the advantage of being able to use leverage which introduces risk but also upside and so go yeah over a long enough period of time it works but i do think you need to be you need to be going into it seriously now in a way that you didn't when you could actually start to 10 years ago yeah so you mean do more research or yeah i mean a few things i suppose so like definite like definitely more research i used to it used to be like you know the dinner party landlord people talked about like you got people would like sort of see the house on the next street would come up for sale they go oh i've got a bit of money this seems like a good investment and they'll go and buy it and then they'll talk about it at dinner parties and the property market's going up and everyone's feeling really happy about themselves you you used to be able to do that but now because of the not just the amounts of money involved the tax situation's got a lot more complicated the legislation has got a lot more complicated i think it's now less appealing to just go and buy a property like when you're not planning to take it seriously i think if you're going to be doing it you need to be you need to be approaching it in a professional manner, even if you're not going to be doing it professionally.

36:49And ideally, you want to be, I think, building up, having the idea that you could build up a portfolio of properties over time. You might not be able to afford to go and buy multiple in the first year or two years, but we'll get to that point because then it's worth going through all the aggro. Because if you're going to go and buy, rather than going and taking 50 grand and putting it into an index fund or a whole group of index funds or a whole group of different asset classes until you're spreading your bets. If you're taking the whole 50 grand and putting it into one asset, you better be pretty sure it's going to be a good asset.

37:21So you need to be able to go and do the research. You need to make sure that you are complying with the many, many, many things you need to comply with. Even if you're using a letting agent, you're still ultimately responsible. So you need to know if they're doing what they're meant to be doing. So there's a lot to it. So I think it's like, if you're just going casually, it's a lot less attractive. But if you're going to be doing it to build a portfolio over time for the next 20 years, potentially to pass on, then it still makes sense. So do you think it's viable now, today, for people to just own one or two investment properties?

37:56I think it's viable. I think it's less appealing than it used to be, because there is more hassle that comes along with it. You're kind of, the tax situation forces you to make a decision at the start about whether you should buy individually or as a company. That in itself is a roadblock because you're like, I have to get this right and I don't really know. And then once you're into it, there's a lot of legislation. And I think there's a difference between, am I going to have one and that's it forever? Or one, but I reckon, you know, in another five years, I can get another. Another five years, I can get another.

38:27I think if it's going to be like, one and that's it forever. I'd question whether all the effort that you have to put into research and everything else is going to be worth it. Would you recommend anyone to, like for people just starting out first property, would you recommend they get any support, advice from anyone in particular? I think if you can, there's so much free information out there now, which there wasn't when I got started, which is great. The danger is there's lots of free information going, oh, it's easy, just do this, buy my course, et cetera. So I wouldn't pay for any education, mentorship, anything else, but use all the free stuff.

39:06That's great. And if you can find someone who you know who's done it before, then that's great. And then also you're going to end up working with a solicitor, probably working with a mortgage broker. If you're using a mortgage, I'd say you definitely should use a broker rather than trying to do it yourself. Maybe you'd want to get the property managed to start with. So use the knowledge of those people. If you use what you've learned from the free staff to then go out and find good people and pick the right people, then you can use their knowledge. And professionals are quite happy to share what they've learned.

39:40What do you see as the benefit there of a portfolio? So one unit versus 10? What economies of scale or what is happening in that growth that means that you think you need to plan for 10 almost? I wouldn't say necessarily plan for 10, but I think it's getting a return on effort. I suppose. Like if you learn everything that you need to learn and it's just for one, then I don't know. Do you think that your return is going to be that much higher than from an investment where you could just press a few buttons and it's done? Possibly not. And then also, if you do decide to buy it within a company rather than as an individual, because for some people that's a better tax position to be in, then there are costs that come with running that company.

40:22And so those costs are broadly the same whether you've got one or five. So there are some economies of scale, but it's mainly return on effort is the way I think about it. And maybe thinking about it from a professional perspective, like you say, if I had five properties, I'd definitely have them in a limited company. So you need to maybe think about that structure from the get-go rather than just buying another one in your personal name and then having issues tax-wise. Yeah, transferring from one to the other is expensive. It doesn't tend to work well, so you need to get it right. Because you're actually selling it to the business basically.

40:53Exactly. So do you start with a limited company or you start as an individual and then when you get more than one, you form a limited company? This is where it's helpful to know where you're going because it's different for everyone. We've done videos on it that try to do rules of thumb, but you can't say like, everyone should be doing this, everyone should be doing that. Because of tax bans and... Yeah, but if you go like, okay, I think that one day I'll probably want to have four, then if you can talk to your accountant about that and sort of like have that idea coming down the line, that might guide them one way rather than the other.

41:23I live in London. If I wanted to buy my first property, but I want to buy somewhere like Manchester, Newcastle, Durham, somewhere where it's going to be substantially cheaper. Yeah. Is that feasible? And if I want to buy it not to live in, is that complicated? And what do you think about it? So you'd be buying that as an investment. Yes. You wouldn't already own your own home? I wouldn't own my own, no. Okay. It's tricky. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's tricky because it's much harder to get a mortgage if you don't have a residential mortgage already, which is going to be a pretty major factor.

42:01But even if you said you weren't going to use a mortgage, you weren't going to buy it all in cash, then you could do it. Like in that case, we have clients and I hear from people all the time who will go and buy properties in areas that they've never lived in. And they might live hundreds of miles away, but they've gone through the research process. And you'd have to do more research. If you've grown up in a certain part of London, then you'll already know what's the good areas, what's the not so good areas. I have lived in up north. I went to uni there, Manchester, Durham. So I've spent time up there.

42:35I know the areas that I would be looking at. So it's not completely random. Yeah. So you're still starting from a place of some knowledge. You just need to build that knowledge up. How can you do that? Is it pure numbers or are you like driving the streets and taking a look? Because you never know places until you live there, right? Yeah, I think there's a few different layers to it. So you can start by just messing around on Rightmove and getting a feel for like, well, if you could just all look at it on a map and go, oh, well, it's more expensive here than here. Why is that? And start to build up a picture of those tools you can use to kind of look into the demographics of an area and stuff like that.

43:15Going on Street View tells you a lot. But then eventually, that can give you a pretty good grounding. Online communities, like if you put an area and plus Reddit that you'll often find stuff about it but then there comes a point where I think it's sensible to go there and just spend as much time get the vibe meet local agents letting agents I always think are a good source of info because like estate agents are always on the back of the positive they're normally trying to sell you something but I've in the past gone to letting agents and said I'm looking to buy something if I find something then I'll let it out through you it's really hard for them to get new business and so often they'll be willing to help So you just have to go through that process.

43:55You can start online. It normally ends by going and doing it in person. How you qualify in an area prior to Street View and getting into the area itself? How are you going? Okay, Derby, Nottingham, two places I've heard. You mentioned Manchester five, ten years ago. How are people? So I think there's a couple of different factors. Partly it's just like there are plenty of perfectly good places to invest. There's always going to be random reasons where you go for one or another. Like if it's easy to get to on the train and another place is really hard, you're probably going to go to the easy place.

44:26So you're not going to truly have the choice of the whole country. But then within certain areas, I'm sort of looking for things like you can go on Home Track, which is a website where you can sort of like, they compare different cities. You can see how fast cities are growing, like what they've done over time. You can look at like what they're, like what yields you're getting. So like obviously the return you're making on investment in London is super low at the moment. You don't necessarily want to be going to the place where they're the absolute highest because that can often not be a good sign either.

44:58But if you can find somewhere where it's just like, this is a quality investment, it's a growing area, there's investment going in. You could see why this area is good now, it's going to get better. There'll be plenty of my choice of tenants who I can rent to. and you can go and buy something that's quality and make a reasonable return on it, then that's the kind of area I'd be looking at. Define quality. What do you mean by that? Yeah, it's quality. It's like everyone's going to have their own ideas. Not a bad idea to think like, well, who would I want to rent this property to? And so like, well, is this the type of property where a working family is going to come in and go like, wow, this is great.

45:41It's a nice place. it's got something ideally something unique compared to other places around it because if you're just like competing with everything else then that's not so good like a bigger garden two parking spaces on the drive something like that exactly yeah some so something that something that elevates it or if you're buying in a development like is it the like we there's a place in derby that um well my co-host and i both invested in because like the nature of it is like it's the best investment in it's the best development in the best location and because of the planning laws around there, nothing else is going to get built around there.

46:13So feeling good about it. In your experience, what have been like the best types of tenants for your portfolio?

46:24It's really... You say you can definitely generalize, but then you're never going to quite... You kind of have to to filter down there, right? Yeah, you do. In every example, there's going to be someone on benefits that's a great tenant, there's going to be someone who's bad, there's going to be families that ruin homes. Students who put holes in the walls and students that are like nice and tidy and they never have any drama. As investors, we kind of have to make sweeping statements about types of people to narrow it down, don't we? Yeah, exactly. I'm always conscious about doing it because it's not fair.

46:53But as a general point, I've tried to get away from renting to students, partially because of that they tend, don't always take the best care of places, but also because they'll tend to only stay for a year or two max. and so you get more turnover. And obviously - It's more work for you. Yeah, exactly. So you want tenants to be staying as long as you possibly can. And so all else being equal, a family is going to stay somewhere longer than students are. If you rent a flat to a couple who are together, they're more likely to stay there for longer than two people sharing because that means that's two people who could go and get a boyfriend or whatever and they're moving on.

47:39This is all just general. And so those are the sort of things that I look at. I like to, where possible, just try to look for who's, who has, there's obviously no, there's no warning signs and they've got at least the potential to stay there for a long time. It tends to go with properties. I don't know why. Some I will forget my own and it's amazing. Others I'm hearing about all the time. If I know the postcode, that's a really bad sign. and it just you get issues I don't know why you can't you can try now you look back you can't predict oh this one I should have known he would have been a headache or like I shouldn't it's all just random yeah you could you could do your best so like if you if you go and buy like the absolute cheapest house in the cheapest area you're probably going to have it you're more likely to have issues and if you want to went and bought something luxury but even if you went and bought everything luxury you're going to have one or two of them that are a nightmare and you don't know why yeah I mean you could have a footballer who trashes the place couldn't you I mean at university the boys above me played cricket in their flat.

48:36And just literally the whole place was, like all the plaster ball was destroyed because it was all plaster ball and they were just smashing a cricket ball. Yeah, so - They used to set fire to our uni halls. They used to like put all sorts of things under each other's bedroom doors and just set fire to it. Like, yeah. I wouldn't be renting to students based on what we were like. Yeah, definitely wouldn't be renting to students. And then types of property. So thank you for the question on the tenant. The types of property and proximity. Are you thinking like, I want city center, I want the burbs, I want, you know, like, have you got, again, everything can work and we get those caveats.

49:09But just from you, like, what do you think? Yeah, my personal thing is I like city centers. I think that could just be personal bias because I like city centers myself. But you're always going to have lots of tenant demand in those places. You know, like the city center was written off. It was supposedly dead, but absolutely not. It's their back. Commuter location, like strong commuter locations. On a tram line, on a tram line tube. Exactly. Something like that. Yeah, so if you're looking at the tram in Manchester, Nottingham, somewhere like that, again, where you're going to get people who've got...

49:39We just call it fundamentals as a shorthand, like all the kind of stuff that people are going to want to live. Like if you're going out somewhere super rural, you're just not going to have the demand there. What you really want is you want to put a place up for rent and be deluged with applicants straight away, and then you can take your pick. And are you still actively buying at the moment? I bought a couple this year and I would keep on doing so. It's like I've got no aspiration to like have a gigantic portfolio. Property mogul. Yeah. It's just like, because every property brings incremental hassle.

50:11And so like - So you find a little bit more stress every time you get a new property. Yeah. Well, I've got the sort of systems in place to deal with it. And so I don't personally get involved anymore, but still, it's just like, it's just headspace. and I tell this story. I literally know someone who ended up owning 200 properties back in the days when you could do it with no money left in or whatever. And then he went bankrupt. I was like, but why did you get up to 200? It's like, oh, well, geez. I just didn't really have a target. I just couldn't stop. I could and so I kept on doing it. Well, it's that couple, the biggest landlord, a 170 million pound portfolio or something stupid.

50:50They owned like half a town, didn't they? Yeah. So I want to talk about your system. What does that look like? So the ultimate secret is having a PA. So having someone to deal with it. And this is where economies of scale come in. Virtual. Virtual, yeah. So even if you're working with letting agents who are managing everything for you, there's still going to be some kind of involvement needed from you, because they have a tendency to come to you and say, this happened, what do you think I should do about it? I'm paying you to do that, but all right. But there's always going to be something. There's always mortgage applications.

51:22There's always something going on. So having a PA to just like mine, some of them she manages directly, some of them she like is the point of contact for agents. And that just means that everything that she can deal with, she does deal with. I'll get a piece of paper in the post, I'll scan it in, it'll go into a folder, she'll deal with it. So just, I only end up doing, like I track my time for a while as an experiment to sort of see how much time I spend. Can I really say an hour? And I could, and it turned out the only things I was doing was making bank transfers and signing stuff. That was basically it.

51:58So that's like an extreme version of it. How long have you had a PA for? About 18 months. Oh, so you did the first like 16 years, 15 years? Yeah. And it got to a point where it's like, because I was using agents and it's just got to a point where it's just like, this is still, I don't know if things are being done properly. I'm assuming that unless I'm hearing about something, it's okay, but I don't really know. and so I just wanted to like no I want things done properly and I don't want my time being taken out Is that a UK based or international? She's in the UK so you can you can definitely do it internationally but I wanted someone who's who had experience doing this kind of thing before same time same time managed portfolios before so she's got so got the confidence to deal to deal with agents but if you're if you're not at that like you don't have to get someone like that if you just had someone I don't know you could have someone offshore pay them a lot less and get them to do some of the research for you to I don't know filter your emails for you but there's always going to be a level and you don't have to go all the way to the end do you have anything else in place or is it all the PA really so that's that's the that's the real secret but then there's there's other things you can do at a smaller level property wise so like if you it's just like basic stuff like if you've got if you've got a separate bank account set up you can you can use online bookkeeping software and like my PA goes and reconciles everything, but you could just do it yourself.

53:27But if you're using software, it's much quicker. You could give, if you're not going to be managing it yourself, picking the right agent is really important. I have no idea how you do that because I used to work with some terrible agents that looked like they were good on face value. Yeah, the general rule of thumb that doesn't always work is like local specialists are better than the chains. and if you've got a local, if you've got someone... Like a one-man band like that? Like a boutique? Yeah, so let's say you've got someone who started, but maybe they started investing themselves 20 years ago.

54:00They got up to 20, 30 properties themselves. They put all the systems in place for themselves. Then they started taking on other people's. Then maybe now they've got one or two people working for them. So they know the area backwards. They do everything properly. It's not fail safe, but if you can get someone like that rather than whoever like puts a leaflet through your door saying, oh, I've got tenants waiting. It's like a national company. Yeah. Do you invest in the stock market? Do you buy index funds? Yeah. How do you think about overexposure to property? It's a tough one. I think there's something to be said for investing in something that you understand.

54:38Yeah. And you can't be an expert in everything. Yeah. But then, of course, there is, you can think about having like a concentration risk, But then as we've seen in recent crashes, everything tends to be pretty correlated when things go wrong. So I don't know. I wouldn't be overly bothered. I think more comes down to tax wrappers. Like if there's an argument for using your rights for making pension contributions or this kind of thing, which obviously you can't do with property. So that might be if someone's just piling everything into property and ignoring those tax wrappers, you might want to have a conversation from that angle rather than going like, you know, you're only in property.

55:17therefore you're really exposed to one asset class, which you are, but yeah. You can't be overexposed on knowledge though, can you? Like you say, if you know it inside out, like, you know, it makes no sense for Tiger Woods to go play tennis because he's overexposed to golf. So how long have you been investing in the stock market? I can't do maths today. You can't count backwards. No. So if I started around about 2012, I started getting more interested in the stock market, like reading some books and like trying to pick individual shares. my first view went really well, which is annoying because it kind of gave me the idea that I was good at it.

55:50Later on, it turned out I wasn't. But then, yeah, just as time's gone on, I've just kind of come to realize that this index funds is the way to go. I think people have wrapped their head around the fact that index funds aren't a get-rich-quick scheme. I'm not sure that people have done that with property yet. No, completely agree. And I know that you have that conversation a lot. How would you frame property to people as an investment in terms because I think there's a lot of people think oh I'll flip a house make a hundred grand on the go it's just property it's hard to think of anything like less suited to be a get rich quick scheme because you need to be rich to start with like you need so much better so like you see people sort of like pitching all kinds of different ways oh no don't worry you can just go and rent someone else's property and then rent it to someone else oh maybe you can sort of I've seen all these adverts on YouTube you don't need a deposit for your house you can just do this and do that and Airbnb and rent someone else's house and all sorts of things Yeah.

56:45To finish this off, we'd just like to ask really, what are your key takeaways or lessons that you've learned from the last 17 years of investing in property? I think we touched on it earlier, but property is a long-term investment. And that's something that I didn't think about it going in. I wasn't going in trying to get rich quick, but I just didn't really think about it. But now it's like, it's just so obviously suited to compounding wealth. I've said in the past, like, property is a terrible way to make money. Like, trying to make money in property is so hard. You need so much money to get started.

57:22And it's like, if you're flipping, there's so much risk. There's so much to learn. It's just like, it's really ill-suited to making money. And you'll get people pushing it as an angle, because a lot of people like making money quickly. A lot of people like property. But it doesn't really work. But as something over the long term, it's great. And even just from doing it as long as I have, which isn't like crazy long, I've seen such a benefit from rents gradually going up, mortgage values being eroded. And it's not meant to be exciting. And if it is exciting, then it's normally the wrong type of exciting.

57:59So I love it when nothing happens for months on end. There's nothing wrong with getting into property because you love property and you kind of find it enjoyable. Because you need to, to be motivated to go through all the stuff to start with. But then I think it's best suited for something to have going on in the background rather than sort of going in there and trying to make it your primary thing. A lot of people go, I wish I could quit my job and go full time into property. It's just, how do you do that? It's so hard to do. Do you make more money from your businesses than you would say from the, because I think, you know, people call you a property investment.

58:36You're a property businessman, really, aren't you? yeah i like i am i am a property investor because i invest in property but i don't identify but i don't identify with that like it's not it's not how i think of myself it's like i've been in property like i've been talking about property for 10 years i love talking about it but even that's not just property it's i love talking about investment i love talking about like making positive changes in your life over time systems and yeah yeah and property is just like properties are way in to talking about that in the same way that you've got your way into talking about it is just coming at it from a different angle well that's what really gets me excited the parallels are the same and you know there's this thing of like i first discovered index funds i think oh these things can make me a millionaire and i do it for a while and i'm like oh no no i'm going to make me a millionaire and then this is going to compound my wealth over time yeah it's the exact same realization i think people are just looking for something aren't they you like you don't make money in investing you grow money for investing whatever you invest in So like get investing in autopilot and go and figure out how to make more.

59:37Exactly. Focus on the things that you've got leverage in or that you can control the levers, like making YouTube videos or even being really good at your job and getting a 10 % promotion so you can follow more into your professional, you know, your investment endeavors. Totally. All right. Nice one, mate. Well, thank you. Thank you.

1:00:00If you want a summary of this episode with all the links we mentioned, sign up to our newsletter using the link in the episode description. And do keep writing in. We love hearing from you. So send us a question or tell us what you want us to cover in this season at makingmoneyatkindling.media. Also, while you're at it, remember to subscribe and please leave us a review. This is not financial advice. The reason it's not financial advice is because it's not tailored to you. Like we say a lot on the podcast, investments can fall and rise. In fact, this is almost a guarantee. remember past performance is no guarantee of future results so your money is always at risk with investing also remember other fees may apply i'm damian jordan i'm tamina kowaloo this episode was recorded by jack hobbs and edited and produced by ruth edwards music is by felix taylor our marketing director is johnny hunter and it was all brought together by will stolerman